Persecution of Religions [Archive]

Patrick_Nicholas

05-01-2019, 07:38 PM

Please tell me you're not one of those people who think not saying "Merry Christmas" at stores is an act of persecution. I spent my four high school years putting up with evangelicals who think Christianity is supposed to be the official religion of the United States. It's the rabid evangelicals that give Christianity a bad name, similar to how Al-Quaeda and ISIS give Islam a bad name. And I mean the evangelicals that use the Bible to justify their hate, think allowing gay people to have rights promotes all things "morally unwholesome", think treating all Americans as equal is literally communism, etc. All while sticking up for a madman like President Trump, no less, because he tells them what they want to hear. American Christians actually have it easy compared to, say, parts of the Middle East, where refusing to subscribe to the official religion is considered worthy of the death penalty. Not to mention that in places like North Korea, religion may be considered a bit of an inconvenience to leaders who want to be worshipped like gods. And contrary to what Fox News wants you to believe, not all attacks on churches are motivated by religion (or lack thereof); the 2015 church shooting in South Carolina, for example, was racially motivated. And I think antisemitism in general has more to do with race than with religion.

By the way, a quick Google search tells me that nearly half of Americans are Protestant. If you count Catholicism as a version of Christianity, then the majority of Americans are Christian! The "persecution" comes from the Constitution allowing people to freely subscribe to other religions, or no religion at all. The Christian politicians who are not ultra-right evangelicals are generally quiet about their religious views because they don't think they should be playing favorites with religions (Obama and Hillary are both Christians, by the way). Much of what is perceived as "persecution" in America comes mainly from some hardcore evangelicals taking offense to a vocal minority disagreeing with them, while religion is "demonized" because of people throughout history using it to justify violence and hate.

eachpassingphase

05-01-2019, 09:38 PM

So I am a Christian and I work in ministry. Here are a few thoughts I have on the idea of religious persecution because I see this get brought up a lot. I can't really speak on the experiences of other faiths, but I can talk as a Christian in the Bible Belt where a LOT of people wax on about being persecuted for Jesus.

1. A lot of the attacks on houses of worship in the US are not directed so much at their faith as they are their race/nationality/ethnicity. For instance, a large portion of the Christian churches who have been victimized by bombings, arson and shootings are specifically black churches. There's a long history of brutal violence directed at black churches by white nationalist groups and individuals. Jewish people have been persecuted for years by the same groups. Muslims on the other hand, get of seem to get it at both ends, both from a general fearmongering about what the majority Muslims actually practice as well as a general distrust of a religion mostly made up of POC. Attacking a mosque, church or synagogue is more about attacking a gathering where they can instill the most terror in people who aren't white or protestant. Obviously that's not true in 100% of the cases, but in a large majority of times it is. It's a mistake to claim otherwise, because it ignores the real problem which is not that society isn't tolerant enough of religion, but that society still mostly doesn't tolerate people who aren't white protestants.

2. I don't really think that American Christians can claim in good faith that they are routinely persecuted for their beliefs. We are, at least culturally, the majority. Now, I would argue that a good number of people who claim to be Christians in the US don't give a crap about the religion at all, but rather they admire the trappings of cultural Christendom and feel a kinship with it because it is so heavily culturally enforced as the norm. Nonetheless it is the majority influence on the culture as far as religion is concerned in the US and has been for a long time. My religion is literally my job, which means that I get a lot of questions and debates from others, but I can honestly say that nobody has tried to harm me or threaten me for my faith. I know that the local Muslim leaders in my city have had a VERY different experience than I have.

3. While persecution of Christians does happen in some areas of the world, keep in mind that in countries where Christian practices are heavily monitored, regulated or even persecuted by the government or individuals that often times they are not the only faith getting that treatment. Christians like to use China as an example of modern-day persecution, but the problem is that Christianity is not the only religion that is heavily regulated in China. So it's a terrible example of modern-day persecution that is specific to Christians.

4. Disagreement and enforcing the rights of others to the disagreement of religious folks is not persecution. Christianity survived Nero, it can handle Twitter debates with other religions & baking cakes for gay couples. Seriously, this idea that your right to practice your faith is being trampled because somebody disagrees with you or forces you to acknowledge the rights and humanity of somebody else is just...well...a lie.

5. Christians don't really have any room to talk about persecution, frankly. I'm not sure I need to explain the history of that.

So yeah, just some things to consider.

elevenism

05-01-2019, 09:42 PM

I gotta say, I've been a little worried about this, too.
And I'm not talking about the "merry christmas" bullshit. I identify as christian, but, I'm DAMN sure not a right wing evangelical. The "war on christmas" bullshit is laughable, especially when you get down to the fact that Christmas draws HEAVILY from pagan festivals like Sol Invictus. And, I certainly don't feel "persecuted" by things like people saying " happy holidays, " in an attempt to be more inclusive. I think it's a GOOD thing.

I'm talking about the serious shit.
Damn near 900 churches have been vandalized in France in the past couple of years.
And then, of course, the violence: the mosque shooting, the synagogue shootings, the church bombings: this shit terrifies me. It's like there's been some sort of quickening.

I'm afraid that we're going to see this escalate. I think we'll see attacks on mosques as revenge for the recent church bombings, and, then, more attacks on churches and mosques, creating a rapidly intensifying cycle of violence.

I think we're gonna hit a point where places of worship need armed guards. I fucking HATE it that people are being fucking KILLED at their places of worship.
And, I think this is just the beginning.

Normal, tolerant folk are going to die, in increasing numbers, at the hands of extremists and fringe secterians.

Also, we have idiotic "christians" who aren't bothered by Muslims being killed - I've run into a few of those.

One thing that really gets me is that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism, all come from the same place. They're all abrahamic monotheism.

M1ke

05-01-2019, 11:10 PM

I think that part of the problem is that it's become much more socially acceptable to "other" someone or a group.

Part of that comes from it being easy to find those who will agree your view of some group as the "other" to start treating poorly, start to demonize and then in extreme cases act violently towards. "Other"ing a particular group can be used to justify attacks or other poor treatment.

Religion has always been something that has frequently lead to "other"ing, sometimes by the members of the religion and sometimes by those outside of it. I don't think it's because we're turning against religion more, so much as we're just "other"ing different groups and religion is an easy way to identify a group of "others".

I think that the change is being caused less by people turning against religion, and more by our increased societal tendency towards "other"ing different groups to find someone to fight against. Somehow the internet has reduced peoples tolerance for differences and increased their appetite for finding a group to blame for their problems.

What's the difference between a buddhist and a non-buddhist? The non-buddhist thinks there's a difference.

I think it's important to remember that we're all human and we all have more in common than we have differences. We're all capable of "other"ing a group. We'd all like to be able to explain the problems of the world in simple terms. We're all capable of seeing a different group as less than our group, but in reality we are all humans, and our problems aren't caused by some "other", they're caused by people who are more like us than they are different from us.

Inside all of us, if we allow ourselves to see a different group as "other" than us, it can lead to some horrible extreme actions. If we try to remember that the person who we're "other"ing is just another human being experiencing the world in a different way, it can help us feel more kindly towards them.

BRoswell

05-02-2019, 12:49 AM

It's all religious absurdism in my opinion. To me, faith and spirituality are private things that you keep between yourself and your gods or whatever you feel connected to. The mistake people made with faith was letting charlatans take it over and turn it into a business. And yes, religion is a business. They all have the same pitches. "Your life sucks. You don't have it. You need it. Now you've got it. Uh oh. Those people don't have it/are using a faulty religion. Better show them the light!" Every one of these terrorists (Christian, Muslim, etc.) have been indoctrinated to believe that they have the god given right to use force against those who believe differently instead of letting people be. It became about territory and conquest and power, not about connection and faith and understanding. Faith and spirituality CAN be beautiful things, but organized religion is ugly and vile no matter who it is. We are better off without it. The sooner we realize that we don't need religions and places of worship to feel connected to our gods (whoever and whatever they may be), the sooner the bloodshed and hatred stops.

elevenism

05-03-2019, 07:54 PM

Good points, BRoswell

allegro

05-03-2019, 10:37 PM

Except the people who are burning black churches or shooting up Jews in Synagogues aren’t doing it in the name of Christianity; we don’t even know if the shooters are Christians. We only know that they are White Nationalists and the shootings are hate crimes. As mentioned above, the shootings and bombings aren’t about religion; they’re about hating the “tribe” or the “others” inside; the “captives” inside are like shooting fish in a barrel - easy targets.

In the case of the bombing of Christians in Sri Lanka, that is thought to be in retribution for the Mosque shooting in New Zealand (a White Nationalist hate crime). Hate begets hate.

According to the FBI, the biggest rising threat to national security in the United States is rising White Nationalism and hate crimes (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/hate-crimes-rose-17-percent-last-year-according-to-new-fbi-data/2018/11/13/e0dcf13e-e754-11e8-b8dc-66cca409c180_story.html); against blacks, gays, Jews, Muslims, etc. Anything that the White Nationalists consider a threat. They’re being radicalized online, the hate is spreading like a cancer.

More than half of hate crimes, about 3 out of every 5, targeted a person’s race or ethnicity, while about 1 out of 5 targeted their religion. Of the more than 7,000 incidents reported last year, 2,013 targeted black Americans, while 938 targeted Jewish Americans. Incidents targeting people for their sexual orientation accounted for 1,130 hate crimes, according to the FBI.

To White Nationalists, Jews are both an ethnicity AND a religion (that they want to get rid of).

This happened on April 27th:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MX8IQ-YffxM

Yet, a lot of the right thinks this is all Fake News.

The situation in France is due to France being a highly secular country, which is difficult for a country like the U.S. to grok. France has radical secularism.

See this, which explains: https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

But they’re not KILLING anyone. Spreading poop on a Catholic Church is a LOT different than shooting and killing a bunch of people in a Synagogue.

“War on Christmas” is code speak for “Hate Jews” (for saying Happy Holidays).

Cookster426

05-06-2019, 11:52 AM

This topic makes me want to watch 'God Told Me To'. Larry Cohen's psychological horror movie about how people are killing each other because God told them to. It's a surreal take on religious extremism and cultism.

ricardo

05-06-2019, 02:15 PM

The "Easter worshipper" thing was disturbing. The American left-wing is just disgusting. That's why disgusting people like Donald Trump get elected.

allegro

05-06-2019, 02:42 PM

White Supremacy is being fueled by Trump, but it’s not new (it’s really old) and it was certainly not “created” by anything except extreme conservative nationalism. It’s called “Unite the Right” against Jews, blacks, gays, Muslims, Catholics, etc.

This will help you understand the KKK in the United States. (https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2018/12/08/671999530/what-the-ebbs-and-flows-of-the-kkk-can-tell-us-about-white-supremacy-today)

The 20th to 21st century Klan actually formed after the Civil War, during the Reconstruction period. Then it was entirely contained within the South, mostly in the rural South. It [was] all men. There were violent attacks on people who were engaged, or [wanted] to be engaged, in the Reconstruction state, [including] freed blacks, southern reconstructionists, politicians and northerners who move to the South. That collapses for a variety of reasons in the 1870s.

Then, the Klan is reborn in the teens, but becomes really big in the early 1920s. And that is the second Klan. That is probably the biggest organized outburst of white supremacy in American history, encompassing millions of members or more. ... And that's not in the South, [it's] primarily in the North. It's not marginal. It runs people for office. It has a middle class base. They have an electoral campaign. They are very active in the communities. And they have women's Klans, who are very active and very effective in some of the communities. That dissolves into mostly scandals around the late '20s.

Then there's some fascist activity around the wars — pro-German, some Nazi activity in the United States — not sizable, but obviously extremely troubling.

The Klan and white supremacy reemerge in a bigger and more organized way around the desegregation and civil rights movement — again, mostly in the South, and back to that Southern model: vicious, violent, defensive, Jim Crow and white rights in the South.

And then it kind of ebbs. After a while, it kind of comes back again in the late '80s and the early 21st Century as another era. And then there's kind of a network of white supremacism that encompasses the Klan, which is more peripheral by this time. Also Neo-Nazi influence is coming as white power skinheads, racist music, and also neo-Nazi groups. The Klans tend to be super nationalist, but these neo-Nazi groups have a big international agenda.

Then the last wave is where we are now, which is the Internet appears. The movement has been in every other era as movement of people in physical space like in meetings, rallies, protests and demonstrations and so forth. It becomes primarily a virtual world, and as you can see, has its own consequences — many consequences. It's much harder to track. And then there are these blurred lines between all these various groups that get jumbled together as the alt-right and people who come from the more traditional neo-Nazi world. We're in a very different world now.

In the 1920s, synagogues were targeted by the KKK. Can you run through other examples of violence like this?

People will say the '20s Klan was not as violent as other Klans. But that's really because its violence took a different form. So there, the threat that the Klan manufactured was the threat of being swapped — all the positions of society being taken by the others — so immigrants, Catholics, Jews and so forth. So the violence was things like, for example, I studied deeply the state of Indiana where the Klan was very strong — pushing Catholics school teachers out of their jobs in public schools and getting them fired, running Jewish merchants out of town, creating boycott campaigns, whispering campaigns about somebody's business that would cause it to collapse. So it's a different kind of violence but it's really targeted as expelling from the communities those who are different than the white, native-born Protestants who were the members of the Klan. So it takes different forms in different times. It's not always the violence that we think about now, like shootings.

When did we start seeing the violence that we see today?

Well, the violence that we see today is not that dissimilar from the violence of the Klan in the '50s and '60s, where there was, kind of, the violence of terrorism. So there's two kinds of violence in white supremacy. There's the "go out and beat up people on the street" violence — that's kind of the skinhead violence. And then there's the sort of strategic violence. You know, the violence that's really meant to send a message to a big audience, so that the message is dispersed and the victims are way beyond the people who are actually injured.

You see that in the '50s, '60s in the South, and you see it now.

Adherents of white nationalist groups (https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist) believe that white identity should be the organizing principle of the countries that make up Western civilization. White nationalists advocate for policies to reverse changing demographics and the loss of an absolute, white majority. Ending non-white immigration, both legal and illegal, is an urgent priority — frequently elevated over other racist projects, such as ending multiculturalism and miscegenation — for white nationalists seeking to preserve white, racial hegemony.

White nationalists seek to return to an America that predates the implementation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. Both landmark pieces of legislation are cited as the harbingers of white dispossession and so-called “white genocide” — the idea that whites in the United States are being systematically replaced and destroyed.

In addition to their obsession with declining white birth rates, these themes comprise some of the most powerful propaganda that animates and drives the white nationalist movement. Adherents frequently cite Pat Buchanan’s 2001 book, The Death of the West, which argues that these declining white birth rates and an “immigrant invasion” will transform the United States into a third world nation by 2050, as the text responsible for their awakening, or “red pill.”

White nationalists also frequently cite American Renaissance, a pseudo-academic organization dedicated to spreading the myth of black criminality, scientific racism and eugenic theories. Its annual conference, a multi-day symposium with a suit-and-tie dress code, is a typical early stop for new white nationalists.

