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GulDukat
09-28-2019, 12:07 AM
There's a lot of talk about this movie in the DC thread, but this deserves it's own thread.

Interesting article about the film's controversy:
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/joker-criticism-fallout-891081/

SM Rollinger
09-28-2019, 12:09 AM
Yes! Hyped for this film!

october_midnight
09-28-2019, 10:52 AM
Please remove 'The' from the thread title. It'll bug me, lol.

Space Suicide
09-28-2019, 11:23 AM
I'm excited and will see this ASAP. I have a strong feeling it'll really deliver a great story and Joker portrayal. Phoenix is a great actor.

I hate the negative press, media warnings and "protestors" who are boycotting this movie from existing because "it shows violence, promotes bullying," etc. Insipid morons. Basic case of "wah, I don't like it and don't want it to exist and if you like it and want to see it too bad. I want to block you from it by banning it." Don't like or want to watch it, fucking don't go.

https://images.fatherly.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/joker-new-movie.jpg?q=65&enable=upscale&w=600

Jinsai
09-28-2019, 01:45 PM
"promotes bullying?" I thought it was the opposite; that it was intended to side with the bullied as an anti-hero... Just remember, it's all the fault of the Hollywood elite media... It's everyone's fault but the guns.

richardp
09-28-2019, 02:42 PM
People who are complaining about the backlash to this movie are entirely missing the point I think. This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now. It's completely reasonable for a major chunk of the American population to feel uneasy about this movie coming out. It's not about whether people don't like it and just want it taken away for some political agenda. It's that this movie feels IRRESPONSIBLE and potentially DANGEROUS at this current moment in time. Coupled with the fact that there has ALREADY been a mass shooter who pretended to be the Joker and shoot up a movie screening of TDKR.

You can be annoyed all you want, but to ignore the fact that a large chunk of American society is uneasy about a movie coming out that chooses to side with the type of people carrying out these attacks, is a bit naive. And when the film's director and star go on TV lashing out at those critics, rather than trying to ENGAGE in conversation about the topic, it's all quite telling behavior.

I am personally going to see it, and am expecting a pretty good movie. But I'm not going to sit and act like those who are uneasy about this film aren't valid.

cahernandez
09-28-2019, 03:13 PM
This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now.

Have you seen it? If you haven't, then come back with a statement like this after seeing it. Does it feel irresponsible to release a movie like this at the current time? Maybe in the US, but not elsewhere in the world. I will be going to see this movie in Mexico and will not be afraid at all at the theater. Also, if you are in the US the chances of something like this happening to you at a theater are slim. Yes, you Americans have a mass-shooting problem (the only place in the world with such an issue), but statistically speaking, the odds of you being at the wrong place at the wrong time are really really low.

I feel like this movie will address the issue of mental health in an interesting way. Glad to see a blockbuster film talking about something like this.

neorev
09-28-2019, 03:18 PM
People who are complaining about the backlash to this movie are entirely missing the point I think. This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now. It's completely reasonable for a major chunk of the American population to feel uneasy about this movie coming out. It's not about whether people don't like it and just want it taken away for some political agenda. It's that this movie feels IRRESPONSIBLE and potentially DANGEROUS at this current moment in time. Coupled with the fact that there has ALREADY been a mass shooter who pretended to be the Joker and shoot up a movie screening of TDKR.

You can be annoyed all you want, but to ignore the fact that a large chunk of American society is uneasy about a movie coming out that chooses to side with the type of people carrying out these attacks, is a bit naive. And when the film's director and star go on TV lashing out at those critics, rather than trying to ENGAGE in conversation about the topic, it's all quite telling behavior.

I am personally going to see it, and am expecting a pretty good movie. But I'm not going to sit and act like those who are uneasy about this film aren't valid.

The problem is not the movie. The problem is this country has become unhinged and deranged. The rest of the world will enjoy this movie like normal human beings. America has a problem and it has nothing to with movies, but no one wants to face it.

richardp
09-28-2019, 03:45 PM
The problem is not the movie. The problem is this country has become unhinged and deranged. The rest of the world will enjoy this movie like normal human beings. America has a problem and it has nothing to with movies, but no one wants to face it.

I mean yeah pretty much.

The only backlash for this film is in America, where shit like this is happening daily. No one is talking about canceling the movie for the entire world? The rest of the world gets to enjoy the movie as such because the rest of the world has sensible gun laws and isn't living in a fantasy world about domestic violent attacks.

So again it absolutely makes sense that this movie is making American audiences uncomfortable. Again to just tell a nation dealing with constant PTSD over this to "just deal with it and don't see the movie" is naive and missing the point.

GulDukat
09-28-2019, 04:55 PM
People should actually see the movie first before deciding what it does or does not promote.

theimage13
09-28-2019, 07:58 PM
First off: not a superhero fan at all. Couldn't care less about Marvel / DC / whatever. But Phoenix is an actor who impresses the shit out of me, and Batman was part of my early career path, so I'm mildly interested in seeing this.

Now, that said: after watching the trailer, it feels like they're portraying him in a very sympathetic role. It's like they want people to feel for him, understand why he goes batshit insane, and be okay with it. It really feels like they're trying to normalize, if not promote, the idea of "it's okay to become a murderous villain if people treated you like shit your whole life". Maybe a year from now when I grab this from the library and see the whole thing, I'll get a different impression.

Almost anywhere else in the world, this would be fine. Because people seem healthy and rational and capable of realizing that this is just a work of fiction. But I honestly believe that here, as I said, it helps to normalize the notion that revenge is good. And in this country, at this point in our timeline, where someone literally shot up a movie theater while pretending to be this character and our real life president incites violence against anyone who you mistakenly think is your enemy, it just feels kind of tone deaf to be promoting this kind of content. Like...read the room. I enjoy dark humor, but I'm not going to crack a bunch of jokes about death at my grandma's funeral, you know?

That's my two cents, anyway.

Space Suicide
09-28-2019, 08:25 PM
To me it just feels like a light re-telling of The Killing Joke graphic novel with a bit more an anti-hero role involved. Anyone with a sensible brain knows this is a fictional movie and that portrayals of villainous people is not glorification. Banning or not watching something due to the content doesn't mean that stuff like this doesn't exist in the world. So banning it to stop people from seeing stuff like this won't stop evil in the world. If anything, major network news is more violent and damaging than a 2.5 hr movie about a fictional clown villain that's existed for nearly 80 years. Also, is there a female fascination portion of the film I don't know about? How does this glorify or dedicate sympathies to incel "culture" exactly?

As for the talk of revenge role this film portrays, to me it shows the dangers of society as a whole and how it can turn a person upside down. For a deep philosophical meaning (LOL) this movie studies a normal schlub who is a victim to society and it damages him to the point of being deranged and he lashes out. Not every Joker portrayal has been this way so this makes it fresh to me. As I've seen other places online for Joker portrayals:

Jack Nicholson - Mobster created by classic chemical vat origin story
Heath Ledger - A disheveled man obsessed with anarchy and showcasing humanity and soceity's faults
Jared Leto - Uhhhhhhhhh
Joaquin Phoenix - A victim of society who loses his way

Jinsai
09-28-2019, 08:34 PM
People who are complaining about the backlash to this movie are entirely missing the point I think. This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now.

Who knows... I'm guessing it veers closer to the tragic victim turned anti-hero -> villain trope... like Carrie. Or if they go darker, I dunno, Taxi Driver. Those are some of my favorite movies.

I haven't seen it yet though, so I don't know. Maybe it'll just suck.

GulDukat
09-28-2019, 09:12 PM
Yeah, a lot of deconstruction over a trailer and some reviews.

thelastdisciple
09-28-2019, 11:26 PM
I think the movie looks great but I'm also by no means removed from thinking that It looks like porn for nihilists.

eskimo
09-28-2019, 11:28 PM
My teenage self would kill me for saying this, but I can understand the concerns and the calls to censor/restrict it.

I'm very interested in seeing it. I'm not going to go and kill someone.

But there are a lot of things that can provide encouragement to someone who might. And this might seem like implicit support.

We need to be careful with things that can seem like implicit suport. There's a reason Trump shouldn't be allowed on television, he incites violence. A movie could have that impact.

It's not out yet, so obviously I can't pass judgement on whether or not it actually seems like implicit support for violence, and I grew up playing doom and loving violent video games and movies. Maybe I'm getting old, but I'm starting to see how these things could potentially send a message of support to someone who's on the edge of committing some kind of atrocity.

They most certianly won't cause violence on their own, but if someone is close to making that call, it's possible a violent movie or violent video game could give the wrong message and push them over the edge.

I'm going to go see it at some point anyways, because I think it's going to tell a very interesting story, but I can also understand the calls to stop.

BRoswell
09-29-2019, 01:20 AM
There are tons of violent films that are released each year without incident, so the idea that one of them is going to spur mass violence is absurd to me, no matter what the subject matter is. If it wasn't for the theater shooting in 2012 and the current political climate, nobody would be talking about this.

And art shouldn't be censored. Period. End of story.

Ruined
09-29-2019, 01:34 AM
Ban movies that "might icite violence" today, ban music that "might incite violence" tomorrow, due to their violent content. You know, like Nine Inch Nails...

Frozen Beach
09-29-2019, 01:44 AM
People need to stop acting like the people who commit these crimes are rational people. Clearly they aren't. Sure they could be influenced by a film to do something bad. But they could also be influenced by the bible or even something as juvenile as bad customer service.

BRoswell
09-29-2019, 02:03 AM
The people that commit these crimes are mentally ill, and art only serves to act as a scapegoat so people can avoid talking about the real issues. Where are these people who are trying to stir up controversy with this film when those issues need to be discussed? They've got their heads in the sand and their asses pointing at the sky.

neorev
09-29-2019, 03:31 AM
Yes, a safe and sanitized world where we make sure nothing out there triggers absolutely no one no matter what. We will all be safe and sound with nothing to challenge us or make us think or make us feel because God forbid we do.

FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

This kind of bullshit will only lead to the deepening of this country's mental derangement because no one can actually face up to anything that challenges them whatsoever.

katara
09-29-2019, 04:44 AM
People need to stop acting like the people who commit these crimes are rational people. Clearly they aren't.
This, exactly.

I'm going to add my comment from the DC thread, which is better suited for this one:


Forbes has an interesting article about the panic surround this movie. It compares what is happening now to how D&D was demonized in the 80s and how "goth" culture was looked at in the wake of Columbine.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2019/09/26/the-pointless-pre-panic-surrounding-joker/#6fc0e353b564
It's a bit different. D&D players and goths are harmless geeks for the most part, with Satanic and/or violent aspects being projected onto them by Christian fundamentalists. Just because one member of a subculture decides to commit a crime doesn't mean that everyone who dresses like them should be demonised. The important thing to note here is that D&D/goth is not a world view or a sociopolitical standpoint.

