2016 Presidential Election

[allegro]

But you've nailed something here for me Allegro, a really obvious "elephant in the room" moment that didn't even occur to me. The fucking National Enquirer. EVERY fucking headline! "Trump WILL Win!" "We Told You So!" "Hillary is Dying!"

I had no idea Trump and the Enquirer were in bed directly

Yup, totally true (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/10/trumps-alliance-with-the-national-enquirer.html?mid=twitter-share-di#).

[botley]

Fun fact - The Enquirer is the only paper to endorse Trump.

In this post-truth world, who really cares to check.

something I was thinking, since we're talking about papers: Do you think that the sheer number of endorsements that basically all said "you're an idiot if you vote for trump" helped him get some votes? Still looking at post-truth here, anti-intellectualism at work?
I think that, especially given the narrowness of Trump's electoral victory (something like 100,000 fuckhead Trump voters decided it for us all, in just a handful of swing states) especially compared to Clinton's MASSIVE popularity — almost 3 million more votes were cast for her than for Trump, more than for ANY white male Presidential candidate EVER (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38254946) — any grand theory about why the result went the way it did is over-explaining it. The Enquirer and the nutjob right-wing anti-truth demagoguery? Nothing new. "Political correctness gone awry"? Nothing new. Like I said months ago, the chances on this Presidential race were 50/50, because Trump's despicable tendencies moved the meter just slightly enough that they ultimately weren't much of a factor for most people.

What's worrying to me is that now more politicians will just ape Trump's tactics. Like all the idiot Conservative leadership candidates up here in Canada doing it already, Lord help us.

This piece (from a libertarian prof. up here in Canada) (https://niskanencenter.org/blog/defense-liberty-cant-without-identity-politics/) pretty decisively takes down the theory that "political correctness/identity politics took down Clinton and handed this thing to Trump". Aaaalll the fucking pundits crowing "I told you so" in the aftermath are wrong, wrong, wrong. Identity politics is probably one of the last things left that'll potentially save our sorry asses in the coming Year Zero shit-storm. Help a First Nations secession movement, join a Black Lives Matter rally, jam a Gay Pride parade right down the Republicans' ugly suburban hellholes. Get out there and fuck this shit up STARTING NOW.

[cashpiles (closed)]

In the press "conference" after Trump and Kanye met privately, Trump said that they had "talked about life." I think Kanye may have threatened to have Trump killed if he makes life worse for black people and/or doesn't clean up policing.

[Dra508]

Separately, It's funny because the conspiracy theorists are going nuts over the whole thing. They think it's setting the stage for Obama to stay in power. loller skates!

Trevor Noah interviewed Obama the other day. That dude is so ready for a va-ca-tion. That office changes a person.

[allegro]

Unless the electors do not confirm Trump.

Alexander Hamilton may have agreed: http://www.salon.com/2016/12/11/alexander-hamilton-explains-the-electoral-college-a-way-of-opposing-cabal-intrigue-and-corruption/

[allegro]

In the press "conference" after Trump and Kanye met privately, Trump said that they had "talked about life." I think Kanye may have threatened to have Trump killed if he makes life worse for black people and/or doesn't clean up policing.

Kanye West has professed his love for Walt Disney, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, and a whole host of other innovators he considers business heroes. He has indicated that he thinks Trump using social media as his primary form of advertising and communication during the election was "the future." It is more likely that Kanye wanted to get Trump to know that he admires that. Then maybe he asked to borrow some money. <--sarcasm

As DigitalChaos already linked, Kanye is not the only one to see Trump as "an innovator." So does Bill Gates (https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-john-f-kennedy-jfk-bill-gates-us-president-elect-microsoft-a7474491.html%3Famp). (Of course, keep in mind that both West and Gates probably WANT SOMETHING from Trump at this point.)

[Mantra]

I'm trying to imagine what a conversation between Trump and Kanye would be like. It's gotta be completely fucking insane, right?

I fucking love the part in the press video when they ask Kanye if he's still planning to run in 2020 and Trump can't hold himself back from laughing.

[allegro]

there really is very little in the way of reasonable evidence connecting Trump in any way

well, there was this (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/us/politics/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html?_r=0).

According to this article (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/why-cia-thinks-russia-wanted-trump-win-n695131), "the CIA's assessment that the Russians favored Trump was not based on any single piece of new intelligence, officials briefed on the matter told NBC News. Instead, it was the result of more stringent analysis of a growing body of circumstantial evidence more detailed than anything the public has seen. Human sources, communications intercepts and other intelligence have allowed analysts to piece together the identities of some of the players, and the steps they took to hurt Clinton's candidacy while boosting Trump's, officials said. The CIA also noted that while Russian hackers gathered information on Republicans, they didn't release any of it, the way they did with Democratic emails leaked to WikiLeaks. The Republican National Committee denies its systems were hacked, but the emails of individual Republicans were collected — something NBC News reported in October. The FBI believes the Russians didn't find anything explosive in the Republican material they obtained, the official said, although it's not clear whether any U.S. agency knows the full extent of what data Russian hackers were able to steal. The CIA also tracked a campaign of anti-Clinton news stories amplified by social media, some of which originated with Russian state media outlets, officials told NBC News."

"The case that the Russian campaign was explicitly intended to elect Trump is not something the U.S. could prove in court, officials say, which in part explains why FBI briefers have been more reluctant to embrace that position in secret briefings to Congress than have intelligence officials. Other intelligence agencies have not endorsed the CIA view, but no entity is known to oppose it.

However, the question of motive — why the Russians allegedly meddled in the election — is entirely separate from the more basic question of whether the U.S. has strong evidence that the Russian government sponsored the covert campaign.

On that score, every intelligence agency in the government agrees: The Russians did it."

Nobody is saying that anyone can directly connect Trump; I don't know of anyone who is even attempting to point a finger directly at Trump. The finger is being pointed at Russia, for wanting to put a Russia-Friendly candidate in the White House, vs somebody like Hillary Clinton (http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/15/opinions/putin-clinton-hate-affair-ghitis/).

It's not really about either Trump or Clinton; it's about Russia, and who will benefit Russia.

And it's not like this country hasn't done this, too, btw.

[Harry Seaward]

there really is very little in the way of reasonable evidence connecting Trump in any way... even that Russia favored him. At best, Russia just wanted to hit Hillary for a multitude of possible reasons. The public's insistence on believing false dichotomy doesn't magically connect Trump.

Well the CIA and a multitude of other intelligence agencies say that the Russian government actively influenced the US Presidential Election with the sole intent of favoring Donald Trump in the race. This much is known.

You say there's nothing connecting Trump to anything.

I'm not sure who to believe more.

[Mantra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that most people are claiming Trump himself was directly collaborating with Russia. Isn't the claim simply that Russia acted independently, trying to discreetly influence the election without anyone in the US (including the Trump campaign itself) ever realizing that they played a part? Isn't that the most prevalent theory?

[allegro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that most people are claiming Trump himself was directly collaborating with Russia. Isn't the claim simply that Russia acted independently, trying to discreetly influence the election without anyone in the US (including the Trump campaign itself) ever realizing that they played a part? Isn't that the most prevalent theory?
Pretty much, yeah.

[allegro]

I'm trying to imagine what a conversation between Trump and Kanye would be like. It's gotta be completely fucking insane, right?

I fucking love the part in the press video when they ask Kanye if he's still planning to run in 2020 and Trump can't hold himself back from laughing.

I gotta give it up to Trump, though, for patting Kanye on the back (after a soul-brother handshake) and telling him "so long, you take care of yourself, alright? I'll see you soon."

[allegro]

allegro & Harry Seaward - You need to understand the difference between intelligence and evidence. Intel (what the CIA operates in) is "best guess based on what we can see." Intel is "Iraq probably has WMD's" even though they didn't. Evidence (what the FBI operates in) is about factually provable things that would hold up in court. There is a reason the CIA and the FBI have two very different views. Why would you want to do something like ALTER AN ENTIRE ELECTION over something that doesn't have enough evidence to hold up in a court of law?

Until we see the supposed circumstantial evidence that the public hasn't seen, there isn't much more to be said other than: circumstantial evidence still doesn't hold up in court. I have been involved in investigating a hacker who appeared to come from Russia. He had an attack server on a Russian host, similar to the DNC hack. He also had other attributes that were clearly Russian. But then access to the attack server was gained and, thanks to shitty security of the hacker, we saw he was operating in a completely different country. Meanwhile, with the DNC Hack, we see stories about how nobody even contacted the host where the attack server was located (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/28/world/europe/russia-hacker-vladimir-fomenko-king-servers.html). This shit has been sloppy.

Attribution is hard, especially if you want enough info to reliably act in ways that have very large impacts.

Mantra - I have seen a lot of people try and push the idea that Trump had intentional involvement. Why else would intel reports be of value to the electors? Why would electors change who the vote for just cause another country happens to like that candidate and want them to win? (which is still unproven)

Well, but, YOU need to remember the difference between the FBI and the CIA.

The FBI is a domestic LAW ENFORCEMENT agency and reports to the Attorney General and the National Director of Intelligence and handles federal law and national security.

The CIA is a FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE agency and reports only to the National Director of Intelligence and primarily provides intelligence to the President and his cabinet.

Per Wikipedia:

Today [the CIA's] primary purpose is to collect, analyze, evaluate, and disseminate foreign intelligence, and to perform covert actions.

According to its fiscal 2013 budget, the CIA has five priorities:

Counterterrorism, the top priority, given the ongoing Global War on Terror.
Nonproliferation of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction, with North Korea described as perhaps the most difficult target.
Warning/informing American leaders of important overseas events, with Pakistan described as an "intractable target".
Counterintelligence, with China, Russia, Iran, Cuba, and Israel described as "priority" targets.
Cyber intelligence.

The CIA doesn't care about what "holds up in Court" as it has no law enforcement function.

I have been "involved" with the FBI looking for various people online since the friggin' 80s. Back then, they were looking for foreign dissidents, software thieves, etc. And the FBI was about as dumb as a box of rocks; the EVIDENCE was right there in the form of UNIX headers, but duhhhhhhhhhh. But, yes, the FBI is gonna look for "evidence." The CIA? Circumstantial is okay, they're only reporting on the data they find and they provide an analysis of their findings, and that's it.

[allegro]

That's my point. Why would you do something as dramatic as alter an entire election based on the best guess Intel such an organization provides?
Who is going to alter an election?

Russia or the CIA?

Russia used bad publicity to try to influence an election to get the candidate that's good for them, per the CIA's collected evidence and their report (and, like, DUH).

The CIA can't DO anything about that other than report the circumstantial evidence they found to their supervisors. Period. They MAY be able to forward enough actual evidence to go after the ACTUAL hackers (they think they know who they are, reportedly) for HACKING but not for anything else. The CIA has ZERO law enforcement powers. The CIA's job is to investigate and report.

Remember, too, though, that criminal trials don't NEED "evidence;" they need means, motive and opportunity. CIVIL trials need evidence.

Criminals have been executed on circumstantial evidence. Criminals are currently spending life in prison on circumstantial evidence.

[allegro]

We've been talking about things like the Electoral College changing their votes based on an Intel report...

Nooooo, YOU talked about that.

I think that's HILARIOUS.

AIN'T HAPPENING.

Sure, Alexander Hamilton may have wanted the Electoral College to prevent foreign forces from controlling or influencing our elections, but that was before computers and hacking.

Now, since the Republicans have gamed the system by gutting the Voters Rights Act, and now a foreign country has gamed the system, the only way to prevent that is to get rid of the Electoral College.

It used to be a good idea.

Now it's not.

Popular Vote.

[allegro]

I dunno, there would have to be a HUGE smoking gun for the EC to do that. Go ahead and give the intel to the EC but that's not enough of a smoking gun to show that it affected the votes, like ballot-box hacking or something like THAT (which of course didn't happen).

This is kind of like the Citizens United case: If Unions and Corporations want to roll the dice and sink a shitload of money into PACs, then whatever; that does not necessarily convert into absolute votes, it does not "buy" votes, and we have seen plenty of direct evidence of that. Corp + Money to Candidates = Votes is faulty logic. This is the same thing. Russians + hacking + releasing bad shit about the other candidate = absolute win guaranteed for Russia's fave candidate wasn't guaranteed. It could have backfired on them. Bigtime.

Podesta is focusing on the wrong topic. If he was smart, he'd say "fuck the EC, we should GET RID OF IT." Instead, he wants the EC to flip and elect his candidate. Because he's a myopic dumbass.

You say "of course I'm talking about [the EC changing their vote to Trump] as if this is now the sole topic of discussion, but in the below post it seemed to be a throwaway side comment, not a request for the discussion to focus solely on that topic:


Unless the electors do not confirm Trump. Lots of the noise about Russia also seems to be a last ditch attempt at getting the electoral college to change the outcome. Even Podesta came out to say that he supports giving ODNI briefings to the electors.

Separately, It's funny because the conspiracy theorists are oing nuts over the whole thing. They think it's setting the stage for Obama to stay in power.

I ignored it because (a) how the fuck could Obama possible stay in power (he can't) and (b) the FBI has already said it doesn't think Russia has done enough to pursue them for anything (they're ones with law enforcement powers). Discussing conspiracy theorists and pathetic morons like Podesta? Okay, I'm checking out. Wankfests ain't my thang.

[Harry Seaward]

U.S. intelligence officials now believe with "a high level of confidence" that Russian President Vladimir Putin became personally involved in the covert Russian campaign to interfere in the U.S. presidential election, senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.

Two senior officials with direct access to the information say new intelligence shows that Putin personally directed how hacked material from Democrats was leaked and otherwise used. The intelligence came from diplomatic sources and spies working for U.S. allies, the officials said.

Putin's objectives were multifaceted, a high-level intelligence source told NBC News. What began as a "vendetta" against Hillary Clinton morphed into an effort to show corruption in American politics and to "split off key American allies by creating the image that [other countries] couldn't depend on the U.S. to be a credible global leader anymore," the official said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-officials-putin-personally-involved-u-s-election-hack-n696146

[Exocet]

Erm.....

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&client=tablet-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=boris+yelstin+time+magazine+1996&gfe_rd=cr&ei=Dg5SWLSjAcyT8Qfnyo2oAg#gfe_rd=cr&imgrc=xu0m3HAwAR2QHM%3A (https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&client=tablet-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=boris+yelstin+time+magazine+1996&gfe_rd=cr&ei=Dg5SWLSjAcyT8Qfnyo2oAg#gfe_rd=cr&imgrc=xu0m3HAwAR2QHM%3A)

[aggroculture]

NeverTrump Republicans failed to deliver in the election...maybe they were a fantasy all along. In any case, they're not going to stop Trump now.
It's a bit pathetic to see Democrats looking up to Mitch McConnell and John McCain as if they are some kind of allies now. Fuck that crap, grow a spine and fight back.

[cashpiles (closed)]

U.S. intelligence officials now believe with "a high level of confidence" that Russian President Vladimir Putin became personally involved in the covert Russian campaign to interfere in the U.S. presidential election, senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.

