San Bernardino Shooting [Archive]

DigitalChaos

12-02-2015, 02:50 PM

Yeah but it's still part of that same country that has the same mentality from West to East.
I'm way past the "gun control" argument. These shootings will continue occurring on a weekly/monthly basis and there's simply nothing you guys can do about it.

That's just what happens in the United States of America. So just sit back and put up with it.

I'm going back to my maple syrup and hockey.

Seriously. Get used to endless arguments on the internet that'll never solve anything, and the next one of these to hit y'all within a few weeks.

Well, exactly. The solution to this kind of thing isn't gun control. Until the political rhetoric moves away from that, we are stuck with this kind of thing. The fact that most gun control proposals in response to shootings is along the lines of something CA is already doing pretty much speaks for itself.

I don't see the rhetoric changing anytime soon. We are on this endless loop of "debating" whether killing someone is good or bad, it's just rephrased under different "major topics" (war, police violence, refugees, terrorism, etc). Throw in the ridiculous candidates we now have running and it's pretty clear we are not on a path to fixing this.

DigitalChaos

12-02-2015, 02:53 PM

I don't think there's a realistic solution to this problem.
Certainly not within gun control. There are other areas that could have an impact, but the rampage shooting incident rate is so fringe that it would be very hard to make a change. At least non gun control implementations would have huge benefits outside of just rampage shootings.

Sarah K

12-02-2015, 03:10 PM

Seriously. Get used to endless arguments on the internet that'll never solve anything, and the next one of these to hit y'all within a few weeks hours.

I fixed that.

Deepvoid

12-02-2015, 03:22 PM

So it looks like all three suspects were able to leave in a black SUV.

There are now reports of shots being fired at a Target store 10 miles away from the original location.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/shots-reported-at-target-store-10-miles-away-from-san-bernardino-inland-regional-center/

onthewall2983

12-02-2015, 03:57 PM

https://twitter.com/InlandRegional/status/671753208662888448

Jinsai

12-02-2015, 03:58 PM

onthewall2983

12-02-2015, 04:13 PM

3 shooters in a black SUV makes me think it might be a mob hit.

Jinsai

12-02-2015, 04:17 PM

3 shooters in a black SUV makes me think it might be a mob hit.

I don't understand... I mean, the multiple shooters aspect does make it unlikely that this is an attack motivated by sheer insanity... but a mob hit? Wouldn't that seem more likely if the target was specific? It seems like this was intended to just do damage.

Do we know what the event was that was being held today?

onthewall2983

12-02-2015, 04:26 PM

I'm not saying definitively what I think it is, but considering the details I and everyone else know about it, it sounds more strategic than just a guy randomly shooting up shit.

Jinsai

12-02-2015, 04:33 PM

well... that's certainly true.

I just heard a report that 20 people are confirmed dead.

EDIT: Holy shit... That's it, I want to punch this person. Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VYnQyJZmY&feature=youtu.be

DigitalChaos

12-02-2015, 04:52 PM

for fuck's sake... we don't even know anything about the shooters at this point. Leaping up to stress that gun-control isn't the solution is about as helpful at this point as insinuating that gun control would have prevented it. We don't even know what the fuck is going on right now.
this is the GUN thread. What is the point of posting this in the GUN thread if not to talk about the GUN aspect of the story? There is a lot more to the story than guns, but that makes it better for general headlines.

It's like posting this story in a car thread because they used a car to get away and then asking why people are talking about their use of a car.

marodi

12-02-2015, 04:58 PM

EDIT: Holy shit... That's it, I want to punch this person. Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8VYnQyJZmY&feature=youtu.be

I take it you haven't read the comment section of the EODM interview of last week. All of the band members are actors and the shooting at the Bataclan never happened because why isn't there any footage of it, man! All those people with cell phones! Total hoax... Freemason, Devil Worshipers and fucking Cthulhu man!

'Tis the season of the crazies...

Jinsai

12-02-2015, 05:07 PM

this is the GUN thread. What is the point of posting this in the GUN thread if not to talk about the GUN aspect of the story? There is a lot more to the story than guns, but that makes it better for general headlines.

It's like posting this story in a car thread because they used a car to get away and then asking why people are talking about their use of a car.
I'll wait until we know SOMETHING about what just happened before speculating how it could have been prevented. By all means, you're welcome to go into "guns are not the problem" mode. I mean, it's not exactly helpful or surprising. "Hey, there's been a shooting, I wonder what DigitalChaos has to say about it... Oh how shocking, he's smugly implying that gun reform isn't the solution. No way."

allegro

12-02-2015, 05:08 PM

Do we know what the event was that was being held today?
It's a building that houses an organization that helps people with developmental disabilities (http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-respond-reports-active-shooter-san-bernardino/story?id=35535995) like autism. Seriously, wtf. I don't get it.

The majority of the casualties took place in one area of the "massive" facility that employs several hundred people, Burguan said. A lunch meeting was going on involving state and county employees as well as a number of organizations, he added.

The San Bernardino County Department of Public Health was having a banquet in the conference area where the shooting happened, according to the CEO of the facility where the shooting took place.

Here's the organization's Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/inlandregionalcenter/).

CNN says it was a Holiday party (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/san-bernardino-shooting/).

Shadaloo

12-02-2015, 05:25 PM

Police chase currently in progress. (http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-34967929)

Jinsai

12-02-2015, 05:32 PM

Here's the organization's Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/inlandregionalcenter/).

god.... this is so horrible.

Lew

12-02-2015, 05:54 PM

god.... this is so horrible.

unreal. my husband just got in from work and asked if i had seen the news.
i truly do not understand how humans can do things like this to other humans.
:( it is almost numbing at this point.

Volband

12-02-2015, 05:56 PM

"If we could own guns, like in the USA, we could defend ourselves from terror attacks!!!" - some autistic people on my fbook feed after the Paris attacks. Yeah, no.

allegro

12-02-2015, 06:15 PM

The FBI isn't ruling out terrorist motives since there were multiple shooters and they all escaped from the facility.

One shooter is dead, one has been captured, one escaped. Highly planned, highly equipped. They were wearing masks.

14 people dead so far.

DigitalChaos

12-02-2015, 06:24 PM

The FBI isn't ruling out terrorist motives since there were multiple shooters and they all escaped from the facility.

One shooter is dead, one has been captured, one escaped. There may be one more that was driving the SUV, too. Highly planned, highly equipped.

14 people dead so far.

Like the Planned Parenthood shooting, this one is unlikely to fit the legal definition of terrorism. It's the same reason Dylan Roof was unable to be charged with terrorism.
https://theintercept.com/2015/12/02/activists-urge-attorney-general-to-call-attack-on-planned-parenthood-clinic-an-act-of-terror/

She seems to be the only one to have covered this delineation. It's interesting.

allegro

12-02-2015, 06:28 PM

Like the Planned Parenthood shooting, this one is unlikely to fit the legal definition of terrorism. It's the same reason Dylan Roof was unable to be charged with terrorism.
https://theintercept.com/2015/12/02/activists-urge-attorney-general-to-call-attack-on-planned-parenthood-clinic-an-act-of-terror/

She seems to be the only one to have covered this delineation. It's interesting.

The authorities have not yet released info if these guys have accents or anything like that. This is HIGHLY unusual as far as mass shootings go, with multiple shooters with AK-47s, wearing armor and black and masks.

14 dead, 17 injured.

CNN has experts on saying they have probably fingerprinted the dead guy and are running his prints. Retired CIA guy says reports are saying the guys were carrying IEDs.

DigitalChaos

12-02-2015, 06:33 PM

The authorities have not yet released info if these guys have accents or anything like that. This is HIGHLY unusual as far as mass shootings go, with multiple shooters with AK-47s, wearing armor and black and masks.

14 dead, 17 injured.

Right, but just guns and no "wmd" means it's not legally terrorism. Definitely check that article. I have a lot of respect for the author and her ability to dig into things. I've worked with her in the past for... other stuff.

allegro

12-02-2015, 06:36 PM

Right, but just guns and no "wmd" means it's not legally terrorism. Definitely check that article. I have a lot of respect for the author and her ability to dig into things. I've worked with her in the past for... other stuff.
It is waaaay too early for us to be assuming that that this is "just another shooting in the U.S."

Sarah K

12-02-2015, 07:01 PM

We gotta see if they are white or brown before we can say for sure.

allegro

12-02-2015, 07:11 PM

Okay now they're saying the guns were AR-15s and they were throwing pipe bombs out the SUV at the cops.

Waiting forever for this press conference, but they're still going door-to-door looking for missing shooter.

Deepvoid

12-02-2015, 07:41 PM

1 male and 1 female dead both wearing "assault style" clothing whatever that means. Potential explosive device found at the scene of the SUV.

FBI is saying there's a 3rd suspect.

allegro

12-02-2015, 07:42 PM

3rd "possible" suspect was detained.

FBI not ruling out terrorism yet.

Trying to determine if more people, possibly dozens, involved in planning.

At least one active bomb found in building, bomb squad still in building.

Swykk

12-02-2015, 08:00 PM

It IS terrorism no matter what fucking color these assholes are.

allegro

12-02-2015, 08:06 PM

FBI SWAT teams have surrounded the apt. in Redlands where the SUV went immediately following the attack (but were found and then were pursued). Another 3rd person now being pursued, potentially in that house. Robot sent in.

Authorities think at least one of the shooters was at the Dept of Public Health party, there was some kind of altercation, that person left and then returned with additional people wearing all black, masks, carrying AR-15s and pistols and bombs, etc.

Police spokesperson said shooters in SUV were throwing multiple IEDs out of car at cops plus shooting at cops.

Khrz

12-02-2015, 08:15 PM

Not possible, CA has some of the best gun control in the country!

One thing that amuses me, or irritates me I don't really know, is how you are consistently outraged by how gun control proponents are "climbing on the piles of fresh bloody victims to further their agenda", yet every time such thing occurs it's you I see yelling from the top of the corpse hill...

allegro

12-02-2015, 09:13 PM

Newer reports are saying whatever the shooters were throwing at cops from the SUV (besides shooting at the cops), they were not throwing pipe bombs but "something else." Wtf.

onthewall2983

12-02-2015, 09:47 PM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVREfv1WUAAk93_.jpg:large

Exocet

12-02-2015, 11:12 PM

So was this a terrorist attack? The Killer is Muslim..not White American... how does this change things.
There are loads of mass shootings in the U.S..this was done by a muslim...not a white american....what does this mean???
It also a big shooting for the U.S...14 dead 16 injured.
Biggest since Sandy Hook....
Had this happened in Europe it would be different...this shit rarely happens...but because its the U.S will this have a different impact.

Sarah K

12-02-2015, 11:21 PM

If by "have a different impact", you mean "have no impact at all".

Deepvoid

12-03-2015, 07:57 AM

If by "have a different impact", you mean "have no impact at all".

Of course it matters that they were Muslims. It's giving ammo to right wing pundits.

Erik Erikson this morning: "They [left-wing] peddle made up statistics on violent Christians and angry Republican. They refuse to acknowledge actual enemies to their freedom [...]. When the shooters turn out to be gay or Muslim or an environmentalist, the media sweeps it under the rug. So I guess we will spend a week talking about Islamophobia now."

TheRightScoop is blaming political correctness saying that a neighbor thought the suspects had been acting suspicious lately but refused to call the policy in fear of being called a racist.
Breitbart is saying the same thing "Political correctness may have played a role, as suspicious neighbors declined to report the suspects for fear of “racial profiling.”"

I mean really?!? The right is gonna start blaming political correctness for shootings?
I'd rather side with the gun control argument over some stupid bullshit like right is spewing out of their mouth.

Sarah K

12-03-2015, 08:10 AM

Deepvoid

12-03-2015, 08:17 AM

It's been a while since I've seen Cenk this mad. Skip to 2:50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTmQ_hom9e4

allegro

12-03-2015, 10:22 AM

These two left their 6-month-old baby at the baby's grandma's house before leaving to do this (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/03/they-were-a-couple-the-striking-difference-between-the-san-bernardino-suspects-and-other-mass-shooters/). Wtf.

DigitalChaos

12-03-2015, 11:24 AM

One thing that amuses me, or irritates me I don't really know, is how you are consistently outraged by how gun control proponents are "climbing on the piles of fresh bloody victims to further their agenda", yet every time such thing occurs it's you I see yelling from the top of the corpse hill...