For Joker, it's the opposite. Incels are already known to have maligned and potentially dangerous points of view. They're not playing some game or listening to a specific genre of music, their entire raison d'etre is to be misogynistic hatelords who blame everyone else for their own failings (especially women, who they see as sub-human). They view instigators of mass shootings as saints (https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/04/24/i-laugh-death-normies-how-incels-are-celebrating-toronto-mass-killing). To associate themselves with such an utterly evil, twisted character as the Joker says it all, really. People have been gunned down in cinemas over less. There is a real threat here of actually dying, and people are understandably scared.

elevenism
09-29-2019, 06:30 AM
I'm in the "it's just a movie" and "art shouldn't be censored" camp.

Crimes have been "inspired" by Natural Born Killers, Fight Club, The Town, taxi Driver, The Deer Hunter, The Matrix- hell, A Clockwork Orange inspired so much that Kubrick himself had it pulled from theaters. And the list goes on and on.
But, I love all those movies.

I like what @neorev (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=584) said. I don't want an utterly sanitized world where everything has to be totally "safe."

We're all here because of a particularly transgressive band. I think it's a goddamned miracle that TDS hasn't been blamed for suicides.

It's just a movie. The movie looks particularly badass to me.

And I don't want to live in a world where I can't see such a movie because everything has to be totally "safe." The world isn't safe.

And people who commit crimes "inspired by movies" were probably lunatics to begin with.

It's a VERY slippery slope, if we start censoring art.

GulDukat
09-29-2019, 08:15 AM
Glad to see Sinatra's "Send in the Clowns" being used in the movie. Great song.

Kodiak33
09-29-2019, 09:24 AM
Yes, a safe and sanitized world where we make sure nothing out there triggers absolutely no one no matter what. We will all be safe and sound with nothing to challenge us or make us think or make us feel because God forbid we do.

FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

This kind of bullshit will only lead to the deepening of this country's mental derangement because no one can actually face up to anything that challenges them whatsoever.

It's almost like we're not living in America anymore...really getting ridiculous.

Jinsai
09-29-2019, 10:38 AM
Censorship sucks. Next thing you know they’ll wanna ban The Downward Spiral because it “encourages self harm”

The only people who should have a say in censoring something should be the creators

botley
09-29-2019, 10:39 AM
Does it feel irresponsible to release a movie like this at the current time? Maybe in the US, but not elsewhere in the world.
I was born and live in Toronto, which is not the USA. An avowed incel murdered ten people on a busy street a few kilometers North of where I live outside the headquarters of the Toronto District School Board. He ran over them, and dozens more innocent people, on a so-called "mission" to assassinate and terrorize "Normies" (https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/09/27/van-attack-drivers-disturbing-police-interview-i-feel-like-i-accomplished-my-mission.html) with a rented van, and the entire city has been on tenterhooks ever since while we wait for a copycat to take up his challenge of an "incel uprising".

Please, everyone, stop insinuating that this is a US-only problem, or that a piece of cinema specifically targeted by an enormous corporation with millions of dollars in its marketing budget to an online fan base adjacent to radical cells of terrorist scumbags is CENSORED — it should be interrogated for whether it handles the issue responsibly. That's all.


People need to stop acting like the people who commit these crimes are rational people. Clearly they aren't. Sure they could be influenced by a film to do something bad. But they could also be influenced by the bible or even something as juvenile as bad customer service.
Watch the interview I just linked. The murderer explains in emotionally detached but quite logical terms how he became "radicalized" (his own word) by copying the actions of people whose twisted ideologies he felt reflected his own experience.

BRoswell
09-29-2019, 11:12 AM
Watch the interview I just linked. The murderer explains in emotionally detached but quite logical terms how he became "radicalized" (his own word) by copying the actions of people whose twisted ideologies he felt reflected his own experience.

Key words being "emotionally detached". You're essentially putting the cart before the horse. People don't commit crimes because of movies/TV shows/songs/etc. It doesn't "activate" a person with good mental health to do something wrong, which is what a lot of people would like to believe is the case. These people already have issues, and chances are they were going to act on their murderous impulses with or without seeing/hearing a particular piece of art. Again, the idea that we should hold art up as being in any way responsible for what these people do is absurd.

Something else: did anyone think, before hyping this film up as being possible inspiration for these incel fucks, that doing so might actually inspire someone to do something stupid? Putting that kind of discussion out there is more dangerous than the film if you ask me. These fuckers want people to remember them when they commit their acts, and round the clock discussion about such things is one way to make sure people never forget what they do.

mfte
09-29-2019, 01:40 PM
Something else: did anyone think, before hyping this film up as being possible inspiration for these incel fucks, that doing so might actually inspire someone to do something stupid? Putting that kind of discussion out there is more dangerous than the film if you ask me. These fuckers want people to remember them when they commit their acts, and round the clock discussion about such things is one way to make sure people never forget what they do.

I was thinking something similar. In a way it is like the argument Dr Wolper makes in the Dark Knight Returns claiming that Batman actually creates the very villains he is trying to stop.

neorev
09-29-2019, 02:36 PM
Something else: did anyone think, before hyping this film up as being possible inspiration for these incel fucks, that doing so might actually inspire someone to do something stupid? Putting that kind of discussion out there is more dangerous than the film if you ask me. These fuckers want people to remember them when they commit their acts, and round the clock discussion about such things is one way to make sure people never forget what they do.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-22-2018/HGTVBx.gif

We blame a movie yet it's the news hype machine that is doing all the work and damage. You legitimize and give weight to these lowlifes and their deranged beliefs thus giving them exactly what they want... attention and promotion.

onthewall2983
09-29-2019, 02:44 PM
The more harrumph-ing I see from over-sensitive white people (of which I can be sometimes) about this, the more I want to see it. It is just a movie, and there are way bigger fish to fry in the world honestly.


We're all here because of a particularly transgressive band. I think it's a goddamned miracle that TDS hasn't been blamed for suicides.

Didn't a congresswoman call NIN basically a rap group citing the lyrics of "Big Man With a Gun"? He has sold a lot of records and concert tickets, but it is kind of remarkable how Trent avoided some of the more stickier controversies people like Marilyn Manson and a few other groups did in the 90's. He put out such a transgressive image and sound, but wasn't as roundly reviled by the moral majority morons and the religious right.

neorev
09-29-2019, 02:50 PM
Didn't a congresswoman call NIN basically a rap group citing the lyrics of "Big Man With a Gun"? He has sold a lot of records and concert tickets, but it is kind of remarkable how Trent avoided some of the more stickier controversies people like Marilyn Manson and a few other groups did in the 90's. He put out such a transgressive image and sound, but wasn't as roundly reviled by the moral majority morons and the religious right.

Manson was a much easier target to go after with his music videos and imagery. As known as NIN was, Manson's image was way bigger and more in your face. NIN didn't constantly shove it in your face like Manson did. It was easier for the news to take a pic of Manson or some video clip and make him out to be a monster promoting the world to murder. The news loves this shit. They eat it up. They'd rather put us all in danger just so they can get a "scoop" that'll attract viewers.

cahernandez
09-29-2019, 03:00 PM
Something else: did anyone think, before hyping this film up as being possible inspiration for these incel fucks, that doing so might actually inspire someone to do something stupid? Putting that kind of discussion out there is more dangerous than the film if you ask me.

AMEN brother!

Mantra
09-29-2019, 07:02 PM
I could care less about the "controversy," but...

I gotta say, I'm not sure I really needed a Joker origin story in my life. There's something about whole idea of giving him this lame backstory that sort of deflates the character for me. It's like how Darth Vader used to be menacing and intimidating, and then we all saw the prequels and found out that he's actually just this annoying little idiot underneath that suit.

As it is, Joker's campiness makes him a challenging character to depict in a cool way. The Ledger/Nolan approach is probably the best way to handle it, just making him an enigma of wild chaos with no logical origin story whatsoever. This emo "humanized" victimy sob story just seems kinda dumb and misguided. To me, this kind of backstory horseshit has a way of making characters LESS interesting and less iconic.

MrLobster
09-29-2019, 08:33 PM
annoying little idiot underneath that suit.

NooooOOOOooOOoOOOoOooOoooOOooooOOOOooOoooooo! *takes a bow*

elevenism
09-29-2019, 09:44 PM
I could care less about the "controversy," but...

I gotta say, I'm not sure I really needed a Joker origin story in my life. There's something about whole idea of giving him this lame backstory that sort of deflates the character for me. It's like how Darth Vader used to be menacing and intimidating, and then we all saw the prequels and found out that he's actually just this annoying little idiot underneath that suit.

As it is, Joker's campiness makes him a challenging character to depict in a cool way. The Ledger/Nolan approach is probably the best way to handle it, just making him an enigma of wild chaos with no logical origin story whatsoever. This emo "humanized" victimy sob story just seems kinda dumb and misguided. To me, this kind of backstory horseshit has a way of making characters LESS interesting and less iconic.to me, the Joker has become something akin to, idk, a tarot card. He's like a new archetype.

Therefore, there can be endless iterations and interpretations.

Jinsai
09-29-2019, 10:02 PM
I guess it all comes in to where you appreciate the character from. I can totally understand people who like him mysterious. That's something I loved about The Dark Knight; his background changed. Like a joke.

I think this is taking a tragic angle to the character, similar to the Killing Joke, and I think it's worth an exploration. We'll see how good or bad it is. It's got some weight in its hands though. If it drops this ball....

BUT... I hope it's dark as hell, intense, and I hope it pisses off everyone who's clutching their pearls.

neorev
09-29-2019, 10:58 PM
I could care less about the "controversy," but...

I gotta say, I'm not sure I really needed a Joker origin story in my life. There's something about whole idea of giving him this lame backstory that sort of deflates the character for me. It's like how Darth Vader used to be menacing and intimidating, and then we all saw the prequels and found out that he's actually just this annoying little idiot underneath that suit.

As it is, Joker's campiness makes him a challenging character to depict in a cool way. The Ledger/Nolan approach is probably the best way to handle it, just making him an enigma of wild chaos with no logical origin story whatsoever. This emo "humanized" victimy sob story just seems kinda dumb and misguided. To me, this kind of backstory horseshit has a way of making characters LESS interesting and less iconic.

I'm with you on this one.

Haysey
09-30-2019, 07:47 AM
I have my ticket for Sat. Regardless of how it's being received (and hopefully nobody is inspired to actually do anything stupid at screenings) i'll give it a fair shake, i like the character, but only as foil for Batman. Anything (so far) with him not fucking with the Bat just hasn't done it for me.

october_midnight
09-30-2019, 10:26 AM
Got our IMAX tickets for Sat. afternoon. Can't wait!

dlb
09-30-2019, 10:42 AM
You guys are lucky! This isn't the case often but this time you earlier than Europe. Will have to wait until October 8th to see it, but I'm really psyched.

Pillfred
09-30-2019, 01:47 PM
I can't believe that anyone is suggesting this movie will make crazies do crazy shit. Like at all. Even more so that it's apparently a real thing. Haven't checked outside of the comments I've read here. This sort of thing is how we let the terrorists win. We all gonna act like we've forgotten about Natural Born Killers? Come on now.