Two senior officials with direct access to the information say new intelligence shows that Putin personally directed how hacked material from Democrats was leaked and otherwise used. The intelligence came from diplomatic sources and spies working for U.S. allies, the officials said.

Putin's objectives were multifaceted, a high-level intelligence source told NBC News. What began as a "vendetta" against Hillary Clinton morphed into an effort to show corruption in American politics and to "split off key American allies by creating the image that [other countries] couldn't depend on the U.S. to be a credible global leader anymore," the official said.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-officials-putin-personally-involved-u-s-election-hack-n696146

Can you blame Russia for trying to make its situation better for itself?

[Khrz]

Can you blame Russia for trying to make its situation better for itself?

Covertly interfering with another sovereign nation's politics is still considered a dick move.
If I bang your girlfriend behind your back, can you blame me for trying to make the situation better for myself?
It's kinda like that. Sovereign nations aren't big on polyamory.

[Mantra]

DigitalChaos ...Hmm, I guess I wasn't aware that a lot of people were pushing things from that angle. I'm not signed up on any lists like that and haven't really seen stuff like that on facebook. But I see your point.

I don't know, I hate Trump just as much as any other rational person, and I do find it really unsettling to think of Russia or anyone trying to influence our elections, but still...I feel like it's kind of a stretch to say that Trump should be stopped from entering office because Russia was influencing things. It's a pretty major deal to do something like that. I feel like people would need to have overwhelming evidence of blatant wrongdoing on Trump's part before pulling the trigger on that.

That said, I really gotta hand it to whoever arranged those photos of Trump and Putin on that Avaaz email, the one with Putin raising his glass. lol

[allegro]

To further show just how much the EC flip is being focused on... I've been getting multiple emails every day from DCCC/PCCC/Avaaz/BoldProgressives/MoveOn/etc for the last several days. It's basically every campaign list that was helping Hillary.
They are all pushing the Electoral College flip extremely hard.

Now *I* see all of this as something different: A GIANT DONATION FUNDS OPPORTUNITY

"THE RUSSIANS ARE CONTROLLING THE ELECTION! SIGN THIS PETITION TO GET THE EC TO CHANGE THEIR VOTE!" (And give us money so we can continue to pursue things on your behalf and we are gonna send you various petitions 40 times per week asking you for money).

The ACLU and Amnesty International is doing this to me, too. Although, they have not sent me ANY of these types of emails (related to the EC).

[allegro]

NeverTrump Republicans failed to deliver in the election...maybe they were a fantasy all along. In any case, they're not going to stop Trump now.
It's a bit pathetic to see Democrats looking up to Mitch McConnell and John McCain as if they are some kind of allies now. Fuck that crap, grow a spine and fight back.
McCain IS an ally when it comes to Trump's view on Russia. Sorry, but I don't see every single Republican as "The Mortal Enemy." That is what got us into this mess, and not having allies against Trump on the Republican (majority) side is just gonna make things WORSE. The Republicans have a supermajority right now. If they wanted, they could rubber stamp every fucking thing Trump wants. In some areas, they can't even filibuster, anymore. The only balance will come from Republicans against Trump.

Most of the #NeverTrump people were BERNIE fans, or they voted for Johnson or didn't vote. There was no way they could stop that locomotive.

This whole "threat of Russian rule" thing is ridiculous, though. I think it's just as ridiculous as when JFK ran and people thought the Pope would be running the country. My dentist's assistant is from Poland and she said she thought that the Trump - Putin relationship was good. I was shocked. Polish people typically HATE Russians (long history). She said, "keep your friends close but your enemies closer."

[cashpiles (closed)]

Covertly interfering with another sovereign nation's politics is still considered a dick move.
If I bang your girlfriend behind your back, can you blame me for trying to make the situation better for myself?
It's kinda like that. Sovereign nations aren't big on polyamory.

Then USA shouldn't have fucked with Russia with sanctions... How's that for fucking with other countries? And who sanctions the USA when they fuck over third world nations with puppet leaders and unfair corporate deals?

The USA might not be big on polyamory, but it sure does like to take advantage of vulnerable nations. Imagine one of those nations was your sister.

[allegro]

Then USA shouldn't have fucked with Russia with sanctions... How's that for fucking with other countries? And who sanctions the USA when they fuck over third world nations with puppet leaders and unfair corporate deals?

The USA might not be big on polyamory, but it sure does like to take advantage of vulnerable nations. Imagine one of those nations was your sister.
In this case, Russia was the rapist who fucked a passenger plane by shooting it down (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/09/28/europe/mh17-buk-russia/index.html) (oops) and moved the border in the Ukraine to include Crimea to be a part of Russia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation), and it continues to bomb innocent civilians and schools and hospitals in Aleppo.

Russia is free to do business with whichever other country it wants. But we are its biggest buyers. It knew that when it did the above shit, and our citizens put a LOT of political pressure on leaders when it comes to Russia and certain other countries to push for sanctions.

[hellospaceboy]

My dentist's assistant is from Poland and she said she thought that the Trump - Putin relationship was good. I was shocked. Polish people typically HATE Russians (long history). She said, "keep your friends close but your enemies closer."

Well, in Poland (just like in Hungary, so that's why I know a bit about it) there is a far right, nationalistic, Russia-friendly government (and public sentiment) in place. To them, the European Union is the (cultural) enemy, and Russia is a friend. It's the same anti-globalisation crap that led to Brexit and Trump...

[allegro]

Well, in Poland (just like in Hungary, so that's why I know a bit about it) there is a far right, nationalistic, Russia-friendly government (and public sentiment) in place. To them, the European Union is the (cultural) enemy, and Russia is a friend. It's the same anti-globalisation crap that led to Brexit and Trump...

The weird thing is that Eva, the dental assistant, came here from Communist USSR Poland, and in Chicago I know many Poles who came here from that same situation who hate Communism because they lived in Communism and under Soviet rule, and they were required to speak Russian in school, etc., and here is somebody from that situation who is embracing a Russian from that time period. And the Russians who voted him in did the same thing, like they like the "old days." Or something.

[Khrz]

That's what made Putin appealing at first in Russia, a man from the old guard who understood and would act against the corruption and misery created by capitalism, bring back some sort of communist flair with him and some of Russia's old glory...

[allegro]

Weird. This can only happen in certain states, though (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector).

So, they could pick somebody like Kasich.

[sick among the pure]

Weird. This can only happen in certain states, though (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector).

So, they could pick somebody like Kasich.

From what I understood, in states where it's not "legal", they are still able to vote against their state, but face fines and possible jail time for doing so. So, they can do it, they'll just get in deep shit after they've done it.
Not to say I believe enough people in said states will do it, just that they technically still can do it. Just, with consequences.

[Baphomette]

Trump lawyer David Friedman tapped for Israel ambassadorship (http://In the announcement of his appointment, Friedman also upended another U.S. tenet, saying he looked forward to being able to &quot;strengthen the unbreakable bond&quot; between the United States and Israel &quot;from the U.S. Embassy in Israel’s eternal capital, Jerusalem.”).


In the announcement of his appointment, Friedman also upended another U.S. tenet, saying he looked forward to being able to "strengthen the unbreakable bond" between the United States and Israel "from the U.S. Embassy in Israel’s eternal capital, Jerusalem."

[allegro]

From what I understood, in states where it's not "legal", they are still able to vote against their state, but face fines and possible jail time for doing so. So, they can do it, they'll just get in deep shit after they've done it.
Not to say I believe enough people in said states will do it, just that they technically still can do it. Just, with consequences.

According to the link in my post, Michigan and Minnesota invalidate the faithless elector votes. I believe Michigan is one of the Swing States needed.

[allegro]

In the announcement of his appointment, Friedman also upended another U.S. tenet, saying he looked forward to being able to "strengthen the unbreakable bond" between the United States and Israel "from the U.S. Embassy in Israel’s eternal capital, Jerusalem.”

Oy vey

....

[Harry Seaward]

What a strange reality we live in.

In three days, if 38 people were to make a different decision than the one they're expected to make, the fate of the world would be changed in a drastically unimaginable way. The spending of trillions of dollars and the fate of likely billions of lives rest squarely in the hands of 38 people. Unimaginable power. 38 people hold the completely legal, constitutional power to profoundly change the course of human history forever. And these aren't global elites - politicians, bankers, billionaires, etc. Some of them may be vaguely politically connected, but many of them are ordinary, unnoteworthy people. People off the street. And these people hold more power than most of those elites ever will. More power than most Presidents or dictators have ever held.

Democracy, what a laugh.

[Baphomette]

What a strange reality we live in.

In three days, if 38 people were to make a different decision than the one they're expected to make, the fate of the world would be changed in a drastically unimaginable way. The spending of trillions of dollars and the fate of likely billions of lives rest squarely in the hands of 38 people. Unimaginable power. 38 people hold the completely legal, constitutional power to profoundly change the course of human history forever. And these aren't global elites - politicians, bankers, billionaires, etc. Some of them may be vaguely politically connected, but many of them are ordinary, unnoteworthy people. People off the street. And these people hold more power than most of those elites ever will. More power than most Presidents or dictators have ever held.

Democracy, what a laugh.

This will not be one of those 38 people:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/missdv8/15355814_10210109266100844_9100777687847450415_n_z ps5bvih8kt.jpg

[elevenism]

Mark my words: an EC flip will be the end of this country as we know it.

[Harry Seaward]

Why?



.

[Harry Seaward]

Actually, let me expand on that.


Mark my words: an EC flip will be the end of this country as we know it.

Why do you think that?

Like I briefly mentioned in my post, one of the primary Constitutional reasons for the Electoral College existing is to steer America right in the case that a person who is clearly corrupt, controlled by a foreign nation, or an insane fascist dictatorial demagogue somehow wins the Presidential election. They exist to sweep up the mess when America makes an absolute fuck up. They are the final "do-over" button.

The fact that Donald Trump has lost the popular vote by a great margin than any other President in US history (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/donald-trump-lost-popular-vote-hillary-clinton-us-election-president-history-a7470116.html) is just the cherry on top that ideally would push the electors to do the right thing and put the fate of America and the world before their party lines and pride. There could not be a more glaring example of a time in which the EC needs to exercise this legal right for the first time. Honestly even taking into consideration all of the outrage I've seen on the internet, television, and in person over the past month, I still honestly think people are underestimating the damage Donald Trump will do to this country. This is a horrifying manchild who is nauseatingly dangerous in his blatant, willful, and braggadocious proud stupidity.

Without even taking into consideration policy, think of the many, many precedents Trump has already set. It's now acceptable for a President to act the way he does. He has set the level of decorum the President is now expected to embody. It's now acceptable for a Presidential candidate to skirt just about every single rule put in place, every rule that's been followed for centuries. There's no longer any need to disclose tax forms that would very likely reveal massive conflicts of interest. Hell, it's now acceptable for a President to not only ignore all of his clear and obvious conflicts of interest, it's okay for a President to actively invite them in and participate in them. It's apparently okay for the President to invite his children, who are running his business, to live in the White House and be Presidential associates and confidants. It's okay to invite the children who run his business into official government business, such as phone calls and meetings with foreign heads of state.

It's now perfectly okay for a President to not only ignore security briefings, but brag about how he doesn't need them because of how fucking smart he is. The fucking policy he's going to implement in his reign is going to be crippling enough, but I think people are grossly underestimating the long-lasting damage he will cause due to the precedents he's been setting for over the past year and will continue to set throughout his reign.

So. With that being said, it's not like 38 electors changing their votes would equate to a mutiny or armed revolution. It would be well within legal boundaries. It would simply be an activation of one of the many safeguards the Founding Fathers put in place to prevent America from destroying itself. And according to the numbers, far more Americans would welcome it than not.

[Sallos]

a person who is clearly corrupt, controlled by a foreign nation, or an insane fascist dictatorial demagogue

dude, you just described hillary clinton.

[Harry Seaward]

dude, you just described hillary clinton.

Honestly, if you believe Hillary Clinton is remotely comparable in any one of those regards, you're a child who doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

[Sallos]

Hillary clinton, funded by Saudi Arabia and owned by George Soros, with a foundation that up until the election day was receiving numerous donations from foreign interests, which ceased after the results, one can wonder why.
The best you got on Donal Trump is a speculation that Russia might be involved in leaking DNC emails that favored him. Got it.

[Khrz]

Honestly no matter your allegiance, I don't see that as a criticism towards Trump, more like a worrying trend if foreign involvement is confirmed.
As I said to cashpiles, no one wants to learn their political process has been compromised by a foreign power, whether it be by Russia, China or the USA.
When the public learned that the NSA was monitoring the communications of various nations it made a huge impact, and subsequent meddling was only merely implied. Here you'd have a country getting their hands dirty fucking up the communication and information surrounding the elections of a fucking superpower.
Left or right, it's worrisome nonetheless.

[elevenism]

Actually, let me expand on that.
Why do you think that?


Dude, i HATE donald trump and don't doubt that he will greatly damage the country.
But an EC flip, i think, would cause civil unrest and violence on an unimaginable scale.
The nation is divided right down the middle. It's a fucking powderkeg as it is.
Trump was elected using xenophobic, hateful rhetoric to appeal to angry people.
Imagine what those people will do if someone else is installed.

So as much as i fear a Trump presidency, i fear it a LITTLE less than an EC flip.

[Mantra]

owned by George Soros

So...Do you also suspect that the Bilderberg group and the Rothschild family are the secret puppet masters of the world? What are your feelings on the illuminati?

[allegate]

Sure, why not. Makes as much as sense as anything else that's happened this year. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[Sallos]

So...Do you also suspect that the Bilderberg group and the Rothschild family are the secret puppet masters of the world? What are your feelings on the illuminati?
You forgot to ask about the jews...

but regarding Bilderberg i'd say its safe to call them masters of the world, what else would you call the leaders of the most powerful countries and corporations? But the real problem is the fact that they meet in privacy. It doesn't really sit well, in a democratic society, like the western one, where we pride for the scrutiny we give our elected officials and their decision making. Also people on the left don't really have a favorable opinion of them either, and accuse them of trying to impose a capitalist domination on the world, which, capitalism being the best system doesn't really need a group to impose it, nature will take care of it.

[Mantra]

You forgot to ask about the jews...

but regarding Bilderberg i'd say its safe to call them masters of the world, what else would you call the leaders of the most powerful countries and corporations? But the real problem is the fact that they meet in privacy. It doesn't really sit well, in a democratic society, like the western one, where we pride for the scrutiny we give our elected officials and their decision making. Also people on the left don't really have a favorable opinion of them either, and accuse them of trying to impose a capitalist domination on the world, which, capitalism being the best system doesn't really need a group to impose it, nature will take care of it.

Alright, good to know.

So can you explain to me WHY you've bought into this whole "George Soros is the sinister man behind the curtain" theory? When did you start believing in this? Did you read some article or watch a video or something? What made you start thinking this way?

[Dra508]

The nation is divided right down the middle. It's a fucking powderkeg as it is.
Trump was elected using xenophobic, hateful rhetoric to appeal to angry people.
Imagine what those people will do if someone else is installed.

.

Imagine what they'll do when Trump doesn't deliver on their expectations?

