The Childfree and/or Unmarried Thread

[Halo Infinity]

I'm sure there's a plethora of valid reasons to not have children and/or get married. If you don't mind sharing, what are your reasons for being one, the other, or both for that matter? If anything, I completely commend those that avoid getting married and/or having children for all the wrong reasons. They're both extremely moral/ethical decisions.

[theruiner]

I don't believe in marriage. Which is to say, I don't mind what other people do, and I'm not judging anyone who chooses to get married at all, but to me it's an arbitrary thing. You can be just as in love, just as dedicated and have a relationship on the same level without going through a special ceremony or getting a piece of paper.

Like I said, though, it all depends on the people involved. For some people, it really does make some sort of a difference for them, and that's great. For others (myself included), they don't feel a need to do that to feel like their relationship is complete. I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but the way a lot of people talk about marriage really irks me, as if there is some actual innate difference that makes marriage better than just being in a relationship, and if you're not married then you're not on the same level as people who are, or your relationship is somehow not as valid, which is just blatantly untrue.

As far as kids go, I decided many years ago that I didn't want any, and I still feel the same. Kids are great, but I don't want any of my own. There are tons of actual reasons, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the way my brain is "wired" (for lack of a better term). I just don't have that natural urge or instinct to have children. Like I said, there are other factors as well. I love kids, and I'm sorry, I'm sympathetic to parents who are dealing with this, I really am, but every time I'm in a store and I hear some kid screaming his/her head off, I thank my lucky stars I don't have any of my own. It's just not something I want to deal with. Just as an example.

But, like I said, at the end of the day, if I really wanted children, if I had that drive, then I don't think the negative aspects of raising a child would prevent me from doing so. It's really the inherent lack of an interest in having children that stops me, not any other reason.

[halloween]

I've been having one too many debates with people about my decision on childbearing in the future. Yes I'm young, that's why i don't want you bringing it up because i'm in the frame of mind that i DON'T WANT CHILDREN! There's no use telling me "that might change." I KNOW, BUT UNTIL THAT CHANGES, STFU AND LEAVE ME ALONE.

Basically, i'm not going to plan my life around having kids, but if i grow older "and change my mind", well i'll deal it with then! I mean i could see it happen since i do enjoy kids on some level and i have been growing a stronger understand of what "family" is to me...who knows. but again until then STOP FUCKING ASKING ME ABOUT IT.

[icklekitty]

I went through this a lot on the old forum - let's see if I can articulate it as well here.

I don't believe in marriage because the concept has lost all meaning (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lm2JI7sGwYI/TQmdLnKeDwI/AAAAAAAALvw/jNppXumCr58/s1600/sanctity+of+marriage.jpg). It doesn't celebrate love, it isn't the next level in a relationship. Otherwise gay people would be able to get married and straight people who've had 5 divorces or need a green card/health insurance (see: allegro in the other thread, and I'm sure she won't get mad at this) wouldn't. Marriage is a business contract. It's cold, and it's hard, and it's not something I want to experience. I'd love a wedding, but I can throw a giant narcissistic party whenever I want.

I don't believe in procreation at this point in the human evolutionary cycle. This is a shitty world, I don't think new lives should be brought into it until we have a handle on the existing ones. The world is overpopulated and we're killing the planet - human creation is the primary culprit of this. Millions of children all over the world are crying out for parents - you can't make a mummy through IVF. I think it's wholly dispassionate to create new life instead of looking after these innocent people in need of love. It is therefore not necessary to procreate - to do so is selfish and narcissistic.

I'd love to fall in love for life and I'd love to raise a little girl/boy, but I don't think the above concepts have any relevance to these goals.

[Elke]

I'm singularly unpleasant to live with, very set in my routines and incredibly demanding. So I'm not holding my breath waiting for someone to 'complete me'. I'm pretty happy by myself.

And I hate kids. With a fiery burning passion. They only get sort of fun from around 6 and upwards, and only for a limited amount of time. And really: if I can't care for a fish or a potted plant without freaking out about it 24/7 and it dying on me regardless, how am I gonna be with a kid, huh? Bad idea.

So yeah, I'm one of those selfish 'I don't want to change my life for another person' people. That said: I deal with kids five days a week, seven hours a day, and I love them dearly. So I do contribute to the continued welbeing of the species. Just not by spreading my own defective gene set.

[Alexandros]

What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.

[Lessthanzero]

ooh excellent thread

I travel a lot and need to be free to roam. Everyone I know who is married and/or has kids just ends up bitching about what a burden it is. Scares the shit out of me

there's too many people in this world to settle on just one person for the rest of your life. Like these kids getting married at 18, 19, and 20. How the fuck do you know you've found the one you want to be with for the rest of your life at that age?

I've never been one to adhere to the "proximity relationship" thing either. Just because I live in one town doesn't mean my dream partner isn't living somewhere else entirely

[theimage13]

I'm 26, and currently, not sold on the idea of having kids. I'd always thought "not gonna happen, period," until this year. Then I started to open up to the possibility. Part of the problem is that I just don't have that instant "awwww, isn't that cute" reaction to things that little kids do. And frankly, I think most babies are pretty ugly. But then I think about the fact that they aren't kids forever, and when I'm older, I think I'd like to have a relationship like the one I have with my parents now.

Also, I currently work a job where traveling (literally not being home) 40-48 weeks out of the year isn't unheard of, and the pay isn't all that fantastic either. So...never home, and not making loads of money? Even if I somehow manage to find a woman willing to settle down with someone like me, I can't see how adding a child to the mix would work.

[leo3375]

I'm married but don't have any kids… yet. I've been delaying it because I'm not so sure my husband and I can handle the financial burden of kids (Who looks after them while we're working? If I decide to take a year off to be a stay-at-home-mom, can my husband's income take care of us?) I know my husband wants kids sooner than later but he understands that it will ultimately be my decision.

[theruiner]

\I have never wanted children that I can remember. I doesn't mean I dislike kids, though I have no desire to take care of them, but I am not willing on any level to devote 18 years of my life to raising another human. And yes, that is selfish. But guess what? So is choosing to have your own kid instead of adopting. It is. And that's fine. But it is. We make selfish choices every day.Totally agreed.

And being selfish isn't always a bad thing. People throw that word around as if it's always a negative. If you want to go to college to become a doctor but your parents always had their hearts set on you becoming a lawyer, guess what? You're being selfish. But is anyone going to look down on you for choosing your own path in life and doing what makes you happy? People are ok with that example, but when you say, "Well, kids just aren't for me," suddenly it's, "Oh my GOD, you are so selfish, get over yourself." How is it any different?


And it's SO NOT OKAY to tell me I'll "change my mind" or even to say that I might. You might change your mind about being a Christian or being gay.I'm not crazy about people telling me that, either. It's not so much them raising the possibility of me changing my mind, since that's stating the obvious. If they meant it in an innocuous way, where they're just pointing it out, ok. Yes, it's possible I could change my mind. But people generally don't seem to mean it as an innocent, non-judgmental statement. The subtext a lot of times is, "No, no, no, you will change your mind, when you get a little older and a little wiser, you'll see the error of your ways." And that kind of crap drives me up a wall. It's so presumptuous. It's the same sort of thinking as, "Well, when you're older and you have a little bit of money, you'll become a Republican." Um, no. As if your point of view and decision isn't based on anything solid, or that it isn't valid, and it's just a matter of time before you come to your senses.

[NIN64]

My Wife and I have been together for almost 10 years and married for 5. We don't have kids yet for two reasons. First kids are expensive. My Wife and I are financially stable, but the way things are here in the U.S. we're worried that could change any day. We are terrified that as soon as we have a kid one of us might lose our job and we would be fucked. Second The World is kind of a shitty place at the moment. Who are we to bring another life into this mess. Here is the thing that really grinds my gears. When we were first engaged everyone kept asking us the same thing. "You're too young to get married; are you pregnant?" Now that we have been married for a while we keep getting asked a new question. "Married five years, and no kids; is everything okay between you two?" Seriously, I will lose my shit next time someone asks that...

[Halo Infinity]

I actually don't mind married couples and parents as long as they don't criticize and condemn others just because they don't want to have children or get married. However, the married couples and parents that actually go out of their way to make an attempt ridicule and vilify people that are childfree claim that anybody that's childfree and unmarried doesn't really know anything about love, and they certainly rub it in when they talk about how they're at a higher level love. That is, well, until they get divorced or end up with miserable children that hate them. And let's face it, not all children are pleasant. Some children are just downright obnoxious, arrogant and cruel. Assholes and ingrates come in all ages. That's why I just don't buy the whole idea that children are blessings. A beneficial end-product is more of a blessing from my perspective.

I'm sure most of you have been subject to the following questions/comments as well. I know I certainly have. Even if you don't flat-out reveal that you don't want to have children, they act like it's a fluke of nature with in you. As for the questions/comments, here they are. (I just filled in some responses that might be useful. You could make up your own responses if you'd like. "Childfree Bingo" is sometimes fun.)

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?

(To this I say, children are not a pension plan. Some children might resent you for that when they become adults, and not all children remain close to their parents. Some of them just drift apart, especially by the time they're middle-aged.)

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?

(That's not always a guarantee. And well, that idea sort of creeps me out. I would not want another me. I have too many flaws, and I wouldn't want to spread them. If contraception fails, I'd hope for that child to be the complete opposite of me.)

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?

(This bothered me because a true legacy in my opinion is not putting other human beings into this world, when you, yourself, have a more than enough problems of your own to deal with. Besides, just because you're a genius doesn't mean that your child will become one too. See number 2.)

4. What if you fall in love?

(I don't know. What part of "don't want" do you deliberate chose to ignore and/or misunderstand?)

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?

(I could say the same about you.)

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?

(I'm sure there's more to life than procreation.)

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.

(So what? If I'm dead, I wouldn't be able to care about that now would I? And stop worrying, there's far more than enough people to go around, and you should be thankful that there aren't more people like me in the first place.)

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?

(Why didn't you want to become an astronaut, a soldier, a lawyer or a surgeon? Oh yeah, that's right. Those aren't the jobs for you, just like how having children and parenthood aren't the jobs for me either.)

9. When are you going to have children?

(When will you stop being so nosy?)

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree.

(Yeah, obviously, but an existent childfree person would have to be subject to the arguments you bring up.)

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.

That. Is. Not. A. Valid. Reason. To. Make. More. Humans.

I think I went to town with this long enough, and I'm sure there's far more questions for "Childfree Bingo". You can find most of them here.

http://www.happilychildfree.com/

And for some comic relief, here's a joke I found on Google. I'll make sure to paste it in bold and blue letters. I have no idea who coined it.

A husband and wife are waiting at the bus stop with their nine children. A blind man joins them after a few minutes. When the bus arrives, they find it overloaded and only the wife and the nine kids are able to fit onto the bus. So the husband and the blind man decide to walk. After a while, the husband gets irritated by the ticking of the stick of the blind man as he taps it on the sidewalk, and says to him, "Why don't you put a piece of rubber at the end of your stick? That ticking sound is driving me crazy." The blind man replies, "If you would've put a rubber at the end of YOUR stick, we'd be riding the bus ... so shut the hell up."

And for the record, I wouldn't dislike children for just being children. That's just ageist and wrong. However, I only like or dislike them based on their personalities in the same way I'd regard a teenager or an adult.

[frankie teardrop]

the correct response to disarm someone asking the ever persistent "so when ya gonna have kids" question is to grimace and say:

"we're unable to conceive"

works every time, especially if one of you starts quietly sobbing.

[Halo Infinity]

the correct response to disarm someone asking the ever persistent "so when ya gonna have kids" question is to grimace and say:

"we're unable to conceive"

works every time, especially if one of you starts quietly sobbing.
Awesome. Now that's a good one. :)

[botley]

What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.
Define "essential". Marriage is supposed to be a union of two people, after all... if they find having another person united to them is essential to what defines who they are, then I'm not going to be terribly interested in them. This is a discussion you should have relatively early in a long-term relationship (within the first year or so) and if they aren't going to budge on their opinion then it's a pretty clear sign there'll be trouble down the road.