Dude. This was posted in the gun thread before the anyone was even caught. We had politicians (Hillary, Sanders, and others) yapping about the NRA and gun control before anyone was caught. Stupidity like that deserves nothing but the snide response I gave. For everyone doing that, there is no desire for truth--only agenda.

Sarah K

12-03-2015, 11:35 AM

Why is it okay to use for your agenda, though?

DigitalChaos

12-03-2015, 11:36 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVREfv1WUAAk93_.jpg:large

People who are promoting this are their own problem.
http://www.npr.org/2015/12/03/458312256/god-isnt-fixing-this-argument-divides-even-more-in-gun-debate

DigitalChaos

12-03-2015, 11:39 AM

Why is it okay to use for your agenda, though?

Snide
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/snide

Mocking the agenda of others is a whole lot different than saying "X happened and it's more proof of my existing agenda". In fact, it's cutting down the stupidity of pushing an agenda in that very way.

It's not ok for anyone to do it, especially without any facts on the table. I in no way intended to do so. My intent was to ONLY make fun of those who were.

Deepvoid

12-03-2015, 11:58 AM

People who are promoting this are their own problem.
http://www.npr.org/2015/12/03/458312256/god-isnt-fixing-this-argument-divides-even-more-in-gun-debate

I'd rather promote this headline than being on the other side of the fence.

http://www.redstate.com/diary/lifeofgrace/2015/12/03/prayer-shaming-know/

"God can fix it, if we’d only ask him. It’s called prayer. Prayerlessness is what caused this in the first place. Prayerlessness, so valued by the Left, is the poison that caused our sin cancer in America and they think more of the same poison will cure it. We’ve evicted God from our government, from our schools, from the public square, from marriage, and now the Left is trying to evict God from society in even the most stressful situations where prayer and comfort is most needed. Where God is not welcome, sin abounds. The Left expects people who live their lives without God to suddenly have goodwill, self restraint, and moral reasoning from some other source."

That "God isn't fixing this" headline should be named the headline of the year.

allegro

12-03-2015, 12:01 PM

"Prayerlessness, so valued by the Left."

What in the fuck are they talking about? They seem to think that the "left" are all "communists" even though communism doesn't even really EXIST anywhere, anymore. What a bunch of fucking morons.

Sarah K

12-03-2015, 12:10 PM

I'd rather promote this headline than being on the other side of the fence.
The Left expects people who live their lives without God to suddenly have goodwill, self restraint, and moral reasoning from some other source."

Wow. I had no idea that people actually believed that those traits could ONLY come from religion.

Goodness.

DigitalChaos

12-03-2015, 12:39 PM

I'd rather promote this headline than being on the other side of the fence.

that statement alone is just further playing into the divisive nature of the problem. You can't complain about the collective inaction of a country when you are actively playing into the division of it. I'm still confused about the collective action anyone actually thinks would help, but that's 2 steps ahead.

Deepvoid

12-03-2015, 12:48 PM

Wow. I had no idea that people actually believed that those traits could ONLY come from religion.

Goodness.

Unfortunately, that's what the religious right thinks.

that statement alone is just further playing into the divisive nature of the problem. You can't complain about the collective inaction of a country when you are actively playing into the division of it. I'm still confused about the collective action anyone actually thinks would help, but that's 2 steps ahead.

I'm referring you to my original post way back, which basically stated that this problem is beyond repair.

allegro

12-03-2015, 01:02 PM

Unfortunately, that's what the religious right thinks.
The religious right thinks a LOT OF SHIT.

We went through this crap in the early-80s, with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and the "Moral Majority" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority) and it was just a bunch of shit.

I mean, really, these people are nuts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK_hYsCkDH4

Deepvoid

12-03-2015, 01:15 PM

The religious right thinks a LOT OF SHIT.

We went through this crap in the early-80s, with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and the "Moral Majority" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority) and it was just a bunch of shit.

I mean, really, these people are nuts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK_hYsCkDH4

Hitchens laid the smackdown on Falwell a while back.
I liked Hitchens.

allegro

12-03-2015, 01:17 PM

Hitchens laid the smackdown on Falwell a while back.
So did Bill Maher :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz5T1EEo8ws

october_midnight

12-03-2015, 02:05 PM

Thought this (http://www.upworthy.com/a-furious-heartbroken-response-to-san-bernardino-that-everyone-needs-to-read) was a good read.

Sarah K

12-03-2015, 02:23 PM

Wow. I had no idea that gun deaths were on par, and likely to surpass automobile deaths.

That really puts some shit into perspective. Wild.

allegro

12-03-2015, 03:52 PM

Wow. I had no idea that gun deaths were on par, and likely to surpass automobile deaths.

That really puts some shit into perspective. Wild.

I still don't understand why fucking automobile deaths are still that high. LEARN TO DRIVE, PEOPLE!!!!!

DigitalChaos

12-03-2015, 04:31 PM

Dr Channard

12-03-2015, 07:15 PM

...

allegro

12-03-2015, 07:21 PM

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/3/syed-farook-tashfeen-malik-erased-digital-footprin/

clearly a planned attack.
they tried to wipe their digital footprints. They also rented the SUV several days before the attack.
She was here on a K1 visa from Pakistan, he met her online but then they met in person in Saudi Arabia. He's made two trips to Saudi in the last 2 yrs (1 for the Haj) and 1 to Pakistan. Authorities are saying he became "radicalized" over the course of the last few years.

Exocet

12-03-2015, 07:44 PM

But I mean the shooting will have no long term impact, as the US is a collectively stupid nation. We'll wait for the next mass shooting today or tomorrow, talk about all of the ways it could have been avoided, and then wait for the next one the day after that.

The world laughs at the US with very good reason. This it's our unnecessary reality.

The thing is.. your not a stupid nation...you pioneered space exploration, Nasa is the envy of the world, you invented the Nuclear bomb, you dominate the internet you excel in so many areas.
Yet you have the most retarded gun laws in the world....

Its like seeing a smart person self destructing.

allegro

12-03-2015, 11:15 PM

The thing is.. your not a stupid nation...you pioneered space exploration, Nasa is the envy of the world, you invented the Nuclear bomb, you dominate the internet you excel in so many areas.
Yet you have the most retarded gun laws in the world....

Its like seeing a smart person self destructing.

We DON'T have bad gun laws, that's the thing ... I think people outside of this country just don't know enough about this country to understand that our Constitution provides for "State's Rights" which is a very sticky issue supported by the United States Supreme Court, so each state has its own gun laws which cannot be totally controlled Federally. And most states have very strict gun laws but some don't have gun laws THAT strict but they still have pretty strict gun laws, and right now there is a lack of Internet gun regulations which is stupid, and even when we had a total ban on assault weapons, we still had this problem, and even when the City of Chicago banned guns for over 40 years, Chicago still had the highest number of gun deaths in the country. We DON'T have "retarded" gun laws, that's the thing. Most of our gun laws are actually very very strict. But we can't seem to stop people from doing this shit. Paris had this giant shooting with very strict gun laws, case in point. In the U.S., people are smuggling in guns illegally, from states and countries with less strict gun laws. People are making their own ammo. They are buying the guns online. We are a very violent country, and this particular shooting was likely related to Islamic terrorism, too.

And, you have to remember that a lot of the reason why people in this country continue to want to "bear arms" is related to the Civil War, wherein the South was fighting against the Government; and that NEVER WENT AWAY.

Dr Channard

12-03-2015, 11:39 PM

...

allegro

12-03-2015, 11:53 PM

And as a people, here we are, victims of our own desire. This nation in the year 2015, is dealing with a complex modern day issue, with a 1700’s mentality. If only our reasoning and ability to enact functioning laws could evolve with the needs of the times.
But these people this week had PIPE BOMBS. LOTS of them. While I am all for gun control, I am not so naive to not know that the guns are just a symptom and not a cause. Again, we are a VIOLENT country by disposition; we have been for 100s of years.

Bottom line is that the vast majority of gun owners in this country are not going to buy assault weapons, or stockpile ammo, or buy extra magazines, and most American citizens are FOR gun control because it will not affect them at all; they can still keep their own gun.

The SCOTUS has already viewed the 2nd Amendment as an evolving, organic piece of law; and has redefined it as same; and has upheld it.

Modern gun control laws are being controlled by gun manufacturer lobbyists, plain and simple. These lobbyists pay Congress members to make sure that assault weapon and high-capacity magazine sales are not affected. It's all about money and pocket-lining.

And so long as the People have zero trust in the Government, their "need" to protect themselves from the Government (and all other boogeymen) won't change soon.

Khrz

12-04-2015, 01:00 AM

Dude. This was posted in the gun thread before

I don't know man, I'm pretty sure mocking speed limit rethoric in a Cars thread after a guy rams his SUV in a crowd of people wouldn't sound right either.

Dr Channard

12-04-2015, 01:18 AM

...

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 01:43 AM

Modern gun control laws are being controlled by gun manufacturer lobbyists, plain and simple. These lobbyists pay Congress members to make sure that assault weapon and high-capacity magazine sales are not affected. It's all about money and pocket-lining.

Your last several posts are filled with extremely solid points. I just want to pull this bit out and connect it back in with your other comments about the culture in the US. I am assuming you are mostly referring to the NRA here. The NRA gets a lot of hate every time a shooting happens. They are viewed as some evil entity that is funded by "the corporations" and thus a corruption of democracy. I don't like the NRA, but that's a bunch of bullshit. Almost all of the NRA's funds (90%) come from their 5 million members and a shitload of individual donations that average $35 per. There is a small portion of funding that comes from corporate sources, but that is separated from any political action (by law).

The gun control lobbies are MUCH more funded by a small number of deep pockets (Bloomberg, etc). So, like it or not, the NRA is much more representative of "the people" (and gun control lobbies less so) than most want to admit.

http://i.imgur.com/RCRffnY.png

allegro

12-04-2015, 07:34 AM

So the real gun laws would appear to be, if you have the money to buy congress, they’ll grant you loopholes through which you can legally sell your guns to anyone.
Well, no. Only a handful of states (out of 50) don't require gun owners to first register with the state, with photo IDs, submit to background checks and then use those IDs to purchase guns or ammo, and those same IDs are pulled in an up-to-date database if the ID-holder has an Order of Protection against him/her, is convicted of a felony, etc.

These databases, however, do not have the power of ESP. They don't know that a citizen with a perfect record will buy a gun and shoot his coworkers at a news station. They don't know that a mother in Connecticut with a clean record will buy a gun and then her mentally ill son will steal the gun from a locked cabinet, kill his mother and then kill a bunch of school children.

(For the record, mental health records are protected by Federal privacy laws so the Government cannot legally require mental health professionals to submit data about their patients to any gun owner database; therefore, any mental health info is voluntary, from the potential gun owner, via a questionnaire, in states that include that info in background checks, which is most states. But, that person can lie, travel to another state that requires only a driver's licence and a felony check, or steal a family member's gun.)

Contrary to popular belief, there are very few "loopholes" except for Internet sales which imo should be banned. There has been pushback to change, e.g. the United States Supreme Court has already stated in opinions (and by its refusal to hear cases related to same) that it does NOT consider that the 2nd Amendment extends to high capacity weapons or magazines ("assault weapons"). Polls have shown that there are more voters against these weapons than for, but these politicians spin it so that they are afraid of losing the next vote when in fact they are afraid of losing MONEY for the next election.

See also the PLCAA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act). See also this (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_a gainst_gun_control_for.html). And this (http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/10/06/446348616/fact-check-are-gun-makers-totally-free-of-liability-for-their-behavior). See this (http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-03-14/why-gun-makers-fear-the-nra). See this (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150805/smith-wesson-contributes-1-million-to-benefit-the-nra-institute-for-legislative-action). And see this (http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/05/01/12591/gun-lobbys-money-and-power-still-holds-sway-over-congress).

For starters, the dollars and cents disparities are nothing short of staggering. The NRA and its allies in the firearms industries, along with the even more militant Gun Owners of America, have together poured nearly $81 million into House, Senate and presidential races since the 2000 election cycle, according to federal disclosures and a Center for Responsive Politics analysis done for the Center for Public Integrity.