Wizard of fucking Oz.

[WorzelG]

Hillary clinton, funded by Saudi Arabia and owned by George Soros, with a foundation that up until the election day was receiving numerous donations from foreign interests, which ceased after the results, one can wonder why.
The best you got on Donal Trump is a speculation that Russia might be involved in leaking DNC emails that favored him. Got it.

Any country who uses oil is beholden to Saudi Arabia. Are you American and use a car? A country that big with pockets of people stuck in nowhere can't afford to piss off Saudi Arabia

[Sallos]

Alright, good to know.

So can you explain to me WHY you've bought into this whole "George Soros is the sinister man behind the curtain" theory? When did you start believing in this? Did you read some article or watch a video or something? What made you start thinking this way?

George Soros has a unique relationship with Hillary Clinton, other than the millions he wasted on her campaign he also praised how she was very accessible, unlike Obama whom he later regretted supporting during the primaries. Reading his email to Hillary where he "suggests" a course of action for a certain problem in Albania, going as far as to name people that should be appointed to solve the issue shows how much of an influence he has.
That coupled with the his despicable globalist agenda, and saying that the happiest time in his life was when he worked for the nazis in Hungary make him indeed sinister.

[elevenism]

Imagine what they'll do when Trump doesn't deliver on their expectations?

Wizard of fucking Oz.

True, true.
It will also be pretty fucked up if he DOES deliver on a lot of things.
These are scary fucking times. :/

[Sallos]

Any country who uses oil is beholden to Saudi Arabia. Are you American and use a car? A country that big with pockets of people stuck in nowhere can't afford to piss off Saudi Arabia

That's where Shale oil comes in i guess, wouldn't be surprised if Hillary was against it, maybe being funded by Saudi Arabia has something to do with it? who knows? But are you suggesting that Hillary Clinton, or any other politician has no way of refusing Saudi Arabian money because they control the oil flow? Im not sure exactly what you mean with that response.

[WorzelG]

That's where Shale oil comes in i guess, wouldn't be surprised if Hillary was against it, maybe being funded by Saudi Arabia has something to do with it? who knows? But are you suggesting that Hillary Clinton, or any other politician has no way of refusing Saudi Arabian money because they control the oil flow? Im not sure exactly what you mean with that response.

So which US presidents refused Saudi money ? Since you think Hillary is above and beyond everyone else in terms of pure evil?

[Sallos]

So which US presidents refused Saudi money ? Since you think Hillary is above and beyond everyone else in terms of pure evil?


I dont think Trump got any money from the saudis, doesn't mean he refused but, i'd say its a good start.
And let's be clear, im just amazed at all this talk about how Trump cannot be elected president because he's "controlled by a foreign nation" when his opponent got funded by foreign interests. And there's yet any evidence to prove russians did hack, and even if there was that wouldn't prove anything.

[Harry Seaward]

Dude, i HATE donald trump and don't doubt that he will greatly damage the country.
But an EC flip, i think, would cause civil unrest and violence on an unimaginable scale.
The nation is divided right down the middle. It's a fucking powderkeg as it is.
Trump was elected using xenophobic, hateful rhetoric to appeal to angry people.
Imagine what those people will do if someone else is installed.

So as much as i fear a Trump presidency, i fear it a LITTLE less than an EC flip.

It does seem like the country is split right down the middle, but I think the numbers show that there are far fewer Trump supporters than it feels like. Check out his current approval rating, I believe it's one of the lowest in decades. Another recent (4 days ago) poll found that less than 1/3 of Americans think Donald Trump is qualified to serve as President. Ouch. Also take into consideration that a yuge amount of support for him on the internet has been from Russian puppet accounts.

39% of Americans voted in the 2016 presidential election. Of those 39%, 48%* voted for Donald Trump. So that works out to 19% of Americans who voted for Trump. I think it's fair to say there would be a lot less outrage than one might think.

So I think that 38 electors flipping their votes would go over relatively issue free. The GOP politicians and talking heads would definitely have a complete nuclear meltdown in the media, but I don't think it would escalate any further than the level of protests we're currently seeing from the left about Trump's win. The recipe for revolution just isn't there when you consider both the fact that basically everybody seems to strongly, strongly dislike him at best and the fact that the electors would be doing nothing more than exercising their legal rights.


* 62,958,481 Trump vs. 65,818,412 Clinton

[WorzelG]

I dont think Trump got any money from the saudis, doesn't mean he refused but, i'd say its a good start.
And let's be clear, im just amazed at all this talk about how Trump cannot be elected president because he's "controlled by a foreign nation" when his opponent got funded by foreign interests. And there's yet any evidence to prove russians did hack, and even if there was that wouldn't prove anything.
Trump isn't a politician yet.

Michael Moore talked about Bush family links in a film
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud

Personally I think there would be chaos in the US without oil, people are dependent on cars because it is so big and public transport is not very well developed

[Harry Seaward]

And there's yet any evidence to prove russians did hack, and even if there was that wouldn't prove anything.

There actually is evidence that Putin himself signed off on the hacks with the intent of installing Donald Trump into the White House. It may have started out as an attempt to simply disrupt the election and cause chaos, but eventually it escalated to specifically trying to prop Trump up and specifically harm his opponent. This much is known. These are the facts, there is no ambiguity or opinion involved here.

Just because you specifically don't have the evidence doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. Just because the United States intelligence agencies aren't spilling all of their details of national security into the public doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And just because the source was reported to the public as an anonymous one doesn't mean nobody knows who the source is.

If you honestly think the CIA and all the other top US intelligence agencies, the President, and top Congressional leadership are all making this accusations without being absolutely 100% certain, you truly do not understand how the US government or politics work. This is not the sort of thing they would be encouraging if it wasn't undeniably certain. This is dangerous fucking shit and if you truly believe the evidence hasn't been exhaustively vetted, then you're honestly just paranoid beyond acceptable levels.

News you disagree with isn't fake news. Facts that portray Donald Trump in a negative light aren't just 'wrong' inherently.

[Sallos]

Trump isn't a politician yet.

Michael Moore talked about Bush family links in a film
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bush,_House_of_Saud

Personally I think there would be chaos in the US without oil, people are dependent on cars because it is so big and public transport is not very well developed

Thank god for shale oil then, soon the US will be able to tell Saudis to shove it. Also i don't see how a presidential candidate not getting money from Saudi Arabia would mean exactly that the US would go without oil, seeing how most the oil you get is from Mexico and Canada.

[elevenism]

39% of Americans voted in the 2016 presidential election. Of those 39%, 48%* voted for Donald Trump. So that works out to 19% of Americans who voted for Trump. I think it's fair to say there would be a lot less outrage than one might think.

So I think that 38 electors flipping their votes would go over relatively issue free.

i hope you're right, in case this actually happens.
I tend to expect chaos.

edit: also, yuge. YUGE! i just caught that and it made me laff like a fucking loon. Thanks. I needed that :P

[Sallos]

There actually is evidence that Putin himself signed off on the hacks with the intent of installing Donald Trump into the White House. It may have started out as an attempt to simply disrupt the election and cause chaos, but eventually it escalated to specifically trying to prop Trump up and specifically harm his opponent. This much is known. These are the facts, there is no ambiguity or opinion involved here.

What evidence is there exactly, besides people saying he did it, which, is not evidence at all.

[SchwarzerAbt]

I think one problem is that the election process in the US is so messy and over the top. If they decide not to make Trump, will Clinton be president? Or Pence? or could the vote be repeated?

With these primaries, voting registration and all that stuff there are millions and millions blown into one election and it becomes more or less impossible for the parties to just nominate other candidates and have the people vote again in a reasonable amount of time. Which would probably be the best thing!

[Harry Seaward]

What evidence is there exactly, besides people saying he did it, which, is not evidence at all.

People who have the evidence:
- All of the top US intelligence agencies
- The President
- Top Congressional bipartisan leadership
- Everybody else important enough that they need the evidence right now

People who don't have the evidence:
- You

Surely this means there is no evidence.

[Mantra]

George Soros has a unique relationship with Hillary Clinton, other than the millions he wasted on her campaign he also praised how she was very accessible, unlike Obama whom he later regretted supporting during the primaries. Reading his email to Hillary where he "suggests" a course of action for a certain problem in Albania, going as far as to name people that should be appointed to solve the issue shows how much of an influence he has.

Is this the email you are referring to? https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/28972

Because I'm not seeing what's so diabolical about this. It's kind of strange that, in your post, you typed "suggests" with scare quotes, as if he's not really giving his suggestion at all, but rather issuing some kind of command because, naturally, he's the supreme overlord. That's a really bizarre way to read that email. He wrote to her because he was concerned about the escalating violence and instability in Albania. He gave his take on things and said what he believed would help the situation. What exactly is the problem here?

I'm well aware that Soros is a wealthy liberal who financially supports a variety of progressive causes. The world is filled with rich people who spend their money supporting the political causes that they believe in, both left wing and right wing (see also: the Koch brothers). What I don't understand is why people on the right have become so irrationally obsessed with this particular man, as if he's Satan incarnate.



That coupled with the his despicable globalist agenda, and saying that the happiest time in his life was when he worked for the nazis in Hungary make him indeed sinister.

Really, he said this? He actually said: "The happiest time in my life was when I worked for the Nazis in Hungary" ? Do you have a reliable source for this quote? Because I just looked it up right now and all I could find were a handful of sketchy conspiracy theory websites that never actually explain where the quote supposedly originates from.

[Sallos]

People who have the evidence:
- All of the top US intelligence agencies
- The President
- Top Congressional bipartisan leadership
- Everybody else important enough that they need the evidence right now

People who don't have the evidence:
- You

Surely this means there is no evidence.

I'll wait until the people who have this evidence present it so it can be publicly reviewed. And least we forget there was also evidence of WMD in Iraq.

[allegate]

Is this the email you are referring to? https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/28972

Because I'm not seeing what's so diabolical about this. It's kind of strange that, in your post, you typed "suggests" with scare quotes, as if he's not really giving his suggestion at all, but rather issuing some kind of command because, naturally, he's the supreme overlord. That's a really bizarre way to read that email. He wrote to her because he was concerned about the escalating violence and instability in Albania. He gave his take on things and said what he believed would help the situation. What exactly is the problem here?

I'm well aware that Soros is a wealthy liberal who financially supports a variety of progressive causes. The world is filled with rich people who spend their money supporting the political causes that they believe in, both left wing and right wing (see also: the Koch brothers). What I don't understand is why people on the right have become so irrationally obsessed with this particular man, as if he's Satan incarnate.



Really, he said this? He actually said: "The happiest time in my life was when I worked for the Nazis in Hungary" ? Do you have a reliable source for this quote? Because I just looked it up right now and all I could find were a handful of sketchy conspiracy theory websites that never actually explain where the quote supposedly originates from.

You're looking too deep here: He already said he's a conspiracy theorist.

[Sallos]

Is this the email you are referring to? https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/28972

Because I'm not seeing what's so diabolical about this. It's kind of strange that, in your post, you typed "suggests" with scare quotes, as if he's not really giving his suggestion at all, but rather issuing some kind of command because, naturally, he's the supreme overlord. That's a really bizarre way to read that email. He wrote to her because he was concerned about the escalating violence and instability in Albania. He gave his take on things and said what he believed would help the situation. What exactly is the problem here?

I'm well aware that Soros is a wealthy liberal who financially supports a variety of progressive causes. The world is filled with rich people who spend their money supporting the political causes that they believe in, both left wing and right wing (see also: the Koch brothers). What I don't understand is why people on the right have become so irrationally obsessed with this particular man, as if he's Satan incarnate.



Really, he said this? He actually said: "The happiest time in my life was when I worked for the Nazis in Hungary" ? Do you have a reliable source for this quote? Because I just looked it up right now and all I could find were a handful of sketchy conspiracy theory websites that never actually explain where the quote supposedly originates from.

Yes that is the email im referring to, now i admit it might just be me reading to much into it, but i think the tone of the email is clear. George Soros delineates a course of action of what must be done and then takes the time to mention which people should be appointed to the position of mediator, position which was part of that course of action he first mentioned, the reason he names the people, is because he knows what he said will be carried out. People who have this clear influence over a presidential candidate, if they are to give their take on things they must be part of the cabinet. In this case since its a situation in a foreign country it might seem like a benign thing to do, but if he takes the time to email her about it im pretty sure there are other things that concerns him that he would make sure Hillary be aware of.

Wealthy donors get to donate money, not email people what situation must be addressed and how it must be dealt with.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Qr7TnWG74

[Harry Seaward]

I'll wait until the people who have this evidence present it so it can be publicly reviewed. And least we forget there was also evidence of WMD in Iraq.

And yes, the WMD response. Yes, that's a reasonable point to bring up as a way to make it seem like you're being reasonable in denying a point that is undeniably true. Well sorry to burst your bubble, but the CIA didn't lie about WMDs. Bush and Cheney did.

[Dra508]

Intelligence isn't about evidence. That Law and order requirements. Why the fuck you think we all thought there was WMD?

We all going to die.

[Sallos]

If you are serious about preventing Donald Trump from becoming president based on allegations that Russia hacked DNC emails, you need evidence. And evidence that Donald Trump knew about it and worked with Russia to make it happen, which is really what matters.

[Louie_Cypher]

what do i think about the latest press conference , i thinkabout russians "hacking" of the election, as many of you my mor may not know my career is cyber security, i put hacking in quotes because, it's not breaking into computers, it's more about gaining access t information that can be used to your advantage, so an example would be, day you have a competitor, most people would thing hacking would be breaking and stealing their code, the smart hack would be ganining info to cause their to crash, it's manipulating info to your advantage, without leaving a trace, so what the russianss did was brilliant but this getting long and i gotta run please excuse my shitty grammer and spelling - louie

[aggroculture]

McCain IS an ally when it comes to Trump's view on Russia. Sorry, but I don't see every single Republican as "The Mortal Enemy." That is what got us into this mess, and not having allies against Trump on the Republican (majority) side is just gonna make things WORSE. The Republicans have a supermajority right now. If they wanted, they could rubber stamp every fucking thing Trump wants. In some areas, they can't even filibuster, anymore. The only balance will come from Republicans against Trump.

Most of the #NeverTrump people were BERNIE fans, or they voted for Johnson or didn't vote. There was no way they could stop that locomotive.

This whole "threat of Russian rule" thing is ridiculous, though. I think it's just as ridiculous as when JFK ran and people thought the Pope would be running the country. My dentist's assistant is from Poland and she said she thought that the Trump - Putin relationship was good. I was shocked. Polish people typically HATE Russians (long history). She said, "keep your friends close but your enemies closer."

I'm not talking about Bernie bros, I'm talking about the Bushes, Romney, McCain, Lindsay Graham, the lists and lists of prominent Republicans and retired generals and intelligence community and finance people who refused to endorse Trump who we were supposed to believe would help Hillary win. They didn't come through then, and they won't come through now. McCain is no ally of mine. He's taken more NRA money than anyone.

I don't buy this Russian narrative either: 63 million people voted for Trump, they actively chose Trump: Russian maneuvering sent them to the polling booths to choose Trump? Nah.

