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playwithfire
08-10-2015, 07:41 PM
Welcome! This is a space for discussing and promoting awareness of issues pertaining to feminism

Why feminism? EverydayFeminism (imho) nails addressing why feminism matters here (http://everydayfeminism.com/about-ef/our-vision/). There are also a ton of great introductory articles for anyone looking to learn more!

Let's start with something fun:

This is glorious.

Women are live-tweeting their periods at Donald Trump. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/women-are-livetweeting-their-periods-at-donald-trump-to-prove-menstruation-cant-be-used-against-women-as-an-insult-10448931.html)

Cat Mom
08-10-2015, 09:34 PM
Let's start with something fun:

This is glorious.

Women are live-tweeting their periods at Donald Trump. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/women-are-livetweeting-their-periods-at-donald-trump-to-prove-menstruation-cant-be-used-against-women-as-an-insult-10448931.html)


LOL, that's friggin' hilarious. And awesome.

Cat Mom
08-10-2015, 09:48 PM
I just love this interview with Gloria Steinem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njOFwIpdq7I

playwithfire
08-10-2015, 09:53 PM
SHE'S EIGHTY!? Those genes.

Steinem is a fucking icon and this interview is fucking amazing. So, so good.

That said, seeing she was a part of the letter speaking out against Amnesty International's proposal to decriminalize sex work hurt. Precisely because I do look up to her so much. Just a continued lesson in truly great people still being wrong sometimes.

Cat Mom
08-10-2015, 10:00 PM
Yes, but her reasons behind that are very good reasons from the feminist perspective, considering the abuse involved in a lot of the sex trade, particularly women and girls who are forced into the situation due to abject poverty or were born into the system. She has written some very good essays on the topic. Here is a good article about that (http://feministcurrent.com/4814/gloria-steinem-supports-the-nordic-model/), and about this article promoting the Nordic system (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3287212.ece). That letter was against the decriminalization of the entire sex trade, including pimps and johns (http://catwinternational.org/Content/Images/Article/617/attachment.pdf); Steinem prefer decriminalizing the prostitutes, only (Nordic system).

I thought this is a very good article (http://feministcurrent.com/7143/there-is-no-feminist-war-on-sex-workers/).

Timinator
08-10-2015, 11:32 PM
I met Gloria Steinem around 2008. She was very cool. She's a family friend to a couple who we're friends with, and Steinem participated in the ceremony of their wedding in upstate New York.

In other news, a shit story: I left a job at a software company back in April at which I worked with one main client (another large company that used our software). I'd worked with many people at that client company for several years and had a good working relationship. When I left, a woman was hired to take my place; she started working with the same people at that client company. And one of them, a couple of months in, thought it would be a good idea to sexually harass the woman who filled my position.

The IT world is a male-dominated one, but I was still shocked and revolted when I heard this. I was earning a living, developing professional relationships, enjoying a really good job, but as soon as a woman took it over some fuckhead comes on to her. I've been replaying all my interactions with the perpetrator, looking in hindsight for behaviours that were inappropriate, that I could have called him on, when I was working there. And I can't remember any. It's like there was just a switch that went off in his head that told him, "She's a woman, so this is now an appropriate way to act."

playwithfire
08-11-2015, 05:28 AM
Jesus, that's disconcerting.



Yes, but her reasons behind that are very good reasons from the feminist perspective, considering the abuse involved in a lot of the sex trade, particularly women and girls who are forced into the situation due to abject poverty or were born into the system. She has written some very good essays on the topic. Here is a good article about that (http://feministcurrent.com/4814/gloria-steinem-supports-the-nordic-model/), and about this article promoting the Nordic system (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3287212.ece). That letter was against the decriminalization of the entire sex trade, including pimps and johns (http://catwinternational.org/Content/Images/Article/617/attachment.pdf); Steinem prefer decriminalizing the prostitutes, only (Nordic system).

I thought this is a very good article (http://feministcurrent.com/7143/there-is-no-feminist-war-on-sex-workers/).

Thanks for the links!

I think this is a thing where a lot of feminists' viewpoints split. I don't think it's a morality thing (though I think it is for some). I think that some feminists view the mainstream sex industry (including porn and the like) as bad for women (to MASSIVELY oversimplify), and that some of us are pro-consensual sex work. I think sex work between content and consenting adults is just fine. I sincerely think it can be a good thing. I think porn is often great. Obviously there are a ton of layers to that, but I just completely disagree that decriminalizing sex work (in the United States especially) will cause more harm to women, and I'm listening to the voices of sex workers. We need legislate to protect sex workers, but criminalizing what they do (criminalizing their customers or places of work) isn't the way to do that. Reading Steinem's thoughts on it was great.

I think the route to take here isn't to criminalize brothels or buying sex or anything like that, I think it's to *legalize* and create laws to *protect* sex workers. I'm quoting here, but: Criminalize slavery and abuse in all industries. Decriminalize sex work. Trafficking is a problem across many industries.

Reading that letter, clearly people's hearts are in the right place. I think this is a situation where everyone has good intentions, but I disagree, and I've been listening to the sex workers. I hear the argument of "Which sex workers am I listening to?" but a ton of sex workers have been speaking out about this. (https://twitter.com/hashtag/sexworkers) I do know there are a lot of oppressed voices that don't have access to Twitter.

Content warning for sexual assault: Amnesty International And The Decriminalization Of Consenting Sex Work (http://www.ravishly.com/2015/08/07/amnesty-international-and-decriminalization-consenting-sex-work)

What's the right way to protect sex workers? (http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/07/whats-the-right-way-to-protect-sex-workers.html)

Also! Different subject but also about sex work:

This is a GREAT article about why sex workers should have access to PrEP: Why Isn't A Revolutionary HIV Medication Getting To Sex Workers? (http://www.vice.com/read/a-hard-pill-to-swallow-0000717-v22n8)

orestes
08-11-2015, 05:53 AM
playwithfire do you follow Melissa Gira on twitter? This (http://wearecitizenradio.com/20140220-melissa-gira-grant-on-sex-work-savior-complexes-and-a-vegan-dominatrix/) is a good interview with her about sex workers as someone who has been one herself. Like you said, I'm sure detractors of the AI proposal have good intentions but you have to look at who are primarily targeted by police and they are women of color and LGBTQ, especially when you factor in policy like Stop and Frisk, where women-who aren't even sex workers-have been arrested for solicitation by NYPD for simply sitting on their stoop or having a condom on them when frisked. (The last bit being illegal but when has NYPD ever followed their own rules?)

Khrz
08-11-2015, 05:57 AM
Obviously there are a ton of layers to that, but I just completely disagree that decriminalizing sex work (in the United States especially) will cause more harm to women, and I'm listening to the voices of sex workers. We need legislate to protect sex workers, but criminalizing what they do (criminalizing their customers or places of work) isn't the way to do that. Reading Steinem's thoughts on it was great.

I think the route to take here isn't to criminalize brothels or buying sex or anything like that, I think it's to *legalize* and create laws to *protect* sex workers. I'm quoting here, but: Criminalize slavery and abuse in all industries. Decriminalize sex work. Trafficking is a problem across many industries.

There has been a recurring discussion in France (and Europe in general) about sex work, especially prostitution, and indeed the most vocal and intelligent voices against were feminist ones, arguing against the exploitation of women, and putting women's lives at risk.
Now, there is indeed a lot of exploitation in this "industry" around here. Between the Shengen agreement, the refugees and the illegal immigration, a lot of women are simply shipped in France for the sole purpose of prostitution, and the way things are there is no way to guarantee their safety, or even to make sure the have a choice in the matter.

But I think banning isn't the solution either. It needs a legal and structural oversight. Obviously, a government still reluctant to de-criminalize the consumption of cannabis isn't any close to endorse and protect prostitution, so that's not going to happen any time soon, but I think in this case feminist voices would have a tremendous weight if they decided to fight for this.

Legalizing prostitution, especially in a traditionally socialist country, would go a long way to protect the women willing to work in that field. There's a stigma attached to sex work of any kind, which is extremely dangerous because the women and men associated with that are treated as disposable and fundamentally lost. Governmental recognition and oversight would be a huge step to correct that, I believe. They wouldn't be as respected as a banker or a dentist obviously, we still have a fucked up, neurotic attitude towards sex where we are utterly fascinated and obsessed with it yet extremely aggressive towards any person openly dealing with it. But still, it would really help the men and women involved.

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 06:43 AM
Former sex workers were involved with that letter to Amnesty and signed the letter so I guess there are opinions on both sides of the fence re that issue.
Khrz, if you read the above blog post (http://feministcurrent.com/7143/there-is-no-feminist-war-on-sex-workers/), she addresses the "fucked-up neurotic sex attitude" stance very well, I think.

Khrz
08-11-2015, 07:10 AM
Just to be clear here, I'll re-quote myself : "the most vocal and intelligent voices against were feminist ones".

Now I probably phrased that wrong to begin with. I mean that those who had the most impact on me were the feminist ones, because their arguments went far and beyond the whole "family values / moral pseudo-high ground" rhetoric.

If I understood that letter well, it's a protest against the decriminalization of sex work as is. Obviously you can't do that, that's not what I had in mind at all when I mentioned it. The core activity would remain, maybe even give the sex workers psychology courses and give them a whole array of social skills and turn prostitution into a form of companionship for hire. Also, no private contractors, not without a huge governmental oversight. I completely agree with that letter, you can't turn pimps into businessmen, at least not without a huge set of rules and regulations, which would have to be seriously and constantly enforced.

Fundamentally, turn the whole activity into an extreme form of social work, with all the regulations and boundaries that apply in such activities. I'm probably naive, but half the activity of prostitution amounts to social work to me. People who can't find companionship, who have nobody in their lives or who, for a reason or an other, can't find anyone to listen and care for them, even for an hour.

Legalizing prostitution as it is would amount to turning a blind eye at what happens, wash your hands and grab the tax cash, in effect turning the government into nothing more than an over-procurer. Obviously it doesn't work, and you can't half-ass that situation like this. I'm terrified at the prospect, it's a terrible implementation and a stupid lack of foresight. You wouldn't legalize cannabis like that, you set up rules, you put steps in place to reduce the risks of corruption and workarounds to a minimum, and you cut the dealers from the equation. How one would imagine that you can just say prostitution is legal the way it works today is just baffling to me, obviously you can't and shouldn't do that !

That's really a difficult topic. On one hand, criminalizing sex work only forces the "providers" to go underground, because obviously prostitution isn't going anywhere. You're only making it more expensive/lucrative and dangerous for the persons involved. If no one can mention it, you just can't know what's happening, simple as that. But on the other hand I actually can't imagine how to legalize it 100% safely. I still think forcing a governmental oversight and putting it in legal boundaries is better than nothing. A government endorsing prostitution is forced to deal with the associated problems, which in my mind is still better than ignoring it entirely and blaming everyone involved.


Edit : I'm still reading the blog post you linked, sorry I'm slow, but it's interesting, I'll reflect upon that.

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 08:56 AM
Fundamentally, turn the whole activity into an extreme form of social work, with all the regulations and boundaries that apply in such activities. I'm probably naive, but half the activity of prostitution amounts to social work to me. People who can't find companionship, who have nobody in their lives or who, for a reason or an other, can't find anyone to listen and care for them, even for an hour.
I think half is really really optimistic; Steinem has often quoted statistics about the horrible increase in physical violence directed toward women, especially in the U.S. but all over the world, and this is particularly evident in the sex trade. See this article (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/gloria-steinem-us-home-single-most-dangerous-place-woman).

Studies have shown that the majority of the customers aren't there for a companion; they're often violent. For the most part, this isn't some high-class call-girl version of Pretty Woman. They get beat up. A lot. Especially if they're trans (http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/sex-to-survive-the-transgender-women-who-arent-cait/story-fnq2o7dd-1227468226630).

A lot of them are homeless teens who have no other choice (http://www.ryot.org/heard-survival-sex-teens-nyc-daily/923405).

It's sad that our social programs are so lacking, or that our society is so stupid and uncaring, that people are forced into such degrading circumstances. I've been watching that show "I am Cait," and several of the trans women that Cait talks to at the Human Rights Campaign in San Francisco told stories of having to resort to sex work because they lost their jobs because they were trans and they couldn't find another job and they had to survive, and several were severely beaten. One woman said she was beaten and then the man drove away but then she heard his car come back and she realized he was coming back to run her over with his car.

But, not all "sex work" falls under these categories, obviously. There are different levels, and it would be hard to make any kind of one single sweeping legal change that makes any sense from the real feminist perspective (supports choice but also supports oppression and violence against girls and women).


Legalizing prostitution as it is would amount to turning a blind eye at what happens, wash your hands and grab the tax cash, in effect turning the government into nothing more than an over-procurer. Obviously it doesn't work, and you can't half-ass that situation like this. I'm terrified at the prospect, it's a terrible implementation and a stupid lack of foresight. You wouldn't legalize cannabis like that, you set up rules, you put steps in place to reduce the risks of corruption and workarounds to a minimum, and you cut the dealers from the equation. How one would imagine that you can just say prostitution is legal the way it works today is just baffling to me, obviously you can't and shouldn't do that !
Well, exactly, yeah.

Khrz
08-11-2015, 09:21 AM
Yes, but those are circumstances surrounding the state of sex work as it is right now. Again, I'll easily admit that I may be naive and optimistic, but it doesn't have to be this way.

I compared it to the legalization of cannabis earlier. Having been in those circles for a few years, there was a lot of violence involved. Dealers getting their clients beat up because they wouldn't pay, conflicts about the fairness of the trades, territorial head-butting... Those circumstances have more to do with the context of the dealings, not with the drug market itself. If there is no grid and if everything is illegal, things will turn this way. Put a legal structure around it, make it safe and socially acceptable and most of it disappears.

As it is prostitution is more often than not a position you find yourself into, the last dirty net before you fall completely. It's part of those underground, last resort solutions, and as such you find yourself dealing with a very shady population. Due to the illegality of the whole thing it obviously gives room to all sorts of violence, since there is no legal protection against that. To go on with my analogy, a dealer won't go to court because he's been beaten up and robbed. A clerk will.

There is a real distress from a part of the population, coming for solitude, isolation. I'm not talking about shy guys, I'm talking handicap for instance, invisible people who for a reason or an other won't find anyone to talk to, or to touch. Some go to see prostitutes, some wish they could but won't because of the current context surrounding it. I believe there is a way to offer this, provide a safe environment for the sex workers who are willing to continue on this route and a safe place for the people who seek that kind of intimacy.

I won't address the trans perspective, because to be honest I've just recently came to terms with that fact. I have never been against it, I was just not getting it. I'm just starting to grasp the concept now, to start to understand the human necessity of it, which I didn't a year ago. Somehow, as progressive as I like to think I am, my naivete made me think you could just accept yourself as you are, which sounds incredibly stupid to me now. But as I said, this step forward is very recent, and I believe I'm still too ignorant to comment on this whole perspective for now.

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 09:26 AM
Well, yeah. See also this (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/why-amsterdams-prostitution-laws-are-still-failing-protect-empower-women-1467733).


I compared it to the legalization of cannabis earlier. Having been in those circles for a few years, there was a lot of violence involved. Dealers getting their clients beat up because they wouldn't pay, conflicts about the fairness of the trades, territorial head-butting... Those circumstances have more to do with the context of the dealings, not with the drug market itself. If there is no grid and if everything is illegal, things will turn this way. Put a legal structure around it, make it safe and socially acceptable and most of it disappears.
Yes, but here in the U.S, in states where pot is legal it's so expensive the underground market still exists because it's cheaper. As is typical, the government fucks things up with overtaxation and overregulation, creating an underground or black market when they had attempted to get rid of it. Insurance doesn't cover medical marijuana because it's still FEDERALLY illegal, so costs are out-of-pocket. But we digress ...

Re handicapped people, there could be ways to license that professionally. Like sex surrogates, but legally.

You don't have to understand the trans perspective to understand that they can't find jobs and are being fired and have to resort to prostitution and are being beaten up, right? And there are enough high-paying customers out there who want to have sex with these trans women (and then sometimes beat them up).

Khrz
08-11-2015, 09:36 AM
Alright, you've made your point. Obviously, legalization hasn't worked so far, and I see how many of the things I've mentioned have been turned around to further the exploitation of the sex workers.

I still think criminalization isn't doing any good, for obvious reasons. Everyone washes their hands of what happens to the people working under those circumstances, swoop down once in a while, arrest a bunch of sex workers and clients and call it a victory. I know that proposing for things to be "less bad" than worst isn't really offering progress, but it feels clear to me that something has to be done in one direction or the other.

I won't comment on this any further, as I have nothing to further this topic. :)


Re handicapped people, there are actually legal sex workers in this country who are licensed to do that, believe it or not.

I didn't know that ! Interesting !

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 09:46 AM
I didn't know that ! Interesting !
Well, I changed that quote, because they do have "some" sexual sort of activity but they don't often have actual sex and one link I found quoted an FBI officer said even THAT was technically illegal, although Masters and Johnson used that for years and years, so who knows.

But we are talking actual real full-on sex, here, not just instructional sex, although you said more like "companionship" so I don't know.

From the feminist perspective, it's still hard for me to accept that somebody is selling their body when they often really don't want to do that and they have no other choice; and that the real solution is that we should fix society and give them choices, not decriminalize selling their body. It's like if their only choice was having a lion chew off parts of their body at the circus, but that was illegal, so we say, okay, here's a solution: We'll make lions chewing off parts of your body legal! And we'll have doctors on staff to sew up your wounds, and give you healthcare, and the police won't arrest you when lions chew off parts of your body! When, instead, maybe we should help them find a way out of poverty and get them an education and a better career, and give the lions some lion food.

If we want to have some sort of high-class version of the sex trade that is legal, that's fine; some kind of licensed, college-required or training-required version that is highly regulated with no street-walking or low-class brothels involved where you have a business card, okay. But that doesn't mean poverty-stricken people or teenagers forced into the sex trade who are beaten nearly to death or who are forced to take drugs, etc.

Khrz
08-11-2015, 10:08 AM
You don't have to understand the trans perspective to understand that they can't find jobs and are being fired and have to resort to prostitution and are being beaten up, right? And there are enough high-paying customers out there who want to have sex with these trans women (and then sometimes beat them up).

No, of course not, I was just saying that I preferred to avoid commenting on that, I'm afraid I'm too "green" on that topic to avoid saying something grossly insensitive, I'd rather not take that chance as it could be misinterpreted and taken as a solid opinion rather than a simply ignorant one.

We know full well who the lions are in your analogy. We also know they're not going vegan anytime soon, and to be cynical, we know that if we take the food off of them, they'll start hunting.
I completely understand your position. I've seen prostitutes take the streets to protest the government cranking up on the criminalization of prostitution, but I'm not naive enough to think those are people who were offered a whole array of career paths and decided to answer the calling of sex work. They will still defend their position if it's threatened.

I really don't know, as I said earlier I have nothing left to propose. As with many difficult issues, it's a web of economic circumstances, social stigma, ingrained behavior and legal mess. pull a thread and the whole thing becomes a mess of knots.

God you've got to stop editing your posts a dozen times ahahah
You definitely described what I have in mind with that last paragraph. Seeing it written like that I understand how it won't fix anything. The underground sex trade will remain there, and nothing will change.

Sarah K
08-11-2015, 10:25 AM
I think that when people think of "sex work", they often focus on full service sex work. But there are SO MANY JOBS that fall under that category - cam girls, escorts, sugar babies, dancers, pro-dommes, models, actors, etc, etc, etc.

What happens between consenting adults is their business. I do not believe that victimless crimes should be punished.

On fetlife, I follow _slut___slut_. She works at the Bunny Ranch, and has really opened up my eyes to a lot of things. I didn't know that words like prostitute and hooker were seen as degrading and dehumanizing to her and other sex workers. So now I try to use "sex worker" in place of all of the other words I used to use. The way that they are regulated to ensure the safety of everyone involved is amazing. She often talks about her story, and I've learned so much from her. I think that just like most things, when something is legalized and regulated, there are few downsides.

