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Harry Seaward
04-16-2016, 02:48 AM
Josh Freese joins the Hour of Goon (Jeordie White's) podcast and talks about their time in NIN and APC. Smoke machine in tour bus and all:

https://soundcloud.com/hour-of-goon/hog-ep-12-josh-freese

Christ, I've been meaning to check out this podcast with Jeordie and Fred because I thought it might be interesting. I'm about halfway through this episode and it's fun hearing Jeordie and Josh talking about NIN and APC, but... holy FUCK, whoever is doing the 'zany morning DJ soundboard samples' is absolutely fucking annoying as shit. It doesn't even make sense, it's just a bunch of fucking random, out of place, meaningless noises droning out the people speaking half the time. Actually the stupid soundboard samples are the least annoying part somehow. What the fuck is the deal with all the other bullshit they keep throwing in, like random shitty music noises and playing back the backwards speaking directly on top of the people actually having a conversation. Holy christ, this really infuriated me for some reason. I understand that Jeordie on Josh Freese both have that 'random, zany, psychedelic insanity' sense of humor, but this podcast seems to be the least professional podcast I've ever heard. Has anybody here listened to the rest of the episodes? If so, are they all this shitty and impossible to listen to?

Admin Edit: Split from NIN-Spotting by Leviathant

Hazekiah
04-16-2016, 02:59 AM
I've only recently had a smartphone and the unlimited data to get into the podcast thing, so I'm still catching up on Marc Maron's WTF! and Kevin Smith's Smodcasts, etc. through YT because my phone still sucks.

Unfortunately, I haven't heard the Hour of Goon stuff yet but that sounds a HELL of a lot like Twiggy with his microcassette player on "Donahue" and "Headbanger's Ball" way back in the day, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's him or at least his idea. Lots of fun but maybe not so much when you're trying to listen to what's being said in a podcast, I guess.

:-\

sa_nick
04-16-2016, 05:39 AM
I'm still catching up on Marc Maron's WTF! and Kevin Smith's Smodcasts

Don't miss out on Tell 'Em Steve Dave, it's the best pod on the Smodco network even though it doesn't feature Kev Smith.

EndlessLoveless
04-16-2016, 01:17 PM
People actually like kevin smith? wow. Back to nin....

botley
04-16-2016, 10:50 PM
Christ, I've been meaning to check out this podcast with Jeordie and Fred because I thought it might be interesting. I'm about halfway through this episode and it's fun hearing Jeordie and Josh talking about NIN and APC, but... holy FUCK, whoever is doing the 'zany morning DJ soundboard samples' is absolutely fucking annoying as shit. It doesn't even make sense, it's just a bunch of fucking random, out of place, meaningless noises droning out the people speaking half the time. Actually the stupid soundboard samples are the least annoying part somehow. What the fuck is the deal with all the other bullshit they keep throwing in, like random shitty music noises and playing back the backwards speaking directly on top of the people actually having a conversation. Holy christ, this really infuriated me for some reason. I understand that Jeordie on Josh Freese both have that 'random, zany, psychedelic insanity' sense of humor, but this podcast seems to be the least professional podcast I've ever heard. Has anybody here listened to the rest of the episodes? If so, are they all this shitty and impossible to listen to?

Thanks for your hateful screed about the free entertainment, I guess? Jeordie and Fred do it themselves for no money from what I can gather...

Josh's random namedrop of Danny Lohner was amusing.

thatguymark
04-17-2016, 09:03 AM
Christ, I've been meaning to check out this podcast with Jeordie and Fred because I thought it might be interesting. I'm about halfway through this episode and it's fun hearing Jeordie and Josh talking about NIN and APC, but... holy FUCK, whoever is doing the 'zany morning DJ soundboard samples' is absolutely fucking annoying as shit. It doesn't even make sense, it's just a bunch of fucking random, out of place, meaningless noises droning out the people speaking half the time. Actually the stupid soundboard samples are the least annoying part somehow. What the fuck is the deal with all the other bullshit they keep throwing in, like random shitty music noises and playing back the backwards speaking directly on top of the people actually having a conversation. Holy christ, this really infuriated me for some reason. I understand that Jeordie on Josh Freese both have that 'random, zany, psychedelic insanity' sense of humor, but this podcast seems to be the least professional podcast I've ever heard. Has anybody here listened to the rest of the episodes? If so, are they all this shitty and impossible to listen to?

