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Exocet
11-13-2015, 03:54 PM
Something really, really bad is happening in Paris right now. 18 dead so far... Shootings , Hostages, Explosions......this is some sort of major terror incident.

Archive_Reports
11-13-2015, 04:14 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203 ^^^

Reported death toll of 40 and climbing.

r_z
11-13-2015, 04:24 PM
Apparently the hostage situation is taking place where Eagles of Death Metal were scheduled to play tonight...

Horrible news, all of them.

miss k bee
11-13-2015, 04:29 PM
Apparently the hostage situation is taking place where Eagles of Death Metal were scheduled to play tonight...

Horrible news, all of them.
60 to 100 people being held at Bataclan concert hall

allegro
11-13-2015, 04:36 PM
CoS says Josh Homme is not on the European tour (http://consequenceofsound.net/2015/11/report-terrorists-take-hostages-at-eagles-of-death-metal-concert-in-paris/).

My Chicago TV coverage is saying at least 50 are now dead from explosions and shootings across Paris.

Edit: CNN is now saying at least 60 are dead (http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html).

miss k bee
11-13-2015, 04:41 PM
Now a radio station saying there has been a shooting at a shopping mall . 35 dead at the concert hall. This is terrifying shit.

botley
11-13-2015, 04:56 PM
President Hollande is declaring a national state of emergency, closing all borders to the country while police search for the suspects.

miss k bee
11-13-2015, 05:16 PM
Situation at the concert hall very serious report from a person at the venue that it is carnage.

Exocet
11-13-2015, 05:25 PM
It was two suicide attacks at the stadium. At the at the entrance gate... 3 deaths.

I cant believe France has closed it boarders with Germany. its never done that.
Something is clearly very very wrong, it cant cope with the threat the way things are.. Despite them having an amazing intelligence agency.
Im amazed at the amount of attacks.

this is horrible to watch unfold from across the channel

miss k bee
11-13-2015, 05:29 PM
Now explosions at the concert hall, the police should have stormed the place long ago, situation looks out of control.

marodi
11-13-2015, 05:59 PM
Now explosions at the concert hall, the police should have stormed the place long ago, situation looks out of control.

French radio is reporting that the Bataclan was stormed and that 2, maybe 3 terrorists were killed. It's still ongoing though.

Exocet
11-13-2015, 06:20 PM
Reports saying 100 dead inside the Bataclan theatre. Jesus Christ.

This reminds me of that Moscow theatre siege by Chechen Terrorists.

TimA
11-13-2015, 06:21 PM
Reports of around 100 people killed inside the theatre. Absolutely sickening.

orestes
11-13-2015, 06:30 PM
Reports saying 100 dead inside the Bataclan theatre. Jesus Christ.

This reminds me of that Moscow theatre siege by Chechen Terrorists.

But a much smaller venue. :(

Jinsai
11-13-2015, 06:35 PM
apparently the terrorists at the concert have been killed by police. The band/crew are reportedly safe.

edit: updated death toll is 118 confirmed dead from the concert

miss k bee
11-13-2015, 06:42 PM
About 140 killed in the attacks

Attack started at the Le Bataclan in the middle of the EODM set

http://pitchfork.com/news/62102-over-100-reportedly-killed-in-hostage-situation-at-eagles-of-death-metal-show-in-paris/

botley
11-13-2015, 08:11 PM
Horrible. Shocking. Brazen. And the inevitable response: "French Cabinet Announces Sweeping New Security Powers in Paris Region" http://www.nytimes.com/live/paris-attacks-live-updates/french-cabinet-decrees-new-security-powers-in-paris-region/

Hazekiah
11-13-2015, 08:50 PM
Some good, collected sources and updates about the outbreak of shooting within the Bataclan during the Eagles of Death Metal show...

http://m.pitchfork.com/news/62102-over-100-reportedly-killed-in-hostage-situation-at-eagles-of-death-metal-show-in-paris/

Dra508
11-13-2015, 08:54 PM
Please don't let this be the new normal. :(

Exocet
11-13-2015, 09:38 PM
A Russian plane was bombed 2 weeks ago....Something is not working...our approach to this is not working. Its been obvious for a long fucking time.
This is going to change things. I dont think anyone in Europe has any faith in Obama to take the lead.

Jinsai
11-14-2015, 12:55 AM
A Russian plane was bombed 2 weeks ago....Something is not working...our approach to this is not working. Its been obvious for a long fucking time.
This is going to change things. I dont think anyone in Europe has any faith in Obama to take the lead.

Obama cannot do anything to help at this point. We're headed into election season. It's like a shitty year-long holiday where you cannot escape partisan bullshit non-stop.

Obama's entire presidency has been attacked for every decision he's even suggested. If Obama suggests additional military action in response to this, he'll be hounded for it and it won't accomplish anything, and then he'll get blamed for it not solving everything.

Ultimately, we're impotent at this point, and you can thank the GOP for our impotency. We're sorry, this has never happened before.

Also, this attack was strategically planned because they know America is about to go into "election hibernation mode"

WorzelG
11-14-2015, 01:46 AM
A Russian plane was bombed 2 weeks ago....Something is not working...our approach to this is not working. Its been obvious for a long fucking time.
This is going to change things. I dont think anyone in Europe has any faith in Obama to take the lead.
I think the USA not responding in some ill-advised manner is probably a good thing though as it just continues the cycle. My response to terrorism has always been to not let it change your daily life or make you constantly fearful because otherwise the terrorists have won, the aim is to spread terror. I'm from Warrington and was in the town when the bomb went off, ditto the July 7th London bombings, you just have to carry on

Exocet
11-14-2015, 02:27 AM
Obama cannot do anything to help at this point. We're headed into election season. It's like a shitty year-long holiday where you cannot escape partisan bullshit non-stop.

There is this sort of post cold war hangover mind set in Europe which is lazy and demands America to take control of situations. Its like we cant be bothered. We have lost a sense of self control, Germany is too passive damaged by its past, and cautious to do anything radical...Britain is damaged by its involvement in America with the Iraq war a d has taken a back seat in world affairs recently. And France is a mess. We cant rely on Russia its too fucked up.
I like Obama but he is powerless and the response from the U.S is utterly vacant feeble and useless and has no direction. , despite a few drone strikes here and there.
something needs to change in Europe.

Patrick_Nicholas
11-14-2015, 05:16 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995541/Paris-shootings-terrorist-attack-french-victims-latest-news.html

The Islamic State has just claimed responsibility. Whether or not it was really them to begin with would be anyone's guess, but the French president was already blaming them from the start.

Isil has said in a statement, written in French and Arabic, that France will remain a top target as long as it continues its policies, and the attacks were a response to insults of Islam's prophet and airstrikes in Isil territory.The statement says that the attackers were "targeting the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe, Paris".
In the French declaration, Isil said that the goal of the attacks was a "minimum of 200 dead".

slave2thewage
11-14-2015, 05:24 AM
I heard something earlier about arrests being made in Germany and Belgium that are potentially connected to the attacks. I think ISIS may have dun goofed with this one since EVERYONE will be going after them now.

Frozen Beach
11-14-2015, 06:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9VeJhKh1pc
Footage of hostages escaping from the theatre, including two people hanging on for dear life on the side of the building from the windows. This is incredibly disturbing, so DO NOT WATCH IT if you think you can't stomach it.

witte
11-14-2015, 06:40 AM
World War III is nearing, i think.
I mean to say this world war you cannot compare with the two ww we had in the past, but what i want to say, is that there is already a war going on (a traditional military one, joined by several countries) around Syrie, Irak en Afghanistan, and that there will be more terroristic wars in all the cities in the world, which will be controlled by police and special forces. Very complexed, but this will be the reality for the next couple of years.
Here in Europe, I think the first action will be, that they'll do a reintroduction of the border controls or even close all borders to get some control.
Very sad...

Deepvoid
11-14-2015, 07:44 AM
It's hard not to react emotionally to these tragic events. Of course it'll take a days, probably weeks before we know exactly what happened. Who did what.
We all know the why ... or do we really?

According to some reports, one of the attacker was only 15 years old!! Whether this has been verified information remains to be seen but if true, I think we need reevaluate our actions abroad.
On one hand, if the coalition leaves the ME and completely stop intervening in any manner whatsoever, would we be letting them build a stronger network of terrorists like Al-Qaeda did in the past, resulting in an enemy who has the resources to plan much bigger attacks?
Would closing our borders solve this?
On the other hand, if we bomb the living shit out of Syria for example, are we breeding a new generation of terrorists? Terrorists who appear to have the ability to perpetrate smaller attacks but a lot more difficult to prevent.
Was this 15 years old's parents killed by our own bombs? Was he a normal kid who lost it all and is simply seeking revenge?

This is such a fucking complex situation. It's a fucking clusterfuck.

One thing is for sure, this cannot become the norm. We should not be living in fear of getting attacked in our country. We've been building our respective countries for centuries in a civilized (as best we can at least) manner. These people have their way of doing things, which is clearly much different than us. So how do we handle this?

My thoughts are with the families who lost a loved one yesterday. This sad beyond belief. Lives have been changed forever....

kel
11-14-2015, 10:26 AM
holy shit. terrifying and needless. what the fuck can we do? my heart is aching for you, france.

richardp
11-14-2015, 11:24 AM
I totally understand the importance of the Mizzou racial situation happening in Missouri right now, and I think it's a very important situation in America right now, but this is fucking ignorant behavior. Have some decency and quit trying to compare tragedies. Disgusting.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/mizzou-protestors-are-upset-that-the-terrorist-attacks-in-paris-are-getting-more-attention-than-them/

kel
11-14-2015, 11:33 AM
that's infuriating. utter bullshit.

allegro
11-14-2015, 11:53 AM
According to some reports, one of the attacker was only 15 years old!! Was this 15 years old's parents killed by our own bombs? Was he a normal kid who lost it all and is simply seeking revenge?
I've read many articles about how ISIS is recruiting young people via social media (http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/25/middleeast/isis-kids-propaganda/index.html), using a very very large budget (http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/27/opinions/aamer-isis-recruiting-western-teenagers/).

I'm very worried that we have not heard from Khrz.

Khrz
11-14-2015, 12:18 PM
Sorry, I'm okay. But my younger brother, who was attending the EoDM concert, is still unaccounted for and we've been spending the day refreshing every social network, calling everyone we could, and even searching the hospitals and the fucking morgues to know where he is.

allegro
11-14-2015, 12:25 PM
Sorry, I'm okay. But my younger brother, who was attending the EoDM concert, is still unaccounted for and we've been spending the day refreshing every social network, calling everyone we could, and even searching the hospitals and the fucking morgues to know where he is.

Oh my God, I hope and pray he is okay :(

Swykk
11-14-2015, 12:26 PM
I totally understand the importance of the Mizzou racial situation happening in Missouri right now, and I think it's a very important situation in America right now, but this is fucking ignorant behavior. Have some decency and quit trying to compare tragedies. Disgusting.

http://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/mizzou-protestors-are-upset-that-the-terrorist-attacks-in-paris-are-getting-more-attention-than-them/

Leave it to fucking barstool...

I wish I had something more concrete to say but I'm afraid I'm knee-jerking and wishing we'd all just drop religious extremism and if you're religious, you privately practice it and don't talk about it all the time, posture, and do heinous shit in the name of whatever you're into. AKA Shit that'll never happen.

Conan The Barbarian
11-14-2015, 12:34 PM
Sorry, I'm okay. But my younger brother, who was attending the EoDM concert, is still unaccounted for and we've been spending the day refreshing every social network, calling everyone we could, and even searching the hospitals and the fucking morgues to know where he is.


I am so sorry. I hope you find your brother and my thoughts are with you and your family and friends.

I am really sick of these extremists bringing pain onto others. Sickening.

kel
11-14-2015, 12:38 PM
fuck. please be okay.

slave2thewage
11-14-2015, 12:40 PM
Sorry, I'm okay. But my younger brother, who was attending the EoDM concert, is still unaccounted for and we've been spending the day refreshing every social network, calling everyone we could, and even searching the hospitals and the fucking morgues to know where he is.

My thoughts are with you and your family. I hope he's okay. Some people I know from band fandoms were in the Bataclan but they managed to get out safe.

Deepvoid
11-14-2015, 12:42 PM
Sorry, I'm okay. But my younger brother, who was attending the EoDM concert, is still unaccounted for and we've been spending the day refreshing every social network, calling everyone we could, and even searching the hospitals and the fucking morgues to know where he is.

Positive thoughts sent your way from Montreal. Hope you find your brother safe and sounds. Keep us posted.

cahernandez
11-14-2015, 01:06 PM
Sorry, I'm okay. But my younger brother, who was attending the EoDM concert, is still unaccounted for and we've been spending the day refreshing every social network, calling everyone we could, and even searching the hospitals and the fucking morgues to know where he is.

Stay strong, brother, best wishes from Mexico.

Khrz
11-14-2015, 01:27 PM
Thanks guys.

We had news, the worst ones.

Archive_Reports
11-14-2015, 01:39 PM
Khrz Condolances.

slave2thewage
11-14-2015, 01:44 PM
Thanks guys.

We had news, the worst ones.

I am so sorry. You'll be in my thoughts. I can't imagine what you're going through.

aggroculture
11-14-2015, 01:48 PM
So sorry to hear this Khrz

marodi
11-14-2015, 01:49 PM
Thanks guys.

We had news, the worst ones.

I'm so very sorry. I have no words. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers,

Deepvoid
11-14-2015, 01:51 PM
Khrz my most sincerest condolences.

BRoswell
11-14-2015, 01:52 PM
How devastating. My thoughts are with you, @Khrz (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2023).

icklekitty
11-14-2015, 02:02 PM
Sorry, I'm okay. But my younger brother, who was attending the EoDM concert, is still unaccounted for and we've been spending the day refreshing every social network, calling everyone we could, and even searching the hospitals and the fucking morgues to know where he is.