Although it isn’t ubiquitous, there is a current of antisemitism in the modern day white nationalist movement. Jews are common scapegoats for the perceived cultural and political grievances of white nationalists. White nationalist and antisemitic literature and conferences also have frequent author and speaker overlap. Kevin MacDonald, the author of The Culture of Critique — a trilogy of books alleging a Jewish control of culture and politics with evolutionary psychology — is a frequent guest in white nationalist media and at events. His writing is frequently cited as what introduces white nationalists to the idea of a Jewish conspiracy

bobbie solo

05-06-2019, 02:54 PM

or, like, don't feed the troll.

Demogorgon

05-06-2019, 04:32 PM

or, like, don't feed the troll.

The dude made one post. ONE POST that has led to a moderate amount of mostly polite discussion. And then there's you, contributing nothing. Who's really the troll here?

Jaguar

05-06-2019, 08:35 PM

When fake ass Christians decided to be intolerant and ignorant; trying to force “religious freedom” (ONLY for themselves) upon the rest of us that want progress and better lives.
Were those "fake ass Christians" who got bombed in Sri Lanka? Were those "fake ass Christians" who had their historic churches destroyed by ISIS, and who died, or were forcibly converted, forced to marry Muslim men, or forced into exile? Were those hundred of girls "fake as Christians" who were kidnapped by the Boko Haram, beaten, forced to convert, and married to Muslim men? Were those "fake ass Christians" who had their churches burned down in Louisiana? Are those "fake ass Christians" who have their churches vandalized (including set on fire) at the rate of three per day in France?

Jaguar

05-06-2019, 08:40 PM

elevenism

05-06-2019, 08:41 PM

I feel you, @Cat Mom (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) .

But, there is ONE detail of the Christchurch shootings that has a Christians vs Muslims vibe to it, and that's the part where dude had the dates and such, of historical battles between Christians and Muslims, written on his guns.

So, yeah, I think it IS in the name of Jesus, but, white nationalist jesus.

And, I would draw a parallel between militant racist Christian groups like Christian Identity, and Jihadist groups.

The motivation may be slightly different, but, they're both violent fringe movements with ties to religions.

"Violence begets violence:" that's what stands out to me the most, in what you said.

And, that's my fear: I think that there will be bloody response to the Easter bombings, and then a violent response to THAT response, and it could escalate, and go on and on.

Edit: sorry. "Hate begets hate." I read it as " violence begets violence, " for some reason.

Jaguar

05-06-2019, 08:46 PM

I think we're gonna hit a point where places of worship need armed guards. I fucking HATE it that people are being fucking KILLED at their places of worship.
My synagogue is currently discussing armed security. We hate that we have to do it. Firstly because it is extreme. And secondly because we are not made of money and it will definitely mean canceling some of our other programs. But do we have another choice?

Jaguar

05-06-2019, 08:49 PM

It's all religious absurdism in my opinion. To me, faith and spirituality are private things that you keep between yourself and your gods or whatever you feel connected to.
Which is exactly the sort of anti-religious bigotry we've come to expect from too many non-religious. You seek to amputate our religious beings, so that we don't actually live it in our day to day lives.

Jaguar

05-06-2019, 08:53 PM

Except the people who are burning black churches or shooting up Jews in Synagogues aren’t doing it in the name of Christianity
Actually, the shooter at the Chabad synagogue in Poway very much did it in the name of Christianity. His manifesto spoke in great detail about how his Christian faith had shaped his racist views. Indeed, the one thing his pastor was most disturbed about, was how fully he seemed to grasp the Reform Christian theology of salvation -- he seemed to be as genuine a Christian as you can get (just a heretical, sinful one).

elevenism

05-06-2019, 08:54 PM

As bleak as what @BRoswell (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=219) said is, a lot of it is true.

I would say that organized religion, for all the good effects it can have, is also fucking DANGEROUS, because of a few people.

There's a verse in the old testament that says something to the effect of "if you find a town where a different God is worshipped, then, you must kill everyone there, and kill all their animals, and burn the town."

Here's another thing. The Christians of TODAY aren't usually killing people, @Jaguar (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=7194) , but think of the crusades and the inquisition. ANd, I think part of the reasons that Muslims ARE, is because Islam is a much newer religion. I think that, in another 500 years, there won't be hardly any Muslims who take the violent shit in the Koran, (like that verse in the bible,) so literally. Christianity and Judaism have had time to mellow. Islam hasn't had nearly as much time.
Jaguar , we always have at least one person armed at my church. We rotate who it is: the sheriff, a cop, one dude with a concealed carry permit. Could you guys do it like that?

Jinsai

05-06-2019, 09:06 PM

Ugh... people do bad stuff to people, and they justify it with what they have at hand.

elevenism

05-06-2019, 09:15 PM

Ugh... people do bad stuff to people, and they justify it with what they have at hand.
Yeah...this is true, to a degree. Perhaps religious extremists would have killed people for some other reason.

But, I truly believe that some of these people WOULDN'T commit violent acts, if it weren't for religion.

Jinsai

05-06-2019, 09:57 PM

Yeah...this is true, to a degree. Perhaps religious extremists would have killed people for some other reason.

But, I truly believe that some of these people WOULDN'T commit violent acts, if it weren't for religion.

The biggest mistake, generally, when dealing with senseless acts, is to accept seeing it pinned on something unrelated but equally senseless, like supernatural beliefs. It's a red herring. It's an easy trick. At this point, most of the time, religion's just coded language. Most of the time, I feel like when people are talking about their deeply held convictions, it's blatant doublespeak.

allegro

05-06-2019, 10:03 PM

Actually, the shooter at the Chabad synagogue in Poway very much did it in the name of Christianity. His manifesto spoke in great detail about how his Christian faith had shaped his racist views. Indeed, the one thing his pastor was most disturbed about, was how fully he seemed to grasp the Reform Christian theology of salvation -- he seemed to be as genuine a Christian as you can get (just a heretical, sinful one).

Sorry, I wasn’t familiar with the Poway shooter. (I was HIGHLY impressed with the Rabbi in that situation, though, wow, very inspiring.). Yes, this shooter is disturbing. There appears to be controversy as to anti-Semitism in evangelicalism:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/05/01/alleged-synagogue-shooter-was-churchgoer-who-articulated-christian-theology-prompting-tough-questions-evangelical-pastors/

It’s true that many Christians blame all Jews for killing Jesus (discounting the fact that Jesus was a Jew). All this “pro Israel” crap from the right isn’t because they care about Jews; it’s only because the Bible tells them to protect Jews in Israel (where Jesus was born) so Jesus will come back.

But these White Nationalists are using the Bible to explain hatred they already have.

They are getting radicalized by 8chan. (https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/04/california-synagogue-shooting-worse-you-thought/588352/)

People who shoot up or bomb innocent people due to their religion, race or ethnicity are TERRORISTS.

elevenism

05-06-2019, 10:15 PM

The biggest mistake, generally, when dealing with senseless acts, is to accept seeing it pinned on something unrelated but equally senseless, like supernatural beliefs. It's a red herring. It's an easy trick. At this point, most of the time, religion's just coded language. Most of the time, I feel like when people are talking about their deeply held convictions, it's blatant doublespeak.
AH.
Dude, yes.
This elaboration makes me totally see what you mean.

allegro

05-06-2019, 10:19 PM

My synagogue is currently discussing armed security. We hate that we have to do it. Firstly because it is extreme. And secondly because we are not made of money and it will definitely mean canceling some of our other programs. But do we have another choice?

Up until fairly recently, we worked out at the gym at the JCC up the street (we quit because we built a gym in the basement LOL). In Chicago, there were several bomb threats to the JCC’s here last year. We all got emails, but the community refused to let it stop them. There’s no way to totally prevent bombs. I just can’t understand all of this awful violence.

BRoswell

05-06-2019, 10:19 PM

Which is exactly the sort of anti-religious bigotry we've come to expect from too many non-religious. You seek to amputate our religious beings, so that we don't actually live it in our day to day lives.

It's bigoted to say that faith should be something that is kept private and special instead of being thrown around like a great deal on a used car? I reject that completely, and I don't care who that offends. Too many people want to feel like they're part of a club, not in touch with their gods. That's what religion is. (Religion, not faith. Read my words carefully.) It's a series of clubs designed to make humans feel good about themselves. It's all about narcissism, not about a higher power, and certainly not about being in touch with that higher power. That's why all these religions have figureheads. Pastors, rabbis, clerics. It's all about giving humans something to focus on, because the concept of a higher power is something that's beyond our basic comprehension. We've watered down the concept of gods and the vast powers of our universe so that it's easily digestible and available in your local bookstore. People can follow whatever religion they want, but religions are not special to me, and I'm not going to treat them as such. I am respectful to a point, but only to a point. I do not believe that religion should govern our lives, or that we should live in fear of them.

Like I said, faith and belief can be beautiful things, but they've been co-opted by organizations that wish to twist them into weapons, which is an utterly tragic (and very human) thing to do. My belief is that religion will either destroy us, or we will somehow move past it and arrive somewhere more enlightened. The former seems more likely, but I would like to hold out hope for the latter, no matter how foolish it may be.

Swykk

05-07-2019, 05:34 AM

I wish I hadn’t temporarily taken this dude off ignore to read his responses because I’ll never get that time back and sustained damage to my eyes from rolling them so hard.

The people with more more patience than me already broke it down for you—terrorists will always try to justify their actions. 8chan and the trash Trump administration are riling up morons.

But keep doing your tired process:

01 Whataboutism

02 Calling those of us that don’t give a fuck about what religion you practice bigots because we don’t want your religion to be our rules nor do we want to hear about it 24/7; especially this false narrative about Christians being oppressed in the US.

03 Blather, Bitch, And Repeat

SM Rollinger

05-07-2019, 09:42 AM

Jaguar who are you?

allegro

05-07-2019, 12:37 PM

02 Calling those of us that don’t give a fuck about what religion you practice bigots because we don’t want your religion to be our rules nor do we want to hear about it 24/7; especially this false narrative about Christians being oppressed in the US.

But be careful about this, see. This is how these terrorists felt, then they took it to a REALLY extreme level.

I believe that is what Jaguar is trying to say. And I agree. (He’s a Jew and I was raised Catholic, two of the groups that have been targeted by the KKK.)

I don’t think some of you have read the whole thread.

Not giving a fuck about what religion you practice is fine. That’s neutral. That’s allowing Jews to worship and live in peace, without fear of being shot in a Synagogue; which is what Jaguar said.

Let’s read this exchange with intelligence and without anger or hostility:

(1) It's all religious absurdism in my opinion. To me, faith and spirituality are private things that you keep between yourself and your gods or whatever you feel connected to.

(2) Which is exactly the sort of anti-religious bigotry we've come to expect from too many non-religious. You seek to amputate our religious beings, so that we don't actually live it in our day to day lives.

I don’t see ANY hostility in (2). I see the Constitution’s freedom of religion, freedom to worship in a Synagogue without bring shot, freedom to worship in a Mosque without being bombed, freedom to practice your religion while also understanding the separation between church and state.

What I see in (1) is opinion, an opinion that perhaps relates to the “religion” in the title of the thread, BUT the title of the thread is “Persecution of Religion” which (1) comes pretty damned close to exhibiting, albeit perhaps unwittingly.

Sure, the OP was perhaps somewhat inartful in articulation, but I did not see it as particularly incendiary. The OP asked a question to start a thoughtful discussion.

The majority of the discussion has been about innocent worshippers being murdered trying to privately practice their religion.

The discussion included whether or not racism and nationalism also had a LOT to do with these church-burnings.

So, to come in here and say that getting rid of all religions (and to be secretly spiritual, e.g. in communist countries) would rid the world of religious persecution is not a logical or constructive suggestion, especially considering that the people who commit these acts of terror wish to rid the world of specific TYPES of religions that they - in their opinions - do not find acceptable.

Complaining of hearing about Jews 24/7 is exactly the thing that Unite the Right blasts on their web sites.

Complaining about Christians infiltrating society is exactly the thing that ISIS blasts in their propaganda.

There’s stuff we say that is inflammatory and we don’t even realize it. Put a bunch of inflamed people together (on 8chan) and they work each other up so much that a few compose manifestos and murder people.

Words and opinions, shared publicly, are powerful, and can be dangerous.

We all should stop seeing every damned thread as a confrontation or opportunity to get into the wrestling ring, and instead see it for an intelligent discussion.

I live in an area where my supermarket has a huge Kosher section and two Rabbis on staff, and a huge Passover or Rosh Hashanah section during each holiday. Many of our local restaurants are closed early on Friday and closed all day Saturday for Shabbat. It’s a minor inconvenience, much like businesses closed or open later on Sunday or closed on Christmas is a minor inconvenience for them. But we all live peaceably and respectfully together.

There’s an Israeli restaurant near me that’s great, I’d never eaten FRIES ON A SHWARMA until we went there. :)

This isn’t SOLELY religion; it’s culture. It’s a shared heritage.

See this (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/01/jewish-essentials-for-most-american-jews-ancestry-and-culture-matter-more-than-religion/).

When we asked Jews about what is and is not essential to their own sense of Jewishness, 73% say remembering the Holocaust is essential (including 76% of Jews by religion and 60% of Jews of no religion). Almost as many Jews, 69%, say leading an ethical and moral life is essential, and 56% cite working for social justice and equality; only 19% say observing Jewish law is essential.

Demogorgon

05-07-2019, 01:14 PM

We all should stop seeing every damned thread as a confrontation or opportunity to get into the wrestling ring, and instead see it for an intelligent discussion.

That's a novel and slightly radical concept for some of the people around here.

Edit: And that facepalm just illustrates my point, so thanks, bro.

Swykk

05-07-2019, 02:06 PM

It didn’t, but keep up that passive aggressiveness!

You’re free to worship safely and whatever religion you choose. What shouldn’t happen, for example, is the bitching and moaning fake Christians in the US do about “the war on Christmas,” abortion rights (recently spouting false info about post delivery abortions), and the “We’re so oppressed because you won’t do it how we like.” attitude which is exactly how this thread began and then he pivoted to actual violence, which obviously, I am against—see my various posts on white terrorism in the last few years. It isn’t persecution to tell these people whining about their (OFTEN TWISTED AND CHERRY PICKED) Christian beliefs to stop. Bake the fucking cake. Sign the fucking marriage license. Go tell mother I said to shut the fuck up, Pence. Trump is not a Christian. Can you see the difference between these falsehoods and something absolutely legit like the Holocaust?

I can’t believe I even have to spell this all out but here we are.

allegro

05-07-2019, 02:12 PM

When you react sensitively in a public forum where nobody is going to do an investigation of your prior posts, and in a thread about religious persecution, yes: You have to be clear and spell it out. So thanks for clearing it up.

The OP was merely echoing the news that was all over the place, because Evangelicals are losing control and they are DESPERATE to hang on to whatever they can. The OP merely started a conversation, but we can discuss it respectfully and responsibly without resorting to ad hominem retorts, right?

Regarding the OP and Obama and Clinton not specifically mentioning “Christians” after the Sri Lanka attack:

The Right has brought this up, ad nauseam, as somehow being offensive.

It’s not.

It’s strategic.

Just like not calling ISIS “Radical Islam” (which implies there IS such a thing as radical Islam when, actually, ISIS is a CULT that uses religion as an EXCUSE to commit atrocities).

The Poway shooter is a religious Calvinist Evangelical. Note that the Right (as Jaguar noted) has NOT been blasting that the shooter is a “Radical Evangelical.” Because they don’t want that kind of negative PR, but ALSO because the shooter’s primary motive was white nationalism and there is no such thing as radical Evangelicals.