The bulk of the cash — more than $46 million — has come in the form of independent expenditures made since court decisions in 2010 (especially the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision) essentially redefined electoral politics. Those decisions allowed individuals, corporations, associations and unions to make unlimited “independent” expenditures aimed at electing or defeating candidates in federal elections, so long as the expenditures were not “coordinated” with a candidate’s actual campaign.

In the decade before Citizens United, from the 2000 election cycle to 2010, much of the money was donated directly to campaigns. During that period, pro-gun interests so thoroughly dominated electoral spending as to render gun control forces all but irrelevant, having directly donated fully 28 times the amount of their opponents in House and Senate races, $7 million on the pro-gun side compared to $245,000 on the gun control side. Of the total expended by gun rights interests, fully $3.9 million was delivered by the NRA. Since the Citizens United decision, gun control interests have gained new financial muscle, thanks largely to independent expenditures totaling at least $11.6 million by activist New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and groups tied to Bloomberg — nothing to sneeze at, but still just a fraction of that $46 million in post-2010 gun rights money.

If by "retarded" laws you mean "inconsistent across all 50 states," then, yes, that's true. Assault weapons bans aren't even consistent within one state right now, as individual municipalities ban them within each state.

Dra508

12-04-2015, 09:52 AM

Photo shop fail
http://images1.dallasobserver.com/imager/u/745xauto/7828973/danpatrickcalifornia.png
http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dan-patrick-makes-big-san-bernardino-related-mistake-on-social-media-7828972

This pol is quite an idiot in sooooo many ways.

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 11:22 AM

Contrary to popular belief, there are very few "loopholes" except for Internet sales which imo should be banned.

Huh? I've never heard of this. It definitely doesn't exist for California residents. Are you referring to private sales? (Commonly mislabeled as "gunshow loophole").

Another "loophole" you could add is when someone creates their own gun. That's completely legal as long as they aren't doing so for personal use and they aren't restricted from gun ownership. There was a shooting in recent years where the guns were made instead of purchased.

That's just federal level. There are tons of loopholes at the state and local level. Every one I am aware of exists because gun control advocates have no idea what they are doing, not corruption by gun-rights advocates or gun mfg lobbying.

allegro

12-04-2015, 02:00 PM

Huh? I've never heard of this.
See this (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/want-buy-gun-without-background-check-armlist-can-help)...

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 02:42 PM

See this (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/want-buy-gun-without-background-check-armlist-can-help)...
ah yes, it's the private sale situation. Firearms dealers have no way of utilizing this. There is also nothing legally attached to the internet; it's just one of the many ways that private sellers can find private buyers. Internet forums, instagram, gun shows, classified ads, etc. They are just mediums that facilitate the connection of interested parties. The actual transaction must follow the same laws no matter where that connection occurs.

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 03:18 PM

what the hell is this?!
http://www.dailywire.com/news/1608/most-insane-thing-you-have-ever-seen-live-tv-ben-shapiro

That's nearly some Nightcrawler stuff right there. The investigation was, supposedly, already done but hooooly fuck what are they doing broadcasting all that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfgU5S36e6g

allegro

12-04-2015, 03:18 PM

The actual transaction must follow the same laws no matter where that connection occurs.
Okay so you didn't read that article I linked.

elevenism

12-04-2015, 03:29 PM

I'm with you guys on this one, Deepvoid , allegro ...
i, too am all for common sense gun control.

But no legislation is gonna stop this trend (short of rounding up every gun in the country, and we don't want THAT shit.)
I lived in a lot of ghetto ass places in dallas, and it was like "say man, if you need a piece, hit up apartment 321" and shit like that. Keep in mind that i've been forcibly committed before...i don't THINK i'm supposed to be able to buy a gun. No gun control is going to fix this. Guns exist. Thinking that gun laws will stop shootings is like thinking that drug prohibition was gonna work, you know?

Why does this shit happen here?
Why is the gun murder rate in detroit equal to that of fucking El Salvador, when just a few miles north in toronto, it's been pretty much a non issue for most of my lifetime?
I recently read that if New Orleans was a country, it would have the 2nd highest rate of gun violence in the world. Keep in mind that this includes places like Colombia and Somalia.

And this mass shooting thing has become as American as apple pie and baseball. This article (http://georgiapoliticalreview.com/what-makes-mass-shootings-uniquely-american/) explores it a bit, as did Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine." The pieces are thought provoking, especially BFC, but no one has a definitive answer.

This shooting made me cry. These were people who helped others for a living, and had gotten together for a holiday party. I can see their smiling faces as they talk about holiday plans, and see those smiles turn to horror. I can hear them begging not to be hurt, saying that they have children waiting for them to get home.
My heart is broken...again.

What's it gonna take?!

And if Ben Carson blames the victims again like he did at that other shooting, he better steer clear of me, on the cool.

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 03:30 PM

THIS is your fucking media

http://i.imgur.com/rwTExqb.png

http://i.imgur.com/YlizzY5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AodCNRT.jpg

allegro

12-04-2015, 03:46 PM

elevenism, this was beyond a mass shooting. This was an act of terrorism, like the one in Paris. The difference is that we have so many shootings, here (as I pointed out after the Paris shooting), it's like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." Nobody knows or cares about the difference between an angry-person shooting or a fame-seeking shooting or an Islamic-terrorist-motivated attack; they're just all "shootings." Even this one, where the people had 3,000 rounds of ammo stockpiled in the apartment along with an IED factory and 60 bombs and contact with a known terrorist group. Nope, just another shooting. I live in "Chi-raq" with more gun deaths than Americans killed in Iraq (https://news.vice.com/article/guns-money-death-and-the-dude-welcome-to-chiraq). But because they aren't "mass shootings" nobody seems to care as much.

This is a really interesting article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/05/gun-control-opponents-love-to-cite-chicago-so-how-does-it-compare-to-the-rest-of-america/).

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 04:04 PM

Okay so you didn't read that article I linked.
I sure did. Is there something you are misinterpreting? I know exactly what armslist is and it's just as I described: a mere classified listing.

Finding out about guns for sale via the internet changes nothing. It's the same as if they were doing it in person. A private seller must follow all gun sales laws in their jurisdiction. A private buyer must follow all gun laws in their jurisdiction. If there is cross-jurisdiction laws, those must be followed too. Firearms dealers are required to follow all the same laws that they are required to if it were a sale in their store. No loophole.

elevenism

12-04-2015, 04:09 PM

@elevenism (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2475), this was beyond a mass shooting. This was an act of terrorism, like the one in Paris. The difference is that we have so many shootings, here (as I pointed out after the Paris shooting), it's like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." Nobody knows or cares about the difference between an angry-person shooting and an Islamic-terrorist-motivated attack; they're just all "shootings." Even this one, where the people had 3,000 rounds of ammo stockpiled in the apartment along with an IED factory and 60 bombs. Nope, just another shooting. I live in "Chi-raq" with more gun deaths than Americans killed in Iraq.
True, true.
Act of terrorism or not though, it still brings up some of the same issues. These guns and ammo were bought LEGALLY, no? The shooters were american citizens, the husband worked for the company, it seems that he had trouble with people at work, and most importantly of all, pundits and politicians are using these dead people to promote their agendas.
I have to wonder if he BECAME radicalized BECAUSE of trouble at work.
IS hasn't claimed responsibility.
I see elements of both types of incident in this event, but maybe i'm wrong.

I will say this: this was not the strike IS has been threatening.
I anticipate multiple, coordinated attacks with a much greater loss of life. I can FEEL it.

allegro

12-04-2015, 04:23 PM

True, true.
Act of terrorism or not though, it still brings up some of the same issues. These guns and ammo were bought LEGALLY, no? The shooters were american citizens, the husband worked for the company, it seems that he had trouble with people at work, and most importantly of all, pundits and politicians are using these dead people to promote their agendas.
I have to wonder if he BECAME radicalized BECAUSE of trouble at work.
IS hasn't claimed responsibility.
I see elements of both types of incident in this event, but maybe i'm wrong.

The wife was a Pakistani citizen here on a K1 visa, he brought her home from Saudi. The FBI is still tracing the guns, don't know if they were bought legally, same with the ammo, the bombs were homemade using tools bought on the internet. He became radicalized after being to Saudi 2x and Pakistan 1x and meeting with various people on the internet. This is all on TV and in the papers, don't you have a TV, dude? His wife was at the party and somebody said something bad about radical Islam. His work was not likely their initial target but they had a sudden change of plans. He worked for the Health Dept testing public pool water.

allegro

12-04-2015, 04:31 PM

I sure did. Is there something you are misinterpreting? I know exactly what armslist is and it's just as I described: a mere classified listing.

Finding out about guns for sale via the internet changes nothing. It's the same as if they were doing it in person. A private seller must follow all gun sales laws in their jurisdiction. A private buyer must follow all gun laws in their jurisdiction. If there is cross-jurisdiction laws, those must be followed too. Firearms dealers are required to follow all the same laws that they are required to if it were a sale in their store. No loophole.

But they aren't following those laws, hence how a guy in IL with an Order of Protection against him (who could not buy a gun or ammo because of the Order of Protection that would prevent or suspend a FOID card) used Armslist to buy a gun and ammo via Armslist and then shot and killed his wife.

We can't STOP all private sales where people aren't following the laws and selling to felons, etc. But we can certainly make it a fuckload less easy by banning it on the internet, kinda like we try to do with drug sales.

Gun sales should occur through licensed dealers. Period. If a private seller wants to sell a gun, he should only be able to do it via a licensed dealer. Period. Gun and ammo sales should occur face-to-face, in person, and only with the person purchasing the gun and ammo (no strawmen, etc.)

elevenism

12-04-2015, 04:50 PM

The wife was a Pakistani citizen here on a K1 visa, he brought her home from Saudi. The FBI is still tracing the guns, don't know if they were bought legally, same with the ammo, the bombs were homemade using tools bought on the internet. He became radicalized after being to Saudi 2x and Pakistan 1x and meeting with various people on the internet. This is all on TV and in the papers, don't you have a TV, dude? His wife was at the party and somebody said something bad about radical Islam. His work was not likely their initial target but they had a sudden change of plans. He worked for the Health Dept testing public pool water.
hell yes i have a tv (although i only use it to watch my roku box there is a live news channel, but sheap is asleep in the hay in the bedroom.)
A lot of this information has just become available in the past couple of hours. (see this timeline (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2015/dec/04/san-bernardino-shooting-victims-named-live#block-5661f9b8e4b0a27a5f5fe1eb).) The FBI only declared this an act of terrorism 3 hours ago.
And as of an hour ago, the FBI doesn't know if the couple was radicalized abroad. And they are saying that they DID amass their arsenal legally.

Jesus, i don't want to argue with you allegro . You are half the reason i'm here.

I'm just saying that, while this is an act of terror, it also appears to share some similarities with the "workplace violence" type of shooting, and has DEFINITELY been treated as such by the politicians and media to a certain degree.

allegro

12-04-2015, 05:05 PM

hell yes i have a tv (although i only use it to watch my roku box there is a live news channel, but sheap is asleep in the hay in the bedroom.)
A lot of this information has just become available in the past couple of hours. (see this timeline (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2015/dec/04/san-bernardino-shooting-victims-named-live#block-5661f9b8e4b0a27a5f5fe1eb).) The FBI only declared this an act of terrorism 3 hours ago.
And as of an hour ago, the FBI doesn't know if the couple was radicalized abroad. And they are saying that they DID amass their arsenal legally. .
The wife pledged allegiance to ISIS in a Facebook post. The rifles were purchased by a BROTHER. It doesn't matter if they were radicalized here or abroad. The wife has only lived here 6 months but arrived a year ago (before that, she lived in Saudi and in Pakistan). They were married in Saudi Arabia. The wife did not work there in that building, nor did any of them; they were renting that facility for a holiday party. The wife did not work for the Health Dept., she was a stay-at-home mom; only the husband did. Experts are speculating that the group was a perfect target because they were unsuspecting.