[theimage13]

the correct response to disarm someone asking the ever persistent "so when ya gonna have kids" question is to grimace and say:

"we're unable to conceive"

works every time, especially if one of you starts quietly sobbing.


I just came extremely close to spitting food out of my mouth with the addition of that last line.

[Tea]

I would never, ever have my own child instead of adopting. And that's if my mind does a total flip in what I want in life, because I can't see wanting a child at any point.

I am married, but I didn't find it a necessary part of our relationship. My husband did- to him, it means sharing our love with our other loved ones (which we symbolized in our ceremony) and a way to show each other that we are fully committed, beyond everyday words and actions. I respect this fully, but had to take out any part of marriage I find sexist- there was no veil, my father did not give me away, I still have my birth name, and the color of my dress did not indicate the status of my virginity. I had a lot of people here actually bitching at me about not taking on his name, and it pissed me off more than I can say. Not to mention that I got bitching because my ring isn't gold or a diamond- seriously?
In other words, we made marriage what we believe it's about; in the end, marriage is for you and your partner, and doesn't have to have any relation with its past.
It pains me that homosexuals can't marry, and I do everything in my power to fight against this, but I can't let the stupidity of this country's politics damage my relationship's progression.

[icklekitty]

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?

The woman who raised me had no children and I loved her until her dying breath and beyond.

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?

No, I'm not a narcissistic cunt

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?

No, I'm not a narcissistic cunt

4. What if you fall in love?

Then I fall in love. Point?

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?

No, you are. How about those children crying out for parents while you shit out a kid?

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?

Because I'm not a narcissistic cunt.

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.

Good.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?

I do, I just don't need to vaginally excrete a version of myself.

9. When are you going to have children?

When I am fit for children to depend on me.

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree?

Yep. I wouldn't really mind if I never existed or my parents never existed. One of them is the product of incest and none of us changed the world.

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.

So go forth and pedophilia.



Ok, that was quite blunt, but I don't not believe any of it.


You guys are totally one of the best couples ever.

Literally the objective truth. <3

[NIN64]

That is the other thing. My wife and I agreed (prompted by my insistence) that she keep her name. She has worked too hard to make a name for herself, and it is foolish for her to change it now. Thing is my family, and her grandparents, refuse to accept it. They send letters, and emails, and what not addressed to her with my last name. Also my "friends" and co-workers say that she kept her name because "I have no balls". . .

[theruiner]

Your friends and co-workers are sexist. So is your family. They're also being incredibly rude by not respecting you and your wife's wishes. You're doing the right thing, so screw what they think.

[Tea]

That is the other thing. My wife and I agreed (prompted by my insistence) that she keep her name. She has worked too hard to make a name for herself, and it is foolish for her to change it now. Thing is my family, and her grandparents, refuse to accept it. They send letters, and emails, and what not addressed to her with my last name. Also my "friends" and co-workers say that she kept her name because "I have no balls". . .

Have you asked them why they think it's fair to force that upon someone? The reasoning I heard was "What if you have kids one day- they won't feel like you're a real family." If it takes marriage and the same last name to feel like you're in a real family, then you don't understand family. And if it's that important, why aren't you bugging the man as well- he is welcome to take my name!

[allegro]

That is the other thing. My wife and I agreed (prompted by my insistence) that she keep her name. She has worked too hard to make a name for herself, and it is foolish for her to change it now. Thing is my family, and her grandparents, refuse to accept it. They send letters, and emails, and what not addressed to her with my last name. Also my "friends" and co-workers say that she kept her name because "I have no balls". . .

Meh, that same shit happened to me, ignore it. People can use whatever the fuck name they choose. It's nobody else's business. Ultimately, it's not important. It's just a name. No more.

If you really want to fuck with them, both of you change your surname to "EatMe."

[Halo Infinity]

That is the other thing. My wife and I agreed (prompted by my insistence) that she keep her name. She has worked too hard to make a name for herself, and it is foolish for her to change it now. Thing is my family, and her grandparents, refuse to accept it. They send letters, and emails, and what not addressed to her with my last name. Also my "friends" and co-workers say that she kept her name because "I have no balls". . .
What the fuck? Seriously? That's actually an issue? That shouldn't even be their damn business. I'm just far more appalled that they're being so petty about something like that.


Have you asked them why they think it's fair to force that upon someone? The reasoning I heard was "What if you have kids one day- they won't feel like you're a real family." If it takes marriage and the same last name to feel like you're in a real family, then you don't understand family. And if it's that important, why aren't you bugging the man as well- he is welcome to take my name!
Oh yes, that's certainly one of the most condescending and presumptuous critiques married couples give to unmarried couples. If there's love, a positive rapport, and a secure foundation, that's all the truly matters.


Your friends and co-workers are sexist. So is your family. They're also being incredibly rude by not respecting you and your wife's wishes. You're doing the right thing, so screw what they think.

This. +1. Precisely. Their thoughts on that matter don't mean shit, nor should they. It's just so, damn, such people actually make a fuss over those things? And I thought I bitched a lot.

[NIN64]

People can use whatever the fuck name they choose. It's nobody else's business. Ultimately, it's not important. It's just a name. No more.
in the end that is more or less how we feel.

[allegro]

Okay I wanna play!

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?
Hahaha, go visit any nursing home and see how many people are in there who were completely abandoned by their children. I'll give you a hint: Most of them.

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?
Um, why? That's sick, dude.

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?
I'll do that via my Trust, dude. My Trust won't run off and blow it all on coke and hookers.

4. What if you fall in love?
We'll buy coke and hookers.

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?
Spawning children is the ultimate form of selfish.

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?
Think of how meaningless your life will be when your kids run off with drunken coke addict hookers and you're left alone in a nursing home.

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.
This wouldn't be a bad thing.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?
None of your business.

9. When are you going to have children?
Why are you so ugly?

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree?
Bingo!

[redshoewearer]

I have kids but I want to answer too - I waited over 7 years to have kids, while I was going to school, and it used to piss me off when my husband's relatives would harass us. I thought of many snappy comebacks, most of which I never used. Having kids is a personal choice and I wouldn't think less of anyone who chooses not to have them. It is not like we're running out of people.

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?
The people I'll be able to afford to pay, with the money I saved from not having kids.

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?
If that's why someone wants kids their misinformed, because guaranteed, your kids will NOT be smaller/younger versions of yourself. You will wonder if they are actually really your kids, based on how they act sometimes. They will be 100% themselves.

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?
WTF does that even mean? Legacy? Life is about the good you put back into the world - you don't need kids to do that.

4. What if you fall in love?
What does that have to with anything.

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?
It is selfish, in a way, to have kids.

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?
If you are having kids only to give your life meaning, you are really selfish!

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.
And your point is?

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?
Uh, what if my kids turned out like you?

9. When are you going to have children?
Do you want to wait in the living room? We can go start trying now....

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree?
Yeah and I wouldn't know about it if I wasn't here.

[allegro]

Those are good answers, too, RedShoes.

My own personal answer to this question is: I don't know. It's changed but, well, shit happens. It's all worked out and I'm happy. I'm happier than some of my friends WITH kids.

[Halo Infinity]

If I actually encounter or find more bone-headed questions, I'll make sure to post them here. Thank you all for the laughs and breaths for fresh air so far. I really appreciate them. I've witnessed married couples and parents having the audacity in all seriousness to claim that people without a marriage or children had less meaningful, interesting and fulfilling lives. I clearly don't buy it, but how is that not insulting? They're basically implying that the childfree and the unmarried are sad, boring losers that have no lives.

This thread could also use some Bill Hicks too. If only ad infinitum were here right now. ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pe9zw9iQK8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqtcb66Yeyo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV0wwzwhMdI

[Alexandros]

No one answered me so I'm reposting my question (sorry about that, I won't re-repost it however, I promise), because I'd really like to know what you guys think about a situation like this:


What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.

[icklekitty]

^^I don't really know. Perhaps I'd be like Tea and go through with it for them. But then, if they found marriage *essential* would I even get past a few dates with them?



9. When are you going to have children?
Do you want to wait in the living room? We can go start trying now....


HA! I LOVE this. Next time someone asks me I should just have sex in front of them.

[Alexandros]

^^I don't really know. Perhaps I'd be like Tea and go through with it for them. But then, if they found marriage *essential* would I even get past a few dates with them?

I don't think it's that simple. You would be surprised (or maybe not) at how entrenched the idea of marriage is to some. That person could be (almost) perfect for you, yet retain that one notion. And sometimes it may well not be their notion anyway, it depends on what sort of society you live in and what the family thinks. It's all well and good to say "I don't believe in marriage, I'd rather avoid it", but would you really want to put your partner in a place where he/she has to deal with a disapproving family? And for what is simply one day of ceremony and a signature in a piece of paper? I know it sounds like the coward's way out and a compromise one shouldn't be forced to do, but it is something to think about.

[theimage13]

Okay, I got bored and decided I'd play along.

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?

I'll worry about that IF I get old. As it is, I sure as hell won't be taking care of my parents when they get old - I love them dearly, but I'll never be able to afford it financially. And who's to say my kids won't hate me?

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?

I've already been a younger version of myself. I was THERE. I don't need to see it again - I was kind of a pain in the ass more often than I'd like to admit. Why subject myself to that all over again?

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?

Legacy? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm a nameless blue collar worker. When I'm done, I'm done.

4. What if you fall in love?

I'll keep my mind open, but I don't see this happening until I'm at an age where my partner would have already realized that she doesn't want kids, either.

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?

You just asked me if I wanted to raise a "little version" of myself. Who's selfish, again?

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?

The love of a woman...a career that makes you glad to be alive...hobbies...friends...

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.

And the human race will quickly drain every finite resource on the planet if they all had the same views as you. But thankfully, not everyone thinks the way I do.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?

Lack of a financial means to provide for a child (or two). Lack of patience with over-active kids. An appreciation for a good night's sleep, and being able to leave the house when I feel like it.

9. When are you going to have children?

When I win the lottery. Maybe.

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree.

Duh. But they did, so what's your point?

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.

Are you going to be saying that when they take all of your money, pour paint over your brand new TV, total your car, and move away at 18 and vow never to speak to you again?

Yeah...kids? No.

[Halo Infinity]

No one answered me so I'm reposting my question (sorry about that, I won't re-repost it however, I promise), because I'd really like to know what you guys think about a situation like this:
I think botley answered you, and I suppose I'll try to answer your question as well. Oh, and that's no problem at all. If I was curious, asked a question, and didn't receive any responses, I'd try to bring it up more than once too.


Define "essential". Marriage is supposed to be a union of two people, after all... if they find having another person united to them is essential to what defines who they are, then I'm not going to be terribly interested in them. This is a discussion you should have relatively early in a long-term relationship (within the first year or so) and if they aren't going to budge on their opinion then it's a pretty clear sign there'll be trouble down the road.

As for me, I would try not to bring it up. This also has a lot more to do with the fact that I'm very uncertain about marriage altogether. Even if I had the means to provide for a relationship financially, I wouldn't be prepared for marriage mentally or emotionally even though I have a tendency to be romantic. (Then again, marriage obviously isn't all fun, games and romance.) If people want to get married, I'm okay with that, but not if they wanted to prod other people into marriage.

So in several ways, I'm definitely with botley on this one. The same can also be said about a childfree person dating somebody that wants to eventually become a mother or a father.

[Alexandros]

^^I completely missed botley's answer, don't know how I managed to do that! Sorry, botley.

How about the situation which I'm describing in my other post (#33, I am not requoting!), where it may be a bit more complicated than one person's opinion?