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk

thelastdisciple
09-30-2019, 02:33 PM
I think some folks are just merely making an observation for the potential that this movie would be an understandable rallying point for 4channeers and alt-right kekimanian douchebags, it's something they can see themselves in and find an excuse or justification for their shitty behaviour. This doesn't have to mean the movie must be scrubbed from existence, I just won't be surprised if the sewage of humanity makes a symbol out of this is all.. kinda like how ammosexuals and ooo-rah America like The Punisher so much.

elevenism
09-30-2019, 03:06 PM
I think some folks are just merely making an observation for the potential that this movie would be an understandable rallying point for 4channeers and alt-right kekimanian douchebags, it's something they can see themselves in and find an excuse or justification for their shitty behaviour. This doesn't have to mean the movie must be scrubbed from existence, I just won't be surprised if the sewage of humanity makes a symbol out of this is all.. kinda like how ammosexuals and ooo-rah America like The Punisher so much.dude, I hope not. I hope the alt right doesn't commandeer the joker. Fuck. But you certainly might be right. These are strange, nasty times.

Aside from that, what ALSO wouldn't surprise me is a copycat Dark Knight shooting. My brother and them lived close to that theater for awhile, and just seeing it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

I won't be catching this shit in theaters, that's for damn sure. :/

Leviathant
09-30-2019, 03:11 PM
dude, I hope not. I hope the alt right doesn't commandeer the joker.

Hate to break it to you dude, but we're not putting that genie back in the bottle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%22Joker%22_poster). I still see that image crop up now and then.

Alt angle from the same period. (https://www.google.com/search?q=alex+jones+joker)

elevenism
09-30-2019, 03:39 PM
Hate to break it to you dude, but we're not putting that genie back in the bottle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_%22Joker%22_poster). I still see that image crop up now and then.

Alt angle from the same period. (https://www.google.com/search?q=alex+jones+joker)oh, fuck me. I forgot about the Obama thing.

What I'M afraid of, though, is the joker becoming some sort of right wing mascot.

The whole vibe, to ME, though, seems to be more nihilistic than political. We'll see.

SM Rollinger
09-30-2019, 06:49 PM
This whole conversation is just so weird to me, ive always been left leaning and I grew up in a time where the left was the champions of free though and speech. If a film like this came out in the 90s, it would be the right that would outraged at it.

I think a good majority of the so called alt-right are centeraliats that have been pushed away by some of the extream views the lefties have adopted (ie censorship) and feel like they have nowhere else to go.

I usually dont wade into theses conversation, but this thread has gotten me thinking.

theimage13
10-01-2019, 09:47 AM
This whole conversation is just so weird to me, ive always been left leaning and I grew up in a time where the left was the champions of free though and speech. If a film like this came out in the 90s, it would be the right that would outraged at it.

I think a good majority of the so called alt-right are centeraliats that have been pushed away by some of the extream views the lefties have adopted (ie censorship) and feel like they have nowhere else to go.

I usually dont wade into theses conversation, but this thread has gotten me thinking.

I think it's worth noting that calls for outright censorship are from an extremist portion of far-left people. For example, I'm as liberal as they come and I don't think the government should be stepping in to shut this down or anything like that. I do, however, think that studios have a moral obligation to compare their content to the current climate and ask themselves if it's really such a great idea to release something at a specific time. For example: a few years ago, a crazy old asshole killed his mother, dumped her body in the basement, set the house on fire, then started murdering the first responders.

The same week or month, some cop-drama show was supposed to have a huge episode that was all about...well, basically the same thing. The network or production company or someone decided - without even being asked - to pull that episode, because they realized it wasn't a good look. They realized there were obvious parallels between that and a real tragedy, and they decided that the very real grief that would be caused by essentially glorifying that behavior was not worth the profits, so they just ran a rerun that night. Movie studios could do the same thing. I mean, how many fucking superhero movies are there already anyway? Have an original idea for a change. Maybe one that has a remotely positive message.

*shrugs*

(edit: after re-reading, I realized that an extra "h" turned "worth noting" into "worth nothing", which greatly changed my point.)

Haysey
10-01-2019, 10:10 AM
Thing that scares me is that if this film had come out 6-7 years ago there wouldn't have been much of anything to get worried about, it's that in the last few years the absolute WORST people have found their collective voice, through various chan forums and the darker reaches of the internet and even some more mainstream outlets, and will actively use this kind of film as inspiration to do fucking unthinkable shit. When Natural Born Killers came out anyone that looked to the film for inspiration were looked at as isolated nut jobs, now they have their own fucking set of followers online...that fucking scares me!

I don't want films like this to not be made, but we also have to take a wider look at what's happening in the world when we make them.

theimage13
10-01-2019, 04:04 PM
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/todd-phillips-joker-woke-culture-comedy?origin=web-hf

The director literally just admitted that the problem at hand is real, and that he's guilty of it. His actual reason for making Joker: it was too hard to make a comedy because people are realizing that the really offensive shit people used to rely on isn't actually funny, so instead he made a movie about a guy feeling sorry for himself (i.e. someone in his position) going out and becoming a psychotic murderer because he couldn't get what he wanted.

How do you not see why people are a little concerned about the tone of this?

Balthier
10-01-2019, 04:39 PM
I hope this movie won't inspire men into becoming murderers same way I don't want Captain Marvel to influence women on becoming moronic humorless men-haters.

katara
10-01-2019, 05:48 PM
I hope this movie won't inspire men into becoming murderers same way I don't want Captain Marvel to influence women on becoming moronic humorless men-haters.
While I haven't yet seen Captain Marvel, movies with female leads are not automatically misandric.

theimage13
10-01-2019, 10:34 PM
I hope this movie won't inspire men into becoming murderers same way I don't want Captain Marvel to influence women on becoming moronic humorless men-haters.


Found the future Joker.

Pillfred
10-02-2019, 12:34 AM
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/todd-phillips-joker-woke-culture-comedy?origin=web-hf

The director literally just admitted that the problem at hand is real, and that he's guilty of it. His actual reason for making Joker: it was too hard to make a comedy because people are realizing that the really offensive shit people used to rely on isn't actually funny, so instead he made a movie about a guy feeling sorry for himself (i.e. someone in his position) going out and becoming a psychotic murderer because he couldn't get what he wanted.

How do you not see why people are a little concerned about the tone of this?ďI think itís because outrage is a commodity. I think itís something that has been a commodity for a while,Ē he told the Wrap. ďWhatís outstanding to me in this discourse in this movie is how easily the far left can sound like the far right when it suits their agenda. Itís really been eye-opening for me."

BRoswell
10-02-2019, 01:40 AM
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/todd-phillips-joker-woke-culture-comedy?origin=web-hf

The director literally just admitted that the problem at hand is real, and that he's guilty of it. His actual reason for making Joker: it was too hard to make a comedy because people are realizing that the really offensive shit people used to rely on isn't actually funny, so instead he made a movie about a guy feeling sorry for himself (i.e. someone in his position) going out and becoming a psychotic murderer because he couldn't get what he wanted.

How do you not see why people are a little concerned about the tone of this?

I'm much more concerned about his "woke culture" comment to be honest. Dude sounds like yet another out of touch older gentlemen who's pissed because nobody's interested in films featuring jokes that come at the expense of minorities. Fuck off with that noise. God knows what kind of morons he's activated with those comments.

At this point, with all this controversy, I've lost most of my interest in seeing the film right away. I'll just play it safe and watch it when it comes out on Blu-ray.

theimage13
10-02-2019, 07:27 AM
“I think it’s because outrage is a commodity. I think it’s something that has been a commodity for a while,” he told the Wrap. “What’s outstanding to me in this discourse in this movie is how easily the far left can sound like the far right when it suits their agenda. It’s really been eye-opening for me."

...the fact that extremists can sound crazy no matter what they're pushing for was eye-opening? Sounds like a bright fella.

(To be clear, there are radical left ideas that I hate just as much as radical right. Just saying...how is that breaking news to anyone?)

Jon
10-02-2019, 10:53 AM
Marcus Theatres in Bloomington went ahead and changed their bag policy because of this movie (https://www.centralillinoisproud.com/news/local-news/local-theater-says-no-need-to-worry-about-seeing-joker-movie/). The article, however, is not very comforting. The first place they talk to, Landmark Cinemas, is a hotbed for high school fist fights. That's not exactly the place I want telling me everything is going to be okay. I've witnessed fights where the security was outnumbered, and they hung back waiting for police backup.

october_midnight
10-02-2019, 10:54 AM
Go to about 8:00 if you wanna feel the most awkward you've felt in a few days...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZNBy-BdM2A

Kodiak33
10-02-2019, 10:57 AM
This is all absolutely ridiculous.

mfte
10-02-2019, 11:09 AM
It's odd that he would agree to have that footage played and then act all weird about it. I am assuming that he agreed to it.

Frozen Beach
10-02-2019, 11:14 AM
Go to about 8:00 if you wanna feel the most awkward you've felt in a few days...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZNBy-BdM2A
That interview could have easily been staged. Don't forget, this is the guy who did I'm Still Here.

october_midnight
10-02-2019, 11:54 AM
Perhaps, though a lot of times shows/hosts will reach out to others to get something when a guest is on...i.e. Kimmel's show could've easily reached out to Todd Phillips' people to get that clip without Joaquin knowing. It happens all the time on talk shows.

Magnetic
10-02-2019, 12:11 PM
It changes the narrative - they're not talking about the Incel stuff which Joaquin obviously doesn't want to discuss and makes for an amusing interview.

marodi
10-02-2019, 12:37 PM
There's a bit of of an echo of Christian Bale in Terminator Salvation in that clip. Joaquin Phoenix can be intense and unpredictable during filming. He is somewhat Method in his approach to a character.

He spoke at the Toronto international film festival and he thanked his brother River, saying that it was him who pushed him to go back into acting. He said he feels he owes his career to River. I would be very upset if all the bullshit surrounding Joker were to distract viewers from Joaquin's performance, especially if it is as amazing as word says it is. It took a long time for him to go from being River's brother, that poor kid who made the heartbreaking 911 call while watching him die on a nightclub's sidewalk, to finally being an acclaimed actor in his own right.

eskimo
10-02-2019, 01:26 PM
I'm still feeling torn here....

I get it. I don't like censorship. I want to see this.

I don't want to give incel's something to make them feel justified in becoming violent.

If an incel is looking for understanding, they might see themselves in the movie and feel more accepted. Acceptance is probably the underlying need that's not being met that's leading them to joining the incel community.

But we've all felt rejected and mocked and beaten down at points in our lives. Joker is violent. Incel's have been violent.

There have been a lot of movies and tv shows about rejected and powerless individuals turning violent. How is this movie going to tell that story differently?

How is putting this movie out right now the responsible thing to do?

I don't know....I don't have answers, I just understand both sides of this argument.

october_midnight
10-02-2019, 01:41 PM
Probably because it's a movie and they wanted to release it.

Mr. Blaileen
10-02-2019, 03:41 PM
Not really concerned with any controversy or whatever. Got my center-middle IMAX tickets for Friday night. Pumped.

