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fillow
03-22-2016, 05:28 AM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/brussels-airport-explosion-terror-attack-7605045

Explosions in the Zaventem airport and in the metro.


I wonder if it's any sort or retaliation for the capture of Paris attack suspects? (Which happened just recently in Brussels)

reznovka
03-22-2016, 05:39 AM
Just read it in my newsfeed and I guess you're right about the terrorist thing...fucked up world. My wife is waiting for a call of a friend who visited a concert yesterday...and we thought about going there too.
My thoughts are with the families who lost a loved one, because some assholes feel the urge to kill for a non existing god.

Nyx
03-22-2016, 05:53 AM
Death toll is climbing (over 20 now). Fucked up. This is becoming the new normal.

reznovka
03-22-2016, 06:24 AM
Death toll is climbing (over 20 now). Fucked up. This is becoming the new normal.

Sad to say, but you're right.

Jinsai
03-22-2016, 06:27 AM
I can't even process it anymore. I don't even know why they're doing this, or what message they're trying to spread. OK, you have my attention, what is the fucking reason you're murdering innocent people?! WHY?!

fillow
03-22-2016, 07:22 AM
I think I was at the site of metro attack (at the street though, not inside) a few years back when I was in Belgium. We came to a festival there in 2013 (NIN were playing) and spent few days in Brussels, and walked a lot around Euro Parliament buildings and nearby streets. Beautiful place. (We came through different airport though).

Hoping our fellow ETSers from Belgium are okay. Condolences to the victims and families.

Deepvoid
03-22-2016, 07:36 AM
Just woke up to this news. Glued to the TV but gotta get to work. This is so sad. It's becoming extremely difficult to put efforts into trying to understand what's the deal with these people.

tony.parente
03-22-2016, 08:10 AM
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t35.0-12/12896371_10153569347852831_455574846_o.jpg?oh=a169 8dca527c3dcbe57faed2c8419370&oe=56F348B6

I'm so sick and tired of religion and i'm sick and tired of people willing to die and take other peoples lives for it.

Khrz
03-22-2016, 08:45 AM
My thoughts are with the families who lost a loved one, because some assholes feel the urge to kill for a non existing god.

I don't know if this is cynicism or naivety on my part, but I don't think anybody's killing anyone in the name of god. It's about power, pressure, blackmail, revenge, payback... Whether there is a god or not, in this case he is reduced to a convenient narrative, carrot and stick.

The guys in the Bataclan said it was payback for Syria, for instance.

Edit : Also I'm getting extremely tired to hear the same old "those guys aren't real believers, this isn't islam".
Look, there is one standard measure to what a religion is and isn't. Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, all provide a pretty clear and undeniable definition of what they are, and it's written black on white in their respective books. Whatever your religion is, it comes with a clear user manual. That's what your religion is. If that manual says to stone homosexuals to death, if it says to murder the unbeliever, if it says to burn the adulterous, this is also what your religion is. If you start to nitpick, then you're not a "true" believer any more than the psycho next door is, and he is no less a "true" believer than you are.
You want your religion to be "not that" ? Write a new manual.

Volband
03-22-2016, 09:19 AM
And this will be yet another crisis, which will show how utterly powerless the EU is, when it comes to taking any kind of action. Same old story until it happens again in ~6 months. I just hope Facebook will be all the smarter and skip the "change your profile picture" clown-movement. Not only it was ridiculous the first time around, Turkey has been on the end of these attacks for the last few months yet they got barely any mentions.

Anyway, I hope every prime ministers in the EU will tell the Belgian people in the coming hours and days that they are really devastated by this totally unexpected, out of the blue attack. If we have this useless pile of shit political machine which is the EU, might as well go all the way again to be pretentious dicks.

As for religion, don't act like Christianity and their God were not the reason for hundreds of wars, slaughtering people left and right "in the name of God." Open up a history book about Europe and chances are high that you will read about a rivalry, war, dethroning, etc. because of religious reasons. Anyway, back to my Facebook feed, reading about how we should snipe all the migrants approaching our border. What a time to be alive!

Khrz
03-22-2016, 10:00 AM
If we have this useless pile of shit political machine which is the EU, might as well go all the way again to be pretentious dicks.

It's not so much a political machine as an economic one. Of course it's going to be politically inept : it's not wired that way, and nobody wants it to be anyway. It's there to facilitate commercial exchanges in Europe, it's not a socio-political federation. It's nothing like the US government, it's a continental TTIP.
Of course economical decisions are going to bleed through into political and social territories, money is the blood of the world we live in. But beyond economical concerns, they have absolutely no power to enforce or direct political decisions in the EU. They can argue, threaten, advise and babble, that's all.

reznovka
03-22-2016, 10:03 AM
I don't know if this is cynicism or naivety on my part, but I don't think anybody's killing anyone in the name of god. It's about power, pressure, blackmail, revenge, payback... Whether there is a god or not, in this case he is reduced to a convenient narrative, carrot and stick.

The guys in the Bataclan said it was payback for Syria, for instance.



I may have used the wrongs words. I meant to say "for power, money, out of stupidity and under the name of a (in my opinion) non existing god".
But you still got the point ;)

PS: I still have some hope for the EU and even if I may be blind for the truth I hope we can manage the refugee situation and stick together in times of terror.

Volband
03-22-2016, 11:04 AM
It's not so much a political machine as an economic one. Of course it's going to be politically inept : it's not wired that way, and nobody wants it to be anyway. It's there to facilitate commercial exchanges in Europe, it's not a socio-political federation. It's nothing like the US government, it's a continental TTIP.
Of course economical decisions are going to bleed through into political and social territories, money is the blood of the world we live in. But beyond economical concerns, they have absolutely no power to enforce or direct political decisions in the EU. They can argue, threaten, advise and babble, that's all.
Is this how you see it? Being from France, it might be unimagineable for you that the EU is trying to force your government to do anything, no one would dare to do that, but my country for example has been the center of constant EU threats and sanctions ever since our new government formed in 2010. I'm far from being a supporter of said government, but it was ridiculous when the EU was riding the "Hungary is oppressing the freedom of speech, hurr-durr!!". Or the migrant question: EU was constantly mocking us for our goverment's migrant politics, then when it was their time to prove how it's supposed to be done they crashed and burned and still not come up with a reasonable solution to the crisis. EU is great if you are France or Germany because you can push every smaller countries around, and you get to enjoy the best of double-standards. While economically it might be beneficial for smaller countries like mine (though recent years have made the average citizen wanting to get out of the EU more and more, seeing their shenanigans) there is always a price.

Let's face it, the EU absolutely failed to protect their borders then absolutely failed to come up with a working plan to integrate the migrants, whom they first welcomed with open hands, then got second thoughts, but the political pressure was too much by then. Hell, the EU has failed every single time a crisis arised. It's not much more useful than the one we had before WW2 happened. Their only luck is that this time they are choking the smaller countries and not one like Germany, and that we live in a different world. Europe is getting eaten alive from the inside, and the only unsatisfied country which holds any weight compared to France and Germany is the UK, and hopefully they will leave this sunking ship ASAP. Before that happens, it is very unlikely that any smaller country would dare to be the first. It wouldn't even achieve anything. "Oh no, Slovenia left the EU! Help!"

In a perfect world, European countries should solve their national problems alone, without any other country barking into how to do it, and in case a crisis which affects more European countries, let alone Europe in its entirety, then the EU should step on their heels and solve it asap and by all means necessary. Right now, we are in 2016, where months after it was known that Brussels was planned to be attacked, and a day after the alarms were raised, something like this could happen. A shame. Right now, as a European citizen, you have two choice: 1. keep voting these weakling people into office, so at least you can get to choose who will talk (just talk) about fighting terrorism, or 2. vote for the radical right wing, who might solve the current issues, but are so out of their minds they would create a hundred more, and I don't even see them capable of leading a country in a healthy way.

I just turned on my TV. Our prime minister said we must fight terrorism and he raised the terror-alert level for now. Maybe it's like in Captain Planet. If every prime ministers in the EU will say the same thing just a bit rephrased, we will summon Captain Anti-Terrorism who will do our job instead of us.
Meh, I know the Iraqian war got a lot of criticism and I'm not saying we should do something like that, but please, for a second, I'd like to know what it feels like to have a quasi big brother who doesn't let anyone to fuck around with his family. But no, all we get is the European Hunger Games. Can't wait for the Eastern-Europe edition! Feeling a bit left out...

Khrz
03-22-2016, 11:22 AM
Let's face it, the EU absolutely failed to protect their borders then absolutely failed to come up with a working plan to integrate the migrants

Because it's not its job.
And yeah, there will be economical pressures over political decisions, I don't deny that. All I'm saying is that the EU isn't a political apparatus, and isn't built to face that kind of crisis. Everyone's trying to make it so, which is like trying to nail planks together by hammering them with a power drill. Sure, that's one way to do it, a very inefficient one.
And the UK can afford to leave the EU because it has always kept a foot out of the door from the beginning. They have a lot less to lose than any other nation involved, Germany and France included.
I agree, there are nations, like mine, who try to strong arms recent, "smaller" member nations into submission. But in the end, every country remained sovereign, and their policies are theirs to decide and enforce.

profane
03-22-2016, 11:42 AM
Just when the right wing was starting to slightly crumble this happens. They're going to abuse the shit out of this.

reznovka
03-22-2016, 11:44 AM
[...] Or the migrant question: EU was constantly mocking us for our goverment's migrant politics, then when it was their time to prove how it's supposed to be done they crashed and burned and still not come up with a reasonable solution to the crisis. EU is great if you are France or Germany because you can push every smaller countries around, and you get to enjoy the best of double-standards. While economically it might be beneficial for smaller countries like mine (though recent years have made the average citizen wanting to get out of the EU more and more, seeing their shenanigans) there is always a price.

[...]

I see your point and as a german I have to admit that Merkel is playing boss in the EU, but at least she tries to save human lives and won't let them starve outside the EU, unlike a lot of other countries.
It's hard to see how we treat Greece and other countries and that we are now making deals with Erdogan, just to keep the refugees outside.
The EU isn't what I hoped it might bring in times of crisis, but it's better than a Europe where every country has to stand on ist own.
But I am still afraid of what the future might bring.

Your Name Here
03-22-2016, 12:13 PM
.....................

Volband
03-22-2016, 12:19 PM
I see your point and as a german I have to admit that Merkel is playing boss in the EU, but at least she tries to save human lives and won't let them starve outside the EU, unlike a lot of other countries.
It's hard to see how we treat Greece and other countries and that we are now making deals with Erdogan, just to keep the refugees outside.
The EU isn't what I hoped it might bring in times of crisis, but it's better than a Europe where every country has to stand on ist own.
But I am still afraid of what the future might bring.
As much as I'm overall a pro-migrant, there has to be a line. Saving human lives does not mean much when the same human lives sexually assault your own people. The big question is who are those who are actually in crisis, and who are those who are just opportunistic. The solution hsould not be to let everyone in and let them fuck your country up, and in response, let the right wing side have a free ticket in abusing it. You let in the women, the children and the elderly. They are tameable and they won't try to assault (sexually or otherwise) anyone. You obviously seperate women and women with children, as the former would be the only ones who might cause some trouble.

Then you can start checking the backgrounds of husbands whose wife and children were taken into the EU, and if the search comes up showing that they are worthy of asylum, then you let the husband in, if not, show him the way back home - the mother and child(ren) would have the option to remain. Then lastly, you'd check into the young males, knowing 90%+ of them will be sent back. Hell, maybe even fabricate evidence that they are not worthy of asylum when they actually are - there is a limit to what a continent which has always had trouble with nationalities can accept in. I'm making a wild guess that even if you'd only let the women and children in, you would already go over your limit. But as I said, you can integrate them, opposed to the 20 something males.I could respect Merkel (or any other European leader) if she was practical instead of trying to put up a facade. Merkel could choose between Black and Grey, but no, she aimed at the Nobel Peace Prize and she went with the unaccaptable White.

I remember visiting our capital city back then. Migrants everywhere, couldn't even move. I didn't know better, so I choose the subway route to the train station, and to my horror, migrants after migrants after migrants... a huge, big, living mass of people, nothing I have ever seen before. And I was walking through the narrow little way they left open while drinking my Coke from McDonald's with a visible stuffed backpack on me. I was the very definition of "free kill." Migrants rioted in their shelter camps and many Hungarian people were quite agitated, and given how we have a strong right wing presence, it would not have neded well for anyone involved. My prime minister went with option Black, booting out everyone, men, women, children. I wasn't a fan of that, I'm still advocating for Grey, but since then, our cities have been freed up, and I'm just reading the news about which country had its fellow woman or little girl sexually assaulted this time. "The Advanced West" or so they say.

Merkel was weak, and her only strength was to stubbornly keep on fighting for the utopia, whch is the equivalent of me saying something stupid, and instead of admitting it, I'd just try to brute force it through. I guess 1+1=3 if you really put your mind to it. The only reason I am somewhat pitying her, is that these terror actions are always blamed on the migrants by the public which is not really fair, or at all. And as I said, everyone knew Brussel was planned to be attacked, so regardless of the question by whom, failing to protect the city paints a grim, grim future for Western-Europe.

I mean, basically we just silently agreed now that it's not the EUs job to solve this. Then we are back to square nothing, checking our favorite news feeds to see whether it's today that another W-European country got attacked. And while we wait, there is the migrant crisis to keep us entertained; less flashy than explosions, but our grandchildren will totally dig the fact that we can tell them about how we had seen through the slow, silent collapse of Europe! Not as cool as our grandparents war stories, but it is something.


Yes its shit like this that will make President Trump a reality especially closer to election time, and if that happens we all might want to think about moving to Australia to avoid the nuclear fallout of World War III. Terrorists don't scare me but President Trump does.
What happened in Brussels is horrible but I just feel like this is leading up to something really bad. The American political climate mixing with this consistent terror attack climate is a real scary state of affairs.
It really seems like it's up to the USA or Russia to save Europe, because our politicians clearly not give any fucks about what's been happening in recent years. They are just trying to win the popularity contest.

Khrz
03-22-2016, 12:22 PM
Terrorists don't scare me but President Trump does.

I'm way more scared of terrorists, to be honest. If anything (and that's my opinion, not an objective analysis), Trump is some sort of Nixon 2.0. That's not good, but that's not WWIII material. On the other hand, all the major terrorist organizations have been actively trying to get their hands on NBC material to up the ante.
Trump doesn't want to blow up the world, he wants to isolate the US. Meanwhile, the terrorists are trying very hard to find ways to nuke everyone.

Your Name Here
03-22-2016, 12:35 PM
................

Exocet
03-22-2016, 12:54 PM
Terrible...but I was not shocked when i read this headline this morning.
I agree this WILL become the new normal. I think the biggest problem is Kalashnikovs and Semtex being smuggled through Europe from the Middle East.
The Schengen agreement will be totally dead by years end.

Last month British intelligence intercepted 30 Kalashnikov rifles in Czech Republic which were headed for the U.K.
The UK is fast becoming like Israel...in terms of surveillance....boarder security is immense now.

I really see the EU collapsing...

I dread this summers Football tournament Euro 2016 in France. Security will be so tight.

DigitalChaos
03-22-2016, 01:14 PM
security theatre strikes again, yet that's what will be increased.


The airport security points creates a huge backlog of people. Anyone can walk up with a giant suitcase.

That's exactly what happened at the airport:

http://i.imgur.com/oN42YK5.jpg

reznovka
03-22-2016, 03:21 PM
As much as I'm overall a pro-migrant, there has to be a line. [...]