[Halo Infinity]

I'll admit that it isn't that simple and can get very tricky. It would also be just like finding that perfect somebody to find out that the somebody you found also wanted to become a parent when you don't want children. Complicated is right. I'm sorry, but I don't have much of an answer for that question right now either. I'm rather stumped on that issue too.

[Tea]

No one answered me so I'm reposting my question (sorry about that, I won't re-repost it however, I promise), because I'd really like to know what you guys think about a situation like this:
I think there's always the chance of compromise, and by that I don't mean totally giving in. If it's the cold and hard legal part that you find gross about marriage, you could do a purely symbolic wedding, involving your loved ones and possibly your religion. That way you both are mentally, ceremonially tied for life- it's really not the state's business anyway, so their thoughts on your relationship shouldn't matter, and why should your partner care about it?

My husband didn't find it essential, but I could tell how much he wanted to go through with it (he even flew out to speak with my parents, since he knew of their disapproval when we started dating), so I wasn't going to tell him no when I wasn't completely negative about marriage, mostly passive.

[theruiner]

Well, I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they posses inside! Give them a sense of pride!

[allegro]

Well, I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they posses inside! Give them a sense of pride!
I decided, long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadow.

[frankie teardrop]

i think i just gave myself a hernia singing along with you.

[theruiner]

See, the problem with kids is, not all of them are going to turn out as cool as us.

[botley]

I don't think it's that simple. You would be surprised (or maybe not) at how entrenched the idea of marriage is to some. That person could be (almost) perfect for you, yet retain that one notion. And sometimes it may well not be their notion anyway, it depends on what sort of society you live in and what the family thinks. It's all well and good to say "I don't believe in marriage, I'd rather avoid it", but would you really want to put your partner in a place where he/she has to deal with a disapproving family? And for what is simply one day of ceremony and a signature in a piece of paper? I know it sounds like the coward's way out and a compromise one shouldn't be forced to do, but it is something to think about.
There is no such thing as someone who is even "almost perfect" for you. That is a lie, perpetuated by greeting cards. You either love someone to the point where you can meet them halfway on issues where you disagree, or you don't. This was an issue for me in my recent failed LTR. We'd had discussions about getting married one day and I was not very open to the idea (except in the weaselly "maybe I will one day when I'm older" way). My ex had it entrenched in her upbringing that she wanted a marriage in order to start her own family unit... not necessarily with kids, but including a public ceremony. I could sort of understand the desire for that, but I wasn't exactly sure whom it would benefit... was she trying to get back at her parents for splitting up? I don't know.

You make a fair point about cultural differences. I wouldn't want to get involved with someone whose family ties are closely entrenched in strict religious rules that I can't get behind, but people fall in love before they look at that shit all the time.

[Halo Infinity]

I think I should've reconsidered what I've just said then. I could understand somebody being a special person to somebody, but such perfection or "almost perfection" doesn't exist. (Considering how all humans have flaws anyway.) Due to such an ideal being perpetuated on cards and such I've said that out of a force of habit. And yes, such cultural differences can create quite barriers between people, inevitably closing certain lines of communication that are needed in order to help the relationship thrive.

[Alexandros]

Oh, I agree about the "almost perfect" being overstated. I just used it in response to icklekitty's post, where she said that she probably wouldn't even get past a few dates with someone who found marriage essential. I wanted to describe a situation where you have gone past few dates and even into a long term relationship, because you get along fine and you see eye to eye with eachother in most issues, but there is just this difference in perspective about marriage.

[icklekitty]

Thing is, marriage is the one issue that's INTEGRAL to your relationship with that person. If you're a vegetarian you get into a relationship with an omnivore, you might be able to be OK with that as nobody's forcing you to be an active part of the meat-eating world, but if you're getting into a relationship with someone that thinks the culmination/ultimate level of a relationship is marriage, that's different. If they found marriage essential and I thought it was meaningless....what's the point of dating them you know it's not going to go anywhere?

Like you say, the idea of marriage is ENTRENCHED to some. So why would I want to date someone that was THAT ADAMANT about getting married when I'm THAT ADAMANT about not getting married? The question you set up involved binary opposites - if one person quite liked to get married and the other person didn't care for marriage, that's an entirely different scenario.

Similarly, I wouldn't date a celibate person or a religious person. To be honest, I've turned down dates with people for far less.

Were you just curious with your question or do you have an agenda to push?

[Alexandros]

Were you just curious with your question or do you have an agenda to push?

Well, I sort of have a personal interest in it, since I'm in a long term relationship (about 7 and a half years now) and the issue of marriage is slowly leaving the realm of a future possibility and entering that of a decision that has to be made sooner or later. The situation is more like what you describe in your latest post, she would like to get married but it's not like she's adamant about it. It's not something religious on her part, but rather the whole ceremonial/celebration thing that appeals to her. She also has quite a large family, and hails from a village in an island, which means that most of them are quite traditionally inclined (not as exaggerated as the Greeks that appear in movies like My Big Fat Greek Wedding, but not that far either). I have not felt pressured either by her or her family, but I do feel that they expect us to be married eventually. And of course they would expect us to have a religious wedding and all, which is something that would be hypocritical on my part since I'm an atheist. But I digress, that's another discussion.

[botley]

Yeah, you kinda picked the wrong thread, assuming this was all actually just a roundabout way of soliciting wedding advice, but if you feel like it's the right thing to do then maybe start setting some terms. Like, don't get married in a church if doing so makes you a hypocrite, and be prepared to explain why.

[icklekitty]

We probably should have a marriage/babies thread to balance things out though, so get on that.

[iamanexit]

I think kids are the devil.
And I think marriage is silly.

That isn't to say I'm not going to one day destroy my body and my values, but for now... no thanks.

Luckily, my sister is both married and pregnant, so it gets me off the hook for the time being.

[theruiner]

I think kids are the devil.
And I think marriage is silly.Marry me.

(ten characters)

[Alexandros]

Yeah, you kinda picked the wrong thread, assuming this was all actually just a roundabout way of soliciting wedding advice

Asking for advice sort of spilled over unfortunately, at first I was simply curious about how you guys would handle a situation like that, because right now in my life I identify more with the Childfree/Unmarried philosophy and I could see a possible snag in a situation where there is otherwise a very good relationship (generally speaking now, not my own). Thanks for the input anyway.

[Jadezuki]

The subject of being childfree always reminds me of one particular gripe I have: I have a few acquaintances who are adamantly and vocally childfree (I do not have kids but I'm not opposed to having them someday). These particularly vocal friends will bitch all the time about "breeders" and how obnoxious they are on facebook, posting every detail of their child's existence - but they themselves do the EXACT SAME THING about their pets. It cracks me up. I actually saw someone post something about how you should beware of hanging cords on blinds, because your cat looking out the window could get tangled up and choke themselves so "everyone with pets should read this! And babies, too, I guess."

[frankie teardrop]

Marry me.


babysit me!

[halloween]

Hey guys! I found this website, very comprehensive information about how to be CHILDFREE
http://bedsider.org/methods

[Eos]

I'm not opposed to the idea of marriage and children in the future, but because I want to finish school and get a career started, those things aren't really a priority right now. My parents and sister are totally supportive of my choice, but my extended family? It's an alien concept to them. Every so often I get bombarded with questions about my love life and when I'm going to start dating someone again (the answer: When I get out of this godforsaken anti-intellectual city and meet someone who appreciates that I'm not an airhead), and I haven't been asked about having kids for a while, probably because I snapped at the last person to ask me that. I guess I should be lucky that I haven't been harangued about my decision to hold off on marriage and kids by total strangers.

[iamanexit]

Marry me.

(ten characters)

teehee!
gosh!

OK, FINE!

[naut]

It's not so much marriage I'm opposed to, rather it's the whole wedding business. What an absolute waste of money.

[Halo Infinity]

It just occurred to me yet again that I intensely dislike it when parents make countless excuses for their children's atrocious behavior. It's no wonder why some of those parents are also horrible to speak to. The nuts really don't fall far from the tree in such cases. I'll suppose that I'll just never understand the "They're just children." cop-outs. Age is no excuse for being a douche bag or a first-class asshole. The same can be said about teenagers too.

[theruiner]

I'll suppose that I'll just never understand the "They're just children." cop-outs. Age is no excuse for being a douche bag or a first-class asshole.Whaaa? Dude, they're just little kids, they don't know any better. This goes beyond life experience; biologically, their brains aren't fully developed. You can't fault them for that. Plus, at that age, bad behavior a lot of the time can be blamed on bad parenting, though, obviously, that's not always the case. Sometimes kids are just being kids, and they have no control of that. It's just where they are in their brain development.

That being said, every time I hear a kid screeching and throwing a giant temper tantrum in the middle of a store I feel like jumping out a window. I don't blame the kid, and really, I don't blame the parent, because I know even the most well-behaved kids can have their moments, but God damn does it drive me up a wall. I have sympathy, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

[sublimaze]

Whaaa? Dude, they're just little kids, they don't know any better. This goes beyond life experience; biologically, their brains aren't fully developed. You can't fault them for that. Plus, at that age, bad behavior a lot of the time can be blamed on bad parenting, though, obviously, that's not always the case. Sometimes kids are just being kids, and they have no control of that. It's just where they are in their brain development.

That being said, every time I hear a kid screeching and throwing a giant temper tantrum in the middle of a store I feel like jumping out a window. I don't blame the kid, and really, I don't blame the parent, because I know even the most well-behaved kids can have their moments, but God damn does it drive me up a wall. I have sympathy, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

Small children can't help it, and while current thought is that parents should not "give in" to tantrums (since that's why the kiddo throws them in the first place), it's just irritating as fuck to everyone around. Older than maybe 4 or 5, the kids should have enough discipline and self-control to not be whiny screaming brats. Those are the kids/parents that piss me off.

[allegro]

When a child or baby is doing that, no matter the age, the parents should remove the child. Period. That's the way it was for many generations, it's proper. That's why there are cry rooms in churches. My mother removed us, her mother removed her, it was always done, for good reason.

Manners aside, it's sad for me to see a young child desperately trying to communicate with his/her mother, while said mother has completely tuned him/her out. I don't give a shit what they're teaching parents, now, that's sending a clear and indelible message to the kid: my mother is abandoning me for her iPhone or her friends; she is not reliable. Meanwhile, I get a migraine from this drama unfolding in Macy's.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Whaaa? Dude, they're just little kids, they don't know any better. This goes beyond life experience; biologically, their brains aren't fully developed. You can't fault them for that. Plus, at that age, bad behavior a lot of the time can be blamed on bad parenting, though, obviously, that's not always the case. Sometimes kids are just being kids, and they have no control of that. It's just where they are in their brain development.

That being said, every time I hear a kid screeching and throwing a giant temper tantrum in the middle of a store I feel like jumping out a window. I don't blame the kid, and really, I don't blame the parent, because I know even the most well-behaved kids can have their moments, but God damn does it drive me up a wall. I have sympathy, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

I think this has more to do with Western-style parenting. In China, according to the following article, parents have tremendous control over their children's behavior. Of course, the Chinese style also seems to require quite a bit more discipline and time on the parent's part.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

[Halo Infinity]

Whaaa? Dude, they're just little kids, they don't know any better. This goes beyond life experience; biologically, their brains aren't fully developed. You can't fault them for that. Plus, at that age, bad behavior a lot of the time can be blamed on bad parenting, though, obviously, that's not always the case. Sometimes kids are just being kids, and they have no control of that. It's just where they are in their brain development.
I'm actually talking about older children and teenagers that are rebellious, rambunctious, obnoxious, noisy and arrogant. I do get your point though, and have taken that into consideration. And you're right, bad parenting is often the blame, as I won't deny that either. Sorry about that though, as I did type that out of anger, but some parents really do allow their children and teenagers to be a pain in the ass to others as if they're never in the wrong.