Jord
10-03-2019, 03:39 AM
The more shit I read about this film the more pumped I am to see it. Going to hit the cinema next Tuesday/Wednesday all being well.

hobochic
10-03-2019, 03:50 AM
I'm still feeling torn here....

I get it. I don't like censorship. I want to see this.

I don't want to give incel's something to make them feel justified in becoming violent.

If an incel is looking for understanding, they might see themselves in the movie and feel more accepted. Acceptance is probably the underlying need that's not being met that's leading them to joining the incel community.

But we've all felt rejected and mocked and beaten down at points in our lives. Joker is violent. Incel's have been violent.

There have been a lot of movies and tv shows about rejected and powerless individuals turning violent. How is this movie going to tell that story differently?

How is putting this movie out right now the responsible thing to do?

I don't know....I don't have answers, I just understand both sides of this argument.

Don't let yourself get affected by fearmongers. They've always blamed "dark" "violent" art to whatever happens in society. Sick people are sick and will have breadcrumbs leading to whatever, from The Beatles to Catcher in the Rye to Manson to GTA to whatever. Art and freedom to express it is never the cause for shit happening in society.

BRoswell
10-03-2019, 07:45 AM
There have been a lot of movies and tv shows about rejected and powerless individuals turning violent.

Yep, and how many people went apeshit after seeing those films and committed violent acts? Not too many. Stories like that are as old as storytelling. Why should this film in particular be held responsible?

I just want to point out that nobody was talking about any of this when the film was announced way back when. It's only in the past couple months that the media has latched on to the idea that this film is going to trigger violence and sold that idea as an inevitability. Like I said, if anyone decides to do something stupid, I'm going to blame them for pushing the idea, not the film itself. Of course, the media will take absolutely no responsibility for it if it does happen. They'll blame art...as always.

mfte
10-03-2019, 09:17 AM
This is pretty damn cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylt58b5g-ko

Jinsai
10-03-2019, 01:19 PM
Let’s just watch it, unafraid that some incel dick with body armor is going to storm the theater and murder you, and THEN have an opinion. I’m seeing it tonight

ickyvicky
10-03-2019, 03:10 PM
On the radio, they said more NYC cops will be out in uniform and plain-clothing to ensure everyone's safety.

bobbie solo
10-03-2019, 04:17 PM
Any excuse to fearmonger citizens with the insane police state we esp. have here in NYC! And of course put in more overtime!

telee.kom
10-04-2019, 02:22 AM
My favorite movie of the year, not a contest. Groundbreaking look on mental illness, not only fantastic comic book movie, but fantastic movie in general. I would hesitate to even call it comic book movie, because there is very little comic book stuff in it and I honestly wouldn't mind if it wasn't there at all. They could easily just call this movie Arthur and I would love it all the same. There's not as much violence as you might expect, but some scenes I almost forgot to breathe how tense it was. Don't remember the last time I felt so uneasy during a movie. Phoenix's performance is transformative, this is his movie, there's barely a scene without him and he deserves all the praise, all the noms and all the awards.

All the incel shit you reading about is ridiculous, don't trust movie reviewers with obvious agendas who gave this movie sub par ratings because it sends "the wrong message". This movie is a masterpiece and Phoenix's performance will be talked years later same as Ledger was.

Haysey
10-04-2019, 03:34 AM
I'm seeing it tomorrow and see for myself...much like everyone i guess (early screening so less chance of someone being a dick...i always manage to find one screening a month with one!). Saying that it's a busy month of films, lots for me to be seeing!

Mantra
10-04-2019, 04:10 PM
Part of me can't help wondering if the controversy around this movie was just some viral marketing shit from WB, just them trying to hype this movie up by making it look edgy and "dangerous."

october_midnight
10-04-2019, 04:38 PM
Doubtful. It's because we're currently in 2019 where literally everything will be hated on for literally any reason you can think of. Social media. Everyone has a voice now so you've got a billion people all screaming at the same time. Nothing new.

Space Suicide
10-04-2019, 07:40 PM
Release date is here and no gun violence has occurred. No bombs detonated. No fistfights either.

Gee, what a surprise.

Seeing it next weekend with the girl I've been seeing. cannot wait.

Wretchedest
10-05-2019, 02:13 AM
I'm sure the movie is fine but I 100% take issue that with the notion that it's a "groundbreaking look at mental Illness"

If anything putting that on the joker reinforces the worst notions and stereotypes of mental illness

telee.kom
10-05-2019, 04:00 AM
It's groundbreaking in a sense this isn't a topic discussed very often in blockbuster movies. Joker's mental illness is front and center of a story here. I think it's great how the movie criticized lack of help for these people, you could argue none of this would have happen if social services have been properly funded and Arthur got the help he needed. Bringing this issue to the mainstream audience is great. Not exactly sure what stereotypes should portrayal of Joker's illness reinforce in me.

Camille
10-05-2019, 07:46 PM
I went to see it and I thought it was remarkable. I look forward to seeing it again.

burninglard
10-05-2019, 07:54 PM
Just got done seeing the film. I did enjoy it, but I wouldn’t say it was my favorite film of the year. Just my 2 cents. I do think Phoenix deserves nominations for his portrayal though, he was fantastic. Overall I give a solid B+.

mfte
10-05-2019, 11:17 PM
It was a good movie. Nearly great. Although... too much dancing, not nearly enough prancing.

Mr. Blaileen
10-06-2019, 12:19 AM
Loved the movie. There’s a lot to take in and think about. I really enjoyed the score as well- whenever Arthur was dancing, it seemed as if the Joker persona was taking over. It was weird and crystallizing and eerie all at the same time. I like that the film constantly played with the audience’s heads to the point where by the end nobody is really sure of the extent of what did or didn’t happen.

Also loved that the violence incited by Arthur also led to the creation of his arch nemesis.

Jinsai
10-06-2019, 02:37 AM
I thought it was great, though it really shadowed Taxi Driver pretty hard and it might have dragged in some spots. I think the controversy is unfounded; this isn't a sympathetic character.

Deadpool
10-06-2019, 02:58 AM
The craft of this film is undeniable (and I have a bit of a time tough time saying that when the director is Todd Phillips). While technical and acting merits may be exceptional, I'm hoping I'm not the only one with this pet-peeve/criticism/nitpick: it's not nearly as funny as it should be.

Haysey
10-06-2019, 04:10 AM
I've done my mini review so i'll keep this short. It's a good film and Phoenix deserves all the praise for the roll, and i like how it's in many ways an origin film for how Gotham got to the state it was...but i really don't think this is a good version of the 'Joker' character. I'll keep it spoiler free but the more i thought about it the more i just can't see this version of Mr J given ANY version of Batman any trouble, or this version even caring about Bats in any meaningful way, and the film would have been better served if it just removed all references to the Waynes and Bruce (i didn't need to see the Waynes death AGAIN) the more they did it the more i kept being reminded of Batman...and it hurt the overall film for me! I did get a cool holographic poster though.

Good film, not nearly as good as the hype (not even my fav DC movie this year) and not my most liked version of the character...but worth seeing.

versusreality
10-06-2019, 04:28 PM
just came back from seeing it with my gf. thought it was...ok. the more we talked about it afterwards, the more I realized I wasn't crazy for it. preferred the first half over the second half.

Conan The Barbarian
10-06-2019, 04:43 PM
Believe the hype, This film was raw.

GulDukat
10-06-2019, 05:07 PM
Michael Moore calls Joker a "masterpiece." (https://www.indiewire.com/2019/10/joker-michael-moore-1202179054/)

cahernandez
10-06-2019, 11:18 PM
I've done my mini review so i'll keep this short. It's a good film and Phoenix deserves all the praise for the roll, and i like how it's in many ways an origin film for how Gotham got to the state it was...but i really don't think this is a good version of the 'Joker' character. I'll keep it spoiler free but the more i thought about it the more i just can't see this version of Mr J given ANY version of Batman any trouble, or this version even caring about Bats in any meaningful way

Well, I read this on the film's Wikipedia page: "Director Todd Phillips (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Phillips) said that he intentionally left it ambiguous as to whether Arthur becomes the actual Joker as seen in traditional Batman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman) stories or inspires a separate character"

GulDukat
10-06-2019, 11:26 PM
Saw it, great movie. The whole incel thing was much ado about nothing.

GulDukat
10-06-2019, 11:37 PM
Well, I read this on the film's Wikipedia page: "Director Todd Phillips (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Phillips) said that he intentionally left it ambiguous as to whether Arthur becomes the actual Joker as seen in traditional Batman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman) stories or inspires a separate character"Hate the idea of the latter being true.

Pillfred
10-07-2019, 12:05 AM
Was pretty good. I'd watch it again.

kleiner
10-07-2019, 12:05 AM
Everything I could want from one of these stand alone comic book movies is right here.

Borrows from and homages some of Scorseseís best offerings. Phoenix is always superb but this is a high point to end this decade on. How many actors get a decade with performances like Iím Still Here, The Master, Her, Inherent Vice, You Were Never Really Here and this? Heís one of the best weíve got and the whole supporting cast crushes it as well.

Gorgeously shot. I love how those wide angle establishing shots almost make Gotham look beautiful from afar but up close itís as dilapidated as the city in Seven. There are some images in this that stand out as the most memorable in a while.

The whole incel bullshit is just that, this is a movie about poverty and income inequality and a drastic lack of empathy and mental health services. Maybe some media outlets are sad they didnít get the powder keg they hoped for.

I think itís amazing that this year we got these wild turns from Hangover alumni with Mazin making Chernobyl and Phillips making this. I would have never guessed that franchise would lead to these amazing works. This isnít for everyone but this is the first comic-based movie in a while to remind me that they can be actually great movies divorced of franchises and they donít have to all feel like bloated action and humor heavy commercials for the next installment. Phoenix adds a sense of humanity that sells the whole thing and itís his film from beginning to end. Really hoping this leads to more of these daring and stand alone versions of well-known characters.

GulDukat
10-07-2019, 12:13 AM
I have no idea why incel was brought into the conversation. It's almost like people imaged this being another movie. Shame on reviewers who gave the impression that this movie was all about that.

Small complaint--I wish that the actual soundtrack with the songs used was available, not just the score. It was a really cool mix of stuff.

eversonpoe
10-07-2019, 01:35 AM
I have no idea why incel was brought into the conversation. It's almost like people imaged this being another movie. Shame on reviewers who gave the impression that this movie was all about that.

Small complaint--I wish that the actual soundtrack with the songs used was available, not just the score. It was a really cool mix of stuff.

i think it's because the joker became an icon for those types of dudes on places like 4chan, and people worried that making a gritty/realistic version of the joker in a movie where he incites violence would rile up those who already idolized the character. it's not that far fetched, especially given how little it takes to set off the people who tend commit mass violence (or even smaller acts of violence), but i think it's also a bullshit "let's blame the movies" stance.

that said, phillips' "you can't make comedy anymore because everyone gets offended so that's why i made a non-comedic movie" remark is bullshit. just write better comedy, dude.