Slave owners in the South used passages from the Bible to justify ownership of human beings as property.

People twist the 2nd Amendment to mean they should own rocket launchers.

This isn’t about what or who; it’s about the root, it’s about why.

After the recent Sri Lanka Church bombing, Obama said it was a crime against “humanity.”

This is true.

This does not solely affect Christians; it affects any worshipper wishing the freedom to peacefully worship and celebrate a holiday with their family.

This also means the freedom to not worship, which is also protected by our Constitution.

But, whatever, EVERY human has the right to life, to celebrate with family without being shot or blown up.

Being upset that Obama or Clinton did not specify Christianity is indicative of the ROOT of the PROBLEM that SEPARATES us all, misses the point that the dead were - first and foremost - INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Here’s the other thing, re bake the cake:

That bakery owner? He’s out of business. He stood by his beliefs and it cost him his business. And gay couples had lots of other willing bakeries to use, which they did, as exhibited by that baker being unemployed.

The county clerk who refused to sign the marriage licenses for same sex couples? She lost the recent election.

The recent abortion laws? They will either be struck down by Federal Courts or an Underground of safe abortion providers will develop.

theimage13

05-07-2019, 03:49 PM

SM Rollinger

05-07-2019, 04:29 PM

allegro

05-07-2019, 04:31 PM

New Trump rule allows medical care employees to refuse to treat someone if it goes against their religious beliefs (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/05/02/688260025/new-trump-rule-protects-health-care-workers-who-refuse-care-for-religious-reason)

“abortion, sterilization or assisted suicide”

That’s been around forever. Catholic hospitals and medical big-box groups have NEVER done this. I had a GYN out of Resurrection Hospital (now part of Advocate Healthcare) for years back in the 90s who used to joke about what “the Nuns” wouldn’t let him do, as a Dr. out of that hospital. He could go practice at another hospital, he knew that. But he knew that his employer had these restrictions, just like other employers had other restrictions of employment.

Trump is just ass-kissing.

I had read that the CO guy was close to losing his business, but looks like he’s still around. (He has a “donate” button on his web site.) Which is, as much as people don’t like it, his right; he says he’s not against the people, he’s against “the message” (on the cake) and he also doesn’t make all kinds of other cakes, like bachelorette cakes with penises on it, etc.

Christianity is the largest organized religion in the world, so of COURSE it’s not the most persecuted.

But none of us are forced to ONLY live by the rules of Christianity, and he is not being forced to bake a gay cake.

The state is separate from the church.

The state’s job is to issue marriage licenses in order to maintain jurisdiction and control over the marriage, which is a contract. To the state, their role in issuance of a marriage license is no different than a fishing license or a driver’s license or a gun license.

The church can absolutely refuse to marry you. The baker can absolutely refuse to bake your cake.

Because of religious beliefs, which are written into our Constitution, which is a big reason why our country was founded (pilgrims escaping religious persecution).

BUT, there ARE limits.

NO pharmacist can deny you your medication.

NO doctor can deny you emergency treatment. Perform an “emergency abortion?” Hmmm, that sounds like a miscarriage. This is all just smoke and mirrors, a diversionary tactic aimed at getting Trump’s base to focus on shit that Court’s found legal a long time ago and he’s (illegally) backing with an EO as a form of slight of hand to get people to ignore Putin, Kim, Mueller, etc.

The original post “persecution” related to DEATHS, not cakes, and opened the discussion to same.

The inartful addition of text at the bottom perhaps indicates the OP’s lack of experience in composing a first post in a new thread. But in the over 30 years I’ve been online, a first post in a thread was always intended to spark discussion.

allegro

05-07-2019, 04:36 PM

I'm curious as to what Jaguar 's agenda is here with these posts. The far right obsession with Clinton and Obama gave it away.

Who are you working for?

It's such an underhanded tactic, I would respect these right wingers alot more if they were just honest and said "yes, I'm a xenophobe, racist, and I hate liberals.". But to try to spin it around the way they do, by dividing people, is just down right low.
He said he is a Jew whose Synagogue now has to weigh whether or not they should hire armed guards, which means other programs would suffer.

A provocative intro post doesn’t prove an agenda.

A right wing Christian Jew who attends Synagogue? Is this from an 8chan word generator?

allegro

05-07-2019, 05:11 PM

Here’s most of the original post:

Last Saturday, another shooter went into a Synagogue and opened fire on Jews. I don't know about you, but I feel like every time I turn around lately, it's another church, another mosque, another synagogue being set on fire, or shot up, or bombed. Sure it's happened in the past, but not with this kind of frequency. When you add to this the governments who are outlawing certain religions, and torturing their practitioners and throwing them into jail (such as in China), you have to wonder...

Tell me, when did religion become such a wickedness? When did the world declare war on it? When did tolerance go out the window?

I am disturbed by all this.

Let’s take a look;

Here’s an article from May 1st. (https://www.apnews.com/0457e96b9eb74d30b66c2d190c6ed7e5)

Anti-Semitic attacks spike, killing most Jews in decades

Israeli researchers reported Wednesday that violent attacks against Jews spiked significantly last year, with the largest reported number of Jews killed in anti-Semitic acts in decades, leading to an “increasing sense of emergency” among Jewish communities worldwide.

Capped by the deadly shooting that killed 11 worshippers at Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life synagogue on Oct. 27, assaults targeting Jews rose 13% in 2018, according to Tel Aviv University researchers. They recorded nearly 400 cases worldwide, with more than a quarter of the major violent cases taking place in the United States.

But the spike was most dramatic in western Europe, where Jews have faced even greater danger and threats. In Germany, for instance, there was a 70% increase in anti-Semitic violence.

“There is an increasing sense of emergency among Jews in many countries around the world,” said Moshe Kantor, president of the European Jewish Congress, an umbrella group representing Jewish communities across the continent.

“It is now clear that anti-Semitism is no longer limited to the far-left, far-right and radical Islamist’s triangle — it has become mainstream and often accepted by civil society,” he said.

Coping With The Persistent Trauma Of Anti-Muslim Rhetoric And Violence (https://www.npr.org/2019/03/19/704893569/coping-with-the-persistent-trauma-of-anti-muslim-rhetoric-and-violence)

In the U.S., while many young Muslims wept over the loss of life and the hate that drove the killings, they said they weren't surprised. They're a generation that has been raised on a constant barrage of anti-Muslim rhetoric since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

For most of their lives, if not all of their lives, the U.S. has been at war in Afghanistan and Iraq; elected officials from across the spectrum have questioned their patriotism and their loyalties. Meanwhile, mass violence has become almost commonplace, with schools across the United States holding mass-shooting drills for children and, in the past few years, rising numbers of hate crimes against American Muslims and other minorities.

"Every given day there are more Muslims dying, either by these terrorists, in the name of terrorism or in the war against terrorism. But how the trauma is being internalized is what concerns me," Abbasi said. Because Muslim life, she said, can feel like it's worthless to others.

"We already know that trauma can be very disruptive. It's like your story is cut off. Suddenly it takes away your sense of safety, your sense of predictability, but it can also impact your ability to trust, relate, connect, and you feel very isolated and disconnected."

Abbasi points to statistics that show young Muslims are feeling more alienated. Muslim parents report bullying in K-12 school at nearly double the rate of Jewish kids and at more than double and triple the rates of Protestant and Catholic school-age children, respectively. In some cases that bullying is coming from teachers. A survey from the Pew Research Center found that about two-thirds of Muslims don't think other Americans see them as mainstream.

Recently, the Duke of Cambridge visited victims of the Christchurch Mosque shooting (at the request of the New Zealand PM), including a little girl who’d recently came out of a coma and finally started speaking. This royal visit showed unity with the Muslim community, and it took place a full month after the Mosque shooting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qoX3EUGiGUI

The comments on Instagram? Filled with these comments: “WHY AREN’T YOU VISITING THE CHRISTIANS IN SRI LANKA???” (Which bombing had happened only 4 days prior, never mind the fact that his Grannie being the head of the Church of England requires no show of unity toward Christians ... it’s a foregone conclusion.)

The OP poses a good question, particularly in light of the above and considering that people are grouping innocent school children in with ISIS terrorists: “When did tolerance go out the window?”

Can we become more tolerant?

Is Trump fueling the intolerance?

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:18 PM

As bleak as what @BRoswell (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=219) said is, a lot of it is true.

I would say that organized religion, for all the good effects it can have, is also fucking DANGEROUS, because of a few people.

There's a verse in the old testament that says something to the effect of "if you find a town where a different God is worshipped, then, you must kill everyone there, and kill all their animals, and burn the town."

Here's another thing. The Christians of TODAY aren't usually killing people, @Jaguar (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=7194) , but think of the crusades and the inquisition. ANd, I think part of the reasons that Muslims ARE, is because Islam is a much newer religion. I think that, in another 500 years, there won't be hardly any Muslims who take the violent shit in the Koran, (like that verse in the bible,) so literally. Christianity and Judaism have had time to mellow. Islam hasn't had nearly as much time.
@Jaguar (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=7194) , we always have at least one person armed at my church. We rotate who it is: the sheriff, a cop, one dude with a concealed carry permit. Could you guys do it like that?
I think that you are correct that it becomes dangerous in the hands of a few people. But we have to contrast this to how healthy and uplifting it is to both the individual and to society in the overwhelming number of cases.

Yes, I agree with your next statement about mellowing. Both Christianity and Judaism have gone through Reformations (including Vatican 2). Islam has not yet had that chance.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:20 PM

Ugh... people do bad stuff to people, and they justify it with what they have at hand.

I think this is mostly due to the fact that bad people bring their bad character with them when they enter a religion, rather than a religion creates bad character in those who were essentially once good people.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:21 PM

Yeah...this is true, to a degree. Perhaps religious extremists would have killed people for some other reason.

But, I truly believe that some of these people WOULDN'T commit violent acts, if it weren't for religion.

As Jonathan Swift once proposed, if we weren't killing people for their religions, nationality, or ethnicity, we'd be killing them for which end of the egg they cracked open.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:25 PM

It’s true that many Christians blame all Jews for killing Jesus (discounting the fact that Jesus was a Jew). All this “pro Israel” crap from the right isn’t because they care about Jews; it’s only because the Bible tells them to protect Jews in Israel (where Jesus was born) so Jesus will come back.
This does them a disservice. While it is true, it is also true that they love Israel for its own sake, that they see Israel as God's chosen, that God will bless those who bless us. And they do bless us. This alternative of white supremacy is a throwback. It is an interpretation of some of the verses in their Christian scriptures that normative Christianity interprets quite differently these days.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:28 PM

I do not believe that religion should govern our lives
If our religion doesn't govern our lives, it's pretty impotent.

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 05:31 PM

If our religion doesn't govern our lives, it's pretty impotent.

As it should be, alongside any other dogma that dictates absolutely how you should think and feel about shit.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:33 PM

You’re free to worship safely and whatever religion you choose. What shouldn’t happen, for example, is the bitching and moaning fake Christians in the US do about “the war on Christmas,” abortion rights (recently spouting false info about post delivery abortions), and the “We’re so oppressed because you won’t do it how we like.” attitude which is exactly how this thread began and then he pivoted to actual violence, which obviously, I am against—see my various posts on white terrorism in the last few years. It isn’t persecution to tell these people whining about their (OFTEN TWISTED AND CHERRY PICKED) Christian beliefs to stop. Bake the fucking cake. Sign the fucking marriage license. Go tell mother I said to shut the fuck up, Pence. Trump is not a Christian. Can you see the difference between these falsehoods and something absolutely legit like the Holocaust?

I can’t believe I even have to spell this all out but here we are.
I certainly don't approve of every issue Christians raise. However it is their God given right to practice their religion, and THAT means living out their religion in their daily lives. This means that their religion effects their views on cultural traditions and governmental policies.

Get a thicker skin. If I can put up with it, so can you. It's called tolerance of people with different views, all part and parcel of being part of a modern democracy.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:36 PM

I'm curious as to what @Jaguar (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=7194) 's agenda is here with these posts. The far right obsession with Clinton and Obama gave it away.

Who are you working for?

It's such an underhanded tactic, I would respect these right wingers alot more if they were just honest and said "yes, I'm a xenophobe, racist, and I hate liberals.". But to try to spin it around the way they do, by dividing people, is just down right low.
Actually I'm a centrist. When it comes to morality, I'm very traditional like the right wing. But when it comes to social policies like the poor or the environment, I'm definitely left wing. On most issues, like national defense or economic policy, I'm right in the middle.

As a Jew, I've experience discrimination first hand. I've lived down the street from shootings and attended a synagogue that had been rebuilt after a fire started by a molotov cocktail. I've personally been accosted in the street, and I've been called every vile name in the book.

Because of those experiences, I'm very sensitive to others being discriminated against: different races, women, LGBT, different religions, immigrants, different nationalities, etc. When one of us is discriminated against, all of us are.

allegro

05-07-2019, 05:39 PM

As it should be, alongside any other dogma that dictates absolutely how you should think and feel about shit.

Now we are getting into the weeds of judgment about religion, and wtf I wish this is where we could at least be tolerant.

No religion guides “absolutely” how you feel about things all day everyday. It guides your spirituality, your sense of purpose, your need to help your neighbors and family and the poor, to be a good citizen, to be a good person, to follow a good path, to be a steward of the environment, to be a voice for those without one, etc.

For the Atheists (non-organized only because they can’t get tax write-offs but still preaching all the same) to come into a thread about religious intolerance leading to so many DEATHS and then exhibit more religious intolerance is Trolling.

I’ve been a proponent of civil rights nearly my entire life. And one of those things I hold deeply is fairness and tolerance.

This is where Christians AND Atheists go terribly wrong.

I’ll tell you one thing: THE biggest group of civil rights activists in the world are Jews. They are committed to tolerance and civi rights not only by their religion but by their history.

For example, who’s helping asylum seekers at our southern border, risking their own safety?

HIAS (https://www.hias.org/).

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:42 PM

A right wing Christian Jew who attends Synagogue? Is this from an 8chan word generator?
A Christian Jew? Heaven forbid. LOL

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 05:45 PM

A Christian Jew? Heaven forbid. LOL

I can't even... begin to... what the...

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:48 PM

I’ll tell you one thing: THE biggest group of civil rights activists in the world are Jews. They are committed to tolerance and civi rights not only by their religion but by their history.
Absolutely, Cat. I don't know if you are Jewish, but you'd sure make a good one.

Jews fought alongside blacks during the civil rights movement. The feminist movement was started by Jewish women. No one in the US has a more positive image of Muslims than Jews. Etc.

For those who don't know, this all has to do with something called Tikkun Olam, the repair of the world. Although some forms of Judaism teach the world to come, we are largely unconcerned with it. What we are concerned with is the creation of heaven on Earth.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 05:49 PM

As it should be, alongside any other dogma that dictates absolutely how you should think and feel about shit.
You see, this is the attitude that runs contrary to the very notion of freedom of religion. It is out of sink with modern democracy.

Swykk

05-07-2019, 05:56 PM

I certainly don't approve of every issue Christians raise. However it is their God given right to practice their religion, and THAT means living out their religion in their daily lives. This means that their religion effects their views on cultural traditions and governmental policies.

