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allegate
10-21-2019, 11:21 AM
definitely real:

https://twitter.com/nineinchnails/status/1186316335275360261

Swykk
10-21-2019, 11:26 AM
Cool. CD people get fucked again. This has been my favorite band since 1994 so I’m not bitching here; I’d just love a physical release of what so far sounds like excellent score. How hard would it be to offer that option? It’s very frustrating.

cdm
10-21-2019, 11:34 AM
How hard would it be to offer that option?

It's not that it's hard...it's just that not enough people buy them, unfortunately.

Toadflax
10-21-2019, 11:39 AM
Cool. CD people get fucked again. This has been my favorite band since 1994 so I’m not bitching here; I’d just love a physical release of what so far sounds like excellent score. How hard would it be to offer that option? It’s very frustrating.


It's not that it's hard...it's just that not enough people buy them, unfortunately.

Yeah, it costs a certain amount just to design and produce each physical medium. If there's not enough demand for multiple media, they're only going to make one, and when Trent's involved, it's going to be vinyl.

Out of curiosity, @Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285), if NIN is your favorite band, and they've made a strong case for why they prefer their music to be experienced on vinyl, why haven't you embraced the medium?

paul_guyet
10-21-2019, 11:47 AM
It's not that it's hard...it's just that not enough people buy them, unfortunately.I'm trying to FINALLY move away from buying CDs when I'm already usually buying the vinyl and digital, so this helps. Often I end up just ripping the CDs anyway...which is pointless considering it's on digital as well.

ROFLRICK
10-21-2019, 11:52 AM
Cool. CD people get fucked again. This has been my favorite band since 1994 so Iím not bitching here; Iíd just love a physical release of what so far sounds like excellent score. How hard would it be to offer that option? Itís very frustrating.

This is the very thing I came to comment on. It's unfortunate.

I want to complain righteously that the lack of CDs is egregious, that I won't buy vinyl, that digital isn't good enough, but really now...

I have pre-ordered all three through Amazon, and I'm stoked. The music in the pilot was fantastic.

cdm
10-21-2019, 11:58 AM
Out of curiosity, @Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285), if NIN is your favorite band, and they've made a strong case for why they prefer their music to be experienced on vinyl, why haven't you embraced the medium?

In fairness, favorite band or not, there are some pretty significant entry barriers to the medium. Cost of the albums themselves, a decent player that won't ruin your collection, the rest of the setup to get the sound from your player to your ears. Storage considerations of the vinyl itself, a place to put your setup in your house. Not to mention it can be somewhat intimidating / overwhelming for some new to the medium. This isn't an argument against vinyl but I can understand why some haven't jumped in.

FULLMETAL
10-21-2019, 12:01 PM
Vinyl is great for the tactile experience, but if you're clumsy - fuck you.

Why they can't pull a "Welcome oblivion" (where the vinyl included a CD in an envelope) is beyond me.

Regardless, I love what I heard last night, but will wait to purchase since there aren't any exclusives the pre-order.

allegate
10-21-2019, 12:10 PM
In fairness, favorite band or not, there are some pretty significant entry barriers to the medium. Cost of the albums themselves, a decent player that won't ruin your collection, the rest of the setup to get the sound from your player to your ears. Storage considerations of the vinyl itself, a place to put your setup in your house. Not to mention it can be somewhat intimidating / overwhelming for some new to the medium. This isn't an argument against vinyl but I can understand why some haven't jumped in.
all of that plus I usually listen to music while driving or moving around so 95% of the time I have headphones in. Until there's a portable record player I'm way happier with CDs that I can rip or audio files I can download.

Senateguard33
10-21-2019, 12:11 PM
CDs just aren't in demand right now. Target carries a handful of best seller titles, Walmart has new releases and discounted old releases, and Best Buy has stopped carrying CDs in store all together.

Most people prefer digital, and the collectors that prefer a physical format generally lean towards vinyl.

Most can't tell the difference between CD quality, FLAC or a high quality mp3, so at this day and age the CD is widely considered a redundant format.

Swykk
10-21-2019, 12:17 PM
Yeah, it costs a certain amount just to design and produce each physical medium. If there's not enough demand for multiple media, they're only going to make one, and when Trent's involved, it's going to be vinyl.

Out of curiosity, @Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285), if NIN is your favorite band, and they've made a strong case for why they prefer their music to be experienced on vinyl, why haven't you embraced the medium?

I have spelled those reasons out on at least two occasions here. I’ll shorten it: space, my pre-existing collection, and hipsters’ “warmer sound” nonsensical rhetoric. I’m not interested in either conversion or arguing about which format is better or redundant.

Toadflax
10-21-2019, 12:20 PM
In fairness, favorite band or not, there are some pretty significant entry barriers to the medium. Cost of the albums themselves, a decent player that won't ruin your collection, the rest of the setup to get the sound from your player to your ears. Storage considerations of the vinyl itself, a place to put your setup in your house. Not to mention it can be somewhat intimidating / overwhelming for some new to the medium. This isn't an argument against vinyl but I can understand why some haven't jumped in.

Yeah, makes sense. I grew up buying 80% CDs, 15% cassettes, and 5% vinyl, so CD is definitely the medium of my formative years, but once NIN released their vinyl statement, I bought an affordable turntable and have been enjoying building and showing off my collection ever since.

I guess I just feel that with so many ways to consume music these days, focusing on one medium is bound to lead to disappointment. If you don't have a turntable, listen on streaming. If you don't have streaming, download it digitally. If you want to listen on a CD or iPod, burn/transfer the files over to one. If you want to own a physical copy of the thing, buy the vinyl, stick it on your wall, and listen to the music on streaming or a burned CD. If you want specifically to listen to it on CD and for the specific CD you put into your player to be specifically an official one and not a burned one you made yourself – and that music comes from an artist who has pretty much dismissed CDs as a medium – I don't know, it just feels like asking for too much?

Granted, I know the above scenario is exactly how we consumed music 20 years ago, but I think part of Trent's philosophy comes from the fact that putting music onto a phone or CD is so easy, so anyone can listen via those options regardless of how something is officially released. Vinyl, on the other hand, is something you can't really fake, so prioritizing a vinyl release makes the most sense.

Toadflax
10-21-2019, 12:43 PM
I have spelled those reasons out at least two occasions here. I’ll shorten it: space, my pre-existing collection, and hipsters’ “warmer sound” nonsensical rhetoric. I’m not interested in either conversion or arguing about which format is better or redundant.

Gotcha. I wasn't trying to start an argument about which is better – I don't have any strong feelings where that's concerned. Space makes total sense. I don't see how your pre-existing collection comes into play, though; it's not going anywhere. When I bought a turntable to start buying the new NIN vinyl in 2016, I also went back and completed my collection of the first 28 halos on CD.

Anyway, I don't want to get too off-topic, but I just find it surprising when people get frustrated by the lack of CD availability when it's quickly becoming the least popular medium out there.

cdm
10-21-2019, 01:53 PM
I love Trents ambitiousness and eagerness to make new music/ take on new products but at the same time I also wish he would just get all his ducks in a row and finish one project before taking on the next.

"I'd love to work on your ambitious story set in the world created by the most acclaimed graphic novel in history but I really have to get this Patriot's Day vinyl buttoned up." - not Trent Reznor, thankfully

TheBang
10-21-2019, 01:59 PM
I don't think some people understand how precipitous CD's decline has been. In the US last year, CD revenues declined 34% (https://www.riaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/RIAA-2018-Year-End-Music-Industry-Revenue-Report.pdf) to $698 million, its lowest level since 1986. If CD's continue their rate of decline, and vinyl continues its modest growth, vinyl revenues will surpass CD revenues next year.

davemuzik85
10-21-2019, 02:00 PM
I know, your right, I shouldn't complain but I wish his past two previous scores were released in the way watchmen is right now: physical product/digital released simultaneously.

Senateguard33
10-21-2019, 02:36 PM
"I'd love to work on your ambitious story set in the world created by the most acclaimed graphic novel in history but I really have to get this Patriot's Day vinyl buttoned up." - not Trent Reznor, thankfully

Patriot's Day and Quake vinyl releases will still happen, he did say "soon" and in NIN terms that's an estimate of anywhere from 30 days to 15 years.

katara
10-21-2019, 03:48 PM
Horrendously disappointed this is a vinyl-only release. No CD again. At least we're getting a digital option this time. Regardless, I'm boycotting this. £90 for this is insane, especially since TGWTDT OST on CD is only £16.30 currently on amazon.

cdm
10-21-2019, 05:40 PM
£90 for this is insane, especially since TGWTDT OST on CD is only £16.30 currently on amazon.

You're comparing three individual 180g vinyl releases to a 3 cd collecting dust in a warehouse since 2011?

Helpmeiaminhell
10-21-2019, 06:27 PM
Cool. CD people get fucked again. This has been my favorite band since 1994 so I’m not bitching here; I’d just love a physical release of what so far sounds like excellent score. How hard would it be to offer that option? It’s very frustrating.

Trent is too busy catering to hipsters with his all vinyl bullshit rule that he lives by. Why release a CD when you can release something on a format (vinyl) that was outdated and obsolete by 1979 and only brought back by revisionist hipsters......Trent seems to be oblivious that a lot of his fanbase would prefer physical format and would buy CD. I think Tool already proved CDs are still viable. If you are Taylor Swift or Teskashi 69 or Miley Cyrus and releasing disposable pop shit, then you cater to streaming. Big bands that have been around over 20 years still have a large fanbase that prefers Physical format. Unfortunately Trent is still listening to his suit friends from Apple Music who told him CDs are dead. They forgot to mention CDs are dead for pop singers/new hip hop artists....Not artists that have 20 years plus in the game..The kids man. The kids these days, they like to stream man...Guess what? The kids these days ain't listening to Nine Inch Nails or a fuckin 3 hour Trent Reznor instrumental film score.....Ask Tool if CDs are dead...Seems like they had some success selling CDs of their new album? Hmmmmm? Outsold the aryan princess T Swift if I remember correct


But this vinyl only release shit has been exhausting and tiring the last few years. Put out a fuckin CD. Even if its limited run. I GUARANTEE it will SELL OUT

cdm
10-21-2019, 06:40 PM
Holy fuck this thread got stupid fast.

BRoswell
10-21-2019, 07:01 PM
...Ask Tool if CDs are dead...

I mean, from the looks of all the Fear Inoculum CDs I saw sitting around in record stores this past weekend...

I collect CDs still, but it's mainly to get stuff that's not available in high quality online. I've seen the CDs for the EP trilogy in stores and I've passed on them every time because...well...I have high resolution digital files at home. What do I need a CD for? So I can stick it in with the rest of my CDs that never get played? At least vinyl makes some sense, even if I don't listen to/collect them. That's something that takes commitment. You have to say "I'm going to listen to this album front to back, because I can't just hit the shuffle button". The quality of the packaging is certainly superior to CDs too (for the most part). Yes, vinyl is kind of hipster-y, but I'm starting to feel that way about people who obsess over something not being available on CD too (same with cassettes).

imail724
10-21-2019, 07:18 PM
I mean, from the looks of all the Fear Inoculum CDs I saw sitting around in record stores this past weekend...Not to mention cd was the ONLY physical format they released it on. If there was a vinyl option at the same time as the CD I would be interested in seeing the sales comparisons

ltrandazzo
10-21-2019, 07:20 PM
I’ll allow two more posts recycling the same complaints about vinyl before I start moving comments. We have had this argument over and over again and the end result is the same. Keep it on topic about the score.

jhulud
10-21-2019, 08:15 PM
Well. That escalated quickly. :p

Haysey_Draws
10-22-2019, 02:50 AM
Soooo tempted to get the vinyls, but like all the other vinyls i have it'll just be for the artwork and they'll just gather dust under my bed as i don't have a vinyl player (or even the space FOR a player)...GAAAAAH!

katara
10-22-2019, 03:19 AM
You're comparing three individual 180g vinyl releases to a 3 cd collecting dust in a warehouse since 2011?
Yes, I am. CD is a much cheaper format monetarily. It wan't much more expensive than this when it was released.

In addition, CD quality is much better and the size is more convenient. Can't put a frisbee-sized record in my pocket. Vinyls often have bad presses, so it's a toss-up as to whether you're actually going to get something that sounds good. Deterioration is also an issue.

Only thing going for vinyl is large artwork. 'Warm' sound, my arse.

Edit: £90 is $115 US. Imagine paying over a hundred bucks for the regular edition of a new album! It's not even a deluxe package...

Tom
10-22-2019, 03:39 AM
I'd understand all this grumbling if it was a vinyl-only release, but it isn't! They're also releasing files. Literally every argument that I've seen above in favour of CDs and against vinyl could be made more compellingly in favour of files against CDs (cheaper, better quality, take up less space). So if you think those arguments against vinyl are compelling (I don't, but whatever) then you're in luck, since files beat CDs on all of those fronts and the files are being released!

katara
10-22-2019, 04:26 AM
I'd understand all this grumbling if it was a vinyl-only release, but it isn't! They're also releasing files. Literally every argument that I've seen above in favour of CDs and against vinyl could be made more compellingly in favour of files against CDs (cheaper, better quality, take up less space). So if you think those arguments against vinyl are compelling (I don't, but whatever) then you're in luck, since files beat CDs on all of those fronts and the files are being released!
When you own an album physically, it's something tangible you actually own in meat space, while a file just sort of floats in a virtual one. Psychologically, files on a computer feel throwaway. One can download 100 albums and feel no connection to them because there is no connection; it's just words and images on a flat screen rather than a printed object.

This whole conversation has come up every time a new TRAR/NIN release happens now, ever since TR's VINYL MISSION STATEMENT bullshit. It fucking sucks. Trent, you can do better for your fanbase than this.

As for Watchmen, I'm out. Will not buy. This goes for any future release from the band until they sort this mess.

Reznor2112
10-22-2019, 07:30 AM
Patriot's Day and Quake vinyl releases will still happen, he did say "soon" and in NIN terms that's an estimate of anywhere from 30 days to 15 years.

Wouldnt bank on it -- I reached out to Lakeshore multiple times since Patriots Day came out and they finally said that "it is out of our hands at this point"

Either meaning, it aint happening...or Trent is moving it to a different company. Downside is, the further we get away from the release date of Patriots Day and Bird Box, the less relevant Trent will see a physical release being. Case#27557: The Social Network has been out of print on vinyl since 2012...and the original pressing is famous for being such a shitty pressing and yet there has been ZERO talks or mention of a repress from Trent and Co.

I would put the following in the Tension2013 blu-ray bin:
Bird Box extended vinyl
Patriots Day vinyl
Gone Girl Outtakes vinyl

paul_guyet
10-22-2019, 08:18 AM
I wonder how much of the 'Watchmen' score was going to be on the 'Bird Box' extended release.

sonic_discord
10-22-2019, 09:17 AM
When you own an album physically, it's something tangible you actually own in meat space, while a file just sort of floats in a virtual one.

Ha!


Psychologically, files on a computer feel throwaway. One can download 100 albums and feel no connection to them because there is no connection; it's just words and images on a flat screen rather than a printed object.

This whole conversation has come up every time a new TRAR/NIN release happens now, ever since TR's VINYL MISSION STATEMENT bullshit. It fucking sucks. Trent, you can do better for your fanbase than this.

I respectfully disagree. While I do prefer to own physical copies in one form or another myself (I’m with you there), it is absolutely still possible to have a connection with music in a digital state. I enjoy this connection on a daily basis. Music transcends the format though which it’s experienced. Do you still buy every TV show and movie you watch in physical formats? Because if you stream those, then are you not making a connection with those as well? When you see a film in the theater or hear a song on the radio, is there no connection there?? Man, they announce a monstrous 3-volume score and this thread is 75% bitching. No wonder he doesn’t come here anymore.


As for Watchmen, I'm out. Will not buy. This goes for any future release from the band until they sort this mess.

I don’t think anything is changing anytime in the near future, so I guess you’re done with them altogether. They’re not going to notice your pointless boycott, though, sorry. I hope you change your mind and at least listen to the digital release because it seems clear to me that there won’t be any more CD releases unless it’s a major full-length NIN release.

eluus
10-22-2019, 09:26 AM
Yes, I am. CD is a much cheaper format monetarily. It wan't much more expensive than this when it was released.

In addition, CD quality is much better and the size is more convenient. Can't put a frisbee-sized record in my pocket. Vinyls often have bad presses, so it's a toss-up as to whether you're actually going to get something that sounds good. Deterioration is also an issue.

Only thing going for vinyl is large artwork. 'Warm' sound, my arse.

Edit: £90 is $115 US. Imagine paying over a hundred bucks for the regular edition of a new album! It's not even a deluxe package...

I agree with that. Here in France, The Glowing Man by Swans is 28€ ($31) for three vinyls. And I remember buying Inni by Sigur Ros for almost the same and it was a three vinyls, two CD and one DVD !
£90 is fucking expensive.

cdm
10-22-2019, 09:36 AM
Here in France, The Glowing Man by Swans is 28€ ($31) for three vinyls.

You do realize that three 140g LPs packaged together and released at the same time isn't the same as three separate 180g releases each requiring its own packaging, distribution?

eluus
10-22-2019, 09:42 AM
You do realize that three 140g LPs packaged together and released at the same time isn't the same as three separate 180g releases each requiring its own packaging, distribution?

Maybe, MAYBE it was possible to create just one pack and not three separated LPs ?
Sometimes I wonder if Trent just see us as piggy bank.

cdm
10-22-2019, 10:04 AM
Maybe, MAYBE it was possible to create just one pack and not three separated LPs ?
Sometimes I wonder if Trent just see us as piggy bank.