*edit* I read your later post. So sorry. We are all here for you.


Xoxo

allegro
11-14-2015, 02:06 PM
Khrz, G and I are so sad to hear this news; our sincerest condolences to you and your family.

magnolia
11-14-2015, 02:10 PM
Khrz I'm so sorry. You and your family are in my thoughts.

kel
11-14-2015, 03:03 PM
oh my god. i'm so sorry.

neorev
11-14-2015, 03:20 PM
Khrz Aww, man I'm so sorry. My deepest condolences to you and yours.

Swykk
11-14-2015, 03:20 PM
That's terrible, Khrz. I'm very sorry.

wizfan
11-14-2015, 03:26 PM
oh, no. so sorry, Khrz.

Khrz
11-14-2015, 03:48 PM
Thank you all. I'm logging out of every social network. This has become too personal for me and I can't read the commentaries anymore. To everyone who sent private messages, thank you. I can't reply right now, I'm pretty much at loss for words. I always said there was nothing in the world I loved more than my brothers. Now I now that wasn't posturing. I wish I still had doubts about that.

ManBurning
11-14-2015, 04:14 PM
Shit, really sorry for your loss.

It's strange how this seems a little close to home. I mean, a lot of us on this board interact with one another over common points of interests. We laugh and joke and argue together about trivial things, like TR's hair. But when something like this happens to a member of the forum, it's really tragic.

A lot of us don't know each other in person, and are just "words on a screen" to one another, but when you think about it, this community is pretty tight and in comparison to how many people there are in the world, this message board is peanuts. Not very large number of members here in the grand scheme of things, and to actually have someone on the board who is directly affected by the results of this terror is pretty devastating.

Shows you just how small the world really is, and in the end, we really are all just in this together. Stay strong and head up. Condolences.

orestes
11-14-2015, 04:27 PM
Khrz Fuck, man, I am so sorry for you and your family. If there is *anything* you need help with, do not hesitate to ask.

Baphomette
11-14-2015, 04:36 PM
Khrz Sending much love to you and your family. So very sorry for you loss. We're here for you.

Ryan
11-14-2015, 04:46 PM
Khrz very sorry to hear. My guts dropped when I read your post.

Exocet
11-14-2015, 04:59 PM
God so sorry Khrz.

Does the world seem a lot smaller to anyone else all of a sudden...jesus.

DF118
11-14-2015, 05:01 PM
Truly sorry for your loss, Khrz.

Krazy
11-14-2015, 05:06 PM
So sorry to hear Khrz, thoughts and prayers to you and your family.

scotty79
11-14-2015, 05:08 PM
So sorry for your loss khrz, condolences to you and your family

october_midnight
11-14-2015, 05:11 PM
Khrz May your family find peace and comfort. So sorry to hear.

allegro
11-14-2015, 06:40 PM
I'm just so saddened for our friend Khrz, it feels like a member of our own family has been killed. As I told Khrz, I am so relieved that he is safe yet I am so sad about his loss.

elevenism
11-14-2015, 06:58 PM
Goddamn @Khrz (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2023) i'm so fucking sorry man.

it would fucking KILL me to lose my little bro.

i can't imagine

theimage13
11-14-2015, 07:07 PM
Thanks guys.

We had news, the worst ones.

I don't even know where to start. When this was all happening I was working at a concert myself, checking in with a number of friends who are in Paris and were supposed to be working shows today (including Bataclan). And I was actually in my brother's city, so he came to see me at the gig and was with me when all of this started happening. The day before that I was lucky enough to have a day off and see one of our favorite bands with him, and appreciating how lucky I am to have a sibling I get along with and can do things like that with.

I can't even begin to imagine what you're going through. I won't pretend for a second that I could wrap my head around it. My absolute deepest condolences. I'm not the praying type, but I'm keeping you and your family in my thoughts tonight.

AvelineCyborg
11-14-2015, 07:15 PM
Khrz My deepest condolences for your loss. I'm glad you are safe at least. I send much love to you and your family during this time.

onthewall2983
11-14-2015, 08:33 PM
Goddamn @Khrz (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2023) i'm so fucking sorry man.

it would fucking KILL me to lose my little bro.

i can't imagine

Me too. Khrz, I join everyone else in expressing my sorrow for you and your family.

GibbonBlack
11-14-2015, 08:49 PM
I'm so sorry to hear that Khrz :(

I hope all of our condolences can bring you even the slightest bit of light right now. You're one of us and we're all here for you

Space Suicide
11-14-2015, 09:09 PM
Shit, really sorry for your loss.

It's strange how this seems a little close to home. I mean, a lot of us on this board interact with one another over common points of interests. We laugh and joke and argue together about trivial things, like TR's hair. But when something like this happens to a member of the forum, it's really tragic.

A lot of us don't know each other in person, and are just "words on a screen" to one another, but when you think about it, this community is pretty tight and in comparison to how many people there are in the world, this message board is peanuts. Not very large number of members here in the grand scheme of things, and to actually have someone on the board who is directly affected by the results of this terror is pretty devastating.

Shows you just how small the world really is, and in the end, we really are all just in this together. Stay strong and head up. Condolences.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

sorry to hear this news Khrz :(

Jinsai
11-14-2015, 10:43 PM
god Khrz, I'm so sorry. Please take care. I can't imagine what you're going through, and I'm so sorry.

elevenism
11-14-2015, 11:07 PM
I can't stop thinking about you @Khrz (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2023) and i think that goes for a lot of us here.
We are with you.

I'm sending you love and light from the great high plains of Texas

muad'nin
11-15-2015, 12:36 AM
Khrz, we've never interacted online here, as I'm largely a lurker and only pop up from time-to-time when I feel like there's something I need to say. And I feel like there are a lot of people like me who read ets every day and, just by reading, get to know the different characters who inhabit this little corner of the internet. I guess like in real life, there are those of us who are around, but who maybe don't speak up much. But like I said, just by reading ets, I feel like I've gotten to know, to a degree, a great many of the folks around here. And even though we've never interacted Khrz, I feel like this tragedy has touched someone I know. And that hurts. It hurts me, so I can't begin to imagine what it is you're going through, or what pain you're feeling. But I feel like you need to know that there are many, many people here to whom you've never spoken who wish you positivity, friendship and strength.

As you can see above, your loss has deeply impacted the community here; take some comfort in the fact that there are a great number of people on ets on whom you can lean. Know that we support you and care for you, mate.

My sincerest condolences.

thevoid99
11-15-2015, 01:10 AM
Khrz- I am deeply sorry for your loss. What happened wasn't right. I just hope this stupid atrocity doesn't stop you from going to shows. My deepest condolences.

icklekitty
11-15-2015, 03:23 AM
Fantastic idea! Cc orestes

Khrz
11-15-2015, 03:40 AM
So, I've made this thread real awkward !
Turns out logging out is easier said than done. I need stuff to "entertain" my brain or it becomes a train wreck in there. And I found out that I can put up with commentaries just fine because I really couldn't care less. So, yay for emotional apathy I guess !
It still doesn't compute to be honest, he's not yet missing from my life, and I try not to think too hard about it. We're going to identify the body once all the forensic procedures are over. I dread that, but I really need it.

There is nothing you can do guys. As far as I'm concerned, you're hitting the glass ceiling of awesome. Let's face it, you have no business helping us with my brother's funerals, or even sending flowers. I really, really appreciate the thought, I'm deeply touched, but that would just be plain weird for all parties involved.

There's a long serie of heartfelt saccharine clichés ahead, let me lead that parade : If you want to do something, do something with your loved ones. Fire the XBox up, argue over a game of Catan, plan Christmas, whatever. Watch the stars and discuss about unanswerable shit, learn more about what they love, what they care about. It's never enough.

If the loss I suffered affects you, if you're touched by the distress of a guy on a NIN forum, then imagine what it could be for you and enjoy your people as much as you can. If you feel inspired to do something, do something that matters around you.

I'm still not answering the PMs ; I'm not ignoring them, but I still don't know what to say. Thank you guys.

icklekitty
11-15-2015, 04:30 AM
Those in the UK : people are trying to get Save a Prayer by EODM to number 1 in the charts this week. Buy it!

elevenism
11-15-2015, 04:41 AM
So, I've made this thread real awkward !

Jesus man, it's not your fault!

Khrz
11-15-2015, 04:43 AM
An equally awkward attempt at humor elevenism, pay no mind, I don't function quite right.

elevenism
11-15-2015, 04:48 AM
An equally awkward attempt at humor @elevenism (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2475), pay no mind, I don't function quite right.
i wouldn't be functioning right either man. I'm thinking of you, and like i said, i would imagine that most of us who spend a lot of time here are.
i'm so fucking sorry man. :(

if you want or need to talk, i'm Tyler Jackson Lankford on facebook

ManBurning
11-15-2015, 04:53 AM
So, I've made this thread real awkward !



Jesus man, it's not your fault!

Exactly! I was ready to reply with the exact same thing.
Don't feel weird about any of this. You were brave enough to let out something as personal like this out on a random message board full of people you don't know.
The thing is, a lot of us may not know you directly in person, but we have interacted with you one way or another over the years over these forums.

I'm not always as open to people about personal stuff, even online I find it hard to express myself sometimes. There is still that fear of "will anyone even care? This doesn't affect anyone else, why would I want to pour my heart out for a bunch of random people I have never met" there is also that fear of posting or sharing your deepest or darkest emotional secrets (or embarrassments) online in fear of being laughed at or ridiculed. But I think it's quite clear that we are not the type of people to judge you in a case like this. It's not going to be easy, but we're glad you were brave enough to at least come here and share this very personal information with us. We kinda feel honored that you were ready to even share this information with us, so that kinda counts for something. So don't feel weird about any of it, at all.

I know we're a bunch of random strangers on a web forum, but we're here for you if you need us. And if you wanna take some time off to be with yourself or your family during this time, by all means, do what's right for you man. We'll be waiting for you, just don't feel bad about letting us know. This is something very personal, and it's going to take time.

Khrz
11-15-2015, 05:08 AM
i wouldn't be functioning right either man. I'm thinking of you, and like i said, i would imagine that most of us who spend a lot of time here are.
i'm so fucking sorry man. :(

if you want or need to talk, i'm Tyler Jackson Lankford on facebook

Thanks man, actually I'm starting to stay away from Facebook or Twitter. My brother's chat icon is still there, there are remote family members who may have seen him once in their life starting to make it about them, and random strangers claiming they saw him alive and well on TV. His pic has been relayed to hell and back and there's a really weird reclamation thing going on.


You were brave enough to let out something as personal like this out on a random message board full of people you don't know.

Yeah, I don't actually think there is any bravery in this. First of all I felt obligated to acknowledge your concerns and your support, wouldn't have felt right to just ignore that. But more than anything, when something like that happens, you just have to spit it out, spill it out. First thing I did was calling my ex, who knew him well, and is a close friend of his girlfriend. That gave me a great pretext, but I know I would have called her anyway. I just had to spill my guts. It actually helped because that was the first time I actually cried about it.

elevenism
11-15-2015, 05:24 AM
Thanks man, actually I'm starting to stay away from Facebook or Twitter. My brother's chat icon is still there, there are remote family members who may have seen him once in their life starting to make it about them, and random strangers claiming they saw him alive and well on TV. His pic has been relayed to hell and back and there's a really weird reclamation thing going on.



Yeah, I don't actually think there is any bravery in this. First of all I felt obligated to acknowledge your concerns and your support, wouldn't have felt right to just ignore that. But more than anything, when something like that happens, you just have to spit it out, spill it out. First thing I did was calling my ex, who knew him well, and is a close friend of his girlfriend. That gave me a great pretext, but I know I would have called her anyway. I just had to spill my guts. It actually helped because that was the first time I actually cried about it.

I just can't imagine. I have a brother who is 19 months younger than me and i just can't fucking imagine. And there aren't words to tell you how sorry i am.
I have lost a lot of friends but i've never suffered a loss like this. And goddamnit, we are supposed to suffer such losses when we are old and sick, not in the prime of our lives. :(

And it's a strange thing, but i don't feel like we are "a bunch of random strangers." Somehow, I feel like we are pretty tightly knit around here.
And we are all going to be here for you.

Khrz
11-15-2015, 05:30 AM
Imagine my parents, who thought they'd already be dead and happily buried way before any of their kids would kick it. Fuck, I don't even know if my grandmother is going to make it. This year only she's lost a son, a sister and a grand-kid. There's just so much you can take before you just let go...

elevenism
11-15-2015, 05:35 AM
Imagine my parents, who thought they'd already be dead and happily buried way before any of their kids would kick it. Fuck, I don't even know if my grandmother is going to make it. This year only she's lost a son, a sister and a grand-kid. There's just so much you can take before you just let go...
YOU'RE gonna make it though, right?
it would be hard for me. i have a history with heroin and rampant alcoholism, and i would probably be right back on that shit :(

miss k bee
11-15-2015, 05:55 AM
Imagine my parents, who thought they'd already be dead and happily buried way before any of their kids would kick it. Fuck, I don't even know if my grandmother is going to make it. This year only she's lost a son, a sister and a grand-kid. There's just so much you can take before you just let go...

So sorry for your loss. Condolences to you and your family. I don't know what to say .

Khrz
11-15-2015, 06:19 AM
YOU'RE gonna make it though, right?
it would be hard for me. i have a history with heroin and rampant alcoholism, and i would probably be right back on that shit :(

Found out I'm much less of a grief alcoholic than I would have thought. Somehow it doesn't fit right with my reasons for mourning. Antoine would fucking bitchslap me if I started to get drunk to cope. Similarly, getting high while my brother is dead just doesn't seem fitting.
Yeah, I'll make it through. I have absolutely no idea of the man I'll be once I'm through, but I'll make it.

Khrz
11-15-2015, 07:04 AM
I understand and respect that. Hell, I sympathize.