Not EVERY act of Islamic extremist terrorism is directed or ordered by ISIS. But ISIS is now acknowledging that the act was committed by "two followers."

elevenism

12-04-2015, 05:46 PM

Not EVERY act of Islamic extremist terrorism is directed by ISIS.
I'm surprised that they haven't taken credit for it. They've taken credit for shit they clearly found out about at the same time the rest of us did, like that attempt in my old hometown of Garland.

also, this dude is CLEARLY LYING

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HujXxs1gbng

allegro

12-04-2015, 05:50 PM

I'm surprised that they haven't taken credit for it. They've taken credit for shit they clearly found out about at the same time the rest of us did, like that attempt in my old hometown of Garland.

also, this dude is CLEARLY LYING

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HujXxs1gbng
Nah, that's the brother IN LAW (like, the husband's sister's brother), they really didn't appear to know anything at all.

I guess ISIS is "encouraging" self-directed independent actions in the U.S.: "find a vulnerable and unsuspecting target and go after it." So Ted Cruz's plan of arming people for self-defense won't really work. Who takes guns for self-protection to an office Christmas party when you work for the County Health Dept.?

Answer: Nobody, except the terrorists.

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 05:56 PM

But they aren't following those laws, hence how a guy in IL with an Order of Protection against him (who could not buy a gun or ammo because of the Order of Protection that would prevent or suspend a FOID card) used Armslist to buy a gun and ammo via Armslist and then shot and killed his wife.

We can't STOP all private sales where people aren't following the laws and selling to felons, etc. But we can certainly make it a fuckload less easy by banning it on the internet, kinda like we try to do with drug sales.

Gun sales should occur through licensed dealers. Period. If a private seller wants to sell a gun, he should only be able to do it via a licensed dealer. Period. Gun and ammo sales should occur face-to-face, in person, and only with the person purchasing the gun and ammo (no strawmen, etc.)

Unless there is something I don't know about IL laws, the Internet allows for no legal difference. It sounds like your issue is with private sales being more relaxed than dealer sales. But that's exactly what I've been saying: that applies to all private sales, not just Internet sales (or the commonly talked about gun show).

If you are saying that the Internet makes it easier for people to break the existing laws, that's not a loophole.

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 06:01 PM

Who takes guns for self-protection to an office Christmas party when you work for the County Health Dept.?

Answer: Nobody, except the terrorists.

You uhhhh ever been to a gun friendly state? People who conceal carry do it constantly. It's no different than having their car keys on them. Fuck, I know people who carry inside of multi-football-field-sized data centers that rarely have more than a handful of people inside at a time.

This seems super silly to people who don't carry, but you need to realize the culture of the people who are making these statements.

elevenism

12-04-2015, 06:16 PM

Nah, that's the brother IN LAW (like, the husband's sister's brother), they really didn't appear to know anything at all.

I guess ISIS is "encouraging" self-directed independent actions in the U.S.: "find a vulnerable and unsuspecting target and go after it." So Ted Cruz's plan of arming people for self-defense won't really work. Who takes guns for self-protection to an office Christmas party when you work for the County Health Dept.?

Answer: Nobody, except the terrorists.
i still think he knows something.
And hell no Cruz's plan won't work. This isn't supposed to be a fucking BATTLEFIELD, you know what i mean?
The only time i think the "good guy with a gun" thing might work is with INSANELY carefully vetted armed guards at high risk locations such as schools and sporting events.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that if a terrorist ran up on Ted Cruz, he would cry and beg for his life, armed or not.

Please accept my apology on behalf of the State of Texas for the existence of Ted Cruz (although he was secretly born in Canada, i guess he developed his God Forsaken ideology down here. He's a CUBAN-CANADIAN.) Also, his original nickname was Felito. I'm not sure, but i THINK that's a word that's used in ritual magick to summon lesser demons like Imps (which Cruz is-at least HALF imp anyway.)

He's another fake Texan like W and GHW.

At some point it has to cross your mind that this dude graduated cum laude from princeton and magna cum laude from harvard with a DOCTORATE in law. So how..but..he...the...siiiiiiiigh.

allegro

12-04-2015, 06:21 PM

At some point it has to cross your mind that this dude graduated cum laude from princeton and magna cum laude from harvard with a DOCTORATE in law. So how..but..he...the...siiiiiiiigh.

Every lawyer gets a Juris Doctorate. That's how they become lawyers. All lawyers have a J.D.

Obama graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard with a J.D.

Summa trumps Magna.

(I graduated Magna Cum Laude but I was carrying a double major and a minor so that's my excuse, lol.)

I only dislike Cruz because of his Tea Party shit and the religious nut job shit. But he's a brilliant legal mind. And I saw an interview with him, recently, where he went into this portion of the musical "Oliver!" from high school that was priceless. He's a total awesome Drama Nerd.

elevenism

12-04-2015, 06:29 PM

Every lawyer gets a Juris Doctorate. That's how they become lawyers. All lawyers have a J.D.

Obama graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard with a J.D.

Summa trumps Magna.

(I graduated Magna Cum Laude but I was carrying a double major and a minor so that's my excuse, lol.)

But still. Harvard? Princeton? How can he be such a moron?!?!?!?!

allegro

12-04-2015, 06:33 PM

You uhhhh ever been to a gun friendly state? People who conceal carry do it constantly. It's no different than having their car keys on them. Fuck, I know people who carry inside of multi-football-field-sized data centers that rarely have more than a handful of people inside at a time.

This seems super silly to people who don't carry, but you need to realize the culture of the people who are making these statements.
Colorado was during that theater shooting but nobody was expecting an armed Joker to show up during Batman in the dark. And County employees generally are not allowed to be armed during office functions.

allegro

12-04-2015, 06:36 PM

If you are saying that the Internet makes it easier for people to break the existing laws, that's not a loophole.
It's a loophole so long as those sites are allowed to exist and Illinois can't shut it down. The Feds need to shut it down. Yes, these internet private sales disregard Illinois FOID requirements, etc. The Buyers are paying WAY more than what the gun is worth because they can't buy the gun legally in Illinois. The other method is they drive to Gary, Indiana and use only an Illinois driver's license to buy a gun because Indiana doesn't do Illinois background checks or have reciprocity.

So if a wife has a protective order against her husband, he can't use his FOID in IL to buy a gun or ammo to shoot and kill her, but he can drive 30 minutes to Gary ...

allegro

12-04-2015, 06:39 PM

But still. Harvard? Princeton? How can he be such a moron?!?!?!?!

He's not. He's just religious (or, pretending to be) with some pretty right-wing ideas that don't match with yours. Also, it's election season. People will sell their Grandma (or look dumber) to grab that Golden Ring.

elevenism

12-04-2015, 06:46 PM

He's not. He's just religious (or, pretending to be) with some pretty right-wing ideas that don't match with yours. Also, it's election season. People will sell their Grandma (or look dumber) to grab that Golden Ring.
Yeeeeeeeeaaah i GUESS you're right.

I think the next book i'm gonna order is his book.
But i still don't think he's human ;)

allegro

12-04-2015, 06:52 PM

Yeeeeeeeeaaah i GUESS you're right.

I think the next book i'm gonna order is his book.
But i still don't think he's human ;)
No politician is ...

Exocet

12-04-2015, 08:52 PM

We are a very violent country, .

I dont understand what this means...how are you special and different...every country has a violent past.
your not a violent country no one sees you as that. Is it some some sort of macho posturing,
Iraq is a violent country.
Im from England the Vikings and Saxons raped and massacred 90 percent of the celtic population in a bloodbath.
We were attacked by the Nazis with intergalactic missiles. Which killed 200 people at a time...for 6 years... we have been under attack too...many times..thousands are still alive from this bloody era...i dont get your fear
Every European country has evolved from its violent past.

Maybe becuase your a younger country its going to take longer for you to evolve.

Your still forming or something...you are no different. You dont have a different mindset...your not a different species.

Sarah K

12-04-2015, 08:59 PM

Every European country has evolved from its violent past.

That is the key point. The US hasn't evolved yet.

Dr Channard

12-04-2015, 09:06 PM

...

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 09:45 PM

It's a loophole so long as those sites are allowed to exist and Illinois can't shut it down. The Feds need to shut it down. Yes, these internet private sales disregard Illinois FOID requirements, etc.
So, that's just plain illegal being that IL requires FOID checks for private transactions (assuming the seller is in IL, if they aren't im not sure what the law says but that gets into cross-state trafficking). Absolutely no loophole exists there. IL is responsible for enforcing their own law then. You can't just shut down a website because some people use it for communication that results in illegal activity. Plus, it's the internet. Trying to censor something only makes it spread.

I can go on craigslist and find a seller who provides a sewage cleaning chemical that is illegal to own, use, or buy in California. Should we shut down craigslist because of that? Is craigslist even slightly legally responsible for the transaction? Should California have any control over shutting down this website? My answer to all is "no."

Things could be a bit different if we were talking about a Federal law being broken or maaaaybe if the company/servers were hosted in IL.

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 10:01 PM

I look forward to allegro's response, but I'm bored so ill take a stab at it:

it’s the simple fact the gun laws clearly aren’t working,

based on what? How are you determining this? What exactly is it you want stopped? (rampage shootings, suicides, crime induced homicides, police, etc)

We are a people up to our necks in laws, but apparently bankrupt when it comes to principles. The laws mean nothing if they do nothing to uphold the principles they’re founded on.
Maybe it's because many of the laws are inherently unenforceable? I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind though.

The gun control laws aren’t protecting anyone.
agree, for the most part!

I’m not safe in my own neighborhood, my own bed at night, and that’s not paranoia, it’s real.
err... yeah that is paranoia, depending on what exactly it is you fear killing you in your neighborhood/bed. Your chance of being involved in a mass shooting is ridiculously small. There are so many other things that are way more likely to kill you. You are really bad at risk analysis if you don't see that, but this is a common human trait.

Dr Channard

12-04-2015, 11:11 PM

...

DigitalChaos

12-04-2015, 11:21 PM

Idiots with guns, which my city has its fair share of, and I’ve had more run-ins with than I’d personally care to. They are around here, where I live, up to no good, it’s real.

Your other replies were completely unhelpful and don't indicate any real interest in going further. Your "intent vs letter of law" separation is way too vague to really elaborate, and you have a lot of assumptions about what gun control's intent actually is (it goes way beyond preserving life). It's all way too nonspecific to respond to without making huge assumptions. So I'll just touch your last line.

What you are describing sounds a lot like crime related gun issues. That really has nothing to do with shootings like this thread is about. But crime related gun issues are not fixed by gun control. allegro has already mentioned her proximity to chicago and their issues with crime related gun issues. I live near Oakland with similar issues. Both have tried to solve it with gun control and have failed miserably. You fix this by fixing crime. The vast majority of which can be heavily improved through a focus on chipping away at poverty and improving education.

Dr Channard

12-04-2015, 11:50 PM

No need to sweat it, just chitchat.

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 12:43 PM

Let's take a quick look at the gun laws governing San Bernadino and how well they worked:

10rd magazine limit - they had high capacity magazines. They either modified the existing ones or found one of the many other ways of having a larger one... pretty simple considering its just a box with a spring in it.
fixed magazine requirement on AR-15 - modified the guns to use a quick change button, allowing rapid change of the magazines.
ban on full auto - modified at least one AR-15 to shoot full auto.
restriction on straw purchases - it seems a friend purchased 2 of the guns. no idea why as they clearly were able to buy other guns without issue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3348328/The-baby-faced-nerd-bought-assault-style-weapons-childhood-best-friend-Syed-Farook-checked-mental-hospital-hours-office-party-massacre.html

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 12:44 PM

It's weird that nobody is talking about all those pipe bombs. Who were they intended for? Those are pretty illegal and hurt a whole lot of people when they are used.

allegro

12-07-2015, 12:45 PM

ban on full auto - modified at least one AR-15 to shoot full auto.
this is true although reports are saying that this mod didn't function.

they had a pipe bomb factory in the townhouse, I guess they bought all the supplies for them on the internet.

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 01:04 PM

this is true although reports are saying that this mod didn't function.

That's what I get for taking a story at face value! It's not too hard to modify an AR-15 to shoot full auto, but it's certainly harder than bypassing the 10rd limit or fixed magazine requirement. They also make various things that simulate full auto (bump firing, usually... hell even a piece of string will do).