Also, if you don't buy the Russian rule narrative what's McCain an ally about? He's puffing up his chest about nothing. And it will come to nothing, just like Trump's "conflicts of interests." Fucking Dick Cheney went to war to make billions for his friends in Halliburton...plus ca change.

John Podesta willingly gave his gmail password to a phishing scam. Those people deserved to lose the election.
Turns out all that hype about Hillary not being able to handle a damn email account...wasn't so wrong after all.

[Harry Seaward]

... wut

There are also 100 senators per state representing each state but nobody is saying that is unfair. ITS NOT A FUCKING DEMOCRACY. It's a democratic republic (of states).

What are you talking about? You read that entire post and decided to focus on, and freak out about, the 4 word sentence at the end that's clearly a joke? Chill the hell out dude.

[Khrz]

... wut

There are also 100 senators per state representing each state but nobody is saying that is unfair. ITS NOT A FUCKING DEMOCRACY. It's a democratic republic (of states).

Sorry as that's a bit off topic, but no democracy is a "true" democracy anyway. People are encouraged to participate to 5% of key events, all the rest is decided without any form of direct participation.
People make fun of the French for always being on strike, but that pretty much the only way you can tell your government "fuck off, you're not doing that without us" nowadays.

[Harry Seaward]

This is *intel* not evidence.

The most convincing intel I have seen to suggest that Russia did "hack" DNC/Podesta was the list of other targets attached to the URL shortener account. Nobody but Russia would target that list (unless it was someone wanting to appear to be Russian).

That still doesn't say that Russia gave the leaks to Wikileaks. Wikileaks continues to say that it absolutely wasn't russia, and there is some suggestion that it was an internal leak. Who know... but still no solid intel and definitely no evidence.

It still doesn't say that Trump was in any way involved or even that Russia was trying to help Trump or if they were even trying to influence anything.

Like I already told the other guy, it doesn't matter what you think the evidence is. The people who need the evidence have the evidence.

Putin was actively involved in influencing the US Presidential election with the specific purpose of helping Trump win. Those are the facts. Like, this much is settled. Why are people continuing to argue this? It doesn't matter what you guys think or how you feel, it happened. We can debate what the appropriate actions to take are, but there is no longer any room to debate the fact that it happened.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with all these people like, "Eh I don't buy it." LOL it does not matter if you buy it. It does not matter if the public evidence is not sufficient enough for you.

[Harry Seaward]

nope. nobody has evidence. they have intel. only intel has been shared. some of the intel is public, some is classified but there is NO evidence.

Honestly, how could you possibly know that? How could you possibly know what the top intelligence agencies of the United States have in terms of evidence?

[Louie_Cypher]

started posting something but got hung-up on spelling errors and leghth-as many of you may or may not know cyber security is my profession, as of about two years ago , i quit using the term "hacking" as with any thing, it's a simple mis-definintion of the media, to invoke fear, for various gains, so when someone says, "hacker , people think of a person in a hoodieng hunched over a keboard breaking into a coupter and stealing your cc information, i would submit that a true hack would be getting access to your information and being able to manipulate you to go to the atm and withdraw the money yourself and be and be able to repeate this action without outside detection, so it's more like akido, as apposed to boxing. it's something called advanced persistent threat modeling. so one more example say I had a software competitor, old school thinking, would be break into the computer and steal the code, new thinking is to gain access to their computers to crash thier stock so they can no longer pay their employees or go out of business, see the difference, that's why this russian "hack" is so brilliant, this getting long again and i still can't type as well as i used to, so i'm sure full of spelling and grammatical errors, but food for thought (so please excuse).
and p.S.A. -louie

[Harry Seaward]

I don't know... maybe its because they are called *intelligence* agencies and the reports that they have released to the public or in classified forms have all been *intelligence* reports.... just a guess though!

WTF are you even talking about? You're just using a bunch of nonsensical semantics that don't even prove your point. Do you realize that 'intel' and 'evidence' are not two completely opposite, mutually exclusive concepts? You're saying these agencies gather information and all they possess is information, therefore they can't and don't have 'evidence?'

wut

Okay, I will repeat what I said using your preferred terminology.

The top US intelligence agencies collect intel. "Intel" is information they've gathered by way of spying and whatever other means they decide to use. Included in the intel they've collected while investigating these hacks is the evidence that proves Putin was actively involved in influencing the US Presidential election with the specific purpose of helping Trump win. Okay. There we go. We're back where we started, because we had to have a retarded argument about the proper words to use, despite the facts being exactly the same.

The people who need the evidence that was gained through intel gathering have the evidence that was gained through intel gathering.

The evidence found while gathering intel has settled that it happened. Again, that much is known. It's not a guess. It's not ambiguous. It's not up for interpretation. It happened. The end.

But I'm done with this. I cannot keep slamming my head into the brick wall that is this group of insane people who think the CIA is just making this story up because ??reasons??

[Harry Seaward]

The one agency that was operating in evidence (FBI) has repeatedly said they have insufficient *evidence*

FBI backs CIA view that Russia intervened to help Trump win election

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-backs-cia-view-that-russia-intervened-to-help-trump-win-election/2016/12/16/05b42c0e-c3bf-11e6-9a51-cd56ea1c2bb7_story.html

[cashpiles (closed)]

FBI backs CIA view that Russia intervened to help Trump win election

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-backs-cia-view-that-russia-intervened-to-help-trump-win-election/2016/12/16/05b42c0e-c3bf-11e6-9a51-cd56ea1c2bb7_story.html

this changes nothing. there's no way to quantify in hard numbers how many people were swayed by this intervention.

[Harry Seaward]

this changes nothing. there's no way to quantify in hard numbers how many people were swayed by this intervention.

What? How is that remotely relevant?

(Spoiler: It's not.)

The fact of the matter is that it happened. It doesn't matter if it swayed one single vote or not. That is not the point here. An adversarial foreign state actively meddled with our election. Their reasoning or the outcome is irrelevant.

[cashpiles (closed)]

What? How is that remotely relevant?

(Spoiler: It's not.)

The fact of the matter is that it happened. It doesn't matter if it swayed one single vote or not. That is not the point here. An adversarial foreign state actively meddled with our election. Their reasoning or the outcome is irrelevant.

I'm just concerned that the election result would be overturned because of this.

[Khrz]

I'm just concerned that the election result would be overturned because of this.

Absolutely no way.

[Harry Seaward]

I'm just concerned that the election result would be overturned because of this.

Well I think the reasonable courses of actions to take would be:

- Temporarily delay the electoral vote
- Have an investigation involving top bipartisan Congressional leadership
- Present the result of this investigation along with the CIA's evidence to all of the electors
- Present the electors with the details of Trump's hidden financial information and other obvious conflicts of interest
- Let the electors decide how to vote based off of all of this information combined

Like I said earlier today, one of the main purposes of the electoral college is to deny the Presidency to somebody that wins the election, but is openly corrupt, controlled by a foreign nation, or an insane fascist dictatorial demagogue. The electoral college was created specifically to prevent somebody like Donald Trump becoming the President. They exist to sweep up the mess when America makes an absolute fuck up. They are the final "do-over" button.

So I hope they take into consideration all available data points and perform their Constitutional duties. I hope they put country before party. All it will take is 38 people.

[Khrz]

Unfortunately, a LOT of momentum is behind getting the EC to flip their vote because of the Intel discovered. That's why politicians are asking to show a non-public Intel report to the EC.

Oh yeah, that's gonna go well. Any person replacing Trump will automatically be considered a Clinton puppet, the republicans will lose all credibility, the democrats will be dishonored, and the people who expected a Trump stewardship will lose their fucking mind. Good times ahead...

Anyway, if there was actual meddling in order to destabilise the credibility of the USA... Congratulations on a job well done. This thing's a fucking mess from a to z.

[allegro]

Yes, they agree with an Intel assessment. The FBI said they wouldn't have enough evidence from a legal perspective though.

If this Intel were truly cut and dry "evidence" and "proof" as you think it is, what is the point of Obama ordering an investigation? What more is there to understand if it's been "decided" as you say? What do you know that Obama doesn't?

Using it as leverage for something else. Like, doing something about this shit (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/16/world/middleeast/aleppo-evacuation-assad-syria.html). Or continuing sanctions (the spankings will continue).

The bottom line is that the CIA informs our government as to whom we can trust and cannot trust; right now, the incoming POTUS says he doesn't believe that intel, because he cares mostly about business and financial endeavors. So, there's the rub. Of course, the other rub is that the incoming POTUS was effectively PUT THERE by the guy we allegedly "cannot trust" and I suspect, with more intel, we might be able to find that the incoming POTUS had something to do with it. Now THAT would be fun, wouldn't it?

Methinks this is only the beginning.

We are living in INTERESTING times.

[allegro]

I'm not talking about Bernie bros, I'm talking about the Bushes, Romney, McCain, Lindsay Graham, the lists and lists of prominent Republicans and retired generals and intelligence community and finance people who refused to endorse Trump who we were supposed to believe would help Hillary win.
Yeah, well, I never thought that math would work, that logic made no sense to me.

The only reason McCain refused to endorse Trump, other than he hates Trump, is that McCain was up for re-election and easily could have lost. But NONE of those people could have changed the mind of people who were convinced that Trump was their man; and, even if they convinced people that Trump WASN'T the right person, the other choice (Clinton) was NEVER going to be the choice for most Republicans, EVER.

After the election, I got together with several friends here and there, and I just never realized how many people hate "THE CLINTONS." BOTH of them. Like they are both The Devil who took over the Democratic party and fucked it all up; one old friend of mine, who'd been a hardline Democrat for forty fucking years, said she hated "THE CLINTONS" so fucking much, she voted for Trump. She's 78-years-old, so whatever, I don't get it. I really don't. But, it is what it is. No McCain, or Graham, or financier, or whatever is gonna talk somebody outa that.

Hillary wasn't running her server. Hillary can't even use a computer, she is known to pretty much solely use her Blackberry. And I mean, really, who the fuck still uses a BLACKBERRY?

The HEAD OF THE CIA fell prey to a phishing scam, dude.

God bless America. Home of the intel incompetent.

Harry Seaward, what DigitalChaos is trying to say is that "intelligence" gathered by the CIA is "information" but it's not necessarily hard "evidence" like the kind of evidence that you can use in court to prosecute somebody; there is "information" that indicates that a middle-man / people were used by the Kremlin, at Putin's direction, to do this, to "influence" the election, but that is not the same thing as literally CHANGING the election; there is no hard evidence that the email leaks changed peoples' minds about Clinton, or if they had already made up their minds about Clinton based on other things like Benghazi, the lack of permits for her construction project at her house in Long Island, or just the long-lying hatred of all things Clintons in the Rust Belt which lost her those Electoral Votes (remember, she won the popular vote); her own campaign's negligence in not focusing on the Rust Belt or Swing States is where she really "lost." Had she lost the popular vote by a landslide, maybe we'd really see this "Negative Russian Influence" but we don't see that. She won the popular vote by a landslide. The area where she failed is due to her own failure in strategy.

The electoral vote cannot be delayed. The date is set in stone in the Constitution and in the U.S. Code, for very good reasons.

Yes, Russia should have its pee-pee wacked for trying.

No, the election shouldn't be changed.

Yes, I used to defend the Electoral College; things have changed, I ain't doing that, anymore.

We need a new Federal popular vote system.

[aggroculture]

Here's what the Republicans are up to in North Carolina: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/north-carolinas-republicans-succeed-in-power-grab/510950/

[allegro]

Here's what the Republicans are up to in North Carolina: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/north-carolinas-republicans-succeed-in-power-grab/510950/

Yeah, I JUST read that before I came here, ISN'T THAT FUCKING BULLSHIT?! FUCKING SCUMBAGS.

I hope that maybe the incoming Governor can just come in and sign another bill VOIDING the last Governor's law. Call it the "FU Law."

You know what is funny about states like NC is that a SHITLOAD OF YANKEES are moving there from states like New Jersey and Illinois and New York where their property taxes are too high. G and I looked into moving there. Cary, NC (a suburb of Raleigh) is known as "Containment Area for Relocated Yankees." We know a bunch of Air Traffic Controllers from this area who moved to either Charlotte or Raleigh Durham to retire (to get away from property taxes here in Illinois and, if you qualify, you may not have to pay Federal taxes on your pension in NC like we don't here in IL). And the more this happens, the more DEMOCRAT NC is gonna become. This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, LOL.

[Louie_Cypher]

Yeah, well, I never thought that math would work, that logic made no sense to me.

The only reason McCain refused to endorse Trump, other than he hates Trump, is that McCain was up for re-election and easily could have lost. But NONE of those people could have changed the mind of people who were convinced that Trump was their man; and, even if they convinced people that Trump WASN'T the right person, the other choice (Clinton) was NEVER going to be the choice for most Republicans, EVER. you may laugh but in know with cofidence blackberry is the mostsecure smart phone out there

After the election, I got together with several friends here and there, and I just never realized how many people hate "THE CLINTONS." BOTH of them. Like they are both The Devil who took over the Democratic party and fucked it all up; one old friend of mine, who'd been a hardline Democrat for forty fucking years, said she hated "THE CLINTONS" so fucking much, she voted for Trump. She's 78-years-old, so whatever, I don't get it. I really don't. But, it is what it is. No McCain, or Graham, or financier, or whatever is gonna talk somebody outa that.

Hillary wasn't running her server. Hillary can't even use a computer, she is known to pretty much solely use her Blackberry. And I mean, really, who the fuck still uses a BLACKBERRY?

The HEAD OF THE CIA fell prey to a phishing scam, dude.

God bless America. Home of the intel incompetent.

@Harry Seaward (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=148), what @DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) is trying to say is that "intelligence" gathered by the CIA is "information" but it's not necessarily hard "evidence" like the kind of evidence that you can use in court to prosecute somebody; there is "information" that indicates that a middle-man / people were used by the Kremlin, at Putin's direction, to do this, to "influence" the election, but that is not the same thing as literally CHANGING the election; there is no hard evidence that the email leaks changed peoples' minds about Clinton, or if they had already made up their minds about Clinton based on other things like Benghazi, the lack of permits for her construction project at her house in Long Island, or just the long-lying hatred of all things Clintons in the Rust Belt which lost her those Electoral Votes (remember, she won the popular vote); her own campaign's negligence in not focusing on the Rust Belt or Swing States is where she really "lost." Had she lost the popular vote by a landslide, maybe we'd really see this "Negative Russian Influence" but we don't see that. She won the popular vote by a landslide. The area where she failed is due to her own failure in strategy.

The electoral vote cannot be delayed. The date is set in stone in the Constitution and in the U.S. Code, for very good reasons.

Yes, Russia should have its pee-pee wacked for trying.

No, the election shouldn't be changed.

Yes, I used to defend the Electoral College; things have changed, I ain't doing that, anymore.

We need a new Federal popular vote system. i know that blackberry is the most secure smartphone out there
-louie

[allegro]

i know that blackberry is the most secure smartphone out there
-louie

REALLY?? Hmmmmm, interesting.

[Dra508]

because people like you think intel is factual evidence. Nothing you listed is fact.