Or maybe, MAYBE every single fucking packaging / media / distribution scenario will have some segment of the fanbase bitching and moaning like petulant children about decision X and decision Y.

eluus
10-22-2019, 10:08 AM
Yes, it's a very adult way of debate. Go on, champ

cdm
10-22-2019, 10:13 AM
Yes, it's a very adult way of debate. Go on, champ

Have you scrolled up thread?

allegate
10-22-2019, 11:50 AM
Maybe, MAYBE it was possible to create just one pack and not three separated LPs ?
Sometimes I wonder if Trent just see us as piggy bank.
Because HBO has nothing to say in this at all.

spahn
10-22-2019, 12:31 PM
Maybe, MAYBE it was possible to create just one pack and not three separated LPs ?
Sometimes I wonder if Trent just see us as piggy bank..

honestly, i kind of like the staggered releases through Amazon. For one, i don't get hit with one large payment. Secondly, I don't know how bundling into one large pack or 3 separate packs makes a difference to the total cost of the product. I don't think you were going to get 3 LPs for $49.99.

Helpmeiaminhell
10-23-2019, 12:24 PM
I have every NIN score and have never watched any of the movies or tv shows they are for (outside of Social Network and Gone Girl which I watched because I wanted to see the movie, not because of the score) I could give a shit about Watchmen or Bird Box or Patriots Day or mid90s or Vietnam as movies/tv shows/documentaries etc. I consider each score basically an instrumental NIN album and 100% separate them from whatever film/tv show they are a part of.

And to the dude talking about how disc rot is a problem on CDs...I have owned over 5,000 CDs since 1989....I have never had one rot.....I have never had one CDR go bad...My Beastie Boys 'License To Ill' CD which I bought on Halloween 1989 as an 8 year old still plays perfect to this day. You treat your CDs right and they will treat you right

jmtd
10-23-2019, 01:49 PM
Iíve definitely got rot on CR-rs but Iíve never seen it in silver CDs

jimthiscity
10-23-2019, 09:59 PM
i would just like to say:

it is extremely likely that trent reznor will never release another CD again. you can either get over it now or spend the next decade complaining, but that's not gonna change anything.

simonn
10-24-2019, 01:37 AM
i would just like to say:

it is extremely likely that trent reznor will never release another CD again. you can either get over it now or spend the next decade complaining, but that's not gonna change anything.

I disagree. The trilogy was released on CD. This is much more niche.

I see the sax has made another appearance on the end credits, very nice!

Max
10-27-2019, 12:28 PM
Man, people will gripe about whatever Trent does. As an artist, I say charge what you want and release how you want and let people take it or leave it. This isnít the golden days of music, where everyone is getting millions for nothing. Notice how there arenít any big-budget music videos anymore. There is a reason. Physical media and merch and tours and soundtracks are how you pay the bills and even thatís tough. I am HAPPY to pay money to keep my favorite artists focusing on their art instead of how they are going to pay the bills. Happy. Recently I was begging Saul Williams to release his new album on vinyl so I could fork over some cash to him and see him able to create more. I love what we get for the money we pay to great artists. Art is such a key part of my life and i would rather these guys get my money than Jeff Bezos or Zuckerberg or Trump or whatever other greedy a-hole is vacuuming up all the wealth.

Merriweather
11-03-2019, 03:12 PM
No download code? Did I just spend $50 on something Iíll have no means of listening to?

Hooray for the return of vinyl!

ScreamingSlave
11-03-2019, 03:26 PM
No download code? Did I just spend $50 on something Iíll have no means of listening to?

Hooray for the return of vinyl!There was no download code included the only way to listen is on vinyl I'm hoping Trent will add the option to download at some point this may have been an oversight.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Ascender
11-03-2019, 03:39 PM
There's quite a few bands now taking the same approach Trent did years ago, where they're wanting fans to buy direct from their official store and its often the only way to get signed LPs and the like. But a common downside with this seems to be they all seem utterly unable to get new releases to you for the day of release. I know, its a first world problem, but surely they can see there's a reason why people buy stuff from places like Amazon and it isn't just because of price.

butter_hole
11-03-2019, 04:52 PM
No download code? Did I just spend $50 on something I’ll have no means of listening to?

Hooray for the return of vinyl!
I dare say an official announcement / release / streaming option is a day or so away.

Merriweather
11-03-2019, 04:52 PM
There was no download code included the only way to listen is on vinyl I'm hoping Trent will add the option to download at some point this may have been an oversight.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Iím sure there will be an option to download FLAC/wav/mp3 files from NIN.com as well as iTunes and Amazon or wherever you like to buy your digital music. And of course, streaming.

Iím happy to support the artist, but having to do so twice just to get something to listen to is very disappointing. Unless the person who already received the record just got a bad copy.

If weíve gone to vinyl as the preferred format, but with no digital files are included, that seems like a step backwards.

richardp
11-03-2019, 04:55 PM
No download code? Did I just spend $50 on something I’ll have no means of listening to?

Hooray for the return of vinyl!

Lolol you could, you know, listen to the record?

Merriweather
11-03-2019, 04:57 PM
Lolol you could, you know, listen to the record?

Donít have a turntable, and no real plans to buy one at this stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

richardp
11-03-2019, 05:31 PM
Don’t have a turntable, and no real plans to buy one at this stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why on earth would you spend $50 on records you had no intentions of listening to, and then complain when you didn't get a download code insert, when you could just spend $10 on a digital download, get exactly what you want immediately, and not be stuck with a 12x12 piece of cardboard/wax that is absolutely useless to you?

cdm
11-03-2019, 05:37 PM
Why on earth would you spend $50 on records you had no intentions of listening to, and then complain when you didn't get a download code insert, when you could just spend $10 on a digital download, get exactly what you want immediately, and not be stuck with a 12x12 piece of cardboard/wax that is absolutely useless to you?

i did the same thing assuming there’d be a download code, ya know, like every other vinyl release.

Merriweather
11-03-2019, 05:47 PM
i did the same thing assuming thereíd be a download code, ya know, like every other vinyl release.

Same

katara
11-04-2019, 02:16 AM
Why on earth would you spend $50 on records you had no intentions of listening to, and then complain when you didn't get a download code insert, when you could just spend $10 on a digital download, get exactly what you want immediately, and not be stuck with a 12x12 piece of cardboard/wax that is absolutely useless to you?
Probably because it's the only means by which to get it on physical media. Charging premium prices for an album is ludicrous if there's not even a link to some mp3s included. A digital version is expected nowadays.

Very glad I didn't buy this.

Now, where's the CD? Otherwise, I'll have to listen to this on my "fucking phone", Trent. On my "fucking phone".

Tom
11-04-2019, 03:37 AM
Now, where's the CD? Otherwise, I'll have to listen to this on my "fucking phone", Trent. On my "fucking phone".
But I thought that you were boycotting it? ;)

Jokes aside, if you want to get more out of file-based audio, get yourself a Raspberry Pi (or equivalent) and a DAC board (around £30), and hook it up to whatever your CD player is hooked up to. It'll sound a lot better than your phone (and probably your CD player).

Haysey_Draws
11-04-2019, 04:38 AM
Kinda glad i didn't plump for the records now if they don't come with downloads (they still looks pretty though) ROLL ON DIGITAL DOWNLOAD DAY!

StockAvuryah
11-04-2019, 04:40 AM
Don’t have a turntable, and no real plans to buy one at this stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

that’s pretty funny

time to make plans now right ?

Don’t worry, either listen to your vinyl or wait like the rest of the people

"DIGITAL AND WIDER IN-STORE VINYL RELEASE FOR EACH VOLUME WILL BE AVAILABLE SHORTLY AFTER THE ABOVE DATES."

Magnetic
11-04-2019, 04:56 AM
"SHORTLY AFTER"

Is that "soon?"

Tom
11-04-2019, 05:05 AM
This Friday - soon enough.

Merriweather
11-04-2019, 05:19 AM
thatís pretty funny

time to make plans now right ?

Donít worry, either listen to your vinyl or wait like the rest of the people

"DIGITAL AND WIDER IN-STORE VINYL RELEASE FOR EACH VOLUME WILL BE AVAILABLE SHORTLY AFTER THE ABOVE DATES."




Could have done that after plunking down money on Deviations/the Definitive Editions. But, nope. Didnít really matter since those came with download codes which I foolishly thought were the norm these days.

cdm
11-04-2019, 05:57 AM
Probably because it's the only means by which to get it on physical media.

Exactly. Through the Target deal i got these for $17 each. I'd be paying at least $9-11 for the digitals when they finally arrive so for a few more bucks, for me, it makes sense to get the vinyl with the digital download to have the thing and the digital to listen. 1. I'd paid for the digital anyway 2. I have the vinyl if / when I get a record player (which is somewhat likely) 3. avoid an out-of-print situation down the road 4. support the artist and a non-conventional way to present material.

Now, that whole plan is shot down with the lack of digital code but I guess with the concept that this is released in the Watchmen universe it does make sense and I have to begrudgingly appreciate their attention to detail.

And say there had been a cd...that would have sat on my shelf just the same because, like the vinyl (currently), I have no fucking way to play the thing.

buckaroo
11-04-2019, 06:52 AM
The issue I have with this release so far is more about the ambiguity and less about the cost. Like others on here I understand the whole vinyl "thing." However, as an adult, listening to music on vinyl is just extremely inconvenient. I have ordered all the releases on vinyl and might listen to them, but it is really unlikely. I typically look through the vinyl artwork and listen to the digital version on my phone (I have kids, a job that requires travel, etc.). I am never going to pack up turntables and records to bring on a 10 hour flight, in the car or listen in a hotel which is where most of my listening is done these days.

After the episode last night I was pretty disappointed actually. I was expecting some sort of big reveal that would have made all this secrecy behind the music make more sense. Instead it was just another episode... I have no idea why the artwork and track listing was made unavailable or why the digital release date is different and not announced (actual date).

Oh well, not the end of the world, just sort of a weird release that seems kind of like double dipping (being in-universe seems like a stretch and if so, they could have said specifically that the download was a separate purchase)

Ascender
11-04-2019, 07:43 AM
And while we're on the subject, who agreed to start releasing new music on a Friday! Its Monday. Its always been Monday.

cdm
11-04-2019, 07:55 AM
Here in the US it was typically Tuesday. The industry switched to Friday across all markets for consistency in an attempt to combat piracy. <eyeroll>

Ascender
11-04-2019, 07:58 AM
Here in the US it was typically Tuesday. The industry switched to Friday across all markets for consistency in an attempt to combat piracy. <eyeroll>

I almost mentioned that as I remember about 20 years ago going to NY and being all excited about going to Tower Records on the Monday morning to buy a shedload of stuff and discovering I'd have to come back the next day!

zecho
11-04-2019, 08:01 AM
And while we're on the subject, who agreed to start releasing new music on a Friday! Its Monday. Its always been Monday.

It actually used to be Tuesday until 2015, and it's been Friday ever since.

cdm
11-04-2019, 10:32 AM
Well this card that came with the early version certainly makes it sound like there are limited and “regular” versions. Given that Amazon hasn’t been coming through 100% on preorders, not sure what to make of this...

https://twitter.com/scottwamplerbmd/status/1191376989325791232?s=21

He also notes he received a press copy and another user said this note wasn't enclosed in the Amazon-shipped relsease. I guess we have to wait to see what we get from Target?

bcbishop
11-04-2019, 10:34 AM
Yep. Hoping that it’s the non-vinyl/streaming editions that are the regular ones, and retail vinyl is the same packaging.

cdm
11-04-2019, 10:49 AM
Yep. Hoping that it’s the non-vinyl/streaming editions that are the regular ones, and retail vinyl is the same packaging.

This makes sense. Digital with actual tracklisting and Watchman themed artwork.

ScreamingSlave
11-04-2019, 10:55 AM
I am actually a bit upset i am probably going to have to double dip to get my digital copy hoping Trent and Atticus should and I hope will remedy this with the upcoming Vinyl releases it should be a no brainier that a download card is included at a cost of over 20$ for each vinyl especially for those that pre-ordered the date it launched.

ltrandazzo
11-04-2019, 08:32 PM
Right, so as someone who's been using this board for the last two years, I am sick and tired of every release thread from TR + AR being polluted with the same complaints on repeat about the vinyl initiative that they've been on so, here's your thread for everytime someone wants to derail the Watchmen thread, the Deviations thread, the upcoming reissue threads for With Teeth, Year Zero and The Slip, the potential other releases, etc.

I'm sick of it. When each of you post in a release thread with these same gripes, you derail the actual conversation and make it no better than the NIN facebook page. Enjoy your thread, keep your gripes out of the other threads, thanks, bye.

sonic_discord
11-05-2019, 09:59 AM
I just want to say that I LOVE the name of this thread. That is all.

SM Rollinger
11-05-2019, 10:30 AM
Maybe a little more mature name for this thread please? I think this is a valid concern, as someone who doesn't buy much vinyl, I don't even both with the score releases anymore. iMO this vinyl initiative has done more harm than good.

BRoswell
11-05-2019, 10:55 AM
Show of hands: how many people who are complaining about vinyl releases actually listen to their CDs on a regular basis outside of their cars? I guarantee the majority of you listen to digital files for the most part, and if that's the case, what's wrong with buying the digital version?

I like physical media, by the way, and I still buy CDs if something isn't available to purchase in high quality online, but the fact that they've made better than CD quality downloads available makes buying CD versions pointless.

paul_guyet
11-05-2019, 12:20 PM
Show of hands: how many people who are complaining about vinyl releases actually listen to their CDs on a regular basis outside of their cars? I guarantee the majority of you listen to digital files for the most part, and if that's the case, what's wrong with buying the digital version?

I like physical media, by the way, and I still buy CDs if something isn't available to purchase in high quality online, but the fact that they've made better than CD quality downloads available makes buying CD versions pointless.I've been trying to buy less CDs actually. I usually end up ripping them the moment I get them and...well, that seems redundant with the proliferation of digital. I buy vinyl for the artwork and the ritual (for lack of a better term) and digital for the convenience. I think I'd be fine if CDs went away.

Toadflax
11-05-2019, 01:34 PM
Show of hands: how many people who are complaining about vinyl releases actually listen to their CDs on a regular basis outside of their cars? I guarantee the majority of you listen to digital files for the most part, and if that's the case, what's wrong with buying the digital version?

I like physical media, by the way, and I still buy CDs if something isn't available to purchase in high quality online, but the fact that they've made better than CD quality downloads available makes buying CD versions pointless.

I also get surprised to hear people say they want CDs because they listen in their cars. For one, burning a CD takes like two minutes, so if all you have is a CD player in your car, why not just burn anything you want to listen to that isn't on CD? Especially if you buy CDs regularly, then it should only be a small number of releases you'd have to do this with.

Beyond that, though, how many people these days have a car without an auxiliary input? Putting mp3's on an iPod or smartphone or just using a streaming app (for those who have an account) are all super easy solutions.

I also like physical media and enjoy collecting it, but I just think it's weird that with so many ways to consume music these days, people get so annoyed that one specific medium is dying out and not supported 100% of the time.

ltrandazzo
11-05-2019, 04:00 PM
Maybe a little more mature name for this thread please? I think this is a valid concern, as someone who doesn't buy much vinyl, I don't even both with the score releases anymore. iMO this vinyl initiative has done more harm than good.

This was a valid concern in 2017 when it appeared the album reissues were just getting vinyl releases before it was confirmed we were getting digital files with them, both ahead of shipment and on a download card with shipment. The trilogy was released digitally and on CD as well.

The score releases aren't applicable to this complaint because Before The Flood was digital, Patriots Day was digital, Vietnam War was digital, the Halloween cover was digital, Juno hasn't even been released on vinyl and neither has Mid-90s or Bird Box even though Bird Box has had a physical release teased. So, Watchmen is the first one to be vinyl-only AT FIRST and even then, likely at the most, folks will be waiting until after the season concludes and HBO pushes the digital album on every platform. Right now, to enjoy the soundtrack, you have to have a record player. At the most, you have to wait roughly six weeks to hear this legitimately.

But every single time, there's constant whining about the vinyl thing and it derails every thread, so here's the thread because I've put up with two years of this shit. I want these threads to involve every other aspect around the music and other things, not about how we're all bitching about vinyl.

botley
11-05-2019, 04:27 PM
I think this is a valid concern, as someone who doesn't buy much vinyl, I don't even both with the score releases anymore. iMO this vinyl initiative has done more harm than good.
So don't buy it.

Toadflax
11-05-2019, 05:50 PM
iMO this vinyl initiative has done more harm than good.

You're stating your opinion but about something that has actual numbers attached. If artists were making significantly less money by only releasing on vinyl/digital, then they wouldn't do it that way.

Ascender
11-06-2019, 04:42 AM
I boxed-up my large CD collection years ago and just ripped everything in to a convenient format which I can listen-to on any device I want, anywhere. I know there's a trade-off in audio quality, but convenience far outweighs that factor for me. I do recognise just how good stuff can sound when listened-to on very nice kit, but the various speakers and headphones I have sound more than OK to me.

I did start buying vinyl a few years ago though, but only for some artists like NIN and Trent. Some new releases from my favourite artists, I'll buy on vinyl now and I have started buying some historic stuff, but its a slippery slope!

Do I sit down and listen to vinyl every day? Nope. Sometimes a week will go by when I've not listened to vinyl, but I'll have music on for the majority of the day wherever I am.

I must have 10,000 or so CDs in the loft, but I can't remember the last time I bought one. For that format, I much prefer using streaming services or my own digital files. And say what you will about Trent's "mission statement", but it really chimed with me and I really do like sitting down, putting headphones on and listening to an album on vinyl.