I have friends all over the country, and beyond, who feel utterly, devastatingly helpless right now. I keep telling them that it's okay, I know they're here, I feel them there.
Look at this fucking thread. You're helping. You're all accompanying me right now in a time of need. How fucking many of you are there, that's incredible.

But the thing is, I'm not the only one involved. There's my family, the future mother of my nephew (because hey, let's make it even worse) and her family. I mentioned this to them, and although they were extremely grateful, they wouldn't understand any "action".

It's hard to explain, but it's a deeply personal loss on a massive scale. It's too big for us, and we're tying to keep it little, because that's our measure. There will certainly be an official ceremony, which we won't attend, for instance. Any gesture on your part would make it bigger. I don't know if I'm making sense. We welcome the thoughts, the love, we're so, so grateful, and we send love back. As much as we can. But amidst a serie of tragedies all over this fucking world, we're simple people, just trying to bring our loved one home and say our goodbyes one last time.

thelastdisciple
11-15-2015, 08:11 AM
I was absolutely dreading to hear any word of loss from anyone on this board regarding this horrible attack.. I can't believe what has happened Khrz

This world is so fucked up, really makes me sick but whatever I'm feeling isn't really important, there's no way it could compare to what you're going through. All i can say is i wish none of this had happened, i am so sorry man. To you and your family, you have my best.

allegro
11-15-2015, 08:25 AM
It's hard to explain, but it's a deeply personal loss on a massive scale. It's too big for us, and we're tying to keep it little, because that's our measure. There will certainly be an official ceremony, which we won't attend, for instance. Any gesture on your part would make it bigger. I don't know if I'm making sense. We welcome the thoughts, the love, we're so, so grateful, and we send love back. As much as we can. But amidst a serie of tragedies all over this fucking world, we're simple people, just trying to bring our loved one home and say our goodbyes one last time.

I understand a lot of what you are saying, because Paris has experienced a massive loss and the entire country is mourning. This is similar to when we knew people who perished in the Trade Center towers on 9-11. And from now on, your family and the families of the other victims will be forever joined in grief but also in unity of life; and that is big enough in the big grief you are already experiencing.

You're right, as much as these senseless deaths hurt, they should teach us to love and appreciate life and each other, because each moment is precious. Your brother probably wouldn't want it any other way.

Each tragedy that occurs in this world, each senseless act, each train or car crash, each act of war, each terrible illness, happens to somebody's brother, sister, son, daughter, father, mother. But this time it happened to somebody we know. And it awakens us to these realities and brings it a little too close to home.

allegro
11-15-2015, 08:42 AM
I'm still reading about the events in Paris and a lot of people are still searching for their missing loved ones, it's very sad and disturbing; much like on September 11th with all the "Missing" posters everywhere.

Khrz
11-15-2015, 09:25 AM
I'm still reading about the events in Paris and a lot of people are still searching for their missing loved ones, it's very sad and disturbing; much like on September 11th with all the "Missing" posters everywhere.

It's a mess. What I find truly miraculous in this day and age, is that they seem to find people who were just that, missing. Hiding somewhere, unseen, unheard, until suddenly we find out they are alive and well.
There are also the people so injured they can't say who they are for the time being. Or in our case, the forensics institute asking for our help determining which body is ours. They aren't too sure, so they needed the family to come and identify the bodies. Which will help identify the other ones, by elimination.

I just can't imagine how those families feel. We have spent 8 hours in dread before we got told the news. Some people are still wondering if, maybe... Damn that's no way to live...

kel
11-15-2015, 09:44 AM
I understand and respect that. Hell, I sympathize.

I have friends all over the country, and beyond, who feel utterly, devastatingly helpless right now. I keep telling them that it's okay, I know they're here, I feel them there.
Look at this fucking thread. You're helping. You're all accompanying me right now in a time of need. How fucking many of you are there, that's incredible.

But the thing is, I'm not the only one involved. There's my family, the future mother of my nephew (because hey, let's make it even worse) and her family. I mentioned this to them, and although they were extremely grateful, they wouldn't understand any "action".

It's hard to explain, but it's a deeply personal loss on a massive scale. It's too big for us, and we're tying to keep it little, because that's our measure. There will certainly be an official ceremony, which we won't attend, for instance. Any gesture on your part would make it bigger. I don't know if I'm making sense. We welcome the thoughts, the love, we're so, so grateful, and we send love back. As much as we can. But amidst a serie of tragedies all over this fucking world, we're simple people, just trying to bring our loved one home and say our goodbyes one last time.

my god. you articulate it so beautifully in the heart of such sadness and grief.

god bless you and your family. we're with you.

allegro
11-15-2015, 09:48 AM
I was reading that these monsters focused on shooting people in the handicapped section at the concert, people in wheelchairs up front?



I just can't imagine how those families feel. We have spent 8 hours in dread before we got told the news. Some people are still wondering if, maybe... Damn that's no way to live...Yes, at least you *know*. You received terrible news, but at least you're no longer kept in this desperate fog of not knowing. It's just heartbreaking, these people with the photos online and these desperate messages with #rechercheParis. It truly is miraculous that they find missing people who were just missing but are alive and okay or maybe just injured; Facebook is using that "I am Safe" thing, now?

DVYDRNS
11-15-2015, 10:05 AM
I have been here since friday. Its intense out on the streets. Its quiet. Everything is closed. My flat is 3 blocks from where EODM were playing. Its pure fluke that I didn't know they were playing. Because I know those guys... and if i knew they were here, i would have 100% been there. Talk about an eerie feeling...

allegro
11-15-2015, 10:10 AM
I have been here since friday. Its intense out on the streets. Its quiet. Everything is closed. My flat is 3 blocks from where EODM were playing. Its pure fluke that I didn't know they were playing. Because I know those guys... and if i knew they were here, i would have 100% been there. Talk about an eerie feeling...
So glad you are safe and okay.


Meanwhile, Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah condemned the Paris attacks and vowed retaliation for the Beirut bombings (http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/ISIS-Threat/Hezbollah-chief-condemns-Paris-attacks-vows-retaliation-for-Beirut-bombings-433091).

I'm having a hard time keeping track of this. It all appears to boil down to Shiite vs. Sunni, as usual. I think the US may have to switch teams at some point.

allegro
11-15-2015, 12:15 PM
Last night, Saturday Night Live's opening paid a touching tribute to Paris (http://time.com/4113622/paris-attacks-saturday-night-live/)

elevenism
11-15-2015, 01:37 PM
i have a sinking feeling that this attack is just the beginning.

i think the next few years are gonna get pretty fucking strange

allegro
11-15-2015, 01:45 PM
IS warned that this (and the Russian plane, and Lebanon) is just the beginning in a series of planned attacks.

kel
11-15-2015, 02:41 PM
it makes me so scared for my sister and brother-in-law in new york city. and my best friend in seattle. fuck, i guess there's nowhere safe right now. it could happen in fucking boise.

things are so messed up.

Exocet
11-15-2015, 03:07 PM
Im in London and this is terrifying. Only 200 miles away
We have never had a terrorist attack kill 132 people here... Despite long history of terrorism.

The scale of this is one is shocking. This is World War 2 type shit.

I watched this unfold all night on Friday. I happened to watching France 24 (an amazing English speaking news channel)....from the earliest breaking news, of a 'shooting in the 11th arrondessment'.... i found it odd an international news company would report on an individual shooting in a massive city...i could not beleive what it turned into...its just got worse and worse as it unfolded.

allegro
11-15-2015, 04:27 PM
it makes me so scared for my sister and brother-in-law in new york city. and my best friend in seattle. fuck, i guess there's nowhere safe right now.
G was wondering if they would again target D.C. and NYC, like on Sept 11 (nearly 3,000 were killed and over 6,000 were injured). I remember being in Chicago, and people were beating it out of the Loop to get away from the Willis (then Sears) Tower because nobody knew what would be the next target. Right now it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop, again.

Earlier today, I was watching CNN and thousands of people in Paris had gathered at a memorial (which isn't supposed to be happening right now since it has been temporarily banned for security reasons) and something spooked the crowd and panic set in and the crowd started running and screaming; people are still very scared and on edge.

Edit: France launches massive air strike on ISIS stronghold in Syria (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/16/france-launches-massive-airstrike-on-isis-stronghold-in-syria-after-paris-attack).


The operation, carried out in coordination with US forces, struck a command centre, recruitment centre for jihadists, a munitions depot and a training camp for fighters, it said.

A defence official was quoted by Associated Press as saying the strikes were ‘massive’ and had destroyed two jihadi sites in Raqqa.

Hazekiah
11-15-2015, 04:45 PM
^ I worked for Carlyn Berghoff Catering and was scheduled to work at the Sears Tower on 9/11.

I hadn't really seen any news yet that day because I was staying at my hippy (ex-) gf's place and she keeps her TV in the closet, plus 9/11/94 is the date of my first NIN and/or Manson show, so I was watching the bootleg of that like I do every year instead of the news. She heard about the Twin Towers on the radio in the shower and we spent the rest of the morning glued to the TV like everyone else.

We both figured my Sears Tower event was probably cancelled, but I couldn't confirm that so I had to go anyway and it was pretty eerie to see downtown Chicago basically looking like a ghost town in the middle of the day like that.

And, especially considering that the event WAS cancelled because authorities suspected a follow-up attack on the building, it was pretty unnerving to hear almost nothing but the fighter jets scrambled overhead screaming by and echoing through the concrete canyons of Chicago the whole time. Couldn't SEE them, just HEAR them, and we had no idea it was fighter jets at the time!

Definitely an unpleasant, twitchy ambiance.

allegro
11-15-2015, 04:52 PM
^ Yeah, after the air traffic controllers had cleared all air traffic from the skies, the only planes left were F-16s.

After that, you had to start providing ID to get into the Sears Tower and a lot of other Loop buildings.

Hazekiah
11-15-2015, 05:03 PM
The next time I catered there was about a month later and in the meantime I'd helped my dad build-up the roof of his garage another 10 feet to convert it into a makeshift barn and I didn't realize I still had five inch nails in my coat pocket from the job.

They confiscated them when they set off the metal detector and wouldn't even give them back on my way out, lol.

No problem whatsoever with my bartending knife and bladed corckscrew, though!

So absurd.

DigitalChaos
11-15-2015, 05:16 PM
If you want to do something, do something with your loved ones. Fire the XBox up, argue over a game of Catan, plan Christmas, whatever. Watch the stars and discuss about unanswerable shit, learn more about what they love, what they care about. It's never enough.

that was french as fuck, you're awesome.

im ridiculously bad at dealing with things like this, but this entire thread is a great example of some of the great things that the ETS community possess. It's an increasingly rare thing these days. I'm glad to see you have a good place to distract you.

DigitalChaos
11-15-2015, 05:18 PM
As for the wider topic of the Paris attacks. I really hope they hold the country together. I'm seeing a whole lot of talk about restricting all kinds of freedoms along the lines of how the USA fucked up after 9/11.

kel
11-15-2015, 05:23 PM
taking our shoes off at security isn't a big deal considering.

i'm waiting and terrified for the attack on us soil. it feels imminent. and it is.

DigitalChaos
11-15-2015, 05:38 PM
taking our shoes off at security isn't a big deal considering.

i'm waiting and terrified for the attack on us soil. it feels imminent. and it is.
Taking your shoes off doesn't actually improve your security.

However, I'm more thinking about the calls to go after certain mosques and shut them down (even by the french interior minister), calls to go after encrypted communications, and a whole bunch of other stupid shit that I haven't had a chance to keep up on.

kel
11-15-2015, 06:13 PM
i never thought it did, was/is an inconvenience, nothing more.

i'm going to open myself up for scrutiny here, but i think mosques are the perfect place to start investigations. when people say that only 9 % of muslims are extremists, well guess what the fuck that means? hundreds of thousands.

none of these assholes represent islam as it is, but i'm fucking sick of this shit.

orestes
11-15-2015, 06:48 PM
Nooooooope.

DF118
11-15-2015, 07:07 PM
i never thought it did, was/is an inconvenience, nothing more.

i'm going to open myself up for scrutiny here, but i think mosques are the perfect place to start investigations. when people say that only 9 % of muslims are extremists, well guess what the fuck that means? hundreds of thousands.

none of these assholes represent islam as it is, but i'm fucking sick of this shit.

I'm muslim. Does that mean that there's a 9% chance that I'm an extremist?

kel
11-15-2015, 07:11 PM
see?

i shouldn't have said that. and right now i wish i didn't. i'm really sorry.

slave2thewage
11-15-2015, 07:13 PM
when people say that only 9 % of muslims are extremists, well guess what the fuck that means? hundreds of thousands.

There's an estimated 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, I think we'd be a lot more fucked if 9% of that figure were extremists.

Go after radicalized imams? Go ahead. Shut down random mosques? Nope.

DF118
11-15-2015, 07:14 PM
see?

i shouldn't have said that. and right now i wish i didn't. i'm really sorry.

Accepted. See- the way you've reacted- that's exactly the fear and discord that terrorists are trying to perpetuate. That's the goal. That's how they win.

kel
11-15-2015, 07:17 PM
listen, i said something fucked up that i can't delete. i'm very sorry. that wasn't true or justified.

kel
11-15-2015, 07:25 PM
and not how i really feel. at all. its easy to get caught up in this shit and get angry. i'm so sorry to every muslim board member and anyone else i offended.

holy shit. i love all of you and feel like garbage.

kel
11-15-2015, 07:32 PM
orestes you know i mean well. i fucked up this time. in a big way. i'll shut my mouth.

kel
11-15-2015, 07:40 PM
i'm sickened with what i've said. please don't drag me through the mud too much. i'm ashamed and very sad.

edit: feel free. i deserve it.

orestes
11-15-2015, 07:44 PM
Your mea culpa has been accepted. No need to beat yourself over it; just stop and think before you post next time.

kel
11-15-2015, 08:18 PM
i will. christ, generalizations like that are the root problems. i'm so, so sorry.

