Harvey Weinstein

[Boots]

I didn't see a thread, so I made one. The sordid details of how Harvey Weinstein used his position of power to sexually harass women in Hollywood are becoming more graphic every day. It was also revealed that Matt Damon may have played a part in quashing a NY Times article about Weinstein in 2004. His buddy Ben Affleck just recently wrote a Facebook entry to condemn Weinstein's behavior. Shortly after Affleck posted the entry, some twitter users reminded him that he groped Hilarie Burton in 2003 on the set of Total Request Live. In the past, he has also defended his brother Casey who was the subject of widespread sexual assault allegations. Actors such as Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie and Rose McGowan have come forward with their own shocking stories of what it was like to work with Weinstein. This has been on my mind a lot because I experienced something similar in my own life.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/entertainment/harvey-weinstein-london-nyc-police-investigation/index.html

[thevoid99]

I wasn't surprised by this considering how many stories I've heard about him as a bully. I'm just surprised that it had been hidden for so long and I'm glad it's coming out. I really hope he dies penniless. Not just for what he did to women but also for abusing his power in the industry. Guillermo del Toro recently talked about working with Weinstein on Mimic which nearly made del Toro quit filmmaking: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/10/guillermo-del-toro-harvey-weinstein-mimic-horrible-experience-1201886601/

This is just one of many stories of the notorious Harvey Scissorhands as he's been involved in trying to get films re-cut with Wong Kar-Wai's The Grandmaster being the most recent to my knowledge as I saw the re-cut version which is an abomination though I was glad to watch the 130-minute Chinese cut of the film which is a must-see.

There is also the legendary story relating to All the Pretty Horses directed by Billy Bob Thornton and starring Matt Damon, Penelope Cruz, and Henry Thomas. Weinstein is known for being very petty as he was upset over the fact that Thornton was able to get his way over the length of Sling Blade as Thornton was hoping All the Pretty Horses was going to be something special. Well, it had a cut over three hours with a score by Daniel Lanois and Weinstein got his revenge by having the film cut to around two hours and have Lanois' score replaced by music from Marty Stuart and a couple of other composers. It nearly destroyed Thornton who never worked with Weinstein ever again.

The one person I've noticed that hasn't said anything is Quentin Tarantino who is known for working with Weinstein and had released all of his films with Weinstein's help. He's been silent. I wonder what he has to say. The only people I know that have defended Weinstein are Donna Karan, Lindsay Lohan, and Geraldo Rivera. Talk about scumbags.

On a somewhat related note, here is a video from Evan Rachel Wood who talked about the whole Weinstein thing and her own experiences with sexual abuse:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kksbLCncAxM&t=0s

[Boots]

Thanks for sharing that void99. After I posted this thread, I found a comment about Weinstein in the Random Celebrity Headlines thread in the Headlines forum. I probably should've posted in there instead of creating a new thread. I just joined this forum less than 6 months ago. I can't call myself a regular member and I don't post as often as I should. I've been really occupied by my job since the end of August when my workload doubled.

[allegro]

I follow Asia Argento, Tony Bourdain, Rose McGowan and Ronan Farrow on Twitter. This is crazy how it’s been covered up for this long, because HW held so much power. But, this shit happens to women in all kinds of jobs, all the time, it’s been happening forever. I just hope we can all band together to get it to stop. It’s happened to my Mom at work, it’s happened to me at work, it’s happened to lots of my girlfriends at work, it is just far too damned common. And the AUDACITY of HW doing this to girls whose parents were well-known in Hollywood just shows what a fucking sick asshole he is. He should burn in Hell.

Tomorrow is #WomenBoycottTwitter day (Twitter suspended Rose McGowan’s Twitter account for 12 hours.). Fuck them.

[thevoid99]

I follow Asia Argento, Tony Bourdain, Rose McGowan and Ronan Farrow on Twitter. This is crazy how it’s been covered up for this long, because HW held so much power. But, this shit happens to women in all kinds of jobs, all the time, it’s been happening forever. I just hope we can all band together to get it to stop. It’s happened to my Mom at work, it’s happened to me at work, it’s happened to lots of my girlfriends at work, it is just far too damned common. And the AUDACITY of HW doing this to girls whose parents were well-known in Hollywood just shows what a fucking sick asshole he is. He should burn in Hell.

Tomorrow is #WomenBoycottTwitter day (Twitter suspended Rose McGowan’s Twitter account for 12 hours.). Fuck them.

That shit is wrong. Just because she is speaking out over something bad that happened to her yet they still air the bullshit that GWOTUS puts out. Fuck that bullshit.

[allegro]

The Mew York Post did a thing on Page Six demeaning one of Weinstein’s victims. FOAD, NY Post.

Rose McGowan tweeted that we should give Lindsey Lohan some slack because Hollywood fucks with young girl’s heads.

[allegro]

Ugh it just keeps getting worse:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/british-actress-sophie-dix-speaks-harvey-weinstein-harassment-1048337

Weinstein’s wife has now left him, too.

[thevoid99]

The Mew York Post did a thing on Page Six demeaning one of Weinstein’s victims. FOAD, NY Post.

Rose McGowan tweeted that we should give Lindsey Lohan some slack because Hollywood fucks with young girl’s heads.

Actually, Lohan has been acting like a contrarian lately for attention.

[Haysey_Draws]

This whole thing should be a wake up call, not just for his actions but everyone who has been freely exploiting it. Question is, will it?

These scandals appear every few years now, crucifying the culprit (and rightly so) but it just keeps happening!

I remember thinking back to the 90's and 00's. I'd joke on bad actors "Who'd they have to sleep with to get this job". Turns out it was HW (and mostly likely others), and not just bad ones, probably against their will (which probably could account for said bad performance).

Fuck anyone that does this.

[Haysey_Draws]

The one person I've noticed that hasn't said anything is Quentin Tarantino who is known for working with Weinstein and had released all of his films with Weinstein's help. He's been silent. I wonder what he has to say.

Consider the Silence broken...

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/oct/13/quentin-tarantino-harvey-weinstein-allegations

Also turns out James Woods is a bit of a creep too...

[allegro]

Oh my God, Weinstein is so fucked up, this is all getting worse and worse:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_59d7ea3de4b046f5ad984211

[eversonpoe]

Oh my God, Weinstein is so fucked up, this is all getting worse and worse:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_59d7ea3de4b046f5ad984211

what a fucking piece of shit.

[botley]

After I posted this thread, I found a comment about Weinstein in the Random Celebrity Headlines thread in the Headlines forum. I probably should've posted in there instead of creating a new thread. I just joined this forum less than 6 months ago. I can't call myself a regular member and I don't post as often as I should. I've been really occupied by my job since the end of August when my workload doubled.
No need to worry, I certainly think this thread is an appropriate place to discuss this issue, but if the mods disagree, it will be moved.

I'm really upset that men in positions of power continue to enjoy this cone of silence when they abuse women. Not just in Hollywood, certainly, although the "casting couch" cliche exists there for a reason. It's unacceptable, and we owe a debt of thanks to the women who come forward when the silence finally breaks.

[onthewall2983]

I knew the guy was creepy after seeing him on television for a couple minutes back in 1999. The only shock I have coming out of this is just how exactly right I was back then.

FWIW, I don't mind there's a thread about this, but would rather see it in the "Headlines" section.

[aggroculture]

He's a rapist now, more than he is a film producer, so I welcome this thread being moved to the news forum.

Also, he should go to jail: he's a danger to others.

[allegro]

Calling sweeterthan :)

[allegro]

Not just in Hollywood, certainly
No, certainly not, sexual harassment is and has been an epidemic for a long long time.

It branches into sexual assault or demands for sexual favors FAR more than people realize.

[sweeterthan]

Calling sweeterthan :)

I'm out right now but I'll move this when I get to a computer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cashpiles (closed)]

pick up artists (PUAs) teach men that they should continue to escalate until a woman says no.. if the woman doesn't say no, keep going... also they say even if a woman says no..you can try again to escalate later.

This reminds me of the Weinstein situation

[Boots]

I just unliked Ben's FB page. Not only did he grope Hilarie Burton, he was also inappropriate with a female reporter. I bet Jen is glad she divorced him. He also had problems with gambling and alcohol abuse.

[sweeterthan]

I just unliked Ben's FB page. Not only did he grope Hilarie Burton, he was also inappropriate with a female reporter. I bet Jen is glad she divorced him. He also had problems with gambling and alcohol abuse.

His public apology on twitter is interesting. I don't think a twitter apology solves the situation but it is almost unbelievable to see a celebrity account take responsibility so immediately. Is there a precedent for this? I've been obsessing over it for two days. Is it because he can't hide it? Or because he's a grown up now and realizes his mistake?

I guess the affleck twitter apology makes me hopeful that this awful tide is turning, even with president pussy grabber in office.

