The Jeffrey Epstein Sex Crimes and Conspiracy Thread

[Sarah K]

This Jeffrey Epstein case is quite the shitshow, huh?

[Demogorgon]

This Jeffrey Epstein case is quite the shitshow, huh?

Shitshow is mild. The conspiracy theory news sites are going crazy about all the people the guy is supposedly connected to.

[Jinsai]

Shitshow is mild. The conspiracy theory news sites are going crazy about all the people the guy is supposedly connected to.

And, for some strange reason, they draw "obvious" connections to everyone except his long time friend, Trump, who actually said in 2002 "I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side."

[Demogorgon]

And, for some strange reason, they draw "obvious" connections to everyone except his long time friend, Trump, who actually said in 2002 "I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side."

I've actually seen more than a few of them mention Trump as well, i don't think his name is escaping the lists. But whether anything actually happens to the rest of these people is the real trick.

[sweeterthan]

Plus, a person has accused trump of raping her at Epstein’s house years ago. He’s already directly tied to him and his transgressions.

https://twitter.com/iansmadrig/status/1068605537246425088?s=21

[Jinsai]

and I still can't understand how these charges are now seeming like a stunning revelation... this was in the news, all over it... for a brief second I guess, in 2016, before testimony was withdrawn because of (if I recall) concerns for safety.

[Cookster426]

I'm interested to see what happens with the Labor Secretary, Alexander Acosta since he's the one that gave Epstein a slap on the wrist in Florida and violated Victim's Rights laws by not notifying the victim's of the deal. My guess is nothing will happen to him since all politicians are crooked and get away with everything.

[elevenism]

This could be big. Suppose Epstein flips. Wasn't there word of him having cameras installed in his house?

[sweeterthan]

This could be big. Suppose Epstein flips. Wasn't there word of him having cameras installed in his house?

I wish I could believe he would suffer any consequence. He’s above the law. King of the world. Everyone else is his subjects, loyal or not. We’re 2.5 years in and no amount of assault allegations is enough to sway his voters.

[theimage13]

I wish I could believe he would suffer any consequence. He’s above the law. King of the world. Everyone else is his subjects, loyal or not. We’re 2.5 years in and no amount of assault allegations is enough to sway his voters.

True. He could rape someone on 5th Avenue and his voters would just say "she deserved it". Or dismiss it as a conspiracy. Body double. Fake news hit job. You name it. There is literally nothing he could do to get those morons to turn on him.

[eversonpoe]

True. He could rape someone on 5th Avenue and his voters would just say "she deserved it". Or dismiss it as a conspiracy. Body double. Fake news hit job. You name it. There is literally nothing he could do to get those morons to turn on him.

no, they would say "rape is made up, it's not real"

[Jinsai]

no, they would say "rape is made up, it's not real"

They've been saying this already whenever it suits their agenda...

[BRoswell]

no, they would say "rape is made up, it's not real"

It's just another hoax invented by the Chinese or ISIS or Democrats or some shit like that.

[elevenism]

I'm interested to see what happens with the Labor Secretary, Alexander Acosta since he's the one that gave Epstein a slap on the wrist in Florida and violated Victim's Rights laws by not notifying the victim's of the deal. My guess is nothing will happen to him since all politicians are crooked and get away with everything.
I mean, this whole shit: I originally thought it was just some insane conspiracy theory, years ago- "Lolita Express," Kevin Spacey, Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, etc.
But yeah, fucking Acosta- what gets me, most of all, was the bit in the original deal where no co conspirators could be prosecuted. A lot of people are saying that this is about wealth, but, what if it's about something more akin to, like, blackmail?

And now, Acosta, as labor secretary, would oversee federal sex trafficking cases. Is that just a disgusting coincidence, or, is there something else there?

Either way, I still can't believe the Epstein thing: the black book, the private island- I still can't believe it's fucking REAL. It's like a movie.

Edit:
All of this being said, I hate to admit it, but, in this "post truth" era, I'm afraid you guys are right. Even video evidence against trump would likely be discounted.

[ickyvicky]

I really hope they say no to this

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/11/us/jeffrey-epstein-bail/index.html

[sweeterthan]

Epstein supposedly successfully committed suicide. It makes me sick that he can’t talk and won’t serve the time h deserves. No justice here.

[Demogorgon]

Cross-post from Dead Souls: Yeah, he didn't commit suicide, he was suicide-ed. Big difference. I hope they dig through every ounce of his finances, his data, and every little diary and ledger he's ever kept and nail some big time players to the wall.

[onthewall2983]

Or maybe he isn't dead at all but in witness protection

[Sarah K]

I was gonna say in b4 conspiracy theories and folks trying to imply that someone in prison murdered him because they have a false perception of what prison is like. But wow - both were done in record time.

[Demogorgon]

I was gonna say in b4 conspiracy theories and folks trying to imply that someone in prison murdered him because they have a false perception of what prison is like. But wow - both were done in record time.

You're of course free to believe whatever you like, but it is really, really suspicious. And it's not the first time something like this has happened. I'm not going to say it was the Clintons or Trump or whoever, it's much easier to believe somebody in the system DID think that there was a conspiracy and didn't want him getting away with it all. You give humans far too much credit if you really don't think numerous people wanted him dead because they went too deep down the Pizzagate trail.

I mean, even people like AOC are asking for an inquiry and calling this suspicious.

[onthewall2983]

Both left and right are in seeming agreement about it which would be funny if it weren't so infuriating.

[Volband]

I was gonna say in b4 conspiracy theories and folks trying to imply that someone in prison murdered him because they have a false perception of what prison is like. But wow - both were done in record time.
So a person who allegedly has some S E R I O U S dirt on high profile people, and already tried to commit suicide once, thus being under a 24/7 surveillance to make sure he won't commit another suicide attempt... AGAIN, then eventually doing just that is not suspicous at all?