That being said, every time I hear a kid screeching and throwing a giant temper tantrum in the middle of a store I feel like jumping out a window.
I actually get where you're coming from. As for me, that also makes me feel very awkward.


I don't blame the kid, and really, I don't blame the parent, because I know even the most well-behaved kids can have their moments, but God damn does it drive me up a wall. I have sympathy, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.
Exactly. It's a good thing that you do, but I can see why it has that effect on you regardless.


Small children can't help it, and while current thought is that parents should not "give in" to tantrums (since that's why the kiddo throws them in the first place), it's just irritating as fuck to everyone around. Older than maybe 4 or 5, the kids should have enough discipline and self-control to not be whiny screaming brats. Those are the kids/parents that piss me off.
Exactly. I always thought that there was something wrong with that. Children will be belligerent, and there's no question about that either, but such predicaments will obviously aggravate everybody else surrounding you.


When a child or baby is doing that, no matter the age, the parents should remove the child. Period. That's the way it was for many generations, it's proper. That's why there are cry rooms in churches. My mother removed us, her mother removed her, it was always done, for good reason.
Agreed.


Manners aside, it's sad for me to see a young child desperately trying to communicate with his/her mother, while said mother has completely tuned him/her out. I don't give a shit what they're teaching parents, now, that's sending a clear and indelible message to the kid: my mother is abandoning me for her iPhone or her friends; she is not reliable. Meanwhile, I get a migraine from this drama unfolding in Macy's.
Damn, that's just fucked up. Good listening skills are important in any sort of relationship and that certainly includes the child/parent one.

[theruiner]

^^Oh, I do understand about older kids and teenagers, though. Fuck teenagers with no manners. I know, they might grow out of it and become nice, decent adults. It happens. But they are old enough to know better, without a doubt. I see teenagers all the time hanging out at the local fucking Wal-Mart, running up and down the aisles and generally being loud, obnoxious brats.

Plus, some of it is just bizarre. Today...just today...I'm at the library minding my own business and I hear this voice to the left of me: "Hey, would you like to date us?" This was perplexing, to say the least, so I turn around and it's a couple of teenage girls. I just shook my head and went back to what I was doing and they disappeared somewhere. It was weird. I mean, it wasn't, like, a huge deal or anything, but it was a little annoying (and weird). I'm sure they thought it was really funny for whatever stupid reason.

That being said, I know of young people who are really great and well-behaved, so I know that's possible. And, even though I remember having some obnoxious moments as a teenager, for the most part me and my friends were pretty good kids. We never went around doing anything too awful and were generally pretty nice to people. So. You know. They're out there, too.

[Halo Infinity]

Oh absolutely. Some children and teenagers are very chill and decent folk. Sometimes it's not true and sometimes it isn't, but it shows through their parents because they're also pleasant to speak to. (Since not all kids are like their parents in that regard and vice-versa.) Thanks for hearing me out theruiner. I completely agree with you there as well. :)

And yes, that was weird. :confused:

[icklekitty]

Manners aside, it's sad for me to see a young child desperately trying to communicate with his/her mother, while said mother has completely tuned him/her out. I don't give a shit what they're teaching parents, now, that's sending a clear and indelible message to the kid: my mother is abandoning me for her iPhone or her friends; she is not reliable. Meanwhile, I get a migraine from this drama unfolding in Macy's.

Oh, I see this so often on the bus/in the street and it makes me want to cry. Parents who shout at their kids when they try to speak, or even those that wheel their babies/toddlers onto public transport, turn their pram the wall, and then ignore them for the entire journey. I want to physically hurt these parents. These kids aren't strangers, they're people YOU MADE.

[Ryan]

Oh, I see this so often on the bus/in the street and it makes me want to cry. Parents who shout at their kids when they try to speak, or even those that wheel their babies/toddlers onto public transport, turn their pram the wall, and then ignore them for the entire journey. I want to physically hurt these parents. These kids aren't strangers, they're people YOU MADE.

All the more reason why the world needs to end asap.

[Timinator]

Lots of research has shown that couples with children tend to be unhappier than couples without children.

Further study have shown that this correlation is not causal, though. The real difference is that happier couples make the time to be kind to each other, and this is simply harder - but not impossible - to do when you have kids.

Newspaper article (http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/and-baby-makes-8230-trouble-20111216-1oyrw.html).

[Magtig]

I wanna do it! I wanna do it!

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?
When I become old and infirm, I'm going to turn to Mr. Magnum. Or Mr. Exhaust Pipe. Or maybe Mr. Huge Epic Cliff.

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?
What am I, Dr. Evil?

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?
Oh yeah, like how Paris Hilton continued the legacy of Dick Hilton?

4. What if you fall in love?
Then we'll eat, fuck, and be merry. And we might even include other loving couples in our fucking. And no one will have children, because I have a vasectomy, and all will be right with the world.

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?
It's selfish to have children, and it's selfish to not have children. If you really must care for a future disease carrier, adopt.

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?
How could your life be meaningful with children? I like non sequiturs, do you like non sequiturs?

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.
Not if we become cylons, bitch.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?
Because I fuckin hate children you dildo!

9. When are you going to have children?
When hell pops from nothingness into existence, and then proceeds to freeze over.

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree?
I see you understand cause and effect.

YAY! That was fun.

[Magtig]

What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.
I would take the exact same attitude towards it that I do right now: it's just a piece of paper.

[Aaron]

Whaaa? Dude, they're just little kids, they don't know any better. This goes beyond life experience; biologically, their brains aren't fully developed. You can't fault them for that. Plus, at that age, bad behavior a lot of the time can be blamed on bad parenting, though, obviously, that's not always the case. Sometimes kids are just being kids, and they have no control of that. It's just where they are in their brain development.

That being said, every time I hear a kid screeching and throwing a giant temper tantrum in the middle of a store I feel like jumping out a window. I don't blame the kid, and really, I don't blame the parent, because I know even the most well-behaved kids can have their moments, but God damn does it drive me up a wall. I have sympathy, but that doesn't make it any less annoying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EBOI06r6c4

[theruiner]

^^It was just a matter of time before someone brought Louis in here.

[Aaron]

Honestly, if you've ever read interviews with him, or especially if you listen to WTF With Marc Maron podcast (which is amazing, by the way) he talks, in depth, about how having kids completely revolutionized and resurrected his life. Never thought Louis would make me emotional, but I was downright crying by the end of this episode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERoM_1rGJ0&feature=related. There are 8 parts total, but it's so worth it. If there was ever an argument for having kids, it's Louis CK's life and career since he had them. I'm still at the "fuck it, I'm too young to worry about that shit, fuck you" point in my life, but I can see myself going back to the conversation between Marc and Louis when I'm actually grappling with the decision.

[theruiner]

^^I've heard that whole interview and while, yes, it is awesome, it most certainly didn't even pull me in the direction of having kids.

[candy]

I don't believe in marriage. Which is to say, I don't mind what other people do, and I'm not judging anyone who chooses to get married at all, but to me it's an arbitrary thing. You can be just as in love, just as dedicated and have a relationship on the same level without going through a special ceremony or getting a piece of paper.

Like I said, though, it all depends on the people involved. For some people, it really does make some sort of a difference for them, and that's great. For others (myself included), they don't feel a need to do that to feel like their relationship is complete. I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but the way a lot of people talk about marriage really irks me, as if there is some actual innate difference that makes marriage better than just being in a relationship, and if you're not married then you're not on the same level as people who are, or your relationship is somehow not as valid, which is just blatantly untrue.

As far as kids go, I decided many years ago that I didn't want any, and I still feel the same. Kids are great, but I don't want any of my own. There are tons of actual reasons, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the way my brain is "wired" (for lack of a better term). I just don't have that natural urge or instinct to have children. Like I said, there are other factors as well. I love kids, and I'm sorry, I'm sympathetic to parents who are dealing with this, I really am, but every time I'm in a store and I hear some kid screaming his/her head off, I thank my lucky stars I don't have any of my own. It's just not something I want to deal with. Just as an example.

But, like I said, at the end of the day, if I really wanted children, if I had that drive, then I don't think the negative aspects of raising a child would prevent me from doing so. It's really the inherent lack of an interest in having children that stops me, not any other reason.

This. Absolutely and entirely this.

Would you like to... uh.. not marry me? ;)

[Goldfoot]

Manners aside, it's sad for me to see a young child desperately trying to communicate with his/her mother, while said mother has completely tuned him/her out. I don't give a shit what they're teaching parents, now, that's sending a clear and indelible message to the kid: my mother is abandoning me for her iPhone or her friends; she is not reliable. Meanwhile, I get a migraine from this drama unfolding in Macy's.

While I'm not saying this is necessarily a good way to threat children, you don't know anything about their situation other than what you observe at the store. I've witnessed countless times, with my sister and her kids, where the children CONSTANTLY interrupt for non-important things. It's one thing if the kid actually needs something important or is an emergency, but going along with the development of their brains, they need to be taught when it is appropriate to talk to people. If they are clearly talking to someone else, whether it's in person or on a phone, they need to learn courtesy and patience enough to wait.

[allegro]

While I'm not saying this is necessarily a good way to threat children, you don't know anything about their situation other than what you observe at the store. I've witnessed countless times, with my sister and her kids, where the children CONSTANTLY interrupt for non-important things. It's one thing if the kid actually needs something important or is an emergency, but going along with the development of their brains, they need to be taught when it is appropriate to talk to people. If they are clearly talking to someone else, whether it's in person or on a phone, they need to learn courtesy and patience enough to wait.
IGNORING them is not the way to teach that. TELLING them what is unacceptable behavior is the way to teach that (and it doesn't give the rest of us a fucking migraine).

[Goldfoot]

IGNORING them is not the way to teach that. TELLING them what is unacceptable behavior is the way to teach that (and it doesn't give the rest of us a fucking migraine).

But you don't know how much of explaining may have gone on before the situation you witnessed. Again, I'm not blindly condoning this entire course of action, but I know that at a point you have to understand that the child KNOWS what you have said and is just testing to see how much you meant it. And when you are in public, they know the stakes are higher. They do. They may not be fully developed, but they are masters at manipulation in certain regards. A child will be told no by one parent and then immediately go ask another parent, or even a grandparent, for the same thing. They understand that the adults haven't had time to talk to each other about what is going on and they just want to hear the word "yes". So yes, in certain cases ignoring them may be the way to properly teach them.

[allegro]

Dude, I have god children in their 20s, I wasn't born yesterday, I ran a successful babysitting business for many years, and majored in Child Development in high school. I know all about what you're taking about, but that was NOT the situations I'm talking about. These weren't children; these were BABIES. None more than two years old.

These moms are DEAF to this. Honest. It's the new hip rich parenting method: ignore them, they are a fashion accessory like a Coach bag. Even when the kid is reaching out to topple a giant display at Crate and Barrel, no shit, I've seen it too many times.

My mom raised two kids as a single parent. And when she goes to a restaurant, she asks to sit where there are no kids.

If you want to teach your screaming misbehaving kids by ignoring them, you do that AT HOME and NOT in public.

[Goldfoot]

Dude, I have god children in their 20s, I wasn't born yesterday, I ran a successful babysitting business for many years, and majored in Child Development in high school. I know all about what you're taking about, but that was NOT the situations I'm talking about. These weren't children; these were BABIES. None more than two years old.

Ok, while I will admit that what I have been referring to doesn't apply to what you were talking about, you must admit you weren't clear in the age of these children. The term "young child" is NOT synonymous with "baby" and therefore I wasn't under the impression that it was an infant you were referring to.

[allegro]

Okay, I concede that you could misread it (although Icklekitty didn't). To me, a "young child" is still a two or three year old. Which isn't an infant, either.

Either way, a public place is not the place for it, no matter the age. Remove them. Even Super Nanny does that.