Get a thicker skin. If I can put up with it, so can you. It's called tolerance of people with different views, all part and parcel of being part of a modern democracy.

Take you own advice about the thicker skin. Get better arguments (that don’t involve backpedaling when your very first post reads like something Shitefart would pay you to write and you are justifiably lit up for it). I’m intolerant of stupid assholes that are ruining this country with their lies while they try to hide behind a cross. The kid gloves have been off since November 2016. It’s called having real values and knowing to rely more on science than any religion. Speaking of which, no religion should shape a country’s laws. I know the US isn’t the only place that repeatedly screws this up but we should really know better by now. I want progress and I’m sick of the people that want to Make America 1953 Again. I will not be nice to people killing the future. Fuck that cowardice.

allegro

05-07-2019, 05:56 PM

A Christian Jew? Heaven forbid. LOL

LOL LOL my former boss of many years, who grew up Orthodox but then became Reform, used to see “Jews for Jesus” on the streets of the Loop (Chicago) with their signs and it used to work him up to no end, like some kind of overload of cognitive dissonance LOL LOL !!!

(For those wondering: Christianity in Judaism is a total oxymoron and is offensive to the Jewish community.)

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 06:08 PM

You see, this is the attitude that runs contrary to the very notion of freedom of religion. It is out of sink with modern democracy.

You see, you don't know shit about me. My perspective is informed by every single thing I've ever experienced, every piece of philosophy I've consumed (and that includes every religion I've studied), everything I've thought long and hard about, and it's a constantly changing and evolving perspective.

No one source tells me how to feel and think about everything. It's fine if that does it for you, but get off my fucking front doorstep with that shit before I grab the hose.

allegro

05-07-2019, 06:17 PM

Take you own advice about the thicker skin. Get better arguments (that don’t involve backpedaling when your very first post reads like something Shitefart would pay you to write and you are justifiably lit up for it).
Man, maybe it’s because I had to interpret law for so many years, but I just don’t see that. The part about Obama and Clinton stood out to you as Breitbart, immediately, even though he was posing a rhetorical question?

We went into Iraq in 2003 basically because we needed to punish some towel-heads for 9-11 and it didn’t matter which ones.

Black people get pulled over by cops for driving a new car because cops think they stole it.

People in this country think Latinos are coming across the southern border to kill us, rape us, sell us drugs, take our jobs, and be on welfare. (Said Latinos are all Catholic.)

The guy in the White House has cheated on all 3 of his wives, including while one was pregnant and then again after she had the baby, yet the “religious” right only wants tax cuts.

Religion really has NOTHING to do with any of this shit.

We are closer to legalized pot, gay marriage is legal, Roe ain’t going anywhere, but you know what IS happening?

People are being shot and bombed or their churches are getting burned up because there’s negroes in them.

If churches are controlling things, who is trying to get rid of them?

In Louisiana, the son of a Sheriff’s deputy set fire to three black Baptist churches:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-accused-setting-fire-3-black-churches-louisiana-charged-hate-n995286

Swykk

05-07-2019, 06:30 PM

Yes, that first post is full of the victim playing whataboutism. Also, those are his words about religion shaping cultural traditions and government. Not mine. Doesn’t surprise me at all to hear that’s the goal, though. It always has been about social control. It’s exactly what Trumpence are using it for. It’s what W used it for.

Anyway, I’m done. This isn’t productive, really. Some of you are going to think he is a decent guy. I don’t. Wouldn’t be shocked to find out after some time passes that he’s one of the banned folks returning to ETS to cause shit again. Maybe I’m wrong about that last part.

allegro

05-07-2019, 06:37 PM

Heh, I am a pretty decent detector of whataboutism and I don't see any of it in his post, it seems like he was inclusive of everybody and mentions that most wars aren't really about religion, they're really about property and money.

Which is true.

And I don't detect any "victim" shit at all. He just posed a question, for discussion, as to what's causing it, why.

He's stating facts that are supported by the F.B.I. (https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/adl-calls-on-leaders-to-redouble-efforts-to-counter-hate-after-fbi-reports-hate)

For 2017, the FBI reported:

* A 23 percent increase in religion-based hate crimes. The 1,564 crimes reported in 2017 was the second highest number of religion-based crimes ever, surpassed only in 2001 in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

* Attacks on Jews accounted for 60 percent of all religion-based hate crimes, the highest of any targeted religious group. There were 938 crimes against Jews in 2017, up from 684 in 2016.

* An 18 percent increase in race-based crimes, accounting for 58 percent of all hate crimes last year. Crimes against African-Americans were the plurality of these and accounted for 28 percent of all reported hate crimes.

* A 24 percent increase in hate crimes against Latinos. There were also significant increases in the number of hate crimes directed against Arab Americans (100 percent), Asian-Pacific Americans (20 percent), and Native Americans (63 percent).

* A 5 percent rise in crimes directed against LGBT individuals, rising from 1,076 crimes in 2016 to 1,130 in 2017.

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 07:31 PM

allegro

05-07-2019, 08:03 PM

I'm sorry @Cat Mom (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76), I don't think this thread OP is really concerned with the rising trend in statistics towards people facing persecution for their convictions in a way that we can actionably do anything about it.... though I'm more surprised at the rejection of the idea that we shouldn't subscribe to one holy doctrine as a guide book to run our lives.

But whatever, I'm with @Swykk (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285) here and I don't see this conversation going anywhere great.
I thought it WAS a pretty interesting discussion, I was really enjoying it until a few of you got all paranoid and combative and mean and started trolling the thread without ever really contributing anything meaningful to the content.

I’m disgusted.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 08:03 PM

Take you own advice about the thicker skin. Get better arguments (that don’t involve backpedaling when your very first post reads like something Shitefart would pay you to write and you are justifiably lit up for it). I’m intolerant of stupid assholes that are ruining this country with their lies while they try to hide behind a cross. The kid gloves have been off since November 2016. It’s called having real values and knowing to rely more on science than any religion. Speaking of which, no religion should shape a country’s laws. I know the US isn’t the only place that repeatedly screws this up but we should really know better by now. I want progress and I’m sick of the people that want to Make America 1953 Again. I will not be nice to people killing the future. Fuck that cowardice.
How am I hiding behind a cross when I'm not even a Christian?

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 08:38 PM

I thought it WAS a pretty interesting discussion, I was really enjoying it until a few of you got all paranoid and combative and mean and started trolling the thread without ever really contributing anything meaningful to the content.

I’m disgusted.

I haven't been trolling. All I've said, more or less, is that "obeying a strict set of commands written thousands of years ago about how to strictly go about things isn't the way to go about living your life." I'm not the one telling people how to live their life, outside of objecting to the idea that we should live by a strict set of ancient rules. You face palmed me for saying that I take in stuff from everywhere to inform my world view. I'm not even sure what you're objecting to, but I suspect it's something else that @Jaguar (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=7194) is objecting to here. Who knows though.

You are completely missing my point earlier if you think I am from any viewpoint other than "let everyone live their life, as long as they leave me alone." That changes if you ask me what I think, but I don't care what people believe as long as I'm left alone.

AND this thread is asking what people think, right? So I said what I think.
I for one, I guess, am not going to mourn the fact that pclare isn't here to make this conversation more awesome.

allegro

05-07-2019, 08:52 PM

I haven't been trolling. All I've said, more or less, is that "obeying a strict set of commands written thousands of years ago about how to strictly go about things isn't the way to go about living your life."

Okay but how is that staying in topic?

The Topic Header is: “Persecution of Religion”

Then the original poster, IMO, doesn’t seem too soap-boxy; he poses some fodder for discussion;

Last Saturday, another shooter went into a Synagogue and opened fire on Jews. I don't know about you, but I feel like every time I turn around lately, it's another church, another mosque, another synagogue being set on fire, or shot up, or bombed. Sure it's happened in the past, but not with this kind of frequency. When you add to this the governments who are outlawing certain religions, and torturing their practitioners and throwing them into jail (such as in China), you have to wonder...

Tell me, when did religion become such a wickedness? When did the world declare war on it? When did tolerance go out the window?

I am disturbed by all this.

This is followed by some fascinating and very intelligent and informative responses to his question.

Blaming religion, itself, for attacks on religious institutions with worshippers in them was also addressed and discussed as not always being the true motive of the terrorist; the true motive being white nationalism (viewing Jews as an undesirable ethnic group that must not replace white European Protestants), or racist, etc.

So coming in here and digressing the topic to things like WHY people are religious in the first place is not only drift but it goes against the Constitutional freedoms that the shooters, themselves, wish to destroy.

If you truly believed that people should live and let live, you wouldn’t even be IN this thread - since you evidently have nothing of substance to contribute related to the ACTUAL topic of the disturbing increase in anti-Semitic hate crimes, which the left has been addressing and the Right has been claiming they aren’t doing (although the FBI’s records indicate that the vast majority of these crimes are committed by far right groups) and Trump called the Charlottesville racists “good people” and publicly stated that he believes that White Nationalists are rare outliers.

Live and let live includes defense of people’s right to do so without fear of death.

It should also include the ability to partake in an intelligent discussion without being shouted down by people telling you that your “people” being killed kinda deserve it for being religious so stop playing the “victim.”

I wasn’t talking about Pclare.

I meant more like Achamoth and Elke.

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 09:04 PM

Blaming religion, itself, for attacks on religious institutions with worshippers in them was also addressed and discussed as often not being the true motive of the terrorist; the true motive being white nationalism (viewing Jews as an undesirable ethnic group that must not replace white European Protestants), or racist, etc.

And this was another point I was making earlier.

So coming in here and digressing the topic to things like WHY people are religious in the first place is not only drift but it goes against the Constitutional freedoms that the shooters, themselves, wish to destroy,

You aren't going to have a discussion about the persecution of religion without an extrapolation that examines WHY people are religious in the first place.

allegro

05-07-2019, 09:21 PM

You aren't going to have a discussion about the persecution of religion without an extrapolation that examines WHY people are religious in the first place.
Look, his TITLE HEADER SUCKED, OKAY?

If you read his POST, it’s more about banning religions and about killing people who practice them.

Then, because first posts don’t live in a vacuum, some astute posters, including one who works in Christian ministry, pointed out that murdering people of a particular religion isn’t usually about the religion; it’s usually more often about their race or ethnicity. Then the thread grew from there.

Like the Holocaust. That wasn’t about religion.

This was interesting.

Then you guys showed up.

Going way the FUCK off into the WEEDS about why people are religious in the first place is a useless discussion that has NOTHING to do with why people are KILLING said people, UNLESS you are proposing that people are killing religious people because they EXIST and the killings are an attempt to exterminate all religious people.

Which is unfounded. And drift.

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 09:33 PM

so, you want a discussion where we talk about the motivations of people ABUSING their false piety to attack religious groups, but not look at what makes people believe this stuff in the first place, and why people cling to these beliefs. The people who believe this stuff are being weaponized, and they're hitting true-believer targets to send a message, but we can't talk about belief?

So, I said my piece, but if THAT is where this is going, I'll bow out and you guys can enjoy the conversation you were enjoying before I completely ruined it by offering my two cents on the nature of belief and how I think it's central to the discussion.

I'll see myself out.

allegro

05-07-2019, 10:00 PM

Jinsai: I think this thread went off the rails when people assumed, from the OP, that the original poster was Christian and felt persecuted, but he's Jewish, so several posts after that addressed him as if he's Christian, but he's not.

The statistics don't show that religion drives killing Jews or Muslims or non-Protestant Christians, etc., as already discussed. The stats point to the current killings being motivated by white nationalism, exceptionalism, "othering," etc.

And this has been going on for thousands of years. My answer to the OP is this: It's worse right now, but it's been WAY fucking worse, before.

Like, um, PASSOVER is a good example?

BRoswell

05-07-2019, 10:06 PM

If our religion doesn't govern our lives, it's pretty impotent.

Which it is. Religion only has power if we give it power. On its own, it's nothing.

It should also include the ability to partake in an intelligent discussion without being shouted down by people telling you that your “people” being killed kinda deserve it for being religious so stop playing the “victim.”

I find the idea that people deserve to be killed for their religion abhorrent, and being accused of such thinking is incredibly misguided. I don't believe that, and if your takeaway from my comments is that I do, you should re-read them.

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 10:07 PM

But, she makes those choices willingly

I feel that any "life choice" you make before the age of ten and then stick to for the rest of your life, but felt at least troubled by the concept of abandoning it, is not really a "choice," but there I go again with my drift... even though we're talking about apostasy, which can get you killed in some parts of the world.

But AGAIN, if your religious beliefs aren't spurring you into yelling at people about how they're going to hell or leading you to becoming politically involved in restricting others' rights, or not KILLING OTHER PEOPLE because of what you believe, then who cares what I think about it. AND YES, to be on topic, the people directing the killing are abusing convictions; the people pulling the trigger though are TRUE BELIEVERS.

allegro

05-07-2019, 10:14 PM

I feel that any "life choice" you make before the age of ten and then stick to for the rest of your life, but felt at least troubled by the concept of abandoning it, is not really a "choice," but there I go again with my drift... even though we're talking about apostasy, which can get you killed in some parts of the world.
I deleted that portion of my thread to avoid drift, but in this case she was a fellow student in my college who's really intelligent and was getting a B.A. in English and then was going for a Master's degree. While wearing an abaya and a hijab. She got married to a guy in an arranged marriage. And she's GORGEOUS. It's all really foreign to me. But, lots of shit I'm used to is really foreign to people in other countries. My Mom mixes ginger and wasabi in her soy sauce at sushi restaurants then dunks her entire sushi into it then swirls it around until it's completely inundated in soy mix and she makes the sushi chefs want to commit hari kari.

Jinsai

05-07-2019, 10:16 PM

I deleted that portion of my thread to avoid drift, but in this case she was a fellow student in my college who's really intelligent and was getting a B.A. in English and then was going for a Master's degree. While wearing a hijab. She got married to a guy in an arranged marriage. And she's GORGEOUS. It's all really foreign to me. But, lots of shit I'm used to is really foreign to people in other countries. My Mom mixes ginger and wasabi in her soy sauce at sushi restaurants then dunks her entire sushi into it then swirls it around until it's completely inundated in soy mix and she makes the sushi chefs want to commit hari kari.

Well, here's the end of my drift, but your mom is ordering a well done steak and smothering it in ketchup.

But on topic, whatever makes her happy.

allegro

05-07-2019, 10:22 PM

I do not believe that religion should govern our lives

If our religion doesn't govern our lives, it's pretty impotent.

Which it is. Religion only has power if we give it power. On its own, it's nothing.

Okay, but "our" is a subjective term, here, right?

Your "our" means you don't let religion govern your life.

His "our" means that if religion doesn't govern his life, it's impotent.

He's not asking his religion to govern your life, right? He's only saying that it governs his?

The OP also said this:

As a Jew, I've experience discrimination first hand. I've lived down the street from shootings and attended a synagogue that had been rebuilt after a fire started by a molotov cocktail. I've personally been accosted in the street, and I've been called every vile name in the book.

Because of those experiences, I'm very sensitive to others being discriminated against: different races, women, LGBT, different religions, immigrants, different nationalities, etc. When one of us is discriminated against, all of us are.