I absolutely loathe conspiracies, especially because people try to desperately connect everything bad to their detested political power, aka. the weather is bad so fuck trump, he obviously used some weather-altering missiles. But this is on a whole different level. As a matter of fact, the most educated guess would imply that it is very, very, VERY fishy, and you have to wear the heaviest of tinfoil hats (like Alex Jones-level) to try to ridicule those, who think this is fishy.

[DF118]

Or maybe he isn't dead at all but in witness protection

That's actually entirely possible, if there's any truth to the claim that he "belonged to intelligence".

But I suspect that he did commit suicide.

[onthewall2983]

Until something overwhelmingly obvious comes to light that suggests otherwise, I believe he took his own life. The fact he was on suicide watch makes it a little fishy but I would guess he found some way to do it.

[Jinsai]

I’m not a conspiracy theorist but this is weird... he already attempted suicide and was supposedly on high suicide watch. He should have been in a solitary padded cell in a straight jacket. How did he pull it off?

but even then, 24/7 surveillance and he manages to hang himself???

[Sarah K]

He was NOT on suicide watch at the time of his death.

[Volband]

Until something overwhelmingly obvious comes to light that suggests otherwise, I believe he took his own life. The fact he was on suicide watch makes it a little fishy but I would guess he found some way to do it.
I don't think too many people question if he really did commit suicide. The question is how could he do it. You would think based on the things he possible knew and that he already tried it once, his captors were making absolutely sure that he won't even accidentally trip, let alone hangs himself.

It's just all too convenient.


He was NOT on suicide watch at the time of his death.
Then the question is: why not?

[Sarah K]

He was likely deemed stable. Suicide watch is very labor-intensive and therefore, expensive. And if you know anything about prisons, jails, and mental health, they will do even less than the absolute bare minimum in order to save a nickel.

[Volband]

He was likely deemed stable. Suicide watch is very labor-intensive and therefore, expensive. And if you know anything about prisons, jails, and mental health, they will do even less than the absolute bare minimum in order to save a nickel.
Let's put it this way then: if anyone wanted him to speak up, they would paid all expenses and then some from their own pockets. It's been nearly 4 years since the last elections, and people still talk about e-mails and tax returns. Can you even imagine the amount of leverage it would provide to know your opponents were (in some way or another) part of a pedophile sex ring? Obviously no one could profit from it, because people were knee-deep in it from both sides.

When did he try his first suicide? Two weeks ago? Does anyone seriously think that there is a mental evaluation which would deem him stable this fast? I had a relative trying to commit suicide, and they were held in a mental ward for months - and they did not even have any incentive to kill themselves, unlike Epstein, who faced a very, very grim future.

I mean, sure, let's hear all kinds of opinions, maybe it is the beginning of 12 angry men, where your assumption of it being a benign accident, nothing more sounds ridiculous at first, but we will eventually come around, but some butterfly-knife action will be needed for people to be swayed. Right now, the argument for it not being (directly or indirectly) a perpetrated by some higher people sounds absolutely unlikely. He wasn't just your regular sex offender John.

[Magtig]

According to multiple people claiming to work as prison guards on reddit, there is no way this isn't wildly suspicious. They said people who attempt suicide are not taken off suicide watch within a week, the cells are designed to make it next to impossible to kill yourself with the objects in the room (like bedsheets which are too thick to turn into a noose), and even more crucially a guard is posted outside the room.

So they take him off suicide watch which removes the guards, allow objects into the room with which he can use to kill himself, and then this problematic human who has dirt on so many powerful and rich people takes care of himself or someone kills him. If we're to believe the SOP described by these people who work at prisons then someone clearly put that into motion.

Also, I mostly fucking hate conspiracy theories, but the financial ones (aka the "boring" ones) have turned out to be true in quite a number of cases. Epstein partied with billionaires & world leaders, and probably supplied them with minors to rape. What he knows could affect entire organizations, maybe even governments, not just individuals.

See also: Daphne Caruana Galizia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_Caruana_Galizia#Investigation_and_absence_o f_a_public_inquiry_into_the_circumstances_of_the_a ssassination), the reporter who lead the charge that resulted in the Panama Papers being published. She was destroyed by a car bomb, and they let the fucking people who did it WALK on the 5th (yes, five days ago). Didn't even do an investigation. It's fuuuuucked up.

[allegro]

I was gonna say in b4 conspiracy theories and folks trying to imply that someone in prison murdered him because they have a false perception of what prison is like. But wow - both were done in record time.

It looks suspicious, even to people who’ve been IN prison.

But this won’t stop the Epstein investigation.

[Demogorgon]

It looks suspicious, even to people who’ve been IN prison.

But this won’t stop the Epstein investigation.

This is a key point, because that cat is already out of the bag, and IF someone did something to Epstein either to shut him up or for personal vengeance, IF, then that is just going to add to the scrutiny. If the scumbucket being dead becomes the reason all of this gets the deep investigation it needs to, well, sucks to be him. I just hope they really weren't counting on him taking the stand as a witness.

[theimage13]

Look: we had a massive manhunt in my state a couple years ago. Turns out the prison staff basically LET THEM OUT for a small fee.

So if you really mean to tell me that you don't believe it's possible that somebody who had pedophile-dirt on the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world ended up getting offed by someone who didn't want them talking, then I'm sorry, but that's just laughably naive.

Is it possible that a ridiculously wealthy guy who went from being able to do literally anything he could imagine to living in a cell just couldn't handle it, went insane, and offed himself? Sure. That's also a possibility. But if you think that's the ONLY thing that could have happened....really? Really?

And I know it's been posted in some message somewhere, but this should be in bold: he was NOT on suicide watch.

Regardless of who killed him, I hope whatever evidence was recovered from him prior to this has not been compromised or outright destroyed, and that people are brought to justice.

[Sarah K]

Eh I understand how this stuff can be entertaining for a few days. But I hope it blows over quick and the conversation can finally center on the survivors.

[allegro]

Good article here on what could happen with the investigation and the civil suit:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/where-will-jeffrey-epsteins-legal-cases-go-after-his-death.html

[theimage13]

Eh I understand how this stuff can be entertaining for a few days. But I hope it blows over quick and the conversation can finally center on the survivors.