I've no doubt vinyl is making some money for artists - its probably a good margin but not big quantity. The upside to the fans is that you'll often be able to buy signed copies direct from them, often nice limited editions too - which are just nice things to own - getting back to the collectible side of things.

paul_guyet
11-06-2019, 04:47 PM
Well, it's out on digital.

...

Can we have a thread where I can bitch about it not being out on cassette?

jmtd
11-07-2019, 04:45 PM
Now I guess we can moan about lack of lossless options or not being able to buy it on nin.com digitally.

Edit: so I jumped back into the main thread thinking itíll be all music appreciation after ltrandazzo went on a clean up rampage but no itís all complaining about shipping delays, cost and packaging damage. Why canít we have nice things!

cdm
11-07-2019, 05:18 PM
Edit: so I jumped back into the main thread thinking it’ll be all music appreciation after @ltrandazzo (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3) went on a clean up rampage but no it’s all complaining about shipping delays, cost and packaging damage. Why can’t we have nice things!

there’s plenty of music appreciation in there. Feel free to chime in.

katara
11-08-2019, 03:43 PM
Show of hands: how many people who are complaining about vinyl releases actually listen to their CDs on a regular basis outside of their cars? I guarantee the majority of you listen to digital files for the most part, and if that's the case, what's wrong with buying the digital version?
Yes, all the time, and I don't own a car.

The issue I have with digital releases is that it feels so throwaway. There's no hard copy to make backups from, then there's the worry of the digital service shutting down, or my memory getting worse and passwords forgotten, hard drive crashes, etc. I still have CDs from the '80s that have almost no wear on them and play perfectly.

I will never pay for a digital copy of an album. If you want me to pay for an mp3, give me a physical object that sounds just as good if not better along with it.

Swykk
11-08-2019, 04:59 PM
Show of hands: how many people who are complaining about vinyl releases actually listen to their CDs on a regular basis outside of their cars? I guarantee the majority of you listen to digital files for the most part, and if that's the case, what's wrong with buying the digital version?

I like physical media (I love my dvds and blu rays too), by the way, and I still buy CDs if something isn't available to purchase in high quality online, but the fact that they've made better than CD quality downloads available makes buying CD versions pointless.

I’ve got no problem buying the digital version; in fact, I did. I like physical media. I have every available NIN release on CD. I’m not going to go over why I don’t like vinyl but this thread title sucks. Must be rad to get what you want on your outdated format because TR happens to like it. Congrats? The high horse act is what doesn’t really make sense from you guys. TR released the trilogy on CD and it obviously sold so there’s zero reason not to put out Deviations and Watchmen on CD. Also, Tool has proved CDs will move. It just doesn’t make sense but okay, we’re babies (but you’d all be doing the exact same thing if the shoe was on the other foot).

BRoswell
11-08-2019, 05:30 PM
If you want me to pay for an mp3, give me a physical object that sounds just as good if not better along with it.

What about the hi-res WAV files that have been made available with previous releases?


Must be rad to get what you want on your outdated format because TR happens to like it.

It's not just because he likes it. It's because vinyl sells more than CDs now, and unless you've got some big names on there, film soundtracks and scores don't sell incredibly well either.


TR released the trilogy on CD and it obviously sold so there’s zero reason not to put out Deviations and Watchmen on CD.

Judging from all the trilogy CDs I've seen still sitting around in record stores, I would say it hasn't sold THAT well. Hell, every time I see them and am tempted to buy them, I hold off because I have the hi-res files at home.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-08-2019, 06:38 PM
I think its super duper rad that vinyl is making a huge comeback. I also fully agree with Trent releasing music on vinyl and not CD anymore. Why release it on a superior audio format like CD when you can listen to the cool clean *CLICK* *CLICK* *POP* *CLICK* of vinyl...It illuminates the listening experience man..Like when you feel the vinyl in your hands and caress the sleeve and just sit back and let your record player do the work. *CLICK* *CLICK* *POP*....So much better than a crystal clear sounding CD.....Its just so stupid to release your art on a superior format when you can release it on an outdated format that was rendered obsolete by 1983. I think movie studios should follow Trent's lead. Why release movies on blu ray or 4KHD anymore when you can release them on VHS and Betamax instead?

BRoswell
11-08-2019, 11:44 PM
I think its super duper rad that vinyl is making a huge comeback. I also fully agree with Trent releasing music on vinyl and not CD anymore. Why release it on a superior audio format like CD when you can listen to the cool clean *CLICK* *CLICK* *POP* *CLICK* of vinyl...It illuminates the listening experience man..Like when you feel the vinyl in your hands and caress the sleeve and just sit back and let your record player do the work. *CLICK* *CLICK* *POP*....So much better than a crystal clear sounding CD.....Its just so stupid to release your art on a superior format when you can release it on an outdated format that was rendered obsolete by 1983. I think movie studios should follow Trent's lead. Why release movies on blu ray or 4KHD anymore when you can release them on VHS and Betamax instead?

If you guys don't want it to be called the "Poopy Diaper Vinyl Thread", don't make posts like this.

Also, I'm not a vinyl fanatic, but even I know that most records don't sound like that.

Tom
11-09-2019, 01:57 AM
You guys complaining that vinyl is an out of date format seem to be missing the point that - when it comes to both convenience and sound quality - CDs have been long since been surpassed by files. CDs are the out of date format. You don't need to spend much to build a digital media player that will be easier to use and will sound better than any of your old CD players (I could start a thread about this if anyone's interested). I don't really understand the concerns about files being 'throwaway' - all I really care about is the experience of listening to the music, and files offer the better experience (better than CD anyway). There are plenty of reasons to dislike vinyl - I love it myself, but I can easily understand why someone wouldn't. I keep it around because, with all of its compromises, it still offers something that digital formats don't and never have - to that extent it's not out of date at all. But CDs offer nothing that isn't done better by files, unless you also like having a physical thing to caress. But then surely the best thing to do would be to get the files for listening and get the vinyl for caressing - a vinyl package is a much nicer thing than a CD - CDs don't look good on your wall. CDs are done - they lose on sound and convenience to files, and they lose on physical-thinghood to vinyl. They're in a similar position to cassettes in the 90s.

Merriweather
11-09-2019, 10:43 AM
I think the issue is not necessarily that people are dead set on having a CD copy. Itís more that they presumed buying the vinyl was a way to get the digital files. That was certainly my assumption. I was happy to buy the physical thing I would look at a couple times and file away. If I had a turntable I would probably listen to the record once or twice and then just rely on the digital files because thatís more convenient in this day and age.

Forcing a double dip is a backwards move in my opinion.

If you love your vinyl records, fine. I just find the whole trend to be a bit of gate keeping.

SchwarzerAbt
11-09-2019, 10:44 AM
Based on the title this should also be the "oh no, I ordered a vinyl on the internet and it came all damaged" thread.

Or am I wrong? These complains cluster every thread at least as much as the no CD complaints IMO.

SM Rollinger
11-09-2019, 01:15 PM
Or such and such an album isn't on my steaming service anymore, and then the thread gets derailed into a discussion of weather or not streaming is even worth it for those who want to own their music.

I'm just gonna come out and say what everyone is thinking...

"YOUR FORMAT OF CHOICE SUCKS"

Can we just go back to being civil to each other?

Helpmeiaminhell
11-09-2019, 04:43 PM
Y But CDs offer nothing that isn't done better by files.

Except the lil thing called artwork.....And actually owning the physical product as opposed to having it on a cloud file.....And a factory made CD would be better than burning it to a CDR...Just because you and your vinyl only buddies deem CD "dead" doesn't mean its dead lol. Its dead to you but alive and well to others....Thats the beauty of listening to music....Anybody can listen on any format and everyone has their own choice on how to digest it. If some guy wants to listen to his cassette tapes he bought in 1987 on a worn down 30 year old boombox, then thats his choice. I know numerous people that got into vinyl and then bailed because its 1) too expensive 2) takes up too much space 3) doesn't sound as good as CD/ digital high res files or 4) all of the above....Not sure why it is an issue for anyone. Everyone has their preferred way of listening to music. If its vinyl or CD or cloud files or even a cassette tape. So an artist (especially one who has a hardcore dedicated fan base) should release their 'art" on all formats so the consumer can purchase the product in any way they like and make their own decision on how to listen to it. To limit it to specific formats is laughable. The fact enough people are complaining every time he does a vinyl only release shows there is still a market for CD. I can pretty much guarantee if he released these soundtracks as a limited edition run on CD through the nin site (20,000 or so pressed) it would sell out....within hours...Guaran-fuckin-teed

Tom
11-09-2019, 05:50 PM
Except the lil thing called artwork.....And actually owning the physical product as opposed to having it on a cloud file.....And a factory made CD would be better than burning it to a CDR...Just because you and your vinyl only buddies deem CD "dead" doesn't mean its dead lol.
Who said I was vinyl only? I thought it would have been clear from my post that I'm a strong advocate of file-based audio (locally stored files that is, not so much streaming services). Nor did I say that CD was 'dead', I said it was 'done', meaning that its time has passed (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/vinyl-cds-revenue-growth-riaa-880959/) - sure people still buy CDs (I still get maybe one a year), but it's not the dominant format that it was in the 90s, and for a multitude of good reasons: people who care about convenience and quality are moving on to files/streaming, and people who care about artwork and physical things are moving on (or back) to vinyl.

The sensible thing to do in response to this would be to invest in a decent digital replay rig, and pick up the LP if you want the artwork etc (no one says you have to actually listen to them). But by all means, cling to your CD player if you want, and continue to complain whenever TR and others decline to support the format; I suspect you'll have a lot more complaining to do as time goes on.

BRoswell
11-09-2019, 07:36 PM
The fact enough people are complaining every time he does a vinyl only release shows there is still a market for CD.

Except it's the same people ever single time, and apparently there's not enough of you guys to make a difference. If the numbers aren't there, it's not going to happen. That's just basic business sense.

And when you guys whine and get sarcastic about it, that doesn't exactly help your case either. Why should they listen to a bunch of entitled fans who are just going to keep complaining no matter what?

FULLMETAL
11-09-2019, 08:03 PM
A "physical component" w/high resolution audio files is my preferred choice in the format wars of 2019.

I will always grab vinyl for the large format artwork, liner notes, & things hidden in the deadwax, but it's a friction medium & I want each listening session to be pristine. I still grab CDs, but mainly opt for the Japanese release as I like their manufacturing & presentation (in addition to bonus tracks).

"Welcome oblivion" remains my benchmark release (exclusive CD of the vinyl included in the package), but I'm sure that cost a pretty penny to manufacture & without a record label - it won't likely happen again.

Fart.

botley
11-09-2019, 09:40 PM
Um, audiophilia to one side for a second, there is basically a Watchmen ARG happening with the additional websites, DC comics, podcasts, fan theories, and now this very cool Alternate-Reality text accompanying the physical soundtrack release (but they should just upload the PDF of that essay to Peteypedia (https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia) now, so we can all see it close up instead of waiting weeks on end to get the vinyl shipped locally).

piggy
11-09-2019, 11:03 PM
Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.

gorast
11-10-2019, 12:18 AM
Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.

I think - and I'm not certain - the issue on that front is when CDs took over, a lot of vinyl plants shut down or moved on to manufacture other things, so when vinyl had its resurgence, those plants got backlogged because there were so few, and other, shittier plants that either don't have the same quality control or focused on getting stuff out quick sprung up instead. I think it also depends on the artist, label, and how much the interested parties care about the quality of the vinyl. NIN records will generally be made with care at a plant that probably gets backlogged by their volume, while, say, a Carly Rae Jepsen record shit out by her label will get printed in a back alley somewhere and will turn out to be shit, because it'll sell anyway.

Tom
11-10-2019, 01:19 AM
Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.
It's certainly a problem I've encountered numerous times. It's a drag, but if you buy from a store with a good returns policy then that takes the sting out a bit. Sometimes a run will have a mix of good and bad pressings, sometimes it seems they're all bad. But so long as you can return or exchange it's okay. It can be awkward if you're buying a limited release direct from the artist or from a small bandcamp label, but even then I've found that most are happy to replace. This is one of a number of drawbacks that's unique to vinyl, but if you enjoy the medium then you just deal with it - the pros still outweigh the cons.

MrLobster
11-10-2019, 03:26 AM
*coughs*

Maybe there needs to be a Streaming pile thread.

Lots of assumptions going on in here.

You don't like vinyl only content, well, okay, that's fine and fair enough I guess. But to tell us that a format that is capped at 16-bit is ideal for anything is kinda silly... similar for all compressed audio, including streaming. I'll stick with lossless digital and encoding my vinyl and shellac to lossless digital. Yes, production errors certainly do happen (*stares at Universal*) and there's a lot of music not being properly mastered for the format (do not just stick an MP3 or CD 16-bit source on vinyl and call it good...) but in an overall sense, I feel much better spending my money on vinyl than I ever did on CDs. So much so I'm on a quest to replace all my CDs with vinyl versions... I may not always win
in the battle against better quality audio but I do feel better owning it that way.

I'm in the midst of re-encoding all of my CDs back on my computer (again lossless but also making CD master images, jussssssst in case, 100 down, like another 600 to go), and some of them really... really just "sound like CDs". A small handful of them sound just as good as the vinyl versions I've replaced them with (yay for properly mastering for their respective formats). I've had better luck cleaning vinyl than I have with CDs (CDs can be weird, you clean them and they the drive rejects them... muddy it up with some finger prints again and all is fine in the world).

Personally, I just like to own the music I listen to. Nearly all of my disposable income for 27years has gone into collecting music (but I never, ever see it as in investment... that's just kinda silly when we're talking about items that are mass produced in the millions or even hundreds, my value comes in just appreciating it ... and sharing it via mixtapes and weekly net streaming audio show... but yes, if at some point I did need to sell my collection, it would be nice to get at least the median Discogs price for them).

Halo Infinity
11-10-2019, 02:00 PM
What I like about this thread and any other threads like this, is that it still reminds me and reveals to me that there are people out there that still actually care about physical media. I've always been aware that they exist, but they've been obviously impossible for me to find in real life. I also say this as somebody that has had people go as far as to complain to me and even ridicule me for being interested in physical media as early as 2002 and 2003 when it came to buying CDs.

From what it looks like, it seems like most people I've met and known in real life would wonder why ETS still cares or even bothers with physical media, and just point to file-sharing/torrenting, streaming and smartphones, which is even more prevalent with people I know born in the second half of the 1990s and 2000s. (But yeah, with NIN fans, the majority of them are an entirely older demographic. Some of these younger people talk and look at me as if I'm from another planet or dimension when I talk to them about physical media, or even just dial-up Internet, VCRs and landline phones, but that's also clearly nothing new. Every generation goes through that in one way or another on all sorts of topics and facets/aspects of life.)

Even though I also tend to prefer CDs, all of what's been mentioned so far, including the Vinyl Mission Statement seems to be very consistent to Trent Reznor actually calling CDs ugly little pieces of shit back in 1994. Granted, those ugly little pieces of shit helped him succeed, but at the same time can still accept and understand his stance on vinyl as a treasured relic swept away from his past, which also kicked into high gear for me personally when I realized that it's almost near impossible to buy CDs and DVDs in malls of all places now, even before actually hitting 2020, so it always helped me further understand as to why he'd want more of his releases on vinyl.

I guess this kind of makes me thankful for my impulse purchase on a stand-alone vinyl player for cases like these, but at the same time still lean more to CDs. I do also get the point on it being better to have all the releases in all formats though. With all the collectors as seen here, it's just a guarantee for sales.

I've always liked being able to play CDs on all sorts of computers, stereos and even video game consoles though, while also being able to rip them on all sorts of computers, but I guess I'm also biased since that's all I grew up with aside from cassettes.

At this point, I'm just thankful that any physical media is released at all.

Jon
11-10-2019, 02:38 PM
I'm in the midst of re-encoding all of my CDs back on my computer (again lossless but also making CD master images, jussssssst in case, 100 down, like another 600 to go), and some of them really... really just "sound like CDs". A small handful of them sound just as good as the vinyl versions I've replaced them with (yay for properly mastering for their respective formats). I've had better luck cleaning vinyl than I have with CDs (CDs can be weird, you clean them and they the drive rejects them... muddy it up with some finger prints again and all is fine in the world).

I'd like to think I helped influence you to make back up images (per discussion in another thread), even though I know it's inevitable when you're trying to "one and done" archiving physical media.

With regards to CD's "sounding like CD's", this is a chronic problem with live releases, as well as jazz and orchestral/score work. For me, this covers roughly 65% of my optical collection these days (~2100). More and more, it seems pointless to rip certain releases and instead wait on a vinyl/digital upgrade.

Also, I can pull out a record that's 60 years old, give it a little shine, and I'm good to go. It is understandable that some people will never get used to clicks and pops, but I prefer that to literally smearing a layer of toothpaste on a disc and hoping I can listen to/extract at least one track.

d1stinct
11-10-2019, 04:43 PM
"The Poopy Diaper Vinyl Thread", I'm confused, is someone butt hurt?!?! /s

It does kinda suck that this was only released on vinyl, but... whatever.

I broke down and bought an Audio Technica player about a year ago, mainly because I like the idea of it forcing you to have to sit down and listen to the music, as opposed to it just being something in the background. Sure you can plug some speakers up to it, but eventually I want my younger daughters to have to appreciate music by spending time with it, and this is one way I'll show them how that's accomplished.