[Halo Infinity]

Dude, I have god children in their 20s, I wasn't born yesterday, I ran a successful babysitting business for many years, and majored in Child Development in high school. I know all about what you're taking about, but that was NOT the situations I'm talking about. These weren't children; these were BABIES. None more than two years old.

These moms are DEAF to this. Honest. It's the new hip rich parenting method: ignore them, they are a fashion accessory like a Coach bag. Even when the kid is reaching out to topple a giant display at Crate and Barrel, no shit, I've seen it too many times.

My mom raised two kids as a single parent. And when she goes to a restaurant, she asks to sit where there are no kids.

If you want to teach your screaming misbehaving kids by ignoring them, you do that AT HOME and NOT in public.
Seriously, that was very spot on. I've seen many parents do what you've just said, and I'm appalled at what they allow their children to do. And yes, some of them have actually paraded their children around as fashion accessories too.

[think i'm a fire engine]

There are seven billion people on the planet. It should be illegal to create more until we figure out what to do with the ones we already have.

[leo3375]

Okay, I'll bite.

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?
I'll figure it out as I get closer to that point.

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?
Not right now. And I would want the kid to be his/her own person, not a Mini-Me.

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?
Simply put, I'm not sure I can afford it right now.

4. What if you fall in love?
I'm already married. I'm in love. I just choose not to procreate at this point in time.

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?
I need to take care of myself before I can take care of another person.

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?
There's more to life than having children. Helping the needy, rescuing injured animals, giving of yourself add tremendous meaning to life.

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.
This is a stupid straw man argument. Humanity wouldn't die out, but it certainly wouldn't increase in population like it is right now.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?
It's not that I don't want to become a parent. It's that I don't think I can handle the financial side of having children right now.

9. When are you going to have children?
When I'm ready. And that's none of your business.

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree.
Again with the stupid straw man argument. I'm here, aren't I?

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.
Not gonna disagree, but they aren't beautiful when they misbehave and parents are too scared to discipline them.

And a note to parents: don't be afraid to discipline your child in public. This does not mean you have the right to physically abuse or yell things at your child that would make even the saltiest of sailors blush. It means that you should deal with your child's tantrums before they turn into meltdowns. Keep your child under control and don't let them run off. Make them clean up any messes they make. Make them return anything they took without paying for and then apologize for taking it.

[think i'm a fire engine]

I thought it was gonna go something like this.




11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.
What are you, some kind of a pervert?

[hellospaceboy]

Before we got married, my fiancee (now my wife of almost 10 years) and I sat down and decided that we don't want biological children. We were serious about it, because there are many children who are already alive that need families, and we think having bio-kids is selfish. We might adopt one day, or maybe we won't. We'll see, but either way we're not in a rush.

I went ahead and got a vasectomy when I was 23 (3 years into my marriage, so we didn't jump the gun). The best thing I ever did. However, I'd like to point out that our doctor made us go to therapy for 6 months before he did the surgery! I actually see his point, since it's irreversible, and I was very young, but still...

Anybody can have kids. You can be a 14 year old white trash high school drop-out, and chances are people will still congratulate you and tell you that being a mom is wonderful and a fucking miracle. You can be incompetent, and not ready, broke, whatever, and you can have a baby.
But when you want to make a decision NOT TO have one, oh no, are you sure about it? You should think it over a million times, and meditate on it, and you're so weird.

It's also considered strange to actually MAKE A DECISION, people just got used to the idea that pregnancy is something that just HAPPENS.

[icklekitty]

If you want a vasectomy, you can still have kids. Just go to the orphanage and adopt one that aforementioned 14 year old white trash shat out a few months ago.

Most children in this country wait over two years to get adopted. All we need to wait is 9 months; lucky us.

[Elke]

The adaption procedure in Belgium is ridiculous, no idea how it is in other countries. But it's easier to legally bring home a black market Chinese baby than to adopt a Belgian orphan.

[hellospaceboy]

People in the US have the common misconception that adoption is expensive and takes forever. Getting a white infant IS. It might be quicker to get a cute little infant from China...

But if you adopt an older child, 4+ year old, through the public system (out of orphanage or foster care), it's not costly and it's very reasonable. Saddens me that people look at these children as "damaged goods", because they WILL have some issues, but you know what, fair enough. They are children who don't have families, of course they'll have issues!

[mixxy]

I have never wanted children that I can remember. I doesn't mean I dislike kids, though I have no desire to take care of them, but I am not willing on any level to devote 18 years of my life to raising another human. And yes, that is selfish. But guess what? So is choosing to have your own kid instead of adopting. It is. And that's fine. But it is. We make selfish choices every day. I think having a child instead of adopting isn't ideal, but it's not my choice, I'm not having children, so do what you want and good for you. I think having multiple children instead of adopting is kind of shitty.
I'm so glad you said this, because I feel exactly the same way. It boggles my mind how people cannot perceive that having multiple children is just as selfish as choosing not to have any.

Also, it's not about not liking children - well, not for me anyway. I'm a teacher; it goes without saying that I like children, but raising them and devoting your life to them (which I think you have to do to be a good parent) is an entirely different thing. I think of my life now, the freedom I have to do what I want when I want, whether that be something major like travel or something minor like watch an entire television show uninterrupted after a long day, I cannot imagine giving that up. I also think I'm just not that "motherly" which I know is a stereotypical thought, but I just don't think I'd get out of raising children what many women get.

That said, I also believe that there are many women who do not truly question their desire to have children. Yes, many of us live in societies where women have a choice, but I still see many women just falling into the role, so to speak. I don't necessarily mean unintended pregnancies, but I mean just assuming that having a child is just what people do after a certain stage of their relationship. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a lot of self-reflection on the part of women on whether it's what they really want - I think there is still a lot of expectation there for us to bear children. I know I still get the questions from people.

Oh and one last thing, I despise the Duggars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_Kids_and_Counting) and their 19 children for encouraging such selfish reproduction in a world overpopulated and with so many children already in need of families.

[Magtig]

I was thinking about one of those questions the other day, the whole "but if you don't poop babiez the humans will end!" Well guess what, if we have too many babies the same thing will happen. You see it in nature all the time when a species overpopulates for whatever reason, and then has a massive die off.

Babies cause massacres. You heard it here first.

[icklekitty]

Dogs and cats get neutered and spayed. They're cleverer than us.

[Elke]

Also, it's not about not liking children - well, not for me anyway. I'm a teacher; it goes without saying that I like children, but raising them and devoting your life to them (which I think you have to do to be a good parent) is an entirely different thing. I think of my life now, the freedom I have to do what I want when I want, whether that be something major like travel or something minor like watch an entire television show uninterrupted after a long day, I cannot imagine giving that up. I also think I'm just not that "motherly" which I know is a stereotypical thought, but I just don't think I'd get out of raising children what many women get.

This. I know a couple of women who work in education and made this deal: as long as they're working with kids or (in my case) unruly teenagers, they're not getting kids of their own.

Also, I'd think I'd be a really crap mother. So it would be rather unfair to do that to someone.

[theimage13]

Not that I needed another reason, but...

Average cost of raising a child: $241,000 (http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/14/pf/cost-children/index.html)

[binaryhermit]

$241,000 is a little rich for my blood. Plus, between my psoriasis and various (likely genetic) mental quirks I'd rather not bring someone into this world who's more likely than average to suffer from these ailments.

[icklekitty]

That grinds my gears a lot. I'm involved with a PCOS charity. Symptoms include weight gain (leading to diabetes), female baldness, crazy periods, infertility, excess hair, depression, a suicide rate that is 7 times higher, and a bunch of other things. The women that have it, that I have met, are all really down by it, say it's ruined their lives, that they have no confidence etc. Their one wish in live? To have children, to the point of a million cycles of expensive IVF. Presumably, so they can breed more insecure self-loathing women?! WHY?

[theimage13]

Because for some reason that I have yet to grasp, parenthood as touted as the most extraordinary high in the world. And while some people are smart and compassionate enough to adopt, most have it ingrained that the only acceptable way to have a child is to have it themselves - nevermind the fact that it might not be in the best interest of that potential child.

My own stance: I'm 99% sure that I don't want kids, as I don't like babies or children. But I do have days where I think about the relationship I have with my parents and think "at that age, I bet I'd want to have an adult son/daughter to share stories with", and I have to remind myself that kids aren't diaper burning snot bags their whole lives. But I'm also scared shitless that the whole "unconditional love" thing couldn't apply to a child who I adopt the same way I'd adopt a dog or a cat, and that the only way I could even possibly love a child unconditionally is if I shared a genetic connection with it from day one. But I don't really believe that would make some magical switch flip either. So...yeah, highly unlikely that I'll ever be a father. Which will probably cost me any chance I have of marrying before I'm 40. But a child is not something I'm going to accept just to tie the knot.

[binaryhermit]

as I don't like babies or children.There's also that. But the fact that my genes are fucked is more important than that, IMO.

[rhet]

the correct response to disarm someone asking the ever persistent "so when ya gonna have kids" question is to grimace and say:

"we're unable to conceive"

works every time, especially if one of you starts quietly sobbing.

I usually say "I'd rather have dogs". It's the line I've been giving my mother since I was like 13 and by now she's learned not to ask me about kids and not to be disappointed if I never have any. Which is the plan. The rest of my family on the other hand... theres a new batch of babies every time I go home so she gets her fill of cuteness.

EDIT: also, i had a couple of months where I wanted babies DESPERATELY and it really threw me but it turns out that can be a side of effect of changing birth control! Thank god I'm back to my baby-hating self.

[marodi]

I'm very happily unmarried and most definitely single for life (I'm aromantic, something people around me can't understand but it's their problem, meh) and I don't have kids and never will have them.

However and this is where I differ from some of you: I love kids. I get along with them perfectly. I love spending time with my nephews and niece. And I have one of those faces that little kids are attracted to. In public, little kids come to me all the time.

I wanted at least one child for a long time; I was picturing myself adopting from another country. But it never happened and honestly, I don't think I would have the patience to raise a kid today. It was never meant to be and I'm alright with that.

But I have no problems with kids. I do have a lot of problems with irresponsible parents, however.

[rhet]

I'm very happily unmarried and most definitely single for life (I'm aromantic, something people around me can't understand but it's their problem, meh) and I don't have kids and never will have them.

However and this is where I differ from some of you: I love kids. I get along with them perfectly. I love spending time with my nephews and niece. And I have one of those faces that little kids are attracted to. In public, little kids come to me all the time.

I wanted at least one child for a long time; I was picturing myself adopting from another country. But it never happened and honestly, I don't think I would have the patience to raise a kid today. It was never meant to be and I'm alright with that.

But I have no problems with kids. I do have a lot of problems with irresponsible parents, however.

i wish i felt like that, but kids make me nervous and my interactions with them always feel super awkward..even with my younger sister sometimes (who's 8). i've just never had that natural maternal instinct or whatever it is. my brother and dad are the sort of people like you that kids flock to and its a wonderful thing to watch but just not me.

[rhet]

My husband was telling me the other day that he sometimes worries that he'll get to retirement age and wish for a relationship like he has with his parents and a feeling of leaving a legacy but I told him we can start a non profit or something which would help lots of people instead of just a few brats. much more efficient.

[Halo Infinity]

I almost forgot to post another question I came across that went into the selfish category again. And like all the other questions, it just grated my eyes and ears. Are you ready for it? It's just... just read this to see why it had that effect on me... :confused:

Isn't it selfish to refuse to procreate after all the works and contributions generations upon generations of societies and civilizations have brought forth to bring you into this planet? Don't you feel like you owe it to them to keep the species going after all they've done in order to get you here?

(I sometimes look up questions and opinions that oppose the childfree, and that was my latest finding so far.)

[theruiner]

The answer to that is there are plenty of people procreating. The world is not going to suffer because I don't bring more people into it. It's way too crowded already. If anything, I'm doing the world a favor by not making it worse.