BRoswell

05-07-2019, 10:30 PM

Okay, but "our" is a subjective term, here, right?

Your "our" means you don't let religion govern your life.

His "our" means that if religion doesn't govern his life, it's impotent.

He's not asking his religion to govern your life, right?

It's not about his religion governing my life. My point is that religion only has power if we give it power. It has no power on its own, therefore letting something like that govern your life seems futile to me. It's his life and he can do what he wants, but I also can point out how I feel about that.

allegro

05-07-2019, 10:37 PM

It's his life and he can do what he wants, but I also can point out how I feel about that.

And tell him how to feel about that?

Which it is. [Impotent.] Religion only has power if we give it power. On its own, it's nothing.

This avocado has no power until I stick it into my mouth. Until then, it's nothing.

I find the idea that people deserve to be killed for their religion abhorrent, and being accused of such thinking is incredibly misguided.

I'm glad you find it abhorrent, that's good.

I said to Jinsai:

It should also include the ability to partake in an intelligent discussion without being shouted down by people telling you that your “people” being killed kinda deserve it for being religious so stop playing the “victim.”

I didn't quote you, but if you read through this thread you will find evidence from others.

Jaguar

05-07-2019, 11:15 PM

It's not about his religion governing my life. My point is that religion only has power if we give it power. It has no power on its own, therefore letting something like that govern your life seems futile to me. It's his life and he can do what he wants, but I also can point out how I feel about that.
Religion is like any object of power. It DOES have its own power. But it depends upon free will as to whether a person will avail itself of that power or not. Basically, if a person wants to change and better themselves, there is no better tool than religion. But not everyone chooses religion, and even many within a given religion don't avail themselves of its tools. It only works for those that grasp it by the horns and ride it for all its worth. Sorry for so many different metaphors! LOL

BRoswell

05-07-2019, 11:22 PM

Basically, if a person wants to change and better themselves, there is no better tool than religion.

I completely disagree. I've seen the harm that religion causes on a global scale, and I'm not just speaking of terrorism.

And tell him how to feel about that?

He doesn't HAVE to feel any which way about what I said. Why do you assume that I feel like I have some sort of power over him just because I'm speaking my mind?

allegro

05-07-2019, 11:36 PM

He doesn't HAVE to feel any which way about what I said. Why do you assume that I feel like I have some sort of power over him just because I'm speaking my mind?
I don't. I don't get why you don't get the basic premise of letting people believe what they want, because they're not going to believe otherwise and this is just a circle jerk?

shrug

It's like my saying I hate eggplant, then 5 people come in here telling me how fucking delicious eggplant is. But I'm never going to be convinced that I like eggplant, even if eggplant has special cancer healing powers. On the other hand, I'm not going to go into the eggplant forum and tell them all how much I fucking hate eggplant, and counter every eggplant recipe with a suggestion that the eggplant is not fit for human consumption and that I have disdain for people who enjoy eggplant, and then the eggplant people chase me out of the forum and facepalm me until I have a sunburned appearance.

Like, above, Jaguar speaks from a philosophical and deeply personal level based on his own relationship with G-d, when he says that if a person wants to better themselves they can get it from religion, because he's obviously experienced that, himself. Then, you counter that you COMPLETELY DISAGREE that it can do that. And NOBODY is gonna win (or get anything beneficial from) this discussion, and he's just proven his point about a growing disdain for religion after you site the "harm that religion causes on a global scale."

Here's an interesting article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/opinion/how-religion-can-lead-to-violence.html

elevenism said something earlier which Obama also says in this article: “Some currents of Islam have not gone through a reformation that would help people adapt their religious doctrines to modernity.”

I think we can say the same thing about Evangelicals.

BRoswell

05-08-2019, 12:50 AM

And NOBODY is gonna win (or get anything beneficial from) this discussion...

See, that's the problem. It's not about winning an argument for me. I'm not here to claim some sort of victory.

allegro

05-08-2019, 12:59 AM

See, that's the problem. It's not about winning an argument for me. I'm not here to claim some sort of victory.

Okay, but when the discussion is about the increase in violence against religion (which is fact), and your opinion = religion sucks and is unnecessary, is there a correlation between the fact and your opinion (to rescue it from being a non sequitur)? A Venn diagram?

Other than what you stated is NOT a correlation (that religion invites violence and deserves it by its mere existence = intolerance).

BRoswell

05-08-2019, 01:13 AM

Okay, but when the discussion is about the increase in violence against religion (which is fact), and your opinion is religion sucks and is unnecessary, is there a correlation between the fact and your opinion (to rescue it from being a non sequitur)? A Venn diagram?

The correlation is that violence against religions tends to be perpetrated by people from other religions, which I find to be absurd since most religions (the popular ones anyway) are not all that different from each other. People are so focused on the differences between their preferred religions that they're blind to what makes them so similar. I find the loss of human life to be tragic no matter what religion is involved, but the core concept of killing in the name of your religion is utterly ridiculous to me.

To steer this back to the original topic: I don't find religion in general to be persecuted around the world. Yes, certain religions are persecuted in places, but the idea that non-religious bigotry is running rampant is silly. So much of our world is governed by what the religious believe. Shit, banks and many businesses here in the States are closed on Sundays simply because we've been told that God rested on that day. Most of our politicians identify as religious, and use their religion as justification for how they lead us. The idea that the religious are somehow being shunned and forced into the dark is ridiculous to me. Others may not see it that way, but that's the way it seems to me.

allegro

05-08-2019, 01:33 AM

You should read this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/31/nyregion/jewish-bias-safety-nyc.html

Throughout history, and throughout the world, anti Semitism is largely committed by groups like the KKK or Nazis or white nationalists, who harm or kill Jews due to their ethnicity and not their religion. This is where the TITLE of the thread is incorrect. Attacking a man in NYC for “speaking Hebrew” is totally unrelated to his religion. It’s related to his ethnicity. Swastikas plastered on Synagogues and around the city aren’t put there by a religious group. The Holocaust didn’t happen because of the Jews’ religion, and the people who did it weren’t motivated by religion.

Blue laws have faded in nearly every state in the union. Bank and labor union laws are now the most predominant reason why some businesses are closed on Sundays, related to overtime, etc. In fact, most businesses are now open on Sunday and on Christmas. Again, the title doesn’t strictly drive discussion. The OP posed this statement as fodder for discussion: “Even those who don't advocate violence get caught up in anti-religious rhetoric.” He missed the point that a lot of worldwide anti Semitism isn’t rooted in religion, at all; it’s based on thousands of years of scapegoating. “Merchant of Venice” and Shylock.

Anyway, thanks for your explanation. I just hope and wish that people can live together peacefully and respectfully; sure, people can have their differences, but when anger gets into the picture, that's where it all starts to get bad. Anger begets the rhetoric that I think the original poster was trying to convey. There are a TON of articles about this in the news for the last several months, very interest pieces about how we may be wording our opinions in ways that are unwittingly inciting things.

Rep. Omar, for instance. I learned a lot from when that happened, as did she. Charging Jews with having "dual loyalty," for instance, is anti-Semitic. Then, guys like Rep. Crenshaw, who went after Rep. Omar for being anti-Semitic, questions HER loyalty and is, in affect, exhibiting anti-Muslim tropes. These very public displays can and do fuel the fires of nationalism; right after these things happen, attacks happen.

Jaguar

05-08-2019, 07:55 PM

I completely disagree. I've seen the harm that religion causes on a global scale, and I'm not just speaking of terrorism.
But these are exceptions to the rule, from Islam to Christianity to Buddhism to Hinduism. These are people who have bigotry and violence in them when they enter religion, and simply USE religion to excuse what is actually their own character flaw.

Jinsai

05-08-2019, 08:28 PM

But these are exceptions to the rule, from Islam to Christianity to Buddhism to Hinduism. These are people who have bigotry and violence in them when they enter religion, and simply USE religion to excuse what is actually their own character flaw.

So, when people take bad things from religion, it has nothing to do with religion, but when people get good things out of it, it's entirely because of the power of religion?

allegro

05-08-2019, 09:59 PM

So, when people take bad things from religion, it has nothing to do with religion, but when people get good things out of it, it's entirely because of the power of religion?

Bad people often use religion as an excuse to do bad shit. They twist interpretations to serve their own purpose (which can be done with anything, really; politics, labor unions, education, law, philosophy, etc.)

Good people are good people, and religion is inspirational for them to do more good things.

Religion was pretty much invented to keep people civilized. The people who corrupt the intent are the ones who are less about the original intention of religion and more about fulfilling some personal agenda (greed, sexual abuse, power, intolerance), or have mental illness, or are just plain old stupid.

The example I always think of, that makes me laugh, is the sect of Christian people down south who handle snakes in church during their service. And they get BIT by these snakes. A LOT. But they do this because the Bible says “These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will . . . pick up snakes with their hands.” But nobody is supposed to take most of this shit LITERALLY. The Bible also says, “And when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all,” but they ain’t drinking POISON in church. And it’s the same shit with Islamic suicide bombers allegedly wanting the “72 virgins” but there is no such thing, there is the Houri (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri) which is like Plato’s Forms meets Hustler and your Wettest Dreams.

The Bible, the Torah, the Quran, they’re all pieces of LITERATURE. You and I have BACHELOR DEGREES in interpreting literature. We studied various forms of interpretative literary theory. Academic research yields THOUSANDS of essays interpreting classic pieces of literature, in different ways.

Combine the various possibilities of literary interpretation with the AGE of the books plus the translations, and you have a powder keg.

BRoswell

05-09-2019, 08:48 AM

Good people are good people, and religion is inspirational for them to do more good things.

But there are good people who don't need religion to be good people, so why do those other good people need religion for them to do good things?

allegro

05-09-2019, 01:42 PM

But there are good people who don't need religion to be good people, so why do those other good people need religion for them to do good things?

They don’t “need” religion; they “want” religion. Their “need” isn’t a need in the addictive sense or the imperative sense; they’d still likely be good people without organized religion. But these people tend to enjoy several aspects of organized religion, like socializing, gathering, rituals (like directed prayers and music), classes, philanthropic efforts, etc.

I’m totally antisocial so the thought of all that stuff turns me off. Which is why I don’t go to church. All that hand-shaking and small talk and coffee cake and social groups ain’t my thing. But, I get why people do it. It helps lonely people be less lonely, joins families in the community, joins children in extracurricular activities.

My single Mom couldn’t afford summer camp when I was a kid, but the Baptist churches had free summer day camp programs where a bus picked us latchkey kids up and we did arts and crafts all day and played games and it wasn’t any kind of crazy religious indoctrination; it was just people caring for bored children in the summer and keeping all of us busy. And we weren’t even Baptist, and nobody cared and nobody asked. Some of the best times we ever had.

My hairstylist has two kids, she’s a single Mom, she can barely afford daycare; daycare during the summer is INSANELY expensive. But she found a summer day camp program through the local Jewish Community Center for pretty cheap. She discovered, as I did when I joined the gym at my local JCC, that you don’t have to be Jewish to partake in the services offered by the JCC. So her non-Jewish young children will be attending a low-cost JCC summer day camp program, thanks to the money raised by the Jewish community.

The local Lutheran churches have programs that assist low income elderly people, including providing housing and meals. I’m not Lutheran but I’ve directed several low income elderly people to these resources (who don’t have to be Lutheran to obtain them). These are elderly who are being forced to choose between paying for rent, medication or food. The local and Federal governments are not providing for these people. The CHURCHES are covering the slack. Many local churches have food pantries for people whose SNAP benefits are insufficient to feed themselves and their families. Church members enjoy being a part of this assistance, donating their time collecting food and disbursing it every week. Many churches conduct coat drives in the winter. Being a part of a religious community is what drives these people to be in a group that can use their combined resources to perform philanthropic work. They feel a kinship with a shared drive, and they have the church’s benefit of tax exemption.

(The new tax code and the revised deduction has greatly hurt most charities, since nobody can write off charitable deductions because most people are not likely to write off more than the standard deduction.)

AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Our founding fathers included this clause with the intention of liberty and tolerance.

katara

05-09-2019, 02:44 PM

Just gonna put this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgkThdzX-8

Mantra

05-09-2019, 04:04 PM

Personally, I feel like widespread religious tolerance is always going to have an uphill battle to face given the very nature of religious belief.

See, it's easier to adopt a pluralistic "live and let live" attitude about things that are personal, subjective, or just unique to your particular culture. When it comes to cultural differences in food, art, fashion, social customs, etc, people have an easier time being tolerant because the stakes just aren't as high and "the other" is not a direct threat. In those examples, the mere existence of another form of cultural expression doesn't completely negate or cancel out your own, so it's a little easier to coexist.

Whereas monotheistic religion is, for the most part, a zero sum game. They're designed to cancel each other out. Which is why it's rare that a "true believer" of a major religion is going to think, "Sure, this happens to be my little belief system, but who's to say what's actually true? Maybe that other religion over there is correct and mine is completely false." Obviously there ARE many who think that way, but those people are not the "true believers." They are the doubters, the skeptics, the wavering believers. Or they're simply very humble, open-minded people who have decided to soften and minimize the absolutism of their own religions, essentially deciding that their own private reasoning can supersede the actual doctrines of their religion. But for the "true believer," this God is 100% objectively real, every bit as real as this keyboard and this wooden desk right here, and so is every last word of his doctrine. If you truly see the universe this way, there's no way you're gonna shrug your shoulders and be like "Maybe those other religions are just as good as mine." So I would argue that the very notion of equality and coexistence among the major religions is antithetical to their inherent design and would completely invalidate their authority and their claims to objective, universal truth. They can't ALL be right, and I think any religious believer who argues otherwise can only do so by standing in direct opposition to their religion (which many people do, of course, and I have a lot of respect for that).

Archive_Reports

05-09-2019, 04:29 PM

So, when people take bad things from religion, it has nothing to do with religion, but when people get good things out of it, it's entirely because of the power of religion?

If someone is inspired by a movie to go out and shoot people, is it the movie's fault?

Mantra

05-09-2019, 05:11 PM

If someone is inspired by a movie to go out and shoot people, is it the movie's fault?

Are movies equal to ancient mass religions?

allegro

05-09-2019, 05:34 PM

*sigh*

Which still doesn't address the fact that the largest number of hate crimes in the world and in the U.S. have been committed against Jews, NOT because of their religion and - in the U.S., anyway - NOT committed BY other religions.

So the original poster's misguided premise sparked a multi-page discussion but it was based on an incorrect premise, which the mainstream media keeps repeating but even the F.B.I. has debunked:

The main culprit is worse. (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/nazis-racism-charlottesville/536928/)

It's just plain old ethnic hatred and nationalism.
(https://newrepublic.com/article/153329/white-nationalism-international-threat)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/nCHKK53K5eWtXh6zR1UEvCRqZ4c=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/FZSVT2SQBMI6TPNXIT4URTAGAU.jpg

Here's an article from the Washington Post:

Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.88eca7c23dad)

“In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.”

The Führer’s skepticism and devious behavior toward organized religion began innocently enough — in weekly Bible classes.

By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”

“I can’t at present give them the answer they’ve been asking for,” Hitler said. “The time will come when I’ll settle my account with them. They’ll hear from me all right.”

But first, he had to finish off the Jews.