Haysey
10-07-2019, 04:04 AM
Well, I read this on the film's Wikipedia page: "Director Todd Phillips (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Phillips) said that he intentionally left it ambiguous as to whether Arthur becomes the actual Joker as seen in traditional Batman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman) stories or inspires a separate character"

That would make SO much more sense to me, the film did feel it was less "THE" Joker and more "A" Joker. Like if the actual Joker came along and murdered Arthur and assumed all his followers and thus given himself a pretty good cover story to keep his background secret. I dunno if the film does enough to support this though, but it would make the film work a lot better for me.

As a side note if anyone wants this Joker poster DM me and i'll figure out a way to get it to you, i don't really want it and it would be a shame to just throw it away.

Haysey
10-07-2019, 04:07 AM
gs used was available, not just the score. It was a really cool mix of stuff.

Not sure that'll happen now, i didn't initially pick up on it but they most defiantly used a Gary Glitter song towards the end, and thats a BIG NO NO...at least here in the UK.

versusreality
10-07-2019, 05:28 AM
fun fact: I worked at the theater where a certain family is running out of towards the end of the movie. I live about 15 mins from many filming locations in this movie in Jersey City and Newark NJ. I saw them shoot some scenes.

Conan The Barbarian
10-07-2019, 07:16 AM
I have to say, three key elements to this magnificent film. Phillips, Phoenix, and the beautiful and talented Hildur Guūnadůttir.

Iím comparing her score to John Carpenters Halloween. I donít think the movie wouldnít have had the same impact if it wasnít for her score. That , matched with Phoenix performance was a match made in Arkham.

I canít wait to see this again.

This movie is going to look glorious on 4k. Shot on film, no cgi, wonderfully lit and shot. I canít wait.

Also, this movie comes back into my head and small details about why Arthur is the way he is creeps back into my head and gives me that feeling again. Best part is, you donít know if any of it was real.

mfte
10-07-2019, 09:44 AM
Did anyone else feel that the score was a little too loud at times?

imail724
10-07-2019, 10:10 AM
fun fact: I worked at the theater where a certain family is running out of towards the end of the movie. I live about 15 mins from many filming locations in this movie in Jersey City and Newark NJ. I saw them shoot some scenes.
Do you know if any of the film was shot in NY? The theater he goes into to meet Thomas Wayne looked EXACTLY like the King's Theatre in Brooklyn to me.

cahernandez
10-07-2019, 11:03 AM
Did anyone else feel that the score was a little too loud at times?

Yes it was loud but it didn't bother me. It added to the tension. One point in the movie where I stopped my suspension of disbelief is when Arthur is at the Murray's show and confesses to killing three people. If I was the producer of the show I would had stopped it right away, don't know why they kept on rolling the cameras. Or were the policemen that were chasing Arthur so badly beat up that they couldn't alert other policemen about this guy almost to be confirmed the killer of the three yuppies? (this is something I could actually believe, that the policemen were in a coma or something). How come Gary, the little person, did not alert the police right away, after witnessing that murder??? What I'm trying to say is that Arthur should have been stopped long before he shot Murray. All these things kinda took me out of the movie.

Rdm
10-07-2019, 03:10 PM
Really thought the movie was great. I did think certain parts were loud, of course on purpose, and one scene actually frightened me -when the gun went off in the subway, not saying there was a gun around me but it was just really intense. Also while dealing with depression in my life it made me feel even more depressed, so I guess that’s good....I enjoyed how they actually surrounded some of the atmosphere with the actual comic book Batman, you know cause the movie is called joker and the laugh was fantastic. I tried to imitate the laugh but failed miserably.

bobbie solo
10-07-2019, 10:38 PM
It was filmed in NYC too, not just Newark & JC.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGA82ajAdo

GulDukat
10-07-2019, 10:54 PM
It was filmed in NYC too, not just Newark & JC.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGA82ajAdoI can't take more than five seconds of those guys.

versusreality
10-08-2019, 05:23 AM
It was filmed in NYC too, not just Newark & JC.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGA82ajAdo
yes.
Newark Theater, and Lowe's Classic Theater (the one I used to work at) used. some areas of Journal Square (in jersey city) and Dowtown (JC) were used. lot of exteriors of Newark street shots, mixed with NYC.

imail724
10-08-2019, 07:52 AM
It was filmed in NYC too, not just Newark & JC.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGA82ajAdoI love when Mike and jay disagree this much; makes for a better episode. There were like 2 or 3 times where Mike was just like "nope. You are wrong", and I have to agree. Seemed like Jay had a bone to pick with the film, and Philips in particular, which made it impossible for him to enjoy it. I feel like I usually agree with Jay more, but I'm 100% with Mike on this one.

Balthier
10-08-2019, 10:09 AM
This movie is amazing. I felt really bad for Arthur and despised him as soon as he became the violent, psychotic Joker. Joaquin Phoenix, what can I say? Probably my favorite actor ever.

Clickbait media completely exaggerated in the violence thing. Deadpool, for example, was much more violent. But well, Marvel and Disney are simply shielded from any criticism or controversy anyway. ALWAYS playing itself helps a lot in that regard obvisouly.

I love that this movie exists. I love this movie was made in this era of over-senstiveness. I love how the media was desperately wanting mass shootings to happen during Joker sessions but nothing so far.

Jord
10-09-2019, 03:29 AM
What a fantastic, gripping film. I felt uncomfortable during some of it which was rare for me during a film. Terrific acting from Joaquin Phoenix.

I think the incel thing is totally ridiculous - if anything the film holds a mirror right up to what's going on in the world right now, societal and political. That's what I took away from it anyway.

ManBurning
10-09-2019, 04:51 AM
I love when Mike and jay disagree this much; makes for a better episode. There were like 2 or 3 times where Mike was just like "nope. You are wrong", and I have to agree. Seemed like Jay had a bone to pick with the film, and Philips in particular, which made it impossible for him to enjoy it. I feel like I usually agree with Jay more, but I'm 100% with Mike on this one.

Really enjoyed this film. Solid 8/10. haven't seen too many movies this year which I've really liked, but this was such a well made film. I'm shocked Jay didn't like it as much either. I couldn't really see eye to eye with his criticisms. Oh well. I enjoyed it. That's all that matters in the end.

neorev
10-09-2019, 10:39 AM
It was filmed in NYC too, not just Newark & JC.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGA82ajAdo

I love Red Letter Media!

dlb
10-10-2019, 04:16 AM
I really liked it, once I let go that this is not a movie 100% about the iconic villain. I had some major gripes with it, but as a stand alone movie this was a thrilling ride that reminded me alot of "Falling Down" and "The Machinist", with a little "Taxi Driver" thrown in there aswell.

No words need to be said about Phoenix acting. This was just brilliant. You could really feel his pain when laughing which made for the most unsettling part of the movie on my end.

I too have to agree that the media is seeing something in this movie, that I truly can't. Maybe I'm alway too detached from movies knowing that this is fiction I'm seeing, but while the movie made me feel uneasy at times and was very gripping, I can't see how this might inspire anyone more than comic books, books, video games and other movies. It's the same old rule: don't seek explanations in the arts. If the seed is there, it will bloom either way.

Now let's dig in. What else did I like?



- Phoenix of course. This man is brillaint and unsettling in what he does. The laughter might be the best Joker laugh since Hamill, yet I would have wished for it to be more iconic towards the end. As Arthur becomes the Joker, I would have liked to see him be more in control of his condiition. Yet this was amazingly done either way!

- The degree of violence was perfectly balanced. It felt harsh and real when it happend. True outbursts instead of a mindless gore-fest. No John Wick moments that made you laugh in the face of death, but just true and cruel brutality on both sides.

- The soundtrack really elevates most of the scenes and reminded of some of Hans Zimmer's takes on the Joker. Eventhough these soundscapes are being used in pretty much every horror or psycho thriller these days, it fit very well in here.

- The last line was glorious!


What did I not like? Alot, but does it matter? Not really...

- Alot of people will hate this movie as it shows the Joker in a totally new light. Personally I see it as a one-shot comic book that allows a different view. Is Phoenix THE Joker? Is anyone THE Joker? This character is too ambigious and too old in comic book history to have a definite portrayal. Personally I think Mark Hamill's Joker is the best, even the Arkham games pay the character tribute in a way that clicks with me the most. But still, Phoenix manages to portray a thin line between loser, loner, charismatic murderer and cheerful trickster. The scene where he mocks the beaten up police man? The scene where he shoots the last business guy? When he confronts the camera after shooting Murray? THAT's where I was: "Wow, it's him!"

- I really don't like when characters faults are the cause of childhood trauma. While this might be the case for a lot of shortcomings in our society and for people to carry a burden, it's a rather boring explanation for a supervillain. In light of the film and what it wants to portray, it certainly fits. But this is an aspect I don't really like in this particular setting. For this character I would have wished for a true downfall instead of being risen in poverty and terrible circumstances.

- The connection to Batman was not enjoyable at all to me apart from the pole sliding. Why was Alfred such an asshole? And unfortunately I highly dislike Brett Cullen as an actor, but I'm glad it didn't go to Baldwin... Still, to shoehorn the Waynes into this movie fell a little flat in my eyes. I guess it all made sense in the end, but did we really need to see the murder in crime alley again?

- I wish the Joker himself would have been a little funnier at times, maybe more of a comedian indeed like in "The Killing Joke". I would have loved to see him struggling on stage more rather than getting beaten up by kids. He was a little bit too much of a loser for me with not alot of composure. Then again, there were scenes where I felt, "Yes, that's Joker and yes, that's the man who will rise to become Batman's biggest foe!". It was a little unbalanced for me as the scene with Murray could have been a little bit more tense. I would have liked Joker to be more in control and not feel so akward before shooting Murray. Then again, it serves the movie that it wants to be, not necesarily the Batman/Joker lore. He's still part Arthur, part Joker and not the fleshed out villain he will become.

- While I adore Zazie Beetz I didn't really get why that story thread had to be in the movie. The scenes with here were nice and enjoyable, but ultimately not necessary for the story imho. Or did these indeed subconciously give the film a lighter note when needed? Fill me in what you think guys!



Somebody above mentioned that he loves that this movie exists in these particular times. And I have to agree wholeheartedly. While I didn't like many aspects this one felt fresh, altough movies like this used to be made in the past. Let's hope they return!

Alot to dislike if you have a clear image of what the Joker should be in your mind. Yet as a standalone movie, this was magical. I felt terrible afterwards yet comically alive. Do I want to see it again? I don't know. Will I see it again? Probably.

Conan The Barbarian
10-10-2019, 07:57 AM
I have to disagree with some criticism over if this is joker or not. Itís been stated that this is just a telling or what comics fans call an ď elseworld ď tale. Phillips did a great job adding bits and pieces of jokers throughout the film and always points to the panel in killing joke when joker talks about his origin. One person ( not here) mentioned how 79 years of joker lore made it feel like they missed the point of joker. As if the viewer completely missed the point that itís just a different version and not a comic cannon version of the character.