I did some digging and I think this full auto bit may be due to the media having no idea what a "bullet button" is and saying that it allows the gun to do full auto. That's quite amusing, if so. Bullet buttons are usually what CA AR-15's have to satisfy the fixed magazine requirement. They make removing a magazine slow as fuck because you have to use a tool (in most cases, you jam a bullet in a hole, hence the name). A visual inspection of the rifles they confiscated doesn't seem to show anything that would indicated full auto. They both do have a bullet button on them though... so they'd be modified for the ease of magazine removal.

It is interesting that they wanted to make the guns look legal. I'm guessing they were at the gun range a bunch with those guns.

they had a pipe bomb factory in the townhouse, I guess they bought all the supplies for them on the internet.

The hell? You'd think you would just go to the hardware store and pay for your gas piping with cash....

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 01:23 PM

Wonderful... It looks like they were using the same bombs that the Boston Bombers made. The source of which was probably from the "Inspire" magazine that Al Qaeda released in hope of instigating lone wolf attacks. All materials are available at most hardware stores. One or two of the chemicals might be a bit of a pain to get in some counties due to chemical bans related to meth production, so that might explain the internet purchase.

From a prohibitionary perspective, I see no way of preventing this at the legal level.

allegro

12-07-2015, 02:10 PM

Deepvoid

12-07-2015, 02:17 PM

When you think about it, a US citizen that is considered a potential terrorist (terror watch list) can legally purchase a firearm. Then, same person can train and familiarize himself with this gun at the shooting range or whatnot.
Once training is complete, he can legally purchase a massive amount of ammo and voilà!

allegro

12-07-2015, 03:03 PM

When you think about it, a US citizen that is considered a potential terrorist (terror watch list)
Neither of them were on a terrorist watch list (http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/04/san-bernardino-shooting-suspect-not-on-terrorist-watch-list/). There was zero evidence of them being potential terrorists, at all, not even to their own respective families. She was allowed into the country last year with no problem.

This country doesn't put people on terrorist watch lists solely because they are from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. There has to be what the U.S. considers a good reason, e.g. affiliation with terrorists (although, there are a LOT of people on the terrorist watch list who shouldn't be on it (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/12/07/why-nelson-mandela-was-on-a-terrorism-watch-list-in-2008/)).

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 03:11 PM

FBI on TV right now, they found 19 pipes in the townhouse, total. They believe both suspects were radicalized, both had been to target practice fairly recently, no evidence of suicide vests so far.

ATF on TV right now, five guns were traced; all guns purchased from FFL (Federal Firearms Licensees); Farook, the male suspect purchased three of them; Enrique Marquez, former neighbor, purchased two and sold them to Farook a few years ago.

ah, so private sale. I don't recall when the law went live, but CA requires that all private sales get passed through a FFL. That had to have been before they did the transfer though... so that would make it illegal. Then again, maybe they did go through the FFL and they don't know yet. For all this record keeping that the state has, they sure have a slow time figuring out simple lineage of guns that followed the intended path.

That's a good way to raise suspicion and get reported to the FBI. They probably have cameras at the hardware store. They'd probably have to hit up the hardware stores a shitload of times.

My guess is that these people just weren't of very high intelligence, as if blowing yourself up for a religion wasn't enough of an indicator. Same goes for the Paris attacks where the attackers made it incredibly easy for the govt to intercept their communications.

I'd always assumed they had a lot more visibility into purchases made online and/or with credit cards. If they are looking at cameras, it's already too late to hide your actions. That means the feds are actively investigating you. They had no issue investigating his internet purchases the same way.

It would take a handful of purchases if you were concerned. Pick up some gas pipe fittings for that DIY table project at Home Depot. Maybe pick up your pool chemicals while you are there a week later. Swing by walmart for your manicuring supplies and first aid products. etc. It tends to be the huge purchases that throw flags because that's how much meth labs need. I haven't read the tech, but i'm fairly sure you don't need much.

allegro

12-07-2015, 03:13 PM

That had to have been before they did the transfer though... so that would make it illegal.
Um, yeah, that's what the FBI said, pretty much.

I'd always assumed they had a lot more visibility into purchases made online and/or with credit cards. If they are looking at cameras, it's already too late to hide your actions. That means the feds are actively investigating you. They had no issue investigating his internet purchases the same way.
There are underground sources through the same sources where you are being "radicalized." For instance, a web site advertised as a pool supply place.

The government was too stupid to intercept them being radicalized, they're too stupid to intercept this stuff.

The FBI press conference I saw last week said they had a "factory" to make WAY more than the 19 bombs they found on site. There was a bag filled with the finished products, but there were enough supplies to make a lot more once they bought the pipes, pressure cookers, whatever containers they intended to store them. I don't know if they were making the "nail bombs" that the Boston bombers made, though.

Deepvoid

12-07-2015, 03:22 PM

Neither of them were on a terrorist watch list (http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/04/san-bernardino-shooting-suspect-not-on-terrorist-watch-list/). There was zero evidence of them being potential terrorists, at all, not even to their own respective families. She was allowed into the country last year with no problem.

This country doesn't put people on terrorist watch lists solely because they are from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. There has to be what the U.S. considers a good reason, e.g. affiliation with terrorists (although, there are a LOT of people on the terrorist watch list who shouldn't be on it (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/12/07/why-nelson-mandela-was-on-a-terrorism-watch-list-in-2008/)).

I know they weren't on the terrorist watch list.
My point is that even if you're on it, it wouldn't be an obstacle to prepare an attack like the one that happened in San Bernardino.

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 03:45 PM

Um, yeah, that's what the FBI said, pretty much.

so weird. They didn't seem to have a need for illegal gun transactions. If I had to guess, they didn't intend to break the law. They followed Fed law but broke state law.

There are underground sources through the same sources where you are being "radicalized." For instance, a web site advertised as a pool supply place.

The government was too stupid to intercept them being radicalized, they're too stupid to intercept this stuff.

Sadly, that's true. The govt can't handle detecting sub-average intelligence terrorists... again. Yet another reason that it's silly to grant them more access to more data. They can't even handle the info they already have access to.

The FBI press conference I saw last week said they had a "factory" to make WAY more than the 19 bombs they found on site. There was a bag filled with the finished products, but there were enough supplies to make a lot more once they bought the pipes, pressure cookers, whatever containers they intended to store them. I don't know if they were making the "nail bombs" that the Boston bombers made, though.

This seems to be where a huge part of the story is missing. What were those bombs for? It's clear they had been planning this for a while. Perhaps this attack was a "fuck the rest of the plan, we are doing it now" situation where it will be hard to find their original plan. Maybe it was all supposed to go off with the remote trigger that failed on one of the bombs. Maybe they were supplying others.

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 03:54 PM

I know they weren't on the terrorist watch list.
My point is that even if you're on it, it wouldn't be an obstacle to prepare an attack like the one that happened in San Bernardino.
so how do you stop it then?

allegro

12-07-2015, 05:21 PM

I know they weren't on the terrorist watch list.
My point is that even if you're on it, it wouldn't be an obstacle to prepare an attack like the one that happened in San Bernardino.

Ah, I see what you're saying. And, it's true, proposed legislation to deny gun licenses to people on the "do not fly" list, on a Federal level, was shot down by the GOP (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/06/politics/2016-election-guns-no-fly-list/) (no pun intended) but Trump would consider it (who cares?).

DigitalChaos

12-07-2015, 05:33 PM

Ah, I see what you're saying. And, it's true, proposed legislation to deny gun licenses to people on the "do not fly" list, on a Federal level, was shot down by the GOP (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/06/politics/2016-election-guns-no-fly-list/) (no pun intended) but Trump would consider it (who cares?).
...which was the right thing to do... right?

We aren't going to get back on the McCarthyism bandwagon by denying rights to people based on a list 1million strong that has no due process... right? Did we forget when it was evil when the GOP used similar smaller terrorist lists to kill and detain people with no due process? I found it pretty screwed up to see the Dems supporting that. Glenn Greenwald was raging about it this week.

allegro

12-07-2015, 05:45 PM

...which was the right thing to do... right?

We aren't going to get back on the McCarthyism bandwagon by denying rights to people based on a list 1million strong that has no due process... right? Did we forget when it was evil when the GOP used similar smaller terrorist lists to kill and detain people with no due process? I found it pretty screwed up to see the Dems supporting that. Glenn Greenwald was raging about it this week.

Detaining people and denying people a gun license who are associated with terrorists are two different things. In the very least, people who are not American citizens shouldn't get gun licenses. But at some point, we either have unlimited freedom or we have unlimited terrorism. It's a 21st century problem. Freedom often comes with a price. I think this might end up causing a ban on assault weapons, in the very least. The SCOTUS just upheld an assault weapons ban in my city.

Here's the thing, though: I'm old enough to remember the 60s and 70s when terrorists didn't use guns; terrorists' weapon of choice was bombs. Lots and lots of bombs. And god save all of us when that happens.

Khrz

12-07-2015, 08:08 PM

Here's the thing, though: I'm old enough to remember the 60s and 70s when terrorists didn't use guns; terrorists' weapon of choice was bombs. Lots and lots of bombs. And god save all of us when that happens.

It carried on even later than that... If you're wondering, when visiting France, why every public garbage can either has a very narrow opening or is reduced to a plastic bag held by a metal circle, it's because of that. Terrorists used to hide rigged gas canisters covered in nails, screws and various shrapnel in those, detonating them whenever convenient. And that was in 1995.

Jinsai

12-07-2015, 09:32 PM

Here's the thing, though: I'm old enough to remember the 60s and 70s when terrorists didn't use guns; terrorists' weapon of choice was bombs. Lots and lots of bombs. And god save all of us when that happens.

Yeah... I still don't get why many of these attacks are being carried out in such an "ineffective" method, and that does seem to be the elephant in the room. Though I do think a lot of people are afraid to point that obvious fact out... whether because they're afraid that it will land them on some sort of watch-list, or give the bad guys the idea (which is ludicrous).

Dr Channard

12-07-2015, 09:53 PM

...

allegro

12-07-2015, 09:56 PM

Jinsai

12-07-2015, 11:06 PM

especially because, I would just assume that bombs are generally... bigger now

allegro

12-08-2015, 12:25 AM

especially because, I would just assume that bombs are generally... bigger now

Not really. Explosives haven't advanced all THAT much, really. It's all dependent on advance planning, timing, size of delivery, etc. The Internet has certainly made access to materials and sympathetic suppliers a lot easier.

The Oklahoma City Bombing was big because of the method of delivery (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing): a delivery truck packed FULL of explosives.

Khrz

12-08-2015, 05:17 AM

especially because, I would just assume that bombs are generally... bigger now

It really depends on the kind of damage you want to do. in 1995 Paris, the point wasn't so much to take out a lot of people at once, it was about having bombs pop up randomly and kill and maim a dozen people each time.

Terrorism isn't so much about killing a lot of people, it's about breaking them and their government. Of course, the bigger the death toll the bigger the psychological impact, but harassing with smaller attacks on the long run works wonders too.

DigitalChaos

12-08-2015, 12:20 PM

Bombs are definitely a bit easier today.
chemistry - it's a bit harder to obtain some of the explosives, but there are also more novel options. It's still extremely trivial. Most of you have at least half of the substances used in the SB shooting at your house.
enclosures - no change
detonation - This is where we have made large advancements. Wireless detonation used to be impossible or very expensive. Now people are using childrens toys and cheap cell phones.
They still blow up the same and have the same impact though.

The ease of production and the large impact is what makes them scary. I've frequently argued that guns are trending in this direction, and we started to see some of that in this shooting with their weapons modifications, but they probably won't be as easy as bombs for another 5-10 years minimum.

DigitalChaos

12-08-2015, 01:13 PM

Detaining people and denying people a gun license who are associated with terrorists are two different things. In the very least, people who are not American citizens shouldn't get gun licenses. But at some point, we either have unlimited freedom or we have unlimited terrorism. It's a 21st century problem. Freedom often comes with a price. I think this might end up causing a ban on assault weapons, in the very least. The SCOTUS just upheld an assault weapons ban in my city.

Here's the thing, though: I'm old enough to remember the 60s and 70s when terrorists didn't use guns; terrorists' weapon of choice was bombs. Lots and lots of bombs. And god save all of us when that happens.