But for Germany it's hard to draw a line, because of our history and I am absolutely pro migrant and even I know that there will be people stealing, raping and murdering people, but who can say who will do such things and who won't?
In Germany we have a saying:"You just can take a look on the head, not inside." and as stupid as it may sound, it's still true.
A lot of refugees come without identity cards or passports, some lost it and other threw it away to be able to say that they are from Syria, but it's hard to tell.
I don't have a solution for the problem, but I still believe that open borders are better than closed ones.
I may be wrong, but at this moment I feel this way.
FYI: there is a school with approx. 300 refugees about 200 meters away from my house and I see them every day when I go to work and walk my dog. Nothing happened in my town so far and I think 99% of the people who left their country won't do any harm. They left because of people like the ones who bombed Brussels today. At least that's my opinion.

Jinsai
03-22-2016, 03:45 PM
As for religion, don't act like Christianity and their God were not the reason for hundreds of wars, slaughtering people left and right "in the name of God." Open up a history book about Europe and chances are high that you will read about a rivalry, war, dethroning, etc. because of religious reasons. Anyway, back to my Facebook feed, reading about how we should snipe all the migrants approaching our border. What a time to be alive!

Oh yeah, Christianity WAS responsible for a lot of horrible shit. In the past. Now it's (for the most part) quaint and adorable. The worst thing Christianty does nowadays is convince the most ardent extremists to support Ted Cruz.

I'm NOT saying Islam is to blame here, but let's not draw false equivalencies between religions. That's just as simplistic as pointing the finger at a religion and just pinning the blame there.

EDIT: *not saying

reznovka
03-22-2016, 04:38 PM
They use the Islam as a reason but I think they are just poorly educated people who need a world view that's simpler and a religion with those books full of stories which were written by people thousand years ago, with the wish to control people and explain a complex world without science, is a great start for that.
Christianity had its crusades, witch burnings and supporting Hitler and now the suppress the LGBTQ scene and act against condoms, so AIDS keeps on spreading.
I'm living in the part of Germany where a lot of foreigners came to work after WWII and stayed and now we have a multi cultural society here. I work with people from Marokko, Turkey, Egypt, Italy and Croatia and all the muslims hate the IS and all the other terrorists. It's not the religion itself, but stupid arseholes who use this religion as an excuse for their hate and stupidity. They could've chosen Christianity as well.

Volband
03-22-2016, 05:01 PM
But for Germany it's hard to draw a line, because of our history and I am absolutely pro migrant and even I know that there will be people stealing, raping and murdering people, but who can say who will do such things and who won't?
In Germany we have a saying:"You just can take a look on the head, not inside." and as stupid as it may sound, it's still true.
A lot of refugees come without identity cards or passports, some lost it and other threw it away to be able to say that they are from Syria, but it's hard to tell.
I don't have a solution for the problem, but I still believe that open borders are better than closed ones.
I may be wrong, but at this moment I feel this way.
FYI: there is a school with approx. 300 refugees about 200 meters away from my house and I see them every day when I go to work and walk my dog. Nothing happened in my town so far and I think 99% of the people who left their country won't do any harm. They left because of people like the ones who bombed Brussels today. At least that's my opinion.
That's just anecdotal evidence. A collateral damage is happening to Europe and it is undenyable. Also, killing, raping, physically abusing our, well, YOUR citizens is just one of the side effects. In my story, did I get knifed or robbed? No. Did I feel safe? No. And that is the bottom line. There are situations where you need to be selfish. If you lead a nation, then you better be biased towards your own citizen. Me not feeling safe is simply not acceptable in a modern European country. Compared to W-Europe, I'm getting a shitty salary, my workplace safety is close to non-existent, and my own government trying to lock me up in this shithole. The least they can do is that if I arrive to our capital city I don't immidietly look for alternate routes so I don't have to crawl through the hungry, unsatisfied herd of people who do not understand a single word I speak and vice versa. And no, in this case, I don't care what happens with Assaf, 23 years old, coming here for some stellar jobs and the promise of having a nice house and what not.

And that is so not true that we can't go ahead of these atrocities. Why couldn't we?! We let in:
Elders: They can't even do anything. In the old times they would have been the last to be granted allowance anywhere, but it's the 21st century, so we let them in and grant them their graceful last years. I doubht there are that much elders though.
Children: A 3 years old won't knock you out cold in a dark alley, that's for sure. You can also streamline them into your customs, your traditions. There are countries, like ours, where the low birth rates are actually quite alarming, so, free babies? Yes please!
Mothers: If you take in the children you should take in their mothers as well, everyone wins by this. If they only arrived by their father, then take the fathers. They might not be the best work force, but they have a reason to sit put and don't stirr trouble. If you and your children gets an easy job, free meals and a free house, you won't seek trouble risking it all.
Women: I don't think there are much single women among the migrants, but you can't lose much by letting them in. They are a capable wrok force, might settle down with someone from your country, but most importantly, low risk factor.

As for the majority of the migrants, which are men in their 20s, you make a very strict quota for each country and let them in accordingly. You don't let in gangs, and groups of 20 friends, you deliberately separate them from each other to be as isolated as they can be. You send them to basic, monotone factory work, and those who are serious about being integrated, will eventually have the chance to move forwards, those who thought they will live here for free get an easy ticket back to where they came from. The rest can either turn back, and make impressions of the walkers from The Walking Dead alongside of the fence. It's starting to get hot, and humans can't take dehydration too long. If the world has a problem with that, then the rich Arabian countries, Turkey, Russia and the USA are more than welcome to chip in and show us how humanity is done. But if they can only talk then yes, watch as they drop dead. As sad it is, nothing can be more important for an individual than their lives, and nothing can be more important to a nation than their integrity. To the doubters, once again, history books.

Now, could any political party pull it through? I don't know, as soon as someone would even hypothetically say that yes guys, if we value our own nations, we might have to let some of these poor souls die if other, non-European countries won't help, he or she would get ass-blasted from all angle. But at least Merkel showed us, that going the complete opposite way is just as disastrous, it just needed time to catch fire.

And we did not even talk about one thing. Well, we partially talked about it, mentioning the radical right wing, but every single political fraction are trying to use the migrant crisis to get ahead. To them, it's just politics, but if herds the sheep around. In my country there is (well, was, now it settled down a bit, but after these events, it'll surely start again) a propaganda, money by the government which airs 0-24 that we are not letting the EU take away our country and force us to give up our jobs to migrants, etc. Now, you can shake your head, but that is what people want to hear, that is how you reach out to the sheeps. We had an incident where a 100% Hungarian girl (university student) was beaten by Hungarian boys, because she was walking with her boyfriend who happened to be colored. The boyfriend was not a migrant, he was Hungarian actually. It's funny, but don't think it won't happen anywhere. People did not need a reason to hate others to begin with, but after the happenings of the last 365 days, such incident will be everywhere if you let even more refugees in. And spoiler alert: YOU will let more refugees in.

Oh yeah, Christianity WAS responsible for a lot of horrible shit. In the past. Now it's (for the most part) quaint and adorable. The worst thing Christianty does nowadays is convince the most ardent extremists to support Ted Cruz.

I'm saying Islam is to blame here, but let's not draw false equivalencies between religions. That's just as simplistic as pointing the finger at a religion and just pinning the blame there.
Yeah, I just thought it was a bit funny that people wonder how a religion can be so damn evil, when a few hundred years ago we were doing the same. We reached the seemingly pinnacle of modern civilization with ancient religions being as accepted and even encouraged as they are today. Don't act surprised when you suddenly need to somehow eradicate a religion, and you hit a million brick walls. We are eating what we cooked - and that's not just for the religion part.

Volband
03-22-2016, 05:06 PM
They use the Islam as a reason but I think they are just poorly educated people who need a world view that's simpler and a religion with those books full of stories which were written by people thousand years ago, with the wish to control people and explain a complex world without science, is a great start for that.
Christianity had its crusades, witch burnings and supporting Hitler and now the suppress the LGBTQ scene and act against condoms, so AIDS keeps on spreading.
I'm living in the part of Germany where a lot of foreigners came to work after WWII and stayed and now we have a multi cultural society here. I work with people from Marokko, Turkey, Egypt, Italy and Croatia and all the muslims hate the IS and all the other terrorists. It's not the religion itself, but stupid arseholes who use this religion as an excuse for their hate and stupidity. They could've chosen Christianity as well.
Exactly. If I wanted to get a mental breakdown I'd visit a christian group where they are discussing the evil nature of Islam. I can already see myself shaking uncontrollably, while trying to hold back talking about when we had more popes at once, when we locked one away, when christianity split apart, when we waged holy wars, when Henry VIII made his own freaking religion (that guy was a badass though, he totally ridiculued everything religion stood for, but could sell it to his people as real), when we were burning witches and actual scientists who were ahead of their time, when we were.... ugh. I love European history, but if it taught me anything, then it's that Hitler has nothing on christianity.

(edit: Imagine if I could press the edit button instead of reply. I blame the migrants, obviously.)

Khrz
03-22-2016, 05:13 PM
We reached the seemingly pinnacle of modern civilization with ancient religions being as accepted and even encouraged as they are today.

Ahahahah, I don't know about Hungary, but no. That's part of the problem, it's that we got the catholics to just do their thing in the comfort of their own home and just shut the fuck up otherwise for 50 years now. Which is why we are a little be taken aback when suddenly religious people are making demands. We're really not used to this. So we treated them just like we treated the other ones : we laughed at their face.
They didn't like it one bit though.

Volband
03-22-2016, 05:35 PM
Ahahahah, I don't know about Hungary, but no. That's part of the problem, it's that we got the catholics to just do their thing in the comfort of their own home and just shut the fuck up otherwise for 50 years now. Which is why we are a little be taken aback when suddenly religious people are making demands. We're really not used to this. So we treated them just like we treated the other ones : we laughed at their face.
They didn't like it one bit though.
I kinda meant that it's treated perfectly normal that some dude just put you in here (the same dude who was fine with the atacks in Paris and Brussels btw), but if you follow let's say Scientology then you are a madman who fell for a scam.

Oh, and we are absolutely blindfounded that exists a religion which totally hates on christianity. Like, how dare they? Jesus Christ >>> Muhammad, fite me irl!!

reznovka
03-22-2016, 06:16 PM
I love European history, but if it taught me anything, then it's that Hitler has nothing on christianity.

The priests blessed the soldiers and that's way too much for a peaceful religion.

Sallos
03-22-2016, 08:33 PM
France had about approximately 1000, if im not mistaken, young people who went to syria and iraq, received training and got extremist indoctrination and returned to France, back to their home terrorist nests in the outskirts of the big cities. Belgium apparently had about 300. 1000 and 300 terrorists and potential terrorists were allowed to return back to recruit more terrorists and plot terrorist attacks on European soil. If this isn't major incompetence i don't know what is. Those people should've lost their citizenship the moment they signed up with ISIS.

Exocet
03-22-2016, 08:59 PM
It was actually over 500 Belgian citizens who left to join Isis. Belgium has 11 Million People. Highest per capita in Europe by far.
Both the U.K and France have 65 Million people almost identical populations.... about 1.500 from France went to join Isis, and around 700 from the U.K left to join ISIS. And also about 700 Germans left too

UK and France have roughly 6 times the population of Belguim its sort of 7.500 French citizens leaving to join Isis. Give you a bit of perspective.

Then you add an under developed security service..i reckon there will be another attack really soon. The terrorists are being protected, its obvious Belgian security teams have no idea what they are doing.
They still have not found the Paris bomb maker either. There are obviously loads of sleeper cells.

elevenism
03-22-2016, 10:00 PM
This IS becoming the new normal.
People used to say that the world was going crazy, and i was forever telling them that it has ALWAYS been crazy and bringing up past atrocities.
But now, things are SO fucking volatile. We have psychotic murderers killing people in the name of their movement or their church or their state or because their app told them to do so.
Mass killings are accelerating and shocking people less and less.
It breaks my fucking heart, and my prayers are with the dead, the wounded, and their families.
Goddamnit, i hadn't read the news because i'm dealing with personal struggles, and now i'm crying.

It's like Jinsai was saying. How in the fuck does murdering innocent people with hopes, dreams, loves, fears...how does this accomplish anything for anyone?

DigitalChaos
03-23-2016, 01:58 AM
This IS becoming the new normal.
People used to say that the world was going crazy, and i was forever telling them that it has ALWAYS been crazy and bringing up past atrocities.
But now, things are SO fucking volatile. We have psychotic murderers killing people in the name of their movement or their church or their state or because their app told them to do so.
Mass killings are accelerating and shocking people less and less.

Er, no. There has never been a more peaceful time in recorded history. People are being killed at record low rates. You are just more connected to world news now.

Step back and gain perspective. This is the reactionary emotional mindset that pulls us into 9/11 style mistakes.

Exocet
03-23-2016, 02:18 AM
Er, no. There has never been a more peaceful time in recorded history. People are being killed at record low rates. You are just more connected to world news now.

Step back and gain perspective. This is the reactionary emotional mindset that pulls us into 9/11 style mistakes.

But you cant deny something new is happening in Europe either...its has to be confronted rather than be repressed and shoved under the carpet.
That was Obamas stance...im sorry but i fucking hated his foreign policy..this deluded denial

reznovka
03-23-2016, 05:22 AM
Er, no. There has never been a more peaceful time in recorded history. People are being killed at record low rates.

Found some statistics to show you're right.
There was always terror and killings but most of us were young or not even born then and thanks to the internet we have way more information than back then.

http://www.watson.ch/imgdb/0c5f/Qx,A,0,0,610,475,254,197,101,79/8792843570406995
http://www.watson.ch/imgdb/7adb/Qx,A,0,0,960,1764,400,735,160,294/1749291991216377
http://www.watson.ch/Wissen/Schweiz/982459207-Die-vergessenen-Jahre-des-Terrors--In-den-70ern-und-80ern-zogen-Terroristen-eine-Blutspur-durch-Europa
for those who speak german ;)

DigitalChaos
03-23-2016, 10:03 AM
Damn. I wasn't even thinking specifically about terror attacks. I put it in the "war" bucket because it's just another form of war between humans.

aggroculture
03-23-2016, 10:11 AM
Oh yeah, Christianity WAS responsible for a lot of horrible shit. In the past. Now it's (for the most part) quaint and adorable. The worst thing Christianty does nowadays is convince the most ardent extremists to support Ted Cruz.

I'm NOT saying Islam is to blame here, but let's not draw false equivalencies between religions. That's just as simplistic as pointing the finger at a religion and just pinning the blame there.

EDIT: *not saying

This probably isn't the right place to discuss this, but you're wrong here. The influence of so-called "Christianity" on today's US politics is highly toxic and not at all marginal.
Defunding planned parenthood, trying to outlaw abortion again or send women to jail for decades for "feticide": http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/indiana-has-now-charged-two-asian-american-women-feticide-n332761
Anti-LGBT and "religious freedom" laws which legalize discrimination against the LGBT community.
Climate change denial has its roots in "Christian" ideas about nature, and is fully in the service of oil billionaires, fracking industries, anti-regulation corporations and lobbies.
Abstinence-only sex ed, promoted by GWB.
The whole "crusade" against Islam narrative and evangelical support for Israel stems from Christian right politics.

It's not quaint and adorable, there is a huge human toll to "Christianity" meddling in US politics.
In many ways the US is a theocratic, not secular nation. For US citizens without much experience of living in a secular society (such as much of Western Europe is: yes there is religion present at the state level, but there is also a higher degree of separation between church and state), it might not seem this way, but the level of government religiosity, of religion-dictated policy here in the US is a real problem.