Keep in mind that Arthur is the narrator here, and he is unreliable when it comes to his perspective. Which is why I donít think Thomas Wayne is the asshole he is made out to be, itís just that what Arthur thinks of him.

The beauty of this movie is that it makes you think whatís real or not. So many theories coming from fans. Phillips has mentioned one day he will explain what they were aiming for, but for now doesnít want to ruin the viewers experience.

Edit: I didnít want to double post, but fantastic job on Jaquin really getting pseudobulbar down in the movie and Phillips for writing it in. They sorta brought awareness to this condition


https://youtu.be/Uk7MdKMfypM

After watching this, I really do sympathize with this who suffer from this.

Conan The Barbarian
10-10-2019, 02:22 PM
Sorry for the double post,
https://gocreativeshow.com/cinematography-of-joker-with-lawrence-sher/

botley
10-10-2019, 02:41 PM
I think the incel thing is totally ridiculous - if anything the film holds a mirror right up to what's going on in the world right now, societal and political. That's what I took away from it anyway.
Not to my world (https://www.dailyxtra.com/is-joker-about-angry-white-men-or-for-them-its-still-unclear-163084). And it sounds like the world this film inhabits isn't a world I'm interested in seeing mirrored.

Conan The Barbarian
10-10-2019, 03:57 PM
Not to my world (https://www.dailyxtra.com/is-joker-about-angry-white-men-or-for-them-its-still-unclear-163084). And it sounds like the world this film inhabits isn't a world I'm interested in seeing mirrored.


https://media.giphy.com/media/srTYyZ1BjBtGU/giphy.gif

Conan The Barbarian
10-10-2019, 10:42 PM
I feel like people go full stupid when either trying to act progressive or just have some sort of chip on their shoulder when it comes to this movie. I have never seen this shit with any film.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/movies/joker-movie-controversy.html

This is fucking ridiculous.

GulDukat
10-11-2019, 06:38 AM
I feel like people go full stupid when either trying to act progressive or just have some sort of chip on their shoulder when it comes to this movie. I have never seen this shit with any film.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/movies/joker-movie-controversy.html

This is fucking ridiculous.Yeah, that's kind of a stretch. No one knew what he looked like or what his race was after the subway murders, and he was so decked out in makeup no one could tell what he really looked at one he was on the Murray Franklin show. The writer is intelligent, but trying a little too hard here.

dlb
10-11-2019, 07:14 AM
Aaaand here we go. Will be seeing it again on Monday. Let's see how it flows a second time around. :)

imail724
10-11-2019, 11:52 AM
https://thehardtimes.net/blog/review-joker-is-a-pointless-snoozefest-that-barely-inspired-me-to-shoot-anyone/?fbclid=IwAR1ruIlpSZSjE1KO6ULJT_bg45MEg5dpADLgA3BI zNNBCFYOZZUkyvuBtBg

Wretchedest
10-11-2019, 12:33 PM
Despite being sortof a great test of an actor, the Joker is already a bit annoying as an icon to me... But I probably would have seen this movie if there weren't multiple stupid conversations taking place around it.

Space Suicide
10-11-2019, 11:26 PM
But I probably would have seen this movie if there weren't multiple stupid conversations taking place around it.

And you give a shit about it because? If you wanna see it, see it.

Frozen Beach
10-11-2019, 11:39 PM
I wonder if the new Halloween film is gonna get controversy?

Alexandros
10-12-2019, 05:21 AM
Good film. Not the transformative cinematic experience some praisers claim, in my opinion. Phoenix is amazing of course, and the cinematography is beautiful(ly bleak). An interesting take on the character, though I agree that it is difficult to visualise this Joker as a mastermind opponent, at least up to the point the movie ends. I guess maybe he could transform into one if backed by a proper story that shows him gaining more control over his psyche (there was a glimpse of that towards the end). Not that I think it should, I'm perfectly happy with this film being a one-off. But yeah, more films like these please, less theme park attractions.

Oh and man, that whole incel angle or whatever so much fuss was made about...at no point in the film are Joker's actions glorified, nor is Arthur's transformation anything else than a terrible thing to behold. Will some people identify with the character? Probably yes, but that will always happen no matter how vile a character. This movie does not make it easy to sympathise with Joker/Arthur. Sure, you feel for the guy and what he goes through, but when he starts going dangerous, it's disconcerting.

Space Suicide
10-12-2019, 10:23 AM
I wonder if the new Halloween film is gonna get controversy?

I love John Wick but that guy is a walking genocide. Not a fucking peep for Parabellum earlier this year for the media. The film series is basically "gun violence porn" if you will.

imail724
10-12-2019, 01:36 PM
I found this review to be pretty spot on

https://youtu.be/G5vfOMSA-H8

eachpassingphase
10-12-2019, 03:37 PM
Husband and I saw it last night and had like a two-hour conversation about it afterward. I loved it, his portrayal of Joker made me SO uncomfortable in a way that I was unprepared for and I can't really explain it without comparing this Joker to Ledger's Joker.

Yes, both are darker/grittier portrayals of Joker. But Heath's Joker has a sort of dark charisma to him, a very typical anti-hero portrayal (but very well-acted obviously) that the shitty side of you sort of roots for because it's funny to do so. Joaquin's Joker made me both pity him and enraged at him simultaneously. I have worked in social services off and on my entire adult life, and I have met people just like Joaquin's Joker. It was chilling because it was very real to me. I could say a lot about that but I don't want to spoil the movie for people who are planning on watching it.

Also, the cinematography was gorgeous. I have a few very minor complaints about the structure of the movie (I don't know enough about film to articulate what I mean anyway), but those are overshadowed by Joaquin's performance and the way the movie looked.

I do understand the concern some people had about the idolization of Joker among shitty people, but that ship has long sailed with or without this movie.

Space Suicide
10-13-2019, 12:13 AM
Seen it tonight and really, really loved it. Very radically different portrayal and a complete reimagining to the Wayne family and Gotham crime overall. Most show Thomas Wayne as a righteous man with a beacon of hope to him, they did in this movie but exposed a different type of fraud to the character about his lack of concern or caring for some of the underclass. I enjoyed the gritty take on Gotham's underbelly from a different perspective. I know this is a one off but I really want to see how this movie universe's Batman would battle with this Joker portrayal.

The Joker in the film was a shattered man and came off erratic. However, the character fully changed from Arthur Fleck to Joker entirely the moment he killed his mother. The entire visit from his former co-workers onwards to the brilliant climax on Murray's Talk Show was completely the Joker we know from comic lore.

onthewall2983
10-13-2019, 01:25 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqpak5lFxvs

GulDukat
10-14-2019, 03:12 PM
The Gary Glitter track may be removed:
https://nypost.com/2019/10/14/joker-may-remove-track-by-pedophile-gary-glitter-from-future-releases/

Jinsai
10-14-2019, 03:25 PM
this "Oh no the INCELS are coming!!!!!" hype is the best useful nonsense since The Exorcist was boycotted by the Vatican.

Space Suicide
10-15-2019, 12:06 PM
The Gary Glitter track may be removed:
https://nypost.com/2019/10/14/joker-may-remove-track-by-pedophile-gary-glitter-from-future-releases/

I get the point of that song being in that scene but it felt so radically different than anything else on the soundtrack that it stands out like a sore thumb.

Frozen Beach
10-15-2019, 12:24 PM
https://www.nme.com/news/film/gary-glitter-will-not-receive-royalties-from-joker-rights-holders-confirm-2557310/amp
Glitter isn't getting money cause he sold the rights to the song years ago.

SM Rollinger
10-15-2019, 02:54 PM
Just saw it and it was a stunning film, anyone who says it's a dangerous film is just plain wrong.

sonic_discord
10-15-2019, 11:41 PM
Just saw it and it was a stunning film, anyone who says it's a dangerous film is just plain wrong.

I thought it felt "dangerous" in the way that The Downward Spiral & Antichrist Superstar did in the '90s. That is to say, "dangerous" in a good way, not "safe" like your standard big studio blockbuster movie. Even though the violence was way more sparse in Joker than a movie like Deadpool, the violence was treated very seriously and looked very realistic (that Randall scene... OMG), which made it much more effective and shocking than many other movies in the superhero/comic book movie genre. The Joker himself only actually murdered six people onscreen, with a strongly suggested seventh off-screen at the end (bloody footprints). My friends and I debated after the movie about whether or not he killed Sophie (and possibly her young daughter). I'm of the opinion that he did not because (like Gary, the little person who he spared after killing Randall) he liked her and she wasn't ever mean to him. Then again, this is the Joker, so anything's possible, but this is also a film about his transition from regular guy with a mental illness and history of physical abuse into the insanely sinister super villain we all know. It was way more intense and powerful than I had anticipated. I'm looking forward to seeing it again when it comes out on video (I rarely see movies more than once in theaters).

dlb
10-16-2019, 06:24 AM
I don't know how the audience in the US or the UK clicks, but on both viewings I found it incredibly annyoing that people were laughing at Arthur's laughing condition. For some it might have been a reflex as one tends to laugh as well as soon as somebody is laughing, but others... gave me the impression that they as well can't channel their emotions correctly and just had to laugh to overcome their uneasyness.

While I didn't make out any specific details on my second viewing I liked the movie the same the second time around. Only the music felt a little more off at times than it did the first time. Yet the soundtrack absolutely nails the scene in some parts (Arthur getting yelled at by Hoyt, but starts smiling manically e.g.).

My only gripe that still remains is the Murray scene, which in my books could have been handled a little better or maybe "cooler". But then again, that might have been intentional so not to make the Joker too cool of a villain. But something along the lines of "Now it's me who delivers the punchlines in this city" refering to Murrays question about a punchline missing, would have fit well imho.

A great movie nevertheless. Not a masterpiece in my books, but a damn good movie with an interesting spin and a glorious actor.

Gilpin
10-16-2019, 07:10 AM
I noticed the same thing, dlb. I figure people don't just laugh when they find something funny. They sometimes laugh when they can't express themselves more appropriately.

Conan The Barbarian
10-16-2019, 07:33 AM
I have seen it twice ( wanting to go more, but Iím not 23 anymore , and I want to wait for the 4k), only times my theater got a laugh was with Arthur and Gary in Arthurís apartment.

eskimo
10-16-2019, 06:41 PM
It was good. I liked it.

It was more of a spotlight on mental illness rather than anything else.

I agree with everyone who says it didn't need to be a movie about the joker set in the batman world.

My ex-girlfriend was a social worker, and she'd tell me stories of kids growing up in terrible places and being failed by the system, and this was that put to film. It was hard to watch, but also important.

Necrodoommonkey
10-20-2019, 01:50 PM
I didn’t like this movie at all. Joaquin Phoenix was great as always, but this was the most unnecessary, pretentious, and poorly written movie I’ve seen in a long time. The twists are painfully obvious. The “ambiguous” ending is not ambiguous at all considering the pivotal moment that happens after the fridge scene. The fact that Arthur stops caring about whether what his mother and TW told him is presented in the most unsubtle manner imaginable.