As for Weinstein, I'm surprised at the number of women who say "why didn't these women speak up sooner?" I feel like every woman should know that aggressors don't even have to be rich and powerful to get away with misogyny. It happens at every class level because it's been the normal for so long.

[onthewall2983]

Amazon just cancelled the David O. Russell (another Hollywood sweetheart) show in light of this news as it was a co-production with TWC.

[allegro]

as for weinstein, i'm surprised at the number of women who say "why didn't these women speak up sooner?" i feel like every woman should know that aggressors don't even have to be rich and powerful to get away with misogyny. It happens at every class level because it's been the normal for so long.

AMEN to this.

[botley]

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/i-was-a-victim-of-harvey-weinstein-but-we-have-to-focus-on-the-future/article36584019/

[thenorthwood]

As for Weinstein, I'm surprised at the number of women who say "why didn't these women speak up sooner?" I feel like every woman should know that aggressors don't even have to be rich and powerful to get away with misogyny. It happens at every class level because it's been the normal for so long.

Absolutely. Sexual assault and harassment can also be sneaky and escalate over time and not as blatant as Weinstein’s actions. I can think of two instances in my late teens and early 20’s, one at work where my manager became increasingly inappropriate and suggestive in comments and behavior. Another instance involved a massage that went way too far from my friend’s boyfriend’s father while my friend was in the same room! Sometimes as it happens you are just frozen in place from shock. It was mostly in retrospect that I realized how fucked up these situations became.

Why these women didn’t speak up sooner is irrelevant to Weinstein’s abhorrent actions, and I am also suprised at the number of people/women that are asking that question.

[marodi]

His brother Bob isn't holding back:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bob-weinstein-gets-emotional-depraved-harvey-saving-company-his-waking-nightmare-1048905

[allegro]

His brother Bob isn't holding back:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bob-weinstein-gets-emotional-depraved-harvey-saving-company-his-waking-nightmare-1048905

Bob was delivering girls to Harvey (https://twitter.com/aleximelvin/status/919290441165553665)

https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/status/919316326480453632

Kate Beckinsale says HW sexually harassed her when she was 17 (https://instagram.com/p/BaJiAhyn7Y5/)

Our fearless leader, Rose McGowan, isn’t letting any of these men off the hook. (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-rose-mcgowan-harvey-weinstein-20171013-story.html)

#ROSEARMY

[allegro]

Courtney Love gave a warning in 2005.

(http://www.tmz.com/2017/10/14/courtney-love-harvey-weinstein-2005-warns-actresses-sexual-harassment/)

[thevoid99]

Courtney Love gave a warning in 2005.

(http://www.tmz.com/2017/10/14/courtney-love-harvey-weinstein-2005-warns-actresses-sexual-harassment/)

Wow, one of those times when we needed to listen to her.

There was also this story during the production of Brideshead Revisited starring Matthew Goode, Ben Whishaw, Hayley Atwell, and Emma Thompson where there was a lunch break as Harvey was on the set visiting and he was appalled over Hayley Atwell's figure as she was eating lunch. He called her a fat pig. Emma Thompson found out and tore Harvey a new asshole and threatened to quit the production if he didn't apologize to Atwell. I fucking love Emma Thompson.

[WorzelG]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/did-rejecting-harvey-weinsteins-sinister-advances-shut-career/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

[sweeterthan]

I just tried to read Mayim bialik's op ed and I can barely see straight. What's wrong with her? What is the point of her piece? I don't get it at all.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/mayim-bialik-feminist-harvey-weinstein.html?referer=http://m.facebook.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tremolo]

Absolutely. Sexual assault and harassment can also be sneaky and escalate over time and not as blatant as Weinstein’s actions. I can think of two instances in my late teens and early 20’s, one at work where my manager became increasingly inappropriate and suggestive in comments and behavior. Another instance involved a massage that went way too far from my friend’s boyfriend’s father while my friend was in the same room! Sometimes as it happens you are just frozen in place from shock. It was mostly in retrospect that I realized how fucked up these situations became.

Why these women didn’t speak up sooner is irrelevant to Weinstein’s abhorrent actions, and I am also suprised at the number of people/women that are asking that question.

Why so surprised at people asking that question?

It's not a matter of how relevant it is to this scumbag's actions, but to someone who hasn't been in that situation it doesn't make sense.

What I don't get is why are we all expected to react in the same way and show nothing but 100% sympathy, without being allowed to wonder and ask questions, not even with the purpose of putting the victims word in doubt, but just because some people don't get it.

Myself, yeah, I don't get why they didn't speak out sooner. I get the fear factor (he's powerful in the industry, not being able to get a job after this, etc). I do understand that right in the moment it is a different story, but at some point one must ponder what is more important. Besides, it was those long years of silence that made it possible for him to continue doing the same shit to who knows how many more people. Silence is an accomplice.

And no, this doesn't mean I blame the victims, and it doesn't mean that the guy's actions were not as bad. This is just horrible, and I really hope that if anything comes out of this, is that victims of any kind of abuse find the courage to speak out.

[tremolo]

I just tried to read Mayim bialik's op ed and I can barely see straight. What's wrong with her? What is the point of her piece? I don't get it at all.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/mayim-bialik-feminist-harvey-weinstein.html?referer=http://m.facebook.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The point is making this about herself.

[botley]

Pig in power stays in power https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/kendalltaggart/watching-harvey-weinstein-fall-trumps-accusers-feel

[allegro]

I just tried to read Mayim bialik's op ed and I can barely see straight. What's wrong with her? What is the point of her piece? I don't get it at all.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/mayim-bialik-feminist-harvey-weinstein.html?referer=http://m.facebook.com


She’s saying that Harvey Weinstein is an exhibited symptom, not the disease. The disease is our entire culture; Hollywood feeds the culture what it wants; Hollywood doesn’t drive or create the culture; Hollywood has been a giant mirror of our culture, a magnification of our worst aspects; a guy like Weinstein isn't preying on the ugly girls; there is no shortage of pretty girls in Hollywood (what "America wants") but it's not a real world; Hollywood itself is promoting and protecting predators in the interest of profit. Putting HW in charge in Hollywood is like a pedo in charge at a Catholic grade school.

See also this prior post: http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/4688-Harvey-Weinstein?p=380953#post380953

Bialik says:

I believe that we can change our culture, but it won’t be something that happens overnight. We live in a society that has treated women as disposable playmates for far longer than Mr. Weinstein has been meeting ingénues in luxury hotel rooms.

One major bright spot: We are seeing more women taking on prominent roles behind the camera. Women like Jenji Kohan and Jill Soloway are showing the kinds of female characters on their shows that we all know in real life but never got to see on TV. And more women and men are waking up to the fact that it is on us all to sound the alarm on unacceptable behavior.

Trump said "when you're a star, you can do whatever you want and they let you."

Due to FEAR of power and money. Not always due to reverence.

[allegro]

Why so surprised at people asking that question?

It's not a matter of how relevant it is to this scumbag's actions, but to someone who hasn't been in that situation it doesn't make sense.

What I don't get is why are we all expected to react in the same way and show nothing but 100% sympathy, without being allowed to wonder and ask questions, not even with the purpose of putting the victims word in doubt, but just because some people don't get it.

Myself, yeah, I don't get why they didn't speak out sooner. I get the fear factor (he's powerful in the industry, not being able to get a job after this, etc). I do understand that right in the moment it is a different story, but at some point one must ponder what is more important. Besides, it was those long years of silence that made it possible for him to continue doing the same shit to who knows how many more people. Silence is an accomplice.

And no, this doesn't mean I blame the victims, and it doesn't mean that the guy's actions were not as bad. This is just horrible, and I really hope that if anything comes out of this, is that victims of any kind of abuse find the courage to speak out.

It takes a LOT of courage to do something about sexual (and emotional) abuse, harassment or assault. And reporting it doesn’t necessarily lead to a solution (other than knowing you’ve done the right thing); you have to be “strong” for a really extended time, through accusations and embarrassment and blaming and re-living the experience.

It took me YEARS to finally do something (in my case, gathering my evidence and walking through the door of the police department and asking to speak to a detective). When my family found out what I’d been secretly enduring, they were shocked. But, sometimes it requires logistics, planning, escape routes, Plan Bs, all kinds of strength-gathering, a team of legal advocates and emotional support.

Lots of the HW victims DID do something; it fell on deaf ears. Nobody helped. People were too afraid to stick their own necks out. Power is in numbers.

I agree that it’s okay to ask, because it helps to tell why because it explains the difficulty and maybe even helps others to plan a strategy.

But the narrative needs to be changed: From “Why didn’t you tell?” to “Why does this HAPPEN and then why does it CONTINUE to happen?” The CULTURE needs to change.