Besides, I won't live my life based on what other people want. We all only get one shot at this life, we should be damn sure we do everything we can to live authentically and happy. I'll be damned if I'm going to bring children into the world that I don't want because society tells me I'm supposed to.

Sorry. I've had a bad night. ha ha.

(none of this was directed at you, Kris)

[Sarah K]

Don't get married because I have yet to find a partner who holds my interest for more than a few months at a time. Admittedly, that is a fault of my own, and generally doesn't have much to do with them. I just get extremely bored extremely easy. I've had two boyfriends who have brought up getting married. It basically causes me to shut down and leave.

I don't have kids because I want to experience life. I have never had any desire to reproduce. And then last year, after a stint in the hospital, I discovered that if I did ever want children, I would have to plan it like a year in advance, give myself shots every day, and be on bed rest the entire time. Fuck that noise.

Also, I don't understand people's obsession with making more people when wey have a ton who need taken care of already. Adopt. I want to be a foster parent someday.

[rhet]

I'm really really easily bored as well when it comes to partners so when I met my husband and didnt get bored with him, I knew it was a good match. We're also lucky/fortunate in that we've both grown in a sort of similar direction..we're both very different from when we first met but fit together even better now than back then. I think it's as much luck as hard work to stay connected and not grow apart over the years personally.

[rhet]

I only really married my partner due to immigration and dead lord do I wish I could have eloped. And I took his last name purely because its sooo much cooler than mine. he originally told me I wasn't allowed to take his name though like the good feminist he is.

[rhet]

Hey, feminism is all about upgrades!

Fair point. There's actually a lot of other way more personal reasons that I won't go into here but the easy explanation that I'm used to rolling out is the one I mentioned above.

[Alexandros]

I was about to talk about this so I'm gonna answer this 2 year old question!

Hah, it's funny you came back to this now, because I'm getting married to the girl in question in a little more than two weeks! It's basically how you said, we've been together for nine years now, so marriage is not really a game-changer for us. And there is also an added benefit: I will be going to Singapore for a PhD as of January, and us being married is the only way she can come and live with me in the campus (which she will). The way things turned out, the decision to marry her proved to be very easy for me (which it wasn't two years back when I posed the question), which in turn was kind of a small revelation. I was like "Of course we'll marry now, I want us to be together over there".

[icklekitty]

Hey, feminism is all about upgrades!

Feminism is about no grades, dummy.

[allegro]

he originally told me I wasn't allowed to take his name though like the good feminist he is.
My feminist spouse didn't want me taking his name, either. I didn't. I use both mine + his for social reasons, but only mine for legal things.

Truthfully, I'm not too hung up about keeping my own name, anymore. My first name + his last name = 4 letters each and that seems kinda cool to me. But, I'M LAZY. It would take far too much work for me to change my name.

[rhet]

But, I'M LAZY. It would take far too much work for me to change my name.

Truth! especially with all my visa/passport crap it's such a pain in the ass. I've changed my name with the bank so people can pay me using the same name in my website/business card but that's about it. I'll get around to the other stuff eventually but sending off my only form of ID to the US for an indefinite length of time makes me nervous.

[ManBurning]

Oh, I don't think i've seen this thread before, which is odd, I would have noticed it, I have a pretty strong feeling towards not wanting kids. It's nothing really different than the reasons most people have already given, so I won't bother reiterating everything that has already been said, just nice to see a thread like this as I thought I was one of the only people on this planet for NOT wanting kids.

Everytime kids come up in conversation with friends of mine and my girlfriend they are always shocked we don't want them. I'm lucky my girlfriend and I both see eye to eye on not wanting children. It's probably one of the biggest things we have in common, the fact we both really dislike the thought of having our own children.

One of my good friends of 15 or so years that I knew since high school just had his first kid this spring with his girlfriend, their kid is only a few months old, but everytime we hang out with them and their kid, it reinforces us why we DON'T want kids. Not that we hate their kid, he's fine and all... well, he doesn't do much other that poop and puke and cry, haha. But that's enough of a reason for us.

[theimage13]

well, he doesn't do much other that poop and puke and cry, haha. But that's enough of a reason for us.

See, I'm only 99.9% on not having my own...and reasons like this are the ones that throw me. I always forget that fact that haven't offspring doesn't always mean having kids. Yeah, they start off as tiny little alien-looking things that don't do anything but eat, sleep (sometimes), and excrete from every orifice - but that phase is only the first few years. And yeah, you've got your tantrum years. But eventually, they turn into humans who are capable of independent and intelligent thoughts and actions. And I feel like when I'm my parents' age, I'd enjoy having an adult offspring who I could connect with. But that alone isn't enough reason for me to flip my near-positive decision to not reproduce.

[ManBurning]

See, I'm only 99.9% on not having my own...and reasons like this are the ones that throw me. I always forget that fact that haven't offspring doesn't always mean having kids. Yeah, they start off as tiny little alien-looking things that don't do anything but eat, sleep (sometimes), and excrete from every orifice - but that phase is only the first few years. And yeah, you've got your tantrum years. But eventually, they turn into humans who are capable of independent and intelligent thoughts and actions. And I feel like when I'm my parents' age, I'd enjoy having an adult offspring who I could connect with. But that alone isn't enough reason for me to flip my near-positive decision to not reproduce.

I agree with you, if you can get past the phase of 0-5 yrs, and 15-19 you're set. Those are the 2 toughest times to be a parent. 0-5 Because they are pretty much totally dependant on your every waking move. Once the kid gets to about 6-10 I think they would be generally pretty fun to hang around. My girlfriends sister has 2 kids, 1 is 3 and 1 is 6. The 6 year old is kinda fun, he's down on all his new video games and such, it's cool. But yeah, the early phases of childhood do not make it worth it in my mind.

Then we have the Terrible, Terrible rebelling teenage stage of 15-19, this stage is almost worse than the 0-5 stage because now you have a young adult that wants to basically question and rebel against your every word. This is where your parenting skills are going to make or break your kid. He can turn into a goddamn crime-ridden hooligan drug addict on the street, or if you play your cards right he might be a well rounded member of society. Sometimes regardless on what you do, you still do not have full control on how he/she turns out. Who the kid hangs around with probably has more influence on their upbringing as teenagers than you do.

If they grow intoa responsible young adult by 25, then I think it is rewarding, as you mentioned you have a responsible person to share their lfie with you like a very close friend. An attatchment like no other. That might be the ultimate payoff for having to put up with all their bullshit during the diaper and teenage years.

Still, those two phases put me off from wanting to be a parent amung others like the cost of raising a child and others thrown into the mix. I just don't think I have what it takes to raise a productive member of society. I hate working to the point where I work just enough hours to be able to live comfortably while putting food on my plate, a roof under my head and the ability to travel for shows at my own free will. I don't want to be tied down into a Mon-Friday 9-5 + overtime job to have to pay for me and my family to survive. To me, that is not living life, that is being a slave to society. The key to a good life is finding a great work-life balance Not working to live or living to work or any of that business. I feel having a child would eliminate the abilty for me to have my freedom.

[theruiner]

Every once in awhile I get a little twinge of, like, maybe it would be nice to have a kid someday. Then when I think about it for more than two seconds I realize that I have absolutely no interest in it. Kind of funny when people say you'll change your mind when you're older. Well, I'm 32 now and I still feel the way I did when I was younger.

Of course, that's a stupid thing to say to someone anyway.

[halloween]

Ughhhh everyone is having babies
People are always having babies. It's only the ones that don't that tend to notice. In my personal social circle I've yet to see the baby bloom season.

[Ryan]

My daughter is 7 months and 1 week old now.

She's in her high chair now screaming out DADADADADAAAAA as I type this. :rolleyes:

[Sarah K]

I fucking hate the YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR MIND bullshit. It implies that people aren't capable of making decisions for themselves. I'd say about 70% of the people I know who have kids have them because of accidents or being careless. Just because you made a huge mistake and are dealing with it doesn't mean I want to join that club. Kthxbye.

I'm going to start telling people it's not too late, and they may regret the mistake of having children.

[theruiner]

Heh. A lot of my friends kind of went through baby making season about 10 years ago. Which I guess makes me old now or something.

[halloween]

Well, welcome to the animal world.

I want a child but I'm really lucky to know what it takes to have one responsibly- meaning, I've been on some from of birth control since about 18. I'm about to get an IUD next month because I didn't want to be taking the Depo shots for too many years out of my life and the pills give me migraines. On the other hand, it would be great if I could adopt.

[Swykk]

There's nothing more annoying to me than little kids. If you dig them, great on you, more power to you, you're infinitely more patient and tolerant than I am but to me they're just loud (but not actually saying anything at all), germ factories, and destructive. You cannot reason with them.

[Wolfkiller]

Snipped at 26. Best decision I've ever made. No accidents here!

[Sarah K]

Snipped at 26. Best decision I've ever made. No accidents here!


How many different doctors did you have to see before you found one who was willing to do it?

How many told you that you were too young to make that choice?

How many told you that they wouldn't do it until you had at least one child?

How many told you that you weren't psychologically prepared to make that choice?

[allegro]

I had a female friend in the 90s who was 26 when she decided she wanted to get her tubes tied and her doctor didn't want to do it until she went and got a signed affidavit from her psychiatrist. Which she did. Total double standard.

Although, my OB/GYN says that he performs tubal ligations on women who've already had a baby or two in their 20s all the time. He's says it's actually the most common form of birth control but people don't know it.

[Wolfkiller]

How many different doctors did you have to see before you found one who was willing to do it?

How many told you that you were too young to make that choice?

How many told you that they wouldn't do it until you had at least one child?

How many told you that you weren't psychologically prepared to make that choice?

I'm not sure if you're honestly asking me or just venting, but I'll answer anyways. I asked my regular doc about it and he referred me to the specialist. Had a consultation with him and if I remember correctly, had to wait x amount of weeks before scheduling the appointment. Midway through the procedure (literally, with one tube snipped) he double checked and told me I could still change my mind at this point. I yelled at him to keep going, and bam. Child free. I did have people tell me prior to making the decision that they wouldn't do it unless I already had a kid or I was over a certain age.
But look on the bright side... at least cutting up your genitals without consent as a baby isn't accepted and encouraged by doctors everywhere! ;D

[Sarah K]

I'm being serious. From about 18 - 25, I tried to get my tubes tied, and couldn't find one single doctor willing to do it. They all just said the same shit about "waiting" and "changing my mind".

It's such a shitty double standard that men aren't questioned on this decision, but women obviously aren't capable of making the decision that is best for them.

My IUD will last until I'm 40. So hopefully they will fucking do it by then.

[Wolfkiller]

My friend had hers done and she's younger than me with no kids. I'll get back to you with her experience with it if you'd like.
Update: Bad news. She had to have a letter of recommendation from her normal doc and a psych exam. Couldn't they just check to make sure you bunch of crazy broads aren't PMSing while asking for the procedure?!

[halloween]

No this is the child free thread

I heart you and think you'll be a great parent but I just wanted to vent about how people are having babies no thx

Very fair and I'm aware of the thread title (I just think it's fair for me to respond too.) I thought I posted in here about me getting an IUD soon. It's ryan that's really confused, talking about his baby in here ;)

[allegro]

Couldn't they just check to make sure you bunch of crazy broads aren't PMSing while asking for the procedure?!
Couldn't they check to make sure you bunch of crazy dudes aren't hungover while asking for the procedure? :p

OB/GYN malpractice insurance is one of THE most expensive malpractice insurances out there, so they're just covering their financial asses. They really don't care if these women don't want kids; the doctors are just protecting their Porsches.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-05-13/health/ct-met-sterilization-denied-20140513_1_tubal-ligation-sterilization-young-women


"I strongly discourage it under age 30 because I've seen so many people change their minds," said Dr. John Merling, a family medicine specialist in Wilmington, Ohio. "They come in and are absolutely sure they want it done."