No subtlety whatsoever. The final act takes way too long to get to. The only good thing about this movie is the fact that Phoenix didn’t try to impersonate Heath Ledger’s voice like Jared Leto and Cameron Monaghan did.

Triggermine
10-21-2019, 04:34 AM
I didn’t like this movie at all. Joaquin Phoenix was great as always, but this was the most unnecessary, pretentious, and poorly written movie I’ve seen in a long time. The twists are painfully obvious. The “ambiguous” ending is not ambiguous at all considering the pivotal moment that happens after the fridge scene. The fact that Arthur stops caring about whether what his mother and TW told him is presented in the most unsubtle manner imaginable.

No subtlety whatsoever. The final act takes way too long to get to. The only good thing about this movie is the fact that Phoenix didn’t try to impersonate Heath Ledger’s voice like Jared Leto and Cameron Monaghan did.

It must be exhausting to be so caught up in thinking you're smarter than a film that you completely miss the point of it.

HWB
10-21-2019, 04:45 AM
This was a really good movie which I am keep thinking about, it made a huge impact upon me, like others have mentioned it had an amazing camera work and set-design, acting was on-point. I loved it honestly, every piece of it and I can't wait for it to come out digitally so I can watch it non-stop.

Jord
10-21-2019, 07:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqpak5lFxvs

I laughed so hard, I want to see this as an actual movie.

dlb
10-21-2019, 08:45 AM
Don't know if this needs a spoiler warning still, but what's everyone's take on the fridge scene? What does it mean to you? I really liked the camera work in this scene, yet I thought something very grim is about to happen. Nicely done!

Necrodoommonkey
10-21-2019, 10:03 AM
Don't know if this needs a spoiler warning still, but what's everyone's take on the fridge scene? What does it mean to you? I really liked the camera work in this scene, yet I thought something very grim is about to happen. Nicely done!

It seemed like a replacement for Ace Chemicals. They couldn't throw him in a vat of chemicals, so they had to show the death of Arthur and the emergence of Joker somehow. Arthur got in, and from that point on we only see Joker. We never see Arthur get out. When he's rehearsing his knock-knock joke and puts the gun to his own head, but then doesn't shoot himself, it's because Arthur is already gone. When he tells his "jokes" on the show and the audience gasps instead of cheering, it's not a delusion.

Or maybe it was just so his neighbor wouldn't hear him laughing. Or maybe it was because he used to get tied to a radiator and a fridge is the opposite of that. Or maybe it was a nod to Joe Chill. Or maybe it was some sort of coping mechanism that he uses all the time. It doesn't really matter. It could symbolize so many things that it's pointless trying to figure out what they were actually going for. This movie was heavily influenced by the Killing Joke, so it's a "multiple choice" situation.

dlb
10-21-2019, 05:27 PM
Yeah good thinking on that Ace Chemicals parallels. I was rather surprised that this scene became so pivotal as it was released as a TV spot without any context, making it seem rather comical. But on both viewings the audience was dead silent and rather serious when Arthur cleared the fridge and finally got in.

allegate
10-21-2019, 06:49 PM
It seemed like a replacement for Ace Chemicals. They couldn't throw him in a vat of chemicals, so they had to show the death of Arthur and the emergence of Joker somehow. Arthur got in, and from that point on we only see Joker. We never see Arthur get out. When he's rehearsing his knock-knock joke and puts the gun to his own head, but then doesn't shoot himself, it's because Arthur is already gone. When he tells his "jokes" on the show and the audience gasps instead of cheering, it's not a delusion.

Or maybe it was just so his neighbor wouldn't hear him laughing. Or maybe it was because he used to get tied to a radiator and a fridge is the opposite of that. Or maybe it was a nod to Joe Chill. Or maybe it was some sort of coping mechanism that he uses all the time. It doesn't really matter. It could symbolize so many things that it's pointless trying to figure out what they were actually going for. This movie was heavily influenced by the Killing Joke, so it's a "multiple choice" situation.
"Wanna know how I got these scars?"

DF118
10-21-2019, 09:41 PM
Nah, the fridge scene was probably just random idea that was thought up on the spot; someone thinking it was properly deep. It seems to have taken on much more significance than it should. Kinda reeks of film school symbolism.

Space Suicide
10-21-2019, 09:55 PM
Nah, the fridge scene was probably just random idea that was thought up on the spot; someone thinking it was properly deep. It seems to have taken on much more significance than it should. Kinda reeks of film school symbolism.

Or maybe he thought he was hiding from his problems?

theruiner
10-22-2019, 01:33 AM
It's obviously a reference to Indiana Jones.

Microwave Jellyfish
10-22-2019, 06:31 AM
It's obviously a reference to Indiana Jones.
Hey, Mimic 3 did it first - complete with the "surviving an explosion" part. Hate how Crystal Skull been pinching all the glory for a decade now. Credits where credits dude, please.

I took it as him hiding from his problems as well, especially with the cops on the phone.

mfte
10-22-2019, 10:06 AM
He went in there after he killed his mom right? Going back into the womb symbolism.

Conan The Barbarian
10-22-2019, 12:57 PM
Im going to take a stab and say since the radiator is in the shot, its was just his safe space from being abused?

ickyvicky
10-24-2019, 03:26 PM
There's a lot of talk about how people are now visiting the stairs - when they should really be careful because it's in a sketchy neighborhood of the Bronx. Hopefully this new tourism will help improve the area.

Conan The Barbarian
10-24-2019, 03:50 PM
There's a lot of talk about how people are now visiting the stairs - when they should really be careful because it's in a sketchy neighborhood of the Bronx. Hopefully this new tourism will help improve the area.

So you're saying I should go alone and at night to beat the traffic?

Self.Destructive.Pattern
10-24-2019, 08:52 PM
This movie made me cry, laugh, cry, then smirk through the rest of his unraveling. I haven't had a movie pull my emotions around like a rag doll in a longgg time; amazing work.

I really wish it would have ended with him just saying she wouldn't get the joke, but it still worked for me.

Triggermine
11-08-2019, 02:34 PM
https://batman-news.com/2019/11/06/zazie-beetz-fate-joker/

sonic_discord
11-08-2019, 03:12 PM
https://batman-news.com/2019/11/06/zazie-beetz-fate-joker/

I just saw this yesterday, confirming my suspicion that I posted about (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/5668-Joker?p=470343#post470343) on the previous page.

GulDukat
11-09-2019, 08:32 PM
Did this Joker remind anyone of Brandon Lee's Crow?

valiantsteed
11-10-2019, 01:12 PM
It's funny I seem to have perceived this film in a much different way than most.

I think this film was the perfect comic book villain origin story, something that had not been done before (or at least successfully - the Thanos in Infinity War is probably the only other respectable comparable), and given the failures of the genre concerning villains, this movie's biggest crime is that it will not live on outside of itself. How awesome would a Phoenix Joker performance be where he actually gets to be who he is at the end of the film for the entire two hours, battling Batman no less? Instead we have all this praising of this self contained movie that requires no world building. Where is the fun in that? This Joker dies now, and we are robbed of getting the see the brilliance of the character live on when all this exposition was put in to building him up to that point, which is even more depressing since we thought we couldn't get to this point after Ledger's performance, and here we are, only to start all over again, since Joker won't be able to be touched now for a while for its failure to live up to Phoenix's performance.

As far as all the incel commentary, I wanted to shoot it down so badly and write it off as nothing but an overreaction. And for the most part, that is very true throughout. But the one scene I could not help but acknowledge felt extremely dangerous to me was the car crash sequence. You can have frustration and reaction of the people, and that bubbling up in the background works so well for the film, but then you had hundreds (thousands?) of people holding this guy up as their saviour after shooting someone point blank in the face on TV? One maniac doing maniacal things works, even one team of psychos rescuing him from the transport, but inferring/suggesting that there is this following of many regular normal people who are like "yes, this makes sense to me as justice" and lets hold him up as this jesus like figure was highly concerning for me. I still don't think it would have any impact, in the same way music and video games don't make people violent, but with all this conversation this would have felt disingenuous to ignore, and I could have done without that.

Todd Philips also needs to keep quiet right now. Every time he speaks about the film or the reaction about it it does not do him any favours and makes people question his achievement. He made a masterpiece and people are loving it, both critically and financially. Enjoy it, man. Speak about the comic book tropes you nailed, that you clearly found so interesting. Batman and Joker being two sides of the same coin, and connecting that on the day Joker was created, Batman was also created, while having it be a film that had nothing to do with Batman, was nothing short of genius. It was the perfect homage to The Dark Knight, and in a lot of ways it's a spiritual prequel, playing off the idea that they are destined to do this forever. Because there is no Joker without Batman. And now there is no Batman without Joker. That was powerful.

Celebrating this as a non comic book comic book film is to shit on all that was achieved within the genre. If you wanted to do this film without any connection to that, you could have made the same movie, took out the Wayne backstory, and not called it Joker, and it basically would have worked just the same, but that's not what happened and there is a reason why. DC has struggled so hard to create what Marvel has captured with its properties, and oh what a tragedy it is that they finally nail something Marvel has never been able to do, and now they have zero inability to capitalize on that success. In that sense, it is a true stand alone film. A great one. It's just a shame that's all it will be, when you have The Batman right around the corner.

GulDukat
11-10-2019, 08:30 PM
Favorite line--"You're awful Murray..."

Kodiak33
11-11-2019, 08:14 AM
I saw this yesterday and loved it. What a performance by Phoenix (as usual). I can see how some people absolutely hated it, like comic book nerds that probably don't like the way the story tied in.

Balthier
11-11-2019, 10:29 AM
I love that this is a standalone movie. I think this world-building thing is a bit overrated. I mean, you have what? 20 Marvel movies where a villain tries to conquer Earth and there's the beam in the sky and we are on the verge of extinction multiple times but it's all fine, Avengers are joking and having fun and being pretty. There's no sense of danger. Some movies are basically the same from a structural point of view.

I mean, after the 3rd supervillain wrecking havoc does Earth even care about it anymore? If anyone dies, you simply build a time travel machine in a week and everyone's telling jokes and being charming and handsome and having no personality again.

allegate
11-11-2019, 11:16 AM
that's literally what comic books are though so...ok?

Kodiak33
11-11-2019, 01:28 PM
I love that this is a standalone movie. I think this world-building thing is a bit overrated. I mean, you have what? 20 Marvel movies where a villain tries to conquer Earth and there's the beam in the sky and we are on the verge of extinction multiple times but it's all fine, Avengers are joking and having fun and being pretty. There's no sense of danger. Some movies are basically the same from a structural point of view.

I mean, after the 3rd supervillain wrecking havoc does Earth even care about it anymore? If anyone dies, you simply build a time travel machine in a week and everyone's telling jokes and being charming and handsome and having no personality again.