Right now, the victims are expected to “do the right thing” and immediately quit and report the offender, etc. But if you are a single mother with young children at home and you need that factory job and the boss is demanding blow jobs or he’ll get you fired and swears he’ll give you terrible references, and he’s handing you extra money to feed your kids ... this is all FAR more common than people realize. I’ve KNOWN women who endured this. So, we (as a society) say: “Why didn’t SHE stop him or just quit?”

But that puts all the hardship on her and her kids, and zero on him.

The better question is: Why can’t we have a society where that is UNHEARD OF? Or where that woman can get help and that guy gets fired and has no power to do that?

You all should know right now: HUMAN RESOURCES DOES NOT WORK FOR YOU. IT WORKS FOR THE COMPANY.

I have a female friend who had a boss who was RELENTLESSLY abusing her, not sexually but emotionally, calling her too old, telling her he wished she’d get HIT BY A CAR, all kinds of awful shit. HR did nothing, they TOLD THE GUY what she’d reported. They refused to remedy the situation. Her only recourse would be to quit. Who wins and who loses, then? In this job market?

I used to work in an office full of sole-practitioner attorneys and one of these guys was OBVIOUSLY accepting blow jobs as payment in lieu of legal fees from a woman going through a divorce who had two really little kids at home. The dinosaur guys in the office laughed it off as the woman wanting a sugar daddy attorney guy. We women knew otherwise, that this attorney was using his power, he had something she needed (a divorce attorney) and he was using that to get oral sex because he knew she didn't have enough money. This isn't some kind of rare animal near extinction. These are the guys who openly joked about how, in the "good old days," they'd provide booze and hookers to insurance adjusters at swank downtown hotel rooms. Women are currency used to get something else.

[tremolo]

It takes a LOT of courage to do something about sexual (and emotional) abuse, harassment or assault. And reporting it doesn’t necessarily lead to a solution (other than knowing you’ve done the right thing); you have to be “strong” for a really extended time, through accusations and embarrassment and blaming and re-living the experience.

It took me YEARS to finally do something (in my case, gathering my evidence and walking through the door of the police department and asking to speak to a detective). When my family found out what I’d been secretly enduring, they were shocked. But, sometimes it requires logistics, planning, escape routes, Plan Bs, all kinds of strength-gathering, a team of legal advocates and emotional support.

Lots of the HW victims DID do something; it fell on deaf ears. Nobody helped. People were too afraid to stick their own necks out. Power is in numbers.

I agree that it’s okay to ask, because it helps to tell why because it explains the difficulty and maybe even helps others to plan a strategy.

But the narrative needs to be changed: From “Why didn’t you tell?” to “Why does this HAPPEN and then why does it CONTINUE to happen?” The CULTURE needs to change.

Right now, the victims are expected to “do the right thing” and immediately quit and report the offender, etc. But if you are a single mother with young children at home and you need that factory job and the boss is demanding blow jobs or he’ll get you fired and swears he’ll give you terrible references, and he’s handing you extra money to feed your kids ... this is all FAR more common than people realize. I’ve KNOWN women who endured this. So, we (as a society) say: “Why didn’t SHE stop him or just quit?”

But that puts all the hardship on her and her kids, and zero on him.

The better question is: Why can’t we have a society where that is UNHEARD OF? Or where that woman can get help and that guy gets fired and has no power to do that?

You all should know right now: HUMAN RESOURCES DOES NOT WORK FOR YOU. IT WORKS FOR THE COMPANY.

I have a female friend who had a boss who was RELENTLESSLY abusing her, not sexually but emotionally, calling her too old, telling her he wished she’d get HIT BY A CAR, all kinds of awful shit. HR did nothing, they TOLD THE GUY what she’d reported. They refused to remedy the situation. Her only recourse would be to quit. Who wins and who loses, then? In this job market?

I used to work in an office full of sole-practitioner attorneys and one of these guys was OBVIOUSLY accepting blow jobs as payment in lieu of legal fees from a woman going through a divorce who had two really little kids at home. The dinosaur guys in the office laughed it off as the woman wanting a sugar daddy attorney guy. We women knew otherwise, that this attorney was using his power, he had something she needed (a divorce attorney) and he was using that to get oral sex because he knew she didn't have enough money. This isn't some kind of rare animal near extinction. These are the guys who openly joked about how, in the "good old days," they'd provide booze and hookers to insurance adjusters at swank downtown hotel rooms. Women are currency used to get something else.

I understand your point, but I completely disagree with the logic of your examples.

[allegro]

I understand your point, but I completely disagree with the logic of your examples.

This isn’t about convincing anyone or agreeing or disagreeing. It’s about fixing the problem. Blaming the victims for the problem isn’t a solution.

The linked article proposes fixing the problem, which is linked back to our culture of accepting this as something that is only perpetuated due to the victims not fixing it.

There are few legal resources to protect people unless something illegal happens; sexual assault is a crime but most go unreported due to fear that the system will side with the perpetrator. Sexual harassment requires civil legal action, and that’s even worse “my word vs. theirs.” One of the HW victims IMMEDIATELY went to the NYPD; the cops put a wire on her and HW is recorded admitting that he did what she said he did. But Vance did nothing.

I was sexually harassed at work when I was 18, and I immediately quit. But I was privileged at the time, my father owned a company and I went to work for him; my career went unscathed; I didn’t have to support a family; I had people to pay my bills if needed; but that doesn’t mean I judge people who didn’t handle it the way I did because they weren’t in my situation; changing focus to why the victim didn’t act a certain way takes the focus away from who did it and why it’s an epidemic.

[tremolo]

This isn’t about convincing anyone or agreeing or disagreeing. It’s about fixing the problem. Blaming the victims for the problem isn’t a solution.

Nobody is blaming the victims. At least I am not.

I'm not trying to fix the problem either, it is way beyond my powers to do so. All we are doing here is sharing opinions and points of views.

[Louie_Cypher]

just more proof that the "casting couch" still exists. we'd like to think that we've matured as a nation. with sexism, racism. but we really haven't. the republican's and the Taliban are a lot closer than they each think. you look at the last week with birth control abortion. careful or you'll be asking you brother for a ride to the bank to use his account to cash your check. to buy the latest fashionable burka. When the president can't be caught on tape, spouting the shit he did and fox news, this is condoning this behavior. this whole "i grew up in a different generation". we did a lot of stupid shit in the past. you recognize the errors of your ways correct and move forward. you don't. pretend it never happened, shrug your shoulders and say "that's just the way it is". I don't consider myself an "sjw" but daily i feel pushed in that direction.
and "don't take any guff from the swine"
-Louie

[sweeterthan]

She’s saying that Harvey Weinstein is an exhibited symptom, not the disease. The disease is our entire culture; Hollywood feeds the culture what it wants; Hollywood doesn’t drive or create the culture; Hollywood has been a giant mirror of our culture, a magnification of our worst aspects; a guy like Weinstein isn't preying on the ugly girls; there is no shortage of pretty girls in Hollywood (what "America wants") but it's not a real world; Hollywood itself is promoting and protecting predators in the interest of profit. Putting HW in charge in Hollywood is like a pedo in charge at a Catholic grade school.

See also this prior post: http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/4688-Harvey-Weinstein?p=380953#post380953

Bialik says:


Trump said "when you're a star, you can do whatever you want and they let you."


Her opinion seems very victim blame-y. Saying she's never experienced harassment due to her looks and because she doesn't go to hotel meetings. To me, this is a terrible sentiment to portray. Going to a hotel party isn't an invitation to rape. These women should know better than to go to a hotel party and not expect to put out, right? HORRIBLE. the problem isn't just hollywood. It's everywhere. I know you know that. Bialik's opinions have previously offended me (she's anti vax) so i think i'm looking at it hyper critically but insinuating that her luck in not being harassed or assaulted has to do with her looks is problematic. It contributes to the "ugly" girls not being believed and taken seriously.


Due to FEAR of power and money. Not always due to reverence.

A family friend that i've known forever basically said these women were more motivated by money than integrity since they didn't warn everyone about Weinstien. Like really you don't understand who's motivated by money? It's not the rapist with the money? NO? This person is a male. I responded that the issue is more about teaching our sons about consent and respect. He responded that "we could also teach daughters to not chase money." I just don't think he understands that the victims have no power. NONE! Reporting doesn't solve the problem. Being monetarily compensated isn't "money chasing". It's how the system works for victims and perpetrators.

[tremolo]

Victims DO have power. I think the problem is that they tend to convince themselves they don't. We all have the power to take control of our lives and make the necessary changes to make our lives better.

Let's stop being afraid of change and accept that change in life very rarely happens as a smooth seamless transition. Most of the time it's rocky and difficult, but it is possible.

[allegro]

I agree. It’s a slow process but we need to do it. However, women can’t (and shouldn’t be expected to) do it alone; men have to speak out and put their own heads on the block to denounce this as unacceptable, too. The men need to add their voice. And boys need to be taught that this behavior is reprehensible.