I wouldn't say I'm remotely entertained by any of it. Disturbed and perturbed, yes. Entertained, fuck no.

[sweeterthan]

I wouldn't say I'm remotely entertained by any of it. Disturbed and perturbed, yes. Entertained, fuck no.

Same. I literally felt my stomach turn when I read the news. I definitely believe he could’ve killed himself but I feel like someone let him. The whole thing is gross. I need a new planet to start over on, please.

ETA: just saw trump’s Clinton conspiracy retweets. This confirms his involvement imo.

[Volband]

It's not everyday I get to see someone indirectly defend high profile pedophiles. And the high profile part is important, because when we are talking about some lowlife criminals, they may have several issues themselves, which doesn't make things right, but what good do we get by dragging some mentally deranged fella through the dirt over and over again? Not these people though. These are the absolute worst, basically doing it like a hobby, and while I am personally not against rich people having rich priviliges, because it is unavoidable, the line should probably be drawn way, way, way, waaaaay before running a pedophile sex circle without any consequences.

I say no, don't move on. Don't say meh. This is not entertaining. None of this is entertaining. Tending to the wounded should always be a thing, but casually dismissing the core of the problem will only result in more people being hurt. This is almost the literal definition of getting away with murder in daylight. You can't unrape anyone, but you and we all could at least try our earnest to make sure that at least we get as much of the perpetraters as we can. We can never tell a rape victim it never happened, but we can at least tell them that they are behind bars.

So no, being completely apathetic to the point where you may even come across as apologetic to these bastards who let this suicide happen just after a few hours after the event is not exactly doing our best. We should demand for people to be held accountable, but I think many people are much more obsessed with the hairstyle of the president, or the tweets of his opposition, than a VIP whistleblower having a very unlikely end. And that's sad. Very sad.

[theimage13]

just saw trump’s Clinton conspiracy retweets.

JFC, I'm afraid to ask.

[theimage13]

Good article here on what could happen with the investigation and the civil suit:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/where-will-jeffrey-epsteins-legal-cases-go-after-his-death.htmlV

"Page not found"

Edit: ah, looks like your paste just had an extra double-tap of that V at the end of the address. Been there, done that.

[allegro]

"Page not found"

Edit: ah, looks like your paste just had an extra double-tap of that V at the end of the address. Been there, done that.

Sorry, pasted it while a passenger in the car, might have hit a bump. Fixed.

[Wretchedest]

We are all completely fucked. This has brought out all the stupid arm chair bullshit

[Swykk]

I’m more upset we probably won’t get that clients list now because everyone involved should be brought all the way down.

[Demogorgon]

I’m more upset we probably won’t get that clients list now because everyone involved should be brought all the way down.

What i'm hoping is, with Epstein deceased, there's no need for privacy or client confidentiality, and that whatever holdings he has that weren't able to be searched/seized due to client privilege will now be wide open for the feds to move in on and collect. Assuming of course that it hasn't all been deleted or otherwise destroyed by now.

[allegro]

Epstein’s house was raided and the Feds have a SHITLOAD of evidence, including photographs and hard drives and Amazon receipts.

Ghislaine Maxwell is still alive and is in likely to be in deep doo-doo, as is everyone else in these records.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/09/twisted-photos-unsealed-in-jeffrey-epstein-sex-slave-case/amp/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/british-socialite-ghislaine-maxwell-spotlight-after-epstein-s-apparent-suicide-n1041111

https://www.newsweek.com/ghislaine-maxwell-trends-twitter-hours-after-news-epsteins-apparent-suicide-1453654

[theimage13]

Wow, the crazies are out already.

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68449781_2658754487489677_6071684975890006016_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQlzS5eit5WkFEjPPLA8gutDjWA1lsrGrOywru7eN9E CF6PjWvijdmqBL3akpqvOkeM&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=809c1c0b14640486dd85f57392de4927&oe=5DEACFFD

[allegro]

This is interesting:

Prison experts are stunned and angry that Jeffrey Epstein was taken off suicide watch (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/prison-experts-are-stunned-angry-jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-n1041121)


”For them to pull him off suicide watch is shocking,” Cameron Lindsay, a former warden who worked at three federal facilities, told NBC News. “For someone this high-profile, with these allegations and this many victims, who has had a suicide attempt in the last few weeks, you can take absolutely no chances.”


“Once an inmate has been placed on watch, the watch may not be terminated, under any circumstance, without the program coordinator or designee performing a face-to-face evaluation,” according to the federal Bureau of Prisons official guidelines issued in 2007.

The FBI is investigating the case, law enforcement officials told NBC News. The Bureau of Prisons will also launch an internal “after-action” probe, according to department veterans.

“It’s too early to say what I think should happen, but if this did occur as we believe that it did, some staff are going to have some hard questions to answer,” said Lindsay, who served as warden at the nearby Metropolitan Detention Center from 2007 to 2009.

Bob Hood, a former federal Bureau of Prisons chief of internal affairs and former warden at the ADX Florence "supermax" prison in Colorado, said he also was perplexed by the decision to remove the suicide safeguards.

“Under the circumstances, I would have a staff member sitting there or have a camera on him 24/7 while he was in my custody, purely to cover my butt,” Hood said. “I know that sounds tacky, but this is not your average inmate.”

Attorney General William Barr issued a statement expressing concern over the case, saying he was appalled and that Epstein’s death “raises serious questions that must be answered.”

Sen. Ben Sasse, R-Neb., used far starker language in a scathing letter to Barr.

“Every single person in the Justice Department — from your main Justice headquarters staff all the way to the night-shift jailer — knew that this man was a suicide risk, and that his dark secrets couldn’t be allowed to die with him," Sasse said.

"Given Epstein’s previous attempted suicide, he should have been locked in a padded room under unbroken, 24/7, constant surveillance. Obviously, heads must roll.”

[Demogorgon]

Wow, the crazies are out already.