GibbonBlack
11-15-2015, 08:29 PM
listen, i said something fucked up that i can't delete. i'm very sorry. that wasn't true or justified.


Don't delete it. Let every see that you said it, and then that you had your mind changed and apologised. There's not enough of that happening these days and it's good to see

kel
11-15-2015, 08:40 PM
i don't want to be an example. i'm so ashamed. i know better.

i just need to go to bed and forget this shit.

Conan The Barbarian
11-15-2015, 08:48 PM
You know what pisses me off, people on social media calling everyone sheep for showing any remorse towards the victims of this tragedy.

Seriously? How the fuck ?

Jinsai
11-15-2015, 09:55 PM
it could be any religion. You can rally people around ideas, any idea. Any concept can be twisted to brainwash people and convince them to do terrible things. I used to think there was something inherently "powerful" about the way Islam seemed to be capable of fueling the capacity to do this sort of thing, but I realized it has nothing to do with it really.

These terror groups could self-identify as buddhist, and they could still use a twisted "interpretation" of that to accomplish the same ultimate goal. The only reason they're using Islam is because it's the predominant religion in the regions where these groups are recruiting.

allegro
11-15-2015, 10:03 PM
Here, this is a really good article about the "caliphate." (http://qz.com/546973/only-a-real-islamic-caliphate-can-stand-up-to-the-sham-of-isil/)

allegro
11-15-2015, 11:29 PM
Because this is just scratching the surface. They are like cockroaches. You can't bomb one apartment and rid the whole building of bugs. The bugs are everywhere, and the bugs move to a new location.

Worse yet, word is that the U.S. and French governments had been warned by Iraq of a possible attack. This was a huge intelligence failure (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c9302b053f23414ea41ae48287a823d0/ap-newsbreak-iraq-warned-attacks-paris-assault).

Ryan
11-15-2015, 11:52 PM
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ilircz.png

Jinsai
11-16-2015, 01:12 AM
Ugh to that last comment response to Stephen King. It's not just "the atheists" who are stereotyping Muslims. The knee-jerk reaction is understandable... after all, it's the reaction the terrorists are trying to invoke.

Exocet
11-16-2015, 01:40 AM
Yeah that Stephen King thing is bullshit...its so much more complex....

cynicmuse
11-16-2015, 03:14 AM
This (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/) is a rather long article in The Atlantic, but it's a good overview of ISIS and its goals, as well as how it differs from Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda usually didn't go after soft targets in an effort to avoid killing other Muslims, while ISIS goes after soft targets in effort to terrorize them into submission. ISIS thinks that the apocalypse is coming, and they're going to do everything possible to set up the conditions for it to happen.

Rdm
11-16-2015, 03:59 AM
Khrz

Holy fuck, I'm sincerely so sorry for your loss.

Khrz
11-16-2015, 04:43 AM
Ugh to that last comment response to Stephen King. It's not just "the atheists" who are stereotyping Muslims. The knee-jerk reaction is understandable... after all, it's the reaction the terrorists are trying to invoke.

I think the "atheists" comment was in response to the Westboro=Christians part though.

But yeah, just because the guys are Muslims and manipulated via this ideology doesn't make them representative of the faith as a whole. They have a whole other bunch of issues, very little of which are addressed. Religion happens to be a prominent, well-established structure with a strong culture, "clear" guidelines, and in this case easy to twist into an immediate call for radical action. It could be anything.

miss k bee
11-16-2015, 05:31 AM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/shamisivasubramanian/waleed-alys-powerful-speech-following-the-paris-attacks-is-a#.svkOZLkbl

Nyx
11-16-2015, 05:32 AM
http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/
I thought it was an interesting article on why those fighters join the ranks of terrorists in the first place and how it has less to do with radical Islamic ideas than you might think.

orestes
11-16-2015, 06:14 AM
Yeah, it's called blowback.

Meanwhile, Hollande is considering extending a state of emergency (http://www.france24.com/en/20151115-what-does-france-state-emergency-mean) to three months. Not good.

botley
11-16-2015, 08:07 AM
These terror groups could self-identify as buddhist, and they could still use a twisted "interpretation" of that to accomplish the same ultimate goal.
Precisely. In fact, that is exactly what's happened in Myanmar (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95Q04720130627); the monk class became so twisted by anti-Muslim sentiment that they warped into murderous gangs. Daesh is preying on fears that they will become a global Islamic caliphate; other groups are pushing back in kind with viciously ignorant violence. We must take care in the West not to fall in that trap.

It's part of their plan (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis).

allegro
11-16-2015, 10:44 AM
There is also Sunnis vs. Shiites (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-detail-sunnis-vs-shiites/).


There are 1.6 billion Muslims across the world. Roughly 85% of them are Sunnis.

The division began after the death of the Prophet Mohammed some 1,400 years ago, as a disagreement about who should succeed him.

The Sunnis felt that Abu Bakr, a close friend of the prophet's, ought to be the next Muslim leader.

But the Shiites claimed that Mohammed had annointed his son-in-law, Ali, as his rightful successor.

The Sunnis won out, but a split was born, and that rift was cemented when Ali's son was later killed by the ruling Sunni's troops -- an event which the Shiites commemorate every year.

Fast-forward more than a thousand years, and the situation is worse than ever. According to a poll by Pew Research, some 40% of Sunnis don't even regard Shiites as real Muslims.

But there's more than theology at work here. Perhaps even more important is geography.

One hundred years ago, around the time of the First World War, the Middle East was carved up in a Franco-British pact called the Sykes-Picot Agreement. But the Europeans had little interest in understanding the religious and ethnic intricacies of the Middle East when they divided up the region. Still, these arbitrary borders became the blueprint for today's maps.

The Shiites were divided primarily among Iran, Iraq and Lebanon, with Alawites (an off-shoot of Shia Islam) in Syria. This area has come to be known as the Shia crescent.

Sunni Muslims make up the bulk of the population of other countries in the region, with pockets of Shiites scattered among them.

As you might expect, problems arise in countries where both sects are vying for power, or one feels oppressed. In Syria, for example, a Sunni majority has been ruled for the last 45 years by an Alawite minority.

In Iraq, a Sunni minority ruled over the Shiite majority for decades. After the U.S. invasion, Saddam Hussein -- a Sunni -- was overthrown, and a Shiite government took over. That government proceeded to marginalize the Sunnis, and now some of those disenfranchised Sunnis have gone on to form the so-called Islamic State, or ISIS.

Let's do a quick who's-who in the Middle East: Al Qaeda and ISIS are Sunni Muslim groups. Hezbollah is Shiite.

Osama bin Laden was a Sunni. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is an Alawite. And the Iranian mullahs are Shiites as well, which helps explain why Iran has gotten involved in the conflict in Syria.

See also this (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/26haykel.html?_r=0)

See this re Iraq and Iran and Shias (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/06/18/the-sunni-shia-divide-where-they-live-what-they-believe-and-how-they-view-each-other/)


The Sunni-Shia divide is nearly 1,400 years old, dating back to a dispute over the succession of leadership in the Muslim community following the death of the Prophet Muhammad in 632.

Despite periods of open conflict between Sunnis and Shias in countries such as Lebanon and Iraq, the two groups are not all that different in terms of religious beliefs and commitment. In Iraq, for example, both groups express virtually universal belief in God and the Prophet Muhammad, and similar percentages (82% of Shias and 83% of Sunnis) say religion is very important in their lives. More than nine-in-ten Iraqi Shias (93%) and Sunnis (96%) say they fast during the holy month of Ramadan.

In some countries, significant shares of Muslims don’t even see the distinction between Sunni and Shia Islam as relevant. A survey of Muslims in 39 countries that we conducted in 2011 and 2012 found, for example, that 74% of Muslims in Kazakhstan and 56% of Muslims in Indonesia identified themselves as neither Sunni nor Shia, but “just a Muslim.” In Iraq, however, only 5% answered “just a Muslim.”

On some religious issues, including whether it is acceptable to visit the shrines of Muslim saints, the differences between the sects are more apparent. For some, the divide is even exclusionary. In late 2011, 14% of Iraqi Sunnis said they do not consider Shias to be Muslims. (By contrast, only 1% of Shias in Iraq said that Sunnis are not Muslims.) Even higher percentages of Sunnis in other countries, such as Sunni-dominated Egypt (53%), say that Shias are not Muslims.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2014/06/FT_14.06.17_ShiaSunni.png

Jinsai
11-16-2015, 11:02 AM
so now it's apparently come out that the attackers coordinated and communicated via Playstation 4s?

DigitalChaos
11-16-2015, 11:22 AM
so now it's apparently come out that the attackers coordinated and communicated via Playstation 4s?

Link?
I know there was a story on that a while back about terrorists, in general, using it. There are loads of communication methods they use though. All this "Snowden has blood on his hands and we should further impede privacy" rhetoric is ridiculous.

allegro
11-16-2015, 11:35 AM
This (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/) is a rather long article in The Atlantic, but it's a good overview of ISIS and its goals, as well as how it differs from Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda usually didn't go after soft targets in an effort to avoid killing other Muslims, while ISIS goes after soft targets in effort to terrorize them into submission. ISIS thinks that the apocalypse is coming, and they're going to do everything possible to set up the conditions for it to happen.

This is a really really fascinating article, I wish everybody would read this.


I. Devotion

In November, the Islamic State released an infomercial-like video tracing its origins to bin Laden. It acknowledged Abu Musa’b al Zarqawi, the brutal head of al‑Qaeda in Iraq from roughly 2003 until his killing in 2006, as a more immediate progenitor, followed sequentially by two other guerrilla leaders before Baghdadi , the caliph (http://qz.com/546973/only-a-real-islamic-caliphate-can-stand-up-to-the-sham-of-isil/). Notably unmentioned: bin Laden’s successor, Ayman al Zawahiri, the owlish Egyptian eye surgeon who currently heads al‑Qaeda. Zawahiri has not pledged allegiance to Baghdadi, and he is increasingly hated by his fellow jihadists. His isolation is not helped by his lack of charisma; in videos he comes across as squinty and annoyed. But the split between al-Qaeda and the Islamic State has been long in the making, and begins to explain, at least in part, the outsize bloodlust of the latter.

Zawahiri’s companion in isolation is a Jordanian cleric named Abu Muhammad al Maqdisi, 55, who has a fair claim to being al-Qaeda’s intellectual architect and the most important jihadist unknown to the average American newspaper reader. On most matters of doctrine, Maqdisi and the Islamic State agree. Both are closely identified with the jihadist wing of a branch of Sunnism called Salafism, after the Arabic al salaf al salih, the “pious forefathers.” These forefathers are the Prophet himself and his earliest adherents, whom Salafis honor and emulate as the models for all behavior, including warfare, couture, family life, even dentistry.

Maqdisi taught Zarqawi, who went to war in Iraq with the older man’s advice in mind. In time, though, Zarqawi surpassed his mentor in fanaticism, and eventually earned his rebuke. At issue was Zarqawi’s penchant for bloody spectacle—and, as a matter of doctrine, his hatred of other Muslims, to the point of excommunicating and killing them. In Islam, the practice of takfir, or excommunication, is theologically perilous. “If a man says to his brother, ‘You are an infidel,’ ” the Prophet said, “then one of them is right.” If the accuser is wrong, he himself has committed apostasy by making a false accusation. The punishment for apostasy is death. And yet Zarqawi heedlessly expanded the range of behavior that could make Muslims infidels.

Maqdisi wrote to his former pupil that he needed to exercise caution and “not issue sweeping proclamations of takfir” or “proclaim people to be apostates because of their sins.” The distinction between apostate and sinner may appear subtle, but it is a key point of contention between al-Qaeda and the Islamic State.

Denying the holiness of the Koran or the prophecies of Muhammad is straightforward apostasy. But Zarqawi and the state he spawned take the position that many other acts can remove a Muslim from Islam. These include, in certain cases, selling alcohol or drugs, wearing Western clothes or shaving one’s beard, voting in an election—even for a Muslim candidate—and being lax about calling other people apostates. Being a Shiite, as most Iraqi Arabs are, meets the standard as well, because the Islamic State regards Shiism as innovation, and to innovate on the Koran is to deny its initial perfection. (The Islamic State claims that common Shiite practices, such as worship at the graves of imams and public self-flagellation, have no basis in the Koran or in the example of the Prophet.) That means roughly 200 million Shia are marked for death. So too are the heads of state of every Muslim country, who have elevated man-made law above Sharia by running for office or enforcing laws not made by God.

Following takfiri doctrine, the Islamic State is committed to purifying the world by killing vast numbers of people. The lack of objective reporting from its territory makes the true extent of the slaughter unknowable, but social-media posts from the region suggest that individual executions happen more or less continually, and mass executions every few weeks. Muslim “apostates” are the most common victims. Exempted from automatic execution, it appears, are Christians who do not resist their new government. Baghdadi permits them to live, as long as they pay a special tax, known as the jizya, and acknowledge their subjugation. The Koranic authority for this practice is not in dispute.

But then we also have to look at something called Wahhabism.

Wahhabism to ISIS: how Saudi Arabia exported the main source of global terrorism (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-isis-how-saudi-arabia-exported-main-source-global-terrorism) "Although IS is certainly an Islamic movement, it is neither typical nor mired in the distant past, because its roots are in Wahhabism, a form of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia that developed only in the 18th century."