The ONLY way intel can be called evidence is if you call it CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE

Plenty has happened in history based on intel, not evidence. Why you parsing bro?

[allegro]

The EC is still a solid system. If you want to fuck around a bit with the balancing they have done between popular vote and per-state vote.. go for it. I really really hate our continual slide to making every goddamned thing a collective national perspective. We are a republic and there is a lot of value in that, if people would comprehend that we are a republic.

The only way abolishing the EC makes sense is if you make state secession a legality in the constitution again. Not allowing secession while taking away the EC is really unfair to the less populated states.

I think you can still allow state's rights but count actual votes vs. electoral votes. There is no real "balance" in the way things are now, anyway, when you look at it. California still has a SHITLOAD more EC votes than Montana, so what difference does it make?

[allegro]

Plenty has happened in history based on intel, not evidence. Why you parsing bro?

Yeah, but that never worked out well, at all. Ever.

[Louie_Cypher]

ever wonder why you never seen a modern president with an iphone or even an ipad?
-louie

[Dra508]

Yeah, but that never worked out well, at all. Ever.

Didn't say it was a good thing, but for all us to be like "where's the evidence" isn't real. It gives me the same feeling when folks say "we won, stop whining" or "what is a fact, really?"

Fascism is on our door step people!

[sick among the pure]

ever wonder why you never seen a modern president with an iphone or even an ipad?
-louie

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Obama-BuzzFeed3-620x362.jpg
That would be an iPhone. Either a 5s or a 6, hard to tell from the back in the case it's in.

And yes, I realize that it was part of a joke video.

[Mantra]

i admit it might just be me reading to much into it, but i think the tone of the email is clear. George Soros delineates a course of action of what must be done and then takes the time to mention which people should be appointed to the position of mediator, position which was part of that course of action he first mentionedYes. I see that he makes a suggestion that a mediator should be sent in to try and deescalate the tension there before things get worse. And I see that he suggests a variety of different people who might be good choices for that task. What I DON'T see in this email is any evidence that George Soros is the diabolical commander behind the curtain who secretly controls society.


People who have this clear influence over a presidential candidate, if they are to give their take on things they must be part of the cabinet. In this case since its a situation in a foreign country it might seem like a benign thing to do, but if he takes the time to email her about it im pretty sure there are other things that concerns him that he would make sure Hillary be aware of.

Wealthy donors get to donate money, not email people what situation must be addressed and how it must be dealt with.What exactly is the problem here? That a man sent an email to his friend with his thoughts on what would be a good way to handle a very serious situation? It's a free country. People are free to send each other emails saying/suggesting whatever the fuck they want. People do this all the time, in all walks of life, in all political affiliations. But for some reason, the right has developed this psychotic obsession with some random rich dude. It is totally and completely irrational.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Qr7TnWG74
Uh...did you actually listen to this clip? He's describing what it felt like to be a young Jewish teenager living under the Nazis. He says: "It was actually probably the happiest year of my life, that year of German occupation. For me it was a very positive experience. It's a strange thing, because you see, there's incredible suffering around you and in fact you are in considerable danger yourself. But you're 14 years old and you don't believe that it can actually touch you. You have a belief in yourself, your belief in your father. It's a very happy-making, exhilarating experience." He is describing the paradoxical feelings of being a 14-year-old Jewish kid living in Nazi-occupied Budapest, and how despite the danger and suffering around you, you don't believe you'll be hurt because you're just a kid. This is about a million miles away from what you claiming that "the happiest time in his life was when he worked for the nazis in Hungary."

What is wrong with your mind?

[Mantra]

The only way abolishing the EC makes sense is if you make state secession a legality in the constitution again.

I could probably probably live with this.

I was recently thinking that maybe the problem with the United States is that it's just too fucking BIG. The only way to manage a country this huge is through a big, lumbering, convoluted bureaucracy.

[Louie_Cypher]

i still not sold, and stand by my original statement
-louie this from cnet https://www.cnet.com/news/president-obama-says-he-cant-use-iphone-for-security-reasons/

[sick among the pure]

i still not sold, and stand by my original statement
-louie this from cnet https://www.cnet.com/news/president-obama-says-he-cant-use-iphone-for-security-reasons/

You know that photo was part of a joke video he did... right?

[allegro]

There are times to act based on intel when it would be much better to use evidence. War is filled with examples, many of which came back to bite us. But they are situations where you are forced to gamble. But using intel to override a national election that may very will have operated exactly as designed? Holy fuck... And that's not even considering the internal negative consequences of altering the election. Too many people are forming opinions on this because of their view of Hillary or Trump. The possibility that Russia actually had an impact is just an excuse to move for a last minute reversal of a result they dislike.

Tens of millions of voters actually voted for Trump. It's not like some other country is staging a coup and placing a president that nobody in the country wants. And along those lines, are we going to ignore how much propaganda Hillary's team pushed that fucked with the RNC primaries with the intention of getting Trump to win? That was ok enough to keep the election moving forward? How about the blatant corruption within the DNC that heavily favored Hillary? That's apparently also acceptable enough to keep the election moving forward.
War is a great example of when intel is often totally fucking WRONG when considering cultural communication differences. Us dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan is a good example. But we use intel in war all the time, we use it on the ground CONSTANTLY.

But, yes, unfortunately, all that the Russians did is point out the true faults of the DNC and the Democratic candidate.

If the Russians propagated LIES to fix the election, that would be another thing; but they exposed the truth. And Clinton STILL won the popular vote, by an overwhelming number. Because she won in hugely populated areas but not necessarily in all areas of all states, she lost the electoral election. There is no way we can blame THAT on Russia.

[allegro]

You know that photo was part of a joke video he did... right?
No, he really could not use an iPhone for all 8 years of his Presidency. They barely let him have a Fitbit. He wanted an Apple Watch (he's really into fitness) and they ixnayed that. The President can't have anything that's traceable.

Remember at one time they thought hackers could hack into Dick Cheney's pacemaker? That shit's no joke, they have a built-in modem.

To be fair, though, Louie_Cypher, that CNET article is from 2014, the iOS has some improvements.

The President can't have a Blackberry, either.

[sick among the pure]

No, he really could not use an iPhone for all 8 years of his Presidency. They barely let him have a Fitbit. He wanted an Apple Watch (he's really into fitness) and they ixnayed that. The President can't have anything that's traceable.

Remember at one time they thought hackers could hack into Dick Cheney's pacemaker? That shit's no joke, they have a built-in modem.

To be fair, though, @Louie_Cypher (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=775), that CNET article is from 2014, the iOS has some improvements.

The President can't have a Blackberry, either.

Oh, I know he couldn't. That's why I was pointing out the photo that I posted was from a joke video, which also meant my post was a joke post.

[allegro]

Sorry I didn't see a photo in a post.

Edit: oh wait, shit, now I see it. LOL.

[Mantra]

I remember googling this a few weeks back because I was curious if they were going to take away Trump's phone (and his twitter access). I'm too lazy to look it up again, but I seem to recall that the president is allowed to have some kind of unique phone that's specifically modified for his use and is approved by the secret service, and I think it's super fucking restricted on what it can do. And yes, I do seem to recall that it was a modified blackberry because they said it has the best security, or something like that.

[allegro]

I remember googling this a few weeks back because I was curious if they were going to take away Trump's phone (and his twitter access). I'm too lazy to look it up again, but I seem to recall that the president is allowed to have some kind of unique phone that's specifically modified for his use and is approved by the secret service, and I think it's super fucking restricted on what it can do. And yes, I do seem to recall that it was a modified blackberry because they said it has the best security, or something like that.

SEE THIS HERE (https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2016/06/10/president-obamas-new-smartphone-is-more-like-a-toddler-phone/%3Fsource%3Ddam)

I guess they DID finally let him have a modified Blackberry.

[sick among the pure]

Sorry I didn't see a photo in a post.

Edit: oh wait, shit, now I see it. LOL.

lol, no problem. I just thought, since joking doesn't often translate well online, maybe I was just so burnt out from everything going on right now that I just really started to suck at relaying anything through text anymore.

[Mantra]

SEE THIS HERE (https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2016/06/10/president-obamas-new-smartphone-is-more-like-a-toddler-phone/%3Fsource%3Ddam)

I guess they DID finally let him have a modified Blackberry.

Ha, yeah that's one of the articles I came across.

This part of the article kind of blew my mind: "Blackberry has been in a tailspin since shortly after the Apple iPhone hit the market. Once incredibly popular, the company’s market share has dropped below 1% in the United States and sales of its phones dropped to 900,000 in its most recent quarter, or only slightly more sales that Apple makes per day."

It's weird how stuff like that happens. I remember when Blackberrys were an actual thing, and now it's like a joke about ancient days. I wonder why they crashed so hard.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Ha, yeah that's one of the articles I came across.

This part of the article kind of blew my mind: "Blackberry has been in a tailspin since shortly after the Apple iPhone hit the market. Once incredibly popular, the company’s market share has dropped below 1% in the United States and sales of its phones dropped to 900,000 in its most recent quarter, or only slightly more sales that Apple makes per day."

It's weird how stuff like that happens. I remember when Blackberrys were an actual thing, and now it's like a joke about ancient days. I wonder why they crashed so hard.

I'd say because of the larger touch screens offered by Apple and Android phones, coupled with a more advanced interface that doesn't require a physical keyboard. The proliferation of apps on both systems also helped increase Apple and Android phones' appeal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some popular apps were just never supported on Blackberry phones. Apple also benefited from its immense iPod popularity. Music played a big factor. Apple was able to shift their huge base of iPod customers over to the iPhone. Finally, the sleek and revolutionary design of the iPhone made it seem like any phone with a physical keyboard was yesterday's technology. This is just my take on it. Blackberry decided not to abandon its physical keyboard, and when they did, it was too late.

another factor is the iPhone's lack of a removable back cover to access the battery and other things. To me, back covers cheapen the quality of a device.

[Exocet]

Did Obama mean that they will try to hit the Russians back? If there is concrete evidence, Two can play that game? He said something in a press conference about having secrets about them which America could use to their advantage.

Im sure the CIA has mountains of Dirt (thats not been released) on that corrupt cesspool of a Russian government. But everyone knows the deal with the Kremlin, be interesting to see if they have anything that would acctually effect Russian government??. I dont know what could possibly lower Putins approval ratings, they will probably go up, He can shoot down planes and murder critics and carpet bomb his own civilians..( Chechnya, Grozny, 2000)...what else could possibly have any effect?
Its like releasing nude photos on the internet of an enemy. (Who in this case is already a well known porn star???)
I dont know, its all so weird.

[Sallos]

Yes. I see that he makes a suggestion that a mediator should be sent in to try and deescalate the tension there before things get worse. And I see that he suggests a variety of different people who might be good choices for that task. What I DON'T see in this email is any evidence that George Soros is the diabolical commander behind the curtain who secretly controls society.

What exactly is the problem here? That a man sent an email to his friend with his thoughts on what would be a good way to handle a very serious situation? It's a free country. People are free to send each other emails saying/suggesting whatever the fuck they want. People do this all the time, in all walks of life, in all political affiliations. But for some reason, the right has developed this psychotic obsession with some random rich dude. It is totally and completely irrational.


Uh...did you actually listen to this clip? He's describing what it felt like to be a young Jewish teenager living under the Nazis. He says: "It was actually probably the happiest year of my life, that year of German occupation. For me it was a very positive experience. It's a strange thing, because you see, there's incredible suffering around you and in fact you are in considerable danger yourself. But you're 14 years old and you don't believe that it can actually touch you. You have a belief in yourself, your belief in your father. It's a very happy-making, exhilarating experience." He is describing the paradoxical feelings of being a 14-year-old Jewish kid living in Nazi-occupied Budapest, and how despite the danger and suffering around you, you don't believe you'll be hurt because you're just a kid. This is about a million miles away from what you claiming that "the happiest time in his life was when he worked for the nazis in Hungary."

What is wrong with your mind?

No one secretly controls society, not in the way you're implying atleast, its to chaotic.
And if you see nothing wrong with the blatant influence that this man has on Hillary Clinton, if you think its normal for an elected official to be advised by a non elected official on how to handle certain matters than i'm sure you feel the same way about Trump's sons (current) role on his father presidency.

So the paradoxical feelings of a jewish kid, who lied being a christian and worked for the nazis confiscating goods from jews and believing he would never get hurt because he's a kid turns out to be the happiest year of his life and you're cool with that? Okay.

[aggroculture]

Yeah, I JUST read that before I came here, ISN'T THAT FUCKING BULLSHIT?! FUCKING SCUMBAGS.

I hope that maybe the incoming Governor can just come in and sign another bill VOIDING the last Governor's law. Call it the "FU Law."

You know what is funny about states like NC is that a SHITLOAD OF YANKEES are moving there from states like New Jersey and Illinois and New York where their property taxes are too high. G and I looked into moving there. Cary, NC (a suburb of Raleigh) is known as "Containment Area for Relocated Yankees." We know a bunch of Air Traffic Controllers from this area who moved to either Charlotte or Raleigh Durham to retire (to get away from property taxes here in Illinois and, if you qualify, you may not have to pay Federal taxes on your pension in NC like we don't here in IL). And the more this happens, the more DEMOCRAT NC is gonna become. This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, LOL.

That's good to hear. But the congressional districts look ridiculous :https://medium.com/@erikaheidewald/the-north-carolina-gops-power-grab-represents-the-end-of-democracy-d94a68ca3000#.5vv7jddtr
http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/north-carolina

[allegro]

That's good to hear. But the congressional districts look ridiculous :https://medium.com/@erikaheidewald/the-north-carolina-gops-power-grab-represents-the-end-of-democracy-d94a68ca3000#.5vv7jddtr
http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/north-carolina
True, that's in outlying districts, less populated, and it used to be prevented via the VRA. It's pretty much why we decided to remain here in a safely-blue state for the remainder of our lives. But the practices there went WAY beyond gerrymandering; it was all flat out racist voter suppression.

[Louie_Cypher]

Oh, I know he couldn't. That's why I was pointing out the photo that I posted was from a joke video, which also meant my post was a joke post. i would submit anything that connect's to the internet i vunurable
check out https://www.shodan.io/ or https://www.metasploit.com/ that's ok with me guaranteed employment for a long time to come
-louie

[Jinsai]

I'm always sick of those click-bait virus havens you see on practically EVERY site... ten ways to cut your blood pressure down with this magic fruit, you won't believe how fat this celebrity got, and ten interesting facts you never knew about Alec Baldwin!

WHY THE FUCK am I seeing ads now saying "You Won't Believe How Spoiled Brannon Trump is at ONLY 10 Years Old!!!"

He's ten. Leave him alone. I don't care how much I hate his father, or how much his father "spoils" him. He's a ten year old kid; son of one of the most hated men on the planet right now. His life is about to be hell, even if you click-bait parasites left him completely alone... but seriously, fuck OFF! I hope his father is spoiling the hell out of him and making his life as pleasant as he can with all his bullshit money, because it isn't going to make up for how awful this sort of harassment is for a kid.