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68449781_2658754487489677_6071684975890006016_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQlzS5eit5WkFEjPPLA8gutDjWA1lsrGrOywru7eN9E CF6PjWvijdmqBL3akpqvOkeM&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=809c1c0b14640486dd85f57392de4927&oe=5DEACFFD

Yeah, that sort of thing is getting kinda out there. That's wayyyyyyy overthinking and overdramatising it, in my opinion.

[allegro]

https://twitter.com/sbagen/status/1160194222127046656?s=20

https://twitter.com/BarbMcQuade/status/1160287934492422144?s=20

[allegro]

An aside regarding suicides in jail cells:

https://www.theroot.com/black-man-found-dead-hanging-in-a-cell-in-the-same-jail-1832356608

[theimage13]

This is interesting:

Prison experts are stunned and angry that Jeffrey Epstein was taken off suicide watch (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/prison-experts-are-stunned-angry-jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-n1041121)

This is what makes me think it's entirely plausible that if he wasn't directly murdered, someone could have greased the wheels to get him pulled from suicide watch. News headline comes out that he tried to off himself? Slip some money to (or blackmail) the people who can take him off of suicide watch so that he'll just kill himself. Seems to me like it would be a very easy way to "eliminate" someone without having to get a third party to actually do it and then cover all the forensics. If a guy's already thrown his own noose over a tree branch, why go to the trouble of shooting him if you can just kick the stool out from under him?

(Again, not saying that this IS what happened. Just...seriously, in 2019, nothing would surprise me.)

And on that note...I would suggest maybe opening a new thread or putting this talk in Random General Headlines so that we can reserve this space specifically for sexual asshattery and focus more on both perps and survivors in general than on the bizarre circumstances around this case.

[sweeterthan]

This is what makes me think it's entirely plausible that if he wasn't directly murdered, someone could have greased the wheels to get him pulled from suicide watch. News headline comes out that he tried to off himself? Slip some money to (or blackmail) the people who can take him off of suicide watch so that he'll just kill himself. Seems to me like it would be a very easy way to "eliminate" someone without having to get a third party to actually do it and then cover all the forensics. If a guy's already thrown his own noose over a tree branch, why go to the trouble of shooting him if you can just kick the stool out from under him?

(Again, not saying that this IS what happened. Just...seriously, in 2019, nothing would surprise me.)

And on that note...I would suggest maybe opening a new thread or putting this talk in Random General Headlines so that we can reserve this space specifically for sexual asshattery and focus more on both perps and survivors in general than on the bizarre circumstances around this case.

edit: starting a new thread

[Wretchedest]

Yeah, that sort of thing is getting kinda out there. That's wayyyyyyy overthinking and overdramatising it, in my opinion.

It's literally a person lying about having first hand knowledge, and then people sharing it because they're dumb enough to believe him

[Demogorgon]

It's literally a person lying about having first hand knowledge, and then people sharing it because they're dumb enough to believe him

Basically.

[theimage13]

It's literally a person lying about having first hand knowledge, and then people sharing it because they're dumb enough to believe him

Or sharing it to laugh at them. The person who I found it from was sharing it as a "fucking hell, really?" kind of post.

[Demogorgon]

Or sharing it to laugh at them. The person who I found it from was sharing it as a "fucking hell, really?" kind of post.

I don't doubt that, either. There are entire troll farms dedicated to perpetuating dumb inaccurate shit.

[allegro]

Basically.

I wanna see the body! :-)

[Demogorgon]

I wanna see the body! :-)

Allegedly (and I haven't seen the source or the original pictures, just a meme) there's pictures going around comparing his face while he's alive to his face when he's dead, and supposedly his nose is different, earlobes are different, etc. Again though, I haven't seen any of the supposed source material though, just a shitty meme.

[MrLobster]

I'm willing to believe that his death is staged and he's contained elsewhere now talking to the Feds. He may never see a day in court but he won't have a life again anywhere near what he knew it.

I'm also willing to believe that the prison fucked up on the suicide watch thing and he, knowing what he did was illegal and not wanting to face justice decided to kill himself.

25/75 are my odds...

Time will tell if there are other arrests and prosecution.

[allegro]

No word from Ghislaine Maxwell, yet, either? Did she disappear into the witness protection program?

[Demogorgon]

A news report i read earlier said she was currently traveling abroad, and avoiding the US for fear of being arrested. So i wonder if this will turn into a global hunt, or if they'll find her dead somewhere as well.

Edit: this is from a few days ago. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/09/documents-released-about-jeffrey-epstein-and-ghislaine-maxwell.html

[ickyvicky]

On the radio this morning, a former inmate said it is impossible for Jeffrey to have committed suicide. The ceilings are too high, the blanket is paper thin, they don't allow a belt. So unless they gave him a pill or something.... This thing is so messed up.

[DF118]

It looks like the prison really fucked this up. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/attorney-general-rips-failure-of-prison-officials-to-keep-epstein-alive-vows-to-investigate-co-conspirators/2019/08/12/61e9c570-bd08-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html)

There’s some interesting whistleblowing in the above article (after the Barr bullshit).

[Demogorgon]

On the radio this morning, a former inmate said it is impossible for Jeffrey to have committed suicide. The ceilings are too high, the blanket is paper thin, they don't allow a belt. So unless they gave him a pill or something.... This thing is so messed up.

He was in cardiac arrest when the found him, according to most reports, which, while not impossible after/during a hanging, it is uncommon. Cardiac arrest usually tells me some sort of drugs were involved.

[Demogorgon]

Daily Mail and the Washington Examiner are reporting that FBI is raiding Epstein's island as we speak. I'm trying to find a better source, both of those news sites are notoriously messy.

[thelastdisciple]

Interesting thread by Seth Abramson, looking for any connections that speak to a possible Trump/Epstein meet.

1161006911560589319

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk

[allegro]

He was in cardiac arrest when the found him, according to most reports, which, while not impossible after/during a hanging, it is uncommon. Cardiac arrest usually tells me some sort of drugs were involved.

From the quick academic research that I just did, it appears that cardiac arrest happens a LOT. That’s often what CAUSES the actual death.