Agree on bombs. Agree on freedom coming at a price. But am I actually seeing you justify a blatantly unconstitutional approach here? This is the kind of stuff Trump has been saying. Many people disagree with the 2nd amendment, but it's currently in the Constitution right next to the freedom of speech, privacy, etc. You can't use a complete lack of due process to infringe on those rights. There are plenty of American citizens on this list. It's a list of SUSPECTS based on various things that are secret to the public. Remember when Ted Kennedy was on the much smaller list (no fly list)that is a subset of the terror suspect list? This kind of thing is extremely wrong as is, but also very ripe for further abuse.

DigitalChaos

12-08-2015, 01:25 PM

for the survival and evolution of our civilization.

holy crap man, you go off the deep end on this fear shit. We could have a nuclear war and humanity will still survive. People having guns is not going to end humanity or cease the advancement of it. The mythical "wild west" didn't result in a stalling point or the end of america. Maybe guns aren't actually as much of a problem as you currently believe...

DigitalChaos

12-08-2015, 02:05 PM

Yeah... I still don't get why many of these attacks are being carried out in such an "ineffective" method, and that does seem to be the elephant in the room. Though I do think a lot of people are afraid to point that obvious fact out... whether because they're afraid that it will land them on some sort of watch-list, or give the bad guys the idea (which is ludicrous).

Well, the biggest deadliest attacks in the U.S. involved bombs (9-11 used airplanes as giant flying bombs, OK City, Boston), and nobody saw any of those coming. In the 60s and 70s in the U.S., the bombing was mostly done by leftists like The Weather Underground and the FBI never seemed to be able to keep up with them. We'd just better hope and pray it doesn't become the method of choice in this country, like it was in Europe for so so long. But we can't live in fear, either. We could get hit by a tornado, too.

So, is the correct response to terrorist bombs "hope and pray" with a mix of it being statistically unlikely? The bomb discussion really is worth having, for many of the reasons Jinsai mentioned. It also has the benefit of removing a lot of the preexisting rhetoric that typically shuts down decent conversation. I'm already really impressed with all the commentary in this thread on the topic.

allegro

12-08-2015, 06:51 PM

Agree on bombs. Agree on freedom coming at a price. But am I actually seeing you justify a blatantly unconstitutional approach here?
I'm saying no gun license unless you're an American citizen, take down all internet gun trade sites (private sales should be through licensed dealers, only) and ban "assault" weapons and high-capacity magazines. All of that is Constitutional. Ask the SCOTUS. I'll wait here.

DigitalChaos

12-08-2015, 06:53 PM

I'm saying no gun license unless you're an American citizen, take down all internet gun trade sites (private sales should be through licensed dealers, only) and ban "assault" weapons and high-capacity magazines. All of that is Constitutional. Ask the SCOTUS. I'll wait here.
ok. that's COMPLETELY different than what was being voted on: using a terror watchlist to deny gun sales. no need to debate that further then. BACK TO BOMBS

allegro

12-08-2015, 06:53 PM

So, is the correct response to terrorist bombs "hope and pray" with a mix of it being statistically unlikely? The bomb discussion really is worth having, for many of the reasons Jinsai mentioned. It also has the benefit of removing a lot of the preexisting rhetoric that typically shuts down decent conversation. I'm already really impressed with all the commentary in this thread on the topic.

There is NOTHING we can do to prevent bombs. Zero, zip, nada.

We can TRY but we have always been several steps behind the bombers. Wireless? The bomb(s) on that Russian plane used altimeter triggers. The Boston bombers used timers in backpacks and nobody noticed them. The Sept. 11 guys used jumbo jets filled with jet fuel. Not too complicated stuff. The element of surprise being the biggest part.

DigitalChaos

12-08-2015, 07:13 PM

There is NOTHING we can do to prevent bombs. Zero, zip, nada.

We can TRY but we have always been several steps behind the bombers. Wireless? The bomb(s) on that Russian plane used altimeter triggers. The Boston bombers used timers in backpacks and nobody noticed them. The Sept. 11 guys used jumbo jets filled with jet fuel. Not too complicated stuff. The element of surprise being the biggest part.

I think there are things, but we have to break away from trying to control access to the tool and we have to stop focusing on the act of terrorism. It's similar to the approach required for dealing with domestic gun issues. We have to move up the chain and look at what is creating terrorists.

Education can help in some aspects. "guns kill terrorists. education kills terrorism." - Malala Yousafzai
Stopping the US's invasive war policy that creates entities like ISIS would absolutely help.
Impacting terrorism funding sources such as oil and drugs by removing their market (get off oil, legalize drugs). That would greatly help.

That's just a few things, and I strongly believe in all of them. Granted, everyone will look at that list and go "nope, no fucking way anything like that will happen with the US involved" ... especially with all the candidates who are considered "viable" right now. So, there's that.

allegro

12-08-2015, 11:11 PM

I think there are things, but we have to break away from trying to control access to the tool and we have to stop focusing on the act of terrorism. It's similar to the approach required for dealing with domestic gun issues. We have to move up the chain and look at what is creating terrorists.

Education can help in some aspects. "guns kill terrorists. education kills terrorism." - Malala Yousafzai
Stopping the US's invasive war policy that creates entities like ISIS would absolutely help.
Impacting terrorism funding sources such as oil and drugs by removing their market (get off oil, legalize drugs). That would greatly help.

That's just a few things, and I strongly believe in all of them. Granted, everyone will look at that list and go "nope, no fucking way anything like that will happen with the US involved" ... especially with all the candidates who are considered "viable" right now. So, there's that.
You're only looking at Middle Eastern terrorism. Tim McVeigh was pissed at the government, and he formed a militia and bombed a Federal building even though he knew there was a daycare center in there. The Weather Underground was pissed at the government (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Weatherman_actions) and cops and planted bombs accordingly. That's domestic terrorism. The IRA wasn't Middle Eastern, either (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troub les_and_peace_process). Organizations that bomb do so to get attention, because they feel powerless, voiceless. You can't stop people from being angry, because you will never have a perfect government, or justice, or the utopic society that would prevent this. And the likelihood of a free Palestine in our or future lifetimes does not seem likely. There are these battles that are ANCIENT that may never be solved.

Khrz

12-08-2015, 11:48 PM

And the likelihood of a free Palestine in our or future lifetimes does not seem likely. There are these battles that are ANCIENT that may never be solved.

I tend to share my father's opinion that eventually, Palestine will just disappear, one way or the other. That's way more likely than the opposite (a free Palestine). There's just too many country backing Israel up, or refusing to openly and firmly oppose their politics and actions.

And I'm not so certain that education kills terrorism. The political disengagement is just abysmal nowadays. Our parents (I'm 40) would discuss and debate and argue about politics and social issues. Most people I see have no political conscience whatsoever. They just can't believe in anything, and even have a hard time differentiating their left and their right wing. Can't blame them, honestly.
But if by "Education" you mean political awareness and engagement rather than violent action to induce change, I don't see it. Most people are just lost and feel utterly powerless and meaningless on that regard. Which is a perfect ground for terrorism.

Dr Channard

12-09-2015, 12:02 AM

...

Khrz

12-09-2015, 07:15 AM

“Some people are just fucked up. And fucked up people if given the chance will do some fucked up things. So why don’t we make it as impossible as we can for them to get their hands on the “tools” of fucking things up.” - Me

Those are mostly people who merely interpret the world differently than you do. What you tolerate, they don't. What you forgive, they can't. What revolts you, they accept or embrace.
Terrorism isn't the prerogative of fucked up people, mass murder is (granted, there's kind of an overlap there). Terrorism is driven by an ideal and an ideology. That said ideal appears phony to you is completely irrelevant. They're not fucked up, they don't live in the same world as you, they don't see the world the way you do.
There are highly educated, highly cultured and mentally sound people feeding such ideologies. It's too easy to just disregard terrorists as "fucked up". Most of them aren't, they are capable of intelligent discourse and arguments, they propose an alternative vision and explanation for how the world came to be the way it is, and how to change that. Blowing people up isn't an endgame.

And when it comes to terrorism, good luck barring them from having access to potentially destructive material. You can make a bomb with gas cylinders, with fertilizers, with cleaning products... You can sabotage railway lines, you can rig cars and blow them up whenever... Hell, I probably don't have to remind anyone that 9/11 didn't require any explosives...

I have no solution to this. DigitalChaos reflections, as much as I respect their idealism, are completely unrealistic to me. Looking at what makes a terrorist, looking at what makes a murderer... Yeah, I get it, I do, in a perfect world we an afford the resources, the honesty and intelligence to take a long hard look at our society's failings and our own, and fix them all. That won't happen, though. Ever. We should, but we won't. So then what ? I have no fucking idea.

I just read a french author (that I had never heard of before) who described the 11/13 attacks as "tragically hilarious", and the act of entering a rock concert to shoot people up as "brilliant". He's not evil. He's just a wanker. He describes the scene as if it were some sort of art performance, a counter-art retort of sorts. He's no mastermind, he has just become extremely good at choking the chicken. He's still a cog in all this, he's quoted, relayed, and his provocation becomes an argument.
My point is, you can't fix society, not really. It's way too complex, you don't just have a look under the hood to see what makes that funny noise. You'll always be someone else's insufferable evil, there will always be someone to think you should just not be. And we can't afford (on so many levels) to run around and try to "disarm" every movement and group we find a bit too extreme.

Dr Channard

12-09-2015, 10:20 AM

...

Khrz

12-09-2015, 10:47 AM

I understand that smaller IEDs are a trickier issue. But the proliferation of guns and ease of access to them, in this country at least, feels more like complacency and neglect when this kind of stuff goes down.

Believing that we can control and dictate policy to the Middle East may be folly. Believing we can successfully govern and make working policies for our own lands shouldn’t seem quite as preposterous. It seems like other countries out there do have their shit much more together. Why don’t we, here?

On that first paragraph I would agree with you, but well... I was born in a country where guns just aren't part of the culture, at all, it's not even part of our history. When we kicked the throne, we had to storm the prisons to get arms that weren't farming equipment. When it comes to the USA, I tend to think that controlling guns has become as tricky as, say, controlling the sales of fertilizers, gas cylinders... See what I mean ?
They seem to be as integral to the american culture as cars are. And just as easy to ban, or even control. But well, I can't say that I know much about this, obviously.

On that last paragraph I don't quite follow you. Comparing France to Sweden is already silly most of the time, you can't compare a federation of 50 states to nations the size of Texas. You can't compare a 300 years old country built on colonization to countries that have more than a thousand years of history, of wars, defeats and victories on their own soil. That's like saying "Podunk, Ireland, pop. 350 has clean streets and pleasant neighborhoods, why can't Chicago be the same ?" You can't manage the USA like you manage Luxembourg or Belgium.
And when it comes to intelligence, I suspect that our governments track a lot of people at once, follow a lot of threads, and hear a lot of warnings. Each time it's a bet : should they keep on listening and gather more intel, or should they intervene and destroy that same source of intel ? How many times are terrorist plans being relayed and heard of, from various sources ? For one successful attack, how many have been stopped, how many were just bullshit leads ?
I'm sure there is a degree of incompetence, bad bets and wrong turns. I'm also pretty sure that we have no idea of the amount of information that has to be examined and sorted, and how hard it is to define a threat priority. Especially when you're something as big and symbolic as the USA, the embodiment of the west.

allegro

12-09-2015, 11:21 AM

The government was well aware that the Trade Center complex and the Pentagon were likely targets of terrorist attacks (domestic or otherwise).
Actually, not to sidetrack this too much, but from the documentaries I've seen on this issue, including interviews with Air Traffic Controllers who worked that airspace that day, it appears that the White House was the actual target, not the Pentagon. But what the terrorists didn't count on was that, from certain altitudes, the White House is often obscured by a lot of trees, and it appears that the terrorists on the plane simply "missed" their target on the initial run but then spotted easily-visible Pentagon, the World's biggest office building. There is no evidence that the Government was "well aware" that a plane could or would fly into a building and be used as a WMD. My husband has been an Air Traffic Controller for 35 years working radar at the Chicago Center, including the morning of September 11th and, I assure you, he and his coworkers were shocked, as were all of the Military personnel, that it happened. Up until that point in history, hijacked planes meant that the hijackers landed the plane somewhere, held hostages for a while, maybe threw a few bodies out onto the tarmac, made a bunch of demands, including maybe a helicopter and a bunch of cash, and that's it. In the history of the world, nobody has used jumbo jets as giant bombs to fly into skyscrapers. Hindsight is 20/20. I highly recommend this special (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U26dnUGOzgk). Those ATCs accomplished something that had never been done, before.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Control_of_Air_Traffic_and_Air_Navigation _Aids)

You seriously think that the "theater of security" that the TSA puts on at airports provides any kind of real safety? Let me tell you a little story: For about a year, my husband worked on the FAA ERAM project (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/eram/) in Washington D.C. and we had an apartment in D.C. and he flew back-and-forth between D.C. and Chicago a few weekends per month, via Reagan National Airport. This was in around 2003-2004. During that time, I drove home to Detroit to visit my family at least once per month. One time, my mom, unbeknownst to me, packed a GINSU KNIFE (as seen on TV) in my carry-on to cut some fruit she packed for my road trip. My husband, meanwhile, BORROWED MY CARRY-ON on his way back to D.C., and that carry-on went through security and TSA at Reagan National Airport with a 3" GINSU KNIFE in the carry-on AT LEAST 3 TIMES until we finally found it in the outside pocket and freaked out. There's your "security" for you. Meanwhile, a bomb could easily be packed in luggage and checked. Compare our TSA Barney Fife method with that of Israel's (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-wagner/what-israeli-airport-secu_b_4978149.html). Of course, we don't want to be bothered with delays, long lines, profiling, too many questions. We're already pissed if we have to take out our laptops. And Barney Fife wants a mom to drink her own breast milk and a 90-year-old grandma to remove her own colostomy bag, and Barney's "training" was 2 days in a conference room with PowerPoint slides.