Volband
03-23-2016, 11:10 AM
Damn. I wasn't even thinking specifically about terror attacks. I put it in the "war" bucket because it's just another form of war between humans.
All I'm seeing from those statistics that after the collapse of the socialist block (related or not, don't know) the casulties from terror attacks dwinled, and seemingly kept at bay after London, and now we had 3 terror attacks in Europe within just 1,5 years? We even knew about the planned attacks on Brussels in advance, yet we still failed to protect the people. Come on now, telling people it's actually safer than before is some major leftist bullshit. You also casually forgot about the fact that Europe is facing its biggest crisis with nationalities in our modern history. People are agitated, losing trust in their government and the EU, and being fanaticized. Right wing parties are having a tea time riding the wave. You can go out to the streets, shout "shoot these rabid dogs, all of them, give the children two bullets" and you'd even gain supporters. You don't have to keep these opinions between four walls, because more and more people (even if just silently) agrees with you. There's a fire and oil is being poured on it. And that's just the migrant and terrorist situation, don't forget we have countries in insane debts, Greece being on life support, and you see, you'd be kicked out of office immidietly if despite knowing all this, you'd drop the "everything's fine people!!!! it's just your perception!!! if we ignore the bombings, shootings and rapings, we are pretty OK!".

At least with shit like the communist block or Yugoslavia, we had the problem right in our sight. You knew who stirred trouble, you know who and where to stay away from. The death toll might be slimmer than a full-out war, but you can't compare an invisible enemy to a war.

DigitalChaos
03-23-2016, 03:00 PM
Volband
I'm not saying to ignore it or not to try and prevent it. I'm just saying not to talk about it as some unprecedented historical situation of killing.

Just because this form of fighting is different than prior types doesn't mean it isn't war. It's still people killing other people over religious, ideological, financial, geographic, resource control, etc reasons. It doesn't matter if they use line infantry or skirmish infantry, spears or guns or bombs, uniformed soldiers or disguised spies or citizens or someone on a laptop.

war is war. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war

Nyx
03-23-2016, 04:49 PM
And that is so not true that we can't go ahead of these atrocities. Why couldn't we?! We let in:
Elders: They can't even do anything. In the old times they would have been the last to be granted allowance anywhere, but it's the 21st century, so we let them in and grant them their graceful last years. I doubht there are that much elders though.
Children: A 3 years old won't knock you out cold in a dark alley, that's for sure. You can also streamline them into your customs, your traditions. There are countries, like ours, where the low birth rates are actually quite alarming, so, free babies? Yes please!
Mothers: If you take in the children you should take in their mothers as well, everyone wins by this. If they only arrived by their father, then take the fathers. They might not be the best work force, but they have a reason to sit put and don't stirr trouble. If you and your children gets an easy job, free meals and a free house, you won't seek trouble risking it all.
Women: I don't think there are much single women among the migrants, but you can't lose much by letting them in. They are a capable wrok force, might settle down with someone from your country, but most importantly, low risk factor.

As for the majority of the migrants, which are men in their 20s, you make a very strict quota for each country and let them in accordingly. You don't let in gangs, and groups of 20 friends, you deliberately separate them from each other to be as isolated as they can be. You send them to basic, monotone factory work, and those who are serious about being integrated, will eventually have the chance to move forwards, those who thought they will live here for free get an easy ticket back to where they came from. The rest can either turn back, and make impressions of the walkers from The Walking Dead alongside of the fence. It's starting to get hot, and humans can't take dehydration too long. If the world has a problem with that, then the rich Arabian countries, Turkey, Russia and the USA are more than welcome to chip in and show us how humanity is done. But if they can only talk then yes, watch as they drop dead. As sad it is, nothing can be more important for an individual than their lives, and nothing can be more important to a nation than their integrity. To the doubters, once again, history books.
Wait, you actually consider yourself "overall pro-migrant"? Wow.

elevenism
03-23-2016, 08:36 PM
Er, no. There has never been a more peaceful time in recorded history. People are being killed at record low rates. You are just more connected to world news now.

Step back and gain perspective. This is the reactionary emotional mindset that pulls us into 9/11 style mistakes.
THis is very fucking interesting @DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) and reznovka .

So my usual reaction, that the world isn't any crazier than it's always been, still stands.

Ryan
03-23-2016, 10:29 PM
Muslims, I mean, come on.

http://theoutspokenpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/south-park-s07e11c03-cartman-beats-up-jimmy-16x9.jpg

DigitalChaos
03-24-2016, 01:37 AM
You want to know of a first world country that hasn't had a single Muslim terror attack in the last several decades? Japan

I'm always about freedom and freedom is dangerous, but Japan goes the other way on this topic.

sick among the pure
03-24-2016, 03:50 AM
You want to know of a first world country that hasn't had a single Muslim terror attack in the last several decades? Japan

I'm always about freedom and freedom is dangerous, but Japan goes the other way on this topic.

Japan also isn't western. Terrorists have been going after western ideals and society.

reznovka
03-24-2016, 04:02 AM
Japan is pretty modern and progressive but, as far as I know, has a very low numbers of muslims living there and never fought in a war in the muslim countries.
The problem in the EU are the open borders and the possibility to move freely. Japan on the other hand is surrounded by water and the typical terrorist would stand out way more than in France or Germany.

Volband
03-24-2016, 04:56 AM
Wait, you actually consider yourself "overall pro-migrant"? Wow.
"Wow, you'd be strict with the only migrant demographic which has the highest rate of people who are just simply opportunistic?!?! Adolf Hitler much??!"

Ladies and gentlemen, let me show you someone from the left side of the political spectrum, who has a hard time believing I'm overall a pro-migrant, because even though I'd let everyone but one demographic in with open hands (and even with that one I'd just make very strict rules, not straight out reject them all for the lulz), apparently that doesn't cut it to be pro-migrant for the lefties. I'd say I pack my stuff and go right, but they would just ridicule me for even thinking about letting anyone through the holy border of Europe.

Send help, it's very lonely here in the middle.


@Volband (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3656)
I'm not saying to ignore it or not to try and prevent it. I'm just saying not to talk about it as some unprecedented historical situation of killing.

Just because this form of fighting is different than prior types doesn't mean it isn't war. It's still people killing other people over religious, ideological, financial, geographic, resource control, etc reasons. It doesn't matter if they use line infantry or skirmish infantry, spears or guns or bombs, uniformed soldiers or disguised spies or citizens or someone on a laptop.

war is war. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war
Technically, yes. But in this ar you can't see the enemy, which basically means they can be anywhere. It makes the people paranoid and makes (some) of them act or think unreasonably. It's a spark, and funnily enough, with the current migrant situation, we have something very, very flammable as well. Yes, the chances of you getting bombed at let's say a random Spanish airport the day after tomorrow are slim, we are pretty safe in that regard. But animosity is rising, and it won't end well if the EU will continue to be paralyzed.

The good thing in a traditional war is that you can see and even follow step by step how your country and your allies getting revenge and forcing the enemy back. It gives you a certain sense of safety, and even if the war is not going as great, with good enough propaganda it can be sold to the masses as huge success. But how do you sell Europe that we are on our way to kick the terror-threat out of Europe? I bet people in France felt just stellar that France planes bombed Syria. The events in Brussels just showed how "great" of an impact it had.

Nyx
03-24-2016, 06:23 AM
There's nothing "middle" about your rhetoric, dude.

Volband
03-24-2016, 10:02 AM
There's nothing "middle" about your rhetoric, dude.
Then what is it? Strictly left parties want to let everyone in, even though they have no idea how, and strictly right wing parties want to keep everyone out, even though they have no idea why, other than "but muh country!!!!" The right wing feeds from the hate, and the left tries its best to make it look like that anyone who is even wondering if letting everyone in might be a bad idea to be a child-murderer. I can't feel sympathy to any of these. I don't actually categorize myself, but the few polls on the net all put me in the mainly liberal bracket, so there's that if you want to start somewhere.

I just like to think rationally (a spooky word when it comes to discussing politics), and willing to settle down with like a -30% downgrade to what I consider the good, rational choice - call it politicians fee or whatever you'd like. I have nothing against those migrants, most of them are legitimately trying to escape the terrors back at their home. Hell, guess which country did almost the same 60 years ago? Mine. And guess which countries are trying to find jobs at West, because the living conditions are just so much better there? Eastern-European ones. Many people here refuse to even face the similarities between what we are doing and had done and what the migrants are doing right now. Absolutely mind-numbing. But there is a thing called infrastructure, and no matter how good of a folk you are, when it comes to housing hundreds of thousands of migrants out of the blue, then it won't depend on your heart and good will, but on the infrastructure. I'm all for humanity, but if you are refusing to use your brain, you end up like Sweden and Germany. If none of you are capable to sit down a bit and face the reality that Europe is simply not capable of letting everyone in and getting away with it, then what are we even talking about? You need to get some grasp on reality, as painful as it might be.

When this all began, I was delirious just like you are now. I had heated arguments with one of my friends. I took it on me to enlighten him about how animalistic it is to put up a fence in front of those people, when their destination is not even our country. Turns out, not only it was a right decision, but hell, one of the first step in the entire EU to bring something systematic in (which is rather sad for the West) to try to stop the avalanche and think it through. Many other countries (even those who criticized us for it first) followed suit. I also told him to mark my words, once the migrants leave our country and finally arrive to countries like Germany, surprise-surprise, there will be close to no problem, because the West got it all covered, unlike our incompetent little, hateful country. Turns out the West had no fucking idea what they were doing, and you were quite the unlucky one if you were caught up in the middle of this as a German or Swedish girl. Maybe we should handle them ETS accounts, so you, Nyx, could tell them that those 20-something years old poor migrant men (remember, the only demographic I'd forced to go through strict background-checks) who beat them up, raped them, or both, was just 21st century humanity in action. Maybe you could even guilt trip them for going to the police.

This thread has gone so left that I actually have to check on FB for some right wing compensation. Ah, here it is: "Help the migrants! If you see one on fire, pour gasoline on him/her!" Damn. Two more years and I get to choose again between you guys, but I have a feeling I'm going to skip that general election as well.

Nyx
03-24-2016, 10:37 AM
If you want to believe a union consisting of 500 milion people would slip into total chaos, anarchy and poverty due to a 0.2% increase of population, be my guest. Just don't call yourself realistic.
I don't even know how or why refugees were brought up in this thread tbh..

reznovka
03-24-2016, 10:57 AM
Then what is it? Strictly left parties want to let everyone in, even though they have no idea how[...]

...because they try to save human lives.


I took it on me to enlighten him about how animalistic it is to put up a fence in front of those people, when their destination is not even our country. Turns out, not only it was a right decision, but hell, one of the first step in the entire EU to bring something systematic in (which is rather sad for the West) to try to stop the avalanche and think it through.

a fence is never the right thing. there are people starving and freezing to death and you think it's a "right decision"?!


Many other countries (even those who criticized us for it first) followed suit.

and I still can't understand why the poor and bankrupt Greece manages to get at least some help for the people and other countries act like shitheads.
most of the people wanna go to Sweden or Germany and I am glad our borders are still open even though we have a strong right wing group which tries to change that.
just let them through.

DigitalChaos
03-24-2016, 11:09 AM
If this happened 20-30 years back, we would probably have a much better outcome. Actual policing is how this kind of thing gets solved. Instead, we have stripped resources from this "old way" and put it toward NSA style intel gathering that lets so much more slip through the cracks. ISIS has repeatedly shown to be low skill, yet they still aren't stopped with current methods.

DigitalChaos
03-24-2016, 11:12 AM
Japan is pretty modern and progressive but, as far as I know, has a very low numbers of muslims living there and never fought in a war in the muslim countries.
The problem in the EU are the open borders and the possibility to move freely. Japan on the other hand is surrounded by water and the typical terrorist would stand out way more than in France or Germany.

There are a lot of underlying policy and cultural reasons that make it this way. It's the kind of thing that would get heavy criticism from the PC crowd if it happened in the US. However, there are also a lot of people saying that Japan is attractive for Muslims because of the religious freedom they offer.

Volband
03-24-2016, 02:44 PM
If you want to believe a union consisting of 500 milion people would slip into total chaos, anarchy and poverty due to a 0.2% increase of population, be my guest. Just don't call yourself realistic.
I don't even know how or why refugees were brought up in this thread tbh..
No, I don't see modern countries slipping into total chaos, at least not yet. But it's amusing to me how you spout the mindless left propaganda with casually ignoring everything that's happened so far. Even right now, that mere 0.2% increase is not handled in a good way at all, causing issues, causing (eventually) political heads to roll. It has already led to violence in many countries which led the refugees in. It is a fact that refugees have committed physical violence on more occasions, and they were on the short end of it as well. We can't even start talking about integration, because that process is at like -40%. You try to act like that 0.2% does not matter and easy to handle, well, do you want me to search for videos where some people from that 0.2% drown to their death? Or where they are rioting, because it's a huge mess almost everywhere?

And if anyone should know better, it's YOU. You most likely had to thoroughly learn about the history of Central- and Eastern-Europe. While the West is pretty much only started facing with the problem of nationalities recently (bar England, but England was always the odd one out in the European history), it's in the very root of our history. We had more than a thousand years to make nationalities live in harmony, but it always ended the same way. To this day people are raised to hate certain countries bordering their own because of some hundred years old shit which hit the fan after the first World War. You REALLY think that Syrian child going to school in somewhere Europe amongst the terrorist attacks and the rape charges will have a nice, friendly day? Mindless hate, racism is present as early as in primary school. If you can't integrate them into your culture, or at least make a peaceful compromise somehow, they are bound to stick together, live separately and fueled with animosity. Just because these things don't happen within 24 hours, does not mean it's not a real threat.

Are you asking me how migrants who come from an Arab country, following the Islam, herded into Europe, some of them, causing trouble, and countries unable to properly do anything with them with more and more on their way have anything to do with the third terrorist attack in Europe within 1,5~ years ? Gee, I don't know.

But I have a question too! I could not find it in your profile, so I'm asking here: are you of age to vote? So in the next general election, will you be eligible to draw an X on the paper next to whatever is your country's main leftist party, who are probably sound like a broken record by now, repeatedly saying that we (well, you) must let everyone in, that's the right thing to do, screw those bad guys on the right, let's everyone adopt a refugee starting yesterday, if you disagree you are literally killing this little girl in this picture with her parents? I won't hold it against you until at least deep down you are willing to accept that you need to dig a pretty big hole in the ground so that you can pretend that this migrant situation is the easiest shit ever happened to Europe (btw call Merkel asap, she might want to hear some advices, it seemed rather tough for her) and contains absolutely no danger at all.

...because they try to save human lives.


a fence is never the right thing. there are people starving and freezing to death and you think it's a "right decision"?!

How much money you have to spare? If you are not living from paycheck to paycheck, you have some. Even if you are putting some aside for a car, house, anything, you surely has some spare money. How much did you spend on the refugees? Did you send them your worn out clothes? Did you seek out options to house some of them for a while? Did you try to volunteer at one of the shelters? Did you try to look for some job for some of them? Did you buy at least a cup of hot tea for some of them during the winter? Hm?

Or is saving human lives means logging into internet boards, posting that we HAVE TO let EVERYONE in, then turn off the computer and continue living your life as you were, while these poor, ""saved"" migrants are even more lost here in the middle of paralyzed government and racism and terror-threats than they were out in the open? Do you have any idea how we might solve this? Or you close your eyes, count to three, and check the news again, seeing if maybe this time you can finally read something positive and promising?