When Anthony Bourdain hanged himself, I looked up methods of hanging, out of some morbid curiosity, and was quite surprised at how easy it is; you can be sitting on a floor and hang yourself from a doorknob or a bed if you do it right. (Which is why it’s sometimes confused with autoerotic asphyxiation.)

You can hang yourself with your own shirt.

This idea of people hanging from chandeliers is from the movies.

Hanging is the 2nd most common form of suicide.

Either way, my husband keeps bringing up Frank Pentangeli from The Godfather.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=64-PGJpKQZg

[Demogorgon]

I'd done a little searching about the connection between cardiac arrest and hanging, but it wasn't as thorough. I guess his age would have something to do with that too. Judging by some of the documents that were released about his lifestyle, he was pretty hard on his heart.

[allegro]

I’ve looked at a LOT of death certificates. The medical examiner or doctor who signs the death certificate may list the underlying cause, e.g. cancer or AIDS or whatever, but most of them say that the ultimate CAUSE of death is either cardiac arrest or kidney failure.

Unless you’re brain dead, or you blow your head off.

If they find you after you’re already DEAD by hanging, they’ll list “hanging.”

If you’re found like Kurt Cobain, they list “bullet wound in head.”

If you asphyxiate yourself, you’ll likely pass out and then your heart will stop beating. There’s a name for that.

[Space Suicide]

And of course another shitbag gets away with his crimes without punishment, leaving any others involved that is connected also free of any potential punishment. I wouldn't even be surprised if it was orchestrated and actually a murder to cover up information leaking.

Then after a week this will be forgotten and people will be like goldfish with their memories.

This should've been SO much more.

[theimage13]

And of course another shitbag gets away with his crimes without punishment

I'm not sure what part of "dying in a prison cell" isn't punishment. Whether he did it himself or not, the ultimate outcome of this was a death sentence, albeit an unorthodox one.

There's still lots of info that's been recovered from his possessions. This is not over. It may quiet down again while investigations continue, but we haven't seen the end of this case.

[DF118]

Off topic question, but why does Epstein cock his head to the left in almost every photo that was taken of him? That isn't a mugshot? It's annoying. Like he's insecure about one side of his face.

I agree that he's got his comeuppance, to an extent. Dying alone, miserable, terrified, and a monster in the eyes of history. That's not much of a comfort to his victims though, and probably a relief to some of his accomplices.

Edit: Cardiac arrest is pretty common during a hanging, yep. Most of the time one slowly suffocates to death, leading to respiratory arrest, which leads to cardiac arrest.

[Space Suicide]

I'm not sure what part of "dying in a prison cell" isn't punishment. Whether he did it himself or not, the ultimate outcome of this was a death sentence, albeit an unorthodox one.

There's still lots of info that's been recovered from his possessions. This is not over. It may quiet down again while investigations continue, but we haven't seen the end of this case.

Death is too easy for men like this, I wish he would've lived, toiled, rotted and died like a shell of his rich self. Then his shitty entourage of perverts could've also potentially gotten taken down also.

[allegro]

I'm not sure what part of "dying in a prison cell" isn't punishment. Whether he did it himself or not, the ultimate outcome of this was a death sentence, albeit an unorthodox one.

There's still lots of info that's been recovered from his possessions. This is not over. It may quiet down again while investigations continue, but we haven't seen the end of this case.
A LOT more documents are to be unsealed from the Virginia Giuffre defamation suit against Maxwell. The last group of documents were unsealed Friday morning. Epstein killed himself Friday night.

Also, the victims are filing a motion demanding that the non-prosecution agreement that let off all of Epstein co-conspirators be voided.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/12/attorney-wants-florida-judge-to-toss-deal-for-alleged-epstein-cohorts/


Death is too easy for men like this, I wish he would've lived, toiled, rotted and died like a shell of his rich self. Then his shitty entourage of perverts could've also potentially gotten taken down also.
See above. His gang could be in trouble soon.

[allegro]

Guards at Epstein facility working mandatory overtime and 18-hour shifts due to pay freeze and hiring freeze under Trump Administration:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/politics/jeffrey-epstein-substitute-guard-overtime/index.html

[ickyvicky]

FBI searching his island:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-agents-swarm-jeffrey-epstein-s-private-caribbean-island-n1041596

[allegro]

Okay WHAT the fuck:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-corrections-officers-may-have-falsified-reports-saying-they-checked-on-financier-2019-08-13/

[botley]

Okay WHAT the fuck:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-corrections-officers-may-have-falsified-reports-saying-they-checked-on-financier-2019-08-13/
Someone (the Warden) panicked when they discovered they'd fucked up, and thought they could get away with not doing their job properly? And it looks like they did, as no one has been fired for this (yet).

[Swykk]

Interesting.

https://variety.com/2019/biz/news/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy-broken-bones-neck-1203303290/ (https://variety.com/2019/biz/news/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy-broken-bones-neck-1203303290/)

[Volband]

I love how people got onto the Hong-Kong train now. They just can't believe the sad state of that place and wish them all the best, meanwhile a VIP informant dies a cartoony death in their own country, but they are quick to forget and move on.

I'd be surprised if down the line we get anything substantial. FBI raids are nice and all, but if people can make sure someone can commit a cozy suicide, then tampering with evidence should be the easier part.

edit: broken neck can be a result of hanging, and overall, I don't think it is important at all whether he killed himself or if he was murdered (which I doubt). In the case of Epstein, both are the same category, except actually murdering him is a much more amateur way, than simply leaving him alone, knowing what he'll do.

[Swykk]

Yeah, I already said my concern is that everyone involved goes down whether this is suicide via negligence or covered up murder. Would I rather Epstein face his crimes and spend the rest of his life in prison? Yeah, but I also am okay with him being dead. I don’t want his death to be the reason his victims don’t get justice.

[Mantra]

https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1162093731492839424


Maxwell, 57, alleged madam to the multi-millionaire Epstein, was scarfing down a burger, fries and shake al fresco at an In-N-Out on Monday while reading, “The Book of Honor: The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives.”