Yeah - I'm with you 100%. I've listened to one other episode, and it had the same problem. It's just the worst, because it can get bad enough to literally make it impossible to hear the conversation. In this episode, in particular, when they were talking about how Izzy isn't part of the current GNR lineup, I would have liked to have heard their thoughts, but instead, we got a 3 minute impenetrable wall of sound. I don't get it, because, if not for that, I'll be a regular listener to this podcast. Jeordie seems like a cool guy with a lot of great stories, but this is just not listenable.
-

botley
04-17-2016, 10:42 AM
Yeah - I'm with you 100%. I've listened to one other episode, and it had the same problem. It's just the worst, because it can get bad enough to literally make it impossible to hear the conversation. In this episode, in particular, when they were talking about how Izzy isn't part of the current GNR lineup, I would have liked to have heard their thoughts, but instead, we got a 3 minute impenetrable wall of sound. I don't get it, because, if not for that, I'll be a regular listener to this podcast. Jeordie seems like a cool guy with a lot of great stories, but this is just not listenable.
-

Too bad you had to pay all that money and sit through all those ads and drive to a store just to hear it... oh wait...

I was belly laughing during the "wall of noise", no complaints here — this is Josh "iMovie Lightning Bolt" Freese, after all.

Thanks for posting that ninjaw!

kleiner
04-17-2016, 11:03 AM
Too bad you had to pay all that money and sit through all those ads and drive to a store just to hear it... oh wait...

I was belly laughing during the "wall of noise", no complaints here — this is Josh "iMovie Lightning Bolt" Freese, after all.

Thanks for posting that @ninjaw (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=746)!

I find it very unfair to dismiss people's dissatisfaction with something just because it cost them no money. It still cost them interest and time which are arguably a lot more valuable to many people, and it's perfectly fine for someone to be frustrated or disappointed with something that they had interest in that ended up feeling exclusionary or distancing. Personally I find the style of that podcast extremely self-indulgent and that it ruins what could otherwise be a really entertaining or enlightening show, and that opinion is just as valid as someone who enjoys it and finds it right up their alley.

Khrz
04-17-2016, 11:04 AM
Too bad you had to pay all that money and sit through all those ads and drive to a store just to hear it... oh wait...

Yeah you already made your point, but just because something is free doesn't mean people can't criticize it, they're not asking for a refund ffs, they just find the audio quality regrettable for an otherwise pleasant podcast.

thatguymark
04-17-2016, 11:08 AM
Too bad you had to pay all that money and sit through all those ads and drive to a store just to hear it... oh wait...

I was belly laughing during the "wall of noise", no complaints here ó this is Josh "iMovie Lightning Bolt" Freese, after all.

Thanks for posting that @ninjaw (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=746)!

I didn't realize it was impermissible to have an opinion on a product that didn't require payment. If it doesn't bother you, that's cool. I'm glad the podcast has an audience that can enjoy listening to it. I don't like the production, so it's not for me and I won't continue listening. That's all.

botley
04-17-2016, 11:28 AM
No one is denying permission for the butthurt, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is. The audio quality is completely fine, and all the disruptions are intentional. If you think it's unprofessional for friends to clown around and goof with people in a way they are all very well known for doing... maybe try a "professional" podcast instead?

"Cost you interest and time" is the stupidest complaint ó no one tied anyone down and forced them to listen. "Product", my ass! The language of this critique is capitalistic, and yet the complainers didnít actually give up anything in the transaction, and therefore have no leg to stand on. Sorry, back to spotting NIN.

Harry Seaward
04-17-2016, 09:05 PM
No one is denying permission for the butthurt, I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is. The audio quality is completely fine, and all the disruptions are intentional. If you think it's unprofessional for friends to clown around and goof with people in a way they are all very well known for doing... maybe try a "professional" podcast instead?

"Cost you interest and time" is the stupidest complaint — no one tied anyone down and forced them to listen. "Product", my ass! The language of this critique is capitalistic, and yet the complainers didn’t actually give up anything in the transaction, and therefore have no leg to stand on. Sorry, back to spotting NIN.