Timothy McVeigh STOLE MOST OF THE MATERIALS he used for the Oklahoma City bombing. How could that be "preventable?" <--- rhetorical question. Seriously, I've been in law for over 27 years, and this discussion is like, "there are entirely too many murders and robberies in the country, certainly there must be a way to prevent them, we have laws against them that aren't being enforced against these people committing murders and robberies, if we educate these murderers and robbers, or we have better intelligence, we can prevent them."

Laws are there to curtail and discourage, but mostly to use to convict and enforce, after the fact. Laws are also slow to respond. Do you know how long it took to force auto makers to finally put backup cameras on cars, which are relatively cheap, even though an average of FIFTY kids are backed over by a vehicle PER WEEK (two die) due to "blind zones" behind cars (http://www.kidsandcars.org/back-overs.html)? An easy and cheap fix, but no laws are quick and easy. Because the auto industry didn't want to bother. Now, it's finally happening (http://www.cnet.com/news/u-s-requiring-back-up-cameras-in-cars-by-2018/) and people love those damned backup cameras (including me and my husband, and we don't even HAVE any kids)!

Jinsai

12-09-2015, 12:01 PM

the sad truth is that it can't be prevented completely, but it can be prevented some of the time... through invasive spying. At that point, you have to ask if it's worth it, and then you have to wonder if your opinion on whether or not it's worth it matters, because they're going to spy on us anyway.

I forgot what the program was called, but weren't they found to be monitoring people's ebay and amazon searches to see if they were looking at purchasing various products which, when combined, could theoretically maybe/possibly be used to manufacture the equivalent of what was used in the Boston Marathon attack?

So yeah, that's a possible avenue where they could theoretically thwart something, but it all just makes me think about this scene...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77idJX4YCjE

(anyone know why it seems video clips I post aren't auto-embedding?)

DigitalChaos

12-09-2015, 12:32 PM

You're only looking at Middle Eastern terrorism.
True. I was definitely focusing on any sort of organized terror that has funding. Lone wolf type stuff would also take a hit if some of their "inspiration" and general support from the organized groups vanished too, but it won't handle the ones that bubble up on their own. Same with the weather underground style groups.

I have no solution to this. @DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) reflections, as much as I respect their idealism, are completely unrealistic to me. Looking at what makes a terrorist, looking at what makes a murderer... Yeah, I get it, I do, in a perfect world we an afford the resources, the honesty and intelligence to take a long hard look at our society's failings and our own, and fix them all. That won't happen, though. Ever. We should, but we won't. So then what ? I have no fucking idea.

oh i totally agree. i'm just throwing it in for conversation. Would those things help? yup. Are they attainable in our current global political climate? lol no. Is there anything else that can have as much of an impact? not that I can see. So, the logical conclusion is obvious.

I have the exact same perspective on the topic of rampage killing. There are some solutions up-stream of the issue, but not attainable with our domestic political climate.

the sad truth is that it can't be prevented completely, but it can be prevented some of the time... through invasive spying.

Except there is no support for that. In the 15 years the US has *officially* been doing extremely invasive spying, it has not stopped an attack. They have admitted this directly. We are currently in the "golden age" of spying-- it's not going to get any easier to do. Yet, they have accomplished nothing in the way of preventing an attack. We've already seen many of these attacks where our surveillance collected tons of info before it happened, but we didn't stop them.

But yes, it is something that people should debate if it's worth it. Abandoning an open society because of a fear for terrorism is how terrorism wins. And we trade that for... what gain?

allegro

12-09-2015, 12:45 PM

True. I was definitely focusing on any sort of organized terror that has funding. Lone wolf type stuff would also take a hit if some of their "inspiration" and general support from the organized groups vanished too, but it won't handle the ones that bubble up on their own. Same with the weather underground style groups.
According to Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh):

McVeigh, a Persian Gulf War veteran, sought revenge against the federal government for its handling of the Waco Siege, which ended in the deaths of 76 people exactly two years before the bombing, as well as for the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992. McVeigh hoped to inspire a revolt against what he considered to be a tyrannical federal government.

Seriously, how do we "prevent" that? People have been pissed at the federal government since its inception, and I don't think the federal government is going to stop doing things that will make people stop being pissed off at the federal government, and if you think that will happen, I think you might also see a few unicorns and some leprechauns and rainbows.

How do you differentiate between what Mcveigh did and this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_the_Romanov_family)? Or this? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille) Really, same motives.

The People have been pissed at their respective governments or rulers since the beginning of same. Go back to Roman times, where it was even worse. See this (http://www.historynet.com/terrorism-in-the-ancient-roman-world.htm).

Jinsai

12-09-2015, 01:03 PM

But yes, it is something that people should debate if it's worth it. Abandoning an open society because of a fear for terrorism is how terrorism wins. And we trade that for... what gain?

The appeasement of people who are terrified. There's a lot of people out there who honestly feel better if the government is spying on the people. They're also the sort of people who will roll their eyes and call you paranoid if you complain about it, or they'll say some terrifying orwellian shit like "if you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide."

The truth is that I think these people don't really understand (or believe) what Snowden was saying is actually happening, or they consider his whistleblowing to be a form of treason. They'll pat themselves on the back and say "but I've done nothing wrong, well, except piracy, but everyone does that!" and mistake their social networking and general internet communique to be some real form of anonymity. They forget that for every thousand cute kitten videos and inspirational quotes they share, there's a couple dildos in their luggage.

The other fallout from this is that the actual understanding of how invaded our lives are is truly enough to drive you nuts. You are either rational and legitimately paranoid nowadays, or you're an idiot. Or completely insane. I think a lot of people, while trying to process this stuff, really do just lose their minds.

Dr Channard

12-09-2015, 01:16 PM

...

allegro

12-09-2015, 02:13 PM

Again, wasn’t trying to get into conspiracy. Nor was I saying the government knew anything either concrete or vague about 9/11 prior to. But clearly these (along with some others, like the Whitehouse) were high profile buildings.
Yes, but once a plane is in the air the only way to stop them from hitting those high-profile buildings is to shoot down the planes. And NORAD was summoned once the ATCs finally figured out that the planes were hijacked, but it took so long to scramble the F-16s, and to get the F-16s to FIND the missing planes (there weren't on radar) and then there was no issuance of a command to shoot down the plane until after the PA flight was already downed. Those planes were en route from Boston to L.A. That's why they were so fully-loaded with jet fuel. They weren't expected to go anywhere near NYC or D.C.

The trade center had already been targeted before.
Via a bomb planted in the underground parking garage. Nobody ever suspected THIS. Mind you, MAYBE THEY SHOULD HAVE. The CIA was REPEATEDLY advised of Middle Eastern guys taking flying lessons where they only learned to take off and not land, etc. But, again, hindsight is 20/20. Nobody had ever crashed a jumbo jet into two 110-story buildings. Ever. No government, no Air Traffic Controller, no anything, had ever been trained for or experienced anything like this. The WTC was actually designed to be hit by a jet. By accident, not deliberately. And it wasn't designed to be hit by a jet that large and fully loaded with jet fuel. Anyway, again, now our commercial flights have air marshals on them and I expect that passengers will go all Postal on terrorists ("Let's Roll") if anybody tried to pull that shit again. But, now they could check a suitcase with a bomb with an altimeter trigger in the luggage (like the Russian plane). Or they could have an insider reprogram the autopilot. And now we lock the flight deck (f/k/a cockpit) door but now we also have suicide by pilot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_pilot).

Re McVeigh, this is from the OK City Bombing Wiki Page:

McVeigh and Nichols purchased or stole the materials they needed to manufacture the bomb, which they stored in rented sheds. In August 1994, McVeigh obtained nine Kinestiks from gun collector Roger E. Moore, and ignited the devices with Nichols outside Nichols' home in Herington, Kansas. On September 30, 1994, Nichols bought forty 50-pound (23 kg) bags of ammonium nitrate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate) from Mid-Kansas Coop in McPherson, Kansas; this would be enough to fertilize 4.25 acres of farmland at a rate of 160 pounds of nitrogen per acre, an amount commonly used for corn (2000 pounds of AN divided by (160 lb/acre divided by 0.34 lb N/lb AN) equals 4.25 acres). Nichols bought an additional 50-pound (23 kg) bag on October 18, 1994. McVeigh approached Fortier and asked him to assist with the bombing project, but he refused.

They robbed gun collector Roger E. Moore in his home of $60,000 worth of guns, gold, silver, and jewels, transporting the property in the victim's own van. McVeigh wrote a letter to Moore in which he claimed that the robbery had been committed by government agents. Items that were stolen from Moore were later found in Nichols' home and in a storage shed that he had rented.

In October 1994, McVeigh showed Michael Fortier and his wife, Lori, a diagram he had drawn of the bomb he wanted to build. McVeigh planned to construct a bomb containing more than 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, mixed with about 1,200 pounds (540 kg) of liquid nitromethane and 350 pounds (160 kg) of Tovex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tovex). Including the weight of the sixteen 55-U.S.-gallon drums in which the explosive mixture was to be packed, the bomb would have a combined weight of about 7,000 pounds (3,200 kg). McVeigh had originally intended to use hydrazine rocket fuel, but it proved to be too expensive. In October 1994, posing as a motorcycle racer, McVeigh obtained three 55-U.S.-gallon (46 imp gal; 210 L) drums of nitromethane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane) on the pretense that he and some fellow bikers needed the fuel for racing.

McVeigh rented a storage space, in which he stockpiled seven crates of 18-inch-long (46 cm) Tovex sausages, 80 spools of shock tube, and 500 electric blasting caps, which he and Nichols had stolen from a Martin Marietta Aggregates quarry in Marion, Kansas. He decided not to steal any of the 40,000 pounds (18,000 kg) of ANFO (ammonium nitrate/fuel oil) he found at the scene, as he did not believe it to be powerful enough (although he did obtain seventeen bags of ANFO from another source for use in the bomb). McVeigh made a prototype bomb using a plastic Gatorade jug containing ammonium nitrate prills, liquid nitromethane, a piece of Tovex sausage, and a blasting cap. The prototype was detonated in the desert to avoid detection.

Re our U.S. Government: It's incredibly inefficient and wasteful. I remember reading P.J. O'Rourke's "Parliament of Whores (http://www.amazon.com/Parliament-Whores-Humorist-Attempts-Government/dp/0802139701)" back in the day and, really, nothing has changed. Preventing people from using household items or stealing items to make bombs? Not any more entirely preventable than car crash deaths each year (32,719 in 2013) or drunk driving deaths (13,365 in 2010) etc. We can try but people are people. The "government" can't stop everything, which is what the "people" want (and think they "pay for") but it's not. The government is not our Mommy and Daddy, there to protect us and shelter us and make the bad guys go away.