"Regret is the competent woman's burden, not the doctor's," said Richie, an adjunct professor at the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. "Very few providers of other permanent elective treatments like plastic surgery refuse treatment over fear of regret. Why should sterilization be any different?"

[Wolfkiller]

Couldn't they check to make sure you bunch of crazy dudes aren't hungover while asking for the procedure? :p

Wait, women don't get hangovers?! Goddamn Matriarchy at it again!
I figured it was harder for women to get fixed because it's harder to reverse functionality, but my 30 seconds of googling tells me that the fail rate for reversed procedures are pretty equal. So I dunno. Curious if the age of the doctor or if certain regions (Bible belt for example) has anything to do with how women are treated, or if certain areas men have the same problems.

[theimage13]

I fucking hate the YOU'LL CHANGE YOUR MIND bullshit. It implies that people aren't capable of making decisions for themselves.

I'm going to start telling people it's not too late, and they may regret the mistake of having children.

I don't think it implies that at all. People view the world differently as they grow - thank fucking god that the person I was at 20 wasn't the person I was just three years prior. And there were no big "eye openers" - no drug addictions, no friends getting killed, no going to jail...just three years of living as a boring, fairly normal person, and I changed a lot. I've got almost another decade on that now, and I'm still changing. I don't mean to imply that you, personally, will change your mind about children. I'm simply saying that every single person I know has changed significantly in at least one way from who they were when they were younger, and are continuing to change. That doesn't mean that this topic is one that every single person will change their mind about, but I don't think anyone is trying to insult you and tell you that you're incapable of making decisions.

That said, I still snickered at your last line.

I haven't made up my mind once and for all, but I absolutely love that my girlfriend has already said that if it came down to it, she'd chose a child-free life with me over leaving just so she can have kids with someone. I love being in a position that if I do change my mind, the option is there. And we've both agreed that adoption is the way to go if we ever decided to have a kid (singular), so no poopy diapers here. I keep reminding myself that I may not like little kids, but I do like the relationship I have with my parents, and some day I might like to be on the other end of that. But that's a huge "maybe," and one I'm not sure I want to take a gamble on. I mean....raise a kid and turn out it's not for you? You've messed up that kid's life. Decide not to and wish you had? You've only messed up your own life.

Anyway...if you don't want kids, don't have 'em. We need more people in the world to actually think ​about their parenting abilities and desires before just blindly popping 'em out because it's what they think is just the natural next step in their life.

[halloween]

I read a great piece online that my sister posted but later deleted (because she was embarrassed by how it would be taken, because she has a child) I managed to catch it and I thought it was great. It was a woman explaining how she absolutely loves her children but she absolutely would not have made the same choice, she misses what her life was like before.

The great point she made is that despite knowing motherhood wasn't for her, she still loves her children and she hasn't "messed up the kids life". That happens if you decide to tell the kid those feelings, which she probably never will because she loves them and is being responsible for the decision she made. I mean, the flipside is people who give their kids up for adoption or just play out their misery. It was just interesting to see the less depicted reality of it all appears normal and is happy because she loves her children, but realizes it wasn't the best decision.

[elevenism]

i was supposed to get a ready made family with my wife, but through a perfect shitstorm of bad events, her awful ex husband won custody. so although she has two children aged 9 and 12, she's only spent one month with them in the past couple of years. and now the ex husband won't even let her talk to them on the phone or tell us where they live.
we are starting to think that those two kids are just gone. hopefully she will get to see them when they are grown.

SO...we are childless.
we both just turned 35, and are wondering. her tubes are tied. we have discussed in vitro.

That being said, it MAY be for the best that i don't have a child. i'm not sure if i could really handle the responsibility.

i've been thinking about it a lot. i worry about my spiritual "line" ending. i believe that a part of our consciousness is passed on to our children in some way.

my brother has a 3 year old girl and a 6 month old boy. maybe they are part of my "line?"

also, not to sound like a bitch, but i've been through so much pain in my life. and everyone we love will die eventually. and NONE of us knows what happens to us when we die. So part of me thinks it would be better to NOT bring another being into this world.

I better figure it out pretty quick, seeing as how the mrs is 35.

another thing to consider is that i don't know how much damage she suffered from the meningitis. she has a completely different personality. i know that she is still getting better, but i'm not 100 percent sure that she could manage to raise a child.
i THINK she could but i'm not sure yet.

i think i will be okay with just having the niece and nephew. they are great.
my niece ADORES me, and when i'm done playing with her, she goes back to mommy and daddy!

[allegro]

Nieces and nephews are very okay, elevenism! And, someday, after your wife's children are out from under the thumb of their controlling father, they may want to be back in contact with their mother. You never know. But, you are very wise to know that children aren't pets and require LOTS of responsibility. And In Vitro is no picnic, it's REALLY expensive, requires a lot of shots and meds and is very taxing on the female. Alexis Stewart, Martha Stewart's daughter, was really honest about what bullshit the "In Vitro Is Simple" thing is: she says she spent $27,000 per month for the In Vitro plus an additional $6,000 per month for the drugs she had to inject herself with to stimulate her egg production, and then she had four miscarriages. Ultimately, she paid a surrogate to give birth to her two children.

G and I have godchildren and pets. Lots and lots of pets! And charities and good causes and lots of love to give to nature and flora and fauna.

Not to get too heavy, here, but you may have already had children in a previous life. Or lives. So that's why it may not be that important this time around. And you can have others in future lives. Until your soul is finally fully developed. If you're into that kinda thing. (wink)

[elevenism]

thanks, allegro .

we thought we could get the in vitro for closer to $12-$15,000. And if it's very taxing, after Lorien's brain infection, i don't want to subject her to it.

We have an American bulldog who is damn near like a kid, with all the attention he demands. We have three kitties, and the niece and nephew.

And i have no doubt that her kids will want to contact her when they can.

It has been SO hard for her. You know, in ten years of marriage, her ex husband only worked four. The rest of the time he drank whiskey and played video games. But then, through a perfect storm of bullshit, he won custody...sigh.
I cry for her.
But although her son may have been too young to understand what was happening, her daughter DID. I'm sure she will be back around as soon as she can.

Thank you so much for your words tonight.

[theimage13]

Friend shared this (http://www.therooster.com/blog/10-brutally-real-reasons-why-millennials-refuse-have-kids) today. Some snarky smart-assery in there, but for the most part, some pretty good points. I agreed with the vast majority of what was written.

[botley]

No thank you, madam Speaker.

[theimage13]

No thank you, madam Speaker.

I feel like I missed something.

[Detunez]

Too many people on this planet so i have two reasons not to be interested in having kids at the moment:

- Another "human" on planet "destroyed" and ending.
- I miss any interest in having any child at the moment.

[botley]

I feel like I missed something.

I was just trying to use Parliamentary language.

[theruiner]

I always heard, oh you'll change your mind, oh you'll change your mind. Well, I'm 34 now and I still don't want kids. At all. Even a tiny bit. So...yeah. So much for changing my mind.

[tony.parente]

I forgot this thread existed.

fuck kids

[theruiner]

fuck kids
You...may want to reconsider that wording.

[elevenism]

Marriage was the entire goal of my life. It goddamn sure hasn't "lost its meaning" for us. It WAS and IS the next level of our relationship.
Kids, though, i wanted one bad but always knew that i would be doing the kid a serious disservice because i'm my own baby. Someone has to watch over ME or i will fuck up. So how in the hell could i watch over someone else long term?

So it just so happens that my wife got her tubes tied before we met.
I'm fucking hell bent on us staying together for the long haul, which ain't really that fucking long. Time seems to be speeding up. We've been living as married for 5 years and actually married for 3, and it feels like we just met.
i'm 37 now. ("i'm already five years older" and so forth.)

I have 5 year old niece and i am like the light of her life, like a magical superhero.
And i have a 2 year old nephew who i hope will feel the same.

When they come to visit, my niece basically kicks it with me the entire time. She's even come by herself. So i do some parenting, but i can always give the kids back to their mom and dad if shit gets hectic.

I'm going to teach them to smoke when they are like ten. Not really. PROBABLY not really.

[Big Fat Matt]

Kids suck. They're like people who are smaller and less in control of their minds and mouths.

[GulDukat]

I would like to get married and have kids, but I seem to suck at life.

[kel]

ina garten, aka the barefoot contessa, is easy to despise. her well-to-do, east hampton lifestyle, etc. but she's actually really dynamic and has done some amazing shit. plus she supports and donates substantially to great causes like planned parenthood.

huff post published an article about her choice to not have children and how the decision enabled her to live such an extraordinary life. it was great.

[botley]

I knew this was going to bite me in the ass.

Anyone have a breakup in an otherwise relatively healthy, happy, giving, supportive sexual relationship, simply over a difference of opinion about this?

[botley]

Hopefully something positive comes out of it playwithfire. We're seeing a couples counseling person to work out what the fuck is actually going on but, yeah, breaking up is on the table. Which I think would be a shame but they don't call it a deal-breaker for nothing...

[theimage13]

I knew this was going to bite me in the ass.

Anyone have a breakup in an otherwise relatively healthy, happy, giving, supportive sexual relationship, simply over a difference of opinion about this?

A difference in opinion on that topic is never "simple", sadly. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but wanting / not wanting to have kids is nothing like wanting / not wanting to buy a certain type of car or something. Parenthood is so life-consuming from conception until death that simple is the very last word that would ever come to mind to describe it.

I'm guessing your post means you still have no desire to have children, but your s/o does? If that's the case...well, I really hope that counseling helps. But if they're 100% pro-parenthood and you're 100% anti-parenthood, that's tough - because no matter what solution there is, someone is taking a major life-long compromise. There are certainly options - at least here in the states we have the Big Brother / Big Sister program, which is sort of like being a part-time parent/mentor to a child. I know one couple who were on the fence and decided to adopt a pet first, and realized through that venture that they didn't want the responsibility of caring for a human child. Maybe - hopefully - you'll find that there's a solution that works. It would definitely be awful to lose an otherwise healthy relationship over one difference of opinion, even if it's on a pretty significant topic. Good luck!

[Substance242]

I would love to have children, but this is not about what I want. If only I could believe the future will be OK, peace, economics, jobs, water, wars, climate... I'm not thinking it will definitely go to hell soon, but maybe it will, and do I want to watch my children suffer...? Or, maybe I am just... what is the word for looking for excuses. And maybe I'll find woman with children so this will be solved already. :-)

[theimage13]

The future of the world itself is a very large reason for me not wanting kids. I'm too pessimistic about the future of the planet to think that bringing anyone else into it could possibly be a good idea - for me and for them. IF I ever changed my mind, I would adopt for both selfish and selfless reasons (i.e. skipping the diaper phase, but also I could never justify creating a new life when ~100,000 kids in this country alone are currently without parents and awaiting adoption.)

[Nellyrific]

I’m a 35 year old woman so people seem to be able to see alarms going off around me concerning my biological clock, like it’s do or die time. I hate being asked and I hate the reactions once I do respond. I’m terrified of having children and still very unsure about it. When people tell me I’m missing out I have to remind them of how miserable they are most of the time.

[theimage13]

I’m a 35 year old woman so people seem to be able to see alarms going off around me concerning my biological clock, like it’s do or die time. I hate being asked and I hate the reactions once I do respond. I’m terrified of having children and still very unsure about it. When people tell me I’m missing out I have to remind them of how miserable they are most of the time.

http://brutereason.tumblr.com/post/142573791378/i-find-it-fascinating-that-people-who-choose-not

Love this person's explanation.

[Nellyrific]

http://brutereason.tumblr.com/post/142573791378/i-find-it-fascinating-that-people-who-choose-not

Love this person's explanation.

YES.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boots]

I don't remember seeing this thread before. i'm unmarried and childfree but it's not intentional. None of the men I was involved with ever wanted kids. They didn't wanna get married either. Not to me. I didn't choose this lifestyle.