You wanna go after Trump's kids? Go after his adult daughter that he's actually involving in his campaign in ways that are disconcerting... go after his trophy-hunting douchebag sons who are ADULTS and seem to be total assholes. Leave the kid alone.

And then... for a second, the cynical part of me kicks in... and I remember Melania's pledge to stop cyber-bullying... and suddenly I wonder if this is all just a set up to legitimize her project. I want to believe no mother would do something that sick, and then I remember that it sorta happens all the time. This is the post-Honey Boo Boo world.

But since there's no evidence of that, then I'll just say "fuck this." I will boycott any 'news' outlet that runs that bait, I will tell that I am doing so and why, and I will say that it offends my snowflake liberal feelings.

[Khrz]

Kids of millionaires having an insanely well-off childhood ? OUTRAGEOUS

[Mantra]

And if you see nothing wrong with the blatant influence that this man has on Hillary Clinton, if you think its normal for an elected official to be advised by a non elected official on how to handle certain matters than i'm sure you feel the same way about Trump's sons (current) role on his father presidency.You didn't claim that Hillary Clinton was merely influenced by George Soros, which is a normal thing that happens to every single human being who ever interacts with anyone. You claimed that she was owned by him, which is a paranoid exaggeration. Your statement that she is "owned by George Soros" is a product of this psychotic conspiracy theory that the right has become obsessed with, this hysterical idea that this man is uniquely evil and powerful. Whatever misgivings I may have about Trump's children potentially being directly involved in handling government affairs, I still would never claim that they "owned" Trump, nor would I participate in some demented conspiracy theory about them being the hidden puppet masters of the world.


So the paradoxical feelings of a jewish kid, who lied being a christian and worked for the nazis confiscating goods from jews and believing he would never get hurt because he's a kid turns out to be the happiest year of his life and you're cool with that? Okay.Are you honestly not capable of grasping the moral complexity of his situation? He was just a kid who did what he had to do in order to survive an extremely dangerous situation. It's not like he killed people. He pretended to be the godson of a man who's job was to confiscate Jewish property. He was only fourteen. The fact that you want to demonize him for that is incredibly strange and irrational.

[Sallos]

You didn't claim that Hillary Clinton was merely influenced by George Soros, which is a normal thing that happens to every single human being who ever interacts with anyone. You claimed that she was owned by him, which is a paranoid exaggeration. Your statement that she is "owned by George Soros" is a product of this psychotic conspiracy theory that the right has become obsessed with, this hysterical idea that this man is uniquely evil and powerful. Whatever misgivings I may have about Trump's children potentially being directly involved in handling government affairs, I still would never claim that they "owned" Trump, nor would I participate in some demented conspiracy theory about them being the hidden puppet masters of the world.

Are you honestly not capable of grasping the moral complexity of his situation? He was just a kid who did what he had to do in order to survive an extremely dangerous situation. It's not like he killed people. He pretended to be the godson of a man who's job was to confiscate Jewish property. He was only fourteen. The fact that you want to demonize him for that is incredibly strange and irrational.

He dumps millions of dollars to get her elected, he has a beneficial relationship with her that goes as far as to suggest where and how she should intervene in certain situations, she apparently did as she was told or at least one the names he gave later became one of the appointees, and you mean to tell me that if she got elected as president, a man like him wouldn't expect something in return? Hillary wouldn't do or hear his advice, least he wouldn't support her for a second term? Like he said he regretted supporting obama over her because he wasn't as available as she is.

What do exactly do you call this? Friends with benefits? Healthy democratic behavior? It might be normal, but that doesn't make it right.

The man described the period of time in which he worked for the nazis the happiest year of his life. I don't know about you, but he has to be one of the few people to look back at the WWII days as the happiest of his life. And you said it yourself, kid who did what he had to do in order to survive an extremely dangerous situation, would you describe this as happy times?

[allegro]

Jinsai - use a damn adblocker. That shit is an outright security issue these days. The ads you are going to continue to see will be in the "low intelligence" variety because those are the ads most clicked on (it's automatically rebalanced usually), because those are the types of viewers who still don't have an adblocker turned on.

I realize I am encouraging you to help speed up this downward spiral, but my primary point is that those ads are indicative of the lower intelligence demographic.

Is there a Chrome plug-in adblocker that you recommend for Windows (for my MOM, ugh).

[allegate]

I'll come back with a better answer after I do some checks, but the short answer is: most anything as long as you only care about blocking ads and not your privacy. If you care about privacy, it seems a constant evolution of "good adblocker gets bought and starts selling user data, gets replaced by something new"I used to swear by Ad Muncher but then it went free and...yeah. As they say, "If it's free, you're the product".

[telee.kom]

Maybe they are just meme enthusiasts

[Demogorgon]

Looks like most of the faithless electors came from states that Hillary won. More electors defected from Hillary than Trump. (7 vs 2)

Only one GOP vote was for Kasich (the compromise candidate). I am seeing NO Kasich votes from the Dem electors.

No surprise, there. Trump has been the clear victor from the beginning, if you paid enough attention to the way the wind was blowing. I don't say that as a supporter, because I wasn't, but more as someone who's been keen on reading between the electoral lines, so to speak.

[aggroculture]

I wish I could say that this is the end of liberals hoping to be saved from Trump by Republicans.
But it won't be. Instead of clearing house and rebooting their own party in a boldly progressive and anti-corporate direction, which badly needs to be done, they'll be crawling around after McCain and McConnell hoping for a few crumbs. The left has entered into profound crisis and there will be no turning point until they acknowledge this, which they have not. I still see analyses saying that Hillary lost because of this or that tactical error or blaming James Comey. It runs a lot deeper than that. Shaun King makes a lot of good points here: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/king-obama-clintons-no-idea-dems-lost-election-article-1.2916282

[Harry Seaward]

I hate when stereotypes are true, but I have yet to encounter a single Trump follower or voter that isn't a complete fuckin' moron or troll. Are there normal, reasonable, or intelligent people who voted for Donald Trump? Do they exist?

[thevoid99]

I hate when stereotypes are true, but I have yet to encounter a single Trump follower or voter that isn't a complete fuckin' moron or troll. Are there normal, reasonable, or intelligent people who voted for Donald Trump? Do they exist?

You know something. From the people who are friends of my parents who voted for that fuck-head. I can honestly say.... no. He's a rich white kid who runs a fucking Mercedes-Benz dealership while his wife is a fucking moron.

[aggroculture]

The problem runs deep, and I've seen it as long as I've been actively looking at US politics: Al Gore, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton's losing campaigns share the same hubris, which is this liberal inability to see how anybody could not see things the way they see things. Don't worry guys, we've got this. We have this in the bag, trust us. They never fucking had it. Obama galvanized a constituency. Those guys did not. Republicans want it more, and they win it more.

I went to a party the other week, filled with liberal academics: comfortable, middle-aged, well-meaning, progressive people. And I thought: no way are these people going to provide any kind of resistance to Trump. It's well-off liberals: happy to preach about checking your privilege, but unable to recognize their own. And of course I'm in that category too, of choosing soft acquiescence as long as my boat isn't rocked.

[allegro]

The problem runs deep, and I've seen it as long as I've been actively looking at US politics: Al Gore, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton's losing campaigns share the same hubris, which is this liberal inability to see how anybody could not see things the way they see things. Don't worry guys, we've got this. We have this in the bag, trust us. They never fucking had it. Obama galvanized a constituency. Those guys did not. Republicans want it more, and they win it more.

I went to a party the other week, filled with liberal academics: comfortable, middle-aged, well-meaning, progressive people. And I thought: no way are these people going to provide any kind of resistance to Trump. It's well-off liberals: happy to preach about checking your privilege, but unable to recognize their own. And of course I'm in that category too, of choosing soft acquiescence as long as my boat isn't rocked.

Define "resistance to Trump," though. There won't be another Congressional election for two more years. Most Senators are there for six years. The gerrymandering in the South has all but insured that Republicans will stay in control of the South (and never mind the blatant voter suppression due to the gutting of the VRA). The Democrats currently in Congress are a woeful minority with zero ability to control or resist Trump because they are up against a HUGE Republican majority in Congress. The only hope is a bipartisan Congressional resistance against Trump.

We "middle-aged comfortable progressives" can't march into Congress with guns and shoot the fucking Republicans who have been in control of Congress since 2010 now have an even BIGGER control of Congress. While everybody is clutching their pearls over the President, nobody seems to give a flying FUCK about the REAL power in Washington D.C.: CONGRESS.

The same Congress that now wants to reduce Executive powers and give more powers to Congress. Which is probably as it was designed. But, again, voters have too much stupid focus on the Executive branch and zero focus on the REALLY important Legislative branch.

Here's how it currently breaks down:

House:
Republicans: 247
Democrats: 188

Senate (2017):
Republicans: 51
Democrats: 47

I live in Illinois. G and I can vote Progressive until the fucking cows come home (which we generally do, except maybe when it comes to local matters which is another conversation) and it's what pretty much the majority of our area does; but we have a "North Vs. South" thing in this country, FOR SURE. The South is DOMINATED by Republicans, as is a lot of the West. And many of those states took a bunch of the Electoral votes this time.

BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they keep electing MORE REPUBLICANS TO CONGRESS.

Also, Al Gore, John Kerry, Walter Mondale: BORING CANDIDATES.

[aggroculture]

Please tell me what interest Republicans have in stopping Trump - on anything. He is the goose that laid the golden egg of giving them more power than they could ever hope for, in an era in which the country is more socially liberal than ever. Why would they rock their own boat? Trump will be president until 2024.

[aggroculture]

We "middle-aged comfortable progressives" can't march into Congress with guns and shoot the fucking Republicans who have been in control of Congress since 2010 now have an even BIGGER control of Congress. While everybody is clutching their pearls over the President, nobody seems to give a flying FUCK about the REAL power in Washington D.C.: CONGRESS.

I couldn't give a flying fuck about Trump: it's congress, senate, supreme court and all those fucking red states that keep me awake at night.
Trump is the perfect drama that Republicans needed to take control. Democrats and liberals have been caught utterly unawares.



BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they keep electing MORE REPUBLICANS TO CONGRESS.


We have to come to terms with the fact that this is what the people want.
It's the truth. I don't know even know where to begin because I can not understand a person who could vote for a Republican. Pretty much everything they stand for, I strongly believe to be wrong, like literally wrong. Just take one topic: they want environmental deregulation. What we need is to rein it in, not give people the freedom to pollute even more.

[Demogorgon]

The only hope is a bipartisan Congressional resistance against Trump.

While everybody is clutching their pearls over the President, nobody seems to give a flying FUCK about the REAL power in Washington D.C.: CONGRESS.

The same Congress that now wants to reduce Executive powers and give more powers to Congress. Which is probably as it was designed. But, again, voters have too much stupid focus on the Executive branch and zero focus on the REALLY important Legislative branch.

BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they keep electing MORE REPUBLICANS TO CONGRESS.


THIS. This, this, this, this, this.

All year long leading up to the election, I have told people this. I tell people this EVERY election since George W. was elected the first time. Congress is where the voters need to make changes, and the voter turnout for the midterm elections is always horrid. It doesn't matter how big Clinton's popular vote lead was, because the folks who were elected to make the actual decision for us made the decision they wanted to make.

[aggroculture]

Also, Al Gore, John Kerry, Walter Mondale: BORING CANDIDATES.

and Hillary: boring as fuck, even back in the 90s. Obama had flair. Trump, whatever the fuck you say about him, is entertaining.

[allegro]

Please tell me what interest Republicans have in stopping Trump - on anything. He is the goose that laid the golden egg of giving them more power than they could ever hope for, in an era in which the country is more socially liberal than ever. Why would they rock their own boat? Trump will be president until 2024.

NO no no he is NOT. If he fucks this up a lot, he could lose them their Republican control of Congress; just like the ACA and a lot of Americans being pissed about THAT lost the Dems their supermajority control (House, Senate, President). They lost HUGE after that passed and never got control back again. Trump runs them the risk of the same problems. That's why Ryan was having a fucking coronary. That's why McCain stayed way fucking clear of Trump while he was running for re-election in Arizona. That's why Scott Walker (Gov. of Wisconsin) was watching a Packer's game and Tweeted about it the night that Trump did the final debate. All distancing themselves from Trump as much as possible; they see this dude falling, and they wanna get the fuck outa the way.

Republicans didn't need to "take control."

THEY HAVE ALREADY HAD CONTROL SINCE 2010. THEY HAVE SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT, TWICE. THEY HAVE CAUSED A GOVERNMENT SEQUESTER. THEY HAVE BEEN IN ABSOLUTE TOTAL CONTROL. President Obama has had zero control except for a few Executive Orders, and the Republican members of the House SUED HIM OVER THOSE!

Trump represents the possibility of fucking up and THEIR LOSING THAT CONTROL.

This is why guys like McCain are desperately trying to do damage control, here.

Trump is ALREADY a HUGE fuck-up. Telling China to KEEP the fucking sea drone? THE ONE THAT COST US TAXPAYERS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS? THAT CHINA CAN USE TO STEAL TECHNOLOGY FROM? WHAT THE FUCK IS HE DOING???


Please tell me what interest Republicans have in stopping Trump - on anything. He is the goose that laid the golden egg of giving them more power than they could ever hope for, in an era in which the country is more socially liberal than ever. Why would they rock their own boat? Trump will be president until 2024.
I'm still thinking he'll be impeached before that, actually. The guy is REALLY fucking stupid. The SNL skits? They ain't that much of a joke.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ar80sFzViw

[allegro]

We have to come to terms with the fact that this is what the people want.
It's the truth. I don't know even know where to begin because I can not understand a person who could vote for a Republican. Pretty much everything they stand for, I strongly believe to be wrong, like literally wrong. Just take one topic: they want environmental deregulation. What we need is to rein it in, not give people the freedom to pollute even more.

I believe this is only true right now because the current registered voters in the south are primarily white and they primarily vote Republican due to the issue of abortion, even if they don't agree with a single other issue on the Republican platform. I actually KNOW some Republicans like this in G's family down south, driven solely by their Catholic faith and pro-life views. The good news is that they are all old and will be replaced by young liberals. Someday.

The other issue is racial discrimination at the voting booths; if this isn't stopped, not a lot is going to change down south.

HOWEVER, if something major happens like the Republicans take away DISABILITY? Honey, then it's all over. I think we'll see a shitload of angry Republicans down south screaming.

[aggroculture]

Republicans didn't need to "take control."

THEY HAVE ALREADY HAD CONTROL SINCE 2010. THEY HAVE SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT, TWICE. THEY HAVE CAUSED A GOVERNMENT SEQUESTER. THEY HAVE BEEN IN ABSOLUTE TOTAL CONTROL. President Obama has had zero control except for a few Executive Orders, and the Republican members of the House SUED HIM OVER THOSE!

Yes. Why wasn't the Democrat/Hillary narrative "We've never even had a chance to implement our vision because we've been hamstrung by Republicans since 2010: Give us a chance!"?

Why was it: "let's stay the course!"?