Well, they're not doing it solely for themselves or for their friends. They're trying to make a professional product, that's why they're all spending every single day pimping the product out on all of their social media accounts. They're putting it out for people to listen to, they're actively trying to push it out into the aether for people to enjoy. They've even partnered with the Feral Audio podcast network to assist in distribution and gain more publicity and attention.

So when creators put out a product for people to consume, constructive criticism comes with the territory. This is how things get better. The product having a personality and style is great, but when that style infringes on the actual content and makes the product actively difficult for people to enjoy, it becomes a real problem. Yes, we all know the "disruptions are intentional" but that isn't the point; it doesn't change the discussion we're having and frankly it makes it worse. It's safe to say that myself and thatguymark aren't the only people who are going to be completely turned away by the poor-quality amateur production style, so it's absolutely worth something to talk about when discussing the product. It's a completely valid criticism and the implication you're giving off that people are only allowed to talk about a product by heaping praise on it is frankly completely stupid.

sick among the pure
04-17-2016, 09:58 PM
If you think it's unprofessional for friends to clown around and goof with people in a way they are all very well known for doing... maybe try a "professional" podcast instead?

I get doing goofy shit like that, it's their style. I LOVED every one of Josh's weird videos, I even chatted with Josh about it in one of the Spiral chats. But when your medium is audio-only, and your "style" drowns out the conversation (it's an interview-based podcast, it's supposed to be conversation first and foremost) it detracts. Heavily. I would love to hear Jordie and Josh talk about their times together, how they met, the mischief they got into on tour. The "who?" echo is funny, and totally fits that weird style they have. But when it is so loud and layered that you don't know who they're even "who?"ing anymore, there's no point.

As to the concept of "it was free, fuck off if you have criticisms about it" attitude, where were you when people criticized The Slip? Or Ghosts?

I wish Trent would start making the news again so we would have more to spot and less time to chat and clutter up this topic.

emptydesk
04-18-2016, 12:15 AM
Everybody stop whining.

botley
04-18-2016, 03:11 AM
Look, I'm going to respond because this is relevant to NIN's changing model of distribution, and they even talked on the show about 'desperate times' for selling music. If NIN announces an album tomorrow, we're all going to be paying to hear it precisely because of this toxic response to artists giving away free shit. You give and give and somehow people are still never satisfied. TR instead has taken a page out of Pere Ubu's book — punk rock capitalism. Buy it and it costs this much, or fuck off!


The implication you're giving off that people are only allowed to talk about a product by heaping praise on it is frankly completely stupid.
Podcasts aren't a product really, though, so that's not my implication at all. If there were any real cost to you, it'd be different and transactional and the customer is always right blah blah blah. But there is an insurmountable problem with artistic criticisms of a disposable and ephemeral freebie broadcast like this. You might as well complain that your HAM radio has too much static for you to enjoy it. There should be no expectation of fulfilment on your end, particularly not framed in the light of "waaaaah, why can't they just make it professional?" Well, because it's not their profession. Posting on social media isn't a job. Selling shit is.



As to the concept of "it was free, fuck off if you have criticisms about it" attitude, where were you when people criticized The Slip? Or Ghosts?
I paid for those records and I liked them, and if I recall correctly I was here on this board telling people that didn't to fuck off.

hobochic
04-18-2016, 03:46 AM
Podcasts aren't a product really, though, so that's not my implication at all. If there were any real cost to you, it'd be different and transactional and the customer is always right blah blah blah. But there is an insurmountable problem with artistic criticisms of a disposable and ephemeral freebie broadcast like this. You might as well complain that your HAM radio has too much static for you to enjoy it.

Or you might as well complain that a music forum contains too much opinion with which you don't agree.
You seem to have an awful lot of free opinion about their opinion without any real cost to you. Hmm.

bobbie solo
04-18-2016, 03:57 AM
usage of the term "butthurt" is a major red flag.

Khrz
04-18-2016, 05:20 AM
There should be no expectation of fulfilment on your end, particularly not framed in the light of "waaaaah, why can't they just make it professional?" Well, because it's not their profession. Posting on social media isn't a job. Selling shit is.

I've been posting "free" art for 15 years, some people like it, some people don't, some praised it, some criticised it, and they're all right doing so. I don't go "suck a dick, it's free".
What they can't do is complain that I display it. But they're definitely entitled to an opinion on the quality and relevance of it no matter what it cost them. You are the one with a capitalistic "pay to say" attitude, here.