She also posted this quote, which gave me a lot to think about:


SWERF is an acronym that means ‘sex worker exclusionist radical feminist’ and illustrates the fact that despite their protests, anti sex worker fauxminists actually hate us, including those of us who are forced, coerced and/or trafficked. They hide this behind false statistics and pretending that anyone with a tumblr account is too privileged to have an opinion, but in truth, they just want to silence us and force us out of our jobs.

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 10:46 AM
You know, it's funny because I've been to Vegas, seen the Bunny Ranch "menu," seen documentaries about the Bunny Ranch, and most of those workers seem pretty happy about what they do, they're pretty protected there, and that's pretty indicative of what I mean when I said "high class" and when I said "brothel" that is absolutely an exception because that is a high-class version of a brothel. Because you pay a LOT OF MONEY at the Bunny Ranch. They also have a "turnover" there, meaning they usually don't stick around for more than a few years, I guess because the customers want new people after a while, so you make money while you can. But to classify us feminists who don't like sex work when it involves beating people up or children or the only resort with a lack of other options as "radicals" who "hate them" is not accurate, and it's especially weird coming from somebody who works at the high-class Bunny Ranch which is already legal sex work.

One of my closest friends in the 90s was a dancer who worked for a company in Chicago; she mostly did private parties and she had a closet full of costumes worthy of Vegas, and her specialty was Dom kind of stuff. We once did a trip to the Pleasure Chest (http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-pleasure-chest-chicago) so she could buy a paddle for her "show" and the guy behind the counter talked her into the model with holes in it, and I had a worried look on my face and she said, "I don't USE this thing, it's just to scare them!" But she always had a body guard ("Driver") with her for each party -- mostly bachelor parties -- for protection. One dancer went off on her own, without a guard, and she ended up being murdered after a party and it was on the local news. Very scary stuff. Anyway, my friend, in order to supplement her income, got a job in a Dungeon as a Dominatrix. She thought it would be the easiest job in the world, involved zero sex, just verbally abusing the customers, but she was bored out of her skull and they kept wanting to lick all of her custom-made shoes from her costumes (most of them were these Come-Fuck-Me pumps with handcuffs on them, or these thigh-high custom boots) and she didn't want them getting spit all over her boots all the time, so she made a shitload of money for a while but couldn't stand it anymore and quit. But, I didn't think any of this was illegal, since none of it (dancer, Dom) involved any sex at all.

orestes
08-11-2015, 11:13 AM
https://www.amnesty.org/latest/news/2015/08/global-movement-votes-to-adopt-policy-to-protect-human-rights-of-sex-workers/

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 11:27 AM
You know, I don't know why this reminds me of this, maybe it's thinking about my old friend the dancer, but it does ...

Back in the early-90s, I was watching that HBO "Real Sex" show and they had a segment on performance artist Annie Sprinkle (http://www.avclub.com/article/annie-sprinkle-25907) and in this segment, in front of a live audience in a club, Annie (who is very funny) takes off her underpants, cranks up her legs, inserts a speculum into her vagina, holds out a flashlight, and invites the audience to come up and inspect her cervix.

Now, my reaction to this was what surprised me.

I'm pretty jaded. I thought I'd seen pretty much everything, and I'm pretty open-minded.

But seeing this elicited this instant RESPONSE wherein I jumped up and ran around the room, kind of helplessly, as if I had been, I dunno, set on fire? I just ran around the room.

Around and around the room, I couldn't even sit down, yet my eyes were still watching this performance, on-and-off, people lined up with flashlights, to observe Annie's cervix.

And it got me to thinking: I'd never actually seen my own cervix, let alone someone else's. And here was this brave (?) woman up there on stage, allowing her cervix to be observed, and here are all these (inebriated?) people, waiting in line to shine a flashlight into Annie's vagina to take a gander.

And it was causing me discomfort like I'd never experienced, before, but in so many ways it was fucking awesome.

It was, like, the coolest fucking thing I'd ever seen.

And I went to the office and there was this female attorney who was in her early-30s and was pretty WASPy, her parents were pretty wealthy, but she smoked and so did I at the time, so she'd come over to "our side" of the office to smoke, where we all still smoked cigarettes with wanton abandon, and I said, "hey, I saw this woman on HBO do this thing last night, and it made me jump up and run around the room ..."

And I reluctantly told her about it, but I felt, for some reason, I had to tell somebody, especially another female. An intelligent female. Who smoked.

I gingerly waited for her reaction.

She thought it was fascinating and vowed to look for it on HBO, which she did, and after having seen it she too thought it was awesome.

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 11:30 AM
https://www.amnesty.org/latest/news/2015/08/global-movement-votes-to-adopt-policy-to-protect-human-rights-of-sex-workers/

I was a member of Amnesty for over 10 years, I sure hope they have a way to make law enforcement carry that out. We can't even keep cops from shooting people to death in this country.

Khrz
08-11-2015, 11:47 AM
I didn't know that words like prostitute and hooker were seen as degrading and dehumanizing to her and other sex workers.

To me a prostitute is someone who offers an actual sexual service for money. I'm all for dropping the term, I don't think it's inherently offensive but I understand that it has lot of baggage attached, and using another term somewhat offers a semblance of clean slate. "Semblance" because at the core, the problem is the perception of that activity, and changing names will only confuse people so far before the new name gets the same stigma, but fair enough.

"Sex workers" is just too large an umbrella though. Different services come with different parameters and context. Cam girls don't have the same life as prostitutes, they aren't perceived the same even though I know that they have their share of attackers and dangerous creeps, and they don't provide the same service.
While I don't know of "prostitutes" (for lack of a better, precise term) who chose that path, Cam girls definitely did, sometimes in conjunction with modelling for photographers. Whether this is a career path I don't know, I have no idea how it works legally and financially, but it's certainly something they decided to set up by themselves, and the ones I know don't seem to have chosen this out of desperation.

So, okay, let's drop "prostitute" to define a person offering a sexual act performed on a client in exchange for currency, but we need new words in exchange, because for example the discussion I was having with @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) only applied to prostitutes, and not to cam girls. Different context, circumstances etc...

Sarah K
08-11-2015, 11:54 AM
I misspoke on that... I asked her about derogatory terms, and this was her response to me:


Whore, hoe, hooker are all derogatory slurs. Prostitute is a legal term and is used to strip away pur humanity, ie, "local prostitute was found dead" instead of "local woman found murdered" It explicitly implies the illegal nature of most workers jobs. Than you for trying to be aware!

Then she did a writing on different things related to it a few days ago.

Khrz
08-11-2015, 11:56 AM
Alright, that I can get behind 100%.

Mantra
08-11-2015, 02:07 PM
I think something that bothers me about sex work is the whole "human being as a commodity" aspect. It just rubs me the wrong way. I don't even like the way that this already exists in so many other areas of our society, like in the service industry. Some people go to a restaurant and act so rude and entitled with their server, like they're their slave or something. Fucking hate that shit.

And in general, I just don't think it's good to view a person as a product. I remember years ago reading through this website for a full service escort agency and there were all these dudes writing their reviews for the different escorts, almost like they were writing an amazon review or something: "She was okay I guess, but I can't say I'd recommend her. She wasn't nearly as enthusiastic as some of the others I've tried and seemed kinda rushed. 2 stars out of 5." I've seen the same thing on cam sites too. That kinda attitude just doesn't sit well with me. There's already such a strong tendency in this society to view women primarily as aesthetic objects and to place them into roles of servitude. Ideally, I'd like to see less of that, and I guess I don't really see how you can avoid that with sex work.

Of course, I would never advocate arresting/criminalizing sex workers, which is obviously offensive and unethical. I'm just not entirely sure how to reconcile the nature of sex work with a more feminist perspective. Not that I'm an expert on this subject or all the different perspectives that people have on it.

Cat Mom
08-11-2015, 02:42 PM
Mantra, you've eloquently stated how I feel on the topic but couldn't quite put into words. Thank you.

I understand it from an open-minded perspective but it's hard for me to reconcile viewing women as a commodity or a product from a feminist perspective. It just seems, I don't know, counterintuitive, a step backward and just more patriarchy in denial. There's always some fat rich male pimp at the top. I try to see if there is a way to resolve this by involving more intellectual qualities, maybe a college degree, but there just isn't because ultimately it's totally base. It creates this cognitive dissonance for me that I can't reconcile. And then feminists like me tend to get grouped by other feminists into this "rigid prude-y can't get laid hates sex" group, which is false and counterproductive. I am totally into sex-positive feminism but I never understood how this fit into that picture. But this has been going on since the 80s so I pretty much gave up even discussing it, really. If it can be a civilized and intelligent discussion, which we seem to be having here, that's great.

eversonpoe
08-11-2015, 03:50 PM
i wish it worked like on firefly, where there are Companions, who are essentially on the highest tier of society, who get to carefully select their clients, and offer an experience that is physical, emotional, and spiritual. and i'm sure there are some sex workers who operate that way, but it's certainly not the majority of them, from what i understand.

also, i realize it's unlikely that we'll reach a point like that across the board any time soon, but it would be fantastic.

icklekitty
08-11-2015, 04:54 PM
The trustees of my charity are in the process of finalising documentation so that we can set up a proper website and start being a proper resource for our beneficiaries.

Being a charity that tries to encompass alternative lifestyles and the multiplicities of gender and sexuality is hard! We've realised that we have no binary women or transwomen on the board, so are considering consultants. We're divising questionnaires to make sure we can cover our blindspots, and to create safe space policies and guidelines as we grow. So, an organisation that covers drag queens and transpeople, spectrum embracers and the binaries, the gender and the agender, the polyamourous pansexual, asexual, and....all the various intersections when you match that up to people who are fetishists, goths, furries, punks, metalheads, hippies, and cosplayers.

I am learning a LOT!

orestes
08-11-2015, 08:32 PM
https://www.amnesty.org/qa-policy-to-protect-the-human-rights-of-sex-workers/

littlemonkey613
08-11-2015, 09:26 PM
A while back there was a conversation in other thread about Affirmative Consent and the "Yes means Yes" bill that passed in California and I had promised to give my take on it since I have done a lot of activism on this issue and continue to do so, but I totally forgot and never did!

Anyways just about every critique I have read or heard about this approach is either on the lower end of the spectrum complete rape culture trash, and on the more humane intelligent side just simply misunderstand how things are usually handled now and what has definitively changed when something like this is put into place.

The primary goal of this approach is to shift focus primarily to the alleged crime itself, which should seem like a no brainer but when it comes to rape and sexual assault this usually just isn't so when it comes to law enforcement and especially judicial committees on college campuses. Part of of the reason that batshit points of question like what the victim was wearing, why they would "put themselves in danger", whether they gave the wrong idea or not etc. are so prevalent is because the actual alleged crime aka engaging with sexual acts without receiving definitive consent is not the focus as it should be. The language in the affirmative consent bill was thankfully created by people who are very knowledgable about this issue and what is at stake. Furthermore, they were especially careful to avoid the bullshit that some people think the law requires like constant verbal confirmation and what not.

For example the word affirmative was chosen because the most commonly understood definition of the word is that affirmations are verbal but that is not the only definition of the word. There are many ways to show affirmation. Within the context of the bill, unlike within most rape and assault investigations, those in charge are now required to focus (or at least ask, which is sadly a huge step) on why the alleged attacker thought they had consent. Again it seems like a no brainer but I think it if truly was this approach would not even be controversial.

Does it not make complete and utter sense that when someone is accused specifically of doing something without the accusers consent that the accused should have to answer to what consent they received or why they thought they received it? Think of it this way. If I was accused of trespassing on someone's property and it was conceded that I was on the property but I claimed I had an invitation, should the focus not be what form that invitation took and why I thought it was valid? I hate to compare these kinds of crimes to property crimes but sadly I am sort of forced into that position when it comes to defending this.

Of course it does not get rid of the inherent problem of that people could still simply lie, or say a sexual encounter never even took place, but these are the problems that should exist within any even semi just system. I simply cannot take people who are more concerned with the after math of affirmative consent rather than what is the norm presently very seriously. Like really? This rhetoric causes outrage over the horror of reality of what already takes place when all it does is force the issue of consent to be the center of an investigation specifically about the violation of consent? No longer can the accused use the excuse that they are "not a mind reader" or that they were unsure whether the person was down. Rather it would act as almost as a confession if these things were expressed. As it should be. There should be nothing controversial about the law stating more specifically that you are required to know the person you are having sex with wants to have sex with you.

I hope this was helpful and I can go way more in depth about this if anyone has any questions or still is concerned about the rhetoric and function within these kinds of bills.

Over all it doesn't fix much b/c schools can still decide to not honor their own policies as they do generally with sexual assault cases, but it was a very important step b/c it inches society closer to a necessary paradigm shift long overdue and it was the state's way of declaring that they have noticed there are vulnerable populations experiencing normalized violence on college campuses and that they care and want it to change.

Cat Mom
08-12-2015, 09:36 AM
i wish it worked like on firefly, where there are Companions, who are essentially on the highest tier of society, who get to carefully select their clients, and offer an experience that is physical, emotional, and spiritual. and i'm sure there are some sex workers who operate that way, but it's certainly not the majority of them, from what i understand.

also, i realize it's unlikely that we'll reach a point like that across the board any time soon, but it would be fantastic.

That's the conflicting thing, though; ultimately, it's just sex. Sex doesn't have to be some kind of spiritual or emotional experience, it doesn't have to be anything more important than a tennis game.

It's a business transaction, nothing more. Actually, it should be under the same college category as physical therapy and you should be able to get a college degree in the subject ("sexual therapy") so you can get more money and good health insurance.

If you look at Mantra's post, above, he says: "I remember years ago reading through this website for a full service escort agency and there were all these dudes writing their reviews for the different escorts, almost like they were writing an amazon review or something: "She was okay I guess, but I can't say I'd recommend her. She wasn't nearly as enthusiastic as some of the others I've tried and seemed kinda rushed. 2 stars out of 5."

But if you change that text to this, it's different: "I remember years ago reading through this website for tennis instructors and there were all these dudes writing their reviews for the different tennis instructors, almost like they were writing an amazon review or something: "She was okay I guess, but I can't say I'd recommend her. She wasn't nearly as enthusiastic as some of the others I've tried and seemed kinda rushed. 2 stars out of 5."

First one, creepy? Second one, okay?

And the reasons for this, obviously, are many, mostly because of society's (albeit perhaps subconscious) puritanical attitudes about female sex, but also because the internet has made it all a lot more weird and has shone a spotlight onto something and evaluated something that was never "graded" or evaluated, before (which smacks of gender expectations) but also because, for the better part of history, houses of prostitution were owned and operated by females and somewhere along the line that changed and it primarily fell under male control, save for maybe Heidi Fleiss (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidi_Fleiss). So the big money goes to the males at the top, and the much smaller money goes to the female (or male) workers at the bottom, which is just more patriarchy. So somehow the capitalist colonialist patriarchy managed to take over even "the oldest profession in the world."

Mantra
08-12-2015, 10:23 AM
feminists like me tend to get grouped by other feminists into this "frigid prude-y can't get laid hates sex" group, which is false and counterproductive. I am totally into sex-positive feminism but I never understood how this fit into that picture.

Right, well I suspect it's because so much of the conversation around sex work draws upon a sense of morality that's either directly or indirectly informed by traditional/christian values, and so sex-positive feminists are reacting against that. Because some of that stuff actually can be kind of sex-negative and anti-feminist, where sex workers are all viewed as tragic and broken. Like my jehovahs witness grandma thinks it's heartbreaking to read about a woman selling her body when she should be saving it for her husband. She feels deeply sympathetic and (rightfully) upset to hear about the awful conditions that some sex workers have to endure, but ultimately her attitude doesn't really operate outside of a patriarchal value system, and she doesn't entirely see them as real, complex people just like her.

So I totally understand the desire to move beyond that attitude, to stop painting sex workers as lost victims and instead start viewing them as three dimensional human beings who have agency and dignity and so on. The only sex worker I've ever known is my friend from college who says she loved her job for the years that she did it. She is intimidatingly smart but also has an incredibly warm and gentle personality and enjoys a happy life. I suspect it would be hard for someone like my grandma to reconcile the reality of my friend with the image in her mind of sex workers being these shattered souls. And so that's the stuff I totally agree with when it comes to being pro-sex work, the idea of viewing sex workers in a more positive/human light.

But just as I don't want to see my friend perpetually viewed as some kind of lost victim, I also hate to imagine her being written about on that escort review site, with a bunch of assholes rating and assessing her like she's a fucking amazon product. Because that kind of bullshit also flattens her out and takes away her humanity, and it just seems so blatantly anti-feminist to me. I don't understand how to, on the one hand, be critical of the way mass media often portrays women, but on the other hand support escort review sites. That just makes zero sense to me. And in grand scheme of things, I don't understand how sex work is any kind of challenge to patriarchy (again, not that I'm fully informed about the opposing side on this issue).

Cat Mom
08-12-2015, 12:03 PM
But just as I don't want to see my friend perpetually viewed as some kind of lost victim, I also hate to imagine her being written about on that escort review site, with a bunch of assholes rating and assessing her like she's a fucking amazon product. Because that kind of bullshit also flattens her out and takes away her humanity, and it just seems so blatantly anti-feminist to me. I don't understand how to, on the one hand, be critical of the way mass media often portrays women, but on the other hand support escort review sites. That just makes zero sense to me. And in grand scheme of things, I don't understand how sex work is any kind of challenge to patriarchy (again, not that I'm fully informed about the opposing side on this issue).
And I totally understand what you are saying but I say to myself sometimes, would I feel the same way if it was a dude? There was this guy on the Bachelorette who was a male dancer and it was rumored online that he was also a het male escort, but do we view him as a lost soul who is being violated, or just a dude making a living who can't find a better job? Yeah, I guess we do often view those guys as pretty dumb, actually, like "guess he couldn't make it into college." We view the females with their precious flower being violated but the males as being dumb oafs who couldn't even get a job at the Mobile station. It's still all gender bias.


with a bunch of assholes rating and assessing her like she's a fucking amazon product
But see now you are protecting her from the lions ... :p

Like "Quality Control Testers (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nevada-bunny-ranch-brothel-seeking-paid-testers-article-1.2169043?cid=bitly)" at the Bunny Ranch? LOL.

Wolfkiller
08-12-2015, 01:27 PM
You guys have it mixed up I think in regards to escorts and prostitutes being rated and treated like they are a product. It's the SERVICE they provide that is the product, not them. Whether that be the sex or whatever escorts do, that is the service being rated. (This applies backwards to the service industry as well, though 100% agree you should never be rude to or treat your server like you own them. That double backwards to prostitutes as well!)

Mantra
08-12-2015, 07:07 PM
You guys have it mixed up I think in regards to escorts and prostitutes being rated and treated like they are a product. It's the SERVICE they provide that is the product, not them. Whether that be the sex or whatever escorts do, that is the service being rated.

Right, I know what you're saying, I was actually thinking about this even as I was typing up that post, but I don't know.... I think it's kind of tough to make such a hard distinction between the actual person and the service they offer. It certainly doesn't seem like people draw those distinctions when they talk about other service workers. The person's personality is always a crucial part of the service. People are like "that server was so funny and nice!" or "wow, our server sure had a bitchy personality." No one ever follows that up with "Of course, I'm only referring to the SERVICE they provided! I obviously have no opinion on them as a person AT ALL." The service and the person are a package, and I think this applies to sex work just as much if not more, given the nature of the work. I don't think most guys are gonna leave and be like "Hmmm, excellent service" as if they're happy about getting a prompt pizza delivery. They're thinking/writing about their experience with that person. So I don't know.

Sarah K
08-12-2015, 09:37 PM
The woman I spoke about earlier is doing an AMA right now... Might be interesting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3gsf4i/iama_sex_worker_working_legally_in_nevadas/

elevenism
08-12-2015, 09:49 PM
So feminism ultimately comes down to gender equality, right? I'm all for that.

When i went to have my MRI done the other day, the radiologist or nuclear physicist or whatever you have to be to run that machine, was gorgeous.
I mean like, made me stutter, i wouldn't want to date her because she was TOO pretty and men would constantly hassle her, insanely utterly gorgeous.

And i ALMOST told her. But i thought long and hard about it and it's an interesting question. Does she hear it all day? Would she feel threatened by it? Creeped out?