Maxwell — who was sitting alone with a pet pooch — was surprised she was located and told an onlooker:

“Well, I guess this is the last time I’ll be eating here!”

[ickyvicky]

^^ Very odd. Wow.

[ickyvicky]

Wtf

https://nypost.com/2019/08/16/artist-who-painted-bill-clinton-in-dress-and-heels-had-no-idea-it-was-hanging-in-epsteins-mansion/

[Mantra]

Every single detail in this fucking shitshow of a story is so freakish and insane that I honestly don't understand how any of this is real. Why did life have to turn into some dark Coen Bros satire? It's like we're living in some fucked up alternate timeline that was never meant to happen.

[theimage13]

Official cause of death listed as suicide by hanging.

[theimage13]

Epstein created $578 million trust two days before suicide (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-19/epstein-created-trust-with-577-million-days-before-his-suicide)

[Demogorgon]

Epstein created $578 million trust two days before suicide (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-19/epstein-created-trust-with-577-million-days-before-his-suicide)

This sounds like a lot of bullshit to get away with hiding the money or avoiding paying the victims restitution. I hope it gets stalled until all the various investigations are done but, this is pouring oil on my cynical fire.

[theimage13]

This sounds like a lot of bullshit to get away with hiding the money or avoiding paying the victims restitution. I hope it gets stalled until all the various investigations are done but, this is pouring oil on my cynical fire.

Yup. For those who didn't read the article:


Jeffrey Epstein (https://www.bloomberg.com/billionaires/id/21133892) wrote a will just two days before his suicide, saying he had about $578 million in assets that he placed in a trust, which could complicate efforts by women who say he sexually abused them to collect damages.

All of his assets were transferred to the trust as of Aug. 8, two days before he died, assuring that details on how the proceeds are distributed may remain private.

[Volband]

Imagine being someone who actually still believes it was just a happy little accident that this could have happened.

[theimage13]

Imagine being someone who actually still believes it was just a happy little accident that this could have happened.

The more I think about it, the more I believe he died at his own hands.

As to whether there was intentional foul play vs gross incompetency leading up to him being taken off of suicide watch AND left unattended...that's a tough one. There are extraordinarily dumb people in the world and the prison staff were being worked ragged, so there's merit to the idea that they just royally fucked up. And there is no limit to what people with endless amounts of cash and influence can accomplish with a willing accomplice. Quite honestly, I don't know if I'll ever be convinced one way or the other.

[Sarah K]

There are extraordinarily dumb people in the world

See: most of the staff at that facility and other jails and prisons in the city.

[ickyvicky]

Gifted three 12 year old girls from France on his birthday

https://nypost.com/2019/08/19/jeffrey-epstein-was-sent-three-12-year-old-french-girls-as-birthday-gift/

[Haysey_Draws]

Gifted three 12 year old girls from France on his birthday

https://nypost.com/2019/08/19/jeffrey-epstein-was-sent-three-12-year-old-french-girls-as-birthday-gift/

FUCKING HELL :eek: At least point i'm starting the believe all millionaires are just vile sacks of shit...

[Volband]

The more I think about it, the more I believe he died at his own hands.

As to whether there was intentional foul play vs gross incompetency leading up to him being taken off of suicide watch AND left unattended...that's a tough one. There are extraordinarily dumb people in the world and the prison staff were being worked ragged, so there's merit to the idea that they just royally fucked up. And there is no limit to what people with endless amounts of cash and influence can accomplish with a willing accomplice. Quite honestly, I don't know if I'll ever be convinced one way or the other.
I never thought for a second that he was actually murdered. It is not unimagineable, but still, quite unlikely.

But imagine you and me are billionaires from the opposite side, aka we are rich or mega-rich depending on which party is currently leading the US. Imagine Epstein having some serious dirt on me, child-rape levels of dirt. Wouldn't you do everything in your power to let that man talk? You may bullshit your way out of e-mails and "locker room talks", but good luck with child rape. Of course you would! Unless... he has some dirt on you, or people on your side too. Suddenly it's not se tempting.

Okay, so we arrive to the point that maybe (maybe!!) no one influenced his suicide indirectly, because you and me both stayed put in our asses, and our masterplan was to kill this whole story off during the trial. But then how the fuck does the doctors let him off from suicide watch mere weeks after his first suicide attempt + conisdering he is the hottest VIP prisoner of the last decades, minus the 9/11 guys. Even if said medical examinator was lazy, or just trying to help out his buddies not to have 24-7 duty, a higher up also have to approve of it. And you would imagine some people who are not overloaded with work are actually overseeing this thing on a day-to-day basis.

I mean... how can this happen without someone wanting this to happen?

[theimage13]

I mean... how can this happen without someone wanting this to happen?

Refer back to gross incompetency and people working 18 hour shifts.

[ickyvicky]

https://www.businessinsider.com/epstein-took-calls-during-massages-from-trafficked-women-lawsuit-2019-8

[Swykk]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-jeffrey-epstein-cameras-idUSKCN1VI2LC

So...that’s something.

[Magnetic]

The coincidences and convenience of certain things make me think it wasn't suicide. I doubt we'll ever know the truth either way.

[ickyvicky]

Wasn't a suicide, duh

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-homicide-autopsy-michael-baden.html

[ickyvicky]

Tool's VIP Pass

https://twitter.com/TruthfulTreason/status/1185632153478008832

[thelastdisciple]

Tool's VIP Pass

https://twitter.com/TruthfulTreason/status/1185632153478008832
Is that a Hilary Clinton logo? lol jesus.

[Sarah K]

The person proclaiming that the injuries were consistent with homicide - please remember that person was hired by Epstein's family. Lol.

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/sirajahashmi/status/1190827744155832320

[Jinsai]

I never thought for a second that he was actually murdered. It is not unimagineable, but still, quite unlikely.