We all also need to note that the VAST MAJORITY of Weinstein victims did NOT seek or get money. And the ones who did get money most likely would have MUCH preferred that it never happened.

And the press has known about this for years: https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-11/harvey-weinstein-cover-how-censorship-settlements-and-silence-kept-allegations

[Louie_Cypher]

side note reading Whitney Cummings I'm fine...and other lies. I find her attractive intelligent, honest and funny and a lot better repressing womens issues then say Amy shummer, and she dorsn't steal her material.
-Louie

[allegro]

sweeterthan, I agree that Bialik’s piece does read like sour grapes, that she never got propositioned because she’s some quirky weirdo not generally appealing and it was so so hard for her to fit in, while those cute girls were busy fighting off rapey guys boo boo hoo, oh they think THEY had it hard but it coulda been worse, they coulda been some goofy chick like HER, completely ignored.

Kinda like when that black football player (?) sat next to Lena Dunham and he didn’t make a pass at her or sexually harass her so she wrote a piece about him, reading his mind about how he must have been thinking she was a fat pig or disgusting ... the reality was that he was probably busy, but she put him the Pig category for NOT noticing her. So, yeah, there is (as tremolo said) a lot of “me” in her thesis.

[allegro]

side note reading Whitney Cummings I'm fine...and other lies. I find her attractive intelligent, honest and funny and a lot better repressing womens issues then say Amy shummer, and she dorsn't steal her material.
-Louie

Okay now I HAVE to get this book ... thanks Lou!

[tremolo]

I agree. It’s a slow process but we need to do it. However, women can’t (and shouldn’t be expected to) do it alone; men have to speak out and put their own heads on the block to denounce this as unacceptable, too. The men need to add their voice. And boys need to be taught that this behavior is reprehensible.

We all also need to note that the VAST MAJORITY of Weinstein victims did NOT seek or get money. And the ones who did get money most likely would have MUCH preferred that it never happened.

And the press has known about this for years: https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-10-11/harvey-weinstein-cover-how-censorship-settlements-and-silence-kept-allegations

Values are values, and they go beyond gender. It doesn't matter if our kids are boys or girls, they should have a clear understanding of boundaries, respect, appretiaton, sympathy, empathy, support, and love for each other and everyone around them.

People should respect people, regardless of their gender.

[mfte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBVSmoMABh8

[sweeterthan]

Values are values, and they go beyond gender. It doesn't matter if our kids are boys or girls, they should have a clear understanding of boundaries, respect, appretiaton, sympathy, empathy, support, and love for each other and everyone around them.

People should respect people, regardless of their gender.
Well yeah but it doesn't currently work like that, unfortunately. I think we'll get there but it might still be a few generations before there's a dent in amount of overall harassment. We have an admitted assailant in the white house right now. The president is the poster child of misogyny. It was part of his campaign schtick. So i still think we have a long way to go.

[tremolo]

Well yeah but it doesn't currently work like that, unfortunately. I think we'll get there but it might still be a few generations before there's a dent in amount of overall harassment. We have an admitted assailant in the white house right now. The president is the poster child of misogyny. It was part of his campaign schtick. So i still think we have a long way to go.

No doubt about that! But the fact he is a male is irrelevant. What matters is these people's disgusting and sick behaviour, which has nothing to do with their own gender and more to do with their sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour, how they treat others and their complete inability to deal with power.

[theimage13]

No doubt about that! But the fact he is a male is irrelevant. What matters is these people's disgusting and sick behaviour, which has nothing to do with their own gender and more to do with their sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour, how they treat others and their complete inability to deal with power.

No, the fact that he is a male is extremely relevant. To say that it's not is like shouting "all lives matter" after another unarmed black guy gets murdered by a police officer (and if you don't understand what's wrong with, then I don't think I'm going to be able to get through to you).

Men are the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of sexual assault / harassment / rape. Can guys be victims of it? Sure. But I'm smart enough to know that we are far and away the cause of the problem. It would be beyond tone deaf to ignore the sex of someone when discussing stuff like this.

Let me be blunt: when it comes to sexual assault as a whole: men are the problem.

The justice system itself needs work (it's flaws with the system that often discourage women from reporting things). But that wouldn't even be an issue if men would get it in their heads that women are not objects there to be used and manipulated. There needs to be a complete and drastic shift in our cultural values, specifically, with how men treat people. I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard a woman make a lewd comment about a guy she found attractive. I'd be well into the thousands if I was still keeping track of how many times a guy has made a lewd comment about a woman he found attractive. So I'll say it again for those in the back: when discussing an abuser, point out that he is male is extremely relevant.

[tremolo]

No, the fact that he is a male is extremely relevant. To say that it's not is like shouting "all lives matter" after another unarmed black guy gets murdered by a police officer (and if you don't understand what's wrong with, then I don't think I'm going to be able to get through to you).

Men are the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of sexual assault / harassment / rape. Can guys be victims of it? Sure. But I'm smart enough to know that we are far and away the cause of the problem. It would be beyond tone deaf to ignore the sex of someone when discussing stuff like this.

Let me be blunt: when it comes to sexual assault as a whole: men are the problem.

The justice system itself needs work (it's flaws with the system that often discourage women from reporting things). But that wouldn't even be an issue if men would get it in their heads that women are not objects there to be used and manipulated. There needs to be a complete and drastic shift in our cultural values, specifically, with how men treat people. I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard a woman make a lewd comment about a guy she found attractive. I'd be well into the thousands if I was still keeping track of how many times a guy has made a lewd comment about a woman he found attractive. So I'll say it again for those in the back: when discussing an abuser, point out that he is male is extremely relevant.

It isn't relevant, because his actions are not defined by his gender, just as they are not defined by his race, religion, the colour of his skin or eyes, nationality, etc.

I won't debate about the whole objectifying women and blaming men for everything bad that happens to them. Blaming men for this is taking the power away from women and putting them in the same position as children, and I believe that's awfully wrong.

You make a lot of points that have absolutely no direct connection with this case. Lewd comments and all that stuff... I could make a similar case about money talk and gold-digging whores, but that would be considered awful, sexist, an infantile generalization, mysoginist, and what not. But apparently reverse sexism and stupid generalizations are fine and acceptable when the ones being trashed are men.

All we have in common as men is the XY. Everything else is just generalizarions and bs made up to fit an agenda.

[theimage13]

^^^

Can someone with the appropriate privileges please facepalm that on my behalf. "Sexual assault is a generalization and bullshit made up to fit an agenda"

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!

[M1ke]

It isn't relevant, because his actions are not defined by his gender, just as they are not defined by his race, religion, the colour of his skin or eyes, nationality, etc.

I won't debate about the whole objectifying women and blaming men for everything bad that happens to them. Blaming men for this is taking the power away from women and putting them in the same position as children, and I believe that's awfully wrong.

You make a lot of points that have absolutely no direct connection with this case. Lewd comments and all that stuff... I could make a similar case about money talk and gold-digging whores, but that would be considered awful, sexist, an infantile generalization, mysoginist, and what not. But apparently reverse sexism and stupid generalizations are fine and acceptable when the ones being trashed are men.

All we have in common as men is the XY. Everything else is just generalizarions and bs made up to fit an agenda.

Are you mental?

We live in a world where the system is set up to protect men who abuse more than it is to protect the women who are abused.

And you want to have this discussion without bringing gender into it?? Tough shit, it's part of it.

[tremolo]

Are you mental?

We live in a world where the system is set up to protect men who abuse more than it is to protect the women who are abused.

And you want to have this discussion without bringing gender into it?? Tough shit, it's part of it.

So, just because I don't agree with your view, I happen to have some kind of mental problem.

Hurray for tolerance and respect!

The system is set to protect abusers more than those who are abused.

[tremolo]

^^^

Can someone with the appropriate privileges please facepalm that on my behalf. "Sexual assault is a generalization and bullshit made up to fit an agenda"

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!

No, that's what you read into it. Don't misquote me.

Sexual assault is not a generalization. I never said that.

Really? Are you fucking kidding me?

[M1ke]

So, just because I don't agree with your view, I happen to have some kind of mental problem.

Hurray for tolerance and respect!

The system is set to protect abusers more than those who are abused.

NO, THIS SITUATION IS PROOF THAT IT'S NOT.

I don't have to tolerate or respect willful ignorance. Which is what you're demonstrating.

Grow up, GENDER MATTERS WHEN DISCUSSING SEXUAL ASSAULT.

[tremolo]

NO, THIS SITUATION IS PROOF THAT IT'S NOT.

I don't have to tolerate or respect willful ignorance. Which is what you're demonstrating.

Grow up, GENDER MATTERS WHEN DISCUSSING SEXUAL ASSAULT.

So anyone who doesn't share your view is willfully ignorant. Great.

Abuse is abuse, period. Gender doesn't matter when discussing sexual assault. The problem is in the action itself, not on the gender of the abuser/abused.