So the 18th-century reformers were convinced that if Muslims were to regain lost power and prestige, they must return to the fundamentals of their faith, ensuring that God – rather than materialism or worldly ambition – dominated the political order. There was nothing militant about this “fundamentalism”; rather, it was a grass-roots attempt to reorient society and did not involve jihad. One of the most influential of these revivalists was Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703-91), a learned scholar of Najd in central Arabia, whose teachings still inspire Muslim reformers and extremists today. He was especially concerned about the popular cult of saints and the idolatrous rituals at their tombs, which, he believed, attributed divinity to mere mortals. He insisted that every single man and woman should concentrate instead on the study of the Quran and the “traditions” (hadith) about the customary practice (Sunnah) of the Prophet and his companions. Like Luther, Ibn Abd al-Wahhab wanted to return to the earliest teachings of his faith and eject all later medieval accretions. He therefore opposed Sufism and Shiaism as heretical innovations (bidah), and he urged all Muslims to reject the learned exegesis developed over the centuries by the ulema (“scholars”) and interpret the texts for themselves.

This naturally incensed the clergy and threatened local rulers, who believed that interfering with these popular devotions would cause social unrest. Eventually, however, Ibn Abd al-Wahhab found a patron in Muhammad Ibn Saud, a chieftain of Najd who adopted his ideas. But tension soon developed between the two because Ibn Abd al-Wahhab refused to endorse Ibn Saud’s military campaigns for plunder and territory, insisting that jihad could not be waged for personal profit but was permissible only when the umma was attacked militarily. He also forbade the Arab custom of killing prisoners of war, the deliberate destruction of property and the slaughter of civilians, including women and children. Nor did he ever claim that those who fell in battle were martyrs who would be rewarded with a high place in heaven, because a desire for such self-aggrandisement was incompatible with jihad. Two forms of Wahhabism were emerging: where Ibn Saud was happy to enforce Wahhabi Islam with the sword to enhance his political position, Ibn Abd al-Wahhab insisted that education, study and debate were the only legitimate means of spreading the one true faith.

Yet although scripture was so central to Ibn Abd al-Wahhab’s ideology, by insisting that his version of Islam alone had validity, he had distorted the Quranic message. The Quran firmly stated that “There must be no coercion in matters of faith” (2:256), ruled that Muslims must believe in the revelations of all the great prophets (3:84) and that religious pluralism was God’s will (5:48). Muslims had, therefore, been traditionally wary of takfir, the practice of declaring a fellow Muslim to be an unbeliever (kafir). Hitherto Sufism, which had developed an outstanding appreciation of other faith traditions, had been the most popular form of Islam and had played an important role in both social and religious life. “Do not praise your own faith so exclusively that you disbelieve all the rest,” urged the great mystic Ibn al-Arabi (d.1240). “God the omniscient and omnipresent cannot be confined to any one creed.” It was common for a Sufi to claim that he was a neither a Jew nor a Christian, nor even a Muslim, because once you glimpsed the divine, you left these man-made distinctions behind.

Despite his rejection of other forms of Islam, Ibn Abd al-Wahhab himself refrained from takfir, arguing that God alone could read the heart, but after his death Wahhabis cast this inhibition aside and the generous pluralism of Sufism became increasingly suspect in the Muslim world.

After his death, too, Wahhabism became more violent, an instrument of state terror. As he sought to establish an independent kingdom, Abd al-Aziz Ibn Muhammad, Ibn Saud’s son and successor, used takfir to justify the wholesale slaughter of resistant populations. In 1801, his army sacked the holy Shia city of Karbala in what is now Iraq, plundered the tomb of Imam Husain, and slaughtered thousands of Shias, including women and children; in 1803, in fear and panic, the holy city of Mecca surrendered to the Saudi leader.

Eventually, in 1815, the Ottomans despatched Muhammad Ali Pasha, governor of Egypt, to crush the Wahhabi forces and destroy their capital. But Wahhabism became a political force once again during the First World War when the Saudi chieftain – another Abd al-Aziz – made a new push for statehood and began to carve out a large kingdom for himself in the Middle East with his devout Bedouin army, known as the Ikhwan, the “Brotherhood”.

In the Ikhwan we see the roots of IS. To break up the tribes and wean them from the nomadic life, which was deemed incompatible with Islam, the Wahhabi clergy had settled the Bedouin in oases, where they learned farming and the crafts of sedentary life and were indoctrinated in Wahhabi Islam. Once they exchanged the time-honoured ghazu raid, which typically resulted in the plunder of livestock, for the jihad, these Bedouin fighters became more violent and extreme, covering their faces when they encountered Europeans and non-Saudi Arabs and fighting with lances and swords because they disdained weaponry not used by the Prophet. In the old ghazu raids, the Bedouin had always kept casualties to a minimum and did not attack non-combatants. Now the Ikhwan routinely massacred “apostate” unarmed villagers in their thousands, thought nothing of slaughtering women and children, and routinely slit the throats of all male captives.

In 1915, Abd al-Aziz planned to conquer the Hijaz (an area in the west of present-day Saudi Arabia that includes the cities of Mecca and Medina), the Persian Gulf to the east of Najd, and the land that is now Syria and Jordan in the north, but during the 1920s he tempered his ambitions in order to acquire diplomatic standing as a nation state with Britain and the United States. The Ikhwan, however, continued to raid the British protectorates of Iraq, Transjordan and Kuwait, insisting that no limits could be placed on jihad. Regarding all modernisation as bidah, the Ikhwan also attacked Abd al-Aziz for permitting telephones, cars, the telegraph, music and smoking – indeed, anything unknown in Muhammad’s time – until finally Abd al-Aziz quashed their rebellion in 1930.

...

Saudi Arabia. Its swords, covered faces and cut-throat executions all recall the original Brotherhood. But it is unlikely that the IS hordes consist entirely of diehard jihadists. A substantial number are probably secularists who resent the status quo in Iraq: Ba’athists from Saddam Hussein’s regime and former soldiers of his disbanded army. This would explain IS’s strong performance against professional military forces. In all likelihood, few of the young recruits are motivated either by Wahhabism or by more traditional Muslim ideals. In 2008, MI5’s behavioural science unit noted that, “far from being religious zealots, a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practise their faith regularly. Many lack religious literacy and could . . . be regarded as religious novices.” A significant proportion of those convicted of terrorism offences since the 9/11 attacks have been non-observant, or are self-taught, or, like the gunman in the recent attack on the Canadian parliament, are converts to Islam. They may claim to be acting in the name of Islam, but when an untalented beginner tells us that he is playing a Beethoven sonata, we hear only cacophony. Two wannabe jihadists who set out from Birmingham for Syria last May had ordered [I]Islam for Dummies from Amazon.

It would be a mistake to see IS as a throwback; it is, as the British philosopher John Gray has argued, a thoroughly modern movement that has become an efficient, self-financing business with assets estimated at $2bn. Its looting, theft of gold bullion from banks, kidnapping, siphoning of oil in the conquered territories and extortion have made it the wealthiest jihadist group in the world. There is nothing random or irrational about IS violence. The execution videos are carefully and strategically planned to inspire terror, deter dissent and sow chaos in the greater population.

Mass killing is a thoroughly modern phenomenon. During the French Revolution, which led to the emergence of the first secular state in Europe, the Jacobins publicly beheaded about 17,000 men, women and children. In the First World War, the Young Turks slaughtered over a million Armenians, including women, children and the elderly, to create a pure Turkic nation. The Soviet Bolsheviks, the Khmer Rouge and the Red Guard all used systematic terrorism to purge humanity of corruption. Similarly, IS uses violence to achieve a single, limited and clearly defined objective that would be impossible without such slaughter. As such, it is another expression of the dark side of modernity.

DigitalChaos
11-16-2015, 11:39 AM
I think the "atheists" comment was in response to the Westboro=Christians part though.

But yeah, just because the guys are Muslims and manipulated via this ideology doesn't make them representative of the faith as a whole. They have a whole other bunch of issues, very little of which are addressed. Religion happens to be a prominent, well-established structure with a strong culture, "clear" guidelines, and in this case easy to twist into an immediate call for radical action. It could be anything.

A word of caution using this to the point we miss an important component of the situation.

"Not all Catholics are pedophiles" in response to several of that church's scandals. It's true, but kind of dismissive.

"Mormons are not true Christians" would be even more questionable considering how subjective religion is. Mormon's differ from other Christians a lot more than ISIS differs from other Muslims. The Mormons invented their own religious texts. There really isn't any hard line for who is and who isn't a part of a certain religion.

allegro
11-16-2015, 01:51 PM
Link?
I know there was a story on that a while back about terrorists, in general, using it. There are loads of communication methods they use though.
Here is one of many links (http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/11/14/why-the-paris-isis-terrorists-used-ps4-to-plan-attacks/). Note that it says this:


Correction: This post has been edited as it has not been confirmed that a [Playstation 4] console was found as a result of these specific Belgian terror raids. Minister Jambon was speaking about tactics he knows ISIS to be using generally. Evidence gathered in recent raids has not been publicly listed.

orestes
11-16-2015, 06:47 PM
CIA Director Brennan, whose agency has virtually an unlimited budget, extraordinary powers with little oversight, says the attacks happened because privacy advocates have undermined the ability of spies to monitor terrorists.

eversonpoe
11-16-2015, 09:36 PM
CIA Director Brennan, whose agency has virtually an unlimited budget, extraordinary powers with little oversight, says the attacks happened because privacy advocates have undermined the ability of spies to monitor terrorists.

can an entire person be face-palmed? because seriously. are you fucking kidding? what a moron -_-

thevoid99
11-16-2015, 09:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glxh9ZgP7kc

allegro
11-16-2015, 09:47 PM
ISIS says D.C. will be next target (http://www.newsweek.com/isis-video-threatens-washington-dc-paris-style-attacks-394816)

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 12:17 AM
can an entire person be face-palmed? because seriously. are you fucking kidding? what a moron -_-
The US govt had just started backing off their position of mandated backdoors in encrypted communications. They are going to milk any terrorist attack in hopes of getting some more privacy invasive shit passed. No matter what they say, nothing will force evil-doers to use weakened crypto systems. It will only be the law abiding citizens stuck with it. There is plenty of strong crypto out there that isn't going to vanish. Some of the strongest is from the 90's!


It's a really good time to show people this commentary on the evil automobile from the 1922 Michigan Supreme Court:
"The automobile is a swift and powerful vehicle of recent development, which has multiplied by quantity production and taken possession of our highways in battalions, until the slower, animal-drawn vehicles, with their easily noted individuality, are rare. Constructed as covered vehicles to standard form in immense quantities, and with a capacity for speed rivaling express trains, they furnish for successful commission of crime a disguising means of silent approach and swift escape unknown in the history of the world before their advent. The question of their police control and reasonable search on highways or other public places is a serious question far deeper and broader than their use in so-called 'bootlegging' or 'rumrunning,' which in itself is no small matter. While a possession in the sense of private ownership, they are but a vehicle constructed for travel and transportation on highways. Their active use is not in homes nor on private premises, the privacy of which the law especially guards from search and seizure without process. The baffling extent to which they are successfully utilized to facilitate commission of crime of all degrees, from those against morality, chastity, and decency to robbery, rape, burglary, and murder, is a matter of common knowledge. Upon that problem a condition and not a theory confronts proper administration of our criminal laws. Whether search of and seizure from an automobile upon a highway or other public place without a search warrant is unreasonable is in its final analysis to be determined as a judicial question in view of all the circumstances under which it is made."

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 12:53 AM
ok, apparently we can get even more ridiculous.
wtf is forbes smoking?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/11/14/why-the-paris-isis-terrorists-used-ps4-to-plan-attacks/
"An ISIS agent could spell out an attack plan in Super Mario Maker’s coins and share it privately with a friend, or two Call of Duty players could write messages to each other on a wall in a disappearing spray of bullets. "

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 01:26 AM
CIA Director Brennan, whose agency has virtually an unlimited budget, extraordinary powers with little oversight, says the attacks happened because privacy advocates have undermined the ability of spies to monitor terrorists.
Seems like it's a good time to remind people about the studies done by intelligence agencies a year ago on this very topic.
https://fpjintel.com/public-reports/measuring-the-impact-of-the-snowden-leaks-on-the-use-of-encryption-by-online-jihadists/

In short, terrorists have changed very little in response to the Snowden leaks. They were already making heavy use of encryption. They were already heavily suspicious of the NSA's actions that were confirmed in the leaks.

orestes
11-17-2015, 06:14 AM
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2015/11/the_paris_attacks_weren_t_stopped_by_metadata_surv eillance_that_hasn_t_stopped.html?curator=TechREDE F

icklekitty
11-17-2015, 06:30 AM
Please can this not turn into another discussion of the American perspective on religion and politics. I believe a thread already exists for people who want to talk about that.

<<Et c’est pourquoi le Président français ne jure pas sur la Bible quand il entre en fonction? à l’inverse de celui des Etats-Unis. Et c’est pourquoi, ce mardi soir, lors du match de foot Angleterre-France, la Marseillaiseque vont chanter à l’unisson nos «ennemis» préférés, nos charmants cousins anglais que nous adorons taquiner et réciproquement, est un chant révolutionnaire quand les Britanniques claironnent qu’il revient à Dieu de sauver leur Reine. Et c’est pourquoi la démocratie bleu-blanc-rouge ne se soumet ni à la charia, ni à aucune prescription des clergés, ni des fidèles, ni des pasteurs, ni des imams, ni des rabbins.>>

http://www.liberation.fr/france/2015/11/17/c-est-gentil-mais-ne-vous-sentez-pas-oblige-de-prier-pour-paris_1414051

allegro
11-17-2015, 08:56 AM
There is a reason that Americans on a board operating out of the United States are discussing this matter: they are trying to understand it, because they lost over 3,000 people (over 6,000 injured) to terrorism on one day, and they still do not understand the difference between a Sunni or a Shia or why a Muslim would bomb other Muslims in Lebanon or shoot random people in Paris or force people to flee Syria and of course now Americans are afraid that these terrorists are coming for us, again.

And the Paris attacks involved an American band in a city of American allies in an American-led offensive.

And that is why it hits so close to home and why Americans are trying to understand and are discussing it. We have been at war and have lost thousands of troops over terrorism. And the only real change has been more debt and less freedom. Which was probably the terrorists' plan, anyway.