It occurred to me that telling a girl that she's beautiful means that certain things have been crossing my mind, possibly involuntarily. But it's a MATING urge, isn't it? It's instinct.

SO. Is it EVER ok to tell a girl that you don't know that you think she is pretty? It may sound crazy, but i think that the answer is no, unless you are trying to GET to know her because you would like to take her out.

orestes
08-12-2015, 10:00 PM
Don't be a fuckboy.

Cat Mom
08-12-2015, 10:02 PM
SO. Is it EVER ok to tell a girl that you don't know that you think she is pretty? It may sound crazy, but i think that the answer is no, unless you are trying to GET to know her because you would like to take her out.

We had a discussion about this in the old thread.

In the olden days, guys told me this in passing, but it didn't mean anything and it was okay, this was before the internet with information overload where people tell people everything and too much.

I dunno if a medical setting is the proper venue, though. Very wrong venue.

Cat Mom
08-12-2015, 10:07 PM
The woman I spoke about earlier is doing an AMA right now... Might be interesting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3gsf4i/iama_sex_worker_working_legally_in_nevadas/

That was interesting!

elevenism
08-13-2015, 01:30 AM
Thanks @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76).
@orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) , what exactly is a "fuckboy?" lolol

or maybe @Miss Baphomette (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=11) or @eversonpoe (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588) or @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) can answer me, since you guys "liked" it. ;)

i think the precise reason i asked the question is that i wanted you ladies, in your infinite wisdom, to help me AVOID being a fuckboy.

that's if it just means what it sounds like and isn't some inside joke you girls have cooked up earlier in the thread.

playwithfire
08-13-2015, 05:52 AM
elevenism, go look at http://straightwhiteboystexting.tumblr.com/

That's fuckboy behavior. Basically guys who pay women "romantic" or sexual attention without caring what the other person thinks.

Cat Mom
08-13-2015, 10:22 AM
i think the precise reason i asked the question is that i wanted you ladies, in your infinite wisdom, to help me AVOID being a fuckboy.
Point is: WHY would you say it?

What's the purpose?

(Rhetorical question)

In the last 30 years, society (particularly American society) has grown accustomed to spewing pretty much anything we think, online and in person. Walk through the mall with a baby sometime and you'll see what I mean; get bombarded by 800 people spewing germs onto the baby, "look at that baby," "what a cute baby," "is it a boy or a girl?," etc. My niece is half-black and when she was a baby, we'd actually get white people guessing her ethnic origin, "is she MEDITERRANEAN?" Walk around with a visibly pregnant woman, see people wanting to touch her belly, give her unwanted advice, etc.

So you have an attractive woman at work and you, the patient, her customer at her job, thinks she is "pretty" which has absolutely zero to do with her job, so do you tell her this for no gain other than you feel you have to tell her, and why? For you? Because you think she needs to know? For her job? For her self-esteem? Maybe she's wandering through life unaware of her beauty? And it might help her career?

50 years ago, this comment was just a compliment; add years of sexual harassment, online harassment, social media harassment, cat-calling, not to mention that it also doubles as a pick-up line, and it's no longer just a compliment.

The only people who go ahead and tell her this are children and old people, because they don't understand boundaries.

sentient02970
08-13-2015, 10:45 AM
So you have an attractive woman at work and you, the patient, her customer at her job, thinks she is "pretty" which has absolutely zero to do with her job, so do you tell her this for no gain other than you feel you have to tell her, and why? For you? Because you think she needs to know? For her job? For her self-esteem? Maybe she's wandering through life unaware of her beauty? And it might help her career?

Exactly, ask yourself first before just doing what you want.

I'll never understand why people can't offer any consideration of what a person may feel about what you will say/do to them. Instead, it's mostly about self: "I just wanted to.." "I thought it would be best if.." "Seemed like the right thing for me to.." It's usually blamed on the recipient's sensitivity where in fact it's the deliverer's LACK of sensitivity that creates the issues. Are we all born this selfish and need to learn to shrug it off with maturity? I just don't get it. Maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

Khrz
08-13-2015, 11:02 AM
I'll never understand why people can't offer any consideration of what a person may feel about what you will say/do to them.

I wholeheartedly agree with allegro, but what you feel and what other people feel are vastly different.
Some guys will take a compliment as flirting, some will take it at face value. Some will take obvious flirting as it is, some will just think you're being nice (and a bit confusing). Some people care about their appearance and appreciate the recognition, some others just want to feel awesome for themselves and couldn't give a fuck what you think one way or the other.

What Allegro wrote is a good rule of thumb, and I agree with what you said when it comes to extreme cases ie catcalling. And elevenism 's situation is just so fucking potentially awkward it hurts. But I think you should never assume what other people think, appreciate, or strongly react to. Obviously, with that said, it means that the best route of action is to be tactful and politely cautious.

Just, try to be a human being. See how the people react to simple conversation pieces, do they even want to engage or are the politely monosyllabic ?

orestes
08-13-2015, 11:15 AM
I pretty much have to deal with fuckboys on a daily basis at work and no, I don't work at Hooters. I just have to politely deal with idiots who think by me saying hello or smiling at them is an invitation into my personal life. (I work in retail management where being nice to the customer is necessary.) It wasn't always the case; I mean, I don't recall guys asking for my number when I was fifty pounds heavier but that's another issue.

It's even worse when I have to deal with guys asking about my tattoos (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/tattoos-are-not-invitations/). I'm working on a half sleeve and even though I try to keep them covered as much as possible, they're very colorful and draw attention to customers. Just yesterday, an older guy decided to grab my arm to take a peak at my tattoos. He didn't ask to see them; he just decided it was his right to invade my personal space. I politely but firmly told him not to touch me and why you should always ask first to see someone's tattoos. This sounds like common fucking sense but you'd be surprised how much this goes out the window when it comes to tattoos. People seem to think that because tattoos are visible then they are for public consumption. I'm a human not some public works project. As if that incident wasn't bad enough, another guy later in the day started asking me questions about my tattoo-the same arm piece as before-that were none of his fucking business, like how much it costs and whether or not it hurt. (Tiny needles injected permanent ink below the surface of my skin, of course it fucking hurt.) After playing like I didn't hear the question or just plain avoiding answering his questions, he told me that curiosity got the best of him and he just *had* to see the tattoo for himself. He did ask but given the circumstances I had to tell him no.

Volband
08-13-2015, 11:16 AM
The woman I spoke about earlier is doing an AMA right now... Might be interesting.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3gsf4i/iama_sex_worker_working_legally_in_nevadas/
"I'm not interested in dating anyone who wouldn't call themselves a feminist."

"Sex work exclusionary Feminists. They tell me that I'm a piece of meat to be bought and sold, I'm perpetuating violence against children and encouraging sex trafficking. No one has ever said such horrible things to me as the people who think sex workers don't have human rights. Tumblr is ablaze with SWERFS freaking out over Amnesty International's choice to support decrim of sex work. If they actually listened to sex workers, they'd get a better understanding of what we need, but they're caught up on scare tactics and faulty reports, misleading statistics."

Interesting AMA overall; she's quite funny! Did not get the wizard joke, but saved herself with the DBZ reference.

Volband
08-13-2015, 11:49 AM
I pretty much have to deal with fuckboys on a daily basis at work and no, I don't work at Hooters. I just have to politely deal with idiots who think by me saying hello or smiling at them is an invitation into my personal life. (I work in retail management where being nice to the customer is necessary.) It wasn't always the case; I mean, I don't recall guys asking for my number when I was fifty pounds heavier but that's another issue.
This is actually very interesting. I remember a discussion which was about men and what things would be helpful for us if they were different, mainly because of gender roles, and one of the highest rated response was that - and I think it came from a woman - men should receive more casual compliments. Getting selfless compliments feels good, but it's socially much more acceptable to give it to girls, than boys, or at least among the same genders, but boys are hardly like "OMG DUDE, NICE HAIR", we rather go with "well, you don't look like shit now, I guess!", hah.

A lot depends on the situation and the delivery, but I wouldn't label everyone a fuckboy or anything for giving a genuine compliment to some girl without expecting or even wanting to get something out of it. Just don't be a fucking creep about it.
- let's say you are about to leave the restaurant, and after you paid up your waitress, you tell her how pretty her face or hair is, or she has a really nice pair of shoes, or whatever, and you leave. You don't wait around for telephone numbers, or expecting a conversation, you just leave. I don't think it would leave her devastated and/or annoyed, if anything, it would or at least could make her day.
- now, if you've just arrived to the restaurant and the same wiatress is about to get your order, and you start bombing her with compliments, while staring into her soul through her eyes, and not saying anything else, or even being self-conscious during it... yeah, that's bad.

orestes
08-13-2015, 11:59 AM
No, these are fuckboys. I can tell when someone is being genuine about giving a compliment, which I nicely receive by the way, and a guy simply trying to place himself in my personal space for my number. Fuckboys don't take no for an answer, even if you tell them you're in a relationship and don't want to "be friends" with a complete stranger who just walked up to you and demanded you give them your number.

Sarah K
08-13-2015, 12:01 PM
I don't think it's ever appropriate when someone is at work.

The problem is this... Nearly every single time a man compliments a woman, if we respond, it is viewed as an invitation to take it further. I can think of two times in my life where a man complimented me, I responded, and then that was it. They didn't get pushy or take it as an invitation to get weird. Two times.

Edit - I'm fat as shit, and often times, people equate that with low self esteem, easy, etc. So maybe with more conventionally attractive women, it isn't as aggressive? I dunno. Or maybe they have it even worse.

Cat Mom
08-13-2015, 12:24 PM
"Interesting AMA overall; she's quite funny! Did not get the wizard joke, but saved herself with the DBZ reference.
She linked her Tumblr (http://sarahxgreenmore.tumblr.com/post/124392637613/so-you-want-to-be-a-sex-worker-an-all-american).

playwithfire
08-13-2015, 01:24 PM
A lot depends on the situation and the delivery, but I wouldn't label everyone a fuckboy or anything for giving a genuine compliment to some girl without expecting or even wanting to get something out of it. Just don't be a fucking creep about it.

This, specifically, is what defines fuckboys. That expectation/making it about them. That and unwanted/unsolicited sexual advances without taking the receiver into consideration.

The key thing I think when complimenting someone is just to think about how it make them feel. Like, are they working? Will they have to respond? Is the compliment too personal for a stranger? Maybe they're alone at night.

A respectful compliment that doesn't come with expectations or pressure and is a compliment for compliment's sake is nice. :)

elevenism
08-13-2015, 01:58 PM
now @orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) , as far as the tattoo thing goes, surely you knew that people would ask you about them when you got them.

Gawking at them is one thing (and honestly, MOST people don't know not to do that.)

Of course, GRABBING at you is utterly ridiculous behavior and you should have slapped the motherfucker.

But being asked about them is par for the course.

I have 1" plugs in my ears and 2 gauge plugs in my conches and i have had them for many years.

If i go out in public here, at least 1 person asks me about them.

And when i lived in dallas, it was more like TEN. Ten a day. in fact, 99 percent of the conversations with strangers that i had on the bus/train were started by my piercings, and i had at least one conversation every day. If i didn't wanna talk to people, i pulled my hood over my head.

and btw, i am the opposite of a fuckboy ;) thanks for clearing that up.

orestes
08-13-2015, 02:06 PM
I didn't get my tattoos for someone else's approval. I don't mind talking about them if 1) I have the time and 2)they seem genuinely interested. But to have mostly guys ask me the same five questions on an almost daily basis can be draining.

elevenism
08-13-2015, 02:12 PM
I didn't get my tattoos for someone else's approval. I don't mind talking about them if 1) I have the time and 2)they seem genuinely interested. But to have mostly guys ask me the same five questions on an almost daily basis can be draining.
i feel you.
the thing with my plugs that is INSANELY draining is "did that hurt." or even worse, DOES that hurt. i don't even understand that one. like, does it hurt now?

it obviously fucking hurt. and it obviously no longer hurts.

i have been wearing big fat barbells in my conches and have taken to pushing up on them, so where before they just saw a ball, now they see how massive it is and freak out. and say "what? this?"

but a lot of times i will talk to people. and for me it's actually cool. i LOVE meeting all kinds of people of various ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds, and man, there was no better place to do that than on the train in dallas. i LOVE talking to people. and my piercings actually facilitated that.

My brother is covered in tattoos and he taught me not to look at someone's ink without asking.

Cat Mom
08-13-2015, 02:18 PM
Yes, but this is the feminist thread, so we're talking about orestes' experience with tattoos while at work, with males coming up to her while she's at work and bugging her at work and actually touching her and invading her personal space, wasting her time while she's on the company clock, etc.

And all of this is disrespectful to her in a number of ways, and all of it pretty much says "I'm not taking the fact that you are working right now very seriously, because I am not respecting you."

That being said, G and I were at a restaurant / bar last Saturday night and we had a cute female waitperson who was obviously very very nervous and she finally admitted, when I tried to help her be a little less nervous, that it was only her third day on the job, and I told her she was doing a great job. It was busy, and there was a jazz trio in front of us, and we ended up joining tables with a couple next to us who were a LOT of fun, and I asked our waitperson about her really cute collar of tattoos, just to kind of break the ice a little, and that worked to some extent, and she told us about them, the older guy next to us asked what her parents thought and she told us about that, so in HER line of work, as a cocktail / food server, it worked. We were giving her funny advice like when she brought over a shaker of martinis she was just going to pour them ('the bartender already shook this, so ...") and we said, "nooooo, you gotta shake the shaker, too, like Tom Cruise in 'Cocktail', it'll get you more tips!" and the bartender was laughing and giving her Thumbs-up and stuff. So it all depends on the venue, etc., but dudes in retail, noooooooooo.

We each left that gal a HUUUUUUUUUGE tip, btw.

Dra508
08-13-2015, 04:40 PM
Yes, but this is the feminist thread, so we're talking about @orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) ' experience with tattoos while at work, with males coming up to her while she's at work and bugging her at work and actually touching her and invading her personal space, wasting her time while she's on the company clock, etc.Not having any tattoos myself and being a women, not a fuck boy, @orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) experience got me thinking: one of my yoga teachers has a sleeve that's a work in progress so every time I see her there is a bit more color and it's a really pretty integrated design of lilies and such. Am I being to forward complimenting it/her? :( I don't want to fuck her - but she is wearing a tiny tank top, she's not hiding it.



"nooooo, you gotta shake the shaker, too, like Tom Cruise in 'Cocktail', it'll get you more tips!" and the bartender was laughing and giving her Thumbs-up and stuff. So it all depends on the venue, etc., but dudes in retail, noooooooooo.

We each left that gal a HUUUUUUUUUGE tip, btw.Like she wasn't even a twinkle in her parents' eyes when THAT craptastic movie came out. :P

eversonpoe
08-13-2015, 04:55 PM
Not having any tattoos myself and being a women, not a fuck boy, @orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) experience got me thinking: one of my yoga teachers has a sleeve that's a work in progress so every time I see her there is a bit more color and it's a really pretty integrated design of lilies and such. Am I being to forward complimenting it/her? :( I don't want to fuck her - but she is wearing a tiny tank top, she's not hiding it.

i find that the best way to compliment someone in a way that they know it's simply a compliment and nothing else is to do it when leaving. so at the end of class, as you're walking out, say, "by the way, i love your sleeve!" and then leave. that way there's no question about whether or not you expect a response, or that you're trying to "get" anywhere; you're simply paying a polite compliment. same goes for ANYONE.

if i see someone wearing a cute dress walking toward me on the sidewalk, i'll say, calmly, "i like your dress!" with a nice smile, and just keep going. i like making people feel good, but i don't like making them uncomfortable, so i do my best with things like that, and i've found it to be a good method. sometimes it makes someone's day, and i can see their face light up. other times, they kind of ignore it, and that is ABSOLUTELY FINE because it's up to THEM how to respond, not me. that's how to not be a fuckboy.

playwithfire
08-13-2015, 08:41 PM
Holy shit, THIS. Giving compliments in a situation where you've REMOVED the possibility for expectations are the best. And they feel great to give because you know there won't be like any weirdness.

Baphomette
08-13-2015, 09:41 PM
I've never thought twice about telling a woman she's beautiful. I'm a little more reserved about doing so with men unless it's in a setting with a lot of Latinos/Latinas. We tell each other we're gorgeous all the time. ;)

Cat Mom
08-13-2015, 10:04 PM
I've never thought twice about telling a woman she's beautiful. I'm a little moire reserved about doing so with men unless it's in a setting with a lot of Latinos/Latinas. We tell each other we're gorgeous all the time. ;)

Exactly, women telling other women they look beautiful is different, I do it all the time. The ladies' room full of drunks is like a love party, "girrrrrrl you look gooooooood."

playwithfire
08-13-2015, 10:39 PM
I actually do think about it! I tend to feel kinda awkward around women I'm attracted to and don't want to be creepy.

Also the compliments thing for people I *don't* want to think I'm hitting them is also a thing. I don't want them to think I have expectations OR create them.

eversonpoe
08-14-2015, 11:12 AM
Exactly, women telling other women they look beautiful is different, I do it all the time. The ladies' room full of drunks is like a love party, "girrrrrrl you look gooooooood."


I actually do think about it! I tend to feel kinda awkward around women I'm attracted to and don't want to be creepy.

Also the compliments thing for people I *don't* want to think I'm hitting them is also a thing. I don't want them to think I have expectations OR create them.

yeah i think it's definitely different for straight women.

i used to have a hard time telling dudes that i found them attractive because i knew most of them would think i was hitting on them, even if it was just a friend who i thought looked nice. thankfully, these days, i have a group of friends who know i'm not hitting on them and just being nice, and they're all pretty handsome, so i like being able to tell them they look good!

icklekitty
08-14-2015, 11:44 AM
I think complimenting someone's choice of style/artwork/clothing is generally (fuckboys aside) seen as more of a compliment than complimenting the...inevitable genetic result of your parents fucking.

eversonpoe
08-14-2015, 04:22 PM
perfect example of why the kind of behavior we've been discussing is a problem (and gross)

http://41.media.tumblr.com/541701576105d60fac8270f87516bb71/tumblr_ns2k2eLtVE1r2gjg1o1_250.jpg http://41.media.tumblr.com/bded06c52ef6428461dd66658868bc78/tumblr_ns2k2eLtVE1r2gjg1o2_250.jpg
"I am an innocent beautiful lesbian and I don’t deserve this"

source (http://usagis.co.vu/post/125040419427)

orestes
08-14-2015, 05:21 PM
Heh, this does bring up the fact that heterosexuality is most people's default, especially in regard to female sexuality. Like, the very thought that a woman could be queer is unfathomable. Just the other day, I was telling @playwithfire (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=15) about this guy who just had to let me know I was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen-classic fuckboy delivery-and he asked if I had a boyfriend. I told him no and he automatically thought he was in so he asked for my number. I had to clarify that I had a girlfriend and this dumbass still asked for my number.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu8i0n9hud1r5r8duo1_500.gif

I do have a funny if pathetic anecdote to share though: sometime back, this young man, who looked barely legal, tried to ask me out and failed miserably. All these incidents have been at work, as if this needs reminding. :p I told him no and instead of leaving it at that, he tries to play 20 Questions with me, asking how is he supposed to get to know me if I don't give him a chance, blah blah blah. This went on for a good five minutes, wasting my damn time. Finally, he said he hoped I wasn't gay because it was "going around at the moment" between girls. It broke my heart to have to tell him "yes". As if this incident wasn't bad enough, this fuckboy showed up like a month later to ask me out again in case I changed my mind. Uggggggggghhhhhh. I told him to leave the building, otherwise I would call security.

Khrz
08-14-2015, 07:56 PM
Finally, he said he hoped I wasn't gay because it was "going around at the moment" between girls.

What ? Like the flu ?!

Although, I won't judge, god fucking knows what I was certain of at (say 21) in my infinite virginal wisdom...

orestes
08-14-2015, 08:04 PM
Yeah, I came down with a virulent strain of the gay. Had me out for a week!

-----------------------------------------

I love this magical lady!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLg55iOj6g4

littlemonkey613
08-14-2015, 08:54 PM
Exactly, women telling other women they look beautiful is different, I do it all the time. The ladies' room full of drunks is like a love party, "girrrrrrl you look gooooooood."