DigitalChaos

12-09-2015, 03:55 PM

The appeasement of people who are terrified. There's a lot of people out there who honestly feel better if the government is spying on the people. They're also the sort of people who will roll their eyes and call you paranoid if you complain about it, or they'll say some terrifying orwellian shit like "if you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide."

The truth is that I think these people don't really understand (or believe) what Snowden was saying is actually happening, or they consider his whistleblowing to be a form of treason. They'll pat themselves on the back and say "but I've done nothing wrong, well, except piracy, but everyone does that!" and mistake their social networking and general internet communique to be some real form of anonymity. They forget that for every thousand cute kitten videos and inspirational quotes they share, there's a couple dildos in their luggage.

The other fallout from this is that the actual understanding of how invaded our lives are is truly enough to drive you nuts. You are either rational and legitimately paranoid nowadays, or you're an idiot. Or completely insane. I think a lot of people, while trying to process this stuff, really do just lose their minds.

I strongly agree with everything you just posted.
This is weird. Someone's gotta change the topic before it gets awkward. We can't just sit here *agreeing* D:

The good thing is that we have a lot of principled people fighting to keep speech and privacy.

DigitalChaos

12-09-2015, 04:03 PM

You seriously think that the "theater of security" that the TSA puts on at airports provides any kind of real safety? Let me tell you a little story:

The TSA is laughably bad. A few months back there was some news coverage about the TSA master keys leaking (by WaPo) and being 3D printed, most of which just happened to come out on 9/11... some of that was courtesy of yours truly :). What the news didn't cover was the ridiculously bad website design from the manufactures... they were showing those keys to the world. The big intended takeaway from that story was an incredibly easy to understand allegory to how bad of an idea crypto backdoors were (and not "lol I pwned your dirty socks!"). However, it was another set of examples that show just how disjointed the entire TSA operation is. Everyone is just there to collect a paycheck. Nobody gives a shit.

I could go on about a lot more, but I'm probably just going to delete this post in a day or so.

allegro

12-09-2015, 04:24 PM

However, it was another set of examples that show just how disjointed the entire TSA operation is. Everyone is just there to collect a paycheck. Nobody gives a shit.
They CLAIM they give a shit. Any time I feel like I've been treated like shit by the TSA, they tell me "DON'T YOU REMEMBER SEPTEMBER 11TH?!??!" Why, yes, I DO. I WAS ON THE PHONE WITH MY HUSBAND, THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER, WHO HAD TO SUDDENLY GET OFF THE PHONE TO HELP SAFELY BRING THOUSANDS OF PLANES OUT OF THE SKY. But what the fuck does that have to do with you putting me over HERE and my carry-on is somewhere over THERE possibly being STOLEN, just because I am wearing a fucking SWEATSHIRT, because that POWER-TRIPPING MACHO DILDO OVER THERE WITH THE I.Q. OF A TENNIS SHOE wanted to SEE MY TITS and I wouldn't comply?" Look, bottom line is, people will TAKE IT UP THE ASS just to get on a plane.

Me, I avoid flying like the PLAGUE. I'd rather take a fucking CAR to South Lake Tahoe (or, I pay extra to fly first class) and, really, NO FUCKING FLIGHT is worth Andy and Opie treating me like shit for some BULLSHIT "security." Israel has highly-trained and educated people from the military who are the equivalent of the SECRET SERVICE. Us, they're like fucking MCDONALD'S EMPLOYEES WITH A BADGE.

Even flight attendants, now, use that "it's MY plane, you either BLOW me or I'll have you ARRESTED" shit, and, frankly, that plus crammed seats, no room, and stupid people makes flying just suck way too much unless I can fly first class and they're handing me free drinks, food, and kissing my ass. (Read: No thanks, I'll take the train even though that sucks, too.)

Edit: I have met some really nice very friendly TSA people. Whether or not that made the planes safer is questionable, but I have to add that they aren't ALL abusive power-trippin' dicks.

DigitalChaos

12-10-2015, 12:01 PM

Andy and Opie treating me like shit

See, I look forward to it. I love trying to stir shit up. But I'm a white male, and sometimes even with a kid with me... it makes it hard. Either that or they can tell I like it. The power tripping TSA agents have been spares. It doesn't stop me from trying though, and my wife wants to kick my ass for it. You don't even have to wait for the security line to start. When you are checking your bags, you can actually get a legit lock on your luggage that no TSA agent can legally open unless you are there to watch-- just pack a gun (flare guns and starter guns qualify) and declare it. I've got a whole list of fun shit, none of which I recommend, but there is a special joy in knowing their own rules better than they do and flipping the tables a bit.

yes, i know. i never grew up.

allegro

12-10-2015, 12:13 PM

See, I look forward to it.
yes, i know. i never grew up.
Okay, I would actually like to fly with you sometime, LOL. Just to watch you make them eat it. I would like to carry around a rule book and point to it, "NO, HERE, LOOK, YOU CAN'T DO THAT." Actually, the time Mr. Asshole pulled that shit on me at Vegas McCarran, his supervisor was VERY apologetic. When she asked, "do you know where your carry-on is?" and I said, "no, actually, it's GONE" and she got pretty scared there for a second until we realized that my husband had taken it, and that nobody on her staff knew that he was my husband which means that pretty much anybody could have walked off with it because while they were patting me down in another area and wouldn't let me take my carry-on, nobody had let me "maintain care and control of my personal belongings" which everybody is supposed to do at the airport, so somebody could have taken my carry-on and PLANTED A BOMB IN IT or whatever. Yeah, "security" my ass. People forget that the 9-11 guys got through metal detectors with box cutters, too. "Random" screening is completely useless. It's supposed to be like "random" drug testing, to make people scared that maybe they could be tested but it does shit. Ultimately, the best screening is screening that happens before we even get to the fucking airport, and then like Israel has: military-trained "profilers" who know psychological profiling, etc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_profiling). We have adopted a few of these methods, including more scrutiny for one-way tickets or people checking in less than 30 minutes of a flight, etc.

DigitalChaos

12-10-2015, 12:45 PM

Vegas McCarran
You'll take great joy in knowing that every year McCarran get a few thousand anti-authoritarian shitheads tormenting them when the DEFCON conference is happening. The agents are usually completely worn down, yet fairly knowledgable on edge-cases, by the last few days when everyone is flying home.

The "maintain control of personal belongings" bit is another on my list. I usually shove my shit into the scanner and THEN announce that I'm opting out of a scan and require a rubdown. I feel like a vindictive cat knocking shit off a shelf. It'll set the knowledgeable ones on edge being that they have to completely focus on trying to solve the process that just broke down. For those that don't know, well, you now have a the fun of telling them that they need to go play fetch with your luggage (which is kinda hard being that the only person who can identify it is you... who hasn't been cleared to go to the other side).

A pseudo-acquaintance has taken the "psychological warfare" route with fake health risk conspiracy stuff to spread fear across the agents (http://weev.livejournal.com/403369.html). I don't have the acting chops to pull that off though.

DigitalChaos

12-10-2015, 01:14 PM

allegro

12-10-2015, 01:25 PM

And just so people reading this don't think im an insufferable asshole... Most of my TSA interactions with the agents end with them laughing and smiling. I'm only laying down bait for power-trippers and people who don't give a shit about your rights -- not crushing everyone I cross paths with. It's like fishing for the people at a bar who are always looking for a fist fight when drunk, but bringing them something unexpected.
Yeah, that's why I did a caveat, too; I've met a lot of really nice, courteous TSA people. One time, I was at Detroit Metro with my mom, on our way to Chicago O'Hare, and she had forgotten that she had a rusty long deck nail in her wallet so that she could buy some more at the hardware store; the TSA agent found it, and my mom was, like, "that's it, you caught me, I have a rusty deck nail!" and I held my breath, thinking, "MOM, SHUT THE FUCK UP, THEY CAN SEND YOU OVER TO THAT ROOM WHERE THEY'LL DO A CAVITY SEARCH AND WE'LL MISS OUR FUCKING PLANE!" But the TSA guy thought she was hilarious and he laughed and said, "now, ma'am, you do realize that I'm going to have to confiscate this nail, right?" and sent us on our way.

edit: for the record: no, it wasn't a nine inch nail

DigitalChaos

12-10-2015, 01:50 PM

rusty deck nail CAVITY SEARCH

ok ok last one (maybe) but I'm having way too much fun right now to stop. (i'll carve the last page out to a "TSA sucks dongs" thread later if there is any future posting for the SB shooting)

You reminded me of the bomb joke I made in the security line. ~4 years ago, traveling with a 1.5 year old and with a small tupperwear tub of applesauce. Agent says he needs to shove his gloved fingers into the applesauce because he cant visually inspect it for bombs. While he does this, I tell him "you know, it's not explosive... yet." Dude looks at me with this "dude.. are you ... the FUCK!?" face... To which I respond "First he has to eat it. I'll save the diaper if you don't believe me!" He cracked a small smile and let me go through... no doubt due to all the demographics involved... but hey, if you aren't going to push the boundaries you are given, whats the point?

There are actually a ton of super subjective rules surrounding the "loopholes" they grant passengers have when flying with children. One of which is that they don't define things like the cuttoff age for "small child" or things like "medically necessary."

and i'll close this post with an experience from a few days ago from a badass in your neck of the woods.
http://i.imgur.com/hqqehKW.jpg

Jinsai

12-10-2015, 03:12 PM

Me, I avoid flying like the PLAGUE. I'd rather take a fucking CAR to South Lake Tahoe

flying is my least favorite thing. I've always hated it. So many of my friends, especially the ones who are constantly on planes because that's "part of the job" think I'm insane. I'd rather stay home and dick around making music on my computer like I do when I've got a long stretch of free time rather than hop on a plane to [insert your ideal version of paradise here]. I fucking hate flying so much

allegro

12-10-2015, 03:47 PM

A pseudo-acquaintance has taken the "psychological warfare" route with fake health risk conspiracy stuff to spread fear across the agents (http://weev.livejournal.com/403369.html). I don't have the acting chops to pull that off though.
That made me immediately Google "Boston TSA cancer."

Jinsai, I used to like flying. Post-Sept 11 hurt the industry economically, then the economy crashed, airlines have merged many times or died and made steep cuts, seating is squashed, no more meals or amenities for the mere mortals, huge fees for checked bags means way too many carry-ons, less pay and bennies for airline staff means they hate their jobs, and they probably hate you, too. We go all the way to Midway to fly Southwest, now, even though O'Hare is WAY closer to us, because the staff on Southwest are so much nicer, and if we ever have to check our luggage again (ski trip), we'll use a "lugguge concierge" and SHIP it so our luggage won't get lost. I like vacations (although they're rare now with our blind dog) but we dread flying; it's just so unpleasant. After G's mandatory retirement in less than 2 years, we will be doing a lot of road trips.

Dr Channard

12-10-2015, 06:22 PM

...

allegro

12-10-2015, 06:56 PM

　
Some thought provoking points.

So hypothetically, if someone lived in a not too nice neighborhood, along with wannabe thugs, guns and drugs. And they’ve experienced several car thefts, as well as break-ins. In general, fights and even shots aren’t too uncommon in the area. They live alone and really don’t always feel safe, and moving away isn’t financially possible. And the local police kind of aren’t worth a damn. Based on what you said, would arming oneself be the only real semisolution?

Not to get off topic, but kind of curious.
That is actually the reality for people in some areas of Chicago, yes. Unless the police force improves due to this Justice Department investigation (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-opens-pattern-or-practice-investigation-chicago-police-department), and that results in greatly improving the neighborhood, many residents feel that it's up to them to protect their homes and families. It's been that way for a long time, unfortunately. In this case, it's the Municipal government that is expected to provide a basic level of safety; instead, the City has paid out over $500 million in police brutality and abuse settlements in the last decade (https://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/4/27/1380655/-Cash-strapped-Chicago-admits-it-has-paid-half-a-billion-in-police-brutality-settlements-since-2004), while the City's school district is broke and the teacher's pension hasn't been funded since 2007.