Swykk
04-18-2016, 07:29 AM
I think Jeordie and Fred use those effects to cover up stories they're not sure are okay to share at the time. If you notice, most of the time the effects get loud enough to obscure everything, there's a clear "Can we talk about this?" before it happens. Should they just edit out stuff they later deem troublesome? Maybe. But they're trying to put their own flavor on their podcast, which I can respect.

FYI--The unedited Dave Navarro story got shared on last week's Harmontown (my favorite podcast). It was a fucking amazing episode. Aisha Tyler kills.

botley
04-18-2016, 11:20 AM
I've been posting "free" art for 15 years, some people like it, some people don't, some praised it, some criticised it, and they're all right doing so. I don't go "suck a dick, it's free".
What they can't do is complain that I display it. But they're definitely entitled to an opinion on the quality and relevance of it no matter what it cost them. You are the one with a capitalistic "pay to say" attitude, here.
More power to you, I wouldn't have said anything if the people criticizing weren't being so hyperbolic. Enjoy free things on the Web, or don't, but leaving a string of swearwords and insults about it (ie. 'fucking unlistenable', 'the worst') is childish and unfair. In this case I don't think it's coming from a place of constructive critique, but it only boils down to 'I don't get it'. Fine, cool, but the flipside is 'you shouldn't have expected as much'.

Khrz
04-18-2016, 12:04 PM
More power to you, I wouldn't have said anything if the people criticizing weren't being so hyperbolic. Enjoy free things on the Web, or don't, but leaving a string of swearwords and insults about it (ie. 'fucking unlistenable', 'the worst') is childish and unfair. In this case I don't think it's coming from a place of constructive critique, but it only boils down to 'I don't get it'. Fine, cool, but the flipside is 'you shouldn't have expected as much'.

I think you've been taking it too personally, oddly enough.
Arguably, the very first comment was somewhat "blunt" in expressing their frustration. They wanted to enjoy a podcast, and the audio quality was such that they couldn't. "The Worst" is colloquially used hyperbolically to describe the worst configuration in any given situation. I don't think they were saying the podcast was the worst, merely that the situation was.

I'm honestly puzzled by the strength of your reaction, but I guess it was fueled by your own puzzlement.

I saw nothing wrong when people criticized The Slip. It was free, that doesn't mean everyone should either ignore it or enjoy it. As I said, I'm actually thankful that we're not in a society where you have to pay to have an opinion, where as you buy a product you buy an exclusive licence to dislike said product. I find it a very dangerous line of thinking, personally. Our opinion on art, craft, products shouldn't be dependent on the price we paid for it.
Free shit is still shit. You can walk around it, and point out to other "be warned, fellow traveler : that is shit".
People were merely bemoaning the fact that they wish they could listen to a podcast they would otherwise enjoy, I found it constructive. They seemed to enjoy the actual content... It actually intrigued me, yet at the same time I was aware that there were idiosyncrasies that might make it difficult to listen.

botley
04-18-2016, 01:36 PM
Idiosyncracies in a comedy podcast! Heaven forfend!

Khrz
04-18-2016, 02:16 PM
Seriously, in this - now- thread you're the one sounding the most butthurt.
I meant by that that those specific idiosyncrasies seemed detrimental to some listeners' experience. Now since English isn't my first language I might suck at expressing ideas and concepts, but if you're misreading me on purpose you might as well go pout in your corner.
I really can't wrap my head around what puts your panties in a twist about this... Something was mentioned, some people had differing opinions about it, and those people actually said they enjoyed the content.
Even if you were the actual author I'd find your reaction completely overblown, but here I can't even...

Archive_Reports
04-18-2016, 02:22 PM
I find it difficult to believe that there is someone out there that has never complained about a free product or service. Lackluster network TV show ending? Lackluster hand job? Slightly stale free cookie?

kleiner
04-18-2016, 02:24 PM
God @botley (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=469) are you the guy who sets their mics up or something because you're absurdly defensive of something that, in your own words, doesn't matter very much and is silly to get so worked up over. Like, great, you like it but that doesn't mean anyone with displeasure or issues with it should be thoroughly hand-wavingly dismissed because who the hell are they to comment on it. If you put something out there publicly with the intent of getting it consumed by others then it is completely and totally fair for people to develop opinions of it and, yes, some of them may be negative, and that's fine. You're just coming across as extremely concerned about policing other people's feelings about a podcast and are acting like you're the authority on what people are allowed to think about it, and it's not at all like what I've come to expect from you around here and is extremely unusual. Of all the hills to plant your flag and die on, this is a pretty ridiculous one to do it at.