Why don't we go further? Why don't we reach out to Africa? Is it because they are not coming? If they were coming, would you advocate to let them in? I'm talking about a few hundred thousand, or as Nyx would say, just 0.2%. Or is that different because they are a thirld world country, so they were basically born and raised in despair?


How is the rate of nationalities in your country? Is there any animosity? Are there nationalities which many look at as troublemakers? Is there tension? Has it ever resulted in violence?

Is there unemployement in your country? How bad is it?

I don't know about your country, so... do you have homeless people? How bad is poverty there? Can everyone manage more or less, or are there people, families out there who are not even sure if they'l have something to it next month? Do you have disabled people whom the government don't take proper care? You know, people who are not "enough" disabled to get as much money or care from the government so they can manage just fine, but it's crippling enough to make their life miserable. Do you have orphans in your country? How much? They would surely like to find a family to be raised up in, right? That's very important in a little child's life. They don't understand why "no one loves them."

Do you think about them? Do you think about the starving children in your country when you are talking about humanity and saving everyone, while migrants are being fed and taken care of for free? Would you have what it takes to make a speech while your audience would everyone I was talking about in the previous paragraph? "Mr. George! How's that leg? The son of a bitch still hurts, eh? But if you gotta work, you gotta work, am I right? Hey, Christine! Don't hide, I see you! How old are you again? 7, right? Are you eating a slice of bread?! A whole?! Christine, sharing is caring! Refugees are starving too. Frank, could you get out of your financial crisis? No?? Damn, they are taking the house? Must be hard on your wife and the kids. But damn, even harder on some of the refugees, I was thinking about sheltering some at your house, but I guess that's a no-go now. But hey, at least Gabriel here can give you some advice, isn't that right, Gabriel? Living on the streets for almost 10 whole years now! What a champ. Now, old fella, I wanted to ask you to try to be more invisible, because it's not good publicity to the refugees seeing you like... well, the way you are, you know? Well, everyone, it's been a blast! Not a blast like in Paris or Brussels though, but hey, you don't have to worry a thing about that. You have nothing to lose! Except you Luise, you still have your alcoholic father that beats you up every night, do you not? Anyway, another wave of refugees coming in, so please, welcome them with open hands! No, Dennis, no! Don't even start talking about your brother and how they beat him up last time. I'll have you know that you are a racist."

You can't save everyone, and pretending you can does not make you a better person. Like, are you a good doctor if you hold back the information that someone has cancer? "Awww Volband, you told him?! Oh, you and your >>realistic<<, DUH, thinking. Once again you are being a fucking downer, telling people they will most likely die. Look at our patients, you moron! They keep smiling and hoping, completely unaware that they are basically already dead. Where is your humanity?"

I am really happy for you, that you are trying to believe, but sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes you are caught up in a lose-lose situation. Sometimes you can't save everyone. I'm not saying that you should accept everything I'm saying as law, but when basically everything backs up my claim that we are absolutely, horrendously incapable of handling this situation, then at least try to explore the possibility that maybe I am saying some truth, as ugly as it might sound.


and I still can't understand why the poor and bankrupt Greece manages to get at least some help for the people and other countries act like shitheads.
most of the people wanna go to Sweden or Germany and I am glad our borders are still open even though we have a strong right wing group which tries to change that.
just let them through.
At this point, I don't think Greece is even has any right to take a dump without Germany and co. agreeing to it. Greece and sovereignity are opposite expressions. As for the fence, there are two possibilities. When even pro-migrant countries are building fences despite initially giving all the crap they could find for us because of our fence, then:
1. They realized that it's necessary, because as much as they'd like to let everyone in, it needs to be systematic, not like in the Middle-Ages where nations simply marched into certain kingdoms' territories.
2. Germany is not the one driving in the wrong lane, she is the only one driving in the right lane.

I'd take a wild guess here, but let's say time will tell. And kinda already told.

Exocet
03-24-2016, 03:04 PM
Found some statistics to show you're right.
There was always terror and killings but most of us were young or not even born then


The graph you displayed showed terrorism in Europe since 1970.
Prior to Madrid 2004 almost all of them were civil independence movements, ETA in Spain etc.

The UK was where the overwhelming number of terrorist incidents occured in Europe in 1970s and 80s.
This was the Irish Republican Army.
It was a civil conflict dating back nearly a thousand years.

It was NOTHING like this.
The Irish terrorists used to ring London police services informing them they were going to detonate a bomb 20 minutes before explosion. They would target London's financial centre to effect the stock market.
The death toll was rarely over 5-10 people.

This is different it is a global Jihadist insurgency.

Governments are spending Billions more on security than they did in the 1990s.

reznovka
03-24-2016, 04:52 PM
[...]

But I have a question too! I could not find it in your profile, so I'm asking here: are you of age to vote? So in the next general election, will you be eligible to draw an X on the paper next to whatever is your country's main leftist party, who are probably sound like a broken record by now, repeatedly saying that we (well, you) must let everyone in, that's the right thing to do, screw those bad guys on the right, let's everyone adopt a refugee starting yesterday, if you disagree you are literally killing this little girl in this picture with her parents? I won't hold it against you until at least deep down you are willing to accept that you need to dig a pretty big hole in the ground so that you can pretend that this migrant situation is the easiest shit ever happened to Europe (btw call Merkel asap, she might want to hear some advices, it seemed rather tough for her) and contains absolutely no danger at all.

27 and yes I vote left. I don't have a perfect solution, but I think that has to be one and keeping victims of war outside isn't the right one.


How much money you have to spare? If you are not living from paycheck to paycheck, you have some. Even if you are putting some aside for a car, house, anything, you surely has some spare money. How much did you spend on the refugees? Did you send them your worn out clothes? Did you seek out options to house some of them for a while? Did you try to volunteer at one of the shelters? Did you try to look for some job for some of them? Did you buy at least a cup of hot tea for some of them during the winter? Hm?

Or is saving human lives means logging into internet boards, posting that we HAVE TO let EVERYONE in, then turn off the computer and continue living your life as you were, while these poor, ""saved"" migrants are even more lost here in the middle of paralyzed government and racism and terror-threats than they were out in the open? Do you have any idea how we might solve this? Or you close your eyes, count to three, and check the news again, seeing if maybe this time you can finally read something positive and promising?

Why don't we go further? Why don't we reach out to Africa? Is it because they are not coming? If they were coming, would you advocate to let them in? I'm talking about a few hundred thousand, or as Nyx would say, just 0.2%. Or is that different because they are a thirld world country, so they were basically born and raised in despair?

I am not rich but I earn enough do live a good life (good apartment, dog, good laptop, no car, enough to eat, some concerts per year, nin merch) and I donated clothes and hygiene articles and my hospital collected money for things the refugees need and I offered to help at the camp, but they already had enough nurses.
Africa has some countries where gays for example are hunted down and I think that those people need every help possible.
Christianity is a big problem there, because big parts of Africa are follow this religion and as long as the church bans condoms there will be more and more poor children. Like in Syria we have to cut the roots of the problem, not the leaves. Yeah we have to help everyone, as long as we have it better.



How is the rate of nationalities in your country? Is there any animosity? Are there nationalities which many look at as troublemakers? Is there tension? Has it ever resulted in violence?

Is there unemployement in your country? How bad is it?

I don't know about your country, so... do you have homeless people? How bad is poverty there? Can everyone manage more or less, or are there people, families out there who are not even sure if they'l have something to it next month? Do you have disabled people whom the government don't take proper care? You know, people who are not "enough" disabled to get as much money or care from the government so they can manage just fine, but it's crippling enough to make their life miserable. Do you have orphans in your country? How much? They would surely like to find a family to be raised up in, right? That's very important in a little child's life. They don't understand why "no one loves them."

Do you think about them? Do you think about the starving children in your country when you are talking about humanity and saving everyone, while migrants are being fed and taken care of for free? Would you have what it takes to make a speech while your audience would everyone I was talking about in the previous paragraph? "Mr. George! How's that leg? The son of a bitch still hurts, eh? But if you gotta work, you gotta work, am I right? Hey, Christine! Don't hide, I see you! How old are you again? 7, right? Are you eating a slice of bread?! A whole?! Christine, sharing is caring! Refugees are starving too. Frank, could you get out of your financial crisis? No?? Damn, they are taking the house? Must be hard on your wife and the kids. But damn, even harder on some of the refugees, I was thinking about sheltering some at your house, but I guess that's a no-go now. But hey, at least Gabriel here can give you some advice, isn't that right, Gabriel? Living on the streets for almost 10 whole years now! What a champ. Now, old fella, I wanted to ask you to try to be more invisible, because it's not good publicity to the refugees seeing you like... well, the way you are, you know? Well, everyone, it's been a blast! Not a blast like in Paris or Brussels though, but hey, you don't have to worry a thing about that. You have nothing to lose! Except you Luise, you still have your alcoholic father that beats you up every night, do you not? Anyway, another wave of refugees coming in, so please, welcome them with open hands! No, Dennis, no! Don't even start talking about your brother and how they beat him up last time. I'll have you know that you are a racist."


I live in a part where we have muslim boroughs and yes we have some tension, because of radicals, some religious and some right wing idiots who burn down camps and schools where the refugees live right now.
In Germany it's pretty easy to live without work, because the government pays EVERYBODY and gives you a free apartment.
We have some homeless people, but they wouldn't have to live on the street. Those people choose to live there, don't ask me why.
Every kid gets money. We have a strong economy and like I said - everybody gets money.
I know that it's easy as a german to act like this, but most of the refugees want to come to Germany because we have the money and the possibilities to help them.


You can't save everyone, and pretending you can does not make you a better person. Like, are you a good doctor if you hold back the information that someone has cancer? "Awww Volband, you told him?! Oh, you and your >>realistic<<, DUH, thinking. Once again you are being a fucking downer, telling people they will most likely die. Look at our patients, you moron! They keep smiling and hoping, completely unaware that they are basically already dead. Where is your humanity?"

No need for insults ;)
I always call my doctors when we get the results of the kind of cancer (as a nurse I am not allowed to tell the people what they have) and I always take my time for the patients after the doctor told them their type of tumor.


I am really happy for you, that you are trying to believe, but sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes you are caught up in a lose-lose situation. Sometimes you can't save everyone. I'm not saying that you should accept everything I'm saying as law, but when basically everything backs up my claim that we are absolutely, horrendously incapable of handling this situation, then at least try to explore the possibility that maybe I am saying some truth, as ugly as it might sound.

At this point, I don't think Greece is even has any right to take a dump without Germany and co. agreeing to it. Greece and sovereignity are opposite expressions. As for the fence, there are two possibilities. When even pro-migrant countries are building fences despite initially giving all the crap they could find for us because of our fence, then:
1. They realized that it's necessary, because as much as they'd like to let everyone in, it needs to be systematic, not like in the Middle-Ages where nations simply marched into certain kingdoms' territories.
2. Germany is not the one driving in the wrong lane, she is the only one driving in the right lane.

I'd take a wild guess here, but let's say time will tell. And kinda already told.

I said some posts before that I know how shitty the situation for Europe and especially Greece is right now and I absolutely no fan of he way Germany treats some countries.

Nyx
03-24-2016, 04:56 PM
To answer your questions, Vollband, I am 33 and have voted many times now, obviously for left parties, I don't really see your point? We have laws about accepting refugees. You can't have those laws and then stop upholding them the minute actual refugees show up. Yes, integration is a problem, has been a problem and will probably continue to be a problem in Europe, for a while. Mainly due to ghettoisation of migrants, discrimination and violence towards them, etc.. It's a complex issue that can't be solved by "let's take in the women and children since they are easier to bully, the rest can fuck off". The chaos we are witnessing now has nothing to do with the refugees and largely to do with EU's complete lack of strategy and subsequently panicking at its outermost borders. Refugees aren't rioting because they feel entitled to your women, jobs and houses but because they are sitting out in the cold and rain and getting no information as to why they are not allowed in or how long they are supposed to stay in limbo. And yes, you are correct, being from where I am, I know all about ethnic tensions, but also about successful integration. I have neighbours and friends from all over former Yugoslavia, from all religious denominations, a lot of them came to this country as refugees from the Balkan war(s). Speaking of which, do you know how many of those refugees Slovenia (population 2 million) hosted in 1991? 70.000 (that's 3% of population, 70% of them were Muslim). Most of them left after the war was over..but a lot of them stayed. Now people are acting like it's end of the world because we're supposed to take in couple of hundred of them... Completely ridiculous.

reznovka
03-24-2016, 04:57 PM
The graph you displayed showed terrorism in Europe since 1970.
Prior to Madrid 2004 almost all of them were civil independence movements, ETA in Spain etc.

The UK was where the overwhelming number of terrorist incidents occured in Europe in 1970s and 80s.
This was the Irish Republican Army.
It was a civil conflict dating back nearly a thousand years.

It was NOTHING like this.
The Irish terrorists used to ring London police services informing them they were going to detonate a bomb 20 minutes before explosion. They would target London's financial centre to effect the stock market.
The death toll was rarely over 5-10 people.

This is different it is a global Jihadist insurgency.

Governments are spending Billions more on security than they did in the 1990s.

You're absolutely right and I can't deny that the kind of terror we're facing right now is cruel and dangerous as f***.
I just wanted to show that terror was always there.
Germany had the left terror group RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion) and they bombed shopping malls when those were empty at night and kidnapped bosses from banks and news papers to reach their goals.
Now everyone could be a victim. I am afraid too.
But I still think that we have to stick together, Europe, muslims, christians, jews, just everybody, because when we start to blame every muslim and push them into a corner, IS gets what they want.

DigitalChaos
03-24-2016, 06:36 PM
"investigators found 33 pounds of homemade explosives at a house used by the two bombers who struck Brussels Airport" http://www.businessinsider.com/brussels-attack-tatp-chemical-bombs-2016-3


Holy fuck, this is a lot of TATP, especially to just be hanging out unused. I wonder where the hell they were making it and what they were going to do with the rest.

This is the same stuff that was used in France. Easier to make than a martini (you just mix peroxide and acetone with a little acid), and doesn't register on any of the current explosives tests. It's dangerous as hell to work with though.

reznovka
03-24-2016, 07:34 PM
the problem is that they can make this everywhere and the ingridients are easy to get. it's sad but they aren't stupid enough to just bomb themselves while building those...

r_z
03-24-2016, 09:42 PM
If the events in Paris and Brussels teach us anything it's NOT to exclude certain demographics from our society, NOT to discriminate others, NOT to let ghettoisation happen. Or else we'll have minorities willing to join extremists and/or fight us with violence.

DigitalChaos
03-24-2016, 10:57 PM
the problem is that they can make this everywhere and the ingridients are easy to get. it's sad but they aren't stupid enough to just bomb themselves while building those...
Oh it happens. That stuff is very volatile. It's why most people don't use it as an explosive. The ease of sourcing it and the fact that it bypasses all the bomb test (it's not nitrogen based) is why they seem to go after it. If you get a few crystals in the threads of the jar/container you store it in and then start closing the top and creating friction... booom. A few grams of it will take your arm off.

There are quite a few in the "redneck" category in the US who enjoy explosives and TATP will sometimes be one of their DIY routes. But it's usually in mere grams. 33lbs (15kg) is fucking ridiculous. They had to have had quite a few more attacks lined up that didn't end up happening. I am guessing they were going to lose their opportunity so they cut their losses and just went for what they could.