Here's a link to the Anne Frank House (https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/why-did-hitler-hate-jews/):

Antisemitism: an age-old phenomenon

Hitler did not invent the hatred of Jews. Jews in Europe had been victims of discrimination and persecution since the Middle Ages, often for religious reasons. Christians saw the Jewish faith as an aberration that had to be quashed. Jews were sometimes forced to convert or they were not allowed to practice certain professions.In the nineteenth century, religion played a less important role. It was replaced by theories about the differences between races and peoples. The idea that Jews belonged to a different people than the Germans, for instance, caught on. Even Jews who had converted to Christianity were still 'different' because of their bloodline.

Hitler is introduced to antisemitism

The origin of Hitler's hatred of Jews is not clear. In Mein Kampf, he described his development into an antisemite as the result of a long, personal struggle. Supposedly, his aversion to everything Jewish came to fruition when he was living and working as a painter in Vienna (1908-1913). Most historians believe that Hitler came up with this explanation in hindsight. He would have used it to assure people who were not yet convinced of his ideas that they would eventually see the light.One way or another, it is clear that Hitler came into contact with antisemitic ideas at an early age. To what extent he shared them at that point, is not certain. If he was prejudiced against Jews while living in Vienna, his prejudice had not yet crystallised into a clear worldview. After all, one of the most loyal buyers of his paintings in Vienna was a Jew, Samuel Morgenstern.

German nationalism and antisemitism

What we do know is that two Austrian politicians greatly influenced Hitler's thinking. The first, Georg Ritter von Schönerer (1842-1921), was a German nationalist. He believed that the German-speaking regions of Austria-Hungary should be added to the German empire. He also felt that Jews could never be fully-fledged German citizens. From the second, the Viennese mayor Karl Lueger (1844-1910), Hitler learned how antisemitism and social reforms could be successful. In Mein Kampf, Hitler praised Lueger as 'the greatest German mayor of all times'. When Hitler came to power in 1933, he put similar ideas into practice.

Jews as the scapegoats for the lost war

The German defeat was hard to swallow for many Germans, and for Hitler, too. In nationalist and right-wing conservative circles, the ‘stab-in-the-back legend’ became popular. According to this myth, Germany did not lose the war on the battlefield, but through betrayal at the home front. The Jews, Social Democrats, and Communists were held responsible. The prejudices about the role of the Jews in the war were false. An investigation carried out by the German Government proved as much. Over one hundred thousand German and Austrian Jews had fought for their fatherland. Otto Frank, who had fought in the Battle of the Somme in 1916, was just one of them.

Radicalisation of Hitler’s antisemitism

Against the backdrop of revolution and violence, Hitler's antisemitism was becoming increasingly radical. It is noteworthy that he said he did not support uncontrolled 'emotional' pogroms (outbursts of anti-Jewish violence). Instead, he argued for an ‘antisemitism of the mind'. It had to be legal and would ultimately lead to the 'removal' of the Jews .As early as August 1920, Hitler compared the Jews to germs. He stated that diseases cannot be controlled unless you destroy their causes. The influence of the Jews would never disappear without removing its cause, the Jew, from our midst, he said. These radical ideas paved the way for the mass murder of the Jews in the 1940s.

Archive_Reports

05-09-2019, 05:54 PM

Are movies equal to ancient mass religions?

Depends on how you feel about religion, I guess. Either way, you're twisting a message.

To be clear, I'm not a religious person, but I can also recognize the good it can do. If someone needs a little bit of religion to act as a moral compass, good for them for trying to better themselves. I know plenty of religious people that aren't bigoted, racist, or any other terrible thing. I know some on the other side as well, and those people suck. They would probably still suck without religion.

allegro

05-09-2019, 06:05 PM

By the way, as an interesting aside, here is a Vanity Fair article from September of 1990 (https://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2015/07/donald-ivana-trump-divorce-prenup-marie-brenner), which includes the following:

Donald Trump appears to take aspects of his German background seriously. John Walter works for the Trump Organization, and when he visits Donald in his office, Ivana told a friend, he clicks his heels and says, “Heil Hitler,” possibly as a family joke.

Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler’s speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.

“Did your cousin John give you the Hitler speeches?” I asked Trump.

Trump hesitated. “Who told you that?”

“I don’t remember,” I said.

“Actually, it was my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of Mein Kampf, and he’s a Jew.” (“I did give him a book about Hitler,” Marty Davis said. “But it was My New Order, Hitler’s speeches, not Mein Kampf. I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I’m not Jewish.”)

Later, Trump returned to this subject. “If I had these speeches, and I am not saying that I do, I would never read them.”

Is Ivana trying to convince her friends and lawyer that Trump is a crypto-Nazi? Trump is no reader or history buff. Perhaps his possession of Hitler’s speeches merely indicates an interest in Hitler’s genius at propaganda. The Führer often described his defeats at Stalingrad and in North Africa as great victories. Trump continues to endow his diminishing world with significance as well. “There’s nobody that has the cash flow that I have,” he told The Wall Street Journal long after he knew better. “I want to be king of cash.”

Mantra

05-09-2019, 06:23 PM

Depends on how you feel about religion, I guess. Either way, you're twisting a message.

Sure, and I get what you're saying, but it's a faulty comparison. The major religions of the world are all-encompassing belief systems which claim to explain the whole make up of the universe, and they give their believers an extensive set of values and principles to live their entire lives by. A movie is...a movie. The level of political power and mass influence is not even remotely comparable on any level.

Jaguar

05-09-2019, 10:05 PM

So, when people take bad things from religion, it has nothing to do with religion, but when people get good things out of it, it's entirely because of the power of religion?
Religions OFFER good things. It's their purpose.

Let's look for example at the idea of Jihad (I'm not a Muslim btw). Jihad means struggle. It refers to the spiritual struggle, the struggle against your own selfish inclinations, in order to become a Godly, righteous human being. And Islam offers the tools to fight that spiritual jihad: prayer and worship, study of wisdom, and instruction in right living. But there are those who have a character that is warped, and bring that warped character with them into Islam. They are easily convinced that Jihad refers to a physical warfare against infidels. And they go out and practice a heretical version of Islam.

BRoswell

05-09-2019, 11:24 PM

If someone needs a little bit of religion to act as a moral compass, good for them for trying to better themselves.

If a person finds comfort in religion, that's fine. If a person needs religion to act as a moral compass, then their morals are kind of fucked to begin with. Plus, religion has been used to justify terrible, immoral things for thousands of years. You can say that it's just people using religion the "wrong way", but a lot of those terrible, immoral things were embedded into those religions from the start.

katara

05-10-2019, 03:23 AM

Are movies equal to ancient mass religions?
I'd argue that massively overhyped franchise movies are, like Star Wars and the Marvelverse. TV perhaps even moreso (Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Star Trek, etc). There are also niche movies that are quite literally described as 'cult'. Jediism is now a faith practised today (albeit one with no structure... yet).

Then there are book series like Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, the latter of which may as well be a full-blown religion with the impact it had on the entertainment industry.

The cult of celebrity has been around for thousands of years, exacerbated now by tabloids and celeb magazines. Worship of idols like musicians, sports professionals, actors, and even nobodies famous for nothing but having money.
The cult of clickbait and outrage is getting stronger, driven on by the Internet breaking boundaries with platforms like Twitter allowing anyone to express their opinion. The more outrageous the opinion, the more outrageous the video, the more clicks they get.

Many people even treat the news as a religion, believing anything they're told. Just look at the political situation in the world today. People are driven by hard bias.

To be honest, any form of media can be seen as a religion.

"God is in the TV", indeed.

Jinsai

05-10-2019, 12:27 PM

I'm not calling an absolute here when it comes to anti-semitism, but Cat Mom makes a good point that it's less of a religious war from an opposing ideology than an example of a minority being assaulted.

Then again, anti-semitism is a confusing entity to unpack as a singular thing. You have, on one obvious front, the white supremecist/neo-nazis, and really, maybe we shouldn't consider nazis and white supremacists as separate things; it unnecessarily obfuscates things with a meaningless distinction.
This IS still, as far as a brand identity, aligned with Christianity. At least historically it was, and that's pinned forever to the identity, if only as a rallying point.

Then there's the muddy area where we get caught up in the distinction between Israel as a country where people live, or religious destiny, or oppressive movement; all depending on where you stand on this. Then there's the muddying element where it seems like every conspiracy theory I hear revolves somehow about "Jews doing nefarious stuff with the world's money," which is of course bullshit, but you gotta wonder who's seeding those ideas.

And then there is the elephant in the room, where the largest obvious divide is a land-struggle between theocracies, and to claim religion doesn't have a dog in that fight is, well... it's a common claim and that just makes it all more confusing.

allegro

05-10-2019, 12:54 PM

Then there's the muddy area where we get caught up in the distinction between Israel as a country where people live, or religious destiny, or oppressive movement; all depending on where you stand on this. Then there's the muddying element where it seems like every conspiracy theory I hear revolves somehow about "Jews doing nefarious stuff with the world's money," which is of course bullshit, but you gotta wonder who's seeding those ideas.

Like the Right and “George Soros (THE RICH JEW) is paying all the LIBERALS to go against TRUMP!” ?

Jinsai

05-10-2019, 12:56 PM

Like the Right and “George Soros (THE RICH JEW) is paying all the LIBERALS to go against TRUMP!” ?

That's definitely a manifestation of it. But then we look at how the alt-right has been openly courting aforementioned groups... it's a card they can play while the neocons can roll their eyes and play coy when they're called on for encouraging it.

allegro

05-10-2019, 01:08 PM

In 1985, I saw Claude Lanzmann's "Shoah" at the Detroit Institute of Arts upon its release, although I admit that I couldn't make it through all 9.5 hours (shown over two days), which made me feel bad considering the subject matter.

Please watch this video, below, from Siskel and Ebert.

There are scenes in this movie that I will NEVER forget, where citizens indicate that KNEW what was going on, and they did nothing BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CARE.

One scene I will NEVER forget: a Polish woman said she didn't care that Jews were being killed "Because the 'Jewesses' are stealing our husbands."

These kinds of beliefs are no different than thinking all Mexicans are rapist drug-dealing criminals, all Greeks commit sodomy or fuck their sheep, all Polish are dumb, all Russians are evil drunks.

This is the "dark side of human nature" that Gene Siskel speaks about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_rpQuF85Hs

allegro

05-10-2019, 01:15 PM

Jinsai, and of course, this; not because of his religion, but because he was loaning money and charging interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th7euZ30wDE

Jinsai

05-10-2019, 01:17 PM

yes, but wasn't the depiction of Shylock sold to an almost entirely Christian audience?

allegro

05-10-2019, 01:28 PM

Yes, they just happened to be Christians, but they were also white Anglo Saxons; Shakespeare was telling them that they were assholes.

That was MY thesis, anyway, proven by about 900 academic research sources. ;)

It was a CULTURAL reflection.

Just like how WASPs wouldn't allow Jews into their country clubs and the upper class for umpteen years, no matter HOW wealthy the Jews were ... NOT because of the "Protestant" thing but because of the White Anglo Saxon thing. Because they also wouldn't let in rich negro Christians.

Reading books like Edith Wharton's "House of Mirth" and Henry James' "Portrait of a Lady," holy shit, the rampant anti-Semitism, EVEN FROM THESE AUTHORS, is shockingly awful. It's not based on their Christianity; it's based on their upper-class exceptionalism.

That's definitely a manifestation of it. But then we look at how the alt-right has been openly courting aforementioned groups... it's a card they can play while the neocons can roll their eyes and play coy when they're called on for encouraging it.

The left has gone all kinds of stupid directions, too.

Case in point: People on the left called out Rep. Ilhan Omar for using anti Semitic tropes, including Chelsea Clinton. Later, Clinton and Omar report that they have a very pleasant and educational conversation about anti Semitism, about Islamic concerns, etc., and they agree to work together on common causes.

Then, a white nationalist, citing Donald Trump as "a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose," (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/zealand-mosques-attack-suspect-praised-trump-manifesto-190315100143150.html) shoots and kills a bunch of people in a Mosque in Christchurch New Zealand. The shooter's manifesto complains about things like "immigration and multiculturalism and decries the 'decaying' culture of the white, European, Western world."

Chelsea Clinton was invited to a memorial service for the victims of the Christchurch shooting.

At the memorial, a very pregnant Chelsea Clinton is confronted by an Islamic progressive "activist" who claims that Chelsea Clinton is personally responsible for the shooting in Christchurch.

https://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1106756729713254400

Jinsai

05-10-2019, 01:56 PM

yes, the left is getting stupid here too, and like a lot of these other issues and side-points we're addressing, it's partisan reactionary nonsense. What they put Omar through was just playing into the hands of people desperate to deepen a divide for a political win, and these dipshits gave it to them out of fear that they would upset their own base.

God I hate politics. I promise, if we vote Trump out, I'll just shut the fuck up about all of it and go back smiling to my cave.

allegro

05-10-2019, 02:03 PM

Heh, I'll be on my boatcave. ;)

sweeterthan

05-11-2019, 07:43 AM

The reactionary posts in this thread are because the original posters own words in the thread topic post. It’s full of opinion and double speak. They didn't just say I'm concerned about religious persecution. They said:

Even those who don't advocate violence get caught up in anti-religious rhetoric.
You are equating non violent, non religious people with terrorists. They’re not the same.

Clinton and Obama
k.

when did religion become such a wickedness? When did the world declare war on it? When did tolerance go out the window?
Religion has always been wicked. It's meant to control people so naturally, those who don't believe will reject it. Tolerance is still pretty wide spread despite increasing violence.

If our religion doesn't govern our lives, it's pretty impotent.
If your religion governs YOUR life, that's fine but the collective "we" ("our" in your post) doesn't need your religion to govern themselves. Religion is supposed to be personal. If it makes you a better person, good for you. But that is where it should end. It shouldn't be your religion’s goal to infiltrate our politics, our schools, or my body for your god to feel valid. Our country is founded on that principal but is frequently ignored because "in god we trust". My state just signed an anti-abortion law that can criminalize a woman for having a miscarriage. This is religious overreach. Science and medicine and history don't matter because some abstract idea in the bible.

allegro

05-11-2019, 11:37 AM

It shouldn't be your religion’s goal to infiltrate our politics, our schools, or my body for your god to feel valid. Our country is founded on that principal but is frequently ignored because "in god we trust". My state just signed an anti-abortion law that can criminalize a woman for having a miscarriage. This is religious overreach. Science and medicine and history don't matter because some abstract idea in the bible.

Technically, “In God We Trust” wasn’t added until the 1950s due to fear of Communism, and had nothing to do with our founding fathers. But I totally agree with the rest of the above post.

I come from the Olden Days of online discussion, Bulletin Boards. When an original post that was filled with goofy additional characters (it looks like the guy is thinking he needs to use vi editor [“w” = “write” and “wq” means “write quit”]) had conflicting info, we remembered that first posts in threads are intended to spark interesting - not combative - discussion, and we clarified the original poster’s actual intent of his direction of the thread. The Original Poster, in this instance, appeared to have originally intended post a thread about anti Semitism (since he’s Jewish, it’s even in his profile) and his fear of attacks, but he backed off being specific to Jews and tried to broaden it to be more, I dunno, appealing. He only muddied his waters and made some think he was Jerry Falwell. (Which isn’t possible since he’s a practicing, socially-liberal Jew.). The Original Poster posed no obvious threat. His post was provocative, but not particularly incendiary. I have 34 years of online experience; I see all of his posts as being genuine, caring posts.