[M1ke]

So anyone who doesn't share your view is willfully ignorant. Great.

Abuse is abuse, period. Gender doesn't matter when discussing sexual assault. The problem is in the action itself, not on the gender of the abuser/abused.

No, anyone who believes that gender is irrelevant when discussing systemic sexual assault is willfully ignorant.

Grow up, get a clue, open your eyes. IT MATTERS.

Removing gender from the discussion prevents discussion of gender roles, of societal expectations placed on men and women that allow predators like this to run rampant and afford them protections. It prevents discussion of power structures that have been benefiting men over women for DECADES.

You don't get to shut down a discussion by being willfully ignorant. Take your crap elsewhere, get your head out of the fucking ground. This kind of attitude accomplishes nothing but shutting down discussions around what the actual problem is, which is POWERFUL MEN TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE POWER THAT OUR WORLD ALLOWS THEM TO HAVE OVER WOMEN.

GENDER MATTERS.

[tremolo]

No, anyone who believes that gender is irrelevant when discussing systemic sexual assault is willfully ignorant.

Grow up, get a clue, open your eyes. IT MATTERS.

Removing gender from the discussion prevents discussion of gender roles, of societal expectations placed on men and women that allow predators like this to run rampant and afford them protections. It prevents discussion of power structures that have been benefiting men over women for DECADES.

You don't get to shut down a discussion by being willfully ignorant. Take your crap elsewhere, get your head out of the fucking ground. This kind of attitude accomplishes nothing but shutting down discussions around what the actual problem is, which is POWERFUL MEN TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE POWER THAT OUR WORLD ALLOWS THEM TO HAVE OVER WOMEN.

GENDER MATTERS.

Let me know when you can actually argue using arguments, or at least when you can admit that your views are just that and not THE absolute truth.

Adding insults to your posts doesn't make your points stronger.

[aggroculture]

Tremolo, seriously, take a week, go on the internet, on twitter, on wikipedia, start wherever you want, but educate yourself on this topic because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Better yet, sign up for a gender studies class, and start with feminism 101. Learn about patriarchy, privilege, intersectionality, and take it from there.


Values are values, and they go beyond gender. It doesn't matter if our kids are boys or girls, they should have a clear understanding of boundaries, respect, appretiaton, sympathy, empathy, support, and love for each other and everyone around them.

People should respect people, regardless of their gender.

This point, before you went off the deep end, is fine, and not mutually exclusive with understanding that there is a huge, utterly huge power imbalance in our world between men and women, that male privilege is very real, and that rape, sexual assault, and harassment all the way down to microaggressions are ways in which men enforce their power and maintain patriarchy, even without necessarily knowing that is what they are doing, especially when they're young and unaware of what the world is like from the other side. Listening to what women are saying is a good first step.

And don't be defensive about this! I wasted too much time in my life hiding behind #notallmen bullshit.

[M1ke]

Let me know when you can actually argue using arguments, or at least when you can admit that your views are just that and not THE absolute truth.

Adding insults to your posts doesn't make your points stronger.

No thanks, I'm good not interacting with you. I'd rather talk to people who I could possibly have a productive conversation with, rather than one who wants to be willfully ignorant.

Your argument is nothing more than a distraction that would waste everyone's time if we tried to debate it.

[tremolo]

No thanks, I'm good not interacting with you. I'd rather talk to people who I could possibly have a productive conversation with, rather than one who wants to be willfully ignorant.

Your argument is nothing more than a distraction that would waste everyone's time if we tried to debate it.

So you only want to talk about this with people who agree with you or are willing to agree with you. Basically you want to hear/read your own views and opinions coming from someone else.

That's great. I don't see how that builds up any kind of debate or opens up any room for an actual discussion. Nothing wrong with that, but please stop quoting me then.

[aggroculture]

The devil's advocate position is another tired, old anti-feminist chestnut. Best avoided!

[M1ke]

So you only want to talk about this with people who agree with you or are willing to agree with you. Basically you want to hear/read your own views and opinions coming from someone else.

That's great. I don't see how that builds up any kind of debate or opens up any room for an actual discussion. Nothing wrong with that, but please stop quoting me then.

No, I'm happy to have discussions with people who make meaningful contributions.

I'm not happy to have conversations with people who claim the sky is red; that you can't explain why the tide goes in, tide goes out; or that sexual assault isn't about gender.

There is a very basic amount of education that needs to be achieved before a person can make a meaningful contribution to a discussion, and you have most certainly not reached it. Get your head out of the sand, go educate yourself, and come back when you have.

[sweeterthan]

tremolo, I do get what your saying, that everyone should treat everyone, regardless of gender, respectfully and equally. But the responses you are getting are because the balance of power is only on one side. You said earlier in the thread that victims do have power. I wrote several responses to you with my examples of harassment and even my own unreported assault but I didn't post them. Reason being I don't think those things will make you understand. It's fucking everywhere. In everything. Hollywood is the tip of the iceberg. There are so many shows and movies where rape and murder are the central theme. I can barely watch anything anymore without being faced with rape. I don't care if it's art to some. I don't need to see it. I can't watch even if I know it's not real. I'm so fucking sick of seeing it. It almost stopped me from watching game of thrones. My husband assured me it would get better and it did. I love the show. The last few seasons have been my favorite. There was an amazing moment where a character's rape sparked outraged. People posting how upset they were it happened while others were like what did you think would happen in this situation? (Sorry to be vague. I'm trying not spoil anything.) The fact that so many were upset by this and voicing it tells me that things are changing albeit very very slowly.

This problem has always existed. I dare to say, since the beginning of time. Reporting it brings tons of trouble, pain and work for victims. We continue to fight but it still happens. That's why men need to fix it. We've been trying forever. It still happens. It probably happened multiple times while I was typing this post.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion. They're saying your opinion is wrong. I think posting in this thread shows you want to understand so I can't fault your responses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tremolo]

No, I'm happy to have discussions with people who make meaningful contributions.

I'm not happy to have conversations with people who claim the sky is red; that you can't explain why the tide goes in, tide goes out; or that sexual assault isn't about gender.

There is a very basic amount of education that needs to be achieved before a person can make a meaningful contribution to a discussion, and you have most certainly not reached it. Get your head out of the sand, go educate yourself, and come back when you have.

Don't give me that bs.

You quoted me first just to insult me. You brought this discussion to a personal level when what we should be discussing are ideas and points of view. And now you come on your high horse talking about education? That's just gold.

[allegro]

The devil's advocate position is another tired, old anti-feminist chestnut. Best avoided!
That’s the problem I have with these “it’s not about gender” arguments, which seem to limit gender only to science male/female indicators and ignores gender (roles) as a social construct. We’ve seen this happen MANY times in the feminist thread, here, where users we know to be male complain about social justice warriors blaming men for everything and women are way better off than they used to be and any complaints are just whining and blah blah blah. And a good many of us here now attribute that to just plain old trolling, not devil’s advocate. It just starts up what is happening now. It’s like: Mission Accomplished.

I don’t see how debate is meaningful, here. Maybe it’s my advanced age, but I think discussion about where this happens, how we may be a part of the system, and how to fix it is a useful discussion.

Journalists in Italy are blaming the victims in this HW mess due to what they were WEARING. One Italian article showed an old movie photo of a half-naked Asia Argento (in an Italian movie about strippers or something) and inferred that she’s a whore.

We are still in the Stone Age.

Mayim Bialik thinks her being a nice religious Jewish girl who dressed modestly protected her from sexual harassment.

When discussing sexual harassment and assault, we DO need to give agency to females. Placing females solely in the “poor victims who need to be protected” category only serves to decrease their power.

Guys like HW do what they do NOT for sex; they do it for POWER; they do it from a place of hate and the desire for more power.

[theimage13]

When discussing sexual harassment and assault, we DO need to give agency to females. Placing females solely in the “poor victims who need to be protected” category only serves to decrease their power.

Made me think of this, which I just saw posted earlier this morning elsewhere.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0b/ce/27/0bce27fba001debb7e9731d416f9b72d.jpg

[M1ke]

Don't give me that bs.

You quoted me first just to insult me. You brought this discussion to a personal level when what we should be discussing are ideas and points of view. And now you come on your high horse talking about education? That's just gold.

I did it to call you out on your shit. Your opinion is shit.

You can't have a meaningful discussion of sexual harassment without discussing gender. To try and do otherwise is willful ignorance.