Exocet
03-25-2016, 01:33 AM
You're absolutely right and I can't deny that the kind of terror we're facing right now is cruel and dangerous as f***.
I just wanted to show that terror was always there.
Germany had the left terror group RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion) and they bombed shopping malls when those were empty at night and kidnapped bosses from banks and news papers to reach their goals.
Now everyone could be a victim. I am afraid too.
But I still think that we have to stick together, Europe, muslims, christians, jews, just everybody, because when we start to blame every muslim and push them into a corner, IS gets what they want.

To be honest many in Britain worry about Germany...their intelligence services are weak..and they dont understand Germanys slack attitude to all of this.....Germany have not played a major role in global affairs outside Europe for past 70 years...its a new country.... however..the U.K and France have.

There needs to be more security, Germany it seems is not taking it seriously.

WorzelG
03-25-2016, 02:45 AM
They had to have had quite a few more attacks lined up that didn't end up happening. I am guessing they were going to lose their opportunity so they cut their losses and just went for what they could.
There was a story in the UK press about being prepared for up to 10 attacks in London just before Brussels happened. I wonder if we just got lucky
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-preparing-for-10-simultaneous-terror-attacks-in-wake-of-paris-a6942861.html

reznovka
03-25-2016, 03:50 AM
Exocet
Well, we are watching the terrorists and the radicals who came back from Syria, but our main problem is that we don't have enough cops. And while they have to keep track of the terrorists, they have to protect the PEGIDA demonstations and the burned refugee camps.
Germany tries its best but I think it won't help.

Volband
03-25-2016, 04:02 AM
The chaos we are witnessing now has nothing to do with the refugees and largely to do with EU's complete lack of strategy and subsequently panicking at its outermost borders. Refugees aren't rioting because they feel entitled to your women, jobs and houses but because they are sitting out in the cold and rain and getting no information as to why they are not allowed in or how long they are supposed to stay in limbo.
And there's my point. The EU don't know what to do with them and it's hurting everybody. Your response to this is to blindly let even more of them in, like that would help. I don't see anyone offering a proper solution.

27 and yes I vote left. I don't have a perfect solution, but I think that has to be one and keeping victims of war outside isn't the right one.

I am not rich but I earn enough do live a good life (good apartment, dog, good laptop, no car, enough to eat, some concerts per year, nin merch) and I donated clothes and hygiene articles and my hospital collected money for things the refugees need and I offered to help at the camp, but they already had enough nurses.
Africa has some countries where gays for example are hunted down and I think that those people need every help possible.
Christianity is a big problem there, because big parts of Africa are follow this religion and as long as the church bans condoms there will be more and more poor children. Like in Syria we have to cut the roots of the problem, not the leaves. Yeah we have to help everyone, as long as we have it better.


I live in a part where we have muslim boroughs and yes we have some tension, because of radicals, some religious and some right wing idiots who burn down camps and schools where the refugees live right now.
In Germany it's pretty easy to live without work, because the government pays EVERYBODY and gives you a free apartment.
We have some homeless people, but they wouldn't have to live on the street. Those people choose to live there, don't ask me why.
Every kid gets money. We have a strong economy and like I said - everybody gets money.
I know that it's easy as a german to act like this, but most of the refugees want to come to Germany because we have the money and the possibilities to help them.

No need for insults ;)
I always call my doctors when we get the results of the kind of cancer (as a nurse I am not allowed to tell the people what they have) and I always take my time for the patients after the doctor told them their type of tumor.
Well, damn me, that's actually nice. And in a way, even more worrying that a country like that can't handle the refugees. Though even before the migrant wave, I've read about problems with Turkish people if I remember correctly.

But I can only say the same thing to you too: you. don't. know. how. If that won't induce some level of reassessing your stance on this matter, I don't know what would. Burning refugee camps should not be dismissed as "aww, radical right being radical right, how cute!" What's stopping them to continue it? The government has no idea what to do, and even your average people don't mind them tormenting the refugees, they just don't say it openly. There is a huge dividing line.


If the events in Paris and Brussels teach us anything it's NOT to exclude certain demographics from our society, NOT to discriminate others, NOT to let ghettoisation happen. Or else we'll have minorities willing to join extremists and/or fight us with violence.
Interesting story my college just told me. Yesterday he was at our capital city, and after he got checked on by the police who made him pack out his bag, even the anti-terrorist force found him when he went out to smoke a cig. He said they were asking him questions, like what's he doing in the city, and after him telling about his wife and the coming baby, they asked about his missing ring (too thin for him to put it up now), LOL. They told him to empty his bag and warned him not to make any sudden movements, and one of the guy hovered his hand around his gun the entire time, like in a wild west movie. He also said that the day of the bombings, he saw the task force nailing someone to the ground, forcibly removing his stuff, like shoes and whatnot, then after they finished they let him go.

So, basically we can choose between this, or getting bombed.

He also said an arabian couple abroaded the train, and he heard some people seriously discussing if they should get off of the train and go with another one. Yes, it's crazy, if an arabian would want to kill you in Europe, he/she would not fucking dress like one to begin with, especially not after what happened this week, but you have to understand that this is the mentality flowing around.

Yeah, what did you say? Not to discriminate? Well, hate to break it you, but you hardly invented anything groundbreaking with that realization. But you see, there's one thing to do the talk ("ACCEPT EACH OTHER" "LOVE EACH OTHER" "WE ARE THE SAME") and make it happen.

Terror attack--> Refugees coming in --> Refugees rioting (yes, the government's fault, but ypur average citizen won't see it) ---> Refugees assaulting your people ---> Another terror attack ---> More refugees coming in ---> And another one. (I also leaved out the part about those refugees who were covering for terrorists, or were extremists to begin with, that's just icing on the cake). And you expect people to not to be discriminative? Not to talk about that if a refugee would not like it be assimilated, they should have every right to refuse it, and continue on with their tradition. But the thing is, they will continue with these traditions with their people.

There are many reasons why the distance between refugees and citizens of countries they are granted asylum in is getting bigger and bigger. It's stellar that you can do the talk, the next step would be you wanting world peace, and hey, I have no problem with that, but you will have to wake up and realize that it's not that easy. Never was.

edit: Also, don't say stuf flike Paris and Brussels taught us this, LOL. My own country literally got chopped into pieces because we did the same for hundreds of years, so nationalities noped the fuck out the very first time they got the chance. And we could go further back in history, but even my example is "only" ~100 years old, so yeah. If Paris and Brussels taught us anything, it's that we are not safe, and our intelligence services are utter shit.

@Exocet (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4836)
Well, we are watching the terrorists and the radicals who came back from Syria, but our main problem is that we don't have enough cops. And while they have to keep track of the terrorists, they have to protect the PEGIDA demonstations and the burned refugee camps.
Germany tries its best but I think it won't help.
I don't think anyone have enough cops to keep surveillancing every hub in your country 0-24. Sure, we have cops and task forces on the street now. Again. What about a month from now? Back to where we were.

Volband
03-25-2016, 05:41 AM
Damn, I actually forgot the one thing I meant to post! I'm working at the national railroad... well ,company is a bad word, but you get what I mean. Anyway, we had to sign an order, that we have to actively look for people who look of arabic origin, people with stuffed backpacks or one of my favourite, people who look like they are trying to not look out of place. Like, literally 99% of the people I see daily try to look normal, because they act normal, so... Yeah. I actually did not read it through, so I'll have to check what am I suspposed to do exactly, like tackle them with my 60 kgs, or call the anti-terror task force on everyone with a big backpack.

On one hand it's ridiculous, but on the other, it's only logical if the steps which have been taken to prevent terrorism failed, you need to top those in some way. Which results in the scenario where you are either a racist asshole 0-24 and can live in relative safety, or you let your guard down and hope you're not gonna be the next easy target. As for me, these clowns have to be kiddin with me, thinking I'd go snooping around in the name of anti-terrorism for the money I'm getting payed.

reznovka
03-25-2016, 06:25 AM
There's never 100% safety and we have to choose between freedom with dangers or a police state.
Germany had 528 attacks on refugees in 2015 and their homes and we had the NSU (national socialist underground) which killed 11 people over years and it's a national scandal because the security service knew about them and didn't stop the group, no they had undercover agents in the wider circles of the group and gave them money.
When the group died the files about them disappeared/got shreddered. Our police always acts against leftist groups and burning luxury cars or the riots on the 1st of may but is blind on the right eye and doesn't give a shit about a dead arab or people rioting in Heidenau (german city) for 2 whole days in front of a refugee camp.
All of this is terror too, self brewed and accepted because it only targets foreigners.
We have problems with albanian family gangs and turkish assholes but just as much as with neo nazis and other german assholes.
I am 100% pro asyl and even I know that there'll some assholes on the way to Germany. They're still just people and to quote Slipknot "PEOPLE=SHIT" - everywhere, there are no better people or worse just by the place they were born. and just because I got lucky and was born in Germany I am not allowed to keep others out and accept their shitty life. We have one single planet and one mankind. We should at least try to make it as good as possible for everyone.

Volband
03-25-2016, 06:51 AM
I am 100% pro asyl and even I know that there'll some assholes on the way to Germany. They're still just people and to quote Slipknot "PEOPLE=SHIT"
I can agree to this once you will have a plan to house and employ them all. Until then, you are not only letting in assholes as well, who are eating the same free food which the ones in need get, but it also turns the normal migrants into "assholes", because even they are rioting because of the incompetence of the governments, and don't forget the news next day with headlines like "Migrants with free shelter and free food are rioting!!", which in return annoy the shit out of your citizens.



there are no better people or worse just by the place they were born.
This, however, is simply not true, except for infants. The culture, family and the people you are raised by and grow up with influence you a lot. Even social stereotypes are based on this. People are not equal, and if you know where a person was born, to which ethnicity, who were their parents, where did they live, you can take a very safe educated guess as to whether he or she belongs to the better or the worse people.

reznovka
03-25-2016, 06:57 AM
https://www.facebook.com/refugeestrikebo/

Since yesterday there are refugees and support groups in my city protesting for a right to work or going to college.
They want to be part of the society but our bureaucracy is too slow.
We have the possibility to give a lot of people a chance for a better life and like I mentioned earlier we need them too.
A lot of doctors in my hospital weren't born in Germany and a lot of the nurses too.
@Volband (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3656)
I never was in Hungary and I can't speak out of your position and so can't you to me.
Like I said, I know that it's easy to speak from my point of view because life is easy in Germany.
I would never ask all the european countries to take all the refugees, we have to find a solution based on the strength of economy and other factors.
I am still hoping for something like that and maybe some day our government will stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and we can end the war in Syria and the refugees can live in their country again if they want or don't have to leave in the first place.
anyway.
If you ever get the chance to visit Germany (especially the ruhr area) tell me and I show you around and we have a beer or two .

reznovka
03-25-2016, 07:06 AM
People are not equal, and if you know where a person was born, to which ethnicity, who were their parents, where did they live, you can take a very safe educated guess as to whether he or she belongs to the better or the worse people.

Wow...
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/039/090/godwins-law1.png
I won't do it, but I you know what I was about to say...

Volband
03-25-2016, 10:03 AM
Wow...
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/039/090/godwins-law1.png
I won't do it, but I you know what I was about to say...
All right, let's play a game:

Here's Marcel. He's from an ethnicity which is notorious for being prone to commit crimes (even at a young age) and for being undereducated - which ethnicity I'm talking about can change from country to country. He lives with one parent, this parent finished 6 years from primary school out of the required 8. Marcel has 7 brothers and sisters. They are very poor.

Here's Thomas. Thomas is white, his father teaches at a university while his mother is in a high position at a bank. They both have more than one college degrees and they live a more than comfortable life. Thomas has a little brother, 8 years younger than him.

Let's say one of them is about to finish med school, and the other one was just released from jail for the 3rd time. Now your world is such where nonsense as predestination (not the religious one) is unthinkable, so you would be offended by the question, and if you were forced to answer, you would say it's OBVIOUSLY coinflip, so that's what you would do, flip a coin. Now me, the evil guy would put up all my savings - based on by basic understanding of how society works - on the answer that Thomas is the one with the incoming med degree. Do you think I'd win?

Now, whether these people can be called "worse"... I mean, a doctor has the same rights as a street thug, but such discussion is better suited to have among friends in privacy, and not out of the open, on the Internet, where you have to cosplay as r_z and talking about living together in harmony and other utopistic hippy stuff.

And if you meant I implied that we should get rid of these "worse people"... I did not. The goal should be to alleviate their burden, so 30-50-80 years from now no one has to be born into crime and uneducation.

edit: LMAO, messed up the name first. maybe karma got to me

e2: btw you don't need Godwin's law to predict that a discussion about ethnics, ethnic terrorists and Germany will have the Nazi regime surface in one way or another.


https://www.facebook.com/refugeestrikebo/
Like I said, I know that it's easy to speak from my point of view because life is easy in Germany.

It's not actually true. I mean, it's your country having no idea what to do with the refugees (while accepting in the most), so in a certain way, it's the toughest be from Germany when discussing the migrant situation. Whether you somehow miraculously manage to settle things or have to walk around burning cars in the end does not affect my peaceful mornings. As long as your economy holds, we are fine here.

reznovka
03-25-2016, 10:21 AM
so there are no uneducated and poor white people and no syrian doctors?
your "game" isn't any prove at all for your idea that there people who are born worse.
everyone can end up as doctor or die living on the street, as long as we give everyone the same chances and don't exclude them.

Volband
03-25-2016, 01:06 PM
so there are no uneducated and poor white people and no syrian doctors?
your "game" isn't any prove at all for your idea that there people who are born worse.
everyone can end up as doctor or die living on the street, as long as we give everyone the same chances and don't exclude them.
You missed the point; it's not about race. I added those to make the example easier, as a lot of country has certain ethnicities living in good conditions, and the "rich white kid" stereotype is also based on real life. If you are born into an uneducated, poor family who frequently commits crime, and raises their children to commit crimes as they were raised by their parents, then if you don't end up as them, you are the rare exception, not the rule.

You told me many times that X might be because you are from Germany, Y might be because you are from Germany. Maybe Germany is indeed the closest thing to Heaven on Earth. But for other countries (even for big ones, like the USA, see black ghettos) you can ask any local to point you to a place where you can see my example by your own two eyes. Uneducated, poor ethnic families, with 8 children running around. I've went to school with many of these in primary school and I hate to break it to you, but most of them couldn't even finish that (many of them remained illiterate, despite every attempt by the school and teachers). let alone getting into high school. That 8 children running around? No, they won't do brain surgery on your children or grandchildren, you can bet on it.

So yes, you can tell a lot by just knowing where someone is born to.

The problem is not with the Syrian doctors btw, I'm having a hard time imagining that they are the ones going on a rape-trip after they got asylum. But with your system, Syrian doctors are on the same level as those troublemakers.

r_z
03-25-2016, 01:35 PM
I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no clue, Volband. Either that or you're completely brainwashed by your countries "free" media. Your portrayal of refugees as criminals and rapists is ridiculous and basically racist. Seriously, how old are you?

reznovka
03-25-2016, 01:37 PM
Maybe I'm blind or outright stupid, but I don't see your point.
Money and your parents decide where you'll end up and even that's not everything.
As easy as it is to live in Germany you'll find a shitload of assholes and criminals on our streets, so where does you idea fit in there?
I worked at a psychic clinic for children and met a lot of families of poorly educated people with 7-8 children, all of them born in Germany and white.
Just because someone is born in Syria or Vietnam or Zimbabwe or Germany or France doesn't decided where he or she will end up.