But imagine you and me are billionaires from the opposite side, aka we are rich or mega-rich depending on which party is currently leading the US. Imagine Epstein having some serious dirt on me, child-rape levels of dirt. Wouldn't you do everything in your power to let that man talk? You may bullshit your way out of e-mails and "locker room talks", but good luck with child rape. Of course you would! Unless... he has some dirt on you, or people on your side too. Suddenly it's not se tempting.

Okay, so we arrive to the point that maybe (maybe!!) no one influenced his suicide indirectly, because you and me both stayed put in our asses, and our masterplan was to kill this whole story off during the trial. But then how the fuck does the doctors let him off from suicide watch mere weeks after his first suicide attempt + conisdering he is the hottest VIP prisoner of the last decades, minus the 9/11 guys. Even if said medical examinator was lazy, or just trying to help out his buddies not to have 24-7 duty, a higher up also have to approve of it. And you would imagine some people who are not overloaded with work are actually overseeing this thing on a day-to-day basis.

I mean... how can this happen without someone wanting this to happen?

In this case, someone probably took someone who worked in a low level position out to lunch, and offered them a few hundred thousand dollars to do something insane.

I was working a retail job once, and I had someone offer me a suitcase full of money if I'd lift some blank Ticketmaster tickets that could be altered and resold. I didn't do it. I might have been being tested by someone or something... but if you don't think this sort of thing happens at least on a "hey, don't make a dumb decision, take the money" kind of level, you're deluded

[bobbie solo]

some of the Epstein Didn't Kill Himself memes are fantastic. I feel somewhat uneasy bc alot of this seems to be coming from mouth breathing right wing gun lover/MMA crossfit dudes, but overall the cross section of people that don't by this horseshit about how he died is so large that i shouldn't really care.

[ryanmcfly]

I wish I could mute the Epstein memes tbh. I know I believe he didn't kill himself, but I'm also a little cynical in the fact that think nothing will come out of this anyways.

[theimage13]

some of the Epstein Didn't Kill Himself memes are fantastic. I feel somewhat uneasy bc alot of this seems to be coming from mouth breathing right wing gun lover/MMA crossfit dudes, but overall the cross section of people that don't by this horseshit about how he died is so large that i shouldn't really care.


I'm pissed off that this appears to have been pulled from Reddit (at least, the posting that I had originally seen). But someone had made those god-awful "basic white girl pinterest word board" things and had three lined up in a row: Live, Laugh, and Epstein Didn't Kill Himself.

I hate those boards so much that I just burst out laughing when I saw that. Alas, the photo appears to have disappeared :(

[ryanmcfly]

*his blunt "what if all of the Epstein didn't kill himself memes are being created and pushed on social media to conservatives to distract them from the impeachment inquiry?"

For real, this is a serious thought I had yesterday. Most of the people that share these memes are right wingers anyways. It's definitely plausible

[theimage13]

*his blunt "what if all of the Epstein didn't kill himself memes are being created and pushed on social media to conservatives to distract them from the impeachment inquiry?"

For real, this is a serious thought I had yesterday. Most of the people that share these memes are right wingers anyways. It's definitely plausible

I don't think conservatives need that though. They don't believe facts when presented with them. Fuck, look at Lindsey Graham. He went from "there's no evidence, it didn't happen" to "oh, the evidence was released? I'm not going to read it." Distraction is unnecessary when your mind has already been made up.

[ickyvicky]

Jail Guards were offered a plea deal
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/15/epstein-jail-guards-had-been-offered-plea-deal-ap-sources-say.html

[ickyvicky]

Two guards (finally) charged with conspiracy and filing false records
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/us/jeffrey-epstein-guard-charge/index.html

[Jinsai]

I heard on the radio that there’s security footage clarifying he was alone in his cell... which is a weird way to frame it. Are they suggesting they have video of him committing suicide?

[ryanmcfly]

I heard on the radio that there’s security footage clarifying he was alone in his cell... which is a weird way to frame it. Are they suggesting they have video of him committing suicide?

The report I saw said that the DOJ had video of no one going in or out of his cell in the time frame that he died.

[theimage13]

This topic is why I haven't lost ALL faith in Reddit.

One of the highest rated comments in a recent thread is one where article after article is posted that lays this out as being clearly a conspiracy / coverup that could not possibly have any rational explanations. At casual glance, it looks convincing.

The second highest rated comment, though, is a piece-by-piece dismantling of that, where the user actually *read* the articles and said "your summary is bullshit", picking it apart carefully and politely. Point being: someone used sources to make their point, and someone else did their own research instead of taking that word at face value and questioned their conclusions, and received equal attention. It struck me as a genuine exchange of ideas in a thoughtful and respectful manner instead of two parties just yelling at each other while making baseless accusations.

[ickyvicky]

Feds find smuggled gun in prison where Epstein was

https://nypost.com/2020/03/05/feds-find-smuggled-gun-in-manhattan-prison-where-jeffrey-epstein-died/

[ickyvicky]

"US Demands Prince Andrew Spill Beans on Epstein Ties"

https://nypost.com/2020/06/07/us-demands-prince-andrew-spill-beans-on-epstein-ties-report-says/

Has anyone watched the Netflix Special yet? Worth watching?

[allegro]

"US Demands Prince Andrew Spill Beans on Epstein Ties"

https://nypost.com/2020/06/07/us-demands-prince-andrew-spill-beans-on-epstein-ties-report-says/

Has anyone watched the Netflix Special yet? Worth watching?

Some people I follow on Twitter have expressed that it's so hard to watch, they had to stop watching, so I'm afraid to watch it.

[ickyvicky]

Jeffrey's girlfriend got arrested. Finally!

[onthewall2983]

"US Demands Prince Andrew Spill Beans on Epstein Ties"

https://nypost.com/2020/06/07/us-demands-prince-andrew-spill-beans-on-epstein-ties-report-says/

Has anyone watched the Netflix Special yet? Worth watching?

Still betting the Royals had a hand in the 'suicide'

[Jinsai]

well, if it IS true that Epstein was murdered... if I were she, I'd be singing like a bird as fast as possible.

[Space Suicide]

well, if it IS true that Epstein was murdered... if I were she, I'd be singing like a bird as fast as possible.