[Louie_Cypher]

sorry kind of on a Whitney juant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJWDXzPw_IA

[tremolo]

tremolo, I do get what your saying, that everyone should treat everyone, regardless of gender, respectfully and equally. But the responses you are getting are because the balance of power is only on one side. You said earlier in the thread that victims do have power. I wrote several responses to you with my examples of harassment and even my own unreported assault but I didn't post them. Reason being I don't think those things will make you understand. It's fucking everywhere. In everything. Hollywood is the tip of the iceberg. There are so many shows and movies where rape and murder are the central theme. I can barely watch anything anymore without being faced with rape. I don't care if it's art to some. I don't need to see it. I can't watch even if I know it's not real. I'm so fucking sick of seeing it. It almost stopped me from watching game of thrones. My husband assured me it would get better and it did. I love the show. The last few seasons have been my favorite. There was an amazing moment where a character's rape sparked outraged. People posting how upset they were it happened while others were like what did you think would happen in this situation? (Sorry to be vague. I'm trying not spoil anything.) The fact that so many were upset by this and voicing it tells me that things are changing albeit very very slowly.

This problem has always existed. I dare to say, since the beginning of time. Reporting it brings tons of trouble, pain and work for victims. We continue to fight but it still happens. That's why men need to fix it. We've been trying forever. It still happens. It probably happened multiple times while I was typing this post.

No one is saying you can't have an opinion. They're saying your opinion is wrong. I think posting in this thread shows you want to understand so I can't fault your responses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

First, thanks for expressing yourself in a respectful manner.

I have not questioned the fact that power is heavily shifted to one side, which is the male side. But that doesn't mean that just being a man puts us in a position of power. At this level –the level of an everyday joe– my opinion has as much weight as the opinion of the bartender down the street, the lady cashier at the grocery store, or the bus driver.

What's my point? That beyond this being a gender issue, it's a power issue. So, when someone says that men should be particularly vocal about this, I say we all should be. And I also say that the impact of my voice has no more impact just because I am a male. If there is a group of people whose voices have more impact, it is that of people who are in positions of power, or with enough of a scope to reach others (celebrities, for example).

When I say victims do have power, I didn't mean to say that they have the power to avoid abuse, since we're all vulnerable and exposed just by being alive. I do strongly believe that we have the power to act after, and I do understand that it's easier said than done, mostly because of the sense of fear and shame. I think as a society we should have stronger mechanisms to help and support victims so these cases of abuse can be dealt with before the abuser can continue harming more people.

I think that the discrepancy here, and what seems to enrage some users here is that I think that "men" as a whole don't have the power to fix this huge fuckup. It's those people who are in a position of power who can actually make it happen: politicians, CEOs, filmmakers, etc.

Which brings us to politics. I do understand the frustration. I mean looks who is the president of the most powerful country in the world! And look who is prime minister just north of trumpland. As progressive as he might seem, I'm very critical of the way he has been dealing with shifting the balance of power. Trudeau said half of his cabinet would be women. When he was asked why, he said "cause it's 2017." What the hell is that supposed to mean? That it's 2017, therefore women should be given privilege just because they are women and haven't been on the spotlight enough? What about saying "because there are as many women as men capable of doing the job"? So, as progressive as it might seem, there is still this rotten smell of "just because" or "because we have to" instead of actually empowering women, not just because oftheir gender, but because it's time that their skills, work and effort are noticed, rewarded and encouraged.

About the examples you gave before, I do understand and see your point, but I just can't share the same view, mostly because a victim can justify so many things by considering themselves a victim. I have seen both sides from very close: women (and men) who have walked into the role of the victim because they didn't see another way at the time given the circumstances; and women (and men) who didn't give in and walked into a difficult path of uncertainty instead of giving their potential aggressor any power over them. Having said that, I want to stress this: I am not blaming the victims. What I am saying is that there are alternatives and other ways, but I do understand the victim's course of action (as in sucking the attorney's dick), because these abusive situations are complex, mostly because of the huge mindfuck that the aggressor plays on their victims.

I think in the end we have more points in common than we initially thought. The difference is that I consider that it is positions of power what helps abusers get away with it, not their gender. And I don't think I'm right and you or others are wrong just because you don't agree with me, it's just different perspectives.


Thanks again for taking the time to elaborate your points. This kind of debate is necessary, and as dark as the subject is, it's very rewarding to have a respectful conversation with someone who doesn't necessarily agree.

[tremolo]

I did it to call you out on your shit. Your opinion is shit.

You can't have a meaningful discussion of sexual harassment without discussing gender. To try and do otherwise is willful ignorance.

You just don't know how to debate ideas and instead, you resort to insults. That's on you, not on me.

I won't bother replying to you again, since you have proven to be unable to articulate a proper answer that focuses on the points you want to make.

[M1ke]

First, thanks for expressing yourself in a respectful manner.

I have not questioned the fact that power is heavily shifted to one side, which is the male side. But that doesn't mean that just being a man puts us in a position of power. At this level –the level of an everyday joe– my opinion has as much weight as the opinion of the bartender down the street, the lady cashier at the grocery store, or the bus driver.

What's my point? That beyond this being a gender issue, it's a power issue. So, when someone says that men should be particularly vocal about this, I say we all should be. And I also say that the impact of my voice has no more impact just because I am a male. If there is a group of people whose voices have more impact, it is that of people who are in positions of power, or with enough of a scope to reach others (celebrities, for example).

When I say victims do have power, I didn't mean to say that they have the power to avoid abuse, since we're all vulnerable and exposed just by being alive. I do strongly believe that we have the power to act after, and I do understand that it's easier said than done, mostly because of the sense of fear and shame. I think as a society we should have stronger mechanisms to help and support victims so these cases of abuse can be dealt with before the abuser can continue harming more people.

I think that the discrepancy here, and what seems to enrage some users here is that I think that "men" as a whole don't have the power to fix this huge fuckup. It's those people who are in a position of power who can actually make it happen: politicians, CEOs, filmmakers, etc.

Which brings us to politics. I do understand the frustration. I mean looks who is the president of the most powerful country in the world! And look who is prime minister just north of trumpland. As progressive as he might seem, I'm very critical of the way he has been dealing with shifting the balance of power. Trudeau said half of his cabinet would be women. When he was asked why, he said "cause it's 2017." What the hell is that supposed to mean? That it's 2017, therefore women should be given privilege just because they are women and haven't been on the spotlight enough? What about saying "because there are as many women as men capable of doing the job"? So, as progressive as it might seem, there is still this rotten smell of "just because" or "because we have to" instead of actually empowering women, not just because oftheir gender, but because it's time that their skills, work and effort are noticed, rewarded and encouraged.

About the examples you gave before, I do understand and see your point, but I just can't share the same view, mostly because a victim can justify so many things by considering themselves a victim. I have seen both sides from very close: women (and men) who have walked into the role of the victim because they didn't see another way at the time given the circumstances; and women (and men) who didn't give in and walked into a difficult path of uncertainty instead of giving their potential aggressor any power over them. Having said that, I want to stress this: I am not blaming the victims. What I am saying is that there are alternatives and other ways, but I do understand the victim's course of action (as in sucking the attorney's dick), because these abusive situations are complex, mostly because of the huge mindfuck that the aggressor plays on their victims.

I think in the end we have more points in common than we initially thought. The difference is that I consider that it is positions of power what helps abusers get away with it, not their gender. And I don't think I'm right and you or others are wrong just because you don't agree with me, it's just different perspectives.


Thanks again for taking the time to elaborate your points. This kind of debate is necessary, and as dark as the subject is, it's very rewarding to have a respectful conversation with someone who doesn't necessarily agree.

Trudeau said what he said because we're at the point where anyone who doesn't get it hasn't been paying attention, and it's not worth spoonfeeding to those who are way behind the curve anymore. He used the right tone, it's 2017, we shouldn't even be questioning this anymore, and it's not a question worth entertaining.

And you're not blaming the victim, you're just saying that they had other options they could have chosen??? Fuck that, that's victim blaming. You're trying to re-define victim blaming, by arguing that you're not blaming them, you're just pointing out that they chose it. PULL YOUR GODDAMN HEAD OUT OF THE GROUND!!!

THEY HAVE THEIR POSITION OF POWER PARTLY BECAUSE OF THEIR GENDER! THEY WOULD NOT HAVE THAT POSITION OF POWER IF THEY WERE NOT MEN!!!

It's 2017. Try to catch up.

EDIT: Also, Trudeau's quote was "Because it's 2015". You're way behind here. Try to catch up, get educated, his tone was right in 2015. It should probably be harsher 2 years later.

[botley]

You just don't know how to debate ideas and instead, you resort to insults. That's on you, not on me.
There's some insulting words being thrown around, but realize you're also writing in an extremely condescending and insensitive manner, given that the subject matter is so emotionally charged for nearly everybody here (and, well, everywhere).

Gender studies is an enormous, well-documented field of academia, and you're acting like none of it exists or matters when it comes to rape culture, which is clearly a case of arguing from ignorance (and I'm not trying to insult you, but you've seemingly decided things are the way you think they are, and anyone who tells you otherwise can't possibly be better-informed about it because... reasons). Also, Trudeau said that in 2015 — yes, he's been Prime Minister for nearly two years — because he wanted the issue of equity to be taken as a given. Which is what we need in order to move forward and do better with getting power back in the hands of people that have been denied it for too long. Whether I think he's done well with that or not (it's taking way too long, IMO), that's at least a necessary starting point, even if, on its own, it was an insufficient gesture to redistribute power. BUT AT LEAST HE MADE A GESTURE.