Max
11-11-2019, 02:21 PM
I use it all. I have a vinyl player, I buy CD's that I burn and add to a Hi-Res audio player, FLAC, streaming... ultimately the FLAC is the truest (read - least added noise) sound but all of them are great and no one is wrong.

The reason I buy ANYTHING anymore outside of my good-enough for 90% of my listening streaming subscription, is I want to support the artists I love. That's it. I sometimes buy vinyl when I know i will still stream it 90% of the time when I am living my life, because I want Trent Reznor or Saul Williams or Mogwai or Moor Mother or whoever to have my money. (Okay, and I LOVE the big art).

Support NIN and the artists you care about. Especially the lesser-known ones. Trent is rich already, compared to you and I, but maybe he makes different choices if NIN makes him no money at some point. Dollars are votes until we dismantle capitalism and eat the rich, so do what you can to vote for the art you love.

Listen however you want. Understand if you have a favorite medium, not every artist is going to hit them all.

It's okay. NO one is wrong here. It's okay to want CDs, it's okay to love vinyl. It's okay to wish that FLAC was the streaming standard and that artists did much more interesting digital and analogue art to go with it. Physical component anyone? I loved those.

It's all great to me. That's my happy thought for the day.

neorev
11-11-2019, 04:11 PM
I still don't quite understand the whole idea of vinyl forcing you to listen and appreciate music. I guess because I've done that and still do that easily without the need of vinyl. I can put on an album on CD or in lossless digital and completely shut out the world. Even better, I don't need to have my listening experience ruined and interrupted by having to keep switching sides and records altogether. A CD and/or lossless digital file allows me to have nonstop playback with no interruptions in high quality. Lossless hi-res is even better because now it's like having the source audio straight from the studio being given to you. CD only gets knocked down when it comes to a double album and you have to switch CDs. I avoid all of that getting up to switch discs nonsense with digital. Personally, I find the whole "vinyl makes you appreciate the music and actually listen to it" complete bullshit because I have never needed it to force me to listen to an album in full and appreciate it. I've been loving and experiencing and appreciating music just fine without it. If you can't take a moment from looking at your phone or doing some other mundane task like posting on Facebook and just sit back and listen to an album, well, that's on you and your self control, not the format. Without vinyl, there's no surface noise or crackles or pops and other crap not on the original source audio and, even better, none of that annoying switching records crap that completely takes me out of the listening experience. With lossless/hi-res digital, I put on an album and let myself be taken away.

Toadflax
11-11-2019, 05:40 PM
I still don't quite understand the whole idea of vinyl forcing you to listen and appreciate music. I guess because I've done that and still do that easily without the need of vinyl. I can put on an album on CD or in lossless digital and completely shut out the world. Even better, I don't need to have my listening experience ruined and interrupted by having to keep switching sides and records altogether. A CD and/or lossless digital file allows me to have nonstop playback with no interruptions in high quality. Lossless hi-res is even better because now it's like having the source audio straight from the studio being given to you. CD only gets knocked down when it comes to a double album and you have to switch CDs. I avoid all of that getting up to switch discs nonsense with digital. Personally, I find the whole "vinyl makes you appreciate the music and actually listen to it" complete bullshit because I have never needed it to force me to listen to an album in full and appreciate it. I've been loving and experiencing and appreciating music just fine without it. If you can't take a moment from looking at your phone or doing some other mundane task like posting on Facebook and just sit back and listen to an album, well, that's on you and your self control, not the format. Without vinyl, there's no surface noise or crackles or pops and other crap not on the original source audio and, even better, none of that annoying switching records crap that completely takes me out of the listening experience. With lossless/hi-res digital, I put on an album and let myself be taken away.

Fair enough statements all around, but be careful with the mindset of, "this isn't my experience, therefore it must not be anybody's experience."

neorev
11-11-2019, 06:25 PM
Fair enough statements all around, but be careful with the mindset of, "this isn't my experience, therefore it must not be anybody's experience."

I'm not saying you can't have a listening experience with vinyl as you can have an experience with any format. What I am saying is that vinyl doesn't make it any more special than someone else's experience without vinyl. I can still have a personal emotional experience with an album without a record being in my hand. Some people take vinyl too far and put this mindset in people that since they listen to vinyl, they are better than you and they are the ones that actually care about the music. This is sadly how Trent's vinyl manifesto came off as. It felt a bit elitist and a tad hypocritical for a guy who went to work at Apple of all places, not known for audio quality. It came off as Trent calling a large proportion of his fans not really true fans who actually listen to his music because they do not listen to it on vinyl.

I say just let people listen to the music the way they like to listen to it and no one is better than anyone else because of the format they choose.

P.S. Personally, The Fragile CD listening experience was a much better experience as the album flowed continuously and songs blended into each other whereas the vinyl edition has way too many start/stops being 3 records with 6 sides. I love the Definitive Edition, but miss the mixing of the CD.

Toadflax
11-11-2019, 06:55 PM
I'm not saying you can't have a listening experience with vinyl as you can have an experience with any format. What I meant was that vinyl doesn't make it any more special than someone else's experience without vinyl. It creates this mindset in people that since I listen to vinyl, I'm better than you and I actually care about the music, which is sadly how Trent's statements come off as. Elitism nonsense. Let's just listen to the music the way we like to listen to it and no one is better than anyone else.

Yeah, the elitist angle is ridiculous. I was more commenting on what you said about vinyl forcing you to engage more with the music being bullshit because it doesn't work that way for you. I agree that it's people's own self-control issues which determines whether or not they focus on the music they put on, but that doesn't change the fact that some people with those issues prefer vinyl for the hands-on aspect. Just because you find it easy to focus on music doesn't mean everyone else does.

For me, if I listen to music digitally, I may have it on in the background, I may be partially engaged with it, or I may listen to it totally focused. When I put on a vinyl, though, just the experience of picking it up, looking at the artwork, and taking out the record puts my brain in more of a state of "we are going to listen to this album now" than if I pull something up on Spotify and hit play. Again, it doesn't make one format better than the other, but it's why some people prefer that extra bit of engagement.

And yeah, I also find it cumbersome when it's a 3LP or more album. I love throwing on a Bowie record, partially because they're 1LP, but also because some albums (Low, Let's Dance, Tonight) were clearly intended for each side to have its own identity, but if I want to listen to a 3LP score or something, yeah, I'll probably just stream it instead.

Simply put, I totally agree that everyone should be free to listen to music however they hell they want without anyone telling them it's the wrong way. But this thread has also been a lot of "I don't think vinyl is better, therefore Trent should be putting out CDs," which is when it starts to get silly (I'm not saying you were saying that).

cdm
11-11-2019, 07:20 PM
Yeah, the elitist angle is ridiculous.

Am I missing something? Are you guys referring to the "mission statement" at the top of the NIN store music page? Because that...does not read elitist to me.

Toadflax
11-11-2019, 07:33 PM
Am I missing something? Are you guys referring to the "mission statement" at the top of the NIN store music page? Because that...does not read elitist to me.

I wasn't referring to that specifically. I was just referring to anyone claiming that the way that they choose to experience a thing is somehow better than the way another person chooses to experience a thing. Just like with plenty of foodies, wine/whiskey/cocktail enthusiasts, PC gamers, tech junkies, etc., some vinyl people can definitely be elitist about their shit.

I wouldn't call Trent elitist necessarily, but he's definitely been condescending toward CD fans as of late, i.e. "For those who prefer to consume media via small plastic discs, the Add Violence CD is in stores today."

cdm
11-11-2019, 07:50 PM
Something sometimes lost in this discussion: TR grew up listening to vinyl. Vinyl is nostalgic to him the way cds are to a lot of us. And when it begins to make less and less fiscal sense to manufacture a cd...it’s probably an easy decision to make.

BRoswell
11-11-2019, 11:57 PM
And when it begins to make less and less fiscal sense to manufacture a cd...it’s probably an easy decision to make.

Yep. Also something to remember: Trent & Atticus are the artists here, and like most artists, I assume they want their art presented in a way that makes sense to them, even if it's not what everyone wants. I think they've moved past feeling like they have to meet everyone's expectations and are just doing what feels right for them, and it's hard for me to argue that they shouldn't do that.

MrLobster
11-12-2019, 12:53 AM
he's definitely been condescending toward CD fans as of late, i.e. "For those who prefer to consume media via small plastic discs, the Add Violence CD is in stores today."

I don't read it that way; he was just stating that for those that prefer that format, it was available.

If it read "For those who prefer to consume media via 12" vinylite disc, the Add Violence vinyl is in store today.", it'd be the same.

neorev
11-12-2019, 01:10 AM
I don't read it that way; he was just stating that for those that prefer that format, it was available.

If it read "For those who prefer to consume media via 12" vinylite disc, the Add Violence vinyl is in store today.", it'd be the same.

Maybe if he said, "For those who prefer to consume media via oversized resin discs," then maybe you got a point, but he was clearly talking shit on the CD format.

It's super cheap to press CDs, so I do not see the big deal in an artist doing a limited edition CD for their fans. Most artists still release a CD edition, so clearly there's still some money in CDs.

Also, if we want to use the artist want their art digested in a specific way, why did they decide to give The Fragile Deviations digital PDF way more artwork than the physical vinyl? If there was a release that needed some artwork, especially being pure instrumental, that was the one.

jmtd
11-12-2019, 04:49 AM
Isn't there a decent portion of vinyl being manufactured now that has quality control issues, though? I don't pay super close attention, but it seems like I frequently see people on discogs.com and such who are complaining about problematic modern/current pressings. What has happened to the manufacturing process? Wasn't it better back in the day? If I was a vinyl fan, I think that factor (along with cost) would scare me off from investing in it. I promise I'm not interested in joining or exacerbating the pissing match, I just genuinely wondered how bad or widespread this problem is.

Yes. It's a race to the bottom to get the stuff pressed and shipped to meet market demand. And a significant proportion of the buyers either never actually play the vinyl (just use the download code) or don't notice or care about imperfections in the pressing (all those Crosley owners for example). The (awesome) NIN fanbase is an exception. And look what happens whenever TR releases something, we get pages and pages of forum posts about people returning faulty pressings.


But to tell us that a format that is capped at 16-bit is ideal for anything is kinda silly

Have you ever performed a double-blind listening test of 16 versus 24 (or higher) to categorically establish that you can actually tell the difference?

If not, the squishyball tool (https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/squishyball) is one thing you can use to help run the test.

MrLobster
11-12-2019, 05:18 AM
Have you ever performed a double-blind listening test of 16 versus 24 (or higher) to categorically establish that you can actually tell the difference?

That actually doesn't matter to the point I was making. I was talking about the inherent technical limitations of the format... but to answer the question; no. I haven't compared 24-bit WAV to 16-bit CD lossless for the same tracks (although I did just compare the 24-bit WAV, 4608kbps, of Ruiner to the High Resolution Stereo version from the Super Deluxe edition of The Downward Spiral, 1013kbps, at the same playback volume annnnnnd.... the WAV sounds a tiny bit brighter to my ears). As I also mentioned that same post, only a few CDs really sound like CDs (which is to say, sounds limited in a weird way) to me, most sound just fine (if but on the LOUD side sometimes).

cdm
11-12-2019, 07:58 AM
Maybe if he said, "For those who prefer to consume media via oversized resin discs," then maybe you got a point, but he was clearly talking shit on the CD format.

It's super cheap to press CDs, so I do not see the big deal in an artist doing a limited edition CD for their fans. Most artists still release a CD edition, so clearly there's still some money in CDs.

For one, why take a comment so personally? Who cares if he makes a snide comment regarding a specific format? He's not shitting on you or your collection. He has an opinion based on a whole host of factors, decades of experience, and input from his management, his financial advisors, a label, etc. In the case of Watchmen, there is an additional layer with HBO management. In an increasingly difficult retail marketplace pressing the cd apparently isn't worth the effort / cost.

Prettybrokenspiral
11-12-2019, 09:07 AM
My personal favorite is when people on Discogs are (constantly) bitching about the quality of a vinyl pressing of [insert any title here], and someone drops the obligatory "The vinyl sounds fine, check your mediocre turntable if you're having issues.." reply, which is bound to smoke out elitist pricks like rats. It's never not funny..

Helpmeiaminhell
11-12-2019, 12:26 PM
Something sometimes lost in this discussion: TR grew up listening to vinyl. Vinyl is nostalgic to him the way cds are to a lot of us. And when it begins to make less and less fiscal sense to manufacture a cd...it’s probably an easy decision to make.


In the mid 90s, artists like Beck and Thurston Moore were releasing albums/EP's on vinyl and not even offering a CD of those particular releases. This was at a time when vinyl was in the graveyard. Those guys can claim how they always repped vinyl. I don't remember Trent releasing any albums/EPs on just vinyl back then. Every LP he released had a CD release as well. But in the last few years, once vinyl became popular again, suddenly he hops on the vinyl only bandwagon and is claiming how he always preferred it...Errrr ok....I also remember him doing interviews in the mid 90s claiming how he was listening to Bowie Rykodisc CDs because they had bonus tracks on them. I also remember him saying how he was a member of Columbia House when he was a teenager. Columbia House didnt ship vinyl....For someone who hates streaming (as Trent clearly does) and prefers his fans consume the physical product, you would think he would be happy fans want to buy CDs instead of downloading for free.....

Tom
11-12-2019, 02:14 PM
with CDs you can instantly hit that little button and skip to the next track. Albums, at least, you had to go to the trouble of moving the needle. With an album you had this big piece of art, something on the inside and the vinyl. You know, it was a cool thing. CDs are ugly little pieces of shit; art's gone. - TR, 1994

I've been in denial ever since CDs came out. CD packages suck. They can unfold 15 times, but they're still shitty little pamphlets. It's not a sleeve, there's no real estate, and there's no room for art. It's in a shitty, plastic, exploding jewel box. They're shit. - TR, 2005

I'd say he's been pretty consistent.

Toadflax
11-12-2019, 03:13 PM
I think what's happening recently with media in general is that we've hit a critical mass with what's possible. From the mid-20th century until a few years ago, we were constantly building toward convenience and accessibility. We went from records, which required you to be stationary, to things like CDs and tapes, which allowed you to listen on the fly, to iPods, where you could keep a ton of music on you at all times, to streaming, which allows you to listen to (more or less) listen to anything anywhere.

Each of those paradigms shifts was exciting, but now we've pretty much reached the end of the line, and I think that's part of what has caused the resurgence of vinyl. The battle for convenience is over, which is causing people to appreciate a format that takes a step back from the instant gratification we've gotten so used to. And of course, for some, streaming is all they've ever wanted and all they'll use from now on, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

(I just saw Terminator: Dark Fate, and I realized how unexcited I was by all the effects, largely because of the same issue. Now that CGI lets us do anything, we're not nearly as impressed with it anymore. Compare that to something like the Mission: Impossible movies, where it's still exciting to watch crazy Ethan Hunt hanging off the side of a plane, because we know crazy Tom Cruise was actually hanging off the side of a plane.)

But now look at it from an artist's point of view. Each of those paradigm shifts is both an advantage and a disadvantage to an artist. "Now people can listen to my music on the fly on CD... but they can also skip/shuffle songs instead of listening to the album." "Now people can have all of my songs on their iPod at once... but they can also just listen to one of my songs before switching over to something else." "Now anyone with Spotify can stream my music... but they can also listen to every other artist in the world instead."

So someone like Trent is always going to experiment with different ideas, from digital-only releases like the original release of The Slip to multi-format releases like Ghosts to vinyl-only releases like The Fragile: Deviations 1. Since the vinyl mission statement of 2016, Trent's focus on CDs has waned, with the CD versions of the trilogy being treated more like an afterthought than anything else. Who knows where it'll go from here, but as I mentioned a few pages back, if they felt there was enough of a demand for CDs, they would make CDs, plain and simple. Also, this is to say nothing of the fact that film/TV scores are likely to fall under a different set of rules than NIN releases, as Trent and Atticus are almost certainly not the only people who get to decide how their score work is released.

eversonpoe
11-12-2019, 03:39 PM
...now we've pretty much reached the end of the line...

just wait til we can get chips implanted directly into our brains to stream that sweet sweet music! /s

even as someone who almost constantly needs background noise (tv or music will do) when i'm not actively listening to something, i would never want something like that.

also, your entire post is spot-on. <3

i'd always rather see slightly "off" (or even straight up shitty) practical effects than even the best CGI, not because i'm some elitist, but because my brain has a much easier time with suspension of disbelief when something is real and was crafted in the physical world, even if i can see the people pushing it down the hallway on a dolly :: cough cough the engineer in hellraiser cough ::
i think that relates directly to my affinity for vinyl. i'd rather be able to hold something in my hands that, while it may have imperfections, pulls me into an experience. and again, that's not to discount CDs being able to do that, but i am a sucker for the big artwork.

neorev
11-12-2019, 03:55 PM
For one, why take a comment so personally? Who cares if he makes a snide comment regarding a specific format? He's not shitting on you or your collection. He has an opinion based on a whole host of factors, decades of experience, and input from his management, his financial advisors, a label, etc. In the case of Watchmen, there is an additional layer with HBO management. In an increasingly difficult retail marketplace pressing the cd apparently isn't worth the effort / cost.


Not personally as my response was to another member saying they didn't see Trent's words as bashing the format, but your response proves the point of my post that he was clearly shitting on the format as you called it a snide comment.

Also, HBO presses their soundtracks on CD all of the time, so it's not HBO. Big Little Lies, The Leftovers, Game Of Thrones, etc. scores got a CD release.

jmtd
11-12-2019, 04:02 PM
IIRC the CD releases of the EP trilogy didn't arrive until quite some time after the vinyl and digital releases. So perhaps there is a CD for this planned and we can't be sure one way or the other until a bit more time has passed.