Harry Seaward
04-18-2016, 04:13 PM
Look, I'm going to respond because this is relevant to NIN's changing model of distribution, and they even talked on the show about 'desperate times' for selling music. If NIN announces an album tomorrow, we're all going to be paying to hear it precisely because of this toxic response to artists giving away free shit. You give and give and somehow people are still never satisfied. TR instead has taken a page out of Pere Ubu's book — punk rock capitalism. Buy it and it costs this much, or fuck off!

Well, the thing is, Trent isn't always correct and he isn't always calm and collected. He has a temper and he takes things very personally. This is evidenced by the fact that he rage quit the entire internet because of the same trolls that every other musician and celebrity has been trained to blow off and ignore. Personally, I think Trent is going to continue charging for albums because he released the Slip/Ghosts method of doing things wasn't sustainable financially, but let's speak under your premise that he's going to charge money because "of this toxic response to artists giving away free shit."

Like with this Hour of Goon podcast, people weren't "being toxic" and shitting on The Slip because it was free. I think where you're on a different level than everybody else here is that you think the price of a product should factor into the opinion forming process of the consumers. It doesn't and absolutely shouldn't. Nobody was shitting on the fact that Trent released a surprise album that was free. That had absolutely nothing to do with the criticisms. People were shitting on the Slip because they personally didn't enjoy it. That's all. The price of the product did not enter their mind when forming this opinion. If Trent's thought process truly was, "It's free so who are these people to openly shit on it?!" then well, he's wrong and that's an emotional misguided reaction on his part.


Podcasts aren't a product really, though, so that's not my implication at all. If there were any real cost to you, it'd be different and transactional and the customer is always right blah blah blah. But there is an insurmountable problem with artistic criticisms of a disposable and ephemeral freebie broadcast like this. You might as well complain that your HAM radio has too much static for you to enjoy it. There should be no expectation of fulfilment on your end, particularly not framed in the light of "waaaaah, why can't they just make it professional?" Well, because it's not their profession. Posting on social media isn't a job. Selling shit is.

Podcasts are a product. There may be a few people who do them as a hobby, but the overwhelming majority of well-known and celebrity-run podcasts are running ads and making money. It's a safe assumption to know that Hour of Goon will be opening up to advertisers if/when they amass a larger audience base. This particular podcast isn't selling ad space yet, but that doesn't mean it's not a product. There is an expectation of fulfillment in everything somebody creates and asks people to listen to/watch/read/etc. If somebody puts out a product for money, it's reasonable to say, "Wow, this is seriously awful. I want my money back." If somebody puts out a product for free, it's reasonable to say, "Wow, has anybody else listened to this? It's fucking awful." When Jeordie and Fred are asking you to listen, that comes with inherent inescapable consequences. If people like it, they'll spread the word. And if people hate it, they'll spread that word too. You can't have one without the other.

Like everybody else in this thread is telling you, it's okay to openly dislike things. Even things that were free. If Jeordie and Fred were in a park handing out peanut butter and jelly and anchovy sandwiches, I'd go tell them - 'Hey, these fucking suck. Stop putting on anchovies and people will fucking love them.'

emptydesk
04-18-2016, 04:56 PM
There are no models or standards for podcasts. I listen to podcasts that are essentially radio broadcasts, podcasts that are an iphone mic recording a conversation, and podcasts that are lo-fi plunderphonics and collages.

Whether or not you like the Hour of Goon podcast's production choices is simply a matter of personal taste. I enjoy it.

Harry Seaward
04-18-2016, 05:20 PM
Whether or not you like the Hour of Goon podcast's production choices is simply a matter of personal taste. I enjoy it.

Uh yeah, that's what we're all discussing here. Whether or not we like it and whether or not opinions are allowed in regard to free products.

botley
04-18-2016, 06:22 PM
HERE NOTHING IS ALLOWED WITHOUT PAYMENT IN BLOOD.