[Dra508]

I hate when stereotypes are true, but I have yet to encounter a single Trump follower or voter that isn't a complete fuckin' moron or troll. Are there normal, reasonable, or intelligent people who voted for Donald Trump? Do they exist?I can't imagine 40+ million folks are all fucking morons.

I good friend of mine who lives in SoCal voted for Trump. He an intelligent, middle class, white family guy. He's in California - his repub vote didn't matter. To me, that's like not voting in the general election. Like some of the sterotyped Bernie voters, right?

[onthewall2983]

I'm probably the only member of my family that didn't vote for him. I consider them all to be normal, reasonable and intelligent to various degrees.

[allegate]

I believe this is only true right now because the current registered voters in the south are primarily white and they primarily vote Republican due to the issue of abortion, even if they don't agree with a single other issue on the Republican platform. I actually KNOW some Republicans like this in G's family down south, driven solely by their Catholic faith and pro-life views. The good news is that they are all old and will be replaced by young liberals. Someday.

The other issue is racial discrimination at the voting booths; if this isn't stopped, not a lot is going to change down south.

HOWEVER, if something major happens like the Republicans take away DISABILITY? Honey, then it's all over. I think we'll see a shitload of angry Republicans down south screaming.
Isn't that basically exactly what Paul Ryan wants to do? The Republicans are blatant about their wants and the voters still vote against their best interests.

This feeds into what aggroculture said:

The problem runs deep, and I've seen it as long as I've been actively looking at US politics: Al Gore, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton's losing campaigns share the same hubris, which is this liberal inability to see how anybody could not see things the way they see things. Don't worry guys, we've got this. We have this in the bag, trust us. They never fucking had it. Obama galvanized a constituency. Those guys did not. Republicans want it more, and they win it more.

I went to a party the other week, filled with liberal academics: comfortable, middle-aged, well-meaning, progressive people. And I thought: no way are these people going to provide any kind of resistance to Trump. It's well-off liberals: happy to preach about checking your privilege, but unable to recognize their own. And of course I'm in that category too, of choosing soft acquiescence as long as my boat isn't rocked.I know that I'm not helping things by calling them idiots and saying, "How do you not see this?!?" but it's how I feel.
For a few weeks I stopped being a nihilistic asshole because I saw that the Dems had a huge opportunity to reconstruct themselves in an amazing way. The fresh playing filed is RIGHT FUCKING THERE... if only they would take it. There are a few who are tying but the majority seem to not be going that direction. So what am I supposed to do besides be a giant asshole that laughs at Dem failings like this? Their own insistence on losing hurts to observe any other way.



Your article very very lightly touches on a portion of reasons she lost. But the depth of "she ran a bad campaign" run unbelievably far. Read this: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/michigan-hillary-clinton-trump-232547

Clinton literally turned away campaign volunteers, repeatedly in many situations. She turned an entire bus of volunteers around (they were going to Michigan, where she would eventually lose). This was because she wanted them to stay in Iowa "to fool Trump into campaigning there." She had no ground game. She did not iterate on what was in front of her. She had a static plan that was one-size-fits-all. This is fucking HORRIBLE campaign technique. And can you honestly not see this as being a foreshadowing for how she would have been as POTUS? fuck that shit.They really are fucking this up, aren't they. I don't see them getting a ground game in two years for the Congressional elections, but if Obama helps out then maybe there's a sliver of hope. Though I'm not holding my breath. This is something bigger than state motivations, I think. The DNC needs a new leader first and foremost since it's going to take something concentrated across the nation and I don't see a leader who can bring that kind of direction. Or, at least not one who wants the job. And therein lies the rub.

And you were a nihilistic asshole. That said, I realize now that it was more of a realistic nihilistic asshole than just straight asshole. :p

[allegro]

Isn't that basically exactly what Paul Ryan wants to do? The Republicans are blatant about their wants and the voters still vote against their best interests.
Many REPUBLICAN voters, yes. Makes zero logical sense. Rand Paul of Kentucky believes at least 50% of people on disability are totally fully of shit (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/23/rand-pauls-claim-that-over-half-of-the-people-on-disability-are-either-anxious-or-their-back-hurts/?utm_term=.f5af51410195). But he has a HUGE number of people in Kentucky collecting disability checks. And a HUGE number of people on Disability and Medicare come to his campaign rallies on state-paid electric wheelchairs on state-paid oxygen tanks while collecting Federal disability checks, all of which he wants to eliminate. And they're cheering, yay, Rand Paul. If you look up "moron" in the dictionary, there's a giant group photo of them in there.

Here are some stats (http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/05/20/states-with-the-most-americans-on-disability/3/) (as of 2013). NOTE THAT ALL ARE RED STATES:


5. Mississippi
> Pct. of working age population with benefits: 7.7%
> Pct. with recurring neck and back pain: 30.3% (23rd lowest)
> 2011 labor force participation rate: 59.6% (4th lowest)
> 2011 unemployment rate: 10.5% (4th highest)

Mississippi had the highest poverty rate in 2011 with 22.6% of residents living below the poverty line. Additionally, the state’s median annual household income that year was the lowest in the nation at slightly less than $37,000. Many residents could not find a job even if they were actively looking. In 2011, Mississippi’s average unemployment rate was the nation’s fourth highest. Additionally, a mere 59.6% of the population participated in the workforce as of 2011, the fourth lowest percentage of all states. Potentially related to the state’s high levels of poverty, as well as obesity, 11.3% of SSDI beneficiaries suffered from a circulatory system disease in December 2011. This was the highest of any state, and well above the 7.7% of beneficiaries nationally.

4. Kentucky
> Pct. of working age population with benefits: 8.1%
> Pct. with recurring neck and back pain: 34.8% (5th highest)
> 2011 labor force participation rate: 61.5% (10th lowest)
> 2011 unemployment rate: 9.5% (12th highest)

More than 19% of Kentucky’s population lived in poverty in 2011, a higher percentage than all but four states. Many people in Kentucky may not have the means to get well-paying work. Just 83.1% of people have at least a high school diploma, the sixth lowest percentage of all states. Meanwhile, just 21.1% of adults have at least a bachelor’s degree, the fifth lowest percentage of all states. As of 2011, just 61.5% of Kentuckians were considered to be in the labor force, among the lowest rates in the nation. In a well-publicized case, a Kentucky judge, David Daugherty, was accused in a civil suit filed in February of improperly approving Social Security benefits in order to help local attorney Eric Conn, arguably the most prominent disability lawyer in the region, receive millions of dollars from the federal government for handling these cases.

3. Alabama
> Pct. of working age population with benefits: 8.1%
> Pct. with recurring neck and back pain: 34.6% (6th highest)
> 2011 labor force participation rate: 58.5% (2nd lowest)
> 2011 unemployment rate: 8.7% (19th highest)

Alabama was one of the nation’s poorest states as of 2011, with a median annual income of just $41,415. Additionally, educational attainment in the state was limited, with just 82.7% of all residents holding a high school diploma and just 22.3% a college degree in 2011. That year, the state’s average unemployment rate was 8.7%, slightly lower than the U.S. average rate of 8.9% for the year. However, just 58.5% of the population participated in the labor force as of 2011, lower than all states except for West Virginia. In December 2011, SSDI recipients in Alabama were far more likely to receive payments due to diseases of the circulatory system or the musculoskeletal system than recipients in the large majority of other states. Alabamians were among the most likely Americans surveyed in 2012 to state they had experienced a heart attack or were diabetic.

2. Arkansas
> Pct. of working age population with benefits: 8.2%
> Pct. with recurring neck and back pain: 36.1% (2nd highest)
> 2011 labor force participation rate: 60.4% (8th lowest)
> 2011 unemployment rate: 7.9% (24th lowest)

In 2011, the median annual income in Arkansas was just $38,758, the third lowest of all states in the United States. Arkansas is also among the least educated states in the country. Workers with limited education and who are out of work generally have a harder time getting back to work. For instance, just 20.3% of Arkansas residents had at least a bachelor’s degree, lower than all but two other states. An estimated 31.6% of SSDI recipients in Arkansas had musculoskeletal system disease in December 2011, more than any other state except for Alabama. Meanwhile, more than 9% of recipients had diseases involving the circulatory system, higher than all but six other states.

1. West Virginia
> Pct. of working age population with benefits: 9.0%
> Pct. with recurring neck and back pain: 39.0% (the highest)
> 2011 labor force participation rate: 54.1% (the lowest)
> 2011 unemployment rate: 7.8% (23rd lowest)

No state had a higher percentage of working age people receiving SSDI benefits than West Virginia. In addition, the benefits received from by the federal government were more generous compared to most states. The average monthly benefit of more than $1,140 in 2011 was the 10th highest of all states. Almost 21% of recipients received monthly benefits of at least $1,600, a higher percentage than all but three states. Like most states on this list, West Virginia is among the less-educated states in the country. Just 18.5% of the adult population had a bachelor’s degree, the lowest percentage of all states. Also, few residents in the state had jobs. Just 54.1% of residents were considered part of the labor force in 2011, by far the lowest percentage of any state in the nation.

Look at the unemployment and poverty rates, above. Terrible. Yet, these people keep voting for pro-business rich Republicans, who do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for these poor people. No benefits, no jobs, nothing.

EXCEPT: Religious freedom and "small government."

That's pretty much set in stone as their highest priority. AND, they keep waiting for the magic day that Big Business finally farts out the special "trickle down" jobs from On High. Which of course is never going to happen.

The sad thing? The Democrats ain't giving them any jobs, either.

You look at big cities that have been under Democratic control for more than 50 years, and the poverty levels there are just as high for minorities and the Dems ain't done SHIT for those people, either, yet they keep getting voted back in.

[onthewall2983]

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/donald-trump-congress-republicans-232800

[allegro]

Nobody will "go first?"

What about McCain? (http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/18/politics/john-mccain-russia-hacking/)

Lindsey Graham said he won't support Trump's immigration policies. (http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/graham-trump-defense-issues)

It's early, Trump isn't even President, yet. Wait until he starts really fucking up.

The current "Trump and his henchmen" narrative is pretty scary, though.

[implanted_microchip]

I hate when stereotypes are true, but I have yet to encounter a single Trump follower or voter that isn't a complete fuckin' moron or troll. Are there normal, reasonable, or intelligent people who voted for Donald Trump? Do they exist?

I know a couple of people who voted for him simply on the basis of, "I dislike a lot of what he is and represents, but he supports term limits for Congress and that would change everything," which I know is still pretty stupid -- no way, no how that he A) actually cares or B) is actually capable of making that happen, but still, it's at least not from a place of utter insanity, just idealistic blindness, I guess. Several simply disliked Hillary and had bought into conspiracies that much ("Benghazi!" has come up frequently as a reason, regardless of arguments in that arena).

Many had the attitude of "We need a leader that seems stronger than Obama has; he's been too measured and not stood up to other nations enough." While that claim is highly, highly debatable, Trump most definitely is the "Strong Man" archetype in that regard (even though, you know, plenty of liberals hated Hillary for seeming too hawkish and trigger-happy).

They're not all racist, crazy lunatics, by any measure, many just could not stand the idea of a Hillary presidency or bought into enough of Trump's bullshit to look past the rest.

However, most that I know do actually embody the stereotype. It's pretty terrifying.

[allegro]

I know several Trump voters who voted for him primarily because he's a billionaire businessman with big-shot ideas and they're totally enamored by that whole Golddigger thing. He has a private jumbo jet and a helicopter with the TRUMP name emblazoned on the side, several mansions, he's their Rock Star Billionaire, somehow he's gonna Show Us How It's Done and Make A$merica Grea$t Again $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yet, the wealthy people I know think he's a gauche clown.

[Jinsai]

@Jinsai (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=272) - use a damn adblocker. That shit is an outright security issue these days. The ads you are going to continue to see will be in the "low intelligence" variety because those are the ads most clicked on (it's automatically rebalanced usually), because those are the types of viewers who still don't have an adblocker turned on.

I realize I am encouraging you to help speed up this downward spiral, but my primary point is that those ads are indicative of the lower intelligence demographic.

Naturally, but I keep abreast of this sort of thing out of concern for how the low info vote is being steered. But this? I don't click these things, but Jesus, I can't believe I'm seeing an open attack celebration on a toddler. That is disgusting.


I know several Trump voters who voted for him primarily because he's a billionaire businessman with big-shot ideas and they're totally enamored by that whole Golddigger thing. He has a private jumbo jet and a helicopter with the TRUMP name emblazoned on the side, several mansions, he's their Rock Star Billionaire, somehow he's gonna Show Us How It's Done and Make A$merica Grea$t Again $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yet, the wealthy people I know think he's a gauche clown.

You have no idea what kind of personal hell I've just been through... accepting the concept of a job from Trump supporters, bolstering the idea that they liked him despite his appeals to bigotry because "he's going to bring back American jobs and help vets."

I watched this business option dissolve in the snake oil and the giant insulting waste of time it was... I had my warning from the start, but I didn't just walk away then, and wasted my time.

Everyone knows he is a clown. I don't think that's truly settled in yet though. We have a clown for president. This isn't the Fool from King Lear. This is just a fool. I'm sick of hearing defenses or encouragements to "give him a chance." NO. He's already lost that chance with his first appointments.

[allegate]

Loved the headlines today from Newt, "It's not so much drain the swamp anymore as we're living in the swamp. Get used to it. Oh and don't look up the definition of lickspittle, it'd just embarrass me."

[allegate]

Basically what I've been thinking for a few weeks now:
High-level identity politics is hopeless, she thinks, when trying to counter a right-wing message that is clear and brutal.“They say it’s the voice of the liberal elite – but call a spade a spade: a lot of the time, it’s just academic writing. What the right wing managed to do, both here and in America, was get beyond all of that, put things into simple messaging. A lot of the time it was bullshit, but apparently now that doesn’t matter.” She jabs at the picture of Trump again.
“Obviously we underestimated how angry white men are,” she says. “All forms of bigotry – whether it’s homophobia, miso­gyny, racism – are about fear of being in the minority. And if you hold the majority position – ie, white males throughout his­tory – you fear losing control. We need to find ways to make people feel like they aren’t losing control.”
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/charlotte-church-we-underestimated-how-angry-white-men-are

Helping everyone doesn't help anyone when person a hates person b and would do anything to spite him, even if it involves spiting himself.

[WorzelG]

Jesus Christ, now Trump is posting ambiguously worded tweets about expanding nuclear capability and people 'coming to their senses about nukes'. This is a president ffs. It's making me give less of a fuck about Brexit because I think armageddon will be upon us before article 50 is invoked.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/811977223326625792

[Khrz]

Jesus Christ, now Trump is posting ambiguously worded tweets about expanding nuclear capability and people 'coming to their senses about nukes'. This is a president ffs. It's making me give less of a fuck about Brexit because I think armageddon will be upon us before article 50 is invoked.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/811977223326625792


To be fair, it sometimes feels like the actual armageddon will arrive before article 50 is invoked!

[allegro]

Jesus Christ, now Trump is posting ambiguously worded tweets about expanding nuclear capability
It's not a new concept (http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/02/obamas-trillion-dollar-nuclear-weapons-gamble/104217/). More here (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/22/us/us-ramping-up-major-renewal-in-nuclear-arms.html?_r=0). To be fair, it's primarily a modernization project. Our nuclear warheads are ancient and dangerous. The underground stations that run them are operated by giant outdated computers backed up on giant floppy discs.