I wonder how long it'll take until she's "committed suicide" or exonerated for crimes and let go. I highly doubt real justice will be served with this case.

[allegate]

well, if it IS true that Epstein was murdered... if I were she, I'd be singing like a bird as fast as possible.

hell, that may be why she was hiding: "if they can't keep him safe I don't want to be anywhere near them"

[allegate]

https://i.imgur.com/lnTrQT4.jpg

[allegro]

hell, that may be why she was hiding: "if they can't keep him safe I don't want to be anywhere near them"

Also, she has in her possession TONS of tapes which are illegal. Her possessing these tapes is, in itself, a Federal crime. She is a sick twisted disgusting criminal, who wouldn’t give them up; just like her sick dead boyfriend Jeff Epstein.

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1283032093170323458


https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1283091571211214853

Wow.

[NotoriousTIMP]

Wtf? A whole year from now?

[allegro]

Wtf? A whole year from now?

That's normal.

They have to go through a whole process of "discovery" before that, and a whole timetable is set by the judge ahead of time to keep people on schedule for discovery before trial, for stuff like interrogatories and depositions, and any further investigation that comes from THAT can take a LONG time. I used to have to reschedule depositions sometimes TEN times due to scheduling problems. And with Covid, omg, I can't even imagine. There is a LOT of evidence in this case. VOLUMES of it.

A pre-trial date is usually scheduled, too, to keep things on track. All of this stuff is per Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.

https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1283089307704664065?s=20

https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1283090400513871872?s=20

[WorzelG]

That’s a lot of time for any ‘suicides’. Can you put someone on suicide watch for a whiole year?

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/jkbjournalist/status/1283097522014171138

can't find the right image to use on this one. What the actual fuck.

[allegro]

Right now, she’s innocent until proven guilty. That’s our American system.

I think she should live somewhere safe, to keep her alive and from harm until her trial. She knows too much.

She can suffer plenty after she is found guilty by a jury of her peers and sentenced. Until then, we follow laws and our Constitution.

Her ATTORNEYS requested this, not her. Likely due to Covid plus what happened to Epstein.

She’s a massive flight risk. She must have an ankle bracelet with GPS and 24-hour security in a witness protection program.

[allegate]

I wish I could find a non-Q tweet to post but she's got a submarine license and that's just more weirdness.

[allegate]

“Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.

They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.

So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.”just came to mind for some reason. :)

[allegro]

You get embroiled in something this big, you don't get to pick.

Actually, yes you do. You do all the time in this country. Every single day. And this case or accused will be no different.

My only point was that staffing was bad enough when Epstein was being “closely guarded.” Now there’s a pandemic. Nobody can trust Bill Barr’s prison system with him at the helm. I don’t care if she lives in a fucking fur-lined spa. She’d better be going to trial, for those victims. The victims will get their day in court; something they were denied with Epstein. Twice. This isn’t about you, me, or capitalism; it’s about them. They just want justice, however they get there.


move right along to plea arrangements?
She just pleaded not guilty. She’s not going to plead out, the victims won’t agree to that. She was already a part of the original Epstein plea agreement, which was her defense in ever being arrested; except she has all those tapes, which is illegal and violates the Epstein plea agreement.

https://twitter.com/glennkirschner2/status/1283371288917168133?s=21

[ltrandazzo]

Gonna leave this here because it's a conspiracy and the sleuths on Twitter have been tying this thread into the Epstein/Maxwell thread.

1285040797532909568

[cdm]

You've gone to the trouble to disguise yourself as a delivery guy so, at the very least, you know whether or not your target is home...IMO this looks like a hit on the husband defense lawyer and not the judge.

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/mmpadellan/status/1285231785715159040

[ickyvicky]

I hope they catch the son of a bitch.

[cdm]

I hope they catch the son of a bitch.

Person of interest found dead by SIGW in NY.

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1285249452626923521

[ickyvicky]

Shit.

[cdm]

This is a good [and short] thread: 1285270817425682432

[cdm]

1285268146354622469

I would go with "men's rights terrorist" but what do i know? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[allegro]

See the Trump thread. Because wtf (https://abovethelaw.com/2016/08/lawyer-sues-basically-all-mainstream-media-for-rico-violations-for-how-they-report-on-donald-trump/).

No, seriously, WTF (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3034119/16cv6624-1-Complaint.pdf).

[Swykk]

Here. We. Go?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8553717/Epstein-flood-gates-open-judge-rules-explosive-Ghislaine-Maxwell-docs-unsealed.html

[allegate]

"The world is shocked as a warehouse catches fire and burns all of the documentation on the Epstein case, even the digital off-site backups. One person is quoted as saying "I've never seen a fire travel along CAT6 cable before.""

[Erneuert]

"The world is shocked as a warehouse catches fire and burns all of the documentation on the Epstein case, even the digital off-site backups. One person is quoted as saying "I've never seen a fire travel along CAT6 cable before.""

Surely they backed up the backups?

[NotoriousTIMP]

sweet jebus, the flood gates are opening (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mediaite.com/news/twitter-blows-up-over-alan-dershowitz-being-named-in-ghislaine-maxwell-docs-hope-hes-on-suicide-watch/amp) why is there little to no coverage on this?

[Erneuert]

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/08/prince-andrew-puppet-jeffrey-epstein-virginia-giuffre-assault-allegations

Prince Andrew Allegedly Used a Puppet of Himself to Grope Victims at Jeffrey Epstein’s Home


My reaction after just seeing this headline:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBjhAqXg8MY (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBjhAqXg8MY)

[ickyvicky]

"Court says Ghislaine Maxwell's Deposition Can't Remain Secret"

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/20/925739704/jeffrey-epstein-update-court-says-ghislaine-maxwells-deposition-can-t-remain-sec

[ickyvicky]

Deposition came out this morning! And now we wait...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ghislaine-maxwell-deposition-discussing-her-sex-life-and-jeffrey-epstein-ordered-released-thursday-at-9-am

[onthewall2983]

Turns out it doesn't reveal much