[Jinsai]

Talking about sexual assault as an institutionalized epidemic without addressing gender is just... bizarre.

[tremolo]

There's some insulting words being thrown around, but realize you're also writing in an extremely condescending and insensitive manner, given that the subject matter is so emotionally charged for nearly everybody here (and, well, everywhere).

Gender studies is an enormous, well-documented field of academia, and you're acting like none of it exists or matters when it comes to rape culture, which is clearly a case of arguing from ignorance (and I'm not trying to insult you, but you've seemingly decided things are the way you think they are, and anyone who tells you otherwise can't possibly be better-informed about it because... reasons). Also, Trudeau said that in 2015 — yes, he's been Prime Minister for nearly two years — because he wanted the issue of equity to be taken as a given. Which is what we need in order to move forward and do better with getting power back in the hands of people that have been denied it for too long. Whether I think he's done well with that or not (it's taking way too long, IMO), that's at least a necessary starting point, even if, on its own, it was an insufficient gesture to redistribute power. BUT AT LEAST HE MADE A GESTURE.

Yeah, i was being condescending with some angry person. I'm a bit of an asshole myself, but I wouldn't bring that to a conversation where the people i'm interacting with are being respectful.

I don't think I'm being insensitive in any way, just trying to be logical about it. People need to calm down a bit and stop getting so damn defensive when anyone has questions or a different view. I'm even on the same side, it's not like i'm blaming the victims, being antifeminist, or pretending this is not a big deal.

I explained my view on the gender issue in a previous post.

Trudeau is a fake with good PR.

[M1ke]

Yeah, i was being condescending with some angry person. I'm a bit of an asshole myself, but I wouldn't bring that to a conversation where the people i'm interacting with are being respectful.

I don't think I'm being insensitive in any way, just trying to be logical about it. People need to calm down a bit and stop getting so damn defensive when anyone has questions or a different view. I'm even on the same side, it's not like i'm blaming the victims, being antifeminist, or pretending this is not a big deal.

I explained my view on the gender issue in a previous post.

Trudeau is a fake with good PR.

Your lack of education about this topic is disrespectful. Expecting your opinion to be treated as equally valid despite a lack of subject matter knowledge, or even sense is disrespectful.

I don't know you well enough to know if you're doing it by design, to try and make an unpalatable idea appear more palatable, or if you're just ignorant, but either way, this kind of crap should not be tolerated, because the effect is the same.

[tremolo]

Trudeau said what he said because we're at the point where anyone who doesn't get it hasn't been paying attention, and it's not worth spoonfeeding to those who are way behind the curve anymore. He used the right tone, it's 2017, we shouldn't even be questioning this anymore, and it's not a question worth entertaining.

And you're not blaming the victim, you're just saying that they had other options they could have chosen??? Fuck that, that's victim blaming. You're trying to re-define victim blaming, by arguing that you're not blaming them, you're just pointing out that they chose it. PULL YOUR GODDAMN HEAD OUT OF THE GROUND!!!

THEY HAVE THEIR POSITION OF POWER PARTLY BECAUSE OF THEIR GENDER! THEY WOULD NOT HAVE THAT POSITION OF POWER IF THEY WERE NOT MEN!!!

It's 2017. Try to catch up.

EDIT: Also, Trudeau's quote was "Because it's 2015". You're way behind here. Try to catch up, get educated, his tone was right in 2015. It should probably be harsher 2 years later.

I did say that victims had a choice on how to react to the aggression, I didn't say it was their fault for being abused. They are victims as soon as someone abuses them, and that's the abuser's fault. What I am saying is that from that point on, as victims, they have choices, not just a single option.

An example to be more clear:

- John harrasses Betty
- Betty is a victim of John
- John is an aggressor
- Betty has a choice on how to act from now on: do i report him? Do i just shut up and sweep it under the rug? What are the repercusions of that choice? What is best for me? Etc.

That is all I'm saying, stressing the fact that that decision is crucial.


I don't know how you jump from "the victim has a choice" to "HE'S BLAMING THE VICTIM! HE'S BLAMING THE VICTIM!!! EDUCATE YOURSELF, CATCH UP!"

Reading comprehension, buddy. It's your problem, not mine.

[tremolo]

Your lack of education about this topic is disrespectful. Expecting your opinion to be treated as equally valid despite a lack of subject matter knowledge, or even sense is disrespectful.

I don't know you well enough to know if you're doing it by design, to try and make an unpalatable idea appear more palatable, or if you're just ignorant, but either way, this kind of crap should not be tolerated, because the effect is the same.

And somehow, for some reason, you think you get to dictate what has to be tolerated and what not. Awesome.

[Sarah K]

While on the surface, I can understand why someone could think that victims of this type of fuckery should "make the choice" to come forward right away, it takes about 5 minutes of research to see there are a ton of different reasons as to why they do not. All them are valid. Outsiders do not get to dictate how others confront or ignore their own traumas.

[M1ke]

I did say that victims had a choice on how to react to the aggression, I didn't say it was their fault for being abused.

Here's another quote from you:


What I am saying is that there are alternatives and other ways, but I do understand the victim's course of action (as in sucking the attorney's dick), because these abusive situations are complex, mostly because of the huge mindfuck that the aggressor plays on their victims.

Maybe you get it now???? Or are you still burying your head in the sand here?


I don't know how you jump from "the victim has a choice" to "HE'S BLAMING THE VICTIM! HE'S BLAMING THE VICTIM!!! EDUCATE YOURSELF, CATCH UP!"


Maybe you should re-read what you wrote up there, where you quite literally and specifically BLAMED THE VICTIM.

You can't just call something by a different name and expect it to no longer be awful. You're saying ignorant things. You need to stop saying ignorant things.

[tremolo]

Here's another quote from you:

[/I][/COLOR]

Maybe you get it now???? Or are you still burying your head in the sand here?



Maybe you should re-read what you wrote up there, where you quite literally and specifically BLAMED THE VICTIM.

You can't just call something by a different name and expect it to no longer be awful. You're saying ignorant things. You need to stop saying ignorant things.

I didn't blame the victim. That's what you want to understand because you have your mind set on something. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. What a complete stranger thinks of me is not the kind of thing that worries me or keeps me up at night.

You just happen to have a horrible reading comprehension. It's not my responsibility to send you back to 4th grade.

[M1ke]

I didn't blame the victim. That's what you want to understand because you have your mind set on something. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. What a complete stranger thinks of me is not the kind of thing that worries me or keeps me up at night.

You just happen to have a horrible reading comprehension. It's not my responsibility to send you back to 4th grade.

You're an idiot.

Also, I didn't call you an idiot.

[thevoid99]

You're an idiot.

Also, I didn't call you an idiot.

Can we ban him for being an idiot? I've already blocked him.

[Jinsai]

I didn't blame the victim. That's what you want to understand because you have your mind set on something. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. What a complete stranger thinks of me is not the kind of thing that worries me or keeps me up at night.

You just happen to have a horrible reading comprehension. It's not my responsibility to send you back to 4th grade.

God this is a train wreck... just take a step back and actually consider what's being said to you.

[tremolo]

God this is a train wreck... just take a step back and actually consider what's being said to you.

I think it would be great if we all took a step back and consider what is being said.

I understand how subject can make a lot of people extremely sensitive.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. I'm not claiming that my opinion (that of a nobody in the grand scope of things) is the truth. I'm not saying I'm right and orhers are wrong.

All I'm doing is expressing an opinion and my reasoning behind it to explain why I see things the way I do.

And people misread things. All of a sudden I'm an antifeminist, i blame the victims, and apparently i'm an idiot too.

There is no room to discuss these issues as adults in the same way we could talk about music. For some reason this subject gets too deep in people's nerves and bypasses the ability to talk about each other views without ripping each other's throats.

And even if you are bright and enlightened and have it all figured out, maybe you could put the effort in explaining and educating others to make this a better world or whatever it is your ultimate goal, but instead, you'd rather put people down. Kinda ironic.

But it seems it is an internet thing, just angry people behind a screen. It's an aggressive behaviour that I haven't found out there "in real life."

So I'll keep myself from discussing these issues online, at least in this forum.

So fuck you all, but tenderly and consensually.

Ta-da!

[Swykk]

“Just angry people behind a screen. And now for one (hopefully) last passive aggressive swipe at those you of who hated that I was blaming the victims despite typing that I wasn’t so that means I wasn’t but I keep trying to justify it, even losing my cool...you might say acting angry and lashing out at those trying to help...Oh, and something about reading comprehension instead of acknowledging my own problems empathizing.”