Volband
03-27-2016, 10:55 AM
I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no clue, Volband. Either that or you're completely brainwashed by your countries "free" media. Your portrayal of refugees as criminals and rapists is ridiculous and basically racist. Seriously, how old are you?
Did they commit crimes? Yes. Did they commit sexual assaults? Yes. For the love of sanity, stop whitewashing them! No one said they are bad people, only that they have bad seeds among them. That's why I'm advocating a system, where you at least try to minimize the blow for everyone involved. You don't let literally everyone in, and dismiss their inevitable falling out (to a degree starting from somewhat understandable rioting, and totally unacceptable physical and sexual assaults), but you also don't pretend like you can't even house at least a couple thousand refugees for a while, or that they will be surely impossible to live.
@reznovka (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=471) First of all, you have much less control of what people in your own country become. Every country's aim to ensure its citizen have good financial conditions and a paved out way of education. Why? Because if you are not stupid and poor, you are less likely to be a growing pain on your country's back. With the refugees, we have the luxury of knowing beforehand who are we dealing with exactly. For example, maybe, just maybe, give priority to families or educated people, over a group of let's say a group of 21-24 years old Syrian males who just came because they want to "make it big." As I said, a Syrian doctor, mother or child are a "bit" less likely to be the culprits of crimes like what happened on New Year's eve in Germany. These people are also much easier to employ. (edit: well, my last sentence is actually debateable, I guess)

And yes, there are poor and uneducated white people too. Once again, missing the point, but here's a question to backtrack you on it: how many of them ended up with college degrees? I'm really not sure why in 2016 I have to explain to grown people that no, we are not literally the same, and yes, where and how you grow up have an enormous effect on what you might become, or at the very least the possibilities you will be able to have and not have. Being a German or Syrian by itself does not tell us much, but if you dig deeper, then it can be a different story.

But let's sum it up:
- Germany has no idea how to integrate the refugees.
- Germany can't even keep them put, which means they can't even solve the living conditions of the refugees.
- Germany (and Sweden) tried its best to cover up for crimes committed by refugees, whether it was them beating someone up, or sexually harassing a citizen or more.
- Germany would most likely not find a terror cell if it was sitting right on top of her nose.
- Germany's (and your) conclusion is that the way the refugee situation has been handled worked out stellar so far, so the obvious next step is to keep letting everyone and their cousin in.
- Refugees keep drowning in their attempt to Greece, and poor Greece hasn't even got the money to sustain itself, let alone the rioting refugees stuck on its coast.
- We had two terror attacks in Europe since the refugee crisis, and while some people were afraid from the refugees from the very start, these attacks made it so easy to engulf lots of minds with more fear and animosity. It sucks for both the refugees and the EU people.
- I propose that maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe after these colossal political failures (which costed refugees lives and the safety of the citizens) we could at the very least switch some things up, instead of pouring gasoline on to the fire, and pretending that if we really want to believe, with the power of humanity that fire will be put out. I just said at least try it with water a bit too, on the off-chance it works.

Conclusion? I'm racist. Ayyyyy. Still like talking to you guys more, than your right wing "buddies", because at the very least your ignorance fuels a great cause, so basically you are the cheerleaders of society, and even though your team is down to 0-30, you keep cheering. Hey, maybe in the coming months I'll have to eat my words, because you will be telling me "Hey @Volband (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3656), not sure if you heard it, but 25% of the refugees are already working, another 40% is getting ready to finalize their papers, and the rest are waiting patiently in refugee camps which are now not overstuffed at all. The crime rates of them plummeted down to zero, except a few instances where right wing extremists tried to provoke them. We expect X number of additional refugees to come in within the next half year, but we are almost finished with the facilities for them. Eat that!!" Here's hoping. Maybe Merkel knows best, and with her incoming success, she will cement herself not only into the German politics, but in the EU one as well, as one of the greatest leaders of all time.

reznovka
03-27-2016, 11:34 AM
The assholes who raped women on new years eve weren't refugees. They lived here for years.
On the "real" Oktoberfest in Germany we have about 10 rapes every year but no newspaper is interested in it, because it's a german tradition.
The rate of crimes committed by foreigners is higher now but in comparison to the number refugees we greeted in 2015 the rate actually fell.
The media had no other topic than the NYE rapes for weeks and our police stopped 3 terror cells in the last years.

And if you'd be right and it really does matter where you're born, would it be right for us to deny them permission to chances and a better life?

Volband
03-27-2016, 12:10 PM
According to Facebook, I've got bombed in Pakistan. You guys also getting this? <current year> is... weird so far.



On the "real" Oktoberfest in Germany we have about 10 rapes every year but no newspaper is interested in it, because it's a german tradition.
Wait, wha--

Actually, I'm probably better off not asking anything. I've just seen a girl eating three punches then still following her (I assume) boyfriend while sobbing, so I'm done rationalizing for today.



And if you'd be right and it really does matter where you're born, would it be right for us to deny them permission to chances and a better life?
No, but do it with an actual, systematic plan. Wanting to help and actually helping are not the same.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2016, 12:11 PM
my dumb fucking representative is pushing US-wide legislation on burner phones, trying to take advantage of the Brussels attacks.
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-targets-burner-phones-after-brussels-attack-2016-3

yes, let's have 7-Eleven (gas station chain) be responsible for processing and holding peoples social security numbers. what could go wrong?
yes, ID requirements for voting is unjust but for basic communication? "lol fuck the poor people" Doesn't matter that this is a trivial hurdle to bypass for someone with a little money... like a terrorist. Fake ID's a fucking cheap. Highschoolers have plenty of them.

Mantra
03-27-2016, 12:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...isn't Germany --and the EU as whole-- currently suffering from a population crisis due to falling birth rates? In fact, this article (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/23/baby-crisis-europe-brink-depopulation-disaster) says that Germany has the lowest birth rate in the entire world, with only 8.2 births per 1,000 people. Holy shit. The birth rate for the whole EU is only 1.55 births for every woman, so doesn't that mean that European population as a whole is currently shrinking? That seems like a disaster for the future of the economy.

So in light of the population crisis, wouldn't a mass influx of immigrants actually be a healthy thing?

DigitalChaos
03-27-2016, 12:16 PM
If this happened 20-30 years back, we would probably have a much better outcome. Actual policing is how this kind of thing gets solved. Instead, we have stripped resources from this "old way" and put it toward NSA style intel gathering that lets so much more slip through the cracks. ISIS has repeatedly shown to be low skill, yet they still aren't stopped with current methods.
Revisiting this now that the following has been revealed:

The Mafia Runs Guns for ISIS in Europe (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/24/inside-the-mafia-isis-connection.html)
&
Viewed as gangsters, Brussels bombers were able to plot unseen (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-belgium-blast-bombers-idUSKCN0WS07Q)

So, again... you want to reduce this stuff? Policing! Not an increased focus in NSA style surveillance.

Jinsai
03-27-2016, 12:39 PM
Fake ID's a fucking cheap. Highschoolers have plenty of them.

There's a block of road here in Los Angeles where all the high school kids go to get fake IDs. I went down there with a friend of mine to get one when I was fifteen. I went to the same location a few months ago to go to this really awesome pastrami place there, and I still got several unsolicited offers for a fake ID. I'm 36, and I've recently developed a streak of gray hair.

I'm hoping this sort of suggestion is just a fake out, intended to make the people who want to commit terrorist acts laugh and gain a false sense of security... and not, y'know, a REAL suggestion of legislation intended to stop terrorism.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2016, 12:49 PM
There's a block of road here in Los Angeles where all the high school kids go to get fake IDs. I went down there with a friend of mine to get one when I was fifteen. I went to the same location a few months ago to go to this really awesome pastrami place there, and I still got several unsolicited offers for a fake ID. I'm 36, and I've recently developed a streak of gray hair.

I'm hoping this sort of suggestion is just a fake out, intended to make the people who want to commit terrorist acts laugh and gain a false sense of security.

That's actually really interesting. I always wondered if the "old" channels for IDs stayed open after the internet channels popped up. Getting one customized exactly as you want, with your photo, belonging to any state, and perfectly done is something being openly done now. There are even subreddits for it. A fake ID will 100% bypass the national firearms background check system too. But that's another topic. My point is that there are a lot of demands for fake IDs that go beyond adjusting your DOB. There is enough demand for it that people will apparently try and offer it like it were as popular as weed.



Edit: on your last point... Burners are actually a big red flag in surveillance, but the Rep behind this legislation is unlikely to be clued into that. It strikes me as typical CA legislation wrapped in "do something"

Volband
03-27-2016, 02:13 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but...isn't Germany --and the EU as whole-- currently suffering from a population crisis due to falling birth rates? In fact, this article (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/23/baby-crisis-europe-brink-depopulation-disaster) says that Germany has the lowest birth rate in the entire world, with only 8.2 births per 1,000 people. Holy shit. The birth rate for the whole EU is only 1.55 births for every woman, so doesn't that mean that European population as a whole is currently shrinking? That seems like a disaster for the future of the economy.

So in light of the population crisis, wouldn't a mass influx of immigrants actually be a healthy thing?
Don't know about Germany, but my country is definitely not helping the statistics. There has been attempts to try to keep (welp, chain) the young at home, and right now there's a plan being discussed where you get a shitton of free money and a free family house if you agree to have at least 3 children.

While the economy surely welcomes all hands on deck, you have to think about national integrity as well. Settling down refugees does not help the abyssmal birth rates (as they will be more likely to make a family within their own circle, and even if race mixing happens, it takes someone out from those statistics), and down the road, if the refugees will have a much healthier birth rate, then we have a problem at our hands. But I'm out of ideas why frontliner W-European countries like Germany has such problems. I always assumed low birth rates is an occurance at countries where you don't have enough social securities, so you rather plan for one child, instead of risking starvation.

reznovka
03-27-2016, 02:21 PM
Germany has a strong economy and men and women work equally and a child might stop or slow down your career. As strong as our social secruity may be, it's hard for women, especially single-moms, to get a good job and when you're working 8hours a day, 6 days per week, you can't find space for children in there. It's a generation thing too. A lot of people don't want their short time relationships be manifested by a child and going out is harder too. So most people wait until their late 30s to get their first, in most cases only, child.

Volband
03-27-2016, 02:24 PM
Germany has a strong economy and men and women work equally and a child might stop or slow down your career. As strong as our social secruity may be, it's hard for women, especially single-moms, to get a good job and when you're working 8hours a day, 6 days per week, you can't find space for children in there. It's a generation thing too. A lot of people don't want their short time relationships be manifested by a child and going out is harder too. So most people wait until their late 30s to get their first, in most cases only, child.
So why don't you make maternity leave worth it? If they can return to their job and get a good sum every month while being home with their children, then unless we are talking about positions like CEO, you could safely take a maternity leave.

Mantra
03-27-2016, 03:08 PM
While the economy surely welcomes all hands on deck, you have to think about national integrity as well. Settling down refugees does not help the abyssmal birth rates (as they will be more likely to make a family within their own circle, and even if race mixing happens, it takes someone out from those statistics), and down the road, if the refugees will have a much healthier birth rate, then we have a problem at our hands.

But...isn't this just another way of saying "keep Europe white"?

Despite the initial struggles, it seems like the mass immigration influx should be a positive thing. Europe needs more people and, in particular, way more babies, or they are almost mathematically guaranteed to face economic collapse in the future. Meanwhile, there are all these refugees who would like to make Europe their new home. Seems like an obvious win-win situation.

It's hard for me to understand why anyone would reject that in the name of "preserving national integrity."

reznovka
03-27-2016, 04:54 PM
But...isn't this just another way of saying "keep Europe white"?

Despite the initial struggles, it seems like the mass immigration influx should be a positive thing. Europe needs more people and, in particular, way more babies, or they are almost mathematically guaranteed to face economic collapse in the future. Meanwhile, there are all these refugees who would like to make Europe their new home. Seems like an obvious win-win situation.

It's hard for me to understand why anyone would reject that in the name of "preserving national integrity."

*signed*
Volband
Nobody says that it'll be easy but we are able to have a good outcome for the whole situation when we're willing to give those people a real chance.

Volband
03-29-2016, 12:44 PM
But...isn't this just another way of saying "keep Europe white"?

Despite the initial struggles, it seems like the mass immigration influx should be a positive thing. Europe needs more people and, in particular, way more babies, or they are almost mathematically guaranteed to face economic collapse in the future. Meanwhile, there are all these refugees who would like to make Europe their new home. Seems like an obvious win-win situation.

It's hard for me to understand why anyone would reject that in the name of "preserving national integrity."
There is "not keeping Europe white" with having mixed couples and there's "not keeping Europe white" with ethnic people having a much higher birth ratio within their group. The problem with the latter that it will lead to cultural differences and opposition. In a hypothetical scenario a hundred years from now, these once-refugees could have every right to change the majority of churches into Islamic ones. Why should they follow the European traditions, ceremonies, whatever, when they have their own and they are continously overgrowing the Europeans? No nation should be brought into an existencial crisis just to cater for its guests.

No, if you want to settle in Europe, then first and foremost, learn the language of the country you live in (rip Belgian refugees) then adapt and accept OUR culture. You don't have to follow it, but you better not make a fuss about all the crosses all around the city for example, saying it offends you.

So yes, refugees coming in can solve the problems of empty workplaces, but no, it by no means a solution to the declining birth rates. If Europe wants to hold onto its culture, then they either:
1. basically convert 90% of the refugees to leave their bubbles and mingle with non-refugees and find a partner from non-refugees (and that requires the non-refugees' willingness as well. I guess it will be somewhat of a taboo to get together with a refugee)
2. make it so the European people doesn't have to think it over 10 times whether they want to have at least one children or not. It is very, very, very abyssmal news if not even the West could solve this issue.

And yes, technically, if this issue would indeed turned out to be unsolveable, then I guess letting in other cultures to make it to their own is still better, than having an empty continent. But that's something none of us will live to see, because it's a long process.

Khrz
03-29-2016, 01:25 PM
No nation should be brought into an existencial crisis just to cater for its guests.

Right, because a rapid shift in population, culture and religion has never happened before in European history...
That still sounds a whole lot like "these muslims are invading us !". They're still far from it, and honestly, so what... Nations evolve, that's what Europe is. Once were the celts, then the romans, then the christians, the communists, the imperialists, so on, so forth. Shit happened, then settled in. It's not like most European cultures aren't already reduced to a propped-up corpse...

Volband
03-29-2016, 02:19 PM
Right, because a rapid shift in population, culture and religion has never happened before in European history...
That still sounds a whole lot like "these muslims are invading us !". They're still far from it, and honestly, so what... Nations evolve, that's what Europe is. Once were the celts, then the romans, then the christians, the communists, the imperialists, so on, so forth. Shit happened, then settled in. It's not like most European cultures aren't already reduced to a propped-up corpse...
Ummm...

After the fall of the Western Roman Empire (and thus the Ancient Ages), if you wanted to summarize Europe in the Middle Ages with just one word, then Christianity would have been a good choice. Christianity is something that survived to this very day - yes, politics are now secular, but saying that religions changed... Not at all. Every change in the last 1000 years was just some form of advancement or another iteration of Christianity, whether we are talking about the division of Christianity or the Church of England. The Soviet Union tried to force its views on the part of Europe they held hostage, but with what success? Visit any Eastern-European country and you can start counting the crosses yourself. We were under Russian influence until '89, but despite that, out of the 6 elections after that, 3 of them were won (cojointedly) by the Christian party as well. (And everything they suggest or force through are the most moronic stuff you could think of, but that's besides the point)

Population changed? Sure, first The Black Death came, then the Industrial Revolution. But it had nothing to with ethnics. Nations were just as proud back then as today, except at that time they could do basically anything, as we did not have basic human rights. If you were an ethnicity you could have one and only one saving grace: you were willing to fight viciously. If you defended the kingdom you lived in bravely, then you might got rights. But other than that, you were a 2nd or 3rd degree citizen only.