[Dra508]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/22/506629695/trump-team-asks-state-dept-to-name-those-working-on-gender-equality

Why? Why? What the fuckiety fuck why?

[DF118]

It's not a new concept (http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/02/obamas-trillion-dollar-nuclear-weapons-gamble/104217/). More here (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/22/us/us-ramping-up-major-renewal-in-nuclear-arms.html?_r=0). To be fair, it's primarily a modernization project. Our nuclear warheads are ancient and dangerous. The underground stations that run them are operated by giant outdated computers backed up on giant floppy discs.

Mandating nuclear policy on fucking Twitter however, is.

[allegro]

Mandating nuclear policy on fucking Twitter however, is.

Heh true BUT HE IS NOT PRESIDENT, yet.

Let's see if they take his toy away after the Inauguration.

[allegro]

Trump corrected this. Newt misinterpreted or something.
Trump is still all about DTS
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/811975049431416832

LOL OH bullshit

[Deepvoid]

It's not a new concept (http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2015/02/obamas-trillion-dollar-nuclear-weapons-gamble/104217/). More here (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/22/us/us-ramping-up-major-renewal-in-nuclear-arms.html?_r=0). To be fair, it's primarily a modernization project. Our nuclear warheads are ancient and dangerous. The underground stations that run them are operated by giant outdated computers backed up on giant floppy discs.

Trump: "Let them be an arm race (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN14B1ZZ)"

I'm not sure Trump is talking about replacing floppy disks when he says "expending" the nuclear arsenal.

[elevenism]

Yeah this "let it be an arms race" is a LITTLE FUCKING DISTURBING to wake up to 48 hours before xmas morning.

[allegate]

Trump corrected this. Newt misinterpreted or something.
Trump is still all about DTS
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/811975049431416832
http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-Jennifer-Lawrence-ok-sarcastic-satisfied-skeptical-sure-whatever-yeah-yeah-right-GIF.gif

[Louie_Cypher]

i think trump should start accompanying his tweet with dramtic reality show sound effects https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HV1RVK4j6c
-louie

[allegro]

Trump: "Let them be an arm race (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN14B1ZZ)"

I'm not sure Trump is talking about replacing floppy disks when he says "expending" the nuclear arsenal.

I wasn't talking about Trump; I was talking about OBAMA via THE LINKS I POSTED. OBAMA expanded the nuclear arms program by a trillion dollars. Russia has more (and newer) nukes than us.

Not that I don't think Trump is a dick for tweeting stupid shit (or tweeting AT ALL, he needs to have his account removed).

[elevenism]

"Oh, fuck the bullshit, let's have a nuclear war. We'll win it, lemme tell ya! AND NORTH KOREA'S GONNA PAY FOR IT!"

Yeah of course Obama has been QUIETLY working on our nuclear capabilities. QUIETLY. lololololol
Chosing words CAREFULLY.

I swear to god, this motherfucker here (trump i mean.)

At the same time, i can hardly wait to see what he says and does next!

[allegro]

White House fails to make case that Russian hackers tampered with election

http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/12/did-russia-tamper-with-the-2016-election-bitter-debate-likely-to-rage-on/


I'm surprised to see ars post this, they had been pretty pro-hillary. There is this rhetoric that only Trump people are skeptical of the "russia tampered with the election" narrative, but it's bullshit. Plenty in the tech industry are skeptical. Sanders people are skeptical. It seems like the believers are primarily pro-hillary people and even that is starting to crumble a bit.

Kind of sad. The DNC establishment, yet again, conjures up a red scare. This time it seems to be for the purpose of allowing them to not change the direction of the DNC after having so much corruption exposed.

I don't think anybody believes that the Russians "tampered with the election," since that is absolutely not true; to do that, they would have had to "tamper" with ballot boxes, or voting machines, etc., and nobody has accused them of having done that. Instead, the Russians TRIED to INFLUENCE the elections. They needn't have been successful to be guilty.

"Red Scare" was based on Communism and the USSR, neither of which currently exist in Russia. Our problems with Putin are far different than those of the Cold War.

McAfee has talked about this a lot, how we are so stupid and arrogant with our security that the "end game" will be Russia or China totally taking us off our grid, and fucking it up so bad that it causes chaos for an undetermined time. The East Coast Blackout was fucking NUTS. I know because I WAS IN IT. Since that time, I changed my view of minimum things we need around the house.

This shit with Russia has NOTHING to do with the DNC. Even REPUBLICANS wanted more sanctions against Russia.

House Speaker Paul Ryan, 2 days ago:

"Russia does not share America’s interests. In fact, it has consistently sought to undermine them, sowing dangerous instability around the world. While today’s action by the administration is overdue, it is an appropriate way to end eight years of failed policy with Russia. And it serves as a prime example of this administration's ineffective foreign policy that has left America weaker in the eyes of the world."

[Louie_Cypher]

i don't know i read 35 pages of f.b.i. document's that made a damn good case, the donald will do what any con man would distract, send out a outragerous tweet. "look over there we're are your tax returns how are you divesting you're holdings?
-louie

[Bachy]

Trump's "Happy New Year" tweet is nothing more than him doing this. God, he's such a baby.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/9e68f524deea706ee0ce751f56ee5d11/tumblr_inline_no58qcY6681r2l3lc_500.gif

[Louie_Cypher]

disorrient distract, take the money and run
where are you're tax return's how are you divesting your business's?
-louie

[Wolfkiller]

I don't think anybody believes that the Russians "tampered with the election," since that is absolutely not true; to do that, they would have had to "tamper" with ballot boxes, or voting machines, etc., and nobody has accused them of having done that. Instead, the Russians TRIED to INFLUENCE the elections.

https://today.yougov.com/news/2016/12/27/belief-conspiracies-largely-depends-political-iden/


Half of Clinton’s voters think Russia even hacked the Election Day votes (only 9% of Trump voters give that any credibility at all).

[allegro]

I wasn't talking about VOTERS. A shitload of Trump voters think that Adam and Eve were REAL PEOPLE. Ugh.

I have read the security data from experts, not the fucking CIA or FBI.

I dealt with the FBI many years ago when they didn't know what an IP address in a header was. They've hopefully gotten smarter since then. Probably NOT. They were hacked by the fucking Chinese. Trump sure hasn't gotten any smarter. And Trump Jesus influences his Genesis-believing Facebook supporters (the ones who think that global warming is a conspiracy). This whole thing is a dangerous clusterfuck and people are pointing political fingers and I'm actually scared about what is going to happen next. Trump just tweeted probably the smartest thing of all, said don't communicate anything via computer ever if you expect security. He's right.

See this: https://theintercept.com/2016/12/29/top-secret-snowden-document-reveals-what-the-nsa-knew-about-previous-russian-hacking/

ON THE OTHER HAND, McAfee says the Chinese did it and he could be right, too (because he's John Fucking McAfee) (omg he is so hot babe hot tub magnet lol):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwEmbFPDBA

[allegate]

Ethics, who needs 'em anyway.

[theimage13]

Republicans vote to dismantle the Office of Congressional Ethics

Democrats lose their shit and start yapping sarcastically about draining the swamp

Trump tweets about how this is a stupid thing for GOP to do.

Republicans unanimously pull the plan.


http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/02/politics/office-of-congressional-ethics-oversight-of-ethics-committee-amendment/

I don't think you understand what "sarcasm" means. There's nothing sarcastic about that in this context...

[Exocet]

I agree that the Democrats have been fucking mentally unhinged recently with regards to Russia.

i dont think Russia did much in this election, except maybe spam comment sections on the New York times etc.

However...i do think people like Glenn Greenwald have somewhat played down Russias agenda....in this case he is right to clear Russias name somewhat...but its not going to make the problem go away....


Maybe there was not much Russian foul play here...but there IS a major Russian cyber threat..the group Fancy Bear..it nearly destroyed a French media company recently, they basically shut the internet off in Estonia for 24 hours a few years ago.

[Exocet]

It might just be paranoia...Edward Snowden is in Moscow....Greenwald is the one who helped reveal the whole NSA case to the world.
Sometimes you wonder if there is something else going on. He has been soft on Putin.
Maybe its nothing.
But its just this denial of a Russian threat which worries me.

Its not like the cold war....the democrats are MENTAL and want a war....but its just being aware...Russia is not an ally at the same time
dont go too soft on it either.

[Sutekh]

Exocet Google Fukuyama trump putin

Rand corporation aren't exactly a lefty think tank so it makes for interesting reading

[Deepvoid]

It might just be paranoia...Edward Snowden is in Moscow....Greenwald is the one who helped reveal the whole NSA case to the world.
Sometimes you wonder if there is something else going on. He has been soft on Putin.
Maybe its nothing.
But its just this denial of a Russian threat which worries me.

Its not like the cold war....the democrats are MENTAL and want a war....but its just being aware...Russia is not an ally at the same time
dont go too soft on it either.

I've recently stopped following Greenwald on Twitter. He's been annoying as fuck lately.

[Louie_Cypher]

this is about oil and access to it
-louie

[Swykk]

When do Dump supporters start feeling stupid? Is it now? http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/04/investing/jay-clayton-sec-trump/index.html

Nah. They'll never actually admit they got duped though earlier today I had a hillbilly on Facebook actually tell me "Ignorance is bliss." and it was the most honest I've seen a Trump voter be. Couldn't even get mad at it. Yep. For them it is. Until they don't have Social Security and Medicare. I think even they will notice when that goes bye bye.

[Your Name Here]

Swykk I say give it about 10 months when the economy collapses and the housing market bottoms out and all the Gump supporters will be trying to figure out a way to blame it on Obama.

[Louie_Cypher]

When do Dump supporters start feeling stupid? Is it now? http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/04/investing/jay-clayton-sec-trump/index.html

Nah. They'll never actually admit they got duped though earlier today I had a hillbilly on Facebook actually tell me "Ignorance is bliss." and it was the most honest I've seen a Trump voter be. Couldn't even get mad at it. Yep. For them it is. Until they don't have Social Security and Medicare. I think even they will notice when that goes bye bye. turns out there's a comic book with trump https://www.google.com/search?q=swamp+thing&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA8pjcuKnRAhUL2IMKHUofCGcQ_AUICCgB&biw=576&bih=293#imgrc=Z8PtjD7PcMTFRM%3A

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/816727208538542080

McConnell: "The American people simply will not tolerate" Democrats blocking Trump's SCOTUS nominee

The unmitigated gall of these people.

[Jinsai]

and that's all great to consider in hindsight on a strategic level, but... maybe the reason the FBI didn't 'request' access to these servers is because they didn't feel the need to ask for access to something they already (dun dun dunnnnnnn) had access to.

Either way, the manner in which this discussion is escalating between the DNC and RNC regarding Russia's potential involvement is incredibly disturbing, and I do NOT understand how some people are arguing that it's a "good thing" that Trump and Putin "get along."

[Substance242]

2017 travel guide. ;-)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BO2kC9flOqD/?taken-by=theoatmeal

[Deepvoid]

Donald Trump tweets: Julian Assange said "a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta" - why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!

Then he tweets: The dishonest media likes saying that I am in Agreement with Julian Assange - wrong. I simply state what he states, it is for the people to make up their own minds as to the truth. The media lies to make it look like I am against "Intelligence" when in fact I am a big fan!

If you're gonna quote Assange saying the Russians didn't do it, it's reasonable to interpret this as a support of this position. Of course it's not what he literally said but this is why his usage of Twitter is ridiculous, especially for these things.
You cannot comment on such important issues with 140 characters.

John Stewart picked the worst time to retire.

[allegro]

Senators Bernie Sanders, Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are organizing a National Day of Action on Jan 15 to get Pres. Elect Trump to stick to his promise about not cutting Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid.

https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/161222-Dear-Colleague-Health-Care-SIGNED.pdf

I've signed at least three petitions so far.


I really wonder if this is "rally" is gonna be a success.

[Deepvoid]

Paul Ryan just said that they will defund Planned Parenthood in the same reconciliation bill that will repeal the ACA. (https://www.buzzfeed.com/lissandravilla/speaker-paul-ryan-says-house-will-vote-to-defund-planned-par?bftwnews&utm_term=.flvz13lP5#.ktEnrNA1G)

[allegate]

Good. Great. Rip that Band-Aid off. Hell, take PBS while you're at it; lord knows they're not helping anyone.

[Deepvoid]

Am I the only one thinks the Republicans are going to significantly change the political and social landscape of the US over the course of the next 4 ...dare I say 8 years?

They seem on a mission to torpedo anything that has the label "liberal" or "progressive" attached to it.

[ziltoid]

Is there any validity to these claims in this article?
It seems to me that this article is far fetched and trying to stir the pot to incite anger.
http://usuncut.news/2017/01/05/breaking-more-than-50-trump-electors-illegitimate-can-be-challenged-details/

[allegro]

Paul Ryan just said that they will defund Planned Parenthood in the same reconciliation bill that will repeal the ACA. (https://www.buzzfeed.com/lissandravilla/speaker-paul-ryan-says-house-will-vote-to-defund-planned-par?bftwnews&utm_term=.flvz13lP5#.ktEnrNA1G)

Trump has said that he isn't against PP's other women's healthcare services that they provide, so he may veto this portion. The Federal government's money toward PP already does not pay for abortions, it pays for all other women's healthcare services.

[allegate]

Trump has said that he isn't against PP's other women's healthcare services that they provide, so he may veto this portion. The Federal government's money toward PP already does not pay for abortions, it pays for all other women's healthcare services.

I know that, you know that, but the people who care about these things only see "they pay for abortions".
Am I the only one thinks the Republicans are going to significantly change the political and social landscape of the US over the course of the next 4 ...dare I say 8 years?

They seem on a mission to torpedo anything that has the label "liberal" or "progressive" attached to it.

Longer than that, I would hazard.

[allegro]

I know that, you know that, but the people who care about these things only see "they pay for abortions".
Well, right, and dumping giant aborted babies in alleys or selling off harvested aborted baby parts blah blah blah

[Louie_Cypher]

watch the comming news cycle Democrats are eagerly awaiting the confirmation hearings. Tillerson’s close ties to Russia (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rex-tillerson-meets-lawmakers_us_586d8dd7e4b0c4be0af2e042) and Sessions’ fitness for office (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-attorney-general-jeff-sessions-racist-remarks_us_582cd73ae4b099512f80c0c2), in particular, are two issues they hope will generate noise and endanger a nomination. But these potential conflicts may not matter, even if they spur a memorable exchange. It’s likely the public will be easily distracted from negative headlines given the sheer amount of news happening all at once. Like drinking water from a fire hose, the GOP schedule will overload consumers of news and the press alike.
-louie

[Louie_Cypher]

great guide to print and ditributeFUT https://www.indivisibleguide.com/
-louie

[Louie_Cypher]

did or did not the swamp king invite russia to hack the D.N.C. you'll have to go back a way's it was the last time the "con-old" held a press coferance - July last year
-louie