My favorite situation in life is hanging with fellow drunk girls in bathrooms ahaah its the most positive environment imaginable. All those one night friendships :')

Baphomette
08-14-2015, 09:38 PM
I think complimenting someone's choice of style/artwork/clothing is generally (fuckboys aside) seen as more of a compliment than complimenting the...inevitable genetic result of your parents fucking.Sometimes, the person you're complementing doesn't have a distinct style or any artwork about or an interesting item of clothing. And a compliment that has to be thought out isn't really a compliment at all. It's a ploy.

Cat Mom
08-14-2015, 11:28 PM
I love this magical lady!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLg55iOj6g4
THAT ... and she ... is awesome. Thank you.

telee.kom
08-15-2015, 06:42 AM
orestes I wonder if you know how extremely condescending and arrogant you sound. "Pff all these pathetic little people bellow my level, why do they even talk to me?" Maybe step down from the pedestal you put yourself on a little bit, why don't you?

orestes
08-15-2015, 06:55 AM
Good thing my self-worth isn't tied to someone else's opinion!

eversonpoe
08-15-2015, 07:21 AM
@orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) I wonder if you know how extremely condescending and arrogant you sound. "Pff all these pathetic little people bellow my level, why do they even talk to me?" Maybe step down from the pedestal you put yourself on a little bit, why don't you?

are you into victim blaming, too? what on earth has she done to ask for the attention of these people who are obviously out to gain something for themselves? nothing. so why should she have to deal with their bullshit?

slave2thewage
08-15-2015, 07:22 AM
@orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) I wonder if you know how extremely condescending and arrogant you sound. "Pff all these pathetic little people bellow my level, why do they even talk to me?" Maybe step down from the pedestal you put yourself on a little bit, why don't you?

Yeah, how dare a woman have self-respect and a sense of worth? TAKE AWAY THEIR VOTES.

Also, using your own words, "I wonder if you know how much of a fedora-wearing, Reddit-dwelling fat fuck you sound."

telee.kom
08-15-2015, 07:26 AM
are you into victim blaming, too? what on earth has she done to ask for the attention of these people who are obviously out to gain something for themselves? nothing. so why should she have to deal with their bullshit?

What the hell are you talking about? Sure, you are such a poor child who need to withstand all these compliments and attention of other people. Truly horrible. Here, take a kleenex


Yeah, how dare a woman have self-respect and a sense of worth? TAKE AWAY THEIR VOTES.

Also, using your own words, "I wonder if you know how much of a fedora-wearing, Reddit-dwelling fat fuck you sound."

So acting like an arrogant prick equals having a self respect? The new things I learn on this board

Khrz
08-15-2015, 07:49 AM
Have you read any of her posts or just decided to get angry that she wasn't satisfied with that kind of interactions at her workplace ?

telee.kom
08-15-2015, 07:55 AM
I'm not angry, I'm just saying that she sounds arrogant because she does.


this guy who just had to let me know I was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen-classic fuckboy delivery-and he asked if I had a boyfriend. I told him no and he automatically thought he was in so he asked for my number. I had to clarify that I had a girlfriend and this dumbass still asked for my number.

I mean, if you don't think this sounds condescending, than I don't know what does.

Or you're trying to tell me that if I said "this girl who just had to let me know I was the most beautiful man she'd ever seen-classic stupid cunt delivery-and she asked if I had a girlfriend. I told him no and she automatically thought she was in so she asked for my number. I had to clarify that I had a girlfriend and this dumbass still asked for my number." I wouldn't be for complete asshole?

Khrz
08-15-2015, 08:23 AM
You can't just reverse-gender a statement, due to the vast differences between how each gender handles and experiences daily interactions.

More often than not when I get a compliment/comment, which is once every blue moon, fucking me isn't the endgame.
More often than not when women get a compliment/comment, which is every day, the subtext is "let's bone".

My reaction isn't equivalent to @orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) reaction. You act as if men and women are treated and behaving equally. They are not, and they do not.

How you wouldn't know that, how you wouldn't have witnessed that, how lady friends of yours wouldn't have mentioned it in passing to you is baffling to me.

Every woman that I've known, friends and girlfriends alike, have had to deal with flirting, innuendos, unwelcome touching of the hair or clothes, sex jokes, prying, and questions about their intimacy and relationship status (quickly followed in some cases with the dismissal of said relationship) in the workplace, in the streets...
How often does that happen to you ? In the last ten years ?

Sarah K
08-15-2015, 09:38 AM
Can we just make him his own thread so he can jerk himself off without being a complete and total asshole to everyone else?

Fuck.

Swykk
08-15-2015, 09:42 AM
@orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) I wonder if you know how extremely condescending and arrogant you sound. "Pff all these pathetic little people bellow my level, why do they even talk to me?" Maybe step down from the pedestal you put yourself on a little bit, why don't you?

I thought you weren't posting in this thread anymore. That was a good move. For all five minutes it lasted.

Khrz
08-15-2015, 09:43 AM
There was a forum where, beside a public forum and a Clique one, there were two private subs dedicated and restricted to each gender, which was hilarious because as thriving as the women's one apparently was, the guys' forum was filled with "soooo.... What's up ? Nuthin. Okay cool, cool" posts.

That probably wouldn't work here, it's not quite that kind of community, but seriously that thread would totally belong in a Womens Only private sub.

Swykk
08-15-2015, 09:48 AM
I'm a dude as is eversonpoe, and we have been quite supportive (him more vocally than me). I'm not sure that's the answer.

Khrz
08-15-2015, 09:53 AM
I'm a dude as is @eversonpoe (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=588), and we have been quite supportive (him more vocally than me). I'm not sure that's the answer.

I wasn't really serious.

But honestly, I don't think our support is necessary or vital enough to outweigh such disruptions. We merely comment from the sidelines (well, I do). We're apparently welcome, but we're not needed.
I don't know if that's the answer, but nothing of real value would be lost, in my opinion.

Swykk
08-15-2015, 09:57 AM
I wasn't sure as I don't know you too well. You're coming at it from a "greater good" perspective which makes sense.

orestes
08-15-2015, 11:27 AM
Can we just make him his own thread so he can jerk himself off without being a complete and total asshole to everyone else?

Fuck.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLzuMCdWsAA9uYN.jpg

marodi
08-15-2015, 01:50 PM
@orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) I wonder if you know how extremely condescending and arrogant you sound. "Pff all these pathetic little people bellow my level, why do they even talk to me?" Maybe step down from the pedestal you put yourself on a little bit, why don't you?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not or if it's a cultural thing but I do believe that you don't understand feminism in particular and women in general.

The anecdote orestes told us is a perfect example of the "she says no but really means yes" culture, the one that has led and still leads to countless cases of sexual harassment and rape. This is the subtext I read in her post while all you saw was her being "condescending and arrogant". This is why feminism is still important and still has its place in society.

Meanwhile, in women's rights news: 11-year-old rape victim who was denied abortion (because stupid men think Jesus wants rape victims to suffer, especially little girls) gives birth (http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/13/americas/paraguay-young-rape-victim-gives-birth/index.html). Paraguay officials are quick to tell "see? She's fine and the baby is fine. Nothing to see here".

So much work yet to be done...

Cat Mom
08-15-2015, 04:05 PM
he asked if I had a boyfriend. I told him no

[another guy] tries to play 20 Questions with me, asking how is he supposed to get to know me if I don't give him a chance
Is there a way that, instead of answering these people or allowing them any leeway, you can shut that conversation down with a polite (rehearsed) "I'm sorry, employees are not allowed to discuss these kinds of personal matters, it violates company policy" or something like that? Keep everything on a very professional level and continue to remind them that you are a professional, at work?

telee.kom
08-15-2015, 04:20 PM
You can't just reverse-gender a statement, due to the vast differences between how each gender handles and experiences daily interactions.

More often than not when I get a compliment/comment, which is once every blue moon, fucking me isn't the endgame.
More often than not when women get a compliment/comment, which is every day, the subtext is "let's bone".

My reaction isn't equivalent to @orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) reaction. You act as if men and women are treated and behaving equally. They are not, and they do not.

How you wouldn't know that, how you wouldn't have witnessed that, how lady friends of yours wouldn't have mentioned it in passing to you is baffling to me.

Every woman that I've known, friends and girlfriends alike, have had to deal with flirting, innuendos, unwelcome touching of the hair or clothes, sex jokes, prying, and questions about their intimacy and relationship status (quickly followed in some cases with the dismissal of said relationship) in the workplace, in the streets...
How often does that happen to you ? In the last ten years ?

Aaand this is complete bullshit. You're basically saying that women are allowed to be assholes because they are women. Is this the equality we are all fighting for? I understand that women usually hear more compliments and they have more attention than man, but come on, do you really think it's okay to think of people who compliment you as "fuckboys" and dumbasses? That's all I'm saying. Maybe the guy wants to sleep with you, so fucking what? As long as he's not an asshole about it, why would you act as some kind of untouchable being who is offended that somebody is trying to say that you're pretty? And I'm saying this as someone who never done this in my entire life, since I find it awkward and weird and maybe even stupid. But I find it equally stupid to act as though you're such a superstar you can see people who're trying to compliment you as idiots. I mean don't you see that? I sometimes feel that people are against me just because.. no real argument or anything, I'm just saying my opinion so you gotta think of something that would be against what I'm saying.

And since this is not really a feminist issue I felt like I could say something.

orestes
08-15-2015, 04:22 PM
allegro Hmmm I'll have to test it out.

Sarah K
08-15-2015, 04:27 PM
Let's stop referring to bullshit like that as "complimenting" someone. GTFO.

slave2thewage
08-15-2015, 04:28 PM
You're basically saying that women are allowed to be assholes because they are women. Is this the equality we are all fighting for?

Help, help, the straight white man is being repressed.

telee.kom
08-15-2015, 04:29 PM
Well I wasn't there so I wouldn't know, but if somebody told you that you're the most beautiful women, isn't that a compliment or something?
slave2thewage why? this isn't about gender at all, just don't act like an asshole. period

Sarah K
08-15-2015, 04:33 PM
Well she was there. Maybe go back and read what happened to her...

I don't think that you're an authority on not acting like an asshole.

telee.kom
08-15-2015, 04:38 PM
Well tell me Sarah, where was I acting like an asshole? Because I always refrained of any personal attacks, which can't be really said about lot of people in this thread towards me. When you say about someone that he/she's arrogant, that's hardly even insult, that's just description or depiction of things.

slave2thewage
08-15-2015, 04:39 PM
I fail to see how saying politely saying "no" to some asshat pestering you for a date (which will inevitably be him trying to get his cock out at every available opportunity and then he will never call again) makes her some kind of "asshole".

telee.kom
08-15-2015, 04:45 PM
Saying "no" is not. Talking about the guy as fuckboy and dumbass (or asshat for that matter) is.

slave2thewage
08-15-2015, 05:02 PM
Saying "no" is not. Talking about the guy as fuckboy and dumbass (or asshat for that matter) is.
I don't think you're quite grasping the subject. Orestes was at work, ergo she had to maintain some politeness for this guy being all up in her face. This is her personal time, so she can call this anonymous fucker whatever she wants.

Sarah K
08-15-2015, 05:04 PM
You're an asshole because you continually troll this thread. Just like you did in the other one, to the point of it getting shut down and a new one started.

Yes, we know that you are very oppressed and life would be so much easier if these dumb cunts would just respond to your "compliments".

If someone is acting like a fuckboy, there is no harm in pointing that out. Not responding the way you want her to doesn't mean she is responding wrong. You don't get to tell her how to feel about it, or how to respond to it. It isn't your place. And she can respond, or ignore him, however she wants. He isn't entitled to her time, attention, or even a response.

orestes
08-15-2015, 05:14 PM
@telee.kom (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3032) I'm going to be brief because I'm not used to this stifling heat down here off my pedestal. Also, this view sucks, oh my god.

I'm done with you. I'm done with your faux intellectualism, devil's advocate bullshit that you try to spin as discussion. I'm done with trying to engage with someone who only wants to hear themselves rage against the machine. I'm done with you creating a toxic space, in what should be a safe haven for discussion.

So with that in mind, take your trash attitude and get the fuck off my board. Your attitude and behavior are better suited on a MRA board or 4chan.

http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2f3ukzD3R1qmywdio1_500.jpg

Mantra
08-16-2015, 12:23 AM
Oooooh... http://www.startribune.com/target-to...les/321063071/

Target is removing gender based labeling in the toy aisles. For now, it will remain on the website, though.

Hey, did you hear about the guy who pretended to be Target on Facebook in order to troll idiots who were pissed off about this?

http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/man-poses-target-facebook-trolls-haters-its-gender-neutral-move-epic-replies-166364

Some of the funniest shit I've read in forever. "We at Target believe the socialist agenda is a righteous cause and we fully support it!"...."Sherry we at Target apologize for nothing. NOTHING."

lolllllllllll

tony.parente
08-16-2015, 12:37 AM
So with that in mind, take your trash attitude and get the fuck off my board. Your attitude and behavior are better suited on a MRA board or 4chan.


http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/rara.gif

playwithfire
08-16-2015, 12:48 AM
Matt McGorry is so wonderful: https://twitter.com/mattmcgorry

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/11894481_10155854626610364_8268961979304487301_o.j pg

Sallos
08-16-2015, 05:51 AM
wow, McCringy. Is he a fuckboy?

playwithfire
08-16-2015, 06:43 AM
Uh, no. Do you know what a fuckboy is?

"Fuckboys are mostly heterosexual young men who use sexist language, throw around homophobic slurs, think all girls are either sluts or objects, thinks rape jokes are funny,believes the friend zone is real,usually are quite misogynistic and embody ignorance on every level."

playwithfire
08-16-2015, 07:09 AM
This is very very good and something I post occasionally.

Schrodinger's Rapist (http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/)

Sallos
08-16-2015, 08:13 AM
This is very very good and something I post occasionally.

Schrodinger's Rapist (http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/)

What i got from that article is this, ugly/socially awkward men please don't approach women. When a woman approaches a good looking man she's not worried about him being a schrodinger's rapists and when women get approached by charismatic men, like Ted Bundy, they're not thinking about them as schrodinger's rapist either.

Meanwhile most men, if they want to have any sucess dating, they need to approach, i've met probably about 5 or 6 girlfriends in the train,metro, beach or shopping mall, if i had read that article i probably wouldn't approach women at all. Then again, where i come from women are not as scared to get get raped or murdered. Most women i've approached either showed interest, through eye contact or other signal telling me they would be receptive to my approaching.

What i would suggest to men though, instead of reading that article, would be to improve themselves as individuals.

Also, us men also have an equivalent to schrodinger's rapist, the psycho girlfriend, but that doesn't stop us from approaching women, though we do need to be wary of much red flags, some of which would be considered mysoginistic.

What im trying to say is that the realtionship and sex dynamics (also race/religion/guns/etc.) in the US seemed to be awfully connected to fear. Not just that but in the US fear is probably the best selling tactic, mastered by politicians and media alike. And it seems most people fall for it. For instance the 1 in 4 (or 3/5/6) statiscit is widely used, even though if im not mistaked was proven to be quite unreliable, even the folks who conducted the study said it's being wrongfully used and quoted.

Cat Mom
08-16-2015, 08:28 AM
This is a troll game; each time we post something we know as truth for us, they attempt to refute it as garbage, hence calling us hysterical females easily swayed by media because they falsely assume that nothing has ever actually happened to us. They project each posted article onto themselves, instead of using empathy to understand us (because they fear disrupting the status quo).

It's just more trolling.

Also, there is a HUGE cultural difference in some countries vs. the U.S.

That being said, I don't advocate name-calling as a positive mature feminist motive ("fuckboy"). I can't bristle at being called a "bitch" or a "cunt" by males, and then turn around and do the same stupid shit. It backfires. Watch out.

playwithfire
08-16-2015, 08:49 AM
I just keep thinking I can like discuss it and share our perspective and progress and yeah. Hell @Volband (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3656) has been pretty cool in the thread's new incarnation.

I think it is 100% reasonable to call someone who hits on you when you have told them you aren't interested and/or harasses you a fuckboy. They are being a fuckboy.

playwithfire
08-16-2015, 08:51 AM
Most women i've approached either showed interest, through eye contact or other signal telling me they would be receptive to my approaching.

This is the thing, though, they're showing you that they're receptive! The article says that is fine/I don't think any of us care about that. You're not making them take their headphones off or approaching them when they're walking alone at night or (I'd assume) ignoring them when they tell you they aren't interested/they have a boyfriend/etc.

Cat Mom
08-16-2015, 08:53 AM
.I think it is 100% reasonable to call someone who hits on you when you have told them you aren't interested and/or harasses you a fuckboy.
I think it was been defined here way beyond that, using a derogatory term that does not involve fucking any boys. And I am sure that many males can compose an essay defending their use of "cunt." Just sayin'. Maybe calling these guys "jerks" (as has been typical in history) "predators," "misogynists," etc., but beyond that is kinda high school. It sounds like something somebody made up while they were drunk.

I agree about Volband, he is pretty cool. As are the other (not-troll) guys in this thread, many of whom live outside the U.S.

playwithfire
08-16-2015, 09:00 AM
I hear you, but nope, I love the word. Fuck (making shit all sexual) boy (immature). It's this perfect catchall word for the kind of behavior you see on straightwhiteboystexting.tumblr.com (which I keep bringing up because it's perfect) more so than any other word.

Calling a woman bitch/cunt (tbh I love the word cunt) is punching down. Calling a fuckboy a fuckboy? Not punching down.

Cat Mom
08-16-2015, 09:05 AM
Ugh, it's a Tumblr word, ok. Nevermind.

You also said "fuckboys" make homophobic slurs, which is just more defending the het status quo. If I said "fuckboy" to anybody else outside a small internet presence, the Oxford English Dictionary would cough.

Cunt is okay when we take the word back and use it ourselves. I have the book, "Cunt." LOL.

http://www.amazon.com/Cunt-Declaration-Independence-Expanded-Updated/dp/1580050751

playwithfire
08-16-2015, 09:24 AM
You also said "fuckboys" make homophobic slurs, which is just more defending the het status quo. If I said "fuckboy" to anybody else outside a small internet presence, the Oxford English Dictionary would cough

Well, it's an understood phrase among my echochamber friend group, but sure. Many fuckboys use homophobic slurs. A thing I quoted did say that. Not sure if you mean that I'm defending the het status quo or the fuckboys are, though.

icklekitty
08-16-2015, 09:27 AM
The only good thing Germaine Greer ever said was that cunt, in its insultingness, was empowering.

I do agree with @Sallos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=776) that men should work on improving themselves to get better at dating rather than projecting insecurities, and I think he has a point about the American culture of fear. There's a lot of dumb shit I feel safe doing here that I don't think I would in America. I've read that the reason for a lot of gender strength differences in the US and UK is that we're used to having females in positions of power (queens, prime ministers). It's not perfect of course, but female dominance/power is a demonstrated thing here more than there.

Cat Mom
08-16-2015, 09:28 AM
Not sure if you mean that I'm defending the het status quo or the fuckboys are, though.
No, you aren't; homophobes are. Homophobes being a term that people outside of Tumblr can comprehend. :p

orestes
08-16-2015, 09:33 AM
The only good thing Germaine Greer ever said was that cunt, in its insultingness, was empowering.

I do agree with @Sallos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=776) that men should work on improving themselves to get better at dating rather than projecting insecurities, and I think he has a point about the American culture of fear. There's a lot of dumb shit I feel safe doing here that I don't think I would in America. I've read that the reason for a lot of gender strength differences in the US and UK is that we're used to having females in positions of power (queens, prime ministers). It's not perfect of course, but female dominance/power is a demonstrated thing here more than there.

Same thing with bitch. Whenever someone has called me one, I shoot back with a "thank you". :)

Aladdinsanity
08-17-2015, 04:31 PM
Man, something about "fuckboy" being used outside of AAVE makes me really uncomfortable. It's originally an AAVE term, no? I'm willing to be corrected on this.

Cat Mom
08-17-2015, 04:40 PM
Man, something about "fuckboy" being used outside of AAVE makes me really uncomfortable. It's originally an AAVE term, no? I'm willing to be corrected on this.

Yeah, I guess it is an old AAVE word (http://blackfairypresident.tumblr.com/post/121785050024).