I learned about a nation which succesfully fought for their rights and did not let themselves to be pushed around. Though it had an ugly end, the power and effect of the French Revolution on our modern history is undisputeable. It made everyone realize that people have power now, and you can't just swipe them away saying "oh they'll just live with it, what else could they do?" Hungary has two days honored by Google, and one of them is for the Revolution of '56 against the Soviet regime, which tried to force itself on it's slave countries. Other countries followed suit, and though we got rekt pretty hard, it showed that nope, you still can't just say to people that they will live in a world 180 degree different from what they used to, and expect them to just obediently swallow it.

Not sure how the Celts or Romans come to the picture though. Romans were advanced people while Europe had savage barbarians. If anything, Romans were the first to give us something remotely resembling as being a nation, and when actual kingdoms in Europe were founded, they cemented their power by forging their people under one banner, making them feel like a true nation. So basically you either adopted Christianity or got majorly fucked.

Europe may had "some" (haha) infights, but the cultures of the (now) UK, (now) Germany and France have never been shaken. Hell, freakin' Germany stood up from zero TWICE now; you've got to give credit to the German people for even existing today, let alone being the major power they are. Yes, some cultures and major powers got dissolved along the way, like Prussia, Poland (they came back, welcome back!), or Austria-Hungary, but we also got new relevant countries like the united Italy or the free Spain. Though Spain was a badass even back then, so maybe I should've listed it among the first three.

Europe's demise has already started, no one can deny that. Germany, France, they all had problems with ethnics even before the refugee crisis, and they were falling behind of the likes of the USA, China or Russia. The latter two where they solved their ethnics problems with middle-aged tools. You won't see refugees in Russia or China, that's for sure, and as for the USA, seems like building a wall to keep a certain ethnic group out is at the very least will net you a presidential nominee, so there's that to think about.

You are saying if it's broken why even try to fix it, why not just embrace and hasten a new age? A good question, since I have no answers as to how we could keep our culture intact. Germany will surely rather rename itself Syria within 200 years, than to even make any attempt in their policies which might alienate ethnics - WW1 but especially WW2 made it so that they have to be in a 300% political correct state to distance themselves from the past events as much as possible. Germany is the ex who cheated on you twice, so even though she is paying for everything you do, and supports you in every way, if you catch her to even glimpse on another man, she's done for. Though it should have nothing to do with why German people don't want to have more children. If ever in doubt, money is always the answer - throw at them free money and let those lil' babies eventually pay it back to you just by existing. Then again, it's surely a more complicated matter.

I didn't say Syrians are coming here to conquer. It's just basic stuff that if you forcefully inject so many new people from an entirely different culture into your vein, then they will stick together - just as we would. And if you can't keep them in the minority, then they will have every right to take bigger and bigger bites from the cake.

allegro
03-29-2016, 02:50 PM
LOL, Mr. Volband is making Donald Trump look like the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

The U.S. doesn't even have any of its own "culture" (other than maybe Native American and African American) so I don't even know what any of this means. Other than hearing my mother, a typical WASC, living in the League of Nations in her condo building, and she keeps bitching about how none of them SPEAK ENGLISH GOD DAMN IT, and that the Polish want to turn it into a POLISH VILLAGE, THIS IS AMERICA. But they all send their kids to POLISH SCHOOL to learn POLISH and the little kids don't know any English and the adults only buy Polish vodka so "why are they here?" if they only want to live among the Polish people and send their money back to Poland? And they're so CLIQUE-Y, OH.MY.GOD, BECKY. And this drives the Americans in my mother's building nuts. So, yeah, Syrians, Polish, Russians, Indians, Mexicans, whatever, insert your favorite hated interloper [here], they're speaking a language we can't understand and it's like the Korean manicurist episode of Seinfeld.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn_id7JQH0o

Ultimately, the Syrians' dreams is to ... drum roll, please ... go back to Syria.

Just like those Poles in my mother's building want to go back to Poland. They don't want to assimilate because they ain't plannin' on STAYIN'. They just want to go home. And, they're trying to keep their OWN culture alive, too. (meanwhile, they're bitching about the Mexicans in the building. and they REALLY hate the Russians in the building.)

Volband
03-29-2016, 04:28 PM
LOL, Mr. Volband is making Donald Trump look like the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

The U.S. doesn't even have any of its own "culture" (other than maybe Native American and African American) so I don't even know what any of this means. Other than hearing my mother, a typical WASC, living in the League of Nations in her condo building, and she keeps bitching about how none of them SPEAK ENGLISH GOD DAMN IT, and that the Polish want to turn it into a POLISH VILLAGE, THIS IS AMERICA. But they all send their kids to POLISH SCHOOL to learn POLISH and the little kids don't know any English and the adults only buy Polish vodka so "why are they here?" if they only want to live among the Polish people and send their money back to Poland? And they're so CLIQUE-Y, OH.MY.GOD, BECKY. And this drives the Americans in my mother's building nuts. So, yeah, Syrians, Polish, Russians, Indians, Mexicans, whatever, insert your favorite hated interloper [here], they're speaking a language we can't understand and it's like the Korean manicurist episode of Seinfeld.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn_id7JQH0o

Ultimately, the Syrians' dreams is to ... drum roll, please ... go back to Syria.

Just like those Poles in my mother's building want to go back to Poland. They don't want to assimilate because they ain't plannin' on STAYIN'. They just want to go home. And, they're trying to keep their OWN culture alive, too. (meanwhile, they're bitching about the Mexicans in the building. and they REALLY hate the Russians in the building.)
You are right, you don't have your own culture, so with all due respect, let's not compare the USA with Europe in this regard. Have you been in Europe? We have buildings dating back 2000 years and almost every city is built around the same principle. Everywhere you go, you see culture and buildings, statues, plaques, whatnot honoring it. You can walk on roads which were originally built by the Ancient Romans, but even if you just take a regular tour with a guide, he or she can tell you something interesting about every corner. Most Europeans have a very strong connection to their nationality, and they are proud of what makes them to be. After all, most of us has at least a 1000 years old of tradition if not more. I'm not saying we are giving a kiss to our national flag every night and moning, we just simply has a sense of healthy existence. That's why you can't really say "you've been to Europe", only the countries you've been, since the moment you cross a border you are somewhere entirely new - for better or worse.

You can't just say "well, we are not even 300 years old, and we were created pretty much artificially, but...", just no. Even your own war for revolution was won with the help of European soldiers. I like the USA, would totally visit the shit out of it, but please... comparing cultures in this case is pointless, and you are doing a rather shitty job with the minorities as well.

The reason I mentioned Trump is to showcase that even in one of the most influential country in the world, it is possible to be a presidential nominee on the back of opposing ethnics and drumming up the fear of nationalitism (or as it is called in the USA, patriotism) in the people. The basic education in Europe might be superior to the USA's, but that's might still not be enough to prevent such people getting elected here as well.

You brought up something interesting though. If Syrians want to go back to Syria eventually, but they can't, then that's an even bigger hinderance to integrating them. Cooling the tensions between Syrians and the citizens is a big meat to chew on its own, but if not even the Syrians would like to stay or adapt... Then I guess we'll have the longest and most expensive starng competition ever.

edit: I forgot to mention a dozen other things, but the first that came to my mind are the dishes! It's funny how entirely different the dishes can be in Europe. People who try Hungarian dishes for the first time are rather shocked how fucking spicy everything is, but many fall in love with it and are sad they can't even buy the propwer ingredients where they live. But when you grow up with said dishes, you don't even realize the food you've been stuffing yourself ever since you knew about yourself can be so exciting for those who haven't tried it.

Also, don't let Eastern-Europeans get you into drinking with them. You can't win. We have the most drunken countries this side of Europe.

allegro
03-29-2016, 09:55 PM
The Syrians are still planning to go back someday; they hope that someday they will get their homeland back; ask any Syrian.

And we DO have a culture: it's a melting pot of every culture of every immigrant who has come to this country and brought that thousand years of history with them. Accordingly, we have about 50 different types of ethnic restaurants in Chicago (Chicago even has several Hungarian restaurants (https://littlebucharestbistro.com/printable-menus/dinner) and a Hungarian Festival (http://www.tasteofhungary.com/)), about 20 different languages spoken, tons of different art and history cultures melded into our city, we are like a quilt of customs and heritages. And our huge country is just like that in different ways, dwarfing all of Europe with a mix of immigrants from all over the world. That's why you didn't get the joke about how we have xenophobes here who want them all to go "home" because these foreigners (who aren't foreigners and who actually live here) don't speak English and these xenophobe Americans want to surround themselves with English-speaking culturally-whitewashed Anglicans. But, honey, that horse left the barn 250 years ago.

But don't brag about drinking; this is a thread about people dying at the hands of terrorism, not a thread to brag about alcoholism. We have plenty of that in this country, too, trust me. See this about Native Americans, for instance (http://www.ibtimes.com/native-americans-tragedy-alcoholism-214046). This isn't the place for that discussion.

Look, 65 Pakistani Christians were killed by the Taliban on Easter, over 360 people were injured, mostly children killed in a children's park on the Easter holiday. But we aren't seeing this as front-page news or seeing sad cartoons because they were brown people.

Khrz
03-29-2016, 10:01 PM
Funny how the inexistant American culture is just steamrolling over the old world's, has been for 60 years now too...

Mantra
03-29-2016, 10:36 PM
There is "not keeping Europe white" with having mixed couples and there's "not keeping Europe white" with ethnic people having a much higher birth ratio within their group. The problem with the latter that it will lead to cultural differences and opposition. In a hypothetical scenario a hundred years from now, these once-refugees could have every right to change the majority of churches into Islamic ones. Why should they follow the European traditions, ceremonies, whatever, when they have their own and they are continously overgrowing the Europeans? No nation should be brought into an existencial crisis just to cater for its guests.

No, if you want to settle in Europe, then first and foremost, learn the language of the country you live in (rip Belgian refugees) then adapt and accept OUR culture. You don't have to follow it, but you better not make a fuss about all the crosses all around the city for example, saying it offends you.

Man, this is crazy. There is literally 0% chance that Europe is going to someday replace all their churches with mosques, lol. Your culture is not under threat. If anyone should be concerned about losing their culture in this new arrangement, it's the Syrians.

Assimilation is a natural and inevitable part of all immigration. Syrian immigrants are not going to "stick together" for a hundred years, at least not in the rigid way you seem to be fantasizing about. There is no historical precedent for what you are describing. It is literally impossible for Syrian immigrants to remain unchanged by their new lives in Europe because one's "culture" is a fluid and perpetually evolving thing. Yes, people hold onto traditions (and there's nothing wrong with that)...but the years go by as they forge new relationships and experience a new kind of day-to-day life, and they gradually start to become transformed people. And their children? Second generation immigrants are drastically different people than their parents. They feel a much deeper connection to the country they were born in than whatever country their parents came from. By the third generation, they're essentially "natives," and whatever form of their family's previous culture they still manage to retain is made possible only through a tremendous personal effort to "hold onto tradition," because everything they are surrounded by compels them to assimilate. Even then, their "original" culture is not really original at all at that point, but more of an imagined memory of something they have little to no first hand experience with.

I currently live in Minneapolis, which has an incredibly high population of Somali refugees and immigrants who came here after the Somali civil war broke out about 25 years ago, a situation that bears some similarities to the Syrian/European refugee situation. In fact, we have the highest Somali population in the entire world outside of Somalia itself. The cultural "integrity" of this place hasn't been diminished or compromised in the slightest. Instead, it's the Somali population who has become more and more Americanized as the years have gone on. With most of these current kids, if it weren't for their last names, you would have no way whatsoever of knowing their heritage comes from Somalia, or that they were possibly Muslim, because they are utterly indistinguishable from any other young American. Generally speaking, this is how immigration goes.

And if you're so concerned about people "sticking to themselves" and not assimilating, you might want to adopt a less culturally competitive mindset, as your current attitude will only encourage the kind of scenario you claim to be worried about. People are far more likely to stay isolated when they feel surrounded by hostility.

Volband
03-30-2016, 02:42 AM
The Syrians are still planning to go back someday; they hope that someday they will get their homeland back; ask any Syrian.

And we DO have a culture: it's a melting pot of every culture of every immigrant who has come to this country and brought that thousand years of history with them. Accordingly, we have about 50 different types of ethnic restaurants in Chicago (Chicago even has several Hungarian restaurants (https://littlebucharestbistro.com/printable-menus/dinner) and a Hungarian Festival (http://www.tasteofhungary.com/)), about 20 different languages spoken, tons of different art and history cultures melded into our city, we are like a quilt of customs and heritages. And our huge country is just like that in different ways, dwarfing all of Europe with a mix of immigrants from all over the world. That's why you didn't get the joke about how we have xenophobes here who want them all to go "home" because these foreigners (who aren't foreigners and who actually live here) don't speak English and these xenophobe Americans want to surround themselves with English-speaking culturally-whitewashed Anglicans. But, honey, that horse left the barn 250 years ago.

But don't brag about drinking; this is a thread about people dying at the hands of terrorism, not a thread to brag about alcoholism. We have plenty of that in this country, too, trust me. See this about Native Americans, for instance (http://www.ibtimes.com/native-americans-tragedy-alcoholism-214046). This isn't the place for that discussion.

Look, 65 Pakistani Christians were killed by the Taliban on Easter, over 360 people were injured, mostly children killed in a children's park on the Easter holiday. But we aren't seeing this as front-page news or seeing sad cartoons because they were brown people.
So you have a culture because you borrowed a bunch of stuff from other, real cultures? All right, call it that, it's still not comparable to, you know, actual culture. Personally, I like the history of Britain the most, but even mine is quite rich. The Tudors were dope.

The USA are certainly proud people, and hey, it is indisputable that you sorted your shit out back then, and when it came to warmonging, you showed the world how the power has shifted. I'd be proud too if my country had the power to liberate the shit out of everyone with a state of the art military. I adore your sense of "FUCK YEAH, MURICA!!!! We can do anything!"

Drinking or talking about enduring drinking is not alcoholism. I'm sorry if you can't hold your liquour, but that's not my problem - I merely commented on another cultural feat, that we do. Though I'm pretty sure the Germans are born with beer in their veins too.

And yes, do you see how pretentious we are? Attack in Paris? Thread. Attack in Brussels? Thread. Attack everywhere else? Meh.

Also, karma can leave me alone now! How is that it's ME who have to wait an extra 50 mins because there was a bomb-alert? Anyway, if this useless train explodes under me, give me a cool forum title or something. "Culture expert" would do it. Thanks.

Funny how the inexistant American culture is just steamrolling over the old world's, has been for 60 years now too...
That's a bit stretching it. The USA is not nearly as omnipotent as it might seem. And that streamrolling that happened was thanks to their military, aka financial situation. How on Earth is it related to culture. USA was artifically planted on a gold mine with great natural defenses against warmongers. Hooray?

Volband
03-30-2016, 03:36 AM
Man, this is crazy. There is literally 0% chance that Europe is going to someday replace all their churches with mosques, lol. Your culture is not under threat. If anyone should be concerned about losing their culture in this new arrangement, it's the Syrians.