That actually doesn't matter to the point I was making. I was talking about the inherent technical limitations of the format...

Forgive me if I misunderstood but I thought you were asserting that 16 bit sample size was not sufficient. I'm not challenging that from a technical perspective (we could go there if you want), I was talking about what you can perceive. If one can't perceive any audible information in the extra space, what's the point of it?


but to answer the question; no. I haven't compared 24-bit WAV to 16-bit CD lossless for the same tracks (although I did just compare the 24-bit WAV, 4608kbps, of Ruiner to the High Resolution Stereo version from the Super Deluxe edition of The Downward Spiral, 1013kbps, at the same playback volume annnnnnd.... the WAV sounds a tiny bit brighter to my ears).


I very deliberately wrote double-blind listening test and you have responded with compare. Did you perform a double-blind listening test? Any comparison test short of that is a waste of time. Personally I like X/X/Y tests:


X/X/Y testing is a form of A/B/X testing in which the order of all samples is randomized and the position of the 'X' sample is not known ahead of time to be in the third position. In each trial, the user selects which of sample 1, 2 or 3 is believed to be the sample that is different from the other two. This test is useful for determining if any differences are audible between two samples and to what confidence level. It is a stronger version of the A/B/X test that eliminates sample order bias.

You are right to point out the need to normalize for average volume. I believe squishyball (the software I linked to) supports replaygain metadata for this purpose.

Toadflax
11-12-2019, 04:06 PM
Also, HBO presses their soundtracks on CD all of the time, so it's not HBO. Big Little Lies, The Leftovers, Game Of Thrones, etc. scores got a CD release.

Sure, but were any of those scores meta-narrative ARG type things? I wouldn't be surprised if the Watchmen score as a whole gets a vanilla CD release early next year, but with what they're doing with the staggered, fake release thing, it makes sense they would stick to one format for the initial pressing.

neorev
11-12-2019, 04:47 PM
Sure, but were any of those scores meta-narrative ARG type things? I wouldn't be surprised if the Watchmen score as a whole gets a vanilla CD release early next year, but with what they're doing with the staggered, fake release thing, it makes sense they would stick to one format for the initial pressing.

Possibly, but my response was to this comment that HBO management wouldn't press CD cuz it isn't worth the effort and cost, when HBO does indeed press CDs. Even Netflix and Lakeshore Records have released their scores on CD. There's clearly a market still.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-12-2019, 08:00 PM
This post will officially end the debate. This is for Trent and all the "CDs are dead and obsolete" and "theres no market for CDs anymore" people...Great article obliterating the bullshit false narrative that vinyl is outselling CDs in 2019...Vinyl is generating equal revenue because a vinyl LP sells for 2 to 3 times the cost of a CD. Look a little closer and you will see twice as many CDs were sold in the first half of 2019 compared to vinyl...Actually CDs have outsold vinyl by 116% THIS YEAR... 18.6 million CDs sold in the first 6 months of 2019 which averages out to around 37 million CDs sold in 2019......37 million CDs sold in 2019...CDs have outsold vinyl by 116% this year.... Vinyl at its best selling rate is still getting stomped on by CD sales. Oh yeah heres another article from Billboard talking about how CDs for Tool and Taylor Swift and Post Malone are flying off the shelves and now major labels are rethinking their anti CD strategy because they realize CDs are still big revenue….. That ends the whole "CDs are dying and obsolete" narrative


http://www.radiosurvivor.com/2019/10/09/no-vinyl-records-arent-outselling-cds-do-the-math/ (http://www.radiosurvivor.com/2019/10/09/no-vinyl-records-arent-outselling-cds-do-the-math/)

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8530043/cd-sales-retail-label-strategy-taylor-swift-tool-physical-music

Avarik
11-12-2019, 10:15 PM
How do I 24/48 on a CD? Please advise.

BRoswell
11-12-2019, 11:29 PM
This post will officially end the debate. This is for Trent and all the "CDs are dead and obsolete" and "theres no market for CDs anymore" people...Great article obliterating the bullshit false narrative that vinyl is outselling CDs in 2019...Vinyl is generating equal revenue because a vinyl LP sells for 2 to 3 times the cost of a CD. Look a little closer and you will see twice as many CDs were sold in the first half of 2019 compared to vinyl...Actually CDs have outsold vinyl by 116% THIS YEAR... 18.6 million CDs sold in the first 6 months of 2019 which averages out to around 37 million CDs sold in 2019......37 million CDs sold in 2019...CDs have outsold vinyl by 116% this year.... Vinyl at its best selling rate is still getting stomped on by CD sales. Oh yeah heres another article from Billboard talking about how CDs for Tool and Taylor Swift and Post Malone are flying off the shelves and now major labels are rethinking their anti CD strategy because they realize CDs are still big revenue….. That ends the whole "CDs are dying and obsolete" narrative


http://www.radiosurvivor.com/2019/10/09/no-vinyl-records-arent-outselling-cds-do-the-math/ (http://www.radiosurvivor.com/2019/10/09/no-vinyl-records-arent-outselling-cds-do-the-math/)

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8530043/cd-sales-retail-label-strategy-taylor-swift-tool-physical-music


You missed the most important part:


"Instead it’s the case that vinyl is outearning and generating more revenue than CDs."

More revenue is more important than how many units get sold. Companies are making more money off vinyl than off CDs, even if they're not selling as many vinyl copies. Also, what about digital sales and streaming versus CDs? Oh, and there's no mention of how niche releases (i.e. soundtracks) do when the same comparison is made.

Jon
11-12-2019, 11:43 PM
Also, what about digital sales and streaming versus CDs? Oh, and there's no mention of how niche releases (i.e. soundtracks) do when the same comparison is made.

During the first half of 2019, vinyl sales accounted for 4% of the market, whereas paid subscriptions to streaming services accounted for 62%:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/vinyl-cds-revenue-growth-riaa-880959/

eversonpoe
11-13-2019, 12:25 AM
How do I 24/48 on a CD? Please advise.

can't tell if joke or not joke...

jmtd
11-13-2019, 03:09 AM
How do I 24/48 on a CD? Please advise.

How do you do 24/48 on vinyl? Same answer : you don't.

Tom
11-13-2019, 04:02 AM
That ends the whole "CDs are dying and obsolete" narrative

Not quite.

The article you link to certainly shows that it would be incorrect to say that vinyl was currently outselling CD. The thing is, no one said it was. The disparity between units sold for each format is, as the author notes, obvious - no math required. The Rolling Stone article that he's talking about does not say that records are outselling CDs - it says they're poised to do so - that is, on the basis of current trends, it won't be long before they are. The basis for that prediction is not the single stat showing that, despite shifting fewer units, vinyl sales generated almost the same revenue as CD sales in the first half of 2019. The prediction that vinyl is poised to outsell CDs is based on year-on-year rates of decline in CDs sales versus rates of growth in vinyl sales. But really, in the context of a discussion about the death of CD, the comparison with vinyl sales is just a distraction. The key point is simply that, for both revenue and sales, CDs have been declining year-on-year since 2000, and the decline has yet to bottom out - indeed, the rate of decline has recently jumped. Check out the graphs here (https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/), particularly the second one. In 2017, 87.7M units sold, versus 52M in 2018 - a decline of over 40%. So, from an industry perspective, CD is dying a long death - no false narrative here, just look at the numbers. But who knows, perhaps the combined powers of Tool and Taylor Swift will be enough to reverse this trend.

katara
11-13-2019, 05:05 AM
Maybe if he said, "For those who prefer to consume media via oversized resin discs," then maybe you got a point, but he was clearly talking shit on the CD format.
The NTAE vinyl is described on the sticker as "The preferred edition of Not The Actual Events". This text hasn't simply been omitted on the CD release, it's actually blacked out. It's all quite passive-aggressive.

PhoenixML
11-13-2019, 09:00 AM
For someone who hates streaming (as Trent clearly does)

What? Didn't he was involved in helping make Beats Music streaming services? Releasing exclusive EPs on it? And after being bought by Apple, he released a couple of exclusive releases on Ping (who remembers that useless semi-social aspect of Apple iTunes where the artist could "interact directly to their fans").

jmtd
11-13-2019, 10:19 AM
What? Didn't he was involved in helping make Beats Music streaming services? Releasing exclusive EPs on it? And after being bought by Apple, he released a couple of exclusive releases on Ping (who remembers that useless semi-social aspect of Apple iTunes where the artist could "interact directly to their fans").

He was very clear that he was getting involved in Beats/Apple Music streaming on a business/consultant level to try and build something which didn't suck. He then gave up and is no longer involved.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-13-2019, 02:32 PM
Point is everyone has a choice to listen to their music on vinyl or CD or streaming or even cassettes. There's no right or wrong way to listen to music. I just don't get into the whole "I like vinyl and people who listen to CDs suck" or "I have CDs and vinyl people suck" arguments. I have thousands of CDs and I will continue to add to my collection. To be honest the main reason I don't get started on vinyl is because I know if I ever start collecting vinyl, I won't be able to stop until I have every fucking album of every band I like and I don't feel like dropping 50 grand or more on vinyl. I am a hardcore music collector. If I start with vinyl, it won't stop until I get 9999999999999999999 records. My only issue is this narrative CDs are dying and on the way out which is nonsense. CD sales might be declining but they are still selling 40 plus million CDs a year and big name artists still sell lots of CDs and they still outsell vinyl by 116%. CDs are not going the way of Betamax in the 80s or cassette tapes in the 90s or VHS in the 2000s where it becomes almost an obsolete format. There will always be a market for CDs. If anything CDs may go the way of vinyl in the 90s. On the decline, but still having enough of an audience to keep them afloat until the eventual comeback....

cdm
11-13-2019, 02:50 PM
I just don't get into the whole "I like vinyl and people who listen to CDs suck" or "I have CDs and vinyl people suck" arguments.

Who says this? I don't recall anyone here saying this.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-13-2019, 07:58 PM
Who says this? I don't recall anyone here saying this.

Trent Reznor says it.....Also check the name of the thread


Every debate on here about CD vs vinyl turns into a pissing contest of CD people shitting on vinyl people and vinyl people shitting on CD people. Can't we all just get along?

SM Rollinger
11-13-2019, 08:43 PM
As a FLAC elitist, I like to talk down to those who still listen to mp3s.

allegate
11-13-2019, 10:08 PM
pfft, you listen to FLAC? Probably 16-bit too. If it's not a 32-bit .wav I don't want to hear it.

eversonpoe
11-13-2019, 11:32 PM
Can't we all just get along?

this is why i still like having you around, man. sometimes you're right on the money and just want everyone to have a good time on here. <3

i'm all about letting people enjoy what they enjoy. as long as it's not hurting anyone, who gives a shit?
people in chicago flip out if you wanna put ketchup on your hot dog (i never put anything but cheese on a dog so it's a non-issue for me) and it's just like...who fucking cares? how does it affect you when someone puts a certain thing on their food? are they making you eat it? no? then shut up about it.
the same thing applies to format preference. "you like vinyl? cool! hope you enjoy listening to your records. do you catalog them?" "you like CDs? cool! do you have any cool box sets?"
it's so much easier to be nice and excited for someone but so many people choose to be dicks and i just don't get it. /rant

BRoswell
11-14-2019, 12:10 AM
Every debate on here about CD vs vinyl turns into a pissing contest of CD people shitting on vinyl people and vinyl people shitting on CD people. Can't we all just get along?

Uh, you were just as much a part of it as anyone else, especially with your sarcastic post a few pages back.

Also, I hope Trent & Atticus release the next Nine Inch Nails album on 8-track only just to take the piss out of more uptight fans.

Tom
11-14-2019, 02:29 AM
Can't we all just get along?
Not dismissing people who like vinyl as 'revisionist hipsters' would be a good place to start - we're hardcore music collectors, like yourself.

PhoenixML
11-14-2019, 08:57 AM
Alright.... I like my streaming services. I tried testing my headphones with the blindtests of wav vs 128 vs 320 and I couldn't tell the difference in a quiet room (well maybe the 128). So in the bus or at work, I don't think I could care. I won't buy better headphones (yet, maybe ANC). I won't stop streaming (yet) and go all flac (or pay extra for Tidal HD) where I don't know how I'm going to sync all this between my devices and family account and everything.

BUT! I would like to buy something. Vinyl seems a little bit useless if I don't have a record player. I'm not sure I want to invest (from 150 to 300$) and take the time to listen to what I am already listening to in the bus or at work. At home, I don't have much time for it. Collector's editions are too expensive and doesn't impress my wife or friends :P CDs are useless. I liked the idea of physical components, but that was scrapped. So now, I try to buy accessories now. Pins, shirts, stickers, tickets, books. But living in Canada, shipping cost is high. (I'm way toooo rational on my spendings)

Back to vinyl. If I were to buy a record player, that wouldn't be for the sound, it would be to take the time to sit down and do "nothing" while listening to a favorite album. Which is something I don't do now. The idea is interesting. But I can do that with my phone plugged in my amp/speakers. And I can play custom playlist. So, I'm still thinking. I really tempted by the Watchmen trilogy. Then I'm scared on how many vinyls I would buy....

So, thanks for listening.

Tom
11-14-2019, 09:29 AM
BUT! I would like to buy something. Vinyl seems a little bit useless if I don't have a record player. I'm not sure I want to invest (from 150 to 300$) and take the time to listen to what I am already listening to in the bus or at work.

Why not invest in a network player that you could hook to your amp? Something that can play your files, stream from your subscribed streaming services, and that you can control from your couch with your phone. Easy to build for not much over $100, and it'll sound better than your phone.

Toadflax
11-14-2019, 12:37 PM
Every debate on here about CD vs vinyl turns into a pissing contest of CD people shitting on vinyl people and vinyl people shitting on CD people. Can't we all just get along?


this is why i still like having you around, man. sometimes you're right on the money and just want everyone to have a good time on here. <3

it's so much easier to be nice and excited for someone but so many people choose to be dicks and i just don't get it.

It's definitely the case that some people are dicky about their preferred format, but it's pretty easy to shut them down, since almost all of us fall into the category of "listen however the fuck you want."

But the bigger conversation here is about whether artists (specifically NIN & TR/AR) should be obligated to put their music out on CD. This of course inevitably turns into arguments about which format is better, more popular, etc., which is unfortunate, but it's definitely a more interesting debate than "my format can beat up your format."

I've always been on the side of just getting whatever format a thing comes out in and being totally fine with it. I haven't seen any great arguments from other people about why artists should be obligated to put things out on CD, but it's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts. Most of the arguments tend to be, "they should put things out on CD, because I listen to CDs," which is ridiculous, but the more nuanced arguments on both sides have been pretty cool to read.

Jon
11-14-2019, 02:26 PM
It's definitely the case that some people are dicky about their preferred format, but it's pretty easy to shut them down, since almost all of us fall into the category of "listen however the fuck you want."

But the bigger conversation here is about whether artists (specifically NIN & TR/AR) should be obligated to put their music out on CD. This of course inevitably turns into arguments about which format is better, more popular, etc., which is unfortunate, but it's definitely a more interesting debate than "my format can beat up your format."

I've always been on the side of just getting whatever format a thing comes out in and being totally fine with it. I haven't seen any great arguments from other people about why artists should be obligated to put things out on CD, but it's been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts. Most of the arguments tend to be, "they should put things out on CD, because I listen to CDs," which is ridiculous, but the more nuanced arguments on both sides have been pretty cool to read.

In my opinion, the artist has no obligation to anything, outside of making music. That is what makes you a musician/artist. They are not even obligated to release said music; any more of an expectation is unreasonable. That sounds like common sense, but sometimes it takes seeing an idea written out before we can begin to understand the psychology behind why we may prefer "x" format.

Along those lines, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that could effectively argue for the superiority of any format. Digital seems superior in every sense, save for dopamine hits. The heart (feelings/beliefs) often wins out over the mind (logic/reason).

katara
11-14-2019, 03:06 PM
Most of the arguments tend to be, "they should put things out on CD, because I listen to CDs," which is ridiculous
No, it's not.

Jon
11-14-2019, 03:23 PM
No, it's not.

Then what is it when you reduce it down?

Toadflax
11-14-2019, 03:31 PM
No, it's not.

Excellent rebuttal. :p

Looking back through your previous posts, you have one of the strongest CD arguments on here. Essentially, "I want to own a physical version of this without having to pay vinyl prices."

I tend to not understand why people can't just buy the vinyl to have something physical and then burn a CD from the digital release if that's their preferred medium. That was kind of the idea of the physical components: "we're not planning on putting this out on CD, so here's a thing you can hold and put on a shelf if you don't want the vinyl." But yeah, when the vinyl option is three records totaling close to $100, I get the frustration.

BenAkenobi
11-14-2019, 10:39 PM
You guys seem to have it set in stone that CD is bound to be this despicable little shitty thing, while it's not necessary so.
The "downside" and the most common argument against CDs - small artwork - is not mandatory by the format.
Sure, 12 x 14 cm is how 99% is manufactured. But who forbids making bigger packaging? Nobody!
Make them book-sized, make them 10-inch - why it's almost never done is NOT fans' fault.
So many musicians and record labels are simply lazy to think outside the box.
NIN made a badass book Ghosts, it's gorgeous. It doesn't always have to be as badass, but it doesn't have to be in the minimalist polar opposite either.

cdm
11-15-2019, 08:13 AM
You guys seem to have it set in stone that CD is bound to be this despicable little shitty thing, while it's not necessary so.

This is a very dramatic interpretation of what is being said here (generally).