Ryan
08-17-2015, 06:28 PM
Ever since I heard or read somewhere that we're all initially born female then it comes down to chance if our boobs grow or not, or something like that, I've come to terms that we're all male-female hybrids and there is no better or lesser sex.

Baphomette
08-17-2015, 06:44 PM
E (http://everydayfeminism.com/get-involved/write-for-magazine/)veryday Feminism is looking for writers (http://everydayfeminism.com/get-involved/write-for-magazine/). Paid position, for once.

orestes
08-17-2015, 08:09 PM
And we wonder why rape is under-reported. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/virginia-wesleyan-rape-victim_55c7a759e4b0923c12bd3241)

Timinator
08-17-2015, 09:25 PM
Australia has laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superannuation_in_Australia) that compel employers to "pay" a percentage (currently 9.5%, but rising) of each employee's salary into a retirement fund that the employee can't normally access until they need it in old age. It's government-enforced retirement saving, and means Australians have some of the most money saved for their retirement. This scheme is called superannuation, or just super.

There is a flaw in this scheme, however, in that it's tied to payroll earnings. Women - here as in most other places - tend to earn less over their lifetimes for several reasons: because of the gender pay gap, because they have to take time off for childbirth, because they often take paid workplace breaks to rear children, etc. So women end up retiring with much less super saved up than men do.

One Australian employer, though - ANZ Bank - has started to positively discriminate in favour of its women employees (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/financial-services/anz-bank-launches-a-super-deal-for-female-employees/story-fn91wd6x-1227460840565), paying them more super so that their retirement funding will end up more balance. Good on them. Check out the handful of comments at the end of the article, though.

icklekitty
08-18-2015, 09:43 AM
Doubly super if you don't want to breed!

Sallos
08-18-2015, 02:41 PM
Ever since I heard or read somewhere that we're all initially born female then it comes down to chance if our boobs grow or not, or something like that, I've come to terms that we're all male-female hybrids and there is no better or lesser sex.

No, from what i understand we're initially asexual or sex neutral. while the sex of the fetus is determined by the xx/xy chromosome combination, the sex organs start out looking female and then later the penis/testicles develope in the xy (male) fetus. This is different from having the fetus begin as female and then become male.

playwithfire
08-18-2015, 04:36 PM
Yeah, I guess it is an old AAVE word (http://blackfairypresident.tumblr.com/post/121785050024).

Oh! :( I didn't know that.

Someone make a non-appropriative but still mean and funny word that means the same thing as the way most people I know use it, plz.

eversonpoe
08-18-2015, 05:08 PM
Oh! :( I didn't know that.

Someone make a non-appropriative but still mean and funny word that means the same thing as the way most people I know use it, plz.

my wife (who never swears) really likes the term "dicknose" (it's from an episode of it's always sunny). not sure it's quite the right thing, but it's a good catch-all. i also like using "ass-butt" (which is from supernatural) and just makes me laugh every time i hear it.

also, men are pathetic (http://eversonpoe.tumblr.com/post/126995091083/rad-and-pregnant-recoveringlibfem).

playwithfire
08-18-2015, 05:12 PM
Those are both mean but not specific enough. But yeah, nope, I'm not gonna use appropriative language when it's avoidable.

Aladdinsanity
08-18-2015, 05:26 PM
I'm all for there being a term to describe said dudes being described the past couple pages. There definitely needs to be one since they are a specific kind of asshole that (sadly) isn't really uncommon.

orestes
08-18-2015, 06:26 PM
Content warning: It was easier to give in than keep running. (http://ibelieveyouitsnotyourfault.tumblr.com/post/95389261470/it-was-easier-to-give-in-than-keep-running)

Swykk
08-18-2015, 06:27 PM
my wife (who never swears) really likes the term "dicknose" (it's from an episode of it's always sunny). not sure it's quite the right thing, but it's a good catch-all. i also like using "ass-butt" (which is from supernatural) and just makes me laugh every time i hear it.

also, men are pathetic (http://eversonpoe.tumblr.com/post/126995091083/rad-and-pregnant-recoveringlibfem).

Points for "assbutt."

Ryan
08-18-2015, 09:06 PM
No, from what i understand we're initially asexual or sex neutral. while the sex of the fetus is determined by the xx/xy chromosome combination, the sex organs start out looking female and then later the penis/testicles develope in the xy (male) fetus. This is different from having the fetus begin as female and then become male.

Damn. I prefer my version.

eversonpoe
08-18-2015, 10:22 PM
Content warning: It was easier to give in than keep running. (http://ibelieveyouitsnotyourfault.tumblr.com/post/95389261470/it-was-easier-to-give-in-than-keep-running)

that was really heavy but a good read. crying a little.

orestes
08-19-2015, 05:30 PM
Heh heh heh. (http://www.topatoco.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TO&Product_Code=MOEN-WANDS&Category_Code=MOEN)

playwithfire
08-20-2015, 01:29 PM
YEP.

Content warning for sexual harassment:I'm tired of being kind to creepy men in order to stay safe. (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/sexual-harassment-women-curfew?CMP=share_btn_fb)

Lew
08-21-2015, 04:38 PM
Oh! :( I didn't know that.

Someone make a non-appropriative but still mean and funny word that means the same thing as the way most people I know use it, plz.

trouser trolls
desperate dicks (dd)
cock deaf
dry dick

dry dick deaf

i like that one best, personally

elevenism
08-21-2015, 06:13 PM
Yes, but this is the feminist thread, so we're talking about orestes' experience with tattoos while at work, with males coming up to her while she's at work and bugging her at work and actually touching her and invading her personal space, wasting her time while she's on the company clock, etc.

And all of this is disrespectful to her in a number of ways, and all of it pretty much says "I'm not taking the fact that you are working right now very seriously, because I am not respecting you."

That being said, G and I were at a restaurant / bar last Saturday night and we had a cute female waitperson who was obviously very very nervous and she finally admitted, when I tried to help her be a little less nervous, that it was only her third day on the job, and I told her she was doing a great job. It was busy, and there was a jazz trio in front of us, and we ended up joining tables with a couple next to us who were a LOT of fun, and I asked our waitperson about her really cute collar of tattoos, just to kind of break the ice a little, and that worked to some extent, and she told us about them, the older guy next to us asked what her parents thought and she's told us about that, so in HER line of work, as a cocktail / food server, it worked. We were giving her funny advice like when she brought over a shaker of martinis she was just going to pour them ('the bartender already shook this, so ...") and we said, "nooooo, you gotta shake the shaker, too, like Tom Cruise in 'Cocktail', it'll get you more tips!" and the bartender was laughing and giving her Thumbs-up and stuff. So it all depends on the venue, etc., but dudes in retail, noooooooooo.

We each left that gal a HUUUUUUUUUGE tip, btw.

Yes yes yes I see that now allegro . I just talk too fucking much. And I goddamn sure wasn't trying to be disrespectful to orestes . But I wish that if you were gonna call me out on something like this that you would quote it so I would see it. Keep in mind, I'm a southern dude and

elevenism
08-21-2015, 06:15 PM
Don't let my long hair and liberal views fool you. I'm still a fairly isolated country boy and I'm still learning.

Cat Mom
08-21-2015, 06:16 PM
Yes yes yes I see that now allegro . I just talk too fucking much. And I goddamn sure wasn't trying to be disrespectful to orestes . But I wish that if you were gonna call me out on something like this that you would quote it so I would see it.
See your posts right before mine.

Edit: EIGHT DAYS AGO. And I posted my response from A PHONE. And it wasn't about you.

elevenism
08-21-2015, 06:22 PM
See your posts right before mine.

I see them! And I see what you mean. My poi nt is that I didn't see it for some days. I'm saying do a post quote or mentio so I will notice. What if I hadn't come back to this thread for years and didn't ever realize I was being a tool? Then your words would be wasted

eversonpoe
08-22-2015, 11:04 AM
Oh! :( I didn't know that.

Someone make a non-appropriative but still mean and funny word that means the same thing as the way most people I know use it, plz.

posted this on your FB too, but i wanted to get it in here.

http://jezebel.com/the-definition-of-fuckboy-is-not-what-bad-trend-pieces-1725157828

playwithfire
08-22-2015, 11:38 AM
Yeah, I did read it and thought it was great, but didn't really form any clear thoughts. Thanks for sharing, though. :) Basically, I feel like I was using fuckboy correctly but I still don't know if I should be saying it in the first place, so will avoid.


trouser trolls
desperate dicks (dd)
cock deaf
dry dick

dry dick deaf

i like that one best, personally

Good suggestions! But I wouldn't want to use deaf, either. That's a disability metaphor. (http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/11/ableist-language-matters/)

eversonpoe
08-22-2015, 03:22 PM
Yeah, I did read it and thought it was great, but didn't really form any clear thoughts. Thanks for sharing, though. :) Basically, I feel like I was using fuckboy correctly but I still don't know if I should be saying it in the first place, so will avoid.

yeah, i agree, but it still made me feel a LITTLE better.


Good suggestions! But I wouldn't want to use deaf, either. That's a disability metaphor. (http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/11/ableist-language-matters/)

with you on that. i like trouser trolls and desperate dicks a lot. i mean, as phrases. i don't like those things. :|

slave2thewage
08-22-2015, 04:07 PM
Desperate Dicks sounds like gay porn, to be frank. Like, one of those no-budget Czech ones.

playwithfire
08-22-2015, 04:55 PM
heh

The best thing I can think of (and it's already a word) is "shitheel" but it just doesn't have the same ring to it. :(

My favorite GENERAL insult for people is "human garbage*" but that's just too broad.

*because it's super fucking mean and as a bonus is non-appropriative/gendered. :D

playwithfire
08-23-2015, 04:44 PM
https://40.media.tumblr.com/90bc5b35665c40728499569cdf3f8da6/tumblr_nrr203lvGK1r8zr0ko1_1280.jpg

halloween
08-23-2015, 07:58 PM
That post is appropriate to a conversation I was having with my sister about being in Brazil and their incredibly high standards of female beauty. I wanted to post this at first in the body image thread because it has to do with the fact that I don't shave my arm pits. My mother still thinks it's "unhygienic" for women to have unshaven armpits. I really don't know why she thinks it's ok for men but not for women. I was talking to my sister that it might cost me being able to find a boyfriend here but at this rate I really really don't care. I've already had one man love me and if that's the last boyfriend I have, then so be it. It may just take running into some international hippy types to not give a shit about my body hair...I know there's a Burning Man that happens in Brazil and getting involved with that community is giving me hope that I'll find like minded Brazilians after all. My sister thankfully is the best ever and allows me to be who I am, so if anything, I'll always have her!

playwithfire
08-23-2015, 08:35 PM
Haha, so this is weird but my favorite photo of you is actually one where you have blatantly unshaved underarms. So like, do with that what you will.

It may be different not-in-the-US but realizing how little most (worthwhile) people actually care about legs/underarm hair was news to me in college, honestly.

Baphomette
08-24-2015, 12:42 AM
My mother still thinks it's "unhygienic" for women to have unshaven armpits.Hahahaha. Must be a cultural thing. My mom feels the same way. I must have about 20 unopened bottles of Veet and Nair that's she given me over the past couple of years. :D

playwithfire
08-24-2015, 10:18 AM
So, Times Square has had topless performers for a bit and people are being complete idiots over it. Here's the latest. (NSFW) (http://gothamist.com/2015/08/24/nypd_officers_took_painted_womens_c.php)

WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS 100% LEGAL

"Three women who pose painted and topless for tips in Times Square (http://gothamist.com/2015/08/23/topless_painted_women_return_to_tim.php#photo-1) say that ten undercover police officers collected and removed their clothing, purses, cellphones and wallets from the pedestrian plaza at 42nd Street last Wednesday night, while they were using the bathroom at a nearby parking garage. The women had to walk nine blocks in their paint and robes to the Midtown South precinct in order to retrieve their possessions. There, before returning any items, detectives questioned them each separately in an interrogation room. None of the women had been formally arrested."

I hate everything.

Sarah K
08-24-2015, 10:22 AM
de Blasio better cool it with this shit. I love him so much, but this whole thing is incredibly stupid. I cannot believe that he's doing this, honestly.

playwithfire
08-24-2015, 10:53 AM
Yeah, it's incredibly disappointing. I wonder if it's pressure from Cuomo or what. It seems so unlike him. :(

tony.parente
08-26-2015, 12:00 PM
http://i.imgur.com/N0svNjP.jpg
Facebook decided to troll me today. Reminded me of when Sarah K bought me a book on feminism for the ets secret Santa lol

Sarah K
08-26-2015, 12:08 PM
Facebook decided to troll me today. Reminded me of when @Sarah K (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3236) bought me a book on feminism for the ets secret Santa lol


Lolol... Btw, I found the half of your present that I never sent while I was moving. Send me your address(the correct one this time), bruh.

WorzelG
08-30-2015, 12:56 PM
Eek - Chrissie Hynde, just please stop talking!
http://www.vulture.com/2015/08/chrissie-hynde-says-rape-can-be-a-womans-fault.html
a lot of people think this though, no fuck it, you could be out in a dark alley with a sign saying 'fuck me now' hanging over you, you still don't deserve to be raped, or were asking for it. This drives me mad, the idea that men can't be trusted to keep their dick in their trousers, so don't do anything that might entice them - dress modestly, fuck that!

Volband
09-02-2015, 01:17 PM
edit: nope.jpg

icklekitty
09-03-2015, 08:39 AM
Eek - Chrissie Hynde, just please stop talking!
http://www.vulture.com/2015/08/chrissie-hynde-says-rape-can-be-a-womans-fault.html
a lot of people think this though, no fuck it, you could be out in a dark alley with a sign saying 'fuck me now' hanging over you, you still don't deserve to be raped, or were asking for it. This drives me mad, the idea that men can't be trusted to keep their dick in their trousers, so don't do anything that might entice them - dress modestly, fuck that!


I've heard comments that say this is her way of doing what all victims do - blaming herself. That's the only universe where I can see this as anywhere near acceptable (still, pretty fucking far from acceptable).

playwithfire
09-07-2015, 08:43 AM
Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/playing-devils-advocate/?utm_content=bufferbf263&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

Cat Mom
09-07-2015, 10:22 AM
Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/playing-devils-advocate/?utm_content=bufferbf263&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

Wow, I wish I could "Like" that 100 times.

eversonpoe
09-08-2015, 01:59 PM
Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism

(http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/playing-devils-advocate/?utm_content=bufferbf263&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

"If you’re a feminist who spends any amount of time on the Internet, you know exactly what I’m talking about: You post that article about the wage gap (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/wage-gap-not-a-myth/) on Facebook, and all of a sudden, all of these cis, white, straight dudes come out of the woodwork to remind you that the statistics are faulty (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-78-cents-wage-gap-means/), that women take more time off of work, that women just don’t like STEM fields – all under the guise of “playing devil’s advocate” – as if you’ve never heard these arguments before."

gee, do we know anyone like that? :rolleyes:

Sallos
09-08-2015, 02:17 PM
I know plenty who haven't fall into the wage gap myth, hopefully we will be meeting much more.

eversonpoe
09-10-2015, 08:58 AM
Teen Girl Band Gives Epic Response To Judge Who Told Them To “Use The Sultry” (http://www.thefrisky.com/2015-09-09/teen-girl-band-gives-epic-response-to-judge-who-told-them-to-use-the-sultry/)

Baphomette
09-13-2015, 08:59 PM
Texas health workers turn in undocumented woman during gynecology appointment (http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/no-patient-privacy-texas-health-workers-turn-in-undocumented-woman-during-gynecology-appointment/)

Legal vaginas only.

playwithfire
09-14-2015, 12:20 AM
Jesus christ, no.

tony.parente
09-16-2015, 01:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqRcd30ycNY&feature=youtu.be
This is awesome.

Volband
09-19-2015, 08:49 AM
Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism

(http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/09/playing-devils-advocate/?utm_content=bufferbf263&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)
This article is fighting fire with fire. I labeled this as a USA thing, but recent events in Europe showed that we are just as perfectly capable of creating two radical and twisted viewpoints, so people can fight each other mindlessly.

At first I thought I have a problem with feminism, but turns out there are a million and one type of feminism, so I can't just label a whole movement for it's radical doings - like this article, which is just as narrow-minded as the men it's trying to bash. Then I thought it must be "MURICA", cuz you know, freedom and such must make people so bored out of their mind they can't do anything with their free time. But since shit hit the fan in Europe, it's pretty obvious that the main problem lies within us, humans (and in our society).

I complained that it's literally impossible to argue - or even to talk sometimes - with some people here, unless I am saying word by word what they'd like to hear (anyone seen the new SP episode, especially the bathroom scene?), but could I have a decent discussion with my fellow countrymen about the migrant-crysis? No, the discussion's would turn out exactly the way some of them turned out in this (or the previous) thread.

Khrz
09-19-2015, 10:05 AM
The thing is, the internet isn't a place for debate. It's an awful tool when it comes to discussing and arguing contradicting opinions.
Either you make it short and to the point and everyone more or less is left to interpret where you're coming from, either you go into TL : DR territory and nobody will bother to read a page worth of opinion piece.

About the fighting fire with fire : I fundamentally agree with you. I see it in posts about race issues, socio-economic ones, gender identity and equality...
And I do think that fundamentally we shouldn't try to outdo the "opponent" in that kind of debate.

But, and perhaps you're in the same position as me in this case, this is coming from a white hetero man in a reasonably comfortable social standing.
That means we never had to care*, and we were never confronted to a skewed view of who we are. We never had to worry about everyone's perception of who we were. We're fundamentally accepted by our peers, our culture, our nation, our media. We never had anything to prove or to fight. There are no weird rumors about us, no insulting clichés.
We never had to deal with society's passive hostility.

So as much as I hate seeing Men, or Whites, or CIS people being shoved in a bag, as much as I hate the neo-clichés being shouted by the most extreme SJWs, as much as I roll my eyes every time I see cultural bleedthrough being shot down as cultural appropriation, I just believe this is the pendulum swinging the other way. There's no way to reach an equilibrium without it, too many people will just ignore all reasonable pleas.

After a while, maybe, hopefully, everyone will be able to discuss it calmly and listen to each other. Now isn't the time though, and the people who feel they have been ignored and dismissed for far too long are now fighting back. And if some of them are not being reasonable or level-headed about it, maybe it's because nobody cared when they tried to be cool about it before.

So, for now, if you really want to discuss and debate the merits and faults of feminism for instance, your best bet is to find actual countrymen and actually talk about it. It's already hard enough to have a discussion about minor subjects without being misinterpreted, you can't expect to have everyone listen to your controversial opinion on a difficult topic...


* : And I obviously mean "us" as a demographic, not as individuals.

Volband
09-19-2015, 12:30 PM
Yeah, the final nail in my coffin was the pain I felt while reading through the saying fuckboy is totally fine, saying bitch is not "arguments" here. It was some serious double-standard, which is rather ironic. But you might be right, maybe it is the sensation of change what warrants such statements. It's not even a might be, it is the time when things are happening, so people stampede over anyone who seems to threaten these ideas.

In a way it is fascinating, that depending on the time and place, someone can be a hero or a villain for the same exact sentences. But what ultimately scares me, that debates about feminism, homosexuals, transgenders, immigrants, ethnicities are not about humans, but ideas. Even if parts of the construct which makes up the whole idea are flawed, you have to think thrice whether to dare and question it or not, because you can be sure, that you will face the accusations of you being against the whole idea.

I just don't understand why people make a fucking contest out of everything nowadays. These should be serious issues which are best to approach from a million viewpoints with open minds, so we - together - could get closer to - if not the most, but still - the optimal solution. Instead, it's a race, where the winner is whomever can annihilate the other one. However, after your post, I kinda understand now why I don't understand it.

And it's mainly not about this thread, it is more than okay to have a little "guild" here, to use an MMO term, but the same thing is going on in real life, and the "we are just a couple people wanting to discuss things our way" explanation just doesn't cut it, when it involves hundreds of millions people.

Khrz
09-19-2015, 02:06 PM
The way I see it, it's like a bar brawl.

You and I are in the bully's gang. That just happened, we don't agree with the guy, we were just there and there's no getting back.
After being an asshole to every underdog who came into "his" bar for years, the guy's getting kicked in the nads every now and then.