Ultimately, intelligence and spying via data gets us and our allies nowhere; having actual spies (infiltration), informants, etc. is far more helpful; it got us bin Laden (although that did not help much). France and the U.S. were warned of this attack (by Iraq) but now say they get warnings "all the time" and don't take them all seriously. Hmmmm ...

Again, IS has warned that this is just one in a string of attacks. That Russian plane filled with 224 men, women and children was first; the bombings in Beirut last week killing nearly 50 men, women and children was second; Paris was third. They are saying that this headline will be replaced soon.

Perhaps this is our new reality and there is no way to stop this. It seems that the caliphate's prime directive is world domination.

orestes
11-17-2015, 09:48 AM
Yeah, but it's not like Americans have been affected more by terrorism than any other country. London is still standing and look how many attacks it received from the IRA.

icklekitty
11-17-2015, 09:52 AM
And that Hitler fellow.

Also, France don't really like the USA; in fact many are blaming Bush et al for the attacks. At best they're very reluctant allies.

WorzelG
11-17-2015, 10:58 AM
I honestly can't see this leading anywhere other than sending troops to the Middle East to try and destroy the Islamic State

allegro
11-17-2015, 11:35 AM
Yeah, but it's not like Americans have been more affected by terrorism than any other country. London is still standing and look how many attacks it received from the IRA.
Nobody said or even implied that; the United States has not seen terrorism anything like that of the Middle East, North Africa, or South America. And war is not terrorism. Terrorists are not countries.

The U.S. had far more domestic acts of terrorism than most people realize, particularly during the 70s. At one time during the turbulent "Days of Rage," the FBI recorded an average of 40 bombings per week across the U.S.

Here is an article from the Washington Post with "Eight Facts about Terrorism in the United States (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/04/16/eight-facts-about-terrorism-in-the-united-states/)

Just about every part of the United States has been hit by some form of terrorist attack since 1970:
https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/04/terrorist-map.png

allegro
11-17-2015, 11:39 AM
Also, France don't really like the USA; in fact many are blaming Bush et al for the attacks. At best they're very reluctant allies.
It doesn't help that a lot of old Americans don't really like France, either (it's that post WWII thing); and that a lot of Americans are also blaming Bush. Which doesn't really help matters at all. But, Bush didn't cause 9/11; and ISIS is out to destroy Iran, Lebanon, and any other country that inhabits the Shia, which has nothing to do with the West, but is in addition to ISIS' goal of destroying the infidels who hurt their brothers in Syria (or anywhere, for that matter). ISIS is rich with money and youth.

This isn't about how many buildings are left standing. This is about how the economy is affected, how many troops are left, who has the most money and data in the end.

People have died in Russia, Lebanon and France, so far this month. Innocent people. Nitpicking about this shit, or pointing at which country's dead are more important, is stupid. Innocent dead people are all important; and ISIS has warned that more are going to die. That's important.

And nobody seems to know what to do about it.

WorzelG, I don't know how that will help unless we combine forces with Russia but, even then, we don't seem to know exactly where ISIS is and they fight dirty, they masquerade as allies, they aren't wearing uniforms that say 'ISIS' on them, I don't think that sending ground troops (if a bunch of combined countries even have enough to send) will make much of a difference, or if it will make things worse by just making ISIS stronger because they can recruit more members against the infidels.

Khrz
11-17-2015, 11:42 AM
Also, France don't really like the USA

http://i.imgur.com/017mHjz.gif



many are blaming Bush et al for the attacks. At best they're very reluctant allies.

Even americans blame the Bush administration for the current situation. And who do you mean by "France" ? The Hollande Administration ? The French people ?

France isn't a reluctant ally, both nations have different interests, are invested in various degrees, have different response capacities...
At that level, it's not about "liking" anything, it's about common interests, agreeing on goals and endgames and on the means to accomplish those.
"2001 France" disagreed with "2001 USA". "2015 France" and "2015 USA" are very different beasts.

And the French people have nothing against American people. That's an old myth. Our cultural differences are such that we tend to get puzzled by some expectations, reactions or attitudes, but we love the American people.

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 12:28 PM
I sure hope the topics of terrorism, encryption, privacy, and surveillance aren't "US perspectives." shit's global!

If you dislike my US legal and historical anecdotes, I'd invite you to share similar ones from elsewhere.

Exocet
11-17-2015, 01:14 PM
France and England are playing a football match tonight in London. Its being called the most fortified football match in history.
Army, SAS. About 200 police with machine guns, Helicopters. Undercover spies. the most bizzare football match ever.
Must be the first time in about 5000 years, England and France have never cared about beating each other. Lol.

Every other Football match in Europe has been cancelled this week due to terrorism fears...so if this one goes ahead with no problems everyone is a winner.
Its is important to try carry on as normal

aggroculture
11-17-2015, 01:44 PM
Some levity, if we may: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/muslim-man-in-northampton-asked-what-hes-doing-about-isis-20151117103929

slave2thewage
11-17-2015, 02:46 PM
Attempted bombings have been foiled in Germany tonight. Apparently there was an ambulance full of explosives outside an international football match in Hanover and the arena there has also been evacuated.

Archive_Reports
11-17-2015, 02:47 PM
Attempted bombings have been foiled in Germany tonight. Apparently there was an ambulance full of explosives outside an international football match in Hanover and the arena there has also been evacuated.

Do you have a source for the ambulance thing? I saw that as well but then read that it was some sort of luggage.

slave2thewage
11-17-2015, 02:52 PM
Do you have a source for the ambulance thing? I saw that as well but then read that it was some sort of luggage.

Now there's something about "a truck disguised as an ambulance". I dunno. Anyway - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germany-terror-alert-ambulance-packed-6849876?ICID=FB_mirror_main

fillow
11-17-2015, 03:12 PM
Every other Football match in Europe has been cancelled this week due to terrorism fears...

This is an exaggeration. Only two games were actually cancelled (today's friendlies Germany-Netherlands and Belgium-Spain). Plus about a dozen of French Cup matches (out of scheduled 88) were postponed from Nov-14/15 to one week later (21/22). It's not like everyone's trembling in fear for what happens next.

icklekitty
11-17-2015, 04:15 PM
@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) I didn't mean it was about comparing death tolls. For a couple of pages the thread turned from a thread about the Paris attacks to the thread about the CIA and what American intelligence was doing about terrorism and attitudes in America about Islam. @Khrz (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2023) the administrations rather than the people. they both have interests which overlap but @both I didn't like that the attacks was turning into an auxiliary thing about America. But also from my experience France like a lot of Europe/elsewhere don't like being reeled in as sidekicks to the US which shifting the discussion in this thread kind of did.

Like I said there's another thread about ISIS and terrorism in general; I hope the article I posted earlier helps to why it's useful to keep a spotlight on this perspective and why directly transposing one to the other doesn't work.

@fillow (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=348) I agree. Particularly as there generations of people alive who have lived through one domestic war or other, the "fuck you, I'm going to carry on as usual" attitude is strong (example:http://france24.com/en/20151117-france-screw-them-we-have-champagne-charlie-hebdo-response-paris-attacks ). Fear is what these bastards want.


@slave2thewage (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=89) I read earlier about an unattended package at an event in Germany that led to the area being evacuated. Comments were slamming ISIS but from my perspective it's a normal reaction to an unattended package be it this week or last month. Of course security are going to be way more cautious over little things for the moment becaus you wouldn't want to be that guy who overlooked a bomb.

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 04:43 PM
For a couple of pages the thread turned from a thread about the Paris attacks to the thread about the CIA and what American intelligence was doing about terrorism and attitudes in America about Islam. @Khrz (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2023) the administrations rather than the people. they both have interests which overlap but @both I didn't like that the attacks was turning into an auxiliary thing about America. But also from my experience France like a lot of Europe/elsewhere don't like being reeled in as sidekicks to the US which shifting the discussion in this thread kind of did.

Unfortunately, there is a reality that heavily involves the USA when it comes to their surveillance, intel, and most military actions that may result from this. So, the US's actions are going to connect quite heavily into what France does.

We are also posting on a US board, hosted by US people, for a US band. The Paris attack is going to have fallout for the US as well.

France already implemented some extreme surveillance law in response to the Charlie Hedbo shooting (http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/24/9030851/france-surveillance-law-charlie-hebdo-constitutional-court), so it's worth commenting on that in a general sense too.

allegro
11-17-2015, 04:47 PM
icklekitty, the link you posted didn't work and my French really sucks. This thread was created, I assume, because it started in the "General Headlines" thread and was split off when it got pretty big (I was posting when it was in "General Headlines"). I think people should be able, at this point, to discuss whatever they want because they are in shock, mad, scared, need more information, etc. and this is organic and is kind of developing with people's emotions and because Khrz's brother was just killed and everything just changed a lot as of a few days ago. Telling people what or what not to discuss at this point and splitting things off into that other conspiracy thread seems goofy, especially since, if the IS warnings are correct, this thread will be replaced by the next "_____ hit by IS terrorists" thread. Maybe. If anybody cares. Yes, I think maybe DigitalChaos' own obsession with privacy and Snowden at this point seems callous when Khrz' brother lost his life, not his privacy, and the worst that happened to Snowden was that he violated the terms of his Contract, but DigitalChaos is always drifting threads with his own agenda and has the online version of Libertarian Tourette's with lack of human emotion toward the people killed and the rest of this discussion should not be shut down like a Kindergarten class because of one guy?

No, I agree, we should not live in fear ... of terrorists or of our own respective governments or guns (something that kills us Americans every single day). We shouldn't turn into Chicken Little, nor should we be too concerned about what any U.S. political candidate is spewing right now. But, human emotion is a weird thing, and fear is pretty hard to suppress, which is why those people in Paris suddenly panicked the other day and started running for absolutely no reason whatsoever. And it's probably going to be that way for a while.

I remember back in the 80s, when a guy went into a McDonald's a mowed down a bunch of people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre). And for a very long time, any time I went into a McDonald's and ate lunch during my break at work, I'd scope out an exit plan. Just in case. Not that it mattered or I'd stand a chance. NSFW (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kaUDyYtupak/UCj9DLpQbcI/AAAAAAAAG0U/Az2KL04HtCw/s1600/1984san-ysidro-massacre.jpg). And I wonder now about those people in Paris and if they can go back to the Bataclan for a concert, or anywhere for a concert, now or for a very long time. Or to dinner or drinks with friends on a Friday night. Something so simple that we take for granted, then it is stolen when something so scary happens like this. Something so scary that happens in the U.S. about once a week because we have a lot of guns and crazy people, but that does not make us hardened to fear, and we feel that fear for the people in Paris.

Exocet
11-17-2015, 05:03 PM
This is an exaggeration. Only two games were actually cancelled (today's friendlies Germany-Netherlands and Belgium-Spain). Plus about a dozen of French Cup matches (out of scheduled 88) were postponed from Nov-14/15 to one week later (21/22). It's not like everyone's trembling in fear for what happens next.

No, but the threat level is extraordinarily high. And you cant ignore it...when on your way to work you see 30 policemen with Machine Guns....Maybe not same in Belarus, but Western Europe, specifically in major cities of countries who have launched strikes against Isis in Iraq and Syria, e.g only....U.K and France. (Russia has its own way of doing things)
I dont follow football at at all, i didnt know there were other games on, other than the ones which had been cancelled. Only followed this game because it is so much more than a football match..

Either way is was a massive success and a fuck you to isis.

icklekitty
11-17-2015, 05:09 PM
allegro
Was it all because of one guy? It didn't read like that when I logged on this morning but if it was basically everyone trying to calm down one guy then fine. I guess this got split out of general because it was its own defined topic (Paris).

I didn't say the whole discussion should be shut down just the Paris story isn't over and I also wasnt telling people what to do. I asked, because I could see it heading towards "something happened in Paris, now what does it mean for America"? A lot of the forum is America-centric (understandably, most here are) so it's rare to have a space for other stuff without drawing focus back to the US. Also this doesn't mean that US members can't speak. It's not a binary situation.

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 05:10 PM
Former ISIS hostage, French reporter tortured for 10 months: They *want* us to retaliate
http://boingboing.net/2015/11/17/former-isis-hostage-they-want.html

allegro
11-17-2015, 05:16 PM
allegro
Was it all because of one guy? It didn't read like that when I logged on this morning but if it was basically everyone trying to calm down one guy then fine. I guess this got split out of general because it was its own defined topic (Paris).

I didn't say the whole discussion should be shut down just the Paris story isn't over and I also wasnt telling people what to do. I asked, because I could see it heading towards "something happened in Paris, now what does it mean for America"? A lot of the forum is America-centric (understandably, most here are) so it's rare to have a space for other stuff without drawing focus back to the US. Also this doesn't mean that US members can't speak. It's not a binary situation.
This thread has changed a lot because of emotion in the first few days. One guy made what he thought was a terrible comment about Islam (although we thought it was just an ignorant comment and not all that terrible) and he apologized a lot and made about 30 apologetic posts :p and it all defused and he was luv-listed, and that grew into a discussion about Islam and Muslims because of that misunderstanding, which was fine by everybody else; then orestes posted something about the possibility of IS using Playstation 4s to communicate, to which Mr. Libertarian of course responded with comments about you-know-what; and then suddenly this seemed to turn into this is only for French people or at least people who can speak French or at least people who are close enough to drive to France, and the French hate Americans, anyway which was rebutted by a French guy. So, yeah, I don't think you read the whole thing on your phone? :p

icklekitty
11-17-2015, 05:18 PM
Then suddenly this seemed to turn into this is only for French people or at least people who can speak French or at least people who are close enough to drive to France, and the French hate Americans, anyway which was rebutted by a French guy. So, yeah, I don't think you read the whole thing on your phone? :p

"Please can this not turn into another discussion on the American perspective" doesn't mean "this is only for French people..." Just as "don't really like" doesn't mean "hate"... also you realise driving from London to Paris takes about a day? ;)

i only my made the posts this evening on my phone. You can tell by my awesome typing and editing skills tonight.