BRoswell
11-15-2019, 08:52 AM
Yeah, I don't think anyone was saying that. It's just that, from a dollars and cents perspective, it doesn't make much sense for them to make CDs if the vinyl versions are going to make them more money overall. Obviously that doesn't satisfy people who have a gut reaction to this sort of thing, but I'm practical about it. If you like CDs, cool, but you're not entitled to a CD just because you like them. If you don't want the vinyl, steal the album online (there's plenty of places to do so), buy some cheap jewel cases, print out some artwork and DIY yourself a CD like we used to do back in Ye Olde Days.

Jon
11-15-2019, 11:00 AM
You guys seem to have it set in stone that CD is bound to be this despicable little shitty thing, while it's not necessary so.
The "downside" and the most common argument against CDs - small artwork - is not mandatory by the format.
Sure, 12 x 14 cm is how 99% is manufactured. But who forbids making bigger packaging? Nobody!
Make them book-sized, make them 10-inch - why it's almost never done is NOT fans' fault.
So many musicians and record labels are simply lazy to think outside the box.
NIN made a badass book Ghosts, it's gorgeous. It doesn't always have to be as badass, but it doesn't have to be in the minimalist polar opposite either.

Completely agree with these.

As far as bigger packaging, it had a stigma as being an inferior/more fragile way to present music. No clue if this is still the case, but here are some personal examples:

https://i.imgur.com/OvDf7SG.jpg

BenAkenobi
11-15-2019, 11:19 AM
Yeah, I don't think anyone was saying that...

Somebody quoted T-Rez. I have no horse in this race. I don't own a single vinyl record (i have no right to say anything). Peace!

But the we got pure bliss -- digital high resolution download. Should be answer to all.
Do we have access to entire artists catalog on their own site? No. Sites get redesigned, shops change, download codes expire...
Do we have a definitive third party digital shop where we can get anything? No. Some albums missing, some tracks only available in bundles, some material region locked.

And then the Artist from capital A finds it okay to troll his listeners. Okaaaaaay.

Toadflax
11-15-2019, 12:21 PM
Yeah, the "make CDs better" argument is interesting. 13/14 years later, and I still reference the releases of With Teeth and 10,000 Days. Trent said, "no one's buying CDs, so here's a shitty CD," while Tool said, "here's a CD with a packaging you can only experience in an analog space. You can rip the music and scan the liner notes, but you can't download stereoscopic glasses." Tool stepped up and gave us a reason to buy their thing.

Appropriately, years later, we're looking at the same thing with those same artists. Trent is trying non-CD angles - vinyl and digital-only releases - while Tool released a next-level CD package that sold a bunch of units right away.

imail724
11-15-2019, 12:37 PM
while Tool released a next-level CD package that sold a bunch of units right away.
To be fair, Fear Inoculum wasn't released on any other physical medium, so I wonder if the CD version would have sold as well if they also released a standard CD and a vinyl version.

botley
11-16-2019, 12:23 AM
To be fair, Fear Inoculum wasn't released on any other medium
Streaming and download releases were simultaneous with the CD.

jmtd
11-16-2019, 02:13 AM
With Teeth still had a little effort put into the packaging. With the exception of one slightly odd edition, it was a digipak.

SM Rollinger
11-16-2019, 08:07 AM
With Teeth still had a little effort put into the packaging. With the exception of one slightly odd edition, it was a digipak.

Remember it had the PDF file though? That was pretty ahead of it's time.

imail724
11-16-2019, 09:19 AM
Streaming and download releases were simultaneous with the CD.I meant to say physical medium. Fixed.

chuckrh
11-16-2019, 10:53 AM
i have a few good reasons not to dive into the vinyl thing. i had vinyl in the past like when i was a kid but i'm on a fixed income & given the price nowadays, its a habit that i just can't afford. the other reason is i have a really terrible version of RA (with an osteo chaser) & my hands don't work so well a lot of the time & i tend to drop stuff. cds are way more difficult to mess up. a minor drop isn't going to do damage where a minor drop of a record could be a catastrophe. i'm all for the artists making money & continue to support cd & download music. i wish nin.com did high quality downloads for stuff like the watchmen. i checked amazon & the only option is mp3 for watchmen. i'll most likely be buying the download from them but am going to shop around a bit to see if i can find lossless versions.

Merriweather
11-16-2019, 02:48 PM
i have a few good reasons not to dive into the vinyl thing. i had vinyl in the past like when i was a kid but i'm on a fixed income & given the price nowadays, its a habit that i just can't afford. the other reason is i have a really terrible version of RA (with an osteo chaser) & my hands don't work so well a lot of the time & i tend to drop stuff. cds are way more difficult to mess up. a minor drop isn't going to do damage where a minor drop of a record could be a catastrophe. i'm all for the artists making money & continue to support cd & download music. i wish nin.com did high quality downloads for stuff like the watchmen. i checked amazon & the only option is mp3 for watchmen. i'll most likely be buying the download from them but am going to shop around a bit to see if i can find lossless versions.

Someone posted in the Watchmen thread, I think, that FLAC files are available for purchase on Tidal. Kind of pricey compared to say, Bandcamp, but thatís an option.

chuckrh
11-16-2019, 02:55 PM
Someone posted in the Watchmen thread, I think, that FLAC files are available for purchase on Tidal. Kind of pricey compared to say, Bandcamp, but that’s an option.

thanks!

allegate
11-16-2019, 06:12 PM
With Teeth still had a little effort put into the packaging. With the exception of one slightly odd edition, it was a digipak.
the surround sound dualdisc is 'slightly odd'? :P

Halo Infinity
11-16-2019, 09:23 PM
Point is everyone has a choice to listen to their music on vinyl or CD or streaming or even cassettes. There's no right or wrong way to listen to music. I just don't get into the whole "I like vinyl and people who listen to CDs suck" or "I have CDs and vinyl people suck" arguments.
Absolutely. I've also seen this happen in real life a few times. I actually know somebody that looks as CDs with so much disdain, while acting like vinyl always makes people cooler/better.

On the other hand it's still nothing compared to people basically telling me. "Ha! Ha! You still care about physical media! Ha! Ha! Get with the times dude! Why are you wasting money on such pointless bullshit? Everything's for free on the Internet anyway. Hey everybody! Look at this dumb fuck still buying music. What an ass!"

Even though that's not exactly what they said verbatim, they might as well have worded it that way. And not that it's happened in a while, but this was even way before the late 2000s.

And even now, I still sometimes notice people taking the piss on people that enjoy collecting physical media.

As for me, I feel the same way, and the more formats available, the better. I'm also always for letting people enjoy whatever they format they like in peace.


i'm all about letting people enjoy what they enjoy. as long as it's not hurting anyone, who gives a shit?
people in chicago flip out if you wanna put ketchup on your hot dog (i never put anything but cheese on a dog so it's a non-issue for me) and it's just like...who fucking cares? how does it affect you when someone puts a certain thing on their food? are they making you eat it? no? then shut up about it.
the same thing applies to format preference. "you like vinyl? cool! hope you enjoy listening to your records. do you catalog them?" "you like CDs? cool! do you have any cool box sets?"
it's so much easier to be nice and excited for someone but so many people choose to be dicks and i just don't get it. /rant
Thank you. This is exactly what I also had in mind. I know I also shouldn't care, but being dissed and even nagged at for preferences that don't even hurt anybody and myself always bothered me.

With that being said, as far as hot dogs go, I've always been a ketchup and mustard person myself. :)

jmtd
11-18-2019, 04:15 AM
the surround sound dualdisc is 'slightly odd'? :P

I kinda think so, because it was a "tour edition", but I never saw it on sale during those tours, nor ever in a UK or EU record store. It's a jewel case which is pretty unusual for NIN releases (not unheard of, sure, but not that common). It wasn't really pushed as a deluxe product despite having hi-res and surround sound. The artwork is also only subtly different to the normal album, you have to be in the know to realise it's something different (until you crack it open and see two discs, of course.) So yeah, for all of those reasons I think it's slightly odd :-)

Since I've posted again here, I'll write the following, which I didn't feel needed a post all on its own, so it can sidecar the above.

I'm sorry if anything I wrote has come across as elitists or looking down on a particular format or those who like it. I personally collect music in all formats, I don't look down on any format. Ultimately what matters is the music, and even if the fidelity of great music is not perfect, it doesn't matter so much to me. So much of my life was spent listening to stuff on cassette or low bitrate MP3 or transcoded back and forth to ATRAC on Minidisc anyways. Specifically about vinyl: I've been collecting vinyl for over 20 years. Before it was cool, kids! I am under no illusions as to its pros and cons. And cons it does have, especially in the fidelity dept. That's not why I buy vinyl. (I tend to only buy second hand vinyl, but not exclusively. It's not my preferred way to experience new music). CDs have pros and cons. The packaging sure is a con. The fidelity sure is a pro: 16/44.1 is more than enough for anything, for anyone, forever. My top complaint about CDs is more of a niche technical thing, and it's limitations around the way that the error correction works, that drives have random and unpredictable sample offsets so it's very hard to actually prove you ripped the data off a CD perfectly, which in the modern digital era is a pest. I hate ripping CDs. Also jewel cases are awful, awful things. Put all these things aside, and what remains is the music we all love. Peace!

cdm
11-18-2019, 08:33 AM
There's been a lot of talk about how the Tool album is proof that cds are alive and well. There are flaws with that argument:

We don't know how many units actually sold. All we know is, for a time, there was a shortage. The only sales figure we've seen combine digital and physical.
We don't know how many sales were driven purely due to the screen / physical package opposed to the media. I suspect a lot. Anecdotally, everyone I know bought for the screen and it's collectability.
Related to that, as others have said, for a time it was the only way to get a physical package.


Innovative and elaborate packaging is awesome when done well. For a lot of people, me included, it adds to the experience and makes it memorable. It is not, however, a good indicator of the health of a media.

BRoswell
11-18-2019, 09:17 AM
Also, Tool has a pretty rabid fanbase, and they hadn't released a new album in thirteen years, so it's no surprise people snatched it up any way they could.

eversonpoe
11-18-2019, 10:01 AM
I kinda think so, because it was a "tour edition", but I never saw it on sale during those tours, nor ever in a UK or EU record store. It's a jewel case which is pretty unusual for NIN releases (not unheard of, sure, but not that common). It wasn't really pushed as a deluxe product despite having hi-res and surround sound. The artwork is also only subtly different to the normal album, you have to be in the know to realise it's something different (until you crack it open and see two discs, of course.) So yeah, for all of those reasons I think it's slightly odd :-)

man, i didn't even realize that existed. i was over here thinking like "uh...what the heck is this malarkey?" the US dualdisc is in a digipack much like the standard CD release so i had no idea there was an EU edition with a dualdisc AND a CD in a jewel case. i would definitely agree with you that that's "slightly odd."

allegate
11-18-2019, 12:03 PM
I kinda think so, because it was a "tour edition", but I never saw it on sale during those tours, nor ever in a UK or EU record store. It's a jewel case which is pretty unusual for NIN releases (not unheard of, sure, but not that common). It wasn't really pushed as a deluxe product despite having hi-res and surround sound. The artwork is also only subtly different to the normal album, you have to be in the know to realise it's something different (until you crack it open and see two discs, of course.) So yeah, for all of those reasons I think it's slightly odd :-)

Since I've posted again here, I'll write the following, which I didn't feel needed a post all on its own, so it can sidecar the above.

I'm sorry if anything I wrote has come across as elitists or looking down on a particular format or those who like it. I personally collect music in all formats, I don't look down on any format. Ultimately what matters is the music, and even if the fidelity of great music is not perfect, it doesn't matter so much to me. So much of my life was spent listening to stuff on cassette or low bitrate MP3 or transcoded back and forth to ATRAC on Minidisc anyways. Specifically about vinyl: I've been collecting vinyl for over 20 years. Before it was cool, kids! I am under no illusions as to its pros and cons. And cons it does have, especially in the fidelity dept. That's not why I buy vinyl. (I tend to only buy second hand vinyl, but not exclusively. It's not my preferred way to experience new music). CDs have pros and cons. The packaging sure is a con. The fidelity sure is a pro: 16/44.1 is more than enough for anything, for anyone, forever. My top complaint about CDs is more of a niche technical thing, and it's limitations around the way that the error correction works, that drives have random and unpredictable sample offsets so it's very hard to actually prove you ripped the data off a CD perfectly, which in the modern digital era is a pest. I hate ripping CDs. Also jewel cases are awful, awful things. Put all these things aside, and what remains is the music we all love. Peace!
Huh. I've only ever seen the US version of WT so that's new to me. Weird.

Also kind of against the grain of what makes a DualDisc a...well...DualDisc.

eversonpoe
11-18-2019, 03:07 PM
Huh. I've only ever seen the US version of WT so that's new to me. Weird.

Also kind of against the grain of what makes a DualDisc a...well...DualDisc.

yeah the album also being on CD in there seems a bit* redundant...

*100%

jmtd
11-18-2019, 04:55 PM
the second disc in the tour edition wasnít dual disc iirc, it was just DVD-A.

allegate
11-18-2019, 06:01 PM
the second disc in the tour edition wasn’t dual disc iirc, it was just DVD-A.
ah...so it was a literal dual disc instead of a DualDisc. I see.

;)

Prettybrokenspiral
11-18-2019, 07:18 PM
I have that WT tour edition. It's a CD of the album with Home as a bonus track, and a DVD-A with stereo and surround sound audio, THTF music video and an interactive discography sampler of all his stuff up to that point, excluding PHM and its singles. Pretty cool release if you can manage to track one down..

chuckrh
11-18-2019, 07:46 PM
I have that WT tour edition. It's a CD of the album with Home as a bonus track, and a DVD-A with stereo and surround sound audio, THTF music video and an interactive discography sampler of all his stuff up to that point, excluding PHM and its singles. Pretty cool release if you can manage to track one down..

i found a used copy recently for a reasonable price. i like surround sound stuff & it sounds great!

allegate
11-18-2019, 11:08 PM
found one for $6...don't know why I ordered it but I did. I mean I have the DualDisc still so wtf.

eversonpoe
11-19-2019, 12:22 AM
the second disc in the tour edition wasnít dual disc iirc, it was just DVD-A.


ah...so it was a literal dual disc instead of a DualDisc. I see.

;)

ohhhhh ok that's way less weird than i thought it was

jmtd
11-19-2019, 05:37 AM
I never got around to ripping the DVD-A and now it's in my loft. Can anyone elucidate what the bitrate is for the stereo mix, and/or the surround mix please? nin.wiki doesn't (yet) know either. TIA! (I need to make a loft trip soon)

eversonpoe
11-19-2019, 09:13 AM
I never got around to ripping the DVD-A and now it's in my loft. Can anyone elucidate what the bitrate is for the stereo mix, and/or the surround mix please? nin.wiki doesn't (yet) know either. TIA! (I need to make a loft trip soon)

48kHz sample rate for both
stereo bitrate is 192kbps
surround is 448kbps

also nice to know my PS3 will actually play dualdiscs!

allegate
11-19-2019, 10:38 AM
I'll check out the DVDA stuff when I get home, I have a...*cough*...way to check that.
eversonpoe - the PS3 will play the DVD data but it also has DVDA which only certain players (and ripping software) can read. It's a format called MLP which ostensibly should be a higher bitrate than the Dolby but it's not always the case.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-19-2019, 12:31 PM
My preference for Witha Teetha is the European CD version....You get 'Home' and 'Right Where It Belongs-Piano version' as bonus tracks. Its quite delish

eversonpoe
11-19-2019, 02:09 PM
I'll check out the DVDA stuff when I get home, I have a...*cough*...way to check that.
@eversonpoe (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) - the PS3 will play the DVD data but it also has DVDA which only certain players (and ripping software) can read. It's a format called MLP which ostensibly should be a higher bitrate than the Dolby but it's not always the case.

ah, yes. i have an old pioneer elite DVD player that'll do DVD-A. i should dig that out some time...

Prettybrokenspiral
11-19-2019, 06:10 PM
https://www.discogs.com/Nine-Inch-Nails-Right-Where-He-Belongs/release/4025467

Scooped up this rare-as-all-fuck gem on Discogs the moment it hit my wantlist last night. Minty fresh and factory sealed. Such epic renditions across those two nights. I wish he'd do more stuff like this and the Still stuff..

Demogorgon
11-19-2019, 06:13 PM
How's the quality? I have an old digital download of the event and the quality is iffy. Always wanted to find something cleaner.

Prettybrokenspiral
11-19-2019, 07:51 PM
It's coming from Italy so I won't know for at least a few weeks, I reckon..

Isn't there a CD bootleg of those shows out there somewhere? I know there's that one for the radio sessions they did with Peter Murphy that like never shows up for sale online..

armogi
11-19-2019, 09:05 PM
https://www.discogs.com/Nine-Inch-Nails-Right-Where-He-Belongs/release/4025467

Scooped up this rare-as-all-fuck gem on Discogs the moment it hit my wantlist last night. Minty fresh and factory sealed. Such epic renditions across those two nights. I wish he'd do more stuff like this and the Still stuff..

Nice, discogs doesn't allow cd bootlegs but vinyl ones are fine, go figure...

jmtd
11-20-2019, 04:18 AM
I'm still amazed that vinyl bootlegs show up regularly in "reputable" high street stores now

MrLobster
11-20-2019, 04:35 AM
Nice, discogs doesn't allow cd bootlegs but vinyl ones are fine, go figure...

Any bootlegs aren't allowed, this one will get squashed soon enough (I have some vinyl releases that got themselves delisted).