And maybe every kick isn't warranted. Maybe some punches are a bit too vicious sometimes. But hell, the guy's been a sadistic dickhead way too long.
And because we're part of his crew, it's not our place to tell anyone to chill out. As soon as we'll intervene, we'll be part of the fight, and on the wrong side of it as far as I'm concerned. As I said, we're wearing the guy's colors.

So yeah, let that guy get kicked down. More often than not he had it coming.
As far as I'm concerned, that racist, sexist, homophobic son of a bitch needs to get some sense slammed into his head. Talking him into it didn't work out, wearing cute badges didn't either.

When the balance has been tipped for too long, when the people snap, they'll throw all the weight they have to change the balance, to not get short-changed. Those aren't times for clever debates and dispassionate analysis. It would be great if it worked that way, but it never has.
It's a great time to reflect on the way we think, on the way things are, to wonder how things should be. When the dust settles we'll be there, and maybe we'll have something worthy to share then. But I don't think that now is our time to speak up, honestly.

Cat Mom
09-19-2015, 04:51 PM
For the record, I don't think ANYBODY in here said "saying 'fuckboy' is fine but saying 'bitch' is not."

I personally said I don't feel comfortable calling men names if I don't like terms like "bitch" or "cunt" being used toward women (because of the double standard and because I prefer NO name-calling or derogatory terms). Others here said they liked "fuckboy" and don't mind (some even like) being called a "bitch." But I did not see ONE person here saying it was okay to call men names but not okay for men to call female names. Not one.

And I don't think the females on this board have ever thought of anything as a contest; what we seek, among each other, and from others I suppose, is support. Playing devil's advocate is not helpful. Telling us that the patriarchy doesn't exist in the U.S. when you (not you personally but you know who) do not live here as a female is useless argumentative rhetoric.

And I think at least some of this stems from some unnecessary guilt, like "these feminists are lodging complaints, they must be complaining about MEN and hey wait THAT MUST INCLUDE ME" which is ridiculous. Just because you are male does not mean you are automatically "the problem" nor does it mean we expect you to be "the solution."

But the least you can do (you meaning all "hurt" males out there) is quit telling us we are making a big deal out of nothing, that everything is fine, that nothing is wrong, etc. That is what they told us when they wouldn't let us vote, wouldn't let us own property, wouldn't let us have custody of our own children, etc. When we express ourselves, the ones turning it into an "argument" is YOU GUYS by basically telling us we are full of shit. And telling any oppressed 2nd class society that they are full of shit, and framing it as some kind of "intellectual debate" is never going to turn out well. To the people who already feel like they are oppressed, it just feels like more of the same thing, you know? You'll have to take our word on this one.

Put it this way: let's frame this same discussion around African Americans who say that the American history of slavery and the oppression of blacks, the ghettoization of blacks, the police mistreatment of blacks, the lesser schooling of blacks, the disproportionate poverty among American blacks, are on the top of their complaint list.

And those of us with American White Guilt come on here and say, "oh get over it, slavery was 200 yrs ago, and if you live in a ghetto and are poor, just get a good job and go to college and move, this just isn't true, white America treats you well, things are different now."

And they say, "hey, this is our thread about African American rights," we say "hey, what is this, an echo chamber? You don't want to hear other opinions?"

And in our position as whites is just further oppressing them by taking away their voice.

In the 60s and 70s, there was a huge protest movement, with civil unrest. And the people who pushed against that? We called them "Squares."

People have to stop taking every cause so personally and judging it with their ego, instead of compassion or empathy. When feminists talk about oppression, they aren't pointing at every single male on the planet. When blacks talk about oppression, they aren't pointing at every white person on the planet. Instead of questioning, "is that true?" or "are they blaming me?" or trying to play "devil's advocate," ask "how can I help?" or "how can we change things for the better?" And simply listen.

Khrz
09-20-2015, 05:02 AM
And I think at least some of this stems from some unnecessary guilt, like "these feminists are lodging complaints, they must be complaining about MEN and hey wait THAT MUST INCLUDE ME" which is ridiculous. Just because you are male does not mean you are automatically "the problem" nor does it mean we expect you to be "the solution."

I think perhaps Volband's issue is with broad statements about men in general, not about actual complaints. Which I can understand, I see posts here and there deriding White culture (which is really american whites' culture, but well), pointing out Men's behaviors, etc... When such a broad statement is made it's hard not to have a reaction akin to "well, I'm a man/white/cishet and I don't do that".

It's just a gut reaction, and as you said such statements shouldn't be taken personally.

The problem is also that in articles, opinion pieces and message posts, it's way simpler to talk about men in general rather than describe and pinpoint exactly what kind of men we're talking about every time. When talking about catcalling it's way easier to just talk about men's attitude rather than say "The Men Who Catcall You In The Streets And Are Rude About It" every time.

Guys just have to learn to actually read what it is about and reflect upon it rather than jump on their chair every time they see Men being mentioned in an article.

eversonpoe
09-20-2015, 08:59 AM
I think perhaps Volband's issue is with broad statements about men in general, not about actual complaints. Which I can understand, I see posts here and there deriding White culture (which is really american whites' culture, but well), pointing out Men's behaviors, etc... When such a broad statement is made it's hard not to have a reaction akin to "well, I'm a man/white/cishet and I don't do that".

It's just a gut reaction, and as you said such statements shouldn't be taken personally.

The problem is also that in articles, opinion pieces and message posts, it's way simpler to talk about men in general rather than describe and pinpoint exactly what kind of men we're talking about every time. When talking about catcalling it's way easier to just talk about men's attitude rather than say "The Men Who Catcall You In The Streets And Are Rude About It" every time.

Guys just have to learn to actually read what it is about and reflect upon it rather than jump on their chair every time they see Men being mentioned in an article.

it's similar (but not the same) to the reaction people have to "black lives matter" when they say "ALL lives matter!"
no one is saying "black lives matter MORE than other lives," they're saying "black lives matter JUST AS MUCH as other lives" because they're not being treated that way, but that's too long to fit on a hashtag.

tony.parente
09-20-2015, 09:37 AM
it's similar (but not the same) to the reaction people have to "black lives matter" when they say "ALL lives matter!"
no one is saying "black lives matter MORE than other lives," they're saying "black lives matter JUST AS MUCH as other lives" because they're not being treated that way, but that's too long to fit on a hashtag.
#BLMJAMAOL

Sorry

Volband
09-20-2015, 11:51 AM
That being said, I don't advocate name-calling as a positive mature feminist motive ("fuckboy"). I can't bristle at being called a "bitch" or a "cunt" by males, and then turn around and do the same stupid shit. It backfires. Watch out.


I think it is 100% reasonable to call someone who hits on you when you have told them you aren't interested and/or harasses you a fuckboy. They are being a fuckboy.

I think it was been defined here way beyond that, using a derogatory term that does not involve fucking any boys. And I am sure that many males can compose an essay defending their use of "cunt." Just sayin'. Maybe calling these guys "jerks" (as has been typical in history) "predators," "misogynists," etc., but beyond that is kinda high school. It sounds like something somebody made up while they were drunk.

I hear you, but nope, I love the word. Fuck (making shit all sexual) boy (immature). It's this perfect catchall word for the kind of behavior you see on straightwhiteboystexting.tumblr.com (which I keep bringing up because it's perfect) more so than any other word.

Calling a woman bitch/cunt (tbh I love the word cunt) is punching down. Calling a fuckboy a fuckboy? Not punching down.
I mean.........

Anyway, the black analogy is good, and I can even respond to that. We have our own minorities too, and surprise-surprise, most of them have big families and are unemployed. It is an issue, which probably will never ever be solved, but the point is, they are pretty hated here, so conflicts where they get the short end of the stick just because of their nationality are not rare. Why is it then that so many people actually - silently or not - happy when such incidents happen? Because the other side of the coin are never up for a debate, they are taboo topics. They refuse to fit in and they commit crimes in much higher % than us "whites". I'm pretty sure they do not defend those American cops, because they'd just love to live in a world where you have to be afraid from your own police, but because there is a built up hate in them, and it is how they channel it through. Fire with fire.

If someone is angry at the feminist movement, then it's not because they can't stomach the idea that a female worker who does the same exact job as they are, will get the same exact salary too. It's because suddenly you can't even dislike/disagree with/etc. a person who happens to be female, because you are surely doing it because you are sexist. You keep bringing up things (like women's right to vote) which I don't think anyone argues with. Yes, there was a time when... but you can't keep reaching back to it and making it your argument, that just because a hundred years ago some people were so stupid they couldn't comprehend why women should be allowed to vote, than probably anyone who has a problem with some of these forced politically correct views are just as stupid as those people were. It's not how it works, though technically you could be right.

And don't tell me it's not a race. Saying you don't like gay parades makes you homophobic. Talking about black crime and birth rate among the poor makes you racist. Even bringing up the argument about salary differences between the sexes, and talking about which field more female or male are employed makes you a sexist. Saying you don't want 100,000 immigrants in your country makes you literally Hitler. Saying we should do what we can to help the immigrants makes you a traitor. You don't, or just very very rarely see civilized, level-headed discussions among people. Hell, fuck level-headedness, a heated argument can be just as great, but instead, everyone is aiming for to invalidate the other person with any means necessary. Sometimes it feels like we (not ETS, but everyone) is on the TV, prime time, with millions watching, so saying "wow man, aren't you a sexist barbarain, huh?!" nets more applaud from the viewers, than actually talking about stuff.

But to be fair, feminism seems to me the least dangerous - if at all - among these. I don't see it ever becoming too much of a problem, like reaching the opposite end of the "women should not be allowed to vote" mentality.

Cat Mom
09-20-2015, 01:53 PM
Maybe your English is bad but you are not understanding my above quotes. I was DISAGREEING with their use of the term "fuckboy" as I thought it was stupid. If they wanted to call these particular sexist guys "jerks" for their behavior (which is a gender-free English term), whatever. Since that time, it was determined that "fuckboy" was actually an old African American Vernacular English (AAVE) term that was appropriated (stolen) by whites.

playwithfire said she loved the word cunt and she said that fuckboy was not a humiliating term (whereas bitch is).

NONE of those quotes said it was okay to call men names but not okay for them to call us names. None.

And it has not yet been 100 years since we were not allowed to vote. And, yes, we can still go back to that because it was oppression and it is part of our modern history and we have not totally broken free from that system and if we lose our history we are doomed to repeat it. It has not yet been 30 years since we could not get a small business loan. Women still mostly take their husband's surnames when they marry. But the most disturbing thing we females in the US face right now is domestic violence. The statistics are staggering. The backlash against our freedom has evidently been rape, assault, and death. Job security is one thing; being killed by our husbands is another.

I don't know what TV you are watching but I see the opposite of "sexist barbarian" comments and the like, here in this country. I see women ashamed of their bodies, I see a country obsessed by vain selfies, I see fashion mostly driven by an unrealistic photoshopped fashion and media industry, and I mostly see an apathetic vapid society obsessed with Kim Kardashian.

You need to stop reading such angry sites, or at least reading everything as angry. I don't think any of us, here, are angry. Frustrated sometimes, yeah. Tired, sometimes, yeah. Angry? Nah. That gets us nowhere.

We feminists / women's rights advocates are living, feeling human beings without a political agenda, and we are mostly trying to create a better, safer world for ourselves and our children. Some younger women are passionate about this, yes. But they should not apologize for that passion. That same passion of suffragettes earned us the right to vote.

But I just don't think any feminists see this an as us vs. them issue; we can't, because it's not a recipe for success. If the males are in power, the only way to obtain success is to gain the men as allies in our success in those institutions of power. And that's the way we have been working for the better part of 100 years. Go read articles or even watch the videos posted in this thread of feminist icon Gloria Steinem. She is rarely, if ever, angry. Her message is never anger, or "us vs. them." She is calm, intelligent, highly educated, informed, and a role model to millions of feminists world-wide. And she is 80 years young.

The Politically Correct movement was not born of oppression, it was born of compassion and empathy. Before the PC movement, nobody batted an eyelash in openly calling people derogatory names, openly bullying people, etc. The PC movement may not have done much to STOP any of the evil in this world, but it did make people perhaps more aware that their words do not occur in a vacuum.

This country is not as love/hate as you describe, above; not liking gay pride parades (e.g. the elderly or people who live in those neighborhoods who hate the traffic and drunkenness) does not prompt "everybody" to declare those as "homophobic." Plenty of articles in major U.S. newspapers cite the crime rates in black neighborhoods and we KNOW why it occurs and have scientific data, beyond hate, to prove why, and nobody points at those newspapers as "racist" but, instead, points at the entire SYSTEM as racist (see "ghettoization"). High birth rates happen among Catholics, too, so no correlation, there.

Bottom line, as has been explained ad infinitum: If you disagree that there is a wage disparity between men and women, saying that in a FEMINIST THREAD is not Politically Incorrect - IT'S TROLLING. Because females who actually EXPERIENCE the wage disparity KNOW it is true and why. And telling us we are full of shit in our own thread is trolling. Really, it is. It's not "PC" shit.

You are allowed to discuss this opposing opinion anywhere else but not with those with personal experience on the topic in their thread. That's been the rules of Usenet and BBSs and forums since the beginning. Like catcalling: We think it is humiliating, scary, and a form of assault in this thread. If you enjoy it, think it's innocuous, or wish to defend those who do it, that's not Politically Incorrect - it's trolling. We females say it is scary and humiliating and for you to say it is not is not Politically Incorrect - it's trolling. And for you to feel like we are somehow excluding you, or accusing you, or creating an echo chamber, is simply your defensive self talking. You're not being a compassionate human being, here. Think about it. Think with your heart, I mean; not with your gut defensive reaction, or that "macho" kind of social conditioning that might be first nature to you in your culture, albeit perhaps subconsciously. Know what I mean? Try to put yourself in our shoes, a female, having experienced it yourself, and having felt scared or humiliated. Take yourself out of your male shoes for a little while and be empathetic. If you want to contribute to this thread, anyway.

I know when I hear or read stories about how hard it is for black people in this country, being pulled over by cops all the time for absolutely no reason, my empathy automatically switches on; a guy my husband works with has been an air traffic controller for many years, a high-paid professional, and he says he gets pulled over by the cops all the time, for no reason. He's not a thug, he's actually a Federal employee with the highest level of Federal security clearance, higher than ANY cop who pulls him over, he has NORAD-level security clearance, he can work AIR FORCE ONE, for Christ sake, but if he goes to a gas station and buys a lottery ticket, bam, he gets pulled over and they run his license. Because of course they want to check if he just robbed the gas station. And even though I'm not black, I'm a white female, this breaks my heart, it just makes me disgusted that we live in a country where this happens, and I can't completely walk in this guy's shoes, I can't possibly totally know what this guy's life is life, but I wish there was SOME way I could DO something to stop these kinds of things from happening to black American citizens in this country. Which is drift in this thread but, you get the idea. It's about compassion, not about arguing every little point, like "well, what was he wearing? what kind of car was he driving?" blah blah blah.

playwithfire
09-20-2015, 06:42 PM
For the record, I haven't used the word fuckboy since learning it was AAVE through this board. I didn't know. I do now. Not my word.

But I do want a new word for it.

The key thing here is like... punching up vs. punching down. Insulting a harasser isn't the same.

I'm wary of drawing a line of connection here, but to maybe make some sense of things, a white person minding being called "cracker" would be FUCKING STUPID.

Ya'll objecting to a guy who throws mindless sexual attention at women minding earning an insulting name is fucking stupid.

Cat Mom
09-20-2015, 07:58 PM
But what ultimately scares me, that debates about feminism, homosexuals, transgenders, immigrants, ethnicities are not about humans, but ideas. Even if parts of the construct which makes up the whole idea are flawed, you have to think thrice whether to dare and question it or not, because you can be sure, that you will face the accusations of you being against the whole idea.
But, see, this is flawed; it IS, ultimately, about humans. And about how these humans are treated. And whether or not these humans have anything to do with you, at all. Ultimately, women's rights, gay rights, transgender rights and African American rights probably won't affect you at all, but can positively change the lives of millions of human beings. But there is enough hate out there, or religious opposition, etc. that seeks to stop human beings from living their lives, and uses excuses like the Bible or whatever. Ultimately, if it means that these groups continue to suffer discrimination, then any exchange of "ideas" is really just an excuse for human oppression and retention of the status quo. What kind of possible "idea" could one present that could intelligently be "against" homosexuality, transgender, women, or African Americans? When all of those (a) don't affect you at all, (b) don't choose to be that way, (c) deserve to be treated fairly. Of course, if you go to various Apostolic churches in this country, I promise they will greet those ideas with open loving arms (homosexuality is a sin, transgender people are going to Hell, women should obey their husbands, and black people should have remained slaves).

Exhibit A: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/19/us/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage-licenses-kentucky/index.html

Volband
09-21-2015, 09:56 AM
For the record, I haven't used the word fuckboy since learning it was AAVE through this board. I didn't know. I do now. Not my word.

But I do want a new word for it.

The key thing here is like... punching up vs. punching down. Insulting a harasser isn't the same.

I'm wary of drawing a line of connection here, but to maybe make some sense of things, a white person minding being called "cracker" would be FUCKING STUPID.

Ya'll objecting to a guy who throws mindless sexual attention at women minding earning an insulting name is fucking stupid.
As long as you have no problem if someone calls a woman who acts like a bitch*, bitch, then I see no problem.

*Just please don't make this into a "what exactly does being a bitch mean?" debate.

But, see, this is flawed; it IS, ultimately, about humans. And about how these humans are treated. And whether or not these humans have anything to do with you, at all. Ultimately, women's rights, gay rights, transgender rights and African American rights probably won't affect you at all, but can positively change the lives of millions of human beings. But there is enough hate out there, or religious opposition, etc. that seeks to stop human beings from living their lives, and uses excuses like the Bible or whatever. Ultimately, if it means that these groups continue to suffer discrimination, then any exchange of "ideas" is really just an excuse for human oppression and retention of the status quo. What kind of possible "idea" could one present that could intelligently be "against" homosexuality, transgender, women, or African Americans? When all of those (a) don't affect you at all, (b) don't choose to be that way, (c) deserve to be treated fairly. Of course, if you go to various Apostolic churches in this country, I promise they will greet those ideas with open loving arms (homosexuality is a sin, transgender people are going to Hell, women should obey their husbands, and black people should have remained slaves).

Exhibit A: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/19/us/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage-licenses-kentucky/index.html
Having a problem with someone being black or gay is obviously rather stupid. The dude was born black, and the dudette likes other dudettes, so what?! People following the biggest hoax in human history might not like them, but who caers, really. Transgenders are a lil' bit different, it really needs the scientific backup, but even after that, it's still rather confusing. But accepting it should be just as easy anyway.

What's more annoying is that you can be lynched for saying stuff like "I don't like watching two men kiss." Or to make it into a feminist example, I've read about women being criticized for actually wanting to do the housework, wanting to have a baby and stay home with it, etc. These are the things no one should be mocked for, or accused of being in the way of some glorious revolution.

But I interpreted your post as that you believe it is still worth it for the greater good. To which I'm not saying anything, because maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Haven't really thought of it that way.


I know when I hear or read stories about how hard it is for black people in this country, being pulled over by cops all the time for absolutely no reason, my empathy automatically switches on; a guy my husband works with has been an air traffic controller for many years, a high-paid professional, and he says he gets pulled over by the cops all the time, for no reason. He's not a thug, he's actually a Federal employee with the highest level of Federal security clearance, higher than ANY cop who pulls him over, he has NORAD-level security clearance, he can work AIR FORCE ONE, for Christ sake, but if he goes to a gas station and buys a lottery ticket, bam, he gets pulled over and they run his license. Because of course they want to check if he just robbed the gas station. And even though I'm not black, I'm a white female, this breaks my heart, it just makes me disgusted that we live in a country where this happens, and I can't completely walk in this guy's shoes, I can't possibly totally know what this guy's life is life, but I wish there was SOME way I could DO something to stop these kinds of things from happening to black American citizens in this country. Which is drift in this thread but, you get the idea. It's about compassion, not about arguing every little point, like "well, what was he wearing? what kind of car was he driving?" blah blah blah.
Do you know what I feel when I'm heading somewhere at night and I see minorities approach? I am getting ready, in case a conflict happens. DO you know what I did on the train when a minority sat down to by booth? I ended my nap, because my backpack and laptop were next to me. This example is a bit different, because not only the class of that guy was obvious (trust me, he had no security clearance anywhere, haha), he was the same guy who asked me for some money during another trip. Still, it sounds pretty bad, writing this down. Maybe he was actually a great guy, who knows, right? But I was growing up among them, I saw how they started to corrupt our schools, how they could bully around kids, but anytime someone dared to beat them up - rightfully so -, he was treated like shit. These guys (and girls) refused to learn, ganged up on the weak, stole, all this hwile enjoying complete immunity for their minority status.