Uh yeah, that's what we're all discussing here. Whether or not we like it and whether or not opinions are allowed in regard to free products.
Your opinion is welcome, of course, but it's still wrong. This was a totally misplaced quibble in NIN Spotting, and I am sorry it was dragged out this far to warrant a split into so much silliness. I was nonetheless taken aback by your blowing up at wilfully choosing to download and listen to a free podcast. In fact, far as I can tell, there were disclaimers all along about exactly what you were going to get. It's advertised as being "absurd", "weird", etc. and this all is perfectly aligned with what Josh & Jeordie are well known for doing online. So... turn it off, delete it, and move on with your life? Sorry for poking below the surface. This is my Waterloo!

Harry Seaward
04-18-2016, 06:47 PM
HERE NOTHING IS ALLOWED WITHOUT PAYMENT IN BLOOD.

Your opinion is welcome, of course, but it's still wrong. This was a totally misplaced quibble in NIN Spotting, and I am sorry it was dragged out this far to warrant a split into so much silliness. I was nonetheless taken aback by your blowing up at wilfully choosing to download and listen to a free podcast. In fact, far as I can tell, there were disclaimers all along about exactly what you were going to get. It's advertised as being "absurd", "weird", etc. and this all is perfectly aligned with what Josh & Jeordie are well known for doing online. So... turn it off, delete it, and move on with your life? Sorry for poking below the surface. This is my Waterloo!

Well I mean, being advertised as absurd or weird gives people the expectation that the content itself will be weird and strange, which I was expecting. I've watched my fair share of Twiggy interviews, I know full well how weird he can be, and it's definitely funny and endearing at times. But the actual production of the audio itself being so weird as to completely block out the content is another story entirely.

And as a side note, you keep mentioning Josh Freese in the context of the weirdness, but the podcast is run by Jeordie and Fred Sablan. From what I'm understanding, most/every episode of the podcast has this insufferable sound effect issue, so I think the Josh Freese connection is irrelevant. He just happened to be a guest on the particular episode I listened to.

Also, I'm glad the admins split this into a separate thread instead of just deleting the posts. I think it's a fun and interesting topic that deserves a little back and forth discussion, assuming everyone can remain civil.

sick among the pure
04-18-2016, 08:09 PM
I paid for those records and I liked them, and if I recall correctly I was here on this board telling people that didn't to fuck off.
I think most of us here paid for it. We're crazy obsessive NIN collector fans. It was still something that was offered for free.

Well, since this got split off anyway, may as well actually have a discussion.
What are your thoughts on the other 9/10ths of my post?

No art should ever be free from any criticism. The quality of the criticism is important, though.

botley
04-18-2016, 09:19 PM
What are your thoughts on the other 9/10ths of my post?

No art should ever be free from any criticism. The quality of the criticism is important, though.
I think the quality of criticism depends largely on the context provided, and when one ignores the fact that the work critiqued is freely distributed from a conveniently accessible source, the contextual 'emptiness' brought to the table on the part of the critic is what galls me, really. Especially when it's unacknowledged in the criticism itself. This is rampant on social media.

As for the rest of your original post? I thought the point of comedy podcasts was to incite laughter, and personally I laughed at the goofiness of it. It wasn't just madness either, they consistently use classic music nerd pulls for comedic value: prime example, the vocal track from "Running with the Devil" pitched at a weird speed in a peripheral background level whenever they talked about David Lee Roth.

hobochic
04-19-2016, 12:58 AM
I think the quality of criticism depends largely on the context provided, and when one ignores the fact that the work critiqued is freely distributed from a conveniently accessible source, the contextual 'emptiness' brought to the table on the part of the critic is what galls me, really. Especially when it's unacknowledged in the criticism itself. This is rampant on social media.

Sorry to say but you're blowing this way out of proportion and overanalyzing the "context provided with contextual emptiness".

It's a podcast and it sounds annoying during a few short moments. Big deal, it's fun anyway.

Khrz
04-19-2016, 08:25 AM
It's a podcast and it sounds annoying during a few short moments. Big deal, it's fun anyway.

If anything it made me aware of the existence of that podcast, intrigued about it, and I subscribed to it so... Win ?