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hellospaceboy
07-23-2016, 01:48 PM
I'm from Hungary, which is a European Union member... I'm so stoked to be in the USA right now! I mean, the EU is the real shitshow if you're looking for one! I survived 7 years of Bush, I can do 4 years of Trump if I have to (please god, 8?!?! not so sure)

allegro
07-23-2016, 01:59 PM
I'm from Hungary, which is a European Union member... I'm so stoked to be in the USA right now! I mean, the EU is the real shitshow if you're looking for one! I survived 7 years of Bush, I can do 4 years of Trump if I have to (please god, 8?!?! not so sure)

Watching Kaine in Miami right now, he is doing a great job at making people feel a lot more positive, that's for sure.

aw, man, and they ended it with this song, GOOSEBUMPS!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBNUkTUehnc

Jinsai
07-23-2016, 02:07 PM
again, to frame the potential devastation properly, this isn't about four or eight years of this motherfucker, it's about the supreme court seats.

allegro
07-23-2016, 02:12 PM
again, to frame the potential devastation properly, this isn't about four or eight years of this motherfucker, it's about the supreme court seats.

Well, and it's about his using his position to profit from it with his businesses, really. It's unprecedented. I used to think he was fairly harmless, but then that Federal Judgegate thing completely changed my mind, the guy has NO idea about the importance of the separation of powers and when he supposedly intends not even to attend to any Presidential matters and leave that all to a VP while he just "makes America Great Again" probably by making Trump Enterprises More Great while turning the Oval Office into an extension of Trump Enterprises, then we have problems. He also has some current lawsuits pending, which is also unprecedented.

And his leaving Pence to decide the SCOTUS seats? Mr. Evangelical?

allegro
07-23-2016, 02:23 PM
Note that Trump is already pulling some weird shit by having the "family friend / Trump Organization speechwriter (http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/20/politics/meredith-mciver-who-melania-trump-speech/)" write speeches and paying her from his campaign fund which is evidently illegal (cannot co-mingle funds).

The speechwriter's letter is on Trump Organization letterhead. (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/07/20/meredithstatement.pdf)

Jinsai
07-23-2016, 02:57 PM
here's an incredible article people should read... it could be summarized as "why it's not hyperbolic to call Trump a fucking fascist" but it goes deeper, and we've got a few dark months ahead of us staring at the abyss (http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/being-honest-about-trump)

thevoid99
07-23-2016, 03:34 PM
It's becoming very frustrating, that's for sure. G and I want to move near @marodi (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=125) and @Deepvoid (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=676) . We can learn FRENCH!

I was watching the live feed of Clinton and Kaine online and the comments section is running in the side screen and Kaine spoke some Spanish, the crowd went nuts, and in the comments people are saying 'WE SPEAK ENGLISH IN THE COUNTRY!" and "THE PEOPLE WHO SPEAK SPANISH NEED TO GO HOME" and stupid shit like that. Fucking Trump Trolls.

Btw, he lived in Honduras for a year when he took time off from law school to help Jesuit missionaries, so that's how he learned Spanish. Interesting. It isn't perfect Spanish but it's better than my retired boss' Spanish:

"Si, bring su es-SPOUSE-a to la officina del abogado con el deniro en la maņana"

My dad wants to vote for Hilary and thinks Kaine is a good person for Clinton as it has to do with the fact that Kaine lived in Honduras which is where my parents from. I don't know.... I'm not sure if I want to vote for Hilary as I'm definitely not voting that Fascist Fuck-face.

allegro
07-23-2016, 04:08 PM
New York Magazine: The Case for Tim Kaine (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/07/case-for-tim-kaine.html#)

Frozen Beach
07-23-2016, 04:53 PM
http://i.imgur.com/ZLhAS9a.jpg
lol

Mantra
07-23-2016, 05:10 PM
When he's not talking about wanting to fuck his daughter

wait, what?​

allegro
07-23-2016, 05:49 PM
wait, what?​

Yeah, it's kind of an ongoing thing in the media (http://www.mediaite.com/online/donald-trump-wont-stop-joking-about-banging-his-daughter/).