Assimilation is a natural and inevitable part of all immigration. Syrian immigrants are not going to "stick together" for a hundred years, at least not in the rigid way you seem to be fantasizing about. There is no historical precedent for what you are describing. It is literally impossible for Syrian immigrants to remain unchanged by their new lives in Europe because one's "culture" is a fluid and perpetually evolving thing. Yes, people hold onto traditions (and there's nothing wrong with that)...but the years go by as they forge new relationships and experience a new kind of day-to-day life, and they gradually start to become transformed people. And their children? Second generation immigrants are drastically different people than their parents. They feel a much deeper connection to the country they were born in than whatever country their parents came from. By the third generation, they're essentially "natives," and whatever form of their family's previous culture they still manage to retain is made possible only through a tremendous personal effort to "hold onto tradition," because everything they are surrounded by compels them to assimilate. Even then, their "original" culture is not really original at all at that point, but more of an imagined memory of something they have little to no first hand experience with.

I currently live in Minneapolis, which has an incredibly high population of Somali refugees and immigrants who came here after the Somali civil war broke out about 25 years ago, a situation that bears some similarities to the Syrian/European refugee situation. In fact, we have the highest Somali population in the entire world outside of Somalia itself. The cultural "integrity" of this place hasn't been diminished or compromised in the slightest. Instead, it's the Somali population who has become more and more Americanized as the years have gone on. With most of these current kids, if it weren't for their last names, you would have no way whatsoever of knowing their heritage comes from Somalia, or that they were possibly Muslim, because they are utterly indistinguishable from any other young American. Generally speaking, this is how immigration goes.

And if you're so concerned about people "sticking to themselves" and not assimilating, you might want to adopt a less culturally competitive mindset, as your current attitude will only encourage the kind of scenario you claim to be worried about. People are far more likely to stay isolated when they feel surrounded by hostility.
1. I survived. Sorry.

2. This is the first post regarding this topic with actual, sane reasoning. It's like you live in the same world as I do and not same fairy tale written for 5 year olds. I shine when it comes to handling people who just spam mindless (left or right) propaganda (or mentioning America and culture in the same sentence), but I really can't do anything else with this except agreeing with it. Shame on you, please leave (/s). BUT the birth rate problem still needs fixing. For some reason, people did not feel like having more children, and the refugee situation won't change a thing.

And remember, I don't have a problem with accepting refugees in, or even all of them. My problem is that right now it's being handled awfully, which is bad for everyone involved.

reznovka
03-30-2016, 10:57 AM
Why is it bad for everyone or especially for you? The refugees are suffering, but they'll suffer more if we leave them stuck behind fences and walls. They won't take your job, your house, you wife or husband or anything else. All they ask for is a place to sleep, some food and some dignity.

r_z
03-30-2016, 06:03 PM
- Germany has no idea how to integrate the refugees.
- Germany can't even keep them put, which means they can't even solve the living conditions of the refugees.
- Germany (and Sweden) tried its best to cover up for crimes committed by refugees, whether it was them beating someone up, or sexually harassing a citizen or more.
- Germany would most likely not find a terror cell if it was sitting right on top of her nose.

Lol. Every single one of those points is insanely false. Get your facts straight.

Also, you'll love these: It's a fact that crime in Germany didn't rise since the arrival of refugees during 2015. Quite the opposite, actually, as crimes committed against refugees have been on the rise all year. Among those crimes committed by refugees sex crimes made for less than 1(!) percent.

So this time, let me break it to you:

- The vast majority of refugees do not come to the EU with the intention on comitting crimes.
- Rather they come to find protection and peace.
- Rumors about an increase in crimes in context of refugees coming to Europa (Germany) are wrong.
- There is no disproportional increase in crime because of the presence of asylum seekers.

Also, please imagine a room full of 1000 people. That's europe. Now, imagine 20 people entering that room. Those are the refugees. Please keep telling us about how our "national integrity" (whatever that is, yo) is in danger and keep a straigth face.

So to sum it up once more and get it over with:

- You are proposing to not let refugees into "our" countries, because there might be some (few!) (males!!!) among them, who might become criminals.
- Therefore you're putting every (male?) refugee under universal suspicion of being a criminal (that's racist, yo).
- Thus you are willing to let everybody else suffer the worst conditions on/around our borders and to let people die in horrible circumstances

Are you fucking crazy?

Exocet
03-30-2016, 06:32 PM
Lol. Every single one of those points is insanely false. Get your facts straight.

Also, you'll love these: It's a fact that crime in Germany didn't rise since the arrival of refugees during 2015. Quite the opposite, actually, as crimes committed against refugees have been on the rise all year. Among those crimes committed by refugees sex crimes made for less than 1(!) percent.

So this time, let me break it to you:

- The vast majority of refugees do not come to the EU with the intention on comitting crimes.
- Rather they come to find protection and peace.
- Rumors about an increase in crimes in context of refugees coming to Europa (Germany) are wrong.
- There is no disproportional increase in crime because of the presence of asylum seekers.

Also, please imagine a room full of 1000 people. That's europe. Now, imagine 20 people entering that room. Those are the refugees. Please keep telling us about how our "national integrity" (whatever that is, yo) is in danger and keep a straigth face.

So to sum it up once more and get it over with:

- You are proposing to not let refugees into "our" countries, because there might be some (few!) (males!!!) among them, who might become criminals.
- Therefore you're putting every (male?) refugee under universal suspicion of being a criminal (that's racist, yo).
- Thus you are willing to let everybody else suffer the worst conditions on/around our borders and to let people die in horrible circumstances

Are you fucking crazy?


The point is...the countries such as Serbia, Greece, Macedonia, Hungary, Austria, felt they had NO say...in what was happening.
Angela Merkel did not consult the other leaders. They were not prepared for 1.5 Million people crossing through their countries. it was forced on them. Without any debate.
What happened in their countries was decided by Germany. It felt like a loss of sovereignty...its not what the EU was about... Countries like Poland have distanced themselves from Germany now as a result and far right nationalist movements are springing up in response to how she handled it.
So now literally everyone from Pakistan to Congo to Afghanistan even people from Russia!!! are turning up on Greece's shores.
Where do you draw the line. 4 Billion in the world live in poverty.
it was a nobel cause but she handled it with the most insane naivety. So badly managed. Had she taken her time maybe she could have drummed up support instead she acted weirdly.

There has to be some sort better arrangement.

It IS a huge task intergrating 1 Million people from a different culture...some countries are not prepeared for it.

France and U.K have a few million Muslims...all came in from former colonies in much much smaller numbers over the course of 70 years.

And also I think its hard for people from newer countries in North America to understand the European mindset...countries like Italy are very protective of their culture and national identiy....
its not the same as North America.

Exocet
03-30-2016, 10:17 PM
Funny how the inexistant American culture is just steamrolling over the old world's, has been for 60 years now too...

I dont really understand this quote either.

Im from the U.K we speak the same language as America....the two countries are sort of related.....ive never felt America was dominating the U.K in terms of culture...its just always been the de-facto OTHER country...the number 2...for me.
In my life British culture dominates..but yet we have strong influential outsider we can feed off.

allegro
03-30-2016, 10:45 PM
And also I think its hard for people from newer countries in North America to understand the European mindset...countries like Italy are very protective of their culture and national identiy....
its not the same as North America.
This is what I was trying to explain, though: the United States is FILLED with people desperate to protect their European (and now Chinese!) mindset and culture and former national identity. We are a country filled with immigrants and children of immigrants trying to keep their cultures from the old world. A lot of our "culture" is the immigrants' culture.

The only reason the U.S. is so reluctant to accept Syrian immigrants isn't due to culture; it's because of racial profiling; after September 11, people assume that most Muslims are terrorists. All of the 9/11 terrorists were here on expired Visas. We lost 2,996 people on 9/11 and more than 6,000 people were injured. People here are still very scared.

Look, honestly, we do have our own "culture," all kidding aside. If you come here to visit, you will see and find lots of our own culture, and you don't need thousands of years of history to find it; baseball, hotdogs, basketball, southern food, barbecue, Tex-Mex, soul food, the blues, jazz and rock-n-roll were invented here, Vegas, jambalaya, catfish, the French Quarter, Key West, cowboys, country western, Nashville, most of the world's Michelin stars are here, Hollywood, Beverly Hills, New York City, Broadway, Wall Street, Chicago, Gangsters, the Motor City, Silicon Valley, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, it takes at least four whole days with no sleep to drive from the west coast to the east coast, and then we have HAWAII, talk about culture, Alaska and eskimos, Native American pow-wows, tons of world class museums, symphonies and operas, The American Dream, the list goes on and on. And we are filled with new legal and illegal immigrants every single day and unsecured borders.

But the base of our Statue of Liberty (a gift from France, La Liberté éclairant le monde, for our 100th birthday) says:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32300000/Statue-of-Liberty-statue-of-liberty-32363538-309-368.jpg

The thing about Syrian refugees is that most were escaping al-Assad, who was killing his own people with chemical weapons and killing medical workers and torturing women and children, and are now escaping ISIS. How is it easy to say "no" to people who are trying to escape such horrors? There is no "time" to wait in these instances. The United States is still dealing with the guilt of not having saved possibly millions of Jews during the Holocaust because the head of the Dept. of Immigration denied most visas to Jews at the time due to antisemitism.

Exocet
03-31-2016, 12:21 AM
, honestly, we do have our own "culture," all kidding aside. If you come here to visit, you will see and find lots of our own culture, and you don't need thousands of years of history to find it; baseball, hotdogs, basketball, southern food, barbecue, Tex-Mex, soul food, the blues, jazz and rock-n-roll were invented here, Vegas, jambalaya, catfish, the French Quarter, Key West, cowboys, country western, Nashville, most of the world's Michelin stars are here, Hollywood, Beverly Hills, New York City, Broadway, Wall Street, Chicago, Gangsters, the Motor City, Silicon Valley, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, it takes at least four whole days with no sleep to drive from the west coast to the east coast, and then we have HAWAII, talk about culture, Alaska and eskimos, Native American pow-wows, tons of world class museums, symphonies and operas, The American Dream, the list goes on and on. And we are filled with new legal and illegal immigrants every single day and unsecured borders.

But American Culture IS different...you are a country of immigrants..i love many aspects of Americn culture dearly but your only 230 years old .. all im saying is that its different to the European mindset. America has always been like its own planet....
Its not normal country...

allegro
03-31-2016, 01:15 AM
But American Culture IS different...America has always been like its own planet....
Its not normal country...
Maybe so, but it was still target to the biggest single act of Middle Eastern terrorism in history. Which is the subject of this thread (terrorism).

And, ultimately, not wanting Syrians in Brussels is not because Belgians don't want to disrupt their culture (an excuse) but due to fear. Of terrorism.

Which is exactly why the United States citizens are afraid of more Muslims coming here. Well, not all citizens, but some of them. Hence why Trump is so popular with a lot of Republicans right now, because Trump wants to "ban Muslims" from entering the country until this ISIS shit is straightened out. Because of fear; irrational fear, but fear nonetheless.

China is a HELL of a lot older than Europe. And our biggest group of new immigrants in the U.S. right now are from China. So the Chinese immigrants are deliberately leaving their culture to come here, choosing a better way of life over culture. Which is why all people leave their respective countries.

But Americans aren't afraid of Chinese, because they aren't terrorists.

During WWII, we put innocent Japanese Americans in internment (prison) camps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans), because we were afraid of them.

Also, just because this area was discovered by Europeans (and subsequently pillaged) in 1492 and this country was formally established in 1776 does not mean this area does not have thousands of years of history. Sue, the T-Rex now housed in the Field Museum of National History in Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_(dinosaur)), was discovered in South Dakota. Our Native Americans have resided here since 8000 BCE.

marodi
03-31-2016, 12:48 PM
And also I think its hard for people from newer countries in North America to understand the European mindset...countries like Italy are very protective of their culture and national identiy....
its not the same as North America.

Since Canada is part of North America (the continent):

You want to talk about people who are very protective of their culture and national identity? How do you think us Québécois managed to still talk French after being surrounded by the English for so long?

We have welcomed our fair share of refugees for a long time. They are welcomed to keep their culture and national identity too. But they have to learn French because le Québec est francophone, tabarnak! :P

botley
03-31-2016, 01:59 PM
Where are all the Western European and American refugees going to go, when their coastal cities start to sink under melting sea ice? As the waves of hundreds of thousands from poorer nations swept up in today's conflicts reach to us for help, we must regard it as an opportunity to prepare ourselves for the next hundred years of devastation and displacement across the entire globe, not just the scary Muslim places in the Middle East. Terrorism is going to be old news, there's a larger threat to everyone's survival that is all but completely ignored today. Trying to stop migration now is like building a dam in your backyard to stop a tsunami. Find higher ground, and lend a hand to help whomever you can.

DigitalChaos
05-24-2016, 01:16 PM
Two French Festivals Drop Eagles of Death Metal After Jesse Hughes' Comments

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/french-festivals-drop-eagles-of-death-metal-after-jesse-hughes-comments-20160520

DigitalChaos
06-30-2016, 12:47 PM
The guns used in the Paris attack may have come from the US, through the Fast & Furious scandal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal).

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/06/foghorn/breaking-guns-used-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-phoenix-arizona/

Jinsai
06-30-2016, 01:04 PM
The guns used in the Paris attack may have come from the US, through the Fast & Furious scandal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal).

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/06/foghorn/breaking-guns-used-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-phoenix-arizona/

This is a huge deal.

Unfortunately it boils down to discussion like this (from the comments section of the website there): "Not quite sure about this article…Is it a “pro-gun control” piece..? That we should have “stricter, regulations ” like a foreign country like France? Or that the so-called “terrorist firearms” were somehow connected to the USA through a so-called “American gun owner ” ? Don’t know…..Is the point of the article related to “Fast and the Furious 7.5 : The Whitehouse Edtion.” Or because some parts of the USA aren’t under the “Jack boots ” of local/state police, as is the rest of the US populace living in “anti-freedom states.” Or shall I say , “Authoritarianism-crystal lite…” Don’t know about this article….."

I don't know what the angle is with this website. I don't know if it's "pro-gun" or anti or whatever, I don't know if they're conservative or liberal...I just don't even know where to start to weigh in on the issue regarding the fact that the guns used in the Paris shootings originated from the US. There seems to be some hand-washing by shifting the blame to the "fast and furious" scandal. I just don't know. I'm dismayed that we can't talk about something without worrying what the spin is.

Khrz
06-30-2016, 02:08 PM
Inb4 "French people/white flags" joke in the comments, aaaaaaaaaaaaand done. Well, there's no context where that joke couldn't be funny, am I right ?

DigitalChaos
06-30-2016, 06:51 PM
Jinsai it's pretty messed up that nobody can formulate an opinion unless they are presented with one that they can choose to agree or disagree with. You give them pure facts and they don't know what to think. It's really sad.

It either did or didn't happen. It hasn't been proven but there is enough info to have suspicion. That's it!

What would it mean if it did happen? Well, France would know that they were just attacked by guns that the US Govt deliberately let criminals get. That's pretty damning for the Obama administration, again, but it's unlikely to have any consequences. The US and its allies have a history of being attacked by people they helped supply. It's rare to see average citizens suffer the consequences so clearly though.

DigitalChaos
06-30-2016, 08:46 PM
Judicial Watch source for this story: http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/06/law-enforcement-sources-gun-used-paris-terrorist-attacks-came-phoenix/