I am absolutely sure there are minority people in my country too, who are hard-working, well-respected people, yet they are treated differently, even if by just people keeping on eye on them. You presented a romanticized story, which is exactly the one which needs the devil's advocate approach. Putting an angel in front and saying "Look at him/her?! How could you do this?!" is very compelling, but it doesn't even touch on the real problems. There is a reason sad things like that are happening, and maybe that reason is just as sad, and is still unresolved.

playwithfire
09-21-2015, 10:18 AM
I have racist reactions to people to this day. Most people have racist reactions. But that's not a thing that's okay or shouldn't be picked apart and grown past.


As long as you have no problem if someone calls a woman who acts like a bitch*, bitch, then I see no problem.

*Just please don't make this into a "what exactly does being a bitch mean?" debate.

But no, dude, that MATTERS. Context MATTERS. I would much rather you call her an asshole, a bully, human garbage, a piece of shit. Because bitch has been used SO MANY times when a woman was opinionated, or stood up for herself, or ignored a man. It is a word that has been used as a slur.

I think to many people the word bitch exists as a neutral word for a woman who is acting shittily, but it's really hard for me to separate the times a woman is deservedly called a bitch from all the countless times it's been a word used to put her into her place.

>>>>>THAT SAID<<<<<, if a woman is a massive jerk to you and you call her a bitch, YEAH, whatever, sure. Go for it.

Cat Mom
09-21-2015, 10:45 AM
What's more annoying is that you can be lynched for saying stuff like "I don't like watching two men kiss."
Where? Not in the United States, that's for sure. Gay people and gay rights advocates in the U.S. don't go around "lynching" people. The ones being attacked are 99% gay people. But in the U.S., a hate crime is a hate crime, no matter who is doing the "lynching." But this is drift in this thread so we should get off this topic.


Or to make it into a feminist example, I've read about women being criticized for actually wanting to do the housework, wanting to have a baby and stay home with it, etc. These are the things no one should be mocked for, or accused of being in the way of some glorious revolution.
There *was* a minority of women who didn't realize that "women's rights" means the right to do *whatever you want* which includes staying home, particularly if it makes financial sense but especially if it is fulfilling or it's what you want to do. Most of us, however, don't have a choice regarding the housework. We work all day, then we come home and do the housework, too. Most of us don't have maids. And even when we can afford maids, we don't have maids because they do a shitty job and then we have to clean what they just did a shitty job cleaning, LOL.


Do you know what I feel when I'm heading somewhere at night and I see minorities approach?
That's how we females feel in the same situation but around men (scared).

Anyway, you're in here mostly whining and so I think you should feel pretty much whined out by now. Whining doesn't get anybody anywhere, doesn't change anything.

Sallos
09-21-2015, 11:01 AM
That's how we females feel in the same situation but around men.


And that makes him a racist and you a misandrist?
Anyway, i was walking downtown the other night and happen to approach a group of "minorities", they were wearing tuxedos and looked like a jazz band, i didn't cross to the other side of the street, and something tells me you wouldn't either if you saw a group of well groomed men.

You just don't see that much well dressed minorities/men robbing people or raping women

Cat Mom
09-21-2015, 11:05 AM
And that makes him a racist and you a misandrist?
No, I was just being honest in saying that it's really how we often feel when we are alone on, say, a train and a stranger (male) comes on the train and sits down on the train. We feel anxiety because we don't know if that man is going to assault us, just like he said he doesn't know if that strange black man is going to steal his backpack. So it's a similar feeling. So perhaps he can relate. Or, better yet, we don't put all men in the "assaulter" category but it's a "gut" reaction he was talking about that he admits is not something he likes to feel but it's there, and we have that same self-defense "sizing up" survival reaction.

There actually are men who attack women who don't look like total thugs.

This guy always immediately comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

Sallos
09-21-2015, 11:11 AM
No, I was just being honest in saying that it's really how we often feel when we are alone on, say, a train and a stranger (male) comes on the train and sits down on the train. We feel anxiety because we don't know if that man is going to assault us, just like he said he doesn't know if that strange black man is going to steal his backpack. So it's a similar feeling. So perhaps he can relate. Or, better yet, we don't put all men in the "assaulter" category but it's a "gut" reaction he was talking about that he admits is not something he likes to feel but it's there, and we have that same self-defense "sizing up" survival reaction.

There actually are men who attack women who don't look like total thugs.

This guy always immediately comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy

Yes exactly, i mentioned him before in this thread. Being socially awkward doesn't make you a rapist, same with being a good looking charismatic fellow doesn't make you trustworthy.

Cat Mom
09-21-2015, 11:18 AM
And he was "well groomed," too.

Glad I never sat next to HIM on the train.

playwithfire
09-21-2015, 01:12 PM
I would absolutely keep my distance/be wary around a well dressed man or one who was less put together when walking alone at night.

halloween
09-22-2015, 05:33 PM
At night every time I pass a man, I make sure to take mental notes on his appearance...while at the same time fixing my posture and just generally telling myself "I own this street too, I won't be scared. It'll be fine anyway." It usually is fine but it's impossible to walk around without that gut instinct...This is me in Brazil speaking. When I lived in the States I never felt like having to take such precautions. I'm a little more scared here because there is still a strong macho culture but I have yet to get cat-called since being here- then again, I haven't gone out at night very much which is when, in the States, it would happen mostly to me.

I HATE that this is a gut reaction, I wish it wasn't. This being said, I actually see myself as quite friendly and if someone were to talk to me in any situation, I'm more likely to act trusting and see what they have to say than continue walking by because I'm nervous...I hope this doesn't get me in trouble one day!

littlemonkey613
09-22-2015, 09:18 PM
Undeniably Massive Study Confirms Campus Rape is an Undeniable, Massive Problem
(https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/new-study-validates-controversial-1-in-5-campus-sexual-assault-statistic)
fucking duh.
""There's a cultural obsession in this country to pick apart the 1-in-5 statistic. No number of studies, all confirming the 1-in-5, will ever be good enough for a particular segment of the American population, which insists that women lie, that justice is readily attainable, and that rape is an anomaly rather than an epidemic."

playwithfire
09-23-2015, 05:49 PM
Got a lot of things today, y'all.

- My coworkers and I have created a #ladies (which welcomes all genders) channel on my work's Slack and it's just us talking about periods and feminism and it is making me SO. HAPPY.


- This article is absolutely fantastic: http://apracticalwedding.com/2015/09/feminist-have-it-all/ It's Jen Dziura of Bullish (http://www.getbullish.com/) (which is also fantastic).



Getting together with a “nice guy” is not good enough. I’m deadly serious. “Nice” will get you through dating and coupling and nesting. But if you get pregnant, give birth, and breastfeed, you introduce a strong biological component into your relationship. (There are lots of other ways to make a family, and all of them are likely to, to some extent, activate ideas about gender roles that you’ve absorbed without meaning to, over your entire lifetime.) And then the weight of thousands of years of tradition and acculturation will hit you both, unless you are both actively committed to ending gender-based oppression.

Everything’s great. You get pregnant. You talk about both continuing to work, but one or both of you have unexamined biases against professional childcare, and one or both of you were raised in an environment in which children were the woman’s domain, and it just so happens that, probably partially due to cultural and structural forces, you make less money. You cobble together some kind of maternity leave out of whatever options are available to you. Paternity leave is almost never a thing, though. You have the baby. You are hit by a ton of bricks. He does what he can—maybe even heroically—but has to go back to work after a few days. You settle into a pattern where you do all the baby stuff, so the baby becomes more comfortable with you. At some point, you look into childcare but the cost really hits you—especially if you’ve already taken a financial hit from a rough pregnancy and/or unpaid mat leave—and maybe this nice guy of yours says, “I don’t know about leaving our baby with a stranger,” and you wonder about going back to work and how you’re going to manage, and every structural inequality and microaggression and well-meaning assumption just piles up until all the sudden it “just makes sense” for you to stop working “for now” and “this is what works for our family” and there you are, wondering what the hell happened.

And the hashtag #MasculinitySoFragile (https://twitter.com/hashtag/MasculinitySoFragile?src=hash) on Twitter.

orestes
09-23-2015, 07:58 PM
Sooooo good. (http://sketchshark.tumblr.com/post/129154657435/ive-been-doing-a-series-of-comics-about-men-being)

playwithfire
09-24-2015, 11:18 PM
HOLY SHIT THIS IS FUCKING AMAZING (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/09/21/planned_parenthood_release_four_videos_that_illust rate_what_consent_does.html)

Khrz
09-24-2015, 11:28 PM
It is actually depressing...

By that I mean, the need for instructional video on the subject.

I mean, we're in bed, I start kissing her, caressing her and then have a feeling that she's slightly less enthusiastic than usual ? I ask if there's anything wrong, or if she's tired, and we discuss that if there's something to discuss...
How hard can it fucking be to actually care ?
It's not cryptic, seriously !
And that's coming from someone who's hella awkward when it comes to social cues, and even I get the signal...

playwithfire
09-24-2015, 11:30 PM
I mean, is it depressing that they need to make videos, yes?

But I think it's awesome that someone finally made a clear explanation to shut down all of the idiocy I hear around it.

halloween
09-26-2015, 02:19 PM
I absolutely love this:
http://i.imgur.com/mgLJyeL.jpg

This is after hearing a story about my sister who went through a very upsetting situation with her husband where he expected her at some moment to treat him like his mother treats his father, which is with this outdated sexist servitude and care like the wife is also a mom. Ugh. Grow up. I really had a lot of respect for this guy, but it turns out he's not as progressive of a Brazilian as I thought he was. I really hope he has the power, as a fucking psychologist, to introspect on his expectations and evolve into a better person lest this marriage falls apart because my sister seems to be questioning the longevity of this thing. It's depressing me because she's pregnant with their second child so it's just going to be more complicated for the both of them in the coming years.

playwithfire
09-26-2015, 11:37 PM
I was discussing this with my coworkers the other day. I think it's something I will be able to avoid (the straight guys I date tend to be VERY feminist and on top of their shit as far as their sexual identity goes), but the fact that this comes up in straight relationships (and it is A Thing) is really lame and frustrating. Not to say that it doesn't come up in queer relationships, but not out reflexively falling to a structure built into our society for centuries.

I wish I could find it, but I found this really interesting/horrifying exchange of comments on -- Jezebel I think? About women who, after moving in with or marrying their male partners, watched them just kind of back off taking care of themselves/the house. Like there was this natural expectation for the female partner to do it. I don't even know how conscious they were of falling into that. Ugh.

Also this is good. http://the-toast.net/2015/07/13/emotional-labor/

Cat Mom
09-27-2015, 03:00 PM
I am married to a guy who I consider to be VERY feminist, but I admit it's happened in our relationship. For instance: his glass or dishes sat in the sink, somehow never made it the 1 foot to the left into the dishwasher, and I (the one with the uterus) ended up putting his glass or dishes into the dishwasher. FOR YEARS. Because of course we don't have a maid and the magic Dish Fairy wasn't going to move those dishes to the dishwasher. And we "discussed" this, many many many many times, and his rationale always was that he "did other things" around the house (and the discussion moved to how I was somehow not appreciating those "other things" he did around the house, so now he was gonna lay a buttload of guilt on ME, never mind that nobody was laying any appreciation on me for the buttloads of shit I do around the house). Yes, and he is supposed to do those other things around the house that we share, which is not a tradeoff for not putting his own dishes into the dishwasher. Which eventually led to a COMPLETE BLOWOUT wherein I had to explain to him that his actions represented hundred of years of men expecting women to just "do that" ... do the dishes, because it's "our job." It's more than just a mindless act, it's SYMBOLIC of an expectation that is ages old, it's not just something simple (especially when it didn't happen just once, twice, but A LOT, A LOT of times in our house) which went far beyond the "whoops, I forgot" and, to females, crosses into the sending a message category: "let her do it, it's her job, it's in her sphere."

And he said that it really made him think about it, that he hadn't thought that it had carried such weight, such a history, and carried a message.

And he never leaves the dishes sitting in the sink, anymore.

halloween
09-27-2015, 04:10 PM
Ahhh! It's so frustrating. My sister had a blow out conversation with her husband about such trivial things (which in this case also included the subject of dishes) and when she said she felt like a 50's housewife, he was all defensive saying "Oh! Now you're saying you feel oppressed? I'm the oppressor?" Oh my god, how fucking naive does he have to be to not see the difference between actively oppressing someone and unknowingly perpetuating generations of cultural expectations of gender roles that is clearly not very removed from our daily lives- It's extremely obvious in a situation like his family so of COURSE he's influenced by it even if he doesn't want to oppress her. Ugh, there is sooo much more I could go into about examples but I don't want to talk about my sister's marriage anymore beyond this.

It's like you said, he has no idea the message that these actions really have. I hope dearly that my sister and her husband manage to have an ongoing conversation about this in a way that is healthy and productive. Unfortunately my sister isn't well-read on feminist issues and I'm not sure she can articulate these finer points. I say this because when I've had conversations with her about my frustrations of macho culture, she doesn't always seem to understand me. For example, when I was rolling my eyes at how a tv channel here uses carnaval's untraditional painted lady dancing as advertising to use their tv channel to watch the events of carnaval (here's this year's example video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcDbCHynVhY

Her reaction was "Why are you so angry about it?" and "Well, women are beautiful." I didn't have the patience and she didn't have the receptivity to hear me out on my thoughts of, this is advertising, this just reinforces the idea that women can and should be stared at because they're beautiful and how dare they not want that kind of attention!! They're beautiful!! This may appear harmless on the surface but can easily lead one down the rabbit hole of men's expectations and how dangerous it can be for women when they don't comply. Regarding the video, I just don't like how aggressive it is and how it is less about Carnaval but more about the Beautiful Woman- so much that the channels name, Globo- puts in Beautiful into their name for the title of the woman they choose every year for this short advertisement- GloBeleza. P.S. The whole process of finding the lady to dance is also a show in itself, a beauty pageant voted on by the public at large using their phones.

playwithfire
09-27-2015, 07:14 PM
That woman is incredibly attractive, but yeaaaah, everything you said.

Thanks for sharing allegro. Like, it really is A Thing. I don't think these awesome otherwise liberal guys intend to do it, it's like, defaulting on years of cultural programming.

That said, I would literally just never touch any of their things and would still get so, so, so upset with a male partner who did that.

Cat Mom
09-27-2015, 08:08 PM
Yes, but on the other hand, then we have to live in mess? With dirty dishes? With a cluttered house? I have a best friend with THAT husband; she has been asking him, for over 20 years, to please stop using every fucking available flat space to pile up more of his "stuff" and to stop leaving multiple pairs of his shoes at the bottom of the stairs every day, etc. etc. but nothing changes and he continues to use the entire house as "his" space and if she wants it cleaner, then she can clean it. And it makes her NUTS. They moved to a new bigger house about 3 yrs ago, and she told him that this BETTER NOT mean him taking over more of the house; and he sort of agreed, but he has done the opposite. And she has talked with me about it and it's sad but I've told her that she has to maybe tell him that she is leaving. Because he is not RESPECTING her, and her living in a chaotic pigpen with arguing is no way to live.

And G really likes my girlfriend and HE is really pissed at her husband about this, like it's a total macho control freak bullshit thing to do to a nice person who generally has a hard time sticking up for herself. I think her husband continues to do it not because he is a total dick but because he can get away with it. If she left (or started throwing his shit into the garage), I think he'd finally get the message. He is generally a pretty ego-centric dude, though.

But, to ME and G, he says he is CHANGING, he is gonna CLEAN ALL THAT (this shit has come up in front of us), but my friend secretly gives me "the look" because nothing ever changes and he's just saying that to us for show. Because he is the KING of the Castle.

In other ways, though, he is TOTALLY supportive of her. So it's just "in the house" shit. In this case, her "sphere" isn't even the kitchen because he is taking that over, too.

I'd have been DONE years ago.

eversonpoe
09-28-2015, 08:00 AM
i think i've mentioned this before, but it's relevant to the topic at hand so sorry if i'm repeating myself.

my wife commutes an hour and a half to and from a 9-5 every week day that makes her miserable (whereas my hours are much more flexible), so i do as much around the house as i can to make her life easier. i do the dishes, i do the laundry, i vacuum/clean in general. she empties the litterboxes most of the time because i have a really hard time breathing when i do it, and she's much better at cleaning the bathroom, so she always volunteers to do that. we also tend to cook all our meals together because we always have fun in the kitchen. we really act as a true TEAM to keep our place looking nice so that we can be comfortable. we both appreciate each others contributions and keep a nice balance.

Cat Mom
09-28-2015, 09:16 AM
well, but, see, that's the way it SHOULD be, though: a TEAM effort. You BOTH live there, it's BOTH of your responsibility to do your own part to clean, cook, whatever. If she works more, then you pitch in around the house more, it all balances out, right? Since me and G "talked" we balance out pretty much everything in our house, including cooking (which he really enjoys). And I talk with my younger half-brother and it's funny but it's exactly the same way in his house; neither he nor G resemble any of the "male role models" in our family, who barely lifted a finger in the house.

I tell ya, we have a ranch house that's 1400 square feet (3 bedrooms, 2 full baths) and the basement is fully finished with an additional 1400 square feet (and another half bath) and G and I can barely keep up with the constant cleaning, and I don't know HOW THE FUCK these people with these 3500 square foot houses keep them clean, especially with kids. I want one of those fucking TINY HOUSES. This house was built in 1956 and was kept clean by a stay-at-home Mom who (with her husband) raised 3 kids in it; it probably took her all day to clean it, like a JOB, wtf.

Dra508
09-29-2015, 08:35 AM
well, but, see, that's the way it SHOULD be, though: a TEAM effort. You BOTH live there, it's BOTH of your responsibility to do your own part to clean, cook, whatever. If she works more, then you pitch in around the house more, it all balances out, right? Since me and G "talked" we balance out pretty much everything in our house, including cooking (which he really enjoys). And I talk with my younger half-brother and it's funny but it's exactly the same way in his house; neither he nor G resemble any of the "male role models" in our family, who barely lifted a finger in the house.

I tell ya, we have a ranch house that's 1400 square feet (3 bedrooms, 2 full baths) and the basement is refinished with an additional 1400 square feet (and another half bath) and G and I can barely keep up with the constant cleaning, and I don't know HOW THE FUCK these people with these 3500 square foot houses keep them clean, especially with kids. I want one of those fucking TINY HOUSES. This house was built in 1956 and was kept by a stay-at-home Mom who (with her husband) raised 3 kids in it; it probably took her all day to clean it, like a JOB, wtf.

Err, umm. Housecleaner:o

After reading the last couple of posts about household division of labor, I think I have been carrying those old gender roles inside me and I need to break myself. Case in point: when I was married, we did divide some roles along the old school gender lines - he mowed the lawn, I did the laundry. It divided the work, but still in those "traditional" ways. He loved to cook so that got divided two ways - I cooked to eat, he cooked to impress - fancier fare, when friends came over, holidays. I was ok with that. Fast forward to my current domestic partner who every time I turn around is doing my laundry, to the point where I was like "hey, I can do this too you know", Keeps the kitchen spotless, though admits to hating emptying the dishwasher, so I totally said "I'LL DO THAT". As for cooking, I think it might be 50-50, but have found myself making the statement "I don't want to cook tonight" which I must subconsciously feel like that I'm the primary and have to make clear, it's not my night. I was really surprised when it was pointed out to me and only in that he doesn't have those gender roles stuck in his head and looked at it more like I was putting demarcations on what I would do and he would do. Wow. All good but interesting that it was pointed out to me

Cat Mom
09-29-2015, 11:09 AM
Err, umm. Housecleaner:o
No fucking way. My grandmother had a housekeeper most of my mom's life, I have friends who have housekeepers, and they either (a) do a shitty job and you clean right after they leave or (b) they rob you blind (like, literally steal your stuff).