Not liking religion is okay. Attacking INDIVIDUALS who practice the religion, in person or online, isn’t attacking the ideals of religion. Having a respectful discussion about why there has been such a huge increase in anti Semitism or bombing of black churches (there is verifiable data) should be possible. Forgiving a new Member for an inartful first post in a thread should be possible.

We live in a P.C. world where we have to be careful that hateful rhetoric can push mentally unstable people over the edge. It’s just the way it is.

There are things that cannot be said or posted ON THIS BOARD because unstable people practice NIN as a religion and Reznor is their God; Reznor has to keep his children out of photos and protect his wife from constant harassment from both female AND MALE stalkers who worship him beyond what is healthy.

Swykk

05-11-2019, 12:11 PM

For your consideration (re: intentions) https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/254-Life-in-general-does-it-suck-or-is-it-awesome?p=456149#post456149

Key words: Dennis Prager. Stop trying to cover and excuse for this guy while painting those of us in opposition as villains. We’re not.

So many red flags here. Many of you have accurately covered them. I thank you for doing so and couldn’t agree with you more.

Mantra

05-11-2019, 02:34 PM

Reading back over all this, it kind of bugs me that this thread has morphed into a debate about the value and merit of organized religion.

I deeply sympathize with the initial post in this thread, which was posted just four days after the synagogue shooting in Poway (note that Jaguar also lives in SoCal). It's a scary thing to be subjected to that kind of violent terrorism, and I think it's perfectly understandable for someone in the aftermath of that to ask "Why is this happening to us? What's the root of all this?" A lot of my students are Muslim and some of them still talk about the mosque bombing that happened here back in 2017 and how it still makes them feel nervous and scared every time they go to worship, because they feel like "What if today is the day?" I think non-religious people like myself may struggle a bit to fully empathize with that experience because we don't attend places of worship and maybe don't understand the feeling of being part of a group that is in the cross-hairs like that. For me personally, the best I can relate to it is by thinking about how I feel when I'm at school and wondering if the day will ever come that we have a shooter on campus. But even that's not the same thing, because people on college campuses are not being specifically targeted for their group identity in the same way that Muslims and Jews are specifically targeted for their race and religions. For them, their mere existence as a group of people is what makes them a target.

So it seems kind of distasteful to respond to someone in that situation by launching into an extended attack on the very notion of organized religion (something I myself somewhat participated in with that one big post I made a page or so back, which in hindsight seems dumb and in poor taste). This thread quickly turned into an indictment of religion itself, which almost seems like a kind of victim blaming. If one of my students was telling me about feeling nervous every time she goes to her Mosque, I think it would be pretty insensitive and uncaring for me to respond by talking about how awful religion is. I may personally have extremely mixed feelings about the role religion plays in our society, but this probably isn't the most appropriate moment to launch into that discussion. Sometimes you just gotta stand strong with people who are being attacked, even if you don't entirely agree with them on everything.

[edit: which is not to say that there haven't been a lot of really great posts in this thread, to be clear]

Swykk

05-12-2019, 08:53 AM

How many times do we need to cover this (and it HAS BEEN COVERED multiple times here)? Organized religion isn’t being attacked. The original post is entirely different than his subsequent posts in this thread. @sweeterthan (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=50) broke down some of the more problematic points just 3 posts above. Stop making this something it isn’t.

Jon

05-12-2019, 11:53 AM

Religion is supposed to be personal. If it makes you a better person, good for you. But that is where it should end. It shouldn't be your religion’s goal to infiltrate our politics, our schools, or my body for your god to feel valid.

There is a giant misunderstanding when it comes to "preaching the Gospel". The person or persons have to first have an interest in what you're "teaching". No one is truly interested in zealotry.

Jaguar

05-14-2019, 07:54 PM

Religion is supposed to be personal. If it makes you a better person, good for you. But that is where it should end. It shouldn't be your religion’s goal to infiltrate our politics, our schools, or my body for your god to feel valid. Our country is founded on that principal but is frequently ignored because "in god we trust". My state just signed an anti-abortion law that can criminalize a woman for having a miscarriage. This is religious overreach. Science and medicine and history don't matter because some abstract idea in the bible.
Your assertion that any bill passed in this country would criminalize a miscarriage shows how far your ridiculous bias goes.

Religion has never been personal. This claim is made by anti-theists to try to regulate religion out of the public square, to make it impotent. My Judaism informs my social policies, such a care for the poor, the sick, and the impovrish. It means I support religious freedom. It means I support the civil rights of different ethnicities, sexes, LGBT, religions, national origins, age, etc. It means that I'm an activist against violence and sexism against women not only here in my own country, but internationally, as well as the slave trade. It also means I care about the environment -- the effects of over population, such as mankind's contribution to climate change, the impending water shortage and food shortage, mass extinctions, etc. All of this is my religion in the public square.

Going on, because I'm a Jew, more than any other group I get singled out for Christian proselytizing activities. And at times it's irritating. But not enormously so. I'm actually much more bothered by people using profanity, because profanity is aggressive rudeness. Christians, however misled in their beliefs, are not being aggressive. They wish me no harm when they evangelize. In fact, they are in their own way being loving, trying to save me from hell, according to their religious beliefs. So what if they try to convert me???? It's not like they are forcing me. I can ignore them. I can walk away. I can argue back. I can respond in all sorts of different ways. The point is, they aren't persecuting me.

Modern democracies mean religious freedom, and freedom of speech. Get a thicker skin and be a little tolerant of the intolerant. After all, you are pretty doggone intolerant, and we tolerate you.

thelastdisciple

05-14-2019, 09:37 PM

Your assertion that any bill passed in this country would criminalize a miscarriage shows how far your ridiculous bias goes.

Oh?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/02/it-isnt-justice-for-purvi-patel-to-serve-20-years-in-prison-for-an-abortion

Anyways, it is awful any of this is happening.

Most recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQZKCLgBDww

BRoswell

05-14-2019, 10:35 PM

I'm actually much more bothered by people using profanity, because profanity is aggressive rudeness.

Sorry for swearing so fucking much.

allegro

05-14-2019, 10:47 PM

Technically (in law, all new legislation is later tested and modified by actual case law), none of the proposed or actual new abortion legislation prosecutes women; only the doctors are prosecuted.

HOWEVER, that’s up until the legislation is tested. The new laws are vague, so vague that they open the doors to an investigation into whether or not a woman’s miscarriage was self-induced and whether she, herself, acted as “doctor” (and could therefore be prosecuted).

All it takes is one new case to test the new law and the law is then modified. (Note that all criminal laws are modified by case law.)

The new abortion laws aren’t strictly based on Christian beliefs; they’re also heavily based on the right trying to maintain control of the white birth rate. Don’t be fooled by all this Jesus talk of morality in saving all the unborn babies. It’s BULLSHIT.

These people don’t want to save Central American children, they don’t give a rat’s ass about the 85,000 little babies and children who this Administration helped STARVE TO DEATH in Yemen (the number is rising), they support the death penalty, and they support the deaths that come along with the 2nd Amendment. They don’t give one single shit about child support, deadbeat dads, males who refuse to use condoms and not only impregnate females but spread sexually transmitted infections.

This is all about increasing the number of white babies, so Latinos won’t become the majority. Because Latinos are Catholic, they are religious, they don’t typically practice birth control, and they are having a lot of babies. This keeps these white nationalist Anglo Saxon Protestants up all night. This is also about maintenance of an agenda that attracts votes.

WorzelG

05-15-2019, 02:36 AM

Jon

05-15-2019, 07:18 AM

Your assertion that any bill passed in this country would criminalize a miscarriage shows how far your ridiculous bias goes.

Religion has never been personal. This claim is made by anti-theists to try to regulate religion out of the public square, to make it impotent. My Judaism informs my social policies, such a care for the poor, the sick, and the impovrish. It means I support religious freedom. It means I support the civil rights of different ethnicities, sexes, LGBT, religions, national origins, age, etc. It means that I'm an activist against violence and sexism against women not only here in my own country, but internationally, as well as the slave trade. It also means I care about the environment -- the effects of over population, such as mankind's contribution to climate change, the impending water shortage and food shortage, mass extinctions, etc. All of this is my religion in the public square.

Going on, because I'm a Jew, more than any other group I get singled out for Christian proselytizing activities. And at times it's irritating. But not enormously so. I'm actually much more bothered by people using profanity, because profanity is aggressive rudeness. Christians, however misled in their beliefs, are not being aggressive. They wish me no harm when they evangelize. In fact, they are in their own way being loving, trying to save me from hell, according to their religious beliefs. So what if they try to convert me???? It's not like they are forcing me. I can ignore them. I can walk away. I can argue back. I can respond in all sorts of different ways. The point is, they aren't persecuting me.

Modern democracies mean religious freedom, and freedom of speech. Get a thicker skin and be a little tolerant of the intolerant. After all, you are pretty doggone intolerant, and we tolerate you.

You do an awfully good job of building up yourself and your religion, while trying to tear down another religion and those that seemingly have none or don't care. Your Judaism does not make you special; if you believe in God, we are all His chosen children. We're also just dumb humans. The Bible is pretty explicit about judging others' beliefs (I know, not "your" Bible) and wasting time trying to understand the true nature of God.

Swykk

05-15-2019, 08:45 AM

You try really hard to build yourself up using your religion as justification for awful behavior, while trying to tear down another religion and those that seemingly have none or don't care. Your Judaism does not make you special; if you believe in God, we are all His chosen children. We're also just dumb humans. The Bible is pretty explicit about judging others' beliefs (I know, not "your" Bible) and wasting time trying to understand the true nature of God.

Did some editing. Hope you don’t mind.

sweeterthan

05-15-2019, 09:47 AM

Your assertion that any bill passed in this country would criminalize a miscarriage shows how far your ridiculous bias goes.

Is this a response? are you arguing a point? What am i ridiculously biased about? My state gave personhood to fetuses. Women could be charged with murder for making mistakes that they should not even be judged for. If you don't understand what these laws mean, you are definitely part of the problem. If you are the humanist you claim to be you would be prochoice.

Religion has never been personal. This claim is made by anti-theists to try to regulate religion out of the public square, to make it impotent. My Judaism informs my social policies, such a care for the poor, the sick, and the impovrish. It means I support religious freedom. It means I support the civil rights of different ethnicities, sexes, LGBT, religions, national origins, age, etc. It means that I'm an activist against violence and sexism against women not only here in my own country, but internationally, as well as the slave trade. It also means I care about the environment -- the effects of over population, such as mankind's contribution to climate change, the impending water shortage and food shortage, mass extinctions, etc. All of this is my religion in the public square.

Going on, because I'm a Jew, more than any other group I get singled out for Christian proselytizing activities. And at times it's irritating. But not enormously so. I'm actually much more bothered by people using profanity, because profanity is aggressive rudeness. Christians, however misled in their beliefs, are not being aggressive. They wish me no harm when they evangelize. In fact, they are in their own way being loving, trying to save me from hell, according to their religious beliefs. So what if they try to convert me???? It's not like they are forcing me. I can ignore them. I can walk away. I can argue back. I can respond in all sorts of different ways. The point is, they aren't persecuting me.

Modern democracies mean religious freedom, and freedom of speech. Get a thicker skin and be a little tolerant of the intolerant. After all, you are pretty doggone intolerant, and we tolerate you.

This thread has gone all kinds of places but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere meaningful. Originally i was going to merge the topic post into the general headlines thread because it seemed more of a comment but i left it after it started getting responses from members. A post was reported for being off topic. At first i agreed but then i re-read your words and understood what sparked these seemingly off topic responses. I pointed this out and instead of trying to clarify for the sake of discussion, you say I'm biased and intolerant. "Get a thicker skin" is your only response to anyone not courting your persecution complex. Maybe you should take your own advice before starting a discussion topic that you're not prepared to actually discuss.

Also way off topic but: if you think cursing is rude, you're in the wrong fucking place. this is a fucking nine inch nails board.

allegro

05-15-2019, 01:51 PM

This is an interesting story about the origins of the George Soros conspiracy which you hear from alt-right circles a lot

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hnsgrassegger/george-soros-conspiracy-finkelstein-birnbaum-orban-netanyahu

Holy crap (no pun intended), this is a great article, thanks!!

Jaguar

05-15-2019, 06:17 PM

You do an awfully good job of building up yourself and your religion, while trying to tear down another religion and those that seemingly have none or don't care. Your Judaism does not make you special; if you believe in God, we are all His chosen children. We're also just dumb humans. The Bible is pretty explicit about judging others' beliefs (I know, not "your" Bible) and wasting time trying to understand the true nature of God.
What religion am I tearing down? None. I only care that people act kindly towards each other. My complaint was that someone was trying to relegate religion to the privacy of one's home, as if living one's religion were a bad thing. I gave personal examples of living my religion to show how it wasn't a bad thing.

Jaguar

05-15-2019, 07:51 PM

This is an interesting story about the origins of the George Soros conspiracy which you hear from alt-right circles a lot

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hnsgrassegger/george-soros-conspiracy-finkelstein-birnbaum-orban-netanyahu
Read the whole article. All I can say is wow. I always had a gut feeling that the "George Soros is the root of all evil" stuff was just paranoia. Now I have the facts to back it up.

BRoswell

05-15-2019, 10:32 PM

My complaint was that someone was trying to relegate religion to the privacy of one's home, as if living one's religion were a bad thing.

I didn't say that people had to HIDE their religion. You misunderstood me when I described it as a private and personal thing. I meant that it was something that should be between yourself and your gods first and foremost. That connection should be more important than trying to influence politics or society, which is what religion is really about in my opinion. If it makes YOUR life better, fine, but don't try to fit everyone else into the box that you're comfortable in. Every religion seems focused on gaining followers and territory and power over others. It's about being "little gods", if you will. It attracts narcissistic people who want to feel like they're special despite the fact that most religions are based on the same things. If it was about something more than that, people wouldn't buy into a lot of what religions are selling. It would be something that grows and evolves as a deeper understanding is reached. Instead, most religions seem to be stuck in the Stone Age and are content to not ask questions or be curious and to act simply on what they think is "faith", but is really brand loyalty.

Jinsai

05-16-2019, 12:39 AM

And here’s where we can see the predictable conclusion of this... in a modern sense, yes, keep your religion in the privacy of your own home/self. Get the fuck out of mine. Let me live my life in some peace and stay out of politics and my life

RIGHT NOW, as in at this very moment in this country, we're seeing women's reproductive rights being assaulted in the name of religion.

This is tone deaf to be having this conversation at this moment without acknowledging that the jurisdiction of your religion doesn't begin and end with where you feel it's convenient.

Exocet

05-16-2019, 02:23 AM

America seems to think Israel is more important than its own population, it spends more on Israel than any other country, no other country is as revered in the American government than Israel.
weird because it has a smaller population than New York and London.

Substance242

05-16-2019, 03:21 AM

I say, "I just believe in one less God than you", so... let's listen to NIN or something. :-)

allegro

05-16-2019, 11:59 PM

RIGHT NOW, as in at this very moment in this country, we're seeing women's reproductive rights being assaulted in the name of religion.