I’m not going to try and help you or offer any kind of advice. Mostly, I’m just tired of people like you hindering progress both here and in general. You’re just another Broskirose, GanduGains or whatever asshole of the month. Fuck you, but with less dignity and respect than you’re giving victims of sexual abuse.

[allegate]

Jesus. let's bring it back to some good news, eh?

Kevin Smith is donating his Weinstein residuals to a charity for women in filmmaking (https://www.avclub.com/kevin-smith-is-donating-his-weinstein-residuals-to-a-ch-1819640109)

Listened to babble-on this weekend and you could tell he was upset about this.

[theimage13]

And even if you are bright and enlightened and have it all figured out, maybe you could put the effort in explaining and educating others


I understand your point, but I completely disagree with the logic of your examples.

We tried explaining. It didn't work.

[allegro]

Females having to “explain our logic” as to our experiences and how we fight but get nowhere is when I know I’m just up against a “notallmen” argument, putting the onus on us and our individual superpowers that we are too stupid and wimpy to know we have to fix this problem. After 40 years of (cough) “explaining” (defending), forget it, useless. But, it’s nice that so many guys here really "get" it.

- John harasses Betty

John made the choice to do something illegal, immoral and reprehensible to another human being

It isn’t / shouldn't be up to BETTY to handle harassment and or assault or abuse and take John out of the RESPONSIBILITIES picture; IT SHOULD NOT have fucking HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE. John had the option of not being a fucking ASSHOLE, thereby not putting all these CHOICES (post abuse) on Betty. SOCIETY (legislation, peer pressure, education) is also expected to protect Betty-the-fellow-citizen.

Compare to this:

- John shoots Tom in the head

Tom can then:
- call the police
- drag himself to a hospital if he regains consciousness
- write a note with his own blood saying “John shot me” before he dies

It’s allllllllll about Tom and his choices?

Lol lol

[thevoid99]

Jesus. let's bring it back to some good news, eh?

Kevin Smith is donating his Weinstein residuals to a charity for women in filmmaking (https://www.avclub.com/kevin-smith-is-donating-his-weinstein-residuals-to-a-ch-1819640109)

Listened to babble-on this weekend and you could tell he was upset about this.

This is a good thing. Taking every bad thing that Harvey had done and put it to good use so that we can hear more voices. Thank you Kevin for doing what is right.

[Louie_Cypher]

i think it's good people are starting to speak up amazon guy they were like bye! with a quickness. and just a little tip guys if a girl wants to fuck you I'm pretty sure she'll let you know.
-Louie

[M1ke]

Lets play a game. Lets build a list of people who we think are good people that won't ever fall under this kind of news? Who are the good ones? I know tons were surprised with Joss Whedon was outed.

But that's the scary part, is that you never know who it's going to be. It comes out often being people you'd never suspect.

[allegro]

Jesus, these stories :(

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2017/10/jennifer-lawrence-shares-story-of-sexual-assault-at-elle-women-in-hollywood

http://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a13032565/reese-witherspoon-assaulted-by-director/

http://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a13043403/laura-dern-sexual-harassment-assault-ellen-degeneres-women-in-hollywood/

[bobbie solo]

I'm nervous that the Louis CK rumors are gonna pop up again and then actually be confirmed. That will be so heartbreaking & disappointing to me if true, as I absolutely love the man.

[Swykk]

I'm nervous that the Louis CK rumors are gonna pop up again and then actually be confirmed. That will be so heartbreaking & disappointing to me if true, as I absolutely love the man.

Yeah, this is (allegedly) well known amongst comedians. I think it was Jen Kirkman that said it out loud on a podcast. He wanted her to watch him jerk off.

I still like Louie’s comedy. He’s very talented for sure but as a person? Not as much.

If there are any heroes left, they’re few and far between.

@DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) Just to participate, I’ll put Joseph Gordon-Levitt out there as a guess in your game. He just always struck me as a decent level headed person.

[onthewall2983]

DigitalChaos Tom Hanks seems the obvious one. I maintain that Forrest Gump only works because of how personable he is and how much of that comes off when he's on screen, that there's literally nobody else you could see playing the role and not think they were doing this for the Academy Award he rightly deserved winning for it. More important to that is how good he comes off in interviews, too.

2nd to him would maybe be Spielberg.

[Louie_Cypher]

this is problem with anything with sex in our current digital age where sex is such currency. I was a fan of antony weiners. I do think a lot of people have a ligitimate problem, and need councling. first admit you have issues. then seek help.
-Louie

[onthewall2983]

Problem is, power corrupts so many people who would have otherwise been fine. *insert libertarian tie-in here*. The only humans that seem to survive it are the ones who don't want the power. And I can't think of celebs who fit that.

I suppose it depends on what their motives are. If it's just to be famous, then yeah they want the power that goes along with it obviously. But if it's someone who began with a genuine love of acting, does theater and a few commercials when they're a kid and *poof* they're the ruler of the box office, that's where things get murky. Considering the wide-spread response to this, not just as "celeb news" but as something that resonates with people's lives, this lends more and more the idea I've heard more than once that Hollywood is just high school with money.

[allegro]

Oliver Stone, not too surprising:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/10/oliver-stone-accused-sexual-harassment-defends-harvey-weinstein-1201886950/

[thevoid99]

Oliver Stone, not too surprising:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/10/oliver-stone-accused-sexual-harassment-defends-harvey-weinstein-1201886950/

He's a real scumbag. The person I heard he harassed is actually one of my favorite Playboy Playmates who was also the girlfriend of former KISS drummer Eric Carr until his passing.

[allegro]

Good article, sexual harassment in restaurant kitchens:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/anthony-bourdain-and-top-chef-have-it-wrong-the-boys-club-is-no-fun

[Sister Midnight]

The entertainment industry knew about Weinstein, Hollywood is all about money and power and it is shame that it took this long to get Weinstein out of there. I hope this is a beginning to a less sexual harassment Hollywood. Apparently Weinstein harassed one of my favorite actresses Eva Green. Weinstein is a piece of shit.
This does happen everywhere and in every industry and at every level of the workplace. This really needs to be a issue in the 2020 election women have put with this shit too long, its bad enough that women can't get equality in the workplace with regards to pay and salary. Then you have assholes like Weinstein running around out there making things that much more difficult.
There needs to be an equality for all movement in the 2020 election.

[onthewall2983]

Tarantino: "I knew enough to do more than I did" (https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/oct/19/quentin-tarantino-on-weinstein-i-knew-enough-to-do-more-than-i-did\)

[Boots]

I read about the naked audition Jennifer Lawrence had to do and it made me sick. They had to audition wearing nothing but tape to cover their privates. How degrading!!

[Dream]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/opinion/lupita-nyongo-harvey-weinstein.html

Excellent detailed and nuanced essay from Lupita Nyong’o about her experiences with Weinstein.

[allegro]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/opinion/lupita-nyongo-harvey-weinstein.html

Excellent detailed and nuanced essay from Lupita Nyong’o about her experiences with Weinstein.

Ugh I came here to link that same article, OMG that guy needs to be put before a firing squad.

[thevoid99]

I'd like to see him castrated or be beaten up to a bloody pulp by all of the women he's raped and harassed and to all the filmmakers he fucked over.

Edit: 10/20/17. Here's a follow-up video from Evan Rachel Wood about this wave of people coming out about their sexual abuse experiences. I love this woman and I'm glad she's able to get through this and be OK for herself and her child.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ6PI1j8lSM

[thevoid99]

Sorry for the double-post but honestly, fuck the Italian press for going against Asia Argento: https://qz.com/1105645/italys-response-to-asia-argentos-sexual-assault-claims-against-weinstein-shows-italys-deep-misogyny/

[Demogorgon]

I think she's been mentioned here already, but Jessicka Adams from Jack Off Jill expanded on what she'd been vaguely referring to over the last few months with a pretty scathing indictment of Jeordie White (aka Twiggy Ramirez) of Manson/NIN fame. I don't have the link handy but it's on her Facebook page, reshared on the Jack Off Jill page.

[allegro]

This Twitter thread is AWESOME!!!

https://twitter.com/kateharding/status/924271290751574016

[Sister Midnight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-29/sopranos-annabella-sciorra-accuses-harvey-weinstein-of-rape/9097166

Now Annabella Sciorra and Darryl Hannah, with all the actresses coming forward and speaking out. It almost seems like as these actresses popularity or ability to work were affected after their confrontations with Weinstein and if it can be proven that after Weinstein attacked them and then they were kept from working then I hope they sue the shit out of Weinstein and Miramax.

[Sarah K]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/harvey-weinsteins-army-of-spies

[allegro]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/harvey-weinsteins-army-of-spies

Ugh, God, I could only get a little more than halfway through that article and I actually started getting an upset stomach, like a little nauseated, and I had to stop reading it for a while, not sure when I'll be able to read the rest.