MrLobster
11-20-2019, 04:36 AM
I'm still amazed that vinyl bootlegs show up regularly in "reputable" high street stores now

Generally it reduces my trust in a particular store when I notice that...

ltrandazzo
11-20-2019, 06:40 AM
Poopy diaper time for me - my preorders from Amazon went from those Monday dates to the Wednesdays to now saying no estimate available. Super confusing since I preordered all three together at the same time. Ugh.

charleswise
11-20-2019, 07:41 AM
Poopy diaper time for me - my preorders from Amazon went from those Monday dates to the Wednesdays to now saying no estimate available. Super confusing since I preordered all three together at the same time. Ugh.

This happened to me as well. I ordered all three day the email went out. Received volume 1 on release day. I also noticed there are new listings on Amazon for volumes 2 and 3 that still show release day as shipping date. I preordered those in case the are just relisting with new release dates instead of updating the initial listings.

allegate
11-20-2019, 08:39 AM
Stereo:
https://i.imgur.com/Jq7SehR.png

Surround:
https://i.imgur.com/SyMnmNC.png

Sounds great on my hi-res player.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-20-2019, 12:09 PM
There is actually SBD versions of 'Fragile' and 'Hurt' from one of the 2006 Bridge School shows floating around. Nice compliment to the AUD recording

TheBang
11-24-2019, 02:22 AM
It's coming from Italy so I won't know for at least a few weeks, I reckon..

Isn't there a CD bootleg of those shows out there somewhere?
It's gotta be just a copy of this audience recording, right?

http://ninlive.com/shows/2006/20061021.html


There is actually SBD versions of 'Fragile' and 'Hurt' from one of the 2006 Bridge School shows floating around. Nice compliment to the AUD recording
Not just "floating around." Please buy it: https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-bridge-school-collection-vol-4-live/340492391

Helpmeiaminhell
11-24-2019, 12:22 PM
https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-bridge-school-collection-vol-4-live/340492391[/URL]

I did buy it (along with the Ministry songs) like a decade ago. Didn't realize they were still on itune all these years later....Wish they'd release the whole set

NotoriousTIMP
11-24-2019, 01:11 PM
jesus, do none of you guys have a CD burner?

piggy
11-24-2019, 10:51 PM
I do, personally, but a lot of people actually don't. Plenty of people only have laptops and the optical drives in those are disappearing.

allegate
11-25-2019, 09:54 AM
Yeah I was just pricing some black friday desktops and most of them didn't have drives installed, nor did they have bays to put one if you wanted to.

tony.parente
11-25-2019, 11:20 AM
I think its super duper rad that vinyl is making a huge comeback. I also fully agree with Trent releasing music on vinyl and not CD anymore. Why release it on a superior audio format like CD when you can listen to the cool clean *CLICK* *CLICK* *POP* *CLICK* of vinyl...It illuminates the listening experience man..Like when you feel the vinyl in your hands and caress the sleeve and just sit back and let your record player do the work. *CLICK* *CLICK* *POP*....So much better than a crystal clear sounding CD.....Its just so stupid to release your art on a superior format when you can release it on an outdated format that was rendered obsolete by 1983. I think movie studios should follow Trent's lead. Why release movies on blu ray or 4KHD anymore when you can release them on VHS and Betamax instead?

https://a0.amlimg.com/N2Y4ZjMyMjg0Mzg1ZDhiOGJjNWExY2UzMjllODg4YzOFCGYtg3 iyHsrOl9xHGWM6aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmFkc2ltZy5jb20vMThh ZDk4YjdjMzUwZDJmZTE3NDdmZjUxYjdhNDZiYjkxMjM1MGI2MT cyODdlMjc3YTZjMmZiMDhiYWYzNjg3ZC5qcGd8fHx8fHw0NTB4 MzM4fGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWR2ZXJ0cy5pZS9zdGF0aWMvaS93YX Rlcm1hcmsucG5nfHx8.jpghttps://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2222/0805/products/22613140_393x@3x.progressive.jpg?v=1556026940

Halo Infinity
11-28-2019, 09:01 AM
I forgot to respond to some points made about not listening to CDs regularly or enjoying entertainment without physical media.

I like to make this comparison with VHS and DVDs. While I can certainly enjoy video on my computer and phone, what I like about VHS and DVD for actual TV shows and movies is that it feels like I'm experiencing it in a way where as if I was watching on the air as it was intended to be on an actual TV. At the same time though, I usually tend to collect TV shows and movies that I've enjoyed over and over again, so it wasn't always just because it's on a disc or a tape.

That's how I look at it whenever I've used cassettes, CDs and vinyl.

If I had a better set-up or a decent set-up, I'm sure I'd use my CDs a lot more too. (Unfortunately, the CD players on stereos stopped working and I just don't have really great speakers for CDs right now.)

It's obviously "an ancient relic of the past", but I still get a certain amount of overall satisfaction and enjoyment out of a good stereo, especially when combined with the surround sound of an actual TV, or video game system.

It was such a blast doing that on the Deluxe Edition of The Downward Spiral on SACD. Threads like these also make me miss my portable CD players over the past decade or so.

Swykk
11-28-2019, 09:31 AM
jesus, do none of you guys have a CD burner?

Jesus, for the millionth time, we like artwork and physical media too.

One more time, with feeling: If TR went the other way and decided vinyl was not a format he’d be using anymore, you all would be doing the EXACT SAME THING we CD folks are.

BRoswell
11-28-2019, 12:51 PM
One more time, with feeling: If TR went the other way and decided vinyl was not a format he’d be using anymore, you all would be doing the EXACT SAME THING we CD folks are.

Nope, because I'm not a vinyl collector. I just respect that it's their art, and if they feel that it's best represented on vinyl, so be it. If I can't buy it digitally, I'm going to steal it, because it's clear that they're not exactly concerned about doing that. If they were, they'd make it available.

Tom
11-28-2019, 12:51 PM
One more time, with feeling: If TR went the other way and decided vinyl was not a format heíd be using anymore, you all would be doing the EXACT SAME THING we CD folks are.
Nah. I can only speak for myself, but so long as they make the files available I'm happy - vinyl is a (really nice) bonus.

paul_guyet
11-28-2019, 02:05 PM
It's gotta be just a copy of this audience recording, right?

http://ninlive.com/shows/2006/20061021.html


Not just "floating around." Please buy it: https://music.apple.com/us/album/the-bridge-school-collection-vol-4-live/340492391I'm curious as to where that recording of TDTWWA came from as they didn't play that at either of the Bridge School nights.

Reaps
11-28-2019, 04:56 PM
I've never heard NIN on vinyl..ever. Have i missed anything?

nmitchell86
11-28-2019, 11:59 PM
I've never heard NIN on vinyl..ever. Have i missed anything?

Ohh yeah, you gotta experience it, with your fucking phone turned off!

nmitchell86
11-29-2019, 12:08 AM
Jesus, for the millionth time, we like artwork and physical media too.

One more time, with feeling: If TR went the other way and decided vinyl was not a format heíd be using anymore, you all would be doing the EXACT SAME THING we CD folks are.

I like both CD and vinyl. CD's are great for the Jeep and the vinyl has a nice warm sound, (at least on my set up.) I still play CD's on the HiFi too, I have a huge collection (gen X'er here.) But I have a nice connection to vinyl as in HS my brother and I where into the DJ scene. I wouldn't back scratch on my uTurn belt drive TT but listening to vinyl takes me back to my younger days for sure. So yes, I'm the guy that would buy both formats, hands down no problem.

On a side note, should this thread be moved to somewhere more visible? It's a little weird buries in the score sectionÖ just my opinion.

neorev
11-29-2019, 01:16 PM
As cool as the Definitive Edition of The Fragile is, I still prefer the mixed/blended original CD version, though I do hate how 10 Miles High cuts out after the intro. 10 Miles High is one of my favorite Fragile era tracks. The way the album tracks flow into each other, it really adds to the whole journey feel, which I feel is kinda missing in the vinyl edition and its constant breaks between tracks. I wish Trent would do a CD continuous mix kinda version but also include 10 Miles High, The New Flesh, and Appendage. ;)

paul_guyet
11-29-2019, 02:09 PM
I've never heard NIN on vinyl..ever. Have i missed anything?As someone who's a fan of NIN, and has listened to them on EVERYTHING (except cassettes. fuck cassettes), I actually do find a fuller, deeper sound when listening to good vinyl on good headphones. The sonic elements seem to have...I don't know...more space, is the best way I can put it.

But, however TR decides to release his music, I'm going to find a way to listen. I don't care what format it's on.

Again, except cassettes.

Fuck cassettes.

Magnetic
11-29-2019, 03:12 PM
Aww, they still have their place...in memories. I still remember lying next to my cd/cassette player in the dark listening to my dubbed PHM cassette. I think that was the only thing I listened to for a solid month.

Tom
11-29-2019, 03:51 PM
Cassettes weren't really given a fair shake - most cassette decks were not particularly good, and pre-recorded cassettes were not good either. However, a home recorded cassette made on a decent deck can sound really rather nice.

As an aside, I'm actually quite sceptical about the longevity of the vinyl revival for similar reasons - a lot of the decks that have been flying off the shelves as part of the recent boom are pretty terrible Crosley-type machines, while the pressing quality of a lot of new vinyl is pretty iffy. Once the novelty wears off I suspect a lot of people will decide that actually their vinyl rigs sound inferior and will lose interest. A shame, because - like cassette - when it's done well it sounds fantastic.

gorast
11-29-2019, 05:42 PM
As cool as the Definitive Edition of The Fragile is, I still prefer the mixed/blended original CD version, though I do hate how 10 Miles High cuts out after the intro. 10 Miles High is one of my favorite Fragile era tracks. The way the album tracks flow into each other, it really adds to the whole journey feel, which I feel is kinda missing in the vinyl edition and its constant breaks between tracks. I wish Trent would do a CD continuous mix kinda version but also include 10 Miles High, The New Flesh, and Appendage. ;)

As much as I love the DE reissues, I think The Fragile in particular would be a great candidate for a truly definitive digital/CD release that has the full vinyl track list +appendage, uses the extended versions of the songs from the vinyl, keeps the Decay half of Ripe, and retains the CD crossfades.

Almost certainly just a pipe dream at this point, but why not dream?

Helpmeiaminhell
11-29-2019, 05:55 PM
Theres a reason CDs obliterated vinyl in the 80s/90s. They sound better. They are less expensive. They take up less space. None of those things have changed with the vinyl "resurgence". Eventually people will lose interest in vinyl and this resurgence will slowly fizzle out. Heed my words. 5 years from now vinyl will be on the back burner and CDs will once again reign supreme. I already have several friends who jumped into vinyl head first 2 or 3 years ago and they already got burned out with it

Take this Bird Box vinyl for instance. 80 bucks for the vinyl plus another 60 bucks for shipping in some cases. 140 dollars for something that also takes up several feet of space. For the grand old price of 20 dollars you could have a double CD that takes up 10 inches of space that sounds better....

The artists that seem to be doing "vinyl only" are boomer Neil Young types and the artists who seem to do "streaming only" are mumble rappers and pop artists. Trent seems to be stuck in the middle. His apple friends wrongly told him CDs are dead and the aging Gen X'er in him once again has a hard on for vinyl. It still blows my mind the narrative vinyl is in and CDs are out lmao. In 2019 CDs outsold vinyl by 116%. CDs at their lowest and vinyl at its peak and its still not even an issue. Its just niche collecting. I guarantee half these NIN fans on this forum slobbering all over their vinyl weren't even listening to vinyl 10 years ago until master Trent told them its cool. I just hope Trent isn't stupid enough to release future NIN albums on vinyl only because that would be a fucking disgrace.

Leviathant
11-29-2019, 06:10 PM
His apple friends wrongly told him CDs are dead

His "friends" that told him CDs are dead are probably his accountants, dude. Spreadsheets are hard to argue with.

Nine Inch Nails fans have always been ahead of the tech curve - NIN's CD sales dropped off as digital downloads and streaming were simplified. No one at Apple had to tell Trent that, he could see it himself on Oink and What and on Napster before that.


I guarantee half these NIN fans on this forum slobbering all over their vinyl weren't even listening to vinyl 10 years ago until master Trent told them its cool.

Ten years ago? In 2009, if you wanted a copy of The Fragile on vinyl, you paid about $300. Year Zero, YZR, The Slip, and Ghosts had all been released on vinyl and selling well in that medium. It's not that people didn't like vinyl, it's that it wasn't financially accessible to most fans. While I suspect that vinyl sales took a hit in the 90s because that's what happened everywhere, by 1999, NIN fans were actively seeking out vinyl, whether or not Trent told his stories of listening to LPs as a kid. You've crafted a narrative in your head that doesn't follow reality, dude.

I don't know if the vinyl compulsion will continue - these things take up a lot of space, and let's not even talk about the sustainability issues behind the manufacturing - but CDs are not coming back.

Tom
11-29-2019, 06:22 PM
Theres a reason CDs obliterated vinyl in the 80s/90s. They sound better. They are less expensive. They take up less space. None of those things have changed with the vinyl "resurgence". Eventually people will lose interest in vinyl and this resurgence will slowly fizzle out. Heed my words. 5 years from now vinyl will be on the back burner and CDs will once again reign supreme. I already have several friends who jumped into vinyl head first 2 or 3 years ago and they already got burned out with it

Take this Bird Box vinyl for instance. 80 bucks for the vinyl plus another 60 bucks for shipping in some cases. 140 dollars for something that also takes up several feet of space. For the grand old price of 20 dollars you could have a double CD that takes up 10 inches of space that sounds better....

The artists that seem to be doing "vinyl only" are boomer Neil Young types and the artists who seem to do "streaming only" are mumble rappers and pop artists. Trent seems to be stuck in the middle. His apple friends wrongly told him CDs are dead and the aging Gen X'er in him once again has a hard on for vinyl. It still blows my mind the narrative vinyl is in and CDs are out lmao. In 2019 CDs outsold vinyl by 116%. CDs at their lowest and vinyl at its peak and its still not even an issue. Its just niche collecting. I guarantee half these NIN fans on this forum slobbering all over their vinyl weren't even listening to vinyl 10 years ago until master Trent told them its cool. I just hope Trent isn't stupid enough to release future NIN albums on vinyl only because that be a disgrace.
Okay I'll bite.

'Sound better' is debatable. Speaking for myself, having invested pretty heavily in both digital and analogue playback, I can say that each does some things better than the other. What I think is true is that you don't need to spend so much to get CDs to sound passable. But why bother when you can have a digital media player which, in terms of sound, can wipe the floor with any comparably priced CD player. I do agree though, for the reasons I mentioned above, that the vinyl revival is more fragile than tends to be acknowledged. But I think your prediction that CDs will make a comeback is wildly optimistic, to say the least. I know how you feel though - I was a big fan of the minidisc :( It'll be interesting to see sales figures for 2019 - I'd expect a further contraction, but we'll see.

On vinyl only releases, actually they've been around for a long time and kept the pressing plants in business during the years when most people had abandoned the format. If it hadn't been for persistence of a small but robust market for vinyl only releases - mostly in electronic and experimental music - the infrastructure would not have existed for the revival to get going.

Toadflax
11-29-2019, 06:33 PM
Theres a reason CDs obliterated vinyl in the 80s/90s. They sound better. They are less expensive. They take up less space. None of those things have changed with the vinyl "resurgence". Eventually people will lose interest in vinyl and this resurgence will slowly fizzle out. Heed my words. 5 years from now vinyl will be on the back burner and CDs will once again reign supreme.

Okay, but you forgot about the part where CDs were the best way to listen to music on the go back then, which isn't the case anymore. A lot of people don't care about collecting a physical medium these days; they just want to listen to music, and streaming lets them do that. I have no idea what the state of vinyl will be in 5 years, but there is no way CDs will "reign supreme" ever again. They may even become the #1 physical medium again, but everything from paperwork, money, music, books, movies and video games is being moved to digital these days and will continue doing so.

Shit, I don't know if I know a single person who buys CDs on a regular basis anymore. I know a handful of people who collect vinyl, but I'd say 90% of my friends haven't purchased music in physical form in a few years.

zaps30
11-29-2019, 06:43 PM
If it's a band I really like, I usually by a copy on CD and a copy on vinyl. Otherwise, just CD...or digital if that's the only option. I prefer to have something official though. Of course, then I end up adding them to my portable blu-tooth player.

Tom
11-29-2019, 06:58 PM
On the topic of TR and vinyl only releases, worth noting that the very first nine inch nails release was initially vinyl only. DII was originally issued just as a 12" - which, as early interviews make clear, was TR's plan. The CD version of DII was released after the release if PHM to capitalise on its success.

nmitchell86
11-29-2019, 07:36 PM
To everyone on this thread, I think we are on the same page here in how we feel overall for the most part. But...

I will say a lot of people are starting to realize that "Digital Only" is not all that it's cracked up to be. Case in point... all the people that have lost digital movies and music in services like Apple and Amazon due to licensing issues. Games on PlayStation and Xbox for the same reason. Hell, not everything makes it to the digital services anyways. Having the physical medium is the only full prof way to ensure you can continue to enjoy what you bought. I understand the reasoning behind digital only but, what you're really buying there is an extended license (for how ever long that lasts.)