It’s interesting that abortion is not only LEGAL in Israel, it’s FREE.

See this: U.S. Births Fell To A 32-Year Low In 2018; CDC Says Birthrate Is In Record Slump (https://www.npr.org/2019/05/15/723518379/u-s-births-fell-to-a-32-year-low-in-2018-cdc-says-birthrate-is-at-record-level)

From 2017 to 2018, the number of births fell 1% for Hispanic women and 2% for non-Hispanic white and non-Hispanic black women. The rate fell by 3% for women who are identified as non-Hispanic Asian and non-Hispanic AIAN (American Indian & Alaska Native).

See this article: The Racist Roots of the Pro Life Movement (https://bellejar.ca/2012/10/02/the-racist-roots-of-the-pro-life-movement/)

What, exactly, is race suicide, you might ask? I’ll just let my old friend Teddy Roosevelt explain it to you:

” …if the average family in which there are children contained but two children the nation as a whole would decrease in population so rapidly that in two or three generations it would very deservedly be on the point of extinction, so that the people who had acted on this base and selfish doctrine would be giving place to others with braver and more robust ideals. Nor would such a result be in any way regrettable; for a race that practised such doctrine–that is, a race that practised race suicide–would thereby conclusively show that it was unfit to exist, and that it had better give place to people who had not forgotten the primary laws of their being.”

(On American Motherhood, by Theodore Roosevelt, 1905)

That’s right – race suicide is the idea that white people will become “extinct” if they don’t have enough babies.

This fear, that people of colour would out-baby us, is where we find the actual origins of the pro-life movement. It didn’t come out of the idea that abortion was a sin, or the dogma of be fruitful and multiply, but rather the panicked notion that white people might not run the world anymore.

Jinsai

05-17-2019, 12:04 AM

allegro

05-17-2019, 12:19 AM

it's just a crazy thing... I know this is off topic but maybe there's an aspect to this, because regardless of the factors influencing this shift towards bringing abortion before the Supreme Court, the numbers when it comes to voters is resonating with religious "values."

I just saw a woman on FB posting in response to this Alabama abortion law... and her response? "OK, but how many women are raped in Alabama, and how many of those rapes result in pregnancy?" Yes, a woman posted this.

And the background profile for her FB page is a cross and an American flag.

These people are fed a constant torrent of bad information. It’s also because they support the patriarchy. Like this asshole in my Twitter feed:

490

These are the actual stats:

https://www.guttmacher.org/sites/default/files/images/whenwomenhaveabortionsgraph_0.png

allegro

05-17-2019, 12:23 AM

This is a FUCKING FOX NEWS POLL from 2/20/19:

Voters split on abortion, but majority wants Roe v. Wade to endure (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-voters-split-on-abortion-but-majority-wants-roe-v-wade-to-endure)

489

EDIT: Oh hey LOOK AT THOS LOL!! (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/anti-abortion-rep-tim-murphy-asked-mistress-terminate/story?id=50274843)

allegro

05-17-2019, 12:43 PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxi5wzmPRA

allegro

05-17-2019, 01:10 PM

Here’s a really good article: 5 Things The New York Times Got Wrong About Anti-Semitism (https://www.ajc.org/news/5-things-the-new-york-times-got-wrong-about-anti-semitism)

The article points out that the majority of anti-Semitic acts carried out in Europe were committed by jihadists. Further, it points out that (left) “British Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn has publicly and privately linked himself with Hamas and Hezbollah, two anti-Semitic terrorist organizations.” It also points out certain levels of victim-blaming when it comes to Netanyahu, as well as statistics that the Times piece ignored. Finally, it points out actions being taken to combat anti-Semitism that the Times piece didn’t point out. Even without the Times piece as a reference, this article stands alone.

Jaguar

05-19-2019, 09:08 AM

I didn't say that people had to HIDE their religion. You misunderstood me when I described it as a private and personal thing. I meant that it was something that should be between yourself and your gods first and foremost. That connection should be more important than trying to influence politics or society, which is what religion is really about in my opinion. If it makes YOUR life better, fine, but don't try to fit everyone else into the box that you're comfortable in. Every religion seems focused on gaining followers and territory and power over others. It's about being "little gods", if you will. It attracts narcissistic people who want to feel like they're special despite the fact that most religions are based on the same things. If it was about something more than that, people wouldn't buy into a lot of what religions are selling. It would be something that grows and evolves as a deeper understanding is reached. Instead, most religions seem to be stuck in the Stone Age and are content to not ask questions or be curious and to act simply on what they think is "faith", but is really brand loyalty.
thank you for your answer.

I think you are painting religion with a pretty broad brush. different religions score differently on your scales of assessment. Judaism, for example, is entirely uninterested in converting anyone. Sure we get converts, but I'm not sure why. We're not interested in world domination or exerting mind control or in gaining a fortune. However, switching to your other scale, the essence of Judaism is right action. Our foundational stories speak of God giving us responsibilities to each other, to love our neighbor as ourselves, 613 of them. Don't steal. Don't murder. Don't commit perjury. Etc. From its inception, our religion was acted out in a very public manner--creating an ideal community. If we stop trying to fix the world, we might as well close up shop.

I DO understand what you are saying. Like, it would NOT be cool to try to establish Jewish law as US law. That's not what I'm advocating. I'm saying that the ethics and values that each of us brings from our religions should and do inform our politics, civics, and business ethics.

Jinsai

05-19-2019, 11:07 AM

Our foundational stories speak of God giving us responsibilities to each other, to love our neighbor as ourselves, 613 of them. Don't steal. Don't murder. Don't commit perjury. Etc. From its inception, our religion was acted out in a very public manner--creating an ideal community.

Don’t neuter your pets, don’t have homosexual sex, don’t put cheese on meat, don’t cross-dress, don’t wear clothes that mix wool and linen, don’t suffer a witch to live... many of the 613 mitzvah are ridiculous, some damaging... and I still won’t get why there’s tons of laws prohibiting specific forms of incest, but none generally protecting children or condemning sexual assault in large

At least we know not to eat lobster...

allegro

05-19-2019, 11:23 AM

I'm saying that the ethics and values that each of us brings from our religions should and do inform our politics, civics, and business ethics.

These things are informed by higher education, upbringing, and experience.

I respect that your relationship with your religion motivates you to do good toward society and the less privileged, those without a voice, etc.

But, from a philosophical standpoint, I believe this motivation comes more from the collective experience of suffering that Jews have experienced for thousands of years, vs. the mitzvahs.

Space Suicide

05-19-2019, 11:41 AM

I hate christianity's death grip on the United States. This recent crop of abortion bullshit is a prime example of how toxic and idiotic it is to dictating decisions.

allegro

05-19-2019, 06:06 PM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgui6YO_nLo

Jaguar

05-21-2019, 05:54 PM

Don’t neuter your pets, don’t have homosexual sex, don’t put cheese on meat, don’t cross-dress, don’t wear clothes that mix wool and linen, don’t suffer a witch to live... many of the 613 mitzvah are ridiculous, some damaging... and I still won’t get why there’s tons of laws prohibiting specific forms of incest, but none generally protecting children or condemning sexual assault in large

At least we know not to eat lobster...
Actually you can eat lobster and ham to your heart's content. The prohibitions apply only to Jews and there is no need to become a Jew.

If you think Judaism doesn't prohibit rape and child molestation, you are dead wrong. Call your local rabbi and have a good talk.

Jaguar

05-21-2019, 06:05 PM

These things are informed by higher education, upbringing, and experience.

I respect that your relationship with your religion motivates you to do good toward society and the less privileged, those without a voice, etc.

But, from a philosophical standpoint, I believe this motivation comes more from the collective experience of suffering that Jews have experienced for thousands of years, vs. the mitzvahs.Are our ethics influenced by our experience? Yes and rightly so.

Certainly you are correct that the suffering of Jews through the millennia plays an important role, perhaps as important a role, as Torah.

By our upbringing? Yes, and not always a good thing. It usually depends on whether our parents have come from families that honor religious mores. At one time, all of our society honored religious mores, except for criminal types and big jerks.

By our education? I would say NO, unless we have taken courses in ethics. Most have not. Knowing about plate tectonics, or what sonata allegro form is, or the line of species from lower primates to modern man does not teach ethical values. Much in art and literature teaches many different and confusing approaches to ethics. What is one supposed to choose?

Jinsai

05-21-2019, 06:24 PM

Actually you can eat lobster and ham to your heart's content. The prohibitions apply only to Jews and there is no need to become a Jew.

If you think Judaism doesn't prohibit rape and child molestation, you are dead wrong. Call your local rabbi and have a good talk.

OH JESUS. I'm sure a Rabbi will tell me it's a bad thing to do, and what kind of a fucked up rabbi would say otherwise? It's just that there's no mitzvah for it, but there's a ton of laws about specific relatives you shouldn't fuck. These commandments were supposedly given to people from GOD. Of course I don't care and it doesn't apply to me because I don't believe it, but that's a silly way to say "no, these rules are fine to break if you're a gentile." Tell that to women before they were lit on fire for being witches, or tell a gay person that this part of the holy book hasn't been used to justify oppressing homosexuals, or that the parts about how to handle your slaves weren't cherry picked by slave owners to justify owning slaves.

But when you're pitching the "613 laws" you didn't highlight the ones about how gay people are bad... no, you chose to mention stuff like "don't murder." I wonder why.

Demogorgon

05-21-2019, 06:24 PM

At one time, all of our society honored religious mores, except for criminal types and big jerks.

There have been atheists throughout history in large numbers far, far more often than you seem to think. Religious folks being in the majority doesn't translate to "all of our society", and in fact there are many documented cases of powerful and influential figures paying massive amounts of religious lip service but not believing a word of it at all behind the curtains. And many criminal organizations are notoriously religious. Classic Italian Mafia members are/were fanatically Catholic. You can fall back on the old "oh but they weren't REAL Catholics then" but if you asked them, they believed 100% with out exaggeration that their faith was real and strong.

allegro

05-21-2019, 08:02 PM

And many criminal organizations are notoriously religious. Classic Italian Mafia members are/were fanatically Catholic. You can fall back on the old "oh but they weren't REAL Catholics then" but if you asked them, they believed 100% with out exaggeration that their faith was real and strong.

Well, technically, Catholics believe in the forgiveness of sin. Even murderers can be forgiven of their sins, hence why the Popes are against the death penalty and nuns go sit and pray with people on death row.

But what instantly jumped into my mind when I read your (above post) was this scene in The Godfather :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kHbQr6Xsy8U

allegro

05-21-2019, 08:21 PM

By our education? I would say NO, unless we have taken courses in ethics. Most have not. Knowing about plate tectonics, or what sonata allegro form is, or the line of species from lower primates to modern man does not teach ethical values. Much in art and literature teaches many different and confusing approaches to ethics. What is one supposed to choose?
You said “ethics and values,” and I said “higher education” (e.g. college).

I’m not talking the level of ethics that I was taught in graduate-level paralegal school. I’m not even talking specific ethics classes.

I’m saying that ethics are taught by way of expectations of students, disciplinary actions shown when necessary, hard work rewarded; it’s all teaching students that slacking will no longer be accepted, the difference between right and wrong, that good behavior is rewarded, that hard work is rewarding, etc.

Also, most current Gen Eds require second level English, which includes Composition, which includes Rhetoric, which includes a whole week (minimum) studying Ethos (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethos), Logos and Pathos.

Regarding teaching different approaches to ethics: It’s interesting that you imply this as being negative. I received my B.A. in English Literature and Communication (I minored in Art) from a private liberal arts college (https://www.elmhurst.edu/) in the Chicago area that’s operated by the United Church of Christ. It was founded in 1871 as a theological seminary. It’s primary claim to fame is being Alma Mater to Reinhold Niebuhr (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhold_Niebuhr). The institution’s focus is providing a good, well-rounded education, to promote and encourage free-thinking and exploration; different approaches to ethics is a plus, not a minus. Both literary theory and art history are critical lenses through which we view society and culture.

My Alma Mater’s mission statement:

Elmhurst College inspires intellectual and personal growth in our students, preparing them for meaningful and ethical contributions to a diverse, global society.

We promote intellectual freedom, curiosity and engagement; critical and creative inquiry; rigorous debate; innovative thinking and integrity in all endeavors. We ignite a passion for learning.

allegro

05-21-2019, 09:23 PM

Speaking of Reinhold Niebuhr:

For a little while, former F.B.I. Director James Comey was on Twitter as “Reinhold Niebuhr“ but finally outed his real identity after he released his book.

The entry to Comey’s book is a Niebuhr quote:

“Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.”

Edit: Everyone else probably knows Niebuhr’s “Serenity Prayer. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer)”

elevenism

05-21-2019, 10:47 PM

I liked where this thread started, what with the increasing attacks on places of worship.

Jaguar

05-22-2019, 11:40 AM

OH JESUS. I'm sure a Rabbi will tell me it's a bad thing to do, and what kind of a fucked up rabbi would say otherwise? It's just that there's no mitzvah for it, but there's a ton of laws about specific relatives you shouldn't fuck. These commandments were supposedly given to people from GOD. Of course I don't care and it doesn't apply to me because I don't believe it, but that's a silly way to say "no, these rules are fine to break if you're a gentile."
Hi Jinsai, good to see you again. Thanks for writing back.

No, the laws weren't given "to people." They were given to Israel alone. "And the LORD said, speak to the Children of Israel saying..."

Those Jews who articulate laws that Gentiles are to follow (the Orthodox) specify the seven Noahide laws, which do NOT include the prohibition of unclean animals, kosher slaughter, or separation of meat and dairy OR the keeping of the Shabbat, among many other things. The seven Noahide laws include seven categories:

Do not profane G‑d’s Oneness in any way.

1. Acknowledge that there is a single G‑d who cares about what we are doing and desires that we take care of His world.

2. Do not curse your Creator.
No matter how angry you may be, do not take it out verbally against your Creator.

3. Do not murder.
The value of human life cannot be measured. To destroy a single human life is to destroy the entire world—because, for that person, the world has ceased to exist. It follows that by sustaining a single human life, you are sustaining an entire universe.

4. Do not eat a limb of a living animal.

Respect the life of all G‑d’s creatures. As intelligent beings, we have a duty not to cause undue pain to other creatures.

5. Do not steal.
Whatever benefits you receive in this world, make sure that none of them are at the unfair expense of someone else.

6. Harness and channel the human libido.
Incest, adultery, rape and homosexual relations are forbidden. The family unit is the foundation of human society. Sexuality is the fountain of life and so nothing is more holy than the sexual act. So, too, when abused, nothing can be more debasing and destructive to the human being.

7. Establish courts of law and ensure justice in our world.
With every small act of justice, we are restoring harmony to our world, synchronizing it with a supernal order. That is why we must keep the laws established by our government for the country’s stability and harmony. This would include the prosecution of things like assault, larceny, etc.

You are correct that there is no mitzvah in a Gentile keeping kosher or observing the Shabbat, etc. But similarly it IS NOT WRONG for them to eat lobster or mow their lawn on Saturday.

Of course, on the flip side, should they voluntarily wish to keep kosher or observe the Shabbat, and by doing so draw near to Israel, more power to them. And of course, if they wish to become a Jew and take upon themselves the obligation to the 613, we would welcome them into the tribe.