I think I would've made a good mother. I like kids and I'm a generous person. I have a background in nursing and nutrition. I also know how to budget because I went to business school.

[Lunatica]

I don't think I should have children.

It's like, I like the idea of having a chicken coop, but I don't really want to maintain it or kill the chickens for food. I'd love the free eggs though!

My body on the other hand really really wants to be filled with seed, embarrassingly so, yesterday at work I was caught staring zombie-like at the TV's by a manager. It was a DJ Steve Aoki show. I don't even like DJ's, I don't even think I've ever been attracted to Asians.

But I wanted him to fill me up with his seed.

Fucked up.

[eversonpoe]

I don't even think I've ever been attracted to Asians.

cool, another racist person on the board.

[tony.parente]

I don't remember seeing this thread before. i'm unmarried and childfree but it's not intentional. None of the men I was involved with ever wanted kids. They didn't wanna get married either. Not to me. I didn't choose this lifestyle.

I think I would've made a good mother. I like kids and I'm a generous person. I have a background in nursing and nutrition. I also know how to budget because I went to business school.
The rare female INCEL.

[ryanmcfly]

My wife has been asking about kids alot lately. I'm still mostly Team No Kids. And will be until we are both in our careers. I'm trying to be a teacher, so i need to go get my certification and take some classes and shit still. She's doing her pre-requisites for Vet School. Though, I wish she would decide to be a teacher. She's a supplemental insturctor at the University she goes to and does a really damn good job at it. Plus we would both have summers off for whatever trips we want to go on. So right now is absolutely not the time for it. If we are both teachers or i am a teacher and she's a vet, perhaps then I'll reconsider, but I am at a hard no right now.

End rant. Life has been hard lately.

[Swykk]

Maybe I’ve mentioned this here before but in case I haven’t, I don’t ever want to speak to a kid on the phone. I don’t like talking on the phone as it is so don’t make it worse by telling me someone wants to talk to me and then hand your phone to your toddler. My sister knows better and when I bought my 3 year old nephew a copy of The Diggingest Dog, she texted me when it arrived saying “Owen says Thank You.” That’s how you do it.

Related tip—don’t be the guy/lady/family that lets your kid do your voicemail.

[BRoswell]

I definitely have no interest in having kids. I'm an honorary uncle to my best friend's son, and I'm satisfied with that position. I get to hang out with him for a while, and then when I get tired of that, it's back to his dad. That might sound mean, but it's not meant to be. He's a cool kid, but he will tire you out if you let him. :p

As far as marriage goes, it's not something I'm really aiming for, but if my guy wanted to do it, I wouldn't say no.

[Nellyrific]

I feel like people’s expectations never end. I just got engaged and one of my first thoughts was “great, people can get off my back about that now.” Alas, I’m now asked when the big day is and we are deer in headlights because we’ve been engaged for about 10 minutes. I haven’t thought about it at all and I hate weddings and have no interest in that kind of circus show. I know that once we are married, it’s on to “when are you going to have a kid?” Then it’s “when are you having another one, you can’t just have one!” If I have two girls it will be “when are you going to try for a boy??” Being Armenian doesn’t help...they think you’re a baby factory.

[Lunatica]

cool, another racist person on the board.

You can have a type and not be racist. And I don't really like skinny. I'm just saying it was a nice surprise in my pants.

[Lunatica]

Iirc, Luna is a person of color, y'all. So while that's a problematic as hell thing to say, a racist she is not. However, the avatar sharing with Boots throws me off.

Meh, I tan well and I'm Hispanic. But I am problematic, you're right.

[Lunatica]

I said what you said was problematic, which I can elaborate on if you want, but you know I <3 u bb

No I know, I'm just owning it. <3 u 2 <3<3<3

[theimage13]

Four years, three miscarriages, and 1,616 shots to make a baby (https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/18/health/ivf-rainbow-baby-photoshoot-trnd/index.html) (+$40,000 in fertility treatments)

The profoundly insightful reason: "I wanted a biological child".

I just can't get my head around that. Maybe it's because I'm a guy, so I've spent my whole life knowing that giving birth is literally not even an option. But I can't imagine feeling so strongly about something that I would forgo all other options - ones which would have a more positive benefit to others, no less - in order to take the selfish route. But maybe I'm just a miserable old asshole.

[Swykk]

Kicked a hornets nest full of anti vaxxer moms on Twitter yesterday. You know, having had cancer and all, my immune system isn’t ever going to be 100% again, so I’d rather not have children (who even at their healthiest are STILL living breathing germ factories) of dim witted shitty parents bringing back shit like the measles.

ITS THEIR RIGHT TO CHOOSE, BRO

Humanity is so goddamn disappointing as positive as I keep trying to be.

[ickyvicky]

Ouch. And you don't want to be on birth control pills? IUD's just freak me out, the knowledge of something being inside down there.

[Halo Infinity]

I've actually changed my mind a bit about this, even though I still lean more towards the childfree side of things.

I know that childfree doesn't always mean child/parent haters. I think my only problem was with being pressured and hassled to become a parent or get married or seeing other people getting pressured/hassled for also opting out of parenthood and/or marriage. But that's about it really. So yeah, I don't hate parents and children, since character is everything, and what truly matters/counts.

If I had any problem, it's because I've just been lost on finding value, reason and purpose to life sometimes, and it seems contradictory and even hypocritical to procreate if a part of you stopped believing in propagating life, especially in hopes that you'll put an end to your lineage once and for all with a painless, peaceful and dare I say dignified death, which also isn't obviously always a guarantee. (As in the painless and peaceful dignity, since death and suffering is always a guarantee.) I can't imagine what to tell children if you've just given up on life itself. (Not in a suicidal way, but it really does seem like an endless cycle of grief and death, so I just try to enjoy it while I still can. This is also admittedly the anti-natalism seeping in.)

This would be tough for me to explain to a child or children of mine if I had them. I mean, I might not know so much about life, but looking back at it, it is best to do your best and stay out of trouble and just be good to people and exercise self-control and personal accountability while being the change you want to be in the world as well as benefiting yourself and those around you and just not trying to be a burden and immoral/evil, and am sure I'd do my best to be there for them, guide them and love them, but as far as life in the grand scheme of things, I'm just lost and confused, to the point where it's hard to make "Try to enjoy it while you still can." 100% positive.

And not that I also haven't known this all my life, but there are much more people than I realized that look at marriage as a step to procreation and not just being a loving relationship. Most people I know really still tell me that one of the reasons to get married is to have children, and some of them still asked me what the point of marriage is without starting a family. It also even wasn't always out of religious reasons either. It was sometimes even as simple as "It's just something people do." And while I get how normal that is, since traditions are bound to be ingrained in the majority's minds, I still don't see as to why and/or how it would be ever wrong/bad for a couple's marriage just being about love itself.

Oh right. And there are also a lot more parents than I realized that actually find just having one child abnormal. I didn't realize how much having an only child also stood out. It's like, at least one child is not zero children, right? And while only children can get lonely, not all siblings end up well together in the long-run.

[elevenism]

If I had any problem, it's because I've just been lost on finding value, reason and purpose to life sometimes, and it seems contradictory and even hypocritical to procreate if a part of you stopped believing in propagating life, especially in hopes that you'll put an end to your lineage once and for all with a painless, peaceful and dare I say dignified death, which also isn't obviously always a guarantee. (As in the painless and peaceful dignity, since death and suffering is always a guarantee.) I can't imagine what to tell children if you've just given up on life itself. (Not in a suicidal way, but it really does seem like an endless cycle of grief and death, so I just try to enjoy it while I still can. This is also admittedly the anti-natalism seeping in.)
.

well said. I relate to this, a LOT.

I also think "if I had a kid, what if he was like me ?" And by that, I mean what if the child was mentally ill and struggled with substance abuse issues.

I don't mean to sound nihilistic or joyless, but, SHIT, a lot of my life has been fucking MISERABLE. I've got some bad ass scars from suicide attempts. And, while that was all in the past, I've found myself in the BORDERLINE suicidal boat, PRETTY damn recently. THhen, there is the intense mania (that has annoyed the shit out of some of you , probably ESPECIALLY if we're friends.) On a handful of occasions, that stuff has turned into full on psychosis. I would NOT want to pass that on to.anyone. So, when I have these pangs of sadness for not having had a kid, I think of these things.

I also think of some of my friends, who are more like family, who had kids together - four of the closest friends I've ever had. One mother is dead from suicide, one is dead from drug bullshit, one father is in prison for some sort of gangster-ass insanity, one father is homeless and broken. I'm not trying to be mean here, especially about the dead ones. They all tried REALLY hard to get their shit together, and came REALLY close. But Mr. Self Destruct won in the end. So, i don't think they should have had kids. Obviously, other people have their kids now, and imagine how much it must fuck with those kids to think of their real parents. (Edit: it is, btw, a miracle that I didn't suffer a similar fate as some of these people, considering the way I used to live.)

Also, even though I'm more stable these days, and don't drink or shoot dope or anything like that, I DID get sick and become disabled. So, now, I'd be having a REALLY hard time supporting a child, because of my own physical illness.

I don't think I was supposed to have kids.

[theimage13]

^^ mostly same.

Partner and I both have mental health issues. She has additional chronic health issues and a pretty poor family history. And to be perfectly honest, neither one of us is even remotely close to "attractive" by conventional standards (and it took me a very, very, very long time to be okay with that on my own end).

Pair ALL of that with the fact that I'm rarely home and we barely have enough money to take care of ourselves as it is, and that child would have an exceptionally difficult life right out of the gate. About the only good thing going for them would be that they're white in America (which admittedly - and sadly - counts for a lot). But beyond that, the deck would be stacked pretty high against them. So thank you, no. No kids for us.

[Substance242]

Could someone please direct me to the scientific work "The world will be just fine" which everyone else seems to have?

I'm not saying something terrible is going to happen, I just don't know. But to bring children in here people must believe that, right? Based on what?

[allegro]

Could someone please direct me to the scientific work "The world will be just fine" which everyone else seems to have?

I'm not saying something terrible is going to happen, I just don't know. But to bring children in here people must believe that, right? Based on what?

Based on the history of the planet?

[eversonpoe]

Could someone please direct me to the scientific work "The world will be just fine" which everyone else seems to have?

I'm not saying something terrible is going to happen, I just don't know. But to bring children in here people must believe that, right? Based on what?

i'm having a kid in november. we found out our third round of IVF worked literally the day after i stopped going to work in march because of the pandemic. literally the worst timing imaginable. i'm fucking TERRIFIED of bringing a child into the world as it currently is (and i was already pretty apprehensive about it before the pandemic started).

[Magnetic]

Could someone please direct me to the scientific work "The world will be just fine" which everyone else seems to have?

I'm not saying something terrible is going to happen, I just don't know. But to bring children in here people must believe that, right? Based on what?

From my understanding, our resources have been tapped out for 10-15 years?
It's easy for me to tap out, as I don't have a parental bone in my body. But I've also held a long term (20 year) belief that it's selfish to bring more children into the world. There are some arguments that every generation should have x number more to keep things going (see Children of men), but....the overload on the world right now would say otherwise.

I can look up actually figures/ studies on Saturday. Work is busy right now.

[allegro]

Earth would thrive without humans. We’re cockroaches.

https://theday.co.uk/stories/a-world-without-humans-could-be-a-new-eden

[mfte]

Earth would thrive without humans. We’re cockroaches.

https://theday.co.uk/stories/a-world-without-humans-could-be-a-new-eden

Speak for yourself lady :p

That reminds of a cool show that aired back in the day. Life After People.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1433058/

[allegro]

Look at all the evidence of this when humans were on lockdown during the Covid pandemic.

The carbon levels actually decreased. Air pollution decreased.

See this: https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-04-22/with-humans-shut-in-by-the-coronavirus-shutdown-nature-sees-an-opportunity