As for vinyl and CD, I'm the fuckit kind of consumer. I'll buy both if available or either or. I really don't care, whatever is available. I am a product of the 90's and have always had both CD's and vinyl (partly because I was into the DJ scene) even tapes (but seriously, fuck tapes, I've had to many tapes "eaten" even on nice clean tape decks.) Tapes can sound good but way to many moving parts to be reliable... Anyways back to my point... CD's are great for the car and vinyl sounds great on my HiFi but I'll play CD's on my HiFi system as well and I'll stream stuff because I don't have everything (although I wish I did, haha.) All the technical issues aside between CDs and vinyl can be overcome by proper care, cleaning/ handling and usage. It goes both ways (ever hear a CD skip?) I will say I treat burned CD's like shit as I can recreate it. Official bought CDs, I treat them like GOLD just like my vinyl, very carful to not scratch them. Digital is convent but not forever (unless you download your purchases and upload them to a paid cloud service so you never have to worry about a failed hard drive because you give a shit about what you bought. Of course anyone who's doing that would treat vinyl and CDs appropriately because, they give a shit.)

On side note, do I use to many parenthesis?

I think the real conversation here should not be between CD and vinyl and which is better but, physical and digital and how that will work for you.

Magnetic
11-29-2019, 08:38 PM
My question here: Why can't we buy a book of artwork and a digital download? If the physical artwork is so important (and I happen to agree - I miss the days of leafing through the cd artwork), why the hell can't the physical artwork be sold at an LP scale in addition to the download? This way you have high quality sound combined with the physical element which wouldn't be as damaged as vinyl? The books would tolerate delivery better, non? This negates the elitist mindset that I think the vinyl route has. I have neither the money nor the space nor the time for vinyl - sue me: it isn't compatible with my life. Yet I do miss the moments in time I have for contemplative listening with a physical component. But I'm not beholden to CDs, nor do I think streaming is the way forward for artists like NIN. Give me another option. There has to be a middle ground.

Senateguard33
11-29-2019, 09:47 PM
In fairness, favorite band or not, there are some pretty significant entry barriers to the medium. Cost of the albums themselves, a decent player that won't ruin your collection, the rest of the setup to get the sound from your player to your ears. Storage considerations of the vinyl itself, a place to put your setup in your house. Not to mention it can be somewhat intimidating / overwhelming for some new to the medium. This isn't an argument against vinyl but I can understand why some haven't jumped in.

Those are all excellent points.

However, if one buys a vinyl with a digital download, a CD isn't really needed. With the NIN related releases, you can also get a high quality FLAC or WAV download. One could listen to the files, and use the vinyl as the physical package.

What it boils down to is the CD potentially being a cheaper option, but it doesn't give you any benefits that the vinyl/digital package doesn't already have.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-29-2019, 10:49 PM
but CDs are not coming back.

CDs never went away. Outsold vinyl by 116% this year. CDs will NEVER turn into cassettes or even VHS and become obsolete. They may slide but even at their lowest selling, they still sell the most units. Nice Billboard article about how labels are rethinking CDs.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8530043/cd-sales-retail-label-strategy-taylor-swift-tool-physical-music

A couple of years ago all we heard about was how blu rays are obsolete and streaming is everything. Now you hear more and more about film collectors collecting blu rays because they prefer physical media. Eventually the same will happen with music. The masses will eventually realize what hardcore collectors already know. That physical media is important. The love for physical media will never go away from hardcore film/music collectors. That is why DVD/CD/Blu Ray and yes vinyl will always have a market because there will always be enough hardcore music/film collectors who want the physical product.

The real battle shouldn't be CD vs Vinyl. It should be physical media Vs streaming......I cant take someone serious who tells me they are a Joy Division fan and their entire Joy Division collection is on a fucking icloud. gtfo

The people buying CDs in 2019 are no different than the people buying vinyl in 2019. They are mostly hardcore music collectors who prefer physical media as their main preference....The casual music fans are the ones who bailed on CD and don't listen to vinyl and who flocked to streaming as their main preference (For the most part. Some serious collectors may prefer digital because it takes up less space/they travel a lot but the majority of stream 1st people are casual music fans)

Tom
11-30-2019, 01:47 AM
The real battle shouldn't be CD vs Vinyl. It should be physical media Vs streaming......I cant take someone serious who tells me they are a Joy Division fan and their entire Joy Division collection is on a fucking icloud. gtfo

The people buying CDs in 2019 are no different than the people buying vinyl in 2019. They are mostly hardcore music collectors who prefer physical media as their main preference....The casual music fans are the ones who bailed on CD and don't listen to vinyl and who flocked to streaming as their main preference (For the most part. Some serious collectors may prefer digital because it takes up less space/they travel a lot but the majority of stream 1st people are casual music fans)
Actually, despite your repeated attempts to stoke one, there shouldn't be any kind of battle at all. It doesn't really matter what you can or can't take seriously. Collectors of physical media do not exhaust the pool of people for whom music is a hugely important part of their lives. I know plenty of serious music lovers who stream more or less exclusively. Physical media is a fetish - one I willingly partake in, but a fetish all the same. It used to be the only way that people could access the music they loved, and so it wasn't just supported by folks like me that also like physical things. But now there are more convenient options, and so the fetishists are being left behind. Denigrating people who prefer streaming as "casuals" is both insulting and inaccurate. Your claims about the future of CDs sales are pretty wild - sure, they probably won't go away, but will they bounce back? Almost certainly not, precisely because these days you can be a serious music lover without having to amass a collection of shiny plastic discs (or anything else).

jmtd
11-30-2019, 03:56 AM
Computers rarely have CD drives built in anymore. Hifi CD players have been a niche product for decades already. I'm fairly sure CD walkmans haven't been manufactured for years. Sure you can buy affordable USB CD drives. I do. But I don't know anyone else in person who does. CDs are on an inevitable decline into obscurity.

Magnetic
11-30-2019, 07:13 AM
......I cant take someone serious who tells me they are a Joy Division fan and their entire Joy Division collection is on a fucking icloud. gtfo



Really?? It's this kind of elitist crap that I can't stand.

Not everyone has tightly knit lives that afford the space for physical media.
I'm thankful for digital because I lost all of my physical components about 10 moves ago. Just because I don't have a stack of CDs or vinyl doesn't make me any less of a fan of any band.

BRoswell
11-30-2019, 08:58 AM
CDs will NEVER turn into cassettes or even VHS and become obsolete.

Then why are computer companies beginning to remove optical drives from their units?

I'm not saying that CDs are about to suddenly blink out of existence, but to say that they're not on a decline is silly.

Max
11-30-2019, 09:03 AM
CDs never went away. Outsold vinyl by 116% this year. CDs will NEVER turn into cassettes or even VHS and become obsolete. They may slide but even at their lowest selling, they still sell the most units. Nice Billboard article about how labels are rethinking CDs.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8530043/cd-sales-retail-label-strategy-taylor-swift-tool-physical-music

A couple of years ago all we heard about was how blu rays are obsolete and streaming is everything. Now you hear more and more about film collectors collecting blu rays because they prefer physical media. Eventually the same will happen with music. The masses will eventually realize what hardcore collectors already know. That physical media is important. The love for physical media will never go away from hardcore film/music collectors. That is why DVD/CD/Blu Ray and yes vinyl will always have a market because there will always be enough hardcore music/film collectors who want the physical product.

The real battle shouldn't be CD vs Vinyl. It should be physical media Vs streaming......I cant take someone serious who tells me they are a Joy Division fan and their entire Joy Division collection is on a fucking icloud. gtfo

The people buying CDs in 2019 are no different than the people buying vinyl in 2019. They are mostly hardcore music collectors who prefer physical media as their main preference....The casual music fans are the ones who bailed on CD and don't listen to vinyl and who flocked to streaming as their main preference (For the most part. Some serious collectors may prefer digital because it takes up less space/they travel a lot but the majority of stream 1st people are casual music fans)

CD makes no sense. Digital FLAC files are better sound quality and vinyl has superior artwork. CDís should go away. Trent offers the best by giving you both for one price. He understands the best that each format offers and is giving his art the best platform possible.

Max
11-30-2019, 11:47 AM
One more thought about this - every artist cares about HOW their work is received. A painter doesnít want their painting hung up in a Wendyís bathroom in Macon, GA. An actor wants you to see their film on the big screen, not in a degraded mp4 on a flip phone.

is Trent some kind of pretentious asshole for caring about the medium that his work is presented on? No, heís an artist, which is why most of us are here. Otherwise weíd be listening to streaming singles from the latest pop one hit wonder entertainer. Thatís not who we are though. we came for the art. So show some respect for the artist. If you canít afford everything, great. Me neither. Thatís okay. Donít like the medium? Accept it. Find another artist to love if this isnít your thing.

its not all about consumerism. Itís about art. Gripe and moan or let yourself be challenged and taken on a journey. I choose the latter.

Jon
11-30-2019, 12:00 PM
The real battle shouldn't be CD vs Vinyl. It should be physical media Vs streaming......I cant take someone serious who tells me they are a Joy Division fan and their entire Joy Division collection is on a fucking icloud. gtfo


Really?? It's this kind of elitist crap that I can't stand.

Not everyone has tightly knit lives that afford the space for physical media.
I'm thankful for digital because I lost all of my physical components about 10 moves ago. Just because I don't have a stack of CDs or vinyl doesn't make me any less of a fan of any band.

Yeah, that's trash gatekeeping logic. It's the "I own everything released by a band and have seen them live 420 times, so that makes me the biggest fan" argument.

I couldn't tell you Trent Reznor's birthday off the top of my head. Guess I'll go lurk BTS forums.

jmtd
11-30-2019, 12:15 PM
CD makes no sense. Digital FLAC files are better sound quality

Not true.

Helpmeiaminhell
11-30-2019, 01:13 PM
Then why are computer companies beginning to remove optical drives from their units?

I'm not saying that CDs are about to suddenly blink out of existence, but to say that they're not on a decline is silly.

They are definitely on the decline. But they will never go the way of Betamax/cassette/VHS where it becomes obsolete.....The worst case scenario for CDs is they may turn into what vinyl turned into in the 90s. On the decline but still with enough of a market to never go away

Leviathant
11-30-2019, 02:53 PM
They are definitely on the decline. But they will never go the way of Betamax/cassette/VHS where it becomes obsolete.....The worst case scenario for CDs is they may turn into what vinyl turned into in the 90s. On the decline but still with enough of a market to never go away

Don't quote me and say "CDs never went away" - according to the RIAA, there were about as many CDs sold in 2018 as there were in 1987 (http://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_12950_cd_sales_in_the_us_n.jpg).

Also folks, you can't just say "FLACs sound better than CDs" - many FLACs are CD rips, and are identical to CDs. Some FLACs have better fidelity, and in some cases that's the end result of a new transfer with modern mastering, but it's got nothing to do with the format itself.

BenAkenobi
12-01-2019, 01:12 AM
Yeah, FLAC is a container. It can be 11 kHz mono cellphone recording of mp3-sourced cassette playing in car.
CD is a container that can sound the same - only in above example it will upscale 11 kHz to 44 and play mono on 2 channels.
Medium itself is no guarantee of fidelity.

It's shame that neither DVDs nor BluRays turned into consumer-friendly music format, though.

I'd love to be able to play Ultimate Definitive The Fragile (or, realistically, just Deviations which, ahem, exists. Or Ghosts. Or Dragon Tattoo. Or fucking Stadium Arcadium) through without changing discs. I promise to turn off my fucking phone.

Jon
12-01-2019, 09:33 AM
It's shame that neither DVDs nor BluRays turned into consumer-friendly music format, though.

This. I know quite a few people, myself included, that still burn DVD's and BR's of hi-res music.

StockAvuryah
12-01-2019, 06:15 PM
One more thought about this - every artist cares about HOW their work is received. A painter doesn’t want their painting hung up in a Wendy’s bathroom in Macon, GA. An actor wants you to see their film on the big screen, not in a degraded mp4 on a flip phone.

is Trent some kind of pretentious asshole for caring about the medium that his work is presented on? No, he’s an artist, which is why most of us are here. Otherwise we’d be listening to streaming singles from the latest pop one hit wonder entertainer. That’s not who we are though. we came for the art. So show some respect for the artist. If you can’t afford everything, great. Me neither. That’s okay. Don’t like the medium? Accept it. Find another artist to love if this isn’t your thing.

its not all about consumerism. It’s about art. Gripe and moan or let yourself be challenged and taken on a journey. I choose the latter.

Indeed. At the end of the day, it's art. It's between the artist, the piece, and the person who listens to it. The artist presents his creation a certain way, he drops it into the world. And then it's up to anyone to do whatever they want with it.

What's at the center of that ? The piece itself.

Whatever the way its presented is, accept it and appreciate it as an integral part of the art, or just take the music alone.

laststepdown
12-01-2019, 06:54 PM
I've never heard NIN on vinyl..ever. Have i missed anything?


I've been living in a cave for 3 decades. Never seen the sun before. Have I missed anything?

jmtd
12-01-2019, 11:31 PM
I've never heard NIN on vinyl..ever. Have i missed anything?

Once upon a time, unique mixes and stuff. Now not so much. Even my favourite THTF (photek dub mix) can be easily bought on digital services.

tony.parente
12-02-2019, 09:30 AM
Full disclosure, I haven't bought a CD in like 2 years - i've been exclusively vinyl because if i'm gonna get a physical piece of media i'm gonna get one that has artwork with more substance to it. Since (almost) everything is on streaming now I just use apple music to play it, hell my 2015 Jeep Renegade doesn't even have a CD player on it, and it was never an option to add one on to the vehicle. That being said not releasing your music on CD is fucking stupid. It's not like there is a $5000+ fee to cut the die before the plant can press CDs like on vinyl, it's not like there is a nationwide bottleneck when it comes to CD production like there is on vinyl, it's not like it's more expensive and riskier to ship and warehouse CDs like it is with vinyl. I could be ignorant but the idea of not releasing new music on CD and ONLY releasing it on vinyl (ie. deviations) is a personal choice.

I won't buy CDs anymore but they still matter.

eversonpoe
12-02-2019, 10:11 AM
...It's not like there is a $5000+ fee to cut the die before the plant can press CDs like on vinyl...

sorry, i know i'm being pedantic, but as someone who's gotten stuff pressed on vinyl, i needed to say this: it's only around $200-$500 to get the metal plating made for a single 12" record.

tony.parente
12-02-2019, 10:51 AM
sorry, i know i'm being pedantic, but as someone who's gotten stuff pressed on vinyl, i needed to say this: it's only around $200-$500 to get the metal plating made for a single 12" record.
Accidental extra zeros are stupid and make Tony look stupid lol

katara
12-02-2019, 10:51 AM
One more thought about this - every artist cares about HOW their work is received.
Not necessarily. For some artists, the medium that they work with is directly tied into the meaning of their art. For musicians, it really doesn't matter what that art presented on, unless you're making Hip Hop and want DJs to do some live vinyl scratching (which is a completely different art form, but I digress). For all intents and purposes, the music is either baked onto a big round thing, a small round thing, or it's digital. That object (or non-object) has no relation to the music whatsoever aside from being the means by which it's delivered to the audience's ears.


A painter doesn’t want their painting hung up in a Wendy’s bathroom in Macon, GA.
For most artists, they just want their work to be seen and enjoyed. A lot of people go to Wendy's, therefore a lot of people are going to see that art. As an artist myself, I'd be over the moon if I had my work displayed in a major chain restaurant.


An actor wants you to see their film on the big screen, not in a degraded mp4 on a flip phone.
Ed Norton recently said that cinema is dead and Netflix is the way forward.
Scorsese just released his latest film on Netflix.
Go figure.


is Trent some kind of pretentious asshole for caring about the medium that his work is presented on?
Yes, absolutely. He has the right to present it how he likes, sure. Limiting that to one format and telling everyone else that they're wrong for consuming media in a way that differs from his personal preference is, however, quite distasteful.


Gripe and moan or let yourself be challenged and taken on a journey.
Hard to be taken on that journey when you have to get up to manually flip the record every 20 minutes. The medium doesn't translate well to the nature of the art, which in Trent's case, is often journey/narrative-based.


Don’t like the medium? Accept it. Find another artist to love if this isn’t your thing.
Why are you in this thread, exactly?

BRoswell
12-02-2019, 11:06 AM
It's like what Trent said about The Downward Spiral before it was released. Some will come along for the ride and some won't. I understand some of the frustration around the vinyl releases, but this is the way Trent & Atticus have decided to proceed. They're at the point in their careers where they have the freedom to do things or not do things, no matter the whims and desires of fans and critics. Nobody HAS to like it, but they also don't have to do what we tell them to.

cdm
12-02-2019, 11:06 AM
For most artists, they just want their work to be seen and enjoyed.

Valid point...as compact disc shelf space shrinks and shrinks at retail stores, if not disappears altogether.

buckaroo
12-02-2019, 11:53 AM
I don't understand why there is such a negative view of digital only releases. In 2019 I think the definitive version of any release should be digital and if an artist or label wants to cater to a niche market they can create whatever outdated obsolete media they want. Look, I buy all of these expensive vinyl releases because I can and want to, but I would prefer that the effort went towards the digital experience. I feel like physical media is just a way to justify a sale. Why the hell can't I buy a digital copy of something with the same level of detail put into the artwork and liner notes, etc. It just seems like any physical media is sort of a huge waste of resources for something that will get damaged and lost. I would rather have access the the same art and information on my array of devices that I use for listening to music and I would be happy to pay the same price for this.

The point of my post is not to complain about vinyl only. If that is what they want I am happy to pay. My issue is more general in how there doesn't seem to be a push to make the digital experience better by anyone. Rather, the focus is on creating these lavish physical items which is a step backwards in my opinion.

ryanmcfly
12-02-2019, 12:23 PM
In 2019 I think the definitive version of any release should be digital and if an artist or label wants to cater to a niche market they can create whatever outdated obsolete media they want. .

I think it's up to the artist to decide what's the definitive version tbh.