Yes, you need to get rid of those gender-based divisions of labor and let him do whatever things he wants and get the possible thought that "you can do it better" out of your head. The older generation of guys used to RELY on that, too (do a shitty job, then her "I can do a better job" instinct kicked in and, voila, he's off the hook!) and it was all our fault for falling into that trap or being control freaks. G and I used to do that shit, until I gently and nicely showed him how to do it right (explained that I wasn't BORN knowing how to dust or clean the right way [dust first, then vacuum -- when I moved into my first apartment when I was around 19, I bought a BOOK on how to efficiently and quickly clean! Because my Mom sucked at it!]) and now he really does take pride in doing a good job, not a half-assed job. And we have to stop being total perfectionists and accept that it's not exactly how WE would do it but it's done. I'm lucky, G's pretty OCD like me; if I was living with a total slob who thought a table that you can write your name on was acceptable, we might be having a different conversation.

We have two separate bathrooms, which I swear -- if you can afford it -- is a relationship saver. I don't know how guy's toilets end up looking SO different than women's toilets. But, they do.

So we have this thing in all of the bathrooms in the house. OMG TOTALLY AWESOME.

http://cdn2-www.momtastic.com/assets/uploads/2014/01/Clorox-Toilet-Wand-Toilet-Cleaning-System-Review-1.jpg

There's one thing that I physically COULD NOT do and that was start up the lawn mower when we had a lawn mower that was not electronic start. (I can't pull that damned pull-start for the life of me, I think my arm is too short.) But we've had landscapers for years, so I don't worry about that. And our snow blower is a MONSTER and awesome and it's electronic start (I just plug it in and push a button to fire it up) and we have a huge circular driveway and I can snow-blow that with no problem. Although, as of last year, we hired our landscaper to plow our driveway so now we only have to snow-blow the walk on the side of our house, which is a lifesaver for these GIANT snows that we've had in the last few years. Last year, I thought one of them was gonna make G have a grabber and he's in pretty good shape.

halloween
09-30-2015, 06:31 PM
Wow, that level of disrespect is astounding to me. I would have moved out and given him aaaaalll the space he wants and if that didn't change his perspective...then it would make it easier to break up because I'd already have moved out, haha. It seems like he is really great in other ways for her to put up with it for so long.

In other news, I was happy to find that there is a metro car designated for women and handicap here in my city. It sucks to know that sexual harassment was such a problem that women had to petition for this measure of safety. I've learned that several other countries do that too.

Lew
10-03-2015, 01:49 PM
for playwithfire:
still trying to find the perfect sub for "fuck boy" (oh, and thanks to khrz for cultural bleed through vs cultural appropriation...you kinda clarified how i have been thinking about this. ta.)
cock puppet
stick boy
slick stick
hole hopper
fitz foldz
fits all

damn it is hard to find a combo that truly encapsulates the idea the way fuck boy does.

and no, i still haven't stopped ticking about this non stop. lol.

Lew
10-03-2015, 01:52 PM
jr. ranger?

shit balls. can't we just change the spelling to "fuk boy" or "phuk boi" and have done?

Lew
10-03-2015, 01:55 PM
also, isn't cultural appropriation...cultural bleedthrough...really just a form of evolution?
outside of sacred spiritual objects, i don't get how hair/clothes/dance/speech are appropriated...melting pot, etc etc?

halloween
10-03-2015, 09:19 PM
The most important thing I take away from the cultural appropriate bit is that as long as you don't claim something as your own, if you learn about something that comes from another culture, give credit where it's due, I think it's fine. I read an African's person comment online saying it's fine if American's (black americans) want to use their patterns and forms of fashion, but learn about where it came from and the appropriate names. They don't go around telling "us to stop wearing jeans and a t-shirt" so it's fine.

richardp
10-04-2015, 12:15 PM
If anyone is bored, bunch of ignorant dudes have been repeatedly calling a female wrestler a cum dumpster and defending their actions as "not misogynistic" in the Pro Wrestling thread. Blowing my mind, right now.

ldopa
10-04-2015, 01:03 PM
i'm a woman and i didn't feel offended in the least bit. dudes and women alike can call people what they want to. they're just words. besides, she's a "wrestler" who could probably kick your ass. i doubt she needs you defending her honor. if we were talking about a male (alot of male wrestlers are notorious whores. in every sense of the word) it would just be regular shit talking. but since it's a female, it's a fucking national crisis?

edit: a REAL woman can handle being called some names without some dude stepping in.

orestes
10-04-2015, 01:42 PM
Ugh, I hate the phrase "real women".

botley
10-04-2015, 02:31 PM
An oldie but a goodie (http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341)

Khrz
10-06-2015, 09:59 AM
Ugh, I hate the phrase "real women".

Real [insert demographic] are [insert behavior] !

Oh would you look at that, this precisely overlaps my own attitude and values, what are the odds ?!


Edit : So much love for Kate Beaton...

botley
10-06-2015, 06:39 PM
So much love for Kate Beaton...
From me, but also from my female and feline companions
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQq83PnUsAAm8fR.jpg

Sarah K
10-07-2015, 11:39 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/magazine/the-passion-of-nicki-minaj.html

This is really, really good. Tell 'em!

orestes
10-11-2015, 03:11 PM
Today in fragile masculinity. http://m.chron.com/local/education/campus-chronicles/article/campus-carry-ut-austin-dildo-Q-A-texas-6564913.php

DigitalChaos
10-17-2015, 12:27 AM
from Nancy Fraser:
"Mainstream feminism has adopted a thin, market-centered view of equality, which dovetails neatly with the prevailing neoliberal corporate view. So it tends to fall into line with an especially predatory, winner-take-all form of capitalism that is fattening investors by cannibalizing the living standards of everyone else. Worse still, this feminism is supplying an alibi for these predations. Increasingly, it is liberal feminist thinking that supplies the charisma, the aura of emancipation, on which neoliberalism draws to legitimate its vast upward redistribution of wealth."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2015/10/15/a-feminism-where-leaning-in-means-leaning-on-others/

Thoughts? There are a lot more topics in there beyond this quote. Interesting read.

Cat Mom
10-17-2015, 09:22 AM
from Nancy Fraser:
"Mainstream feminism has adopted a thin, market-centered view of equality, which dovetails neatly with the prevailing neoliberal corporate view. So it tends to fall into line with an especially predatory, winner-take-all form of capitalism that is fattening investors by cannibalizing the living standards of everyone else. Worse still, this feminism is supplying an alibi for these predations. Increasingly, it is liberal feminist thinking that supplies the charisma, the aura of emancipation, on which neoliberalism draws to legitimate its vast upward redistribution of wealth."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2015/10/15/a-feminism-where-leaning-in-means-leaning-on-others/

Thoughts? There are a lot more topics in there beyond this quote. Interesting read.

Wow, that's a great interview, thanks for posting.

theimage13
10-18-2015, 03:04 PM
Ugh, I hate the phrase "real women".

"real women have curves"

My girlfriend is hardly a hundred pounds soaking wet and has a pretty straight frame (don't worry - no eating disorder or anything like that; she's just naturally a very petite woman). So yeah, when someone says some stupid shit like that, we both get kind of peeved.

Nyx
10-18-2015, 04:11 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-divides-opinion-after-opposing-union-s-sex-consent-lessons-a6694781.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-divides-opinion-after-opposing-union-s-sex-consent-lessons-a6694781.html)
"A student at the University of Warwick has divided opinion online after speaking out against being invited to sex consent training lessons – a move, he says, was ‘the biggest insult I’ve received in a good few years’."

"I don’t have to be taught to not be a rapist. That much comes naturally to me, as I am sure it does to the overwhelming majority of people you and I know."

http://i.imgur.com/L0tePFh.jpg?1

Just looking at him makes my blood pressure spike.

tony.parente
10-18-2015, 04:21 PM
http://youtu.be/j4m3AJamQYM
Relevant.

eversonpoe
10-19-2015, 07:48 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-divides-opinion-after-opposing-union-s-sex-consent-lessons-a6694781.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-divides-opinion-after-opposing-union-s-sex-consent-lessons-a6694781.html)
"A student at the University of Warwick has divided opinion online after speaking out against being invited to sex consent training lessons – a move, he says, was ‘the biggest insult I’ve received in a good few years’."

"I don’t have to be taught to not be a rapist. That much comes naturally to me, as I am sure it does to the overwhelming majority of people you and I know."

Just looking at him makes my blood pressure spike.

masculinity so fragile :rolleyes:

Khrz
10-19-2015, 08:13 AM
masculinity so fragile :rolleyes:

Well I can understand the misunderstanding. The rules are shifting, the context is changing, there's a slight tipping of the balance occurring, somehow I can understand that it could escape him (or anyone) so much that he would think he merely has to operate under the previous parameters. It's not like the moral framework has really changed.

That photo though... That makes him eminently punchable.

tony.parente
10-22-2015, 06:15 AM
http://i.imgur.com/nt5VDRC.jpg
What is the ETS feminist community think of this? Is this rightfully fucked?

playwithfire
10-22-2015, 09:44 AM
It's a pretty terrible ad that fails on a lot of different levels. It's so bad that it's being used by meninists all over the internet to attack important concepts and legislation, so like... extra fail. It didn't just fail to make an effective point, it became detrimental to the cause.

playwithfire
10-22-2015, 09:47 AM
Here is how you do ads like this. (http://www.theviolencestopshere.ca/dbtg.php)

http://www.theviolencestopshere.ca/images/JusBecausePoster_2.jpg

Khrz
10-22-2015, 09:57 AM
It's a pretty terrible ad that fails on a lot of different levels. It's so bad that it's being used by meninists all over the internet to attack important concepts and legislation, so like... extra fail. It didn't just fail to make an effective point, it became detrimental to the cause.

Yeah it's a fucking mess. Any kind of message would become questionable if the delivery was failed that much.
As you said, it's FUBAR on every level possible. The text is ambiguous at best. The design's illegible. The photo doesn't deliver anything meaningful. From a distance you could confuse it for a straight-to-video romcom poster. Every design cue is wrong.

It's one of those communication jobs who's been handed to someone's nephew free of charge, and put together an hour before the deadline.

orestes
10-22-2015, 06:02 PM
Also, what utopian world are we living in in which an accused rapist is charged​ the next day? There are thousands of rape kits backlogged in crime labs so like hell this would ever happen in real life.

Cat Mom
10-22-2015, 06:27 PM
Also, their assertion that a woman who is "intoxicated cannot give her legal consent for sex" is incorrect. The correct term is incapacitated, not intoxicated.

Two contenting adults who have been drinking can absolutely have sex without legal consequence; a legal problem only arises when the recipient (male or female) of penetration is SO drunk, they're incapacitated (e.g. unconscious or so drunk they are mentally incapacitated and therefore unable to give consent to said penetration).

There is a legal scale of intoxication, e.g. most states have a .08 limit for driving while intoxicated (which for most people equals one beer or one glass of wine) and this scale goes all the way up to alcohol poisoning.

"Drunk" (mentally incapacitated) people also can't sign contracts in most states, can't get a marriage license in most states, can't sign a Will, etc., because of their inability to "consent" because of diminished mental capacity ("unsound mind").

Cat Mom
10-22-2015, 07:47 PM
http://i.imgur.com/L0tePFh.jpg?1

Just looking at him makes my blood pressure spike.
Somebody needs to show him a photo of Ted Bundy.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/5/50734/2164405-bundy.jpg

theimage13
10-23-2015, 06:41 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-divides-opinion-after-opposing-union-s-sex-consent-lessons-a6694781.html
(http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/warwick-university-student-george-lawlor-divides-opinion-after-opposing-union-s-sex-consent-lessons-a6694781.html)
"A student at the University of Warwick has divided opinion online after speaking out against being invited to sex consent training lessons – a move, he says, was ‘the biggest insult I’ve received in a good few years’."

"I don’t have to be taught to not be a rapist. That much comes naturally to me, as I am sure it does to the overwhelming majority of people you and I know."

http://i.imgur.com/L0tePFh.jpg?1

Just looking at him makes my blood pressure spike.

What a fucking dickbag. That is EXACTLY what a rapist looks like. So are people with flannel shirts and skinny jeans. So are people in tank tops and board shorts. So are people with their pants hanging around their damn knees. So are people in tuxedos and ball gowns. Appearance doesn't have one fucking thing to do with whether someone is a rapist. I'd like to see* a well dressed man get this guy drunk, fuck him in the ass, then tell him "what? I don't look like a rapist." Maybe then he'd get the point.

Now, if I were a college student today and I was told that some sort of consent class was required of me, the ONLY thing that would make me bitch about it would be if it were only men who were required to attend. Yes, statistically men are far more likely to rape women than vice-versa, but if you're going to make it a mandatory class, make it mandatory for everyone. Beyond that, I'd just roll my eyes, be thankful that my parents raised me well enough to make this sort of class a moot point and waste of my time, and smile and nod my way through it.

*I wouldn't actually like to see this.

kel
10-25-2015, 01:24 AM
men feeling entitled to an opinion on abortion. you don't have wombs, assholes.

fucking facebook.

halloween
10-25-2015, 08:18 AM
Oh man, the other day I took a taxi with my grandmother and the taxi driver decided it would be great to just chit-chat away casually about life and somehow the topic of men and women came up, he just started saying "It's a shame that men don't want to work and are staying at home and taking care of the house, leaving the women to work and how that's not right, don't you think?" Hahaha, my reaction of course was, "If that's what they want to do, that's fine by me. I don't want to sit around the house all day. There are women who want to be out working. I think what's important is if that's how the a couple agrees to be, there's nothing wrong with it. If both men and women could work and take care of the house together, even better!" He was professional enough to shut the fuck up, politely stating "Ah...no insults intended...I believe I'm speaking too much!" (as in, just running his mouth too much). I'm glad he spoke about it though, made for an educational moment on his part.

theimage13
10-25-2015, 12:24 PM
men feeling entitled to an opinion on abortion. you don't have wombs, assholes.

fucking facebook.

Excuse me? We all have a mother (strictly biologically speaking), and many of us have sisters or daughters. We're not allowed to have an opinion on an issue that primarily affects women just because we don't have wombs? Sorry, but fuck that. I can see getting angry when dudes are trying to restrict your choices about your bodies, because that's pretty shitty. But don't you dare tell me that I'm not allowed to be opinionated about issues like the defunding of Planned Parenthood or restricting abortions.

Sincerely - a pro-choice male.

kel
10-25-2015, 12:34 PM
We're not allowed to have an opinion on an issue that primarily affects women just because we don't have wombs?

yep.

ten chars.

Cat Mom
10-25-2015, 12:52 PM
If the Government's ACA really worked, and everybody had insurance, which includes free services and birth control for women, and then we expand those services even more, then Federal funding of private organizations like PP isn't even necessary and PP isn't even necessary. Just sayin'. In civilized countries where birth control and std prevention and education is provided by the government, abortions (and unplanned pregnancies) are greatly decreased. This is all part of basic healthcare for women.

Remember, Republicans used to looove PP:
http://www.salon.com/2015/08/18/the_secret_republican_love_affair_with_planned_par enthood_a_history/

playwithfire
10-25-2015, 12:55 PM
I'd like to see* a well dressed man get this guy drunk, fuck him in the ass, then tell him "what? I don't look like a rapist." Maybe then he'd get the point.

Nooooo. Two wrongs don't make a right.

theimage13
10-26-2015, 04:19 PM
Nooooo. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Maybe if you hadn't ignored the asterisk that clearly stated that I didn't actually want to see that happen....

theimage13
10-26-2015, 04:22 PM
yep.

ten chars.

So let me get this right. I'm only allowed to see a male doctor, because a woman isn't entitled to give me her medical opinion on a condition regarding my genitalia because she herself doesn't have a penis? And to the contrary, no man is allowed to become a gynecologist because they're not allowed to have an educated medical opinion about vaginas?

Okay, got it.

Sarah K
10-26-2015, 04:33 PM
You're a doctor?

kel
10-26-2015, 06:21 PM
what i mean is, have an opinion. have lots of them regarding the reproductive rights of women. but know that they mean dick. being an ally is great, but it doesn't validate anything. even if you impregnate a woman ... actually especially if you impregnate a woman, whether it be a girlfriend or even a wife, you have zero say in what she chooses to do.

my post was in response to some pro-life idiots with penises. it baffles me that that they feel like they deserve a say. ever. they don't.

theimage13
10-26-2015, 06:46 PM
You're a doctor?

yes (ten chars)

Just kidding. Never said I was a doctor. Not sure how that's relevant.

My point is that on the internet (and to a lesser extent, in the real world) people like to spout off uneducated opinions about things - like saying vaccines cause autism, or that the vapor trails behind planes are actually chemicals released by the government to turn us all into sheep. But just because someone isn't biologically included in a group of people that an issue primarily affects, that doesn't mean they can't be educated about it and entitled to their opinion about it. I may not be a doctor, but I do know that complications from pregnancies can lead to women dying during childbirth. I may not be a psychiatrist, but I know that giving birth to a child created by rape would quite possibly be traumatic beyond words. I may not have a womb, but I know fundamental things about anatomy, health, and psychology that allow me to have a rational and educated opinion about issues that do not affect my own body.

And of course, not having a womb doesn't mean abortion is an issue that doesn't affect me. What if someone raped my wife? Are you telling me that I'm not entitled to simply express my belief (nothing legally binding, since it's just a personal opinion) that it's her choice whether to have an abortion or not simply because I don't have a womb? I'm not entitled to say "sorry honey, the state says it's illegal for you to have an abortion, so I support them. I'm not allowed to have an opinion about this." For real? Is this genuinely what you're trying to tell me?

Sorry, but that's a load of shit.

Ultimately, everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it remains just that - an opinion. Where I actually see a problem is when a select bunch of rich men are able to legally restrict a woman's ability to control her body based on their belief in an ancient god that may or may not even exist, and not on a belief in science, medicine, and common decency. THAT is an issue. Someone with a penis is entitled to disagree with that.

kel
10-26-2015, 07:17 PM
fine. an *opinion*. go nuts. but ever, EVER having a say? no. that was my point, even though i obviously didn't make that clear.

orestes
10-26-2015, 09:05 PM
c0f3d I understood your intent from the beginning so there's no need to apologize.

Cat Mom
10-26-2015, 11:00 PM
Yes, c0f3d, we understood exactly what you meant, no need to apologize.

theimage13
10-27-2015, 06:37 AM
Maybe I'm just thick, but I didn't see "men aren't entitled to have an opinion" meaning the same thing as "men can't make legal regulations about my body". 99.9% of us can't make our opinions a law. But I get it, we simply misunderstood each other.

playwithfire
10-27-2015, 10:57 AM
Maybe if you hadn't ignored the asterisk that clearly stated that I didn't actually want to see that happen....

I did one better, I misread it as "I would actually like to see this."

Volband
10-27-2015, 05:22 PM
I don't get anyone who is not pro-abortion - men or women - to begin with. An unwanted child will ruin everyone's life, period. So saying his/her life matters, and then forcing him into some fucked up family situation is a bit hypocritical.

halloween
10-27-2015, 05:39 PM
I don't get anyone who is not pro-abortion - men or women - to begin with. An unwanted child will ruin everyone's life, period. So saying his/her life matters, and then forcing him into some fucked up family situation is a bit hypocritical.
BUT IT'S GOD'S PLAN! SUFFERING FOR ALL! DON'T QUESTION IT!

I wish I could post in all caps. Edit- oh it did appear in all caps, cool.

eversonpoe
10-28-2015, 09:15 AM
I don't get anyone who is not pro-abortion - men or women - to begin with. An unwanted child will ruin everyone's life, period. So saying his/her life matters, and then forcing him into some fucked up family situation is a bit hypocritical.

it's not "pro-abortion" because that makes it sounds like you only want abortions. it's "pro-choice" because it's up to the woman who is pregnant to choose what she wants to do.