And I wonder now about those people in Paris and if they can go back to the Bataclan for a concert, or anywhere for a concert, now or for a very long time. Or to dinner or drinks with friends on a Friday night. Something so simple that we take for granted, then it is stolen when something so scary happens like this. Something so scary that happens in the U.S. about once a week because we have a lot of guns and crazy people, but that does not make us hardened to fear, and we feel that fear for the people in Paris.

tonight there is an initiative in Paris to get as many people out in bars and restaurants as possible to show support for local businesses and communities. 7/7 hit during the NIN tour and we all got on the tube the next day to go to the gig (and were evacuated 4 days later, and got back on again). The Eurostar is running, albeit with extra checks. Charlie Hebdo published as usual the following week. Maybe it's a prolonged exposure to war, occupation, and terrorism but there's more of a "fuck you, I won't let you win". Not that there's zero fear.

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN0T624O20151117?irpc=932. (English link this time ;p)

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 05:19 PM
Yeah, if this thread was intended to be for Khrz, whoever split the thread did a shit job. I thought Khrz made it pretty clear he came back to ETS for what ETS is. Now you all are making shit weird. but whatever

allegro
11-17-2015, 05:25 PM
Yeah, if this thread was intended to be for Khrz, whoever split the thread did a shit job. I thought Khrz made it pretty clear he came back to ETS for what ETS is. Now you all are making shit weird. but whatever

No, this thread was split before we knew about Khrz's brother. Wayyyyy before.

We started discussing things when there were 40 dead, then suddenly there were hostages at the Bataclan, then there were people shot at the mall, look at the thread, it was split at about the 5th post. Then I realized that we had not heard from Khrz and he must have seen the mention and he responded that he was okay, but he and his family was looking for his brother, etc.

allegro
11-17-2015, 05:34 PM
"Please can this not turn into another discussion on the American perspective" doesn't mean "this is only for French people..." Just as "don't really like" doesn't mean "hate"... also you realise driving from London to Paris takes about a day? ;)

i only my made the posts this evening on my phone. You can tell by my awesome typing and editing skills tonight.



tonight there is an initiative in Paris to get as many people out in bars and restaurants as possible to show support for local businesses and communities. 7/7 hit during the NIN tour and we all got on the tube the next day to go to the gig (and were evacuated 4 days later, and got back on again). The Eurostar is running, albeit with extra checks. Charlie Hebdo published as usual the following week. Maybe it's a prolonged exposure to war, occupation, and terrorism but there's more of a "fuck you, I won't let you win". Not that there's zero fear.

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN0T624O20151117?irpc=932. (English link this time ;p)

I saw a few people on CNN on Sunday who said they have been inside the Bataclan and had been held hostage, one guy had hid inside a little room upstairs with several injured people for over 3 hours with the lights off; he said that he was hoping to someday return to the Bataclan for a concert, but it might be hard for him, but he wanted to try. Another kid, Australian, who was 12, had to lie on the floor next to a dead body for over an hour and he didn't know where his dad was, and he had to pretend he was dead. He still couldn't totally speak without being obviously traumatized. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. When you are right there, or you are in that area, or when one of your family members die, you don't just go "hey, fuck it, let's go get drunk! yeah!!!!"

Hell, I had a hard time enjoying dinner that Friday night thinking about those same people in Paris getting mowed down in a trendy neighborhood while I'm in a trendy area drinking wine and Khrz didn't know where his brother was.

No, we don't have "terrorists" like you do, but we have random gunmen carrying legal semi-automatic assault weapons entering movie theaters, colleges, churches, etc., and we aren't so callous that we act like we carry on like nothing is every going to happen again like we just livin' in the Wild Wild West, ain't nothing but a thang. That doesn't mean that businesses should suffer, no. But, that fear isn't something that people can make go away. Yes, we can SAY that "the terrorists (or thugs or gang members or crazy people with assault weapons or whatever) 'win' if we are scared" but that's really easy to say.

It takes 2 days to drive from NYC to California. :p

But, we can't drive to France at all.

DigitalChaos
11-17-2015, 05:45 PM
Looks like the terrorists initiated the attack over unencrypted SMS, if my auto translate is correct.
http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/171115/le-sms-dun-kamikaze-du-bataclan-intrigue-les-enqueteurs

icklekitty
11-17-2015, 05:52 PM
If you are an eyewitness it's a different story (I didn't realise that's what you meant by "those people in Paris") in terms of spirit of the community it's one of solidarity/strength. I know a few people who were in the room and escaped who seem..."fine" isn't the right word but they're functional. People who saw stuff happen might experience something closer to ptsd. A lot of stuff was closed due to the national mourning period so tonight is a good time for the rest of the community to do their "fuck you" - which doesn't necessarily involve getting drunk

Also I don't know how to drive :)

allegro
11-17-2015, 05:53 PM
We have a friend who was shot teaching a class at Northern Illinois University (http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1714069,00.html). He is still a professor. He hates guns. A lot of those kids never returned to class. The University tore down that building.

slave2thewage
11-17-2015, 06:00 PM
people who can speak French
Hey, not our fault you American cousins never bothered to learn to read in la langue de l'amour.

*files nails*

Also, they attacked Paris and Germany. Why must they hurt the places I love so much?

allegro
11-17-2015, 06:02 PM
Hey, not our fault you American cousins never bothered to learn to read in la langue de l'amour.
Hey, I took 4 years of Spanish, our country's second language. :p

G and I have vowed to take French lessons at a small nearby French language school when we retire.

So far, my French is mostly related to food and clothing.

jessamineny
11-17-2015, 06:12 PM
It takes 2 days to drive from NYC to California. :p


If you don't stop. :P

It's quicker/shorter to drive from London to Paris than it is to drive across New York state.

icklekitty
11-17-2015, 06:14 PM
It doesn't have to be in French to be about France!

I wonder if ISIS's geography is as bad as their history? They claimed to attack Paris for being a hub of debauchery and whatnot (what is this, the 20s?) and they seem to have bypassed all the major cities to hit Germany in....Hanover. Um, ice burn...

slave2thewage
11-17-2015, 06:20 PM
they seem to have bypassed all the major cities to hit Germany in....Hanover. Um, ice burn...
Well, Merkel and a bunch of other government heads were meant to be there. Either that or ISIS just REALLY hates the German national team.

allegro
11-17-2015, 06:26 PM
I wonder if ISIS's geography is as bad as their history? They claimed to attack Paris for being a hub of debauchery and whatnot
Maybe they thought they were in the French Quarter of NOLA.

miss k bee
11-17-2015, 06:50 PM
No explosives found in Hannover

http://www.dw.com/en/germany-on-high-alert-after-bomb-scare-at-hannover-football-stadium/a-18856818

elevenism
11-17-2015, 11:43 PM
@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) , once again, i am Chicken Little.

I'm not exactly "trembling with fear," but i am nervously waiting for the other shoe to fall.
I wish you could gently tell me everything is going to be okay like you did when i was afraid we would go to war with Russia, but i don't think you can at this point.

I am sickened that this issue has dovetailed with immigration and gun control in the US.
People will politicize ANYTHING.

Another thing that bothers me about this is that WE helped to CREATED ISIS, just like we bankrolled and funded Bin Laden's organization.
Our insanely strong ties with Saudi Arabia make the US inherently anti Shiite, and there is strong evidence that Saudi Arabia bankrolled IS and that "moderate rebels" trained by US forces to combat Assad became IS fighters.

When will we ever learn? We fund and arm and trained these people to combat our enemies in proxy wars and are then surprised when they turn on us, even though this shit has been going on since at LEAST the seventies.

BTW, i got tears in my eyes watching those French military jets take off to go bomb the shit out of Raqa (or however you spell it,) I'm normally a pacifist, but in this case, it's like "go, fight, bomb these motherfuckers back to the stone age"

R-Dot-Yung
11-17-2015, 11:45 PM
So I live in NYC and I've had three different people tell me something to the effect of "avoid the subways cause ISIS is coming" and yet I can find nothing on the internet about it. First off, I'm riding the god damn subway, second off, this is like real live AOL/Facebook chainmail.

"My friends dads friend who works at the fbi told him to tell his sister"





"Careful with the subways this week you guys, I'm hearing a lot of things"



Fuck you ISIS I don't have time for this shit.

Frozen Beach
11-18-2015, 12:56 AM
Something going down at an apartment in Paris right now.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34853657 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34853657)

BenAkenobi
11-18-2015, 05:21 AM
I try not to think too much into these events, but when i do all i get is questions upon questions - all trivial and absurd at the same time.

How bad should life become for people to join radical extremist organizations? Specifically, how killing foreigners is supposed to help those men and women and their homeland(s)? And why don't those sponsoring the attacks (not cheap thing at all) try to sponsor something creative and not destructive?

Dressing all this up in religion is so stupid as well, because for ages church was a place of union, moral support, learning and cultural development. At the same time, religion is usually deemed one of private things and one of basic freedoms... World, have some decency. Is it too much to ask for?

icklekitty
11-18-2015, 06:04 AM
It's not even a question of foreigners; many of them were nationals. The passports were fakes.


Something going down at an apartment in Paris right now.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34853657 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34853657)




Two killed, 7 arrested. Police dog also killed http://m.france24.com/en/breaking/20151118-police-raid-near-paris-ends-with-least-two-killed-seven-arrested

Khrz
11-18-2015, 08:37 AM
Why do these fucking idiots just hang out in the same city they terrorized only days earlier?

I can't really pretend to have an answer to that, but I think that if you play your cards well it's way safer than going on the move, the way things are right now. The lockdown took some time to be effective, but by now it might be rock solid.
They were in a place known for it's drug deals (so people aren't really fazed by new people coming and going), largely populated by french people of immigrant origin (so they could hide in the crowd without being too noticeable) and in an apartment complex largely constituted of squats (thus nobody would wonder what the hell those guys were doing here).
There are a lot of other places to hide in France, but to meet those same requirements they would have had to cross the country, or end up hiding in places where they would have caught the attention of the locals, one way or the other.

DigitalChaos
11-18-2015, 11:40 AM
Interesting info about the suspected "strategist" behind both the Paris attack and the failed Belgium attack.

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/18/signs-point-to-unencrypted-communications-between-terror-suspects/

They raided the safe house based on an unencrypted cell phone that was thrown in the trash outside the Bataclan. They've known about this guy for a while and were surveilling him and his contacts. Yet, it seems a lot of the communications were done over unencrypted SMS and he is hiding out in europe. This is the same idiot who lost his phone in Syria and had it land in the govt's hands.

thevoid99
11-18-2015, 03:44 PM
5 Syrians tried to get to the U.S. using Greek passports but.... they were detained in my parents home country of Honduras: http://news.yahoo.com/honduras-detains-five-syrians-heading-u-stolen-greek-195108906.html

They arrived on Costa Rica and were trying to go through Honduras and then to Guatemala and so forth. Trying to fool Hondurans. Tsk, tsk, tsk.... those jabronies just landed at the wrong fucking place. Fuck you ISIS.

Exocet
11-18-2015, 11:48 PM
France is under attack at the moment...its extremely vulnerable... and there are a lot of crazy people who want to kill its people...its the right thing to do...the mastermind of the attacks has still not been caught neither has the bomb maker.
Coming from Britain a well protected island the whole idea of free movement without I.D seems fucking crazy...i cannot believe its taken the French Government this long to implement the changes.

But mostly....The biggest problem in Europe right now is Germany...we need a strong Germany...it has the biggest population and the biggest economy, it is literally the heart of Europe, and it is so weak at the moment , its just so fucking passive and naive... Germany needs to get a strong military sorted.....simple as...Its just sitting there waiting for other people....mostly the United States to sort out the problems that are facing our continent....
Britain needs a strong Germany. France needs a strong Germany...the whole Syrian refugee crisis has highlighted how feeble Europe is at the moment...something has to change...and we cant keep relying on the United States...we dont want to drag you into this... we need your support...but there needs to be a more unified European hard response to this it should not be your problem... in the same way the Ukraine crisis should not have been your problem...we always need your support though...definetly , but the biggest country is useless... its hard..and there is no sort of unification.
Im totally pro European Union..but its deeply flawed. Its needs a reformation...
France needs help, Germany could be such a fierce ally. Its needs a new government and a strong millitary...it could be so strong.
its just so useless.

DigitalChaos
11-19-2015, 12:05 AM
"mastermind" fuck that. The media is using that term as if to glorify him. A half-baked sloppy coordinator (maybe strategist) and a complete piece of shit is about all he is.

Exocet
11-19-2015, 12:46 AM
"mastermind" fuck that. The media is using that term as if to glorify him. A half-baked sloppy coordinator (maybe strategist) and a complete piece of shit is about all he is.

129 people were killed the other day...228 were killed on a Russian Plane....41 people in Lebannon this is not a joke...people have a right to take this seriously...

DigitalChaos
11-19-2015, 12:58 AM
Oh fucking bullshit...129 people were killed the other day...228 were killed on a Russian Plane....41 people in Lebannon this is not a joke...people have a right to take this seriously...

Taking it seriously in no way requires you to glorify and lionize this person. "Mastermind" implies they are highly intelligent and talented. His history says otherwise but that's exactly how he thinks of himself based on the interviews he has given. Fuck that. Fuck him.

Exocet
11-19-2015, 01:12 AM
Taking it seriously in no way requires you to glorify and lionize this person. "Mastermind" implies they are highly intelligent and talented. His history says otherwise but that's exactly how he thinks of himself based on the interviews he has given. Fuck that. Fuck him.

As if if i would glorify that piece of shit, i dont glorify him at all....your putting words in my mouth...what the fuck is wrong with you

DigitalChaos
11-19-2015, 01:45 AM
your putting words in my mouth...what the fuck is wrong with you
Now you are just being ridiculous. Your exact words:


... the mastermind of the attacks ...