This is basically what Scorsese was saying.

october_midnight
11-14-2019, 01:25 PM
Thought this was kinda cool to watch:

https://twitter.com/CultureCrave/status/1195032093014646784

GulDukat
11-17-2019, 07:29 AM
There could be a Joker 2. (https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/todd-phillips-has-been-mulling-a-joker-2-203426347.html)

The article states that the film is close to grossing a billion dollars WW.

Conan The Barbarian
11-17-2019, 08:18 AM
It crossed a billion.

Todd Phillips said he would do it if the sorry was right. But I hope they donít. Letís leave things the way they are.

allegate
11-17-2019, 12:14 PM
Made a billion without China, that's impressive.

october_midnight
11-20-2019, 09:22 AM
Looks like being the most profitable movie ever and hittin' a billy will change a lot of minds...

A Joker sequel is now 'in the works' with Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix 'likely to come back'. (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/joker-sequel-works-as-todd-phillips-eyes-more-dc-origin-movies-1256255)

allegate
11-20-2019, 11:09 AM
the worst thing they could do is make a sequel to a movie that doesn't need it. but that's what Hollywood excels at, I guess.

Conan The Barbarian
11-20-2019, 11:14 AM
I dont know how I feel about this.

SM Rollinger
11-20-2019, 12:04 PM
As long as the studio doesnt interfere too much (doubtful) I'm all for it.

Conan The Barbarian
11-20-2019, 12:36 PM
https://deadline.com/2019/11/joker-sequel-no-discussions-yet-todd-phillips-no-dc-origin-villian-films-planned-1202790774/

Apparently there were no such meetings and no sequel has been negotiated.

So as for right now, this movie is still a one off

Conan The Barbarian
11-21-2019, 10:39 AM
Phillips says its all bullshit.

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/11/todd-phillips-disputes-joker-sequel-rumors-no-contract-1202191289/

thefragile_jake
11-22-2019, 01:00 PM
Next to The Lighthouse and CLIMAX, this was easily my favorite film of the year.

theimage13
12-22-2019, 06:57 AM
Finally saw this, and my overall takeaway is: what's all the hype about?

Phoenix's acting was fantastic. I will not deny that for a second.

But the movie itself just did absolutely nothing for me. For what it's worth, I'm not a superhero movie person and couldn't care less about Marvel or DC or whatever "universe" this is. So I went into this for the sole purpose of just seeing a highly acclaimed standalone movie. And I finished without understanding what was so amazing or groundbreaking about it. A lot of people have praised it for taking a deep look at mental health, but I don't get it. Sure, the main character has a mental disorder. And they show that he's losing his support system. But they're doing so in a highly unbelievable way in which he gets away with murder, gets invited on TV for no reason (the reason they gave was nonsense), then once he finally gets arrested he gets saved by bunch of vigilantes who apparently steal an ambulance, follow the police scanner, track down the ID and location of the car transporting him, t-bone it without killing him, and then celebrate him like a hero? None of this makes the "mental health" angle of the show mean a thing to real life, because it's all a fantasy world.

So ignoring that part and just focusing on the overall movie, it just didn't do anything for me. There was nothing groundbreaking about the general concept of "guy is outcast, guy snaps, guy kills people". It's a tale as old as time. Sure, Phoenix's acting is Oscar-worthy, and I liked the direction (directing?). But the story itself just didn't grab me at all. It's not like this was an awful movie; I just don't understand the level of popularity and hype it received

Space Suicide
12-22-2019, 04:12 PM
Finally saw this, and my overall takeaway is: what's all the hype about?

Phoenix's acting was fantastic. I will not deny that for a second.

But the movie itself just did absolutely nothing for me. For what it's worth, I'm not a superhero movie person and couldn't care less about Marvel or DC or whatever "universe" this is. So I went into this for the sole purpose of just seeing a highly acclaimed standalone movie. And I finished without understanding what was so amazing or groundbreaking about it. A lot of people have praised it for taking a deep look at mental health, but I don't get it. Sure, the main character has a mental disorder. And they show that he's losing his support system. But they're doing so in a highly unbelievable way in which he gets away with murder, gets invited on TV for no reason (the reason they gave was nonsense), then once he finally gets arrested he gets saved by bunch of vigilantes who apparently steal an ambulance, follow the police scanner, track down the ID and location of the car transporting him, t-bone it without killing him, and then celebrate him like a hero? None of this makes the "mental health" angle of the show mean a thing to real life, because it's all a fantasy world.

So ignoring that part and just focusing on the overall movie, it just didn't do anything for me. There was nothing groundbreaking about the general concept of "guy is outcast, guy snaps, guy kills people". It's a tale as old as time. Sure, Phoenix's acting is Oscar-worthy, and I liked the direction (directing?). But the story itself just didn't grab me at all. It's not like this was an awful movie; I just don't understand the level of popularity and hype it received

The general hatred DC receives and how formulaic Marvel has gotten (still good mostly) it was a nice surprise to see this sort of turn for a movie of this "genre" and classification. It was one of my favorite movies in awhile and I enjoyed it a great deal but I'm not gonna act like it's transcending to cinema history.

As for hype and popularity, I don't go by stuff like that for music, movies and television shows to gauge my interest. I can't for the life of me understand what the fuck is so great about Avatar. I think its overhyped and ho hum but people went ravenous for it. not my thing. It's whatever.

Sometimes you won't "get it" if there's "something to get" out of stuff like this.

Balthier
12-23-2019, 08:17 AM
How couldn't this be overhyped? We are living the era of comic book movies. Joker is just a huge name. You decide to show his origin, there will be hype.

I mean, the Guardians of the Galaxy were completely irrelevant and silly and pretty much stupid (and so are the movies) and even they got hyped up. It is what it is.

Difference is that Joker is actually a good movie, it has a heart, it is not filled with propaganda bullshit. One of the best movies of 2019, if not the best.

Reznor2112
01-03-2020, 03:11 PM
Just saw this last night and loved it. Take away the DC universe side of it and it was just a great film and a nice tribute to Scorsese’s darker films.

The highlights of the entire was was the score (Hildur is a just fantastic. Loved her score for Chernobyl as well) and...seeing a director such as Todd Phillips, known for douche bro comedies...actually pull off a great dramatic film. He didn’t just direct it but wrote it as well. And from some of the behind the scenes footage and interviews he obsessively directed it. I love seeing pop out of their areas of recognition and excel. Bravo my friend.

only complaint was the tie in of another DC character in the middle and I would’ve like to have had the film end during the car cheer and delete the extra little scene all together. That felt more like a post credit scene. Felt odd ending the film with the fade to black and then coming back the way it did

overall though...can’t wait to watch it again.

Conan The Barbarian
01-04-2020, 10:36 AM
Just saw this last night and loved it. Take away the DC universe side of it and it was just a great film and a nice tribute to Scorsese’s darker films.

The highlights of the entire was was the score (Hildur is a just fantastic. Loved her score for Chernobyl as well) and...seeing a director such as Todd Phillips, known for douche bro comedies...actually pull off a great dramatic film. He didn’t just direct it but wrote it as well. And from some of the behind the scenes footage and interviews he obsessively directed it. I love seeing pop out of their areas of recognition and excel. Bravo my friend.

only complaint was the tie in of another DC character in the middle and I would’ve like to have had the film end during the car cheer and delete the extra little scene all together. That felt more like a post credit scene. Felt odd ending the film with the fade to black and then coming back the way it did

overall though...can’t wait to watch it again.

Well, you cant have Gotham without the Waynes.

As far as the end of the movie, its supposed to kinda fit in with the " Hey, was all this just made up ?" because if you look at how that room is setup and the office with his social worker is setup, they match. Also the time on the clock matches. The whole mystery of it not knowing whats real and whats not fits the character of Joker so perfectly.

Space Suicide
01-04-2020, 10:49 AM
Hits home video this Tuesday, the 7th.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeyhtYD3Dkc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFSJiqNdbgU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbliHNs4q14

SM Rollinger
01-04-2020, 05:39 PM
Excited! I have the day off from work too so I know what I'll be doing!

allegate
01-06-2020, 11:09 AM
Hildur Guūnadůttir with a well-deserved win for the score last night.

Space Suicide
01-11-2020, 06:00 PM
Hildur Guūnadůttir with a well-deserved win for the score last night.

I loved the OST so much I had to buy it when FYE released it on record.

bobbie solo
01-13-2020, 04:15 PM
the Academy got so excited that this fucking movie made a ton of money to go along with it's critical acclaim that they over-nominated the hell out of it & it pushed other, more deserving movies out of the way as a result. Bullshit.

Jon
01-13-2020, 04:26 PM
the Academy got so excited that this fucking movie made a ton of money to go along with it's critical acclaim that they over-nominated the hell out of it & it pushed other, more deserving movies out of the way as a result. Bullshit.

Academy gonna Academy. There is absolutely no reason for Scorsese/Tarantino to be on these lists other than they're who they are. The Irishman and Once Upon A Time... were both enjoyable, but I wouldn't even put them in the Top 10 from last year.

october_midnight
01-13-2020, 04:30 PM
It would appear that another year's nominations brings with it yet again another year's worth of complaining on Twitter.

theimage13
01-13-2020, 04:58 PM
It would appear that another year's nominations brings with it yet again another year's worth of complaining on Twitter.

The thing is...contests mean there are losers. So as soon as you have losers, you'll have people complaining about who won or lost. Every. Single. Time. (Granted, some complaints are more valid than others, and this kind of awards show will always have a mix of both.)

marodi
01-13-2020, 05:20 PM
Arguing, you're doing it wrong.

You have to wait for Phoenix to win ( which he will do, unless Jonathan Pryce steals it) and then, we can all properly argue about whom deserved it the most: Ledger or Phoenix.

Oh, the endless possibilities...

Hildur is going to win too, by the way. And she'll deserve it.

Wretchedest
01-13-2020, 07:25 PM
This is the ultimate validation to the notion that the canon of movie history is aimed at becoming a series of posters on some guys dorm room wall

GulDukat
01-13-2020, 08:06 PM
Academy gonna Academy. There is absolutely no reason for Scorsese/Tarantino to be on these lists other than they're who they are. The Irishman and Once Upon A Time... were both enjoyable, but I wouldn't even put them in the Top 10 from last year.I think Phoenix deserves an award for best actor.

Jon
01-13-2020, 09:45 PM
I think Phoenix deserves an award for best actor.

Me too, actually. That being said it'll probably be Adam Driver... who I also have no problem with.

SM Rollinger
01-13-2020, 10:03 PM
Me too, actually. That being said it'll probably be Adam Driver... who I also have no problem with.

Adam is really good, too bad he was given total shit to work with in Star Wars, but oh well.

edit: if anything, the payoff is it raised his star, the only thing I remember him from pre TFA was Girls because my ex watched that show.

Conan The Barbarian
01-14-2020, 03:56 PM
the Academy got so excited that this fucking movie made a ton of money to go along with it's critical acclaim that they over-nominated the hell out of it & it pushed other, more deserving movies out of the way as a result. Bullshit.

Yea because of all the other countless awards that movie has been bringing in, it doesnt deserve it.