The dictionary:



mastermind

a person with an outstanding intellect.
synonyms: genius, mind, intellect, author, architect, organizer, originator, prime mover, initiator, inventor;

someone who plans and directs an ingenious and complex scheme or enterprise.


"mastermind" is loaded with positive connotations. the person who did this deserves no such thing.

DigitalChaos
11-19-2015, 01:57 AM
Well, like I said. My issue is with the media running with that word. It's not specific to you.
It's like when there is a spree shooter and the media covers the story by making the shooter famous... that doesn't help anyone.

the image of the terrorists is a big part of what they are concerned with. It's also why there is now a big push to start calling them Daesh instead of ISIS, it hurts their image: https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/09/words-matter-isis-war-use-daesh/V85GYEuasEEJgrUun0dMUP/story.html

Exocet
11-19-2015, 02:07 AM
Oh my god..its just a word...they are all subhuman pieces of shit....everyone knows that...mastermind means the person who planned the attack....nobody in their right mind gives them any special credit...

Hazekiah
11-19-2015, 02:07 AM
But mostly....The biggest problem in Europe right now is Germany...its just so fucking passive and naive... Germany needs to get a strong military sorted....

Gotta say, even half-a-century later, well...that was STILL kinda jarring to read.

o_O

Exocet
11-19-2015, 02:27 AM
Gotta say, even half-a-century later, well...that was STILL kinda jarring to read.

o_O

Germany killed 30 Million Russians...even the Russians are confident in Germany today and have been for many years.

Its not the same country at all...its 70 fucking years later.....Germany is such a strong country...at the moment it is ridiculous..

DigitalChaos
11-19-2015, 02:32 AM
"I won't give you the gift of hating you"
"I will insult you with my happiness"

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnews/videos/10153213901157217/

icklekitty
11-19-2015, 05:12 AM
Taking it seriously in no way requires you to glorify and lionize this person. "Mastermind" implies they are highly intelligent and talented. His history says otherwise but that's exactly how he thinks of himself based on the interviews he has given. Fuck that. Fuck him.

I agree - let's not use any language that pays him any compliments.

fillow
11-19-2015, 05:25 AM
mastermind ‎(plural masterminds)
Noun
1. A person with an extraordinary intellect or skill that is markedly superior to his or her peers.  
2. A person responsible for the highest level of planning and execution of a major operation.

Can't see how #2 doesn't apply. Everyone chill, no-one's gives complements here.

Frozen Beach
11-19-2015, 09:18 AM
I don't really see how mastermind could necessarily be construed as being a positive thing. I've mostly heard it used when referring to bad people, and have rarely heard it used in a positive light.

allegro
11-19-2015, 10:59 AM
I don't really see how mastermind could necessarily be construed as being a positive thing. I've mostly heard it used when referring to bad people, and have rarely heard it used in a positive light.

Anyway, he's dead (http://news.yahoo.com/french-leader-extremists-may-strike-chemical-bio-arms-101639888.html).

allegro
11-19-2015, 11:57 AM
"I won't give you the gift of hating you"
"I will insult you with my happiness"

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnews/videos/10153213901157217/

That is so powerful and awesome.

DigitalChaos
11-19-2015, 01:05 PM
That is so powerful and awesome.
I gotta say, I look up to this guy a lot. I can't imagine the power it took to suppress every emotional instinct of rage/hate/revenge/etc. Yet, in doing so, he inflicted the most damage he could.

Sutekh
11-22-2015, 08:08 AM
Germany killed 30 Million Russians...even the Russians are confident in Germany today and have been for many years.

Its not the same country at all...its 70 fucking years later.....Germany is such a strong country...at the moment it is ridiculous..

russia isnt at ease about germany, this is why germany has no nuclear weapons. neither west or east is comfortable with a fully rearmed germany. I feel like we would be better off if germany had the nukes rather than britain, butbinhave a sneaking suspicion i could be wrong

DigitalChaos
11-22-2015, 01:48 PM
This article has some interesting info about what happened from the victim's perspective that I haven't seen before. The hour long conversation between hostage and terrorist that started with humor. The sound of cellphones going off on the bodies. The police commissioner going in before special forces could, and taking out one of the shooters. Fuck.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/abf1356f6b9743518a302da14fbf44eb/horror-panic-heroism-bataclan-nexus-paris-attacks

Hazekiah
11-22-2015, 04:11 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/eagles-of-death-metal-jesse-hughes-speaks-paris-attacks-video-163518181.html#

allegro
11-22-2015, 10:41 PM
Sam Yagan, son of Syrian immigrants, founder of SparkNotes, OKCupid, CEO of Match, wants people to have compassion toward Syrians (http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1113335/sunday-sitdown-sam-yagan-match-com-boss-son-syrian-immigrants).

(Steve Jobs' biological father is a Syrian political refugee. (http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/who-is-steve-jobs-syrian-immigrant-father-abdul-fattah-jandali-3624958/))

elevenism
11-23-2015, 09:06 AM
"I won't give you the gift of hating you"
"I will insult you with my happiness"

https://www.facebook.com/bbcnews/videos/10153213901157217/
that shit came on the cbsn streaming channel and it made me CRY. not just tear up, but seriously cry.

Volband
11-25-2015, 02:38 AM
russia isnt at ease about germany, this is why germany has no nuclear weapons. neither west or east is comfortable with a fully rearmed germany. I feel like we would be better off if germany had the nukes rather than britain, butbinhave a sneaking suspicion i could be wrong
70 years is nothing in history, so I don't understand that sentiment. Germany (and the names she was known before that) has always been a very strong country/kingdom. Obviously some of the "whys" changed throughout the 100s of years, but it is beyond doubt, that she could become a super-power once again, if the others would let her.

Despite all of that, I don't think WW2 has much to do with Germany being weak on a military side. Even without nukes she could have a proper fucking army ready to bomb the shit out of someone if needed to be - or strong leaders. I don't see how it would oppose anyone's goals if one of the strongest country in Europe could actually do something to defend her (or her allies) rights.

Though, even if Germany was strong, I doubt much would change in the current situation. No one will eradicate ISIS, these attacks will never stop. I read someone using the word entangled, and it's a really fitting word to this situation. There are so much bullshit behind the scenes, that everything that's happening now is just to please the people. The people of France can be happy for now, that their country totally bombed some targets in Syria. Amazing, but it doesn't matter in the long run. What happened in Paris will happen again, and again and again - as history already proved it.

I'm not worried, because I will never get assaulted by terrorists in my country, no one gives a fuck about Eastern-Europe, and the chances of me being in danger on the very few days/year when I'm actually abroad are extremely slim. It's just sad, that certain motives deny us to completely eradicate these terrorists. We are partially to be blamed though. Back in the day, no one cared that two Japanese cities were basically erased with mainly civilian casualties, just to end the war faster, but now no one even allowed to do collateral damage to battle these madmen. It's funny though, civilians dying as collateral damage is frowned upon, yet people are so vocal against immigrants who seek shelter.

As you can see, it annoys me quite a bit, and I can't even fathom how would I feel if I actually lived in Western-Europe, and having to witness this circus the governments are trying to force down my throat to shut me up.

Archive_Reports
11-25-2015, 02:31 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n74HBrrFnIc

I guess this goes here.

orestes
11-26-2015, 12:30 PM
Oof, that was really hard to watch.

Swykk
11-26-2015, 12:39 PM
I made the mistake of watching it at work yesterday afternoon. Luckily no one came by because there was no "I've got something in my eyes" bullshit I could've covered my reaction with.

marodi
11-26-2015, 01:00 PM
Those guys are victims too; I hope they are getting help because they've been through hell. Jesse seems a wreck.

I really hope musicians will take up their offer to cover that song. I'm going to buy every single cover being done. I wish TR would do it; his fanbase alone would jump on it.

I would suggest creating a thread in the music forums to keep track of the covers, if any, so that anyone who wants to buy them would get the chance to do it.

Exocet
11-26-2015, 04:40 PM
russia isnt at ease about germany, this is why germany has no nuclear weapons. neither west or east is comfortable with a fully rearmed germany. I feel like we would be better off if germany had the nukes rather than britain, butbinhave a sneaking suspicion i could be wrong

When i mean Russia is okay with Germany i mean Vladmir Putin and former German PM Gerard Schroder were like best friends...people told them to tone down their friendship as it looked unprofressional...As Russia is a corrupt mafia state at the moment basically run by a dictator of course they are not going to give any logical reasonable response, but russia has fuck all to do with this, NATO countries should start supporting an armed Germany. I Cant understand why France, Britain or the United States would not be okay with a armed and Nuclear Germany in 2015.
Also i think its vital Britain and France hang on to their nukes. As a last of the last resort type deterrence, its about independence.
I still stand by the fact we need a stronger Germany and harder more unified European response.
The Syrian Crisis has after 5 long years finally spilled into Europe...its now our problem and nobody in Europe has any fucking idea how to deal with it.
Something is wrong

Dra508
11-30-2015, 03:16 PM
I really hope musicians will take up their offer to cover that song. I'm going to buy every single cover being done. I wish TR would do it; his fanbase alone would jump on it.

I would suggest creating a thread in the music forums to keep track of the covers, if any, so that anyone who wants to buy them would get the chance to do it.
https://youtu.be/FasWxkMIGq8

I agree.

DigitalChaos
12-06-2015, 04:41 PM
France is proposing a ban on free wifi and tor.... wtf
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/after-paris-attacks-proposed-french-law-would-block-tor-and-forbid-free-wi-fi

Jinsai
12-06-2015, 04:49 PM
France is proposing a ban on free wifi and tor.... wtf

Well, isn't the whole idea that it would be impossible to "ban" Tor? If we COULD ban it wouldn't we as well, considering how much insane shit is apparently going on in the "deep web?"

DigitalChaos
12-06-2015, 06:02 PM
Well, isn't the whole idea that it would be impossible to "ban" Tor? If we COULD ban it wouldn't we as well, considering how much insane shit is apparently going on in the "deep web?"
Yes. Tor is built to circumvent censorship. Many countries have spent huge amounts of money trying. They have all failed. The fact that the leaders WANT to shows a cowardice in compromising the principles of freedom of speech and privacy. The number of people around the world who currently think infringing on on both of those in the name of false security is just plain sad. We've had this debate constantly in the post 9/11 world and it seems like many have forgotten.


it's also worth mentioning that the terrorists in this attack didn't use encryption, anonymizing tech, etc. They used easy to intercept/monitor technology. Not that the answer would matter either way for this topic, but their proposals don't even try to align under the topic they are using to justify it.

allegro
12-06-2015, 06:16 PM
I made the mistake of watching it at work yesterday afternoon. Luckily no one came by because there was no "I've got something in my eyes" bullshit I could've covered my reaction with.
That made me really cry, as well. I hope ALL of the survivors of get some therapy because that is some serious PTSD shit.

elevenism
12-06-2015, 06:49 PM
Yes. Tor is built to circumvent censorship. Many countries have spent huge amounts of money trying. They have all failed. The fact that the leaders WANT to shows a cowardice in compromising the principles of freedom of speech and privacy. The number of people around the world who currently think infringing on on both of those in the name of false security is just plain sad. We've had this debate constantly in the post 9/11 world and it seems like many have forgotten.


it's also worth mentioning that the terrorists in this attack didn't use encryption, anonymizing tech, etc. They used easy to intercept/monitor technology. Not that the answer would matter either way for this topic, but their proposals don't even try to align under the topic they are using to justify it.

I would go so far as to say that the government doesn't WANT to ban Tor, because they're already there.
Why wouldn't they be there? I would imagine that some of the best hackers in the world are on gvmt payrolls.
I feel pretty strongly that they want people to THINK that they aren't being monitored.

So basically, as far as all the insane shit that they could potentially stop, well, these are cold men. They are willing to let SOME terrible shit happen in the interest of stopping shit they consider WORSE. And as much as i hate to say it, maybe those are the kind of men we need in charge. Who can tell?

DigitalChaos
12-07-2015, 12:33 PM
I would go so far as to say that the government doesn't WANT to ban Tor, because they're already there.
Why wouldn't they be there? I would imagine that some of the best hackers in the world are on gvmt payrolls.
I feel pretty strongly that they want people to THINK that they aren't being monitored.

So basically, as far as all the insane shit that they could potentially stop, well, these are cold men. They are willing to let SOME terrible shit happen in the interest of stopping shit they consider WORSE. And as much as i hate to say it, maybe those are the kind of men we need in charge. Who can tell?

nah. Places like Iran and China want to STOP the use of Tor, they've spent tons of money trying to do so, but they can't. The US has certainly been trying to see inside Tor communications, and they have done so partially but nowhere near enough to fulfill their need of dragnet surveillance. The Snowden dumps confirm this. The way to deal with Tor is to bypass it-- targeted hacking of a computer. Currently, that requires more resources and for them to do more traditional investigation to build enough evidence to target someone. That's the way it should be! (preferably while getting a warrant for it, but that doesn't seem to be happening in most cases).

DigitalChaos
12-11-2015, 04:36 PM
Gun linked to Paris attacks traced back to Florida arms dealer implicated in Iran-Contra scandal
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/gun-linked-to-paris-attacks-traced-back-to-florida-arms-dealer-implicated-in-iran-contra-scandal/

the fuck?? it's a fucking AK, most common gun in the world. Why the hell did they require such a round about way of sourcing it?

This is really weird.

Khrz
12-29-2015, 09:25 AM
That made me really cry, as well. I hope ALL of the survivors of get some therapy because that is some serious PTSD shit.

Survivors are seeing specialists, and families of the victims get three sessions for a psych eval if they wish.
So far the government has covered all their bases when it comes to taking care of the victims and their families. They are extremely thorough and diligent.
It's all in their best interest really, but not having to deal with red tape bullshit and slow administration was a fucking relief in those circumstances.