Mantra
07-23-2016, 06:01 PM
Yeah, it's kind of an ongoing thing in the media (http://www.mediaite.com/online/donald-trump-wont-stop-joking-about-banging-his-daughter/).

wow, how did i miss this?

I'm surprised nobody tried to make attack ads out of those clips. Seems like Cruz would have been all over that. "Do you want this sick pervert to be your next president? *roll clip*"

Frozen Beach
07-23-2016, 06:27 PM
http://abc7news.com/news/sanders-camp-says-someone-must-be-accountable-for-what-dnc-emails-show/1440084/ (http://abc7news.com/news/sanders-camp-says-someone-must-be-accountable-for-what-dnc-emails-show/1440084/)

Harry Seaward
07-23-2016, 06:42 PM
wait, what?​



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7yf8-Lk80

That's just one of the many times he's expressed this opinion.

“Yeah, she’s really something, and what a beauty, that one. If I weren’t happily married and, ya know, her father . . . ”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/donald-trump-wont-stop-joking-about-banging-his-daughter/

EDIT: Oops, I missed the last page of this thread before I posted, didn't notice this had already been answered.

Jinsai
07-23-2016, 08:34 PM
It bears repeating.. So fucking gross

Jinsai
07-24-2016, 01:41 AM
lol Tim Kane.
Progressive get shit on again by Hillary. Guess a ton of Bernie voters will definitely be voting for Greens and Libertarians.

And this is the problem. People need to remember that supreme court seats are at stake here! This isn't a time to "protest vote!"
Jill Stein is playing (the shittiest sounding) violin while America burns.

Right now things are dangerous. If you're voting third-party in this election, you're an asshole. If you're Jill Stein, sorry, I hate you now. Now's not the time to play "protest vote" with your parents. You really want a third party? Change the system!!!! Change the goddamn system! Instant Runoff Voting! Push for that, you fucking idiot! Pushing to change the fucked up way our voting process works is way more productive than placing a protest-vote for a candidate you know has no chance of winning

IF you really want to see a third party candidate have a chance, push for a change in our electoral system to respect instant runoff voting. Otherwise, shut the fuck up. You don't know what you're talking about, and you're empowering Trump. Shut up.


Kill us all and elect trump.Or get smart. I'm sorry, I'm just reading too many "yay, I'm voting for Jill!" posts, and my sanity is slipping

Too much smug millennial bullshit for one day. I can't handle it. Kids, you're adorable, but you're wrong, you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, and I won't say "I told you so." I'll just hate you. And one day, you'll understand.

edit: and just to clarify, this rant is not directed personally at anyone on this board.

hellospaceboy
07-24-2016, 12:03 PM
People who say they'll vote third party piss me off too!!!

Not because the 2 party system isn't shitty, or because there wouldn't be room for a third party, but...

How about not trying to build a third party on the general presidential elections? I mean, maybe not start it on the highest fuckin' office in the country?!?! If you're serious, here's an idea: why don't you build a third party in the four years between general elections? Ha! Start bottom up, school board and mosquito control and actually do the work. And no, it won't happen in 4 years, but maybe in 8, or 12, if you keep pushing and organizing then it might be a healthier three party system.

People who say that there's no difference between Trump and Hillary are delusional. People said the same thing about Al Gore and Bush (my wife cast a protest third party vote, in Florida... ouch!) but I guarantee you that if Al Gore was the president we would have never invaded Iraq!

Jinsai
07-24-2016, 01:10 PM
if you want a plausible scenario for a third party candidate, you need a change in our election system. We would need Instant Runoff Voting, and I'm all for that, but until we have it, Jill Stein, GTFO of here. There's a time and a place for the "protest vote," It's not now.

Sarah K
07-24-2016, 02:42 PM
Not because the 2 party system isn't shitty, or because there wouldn't be room for a third party, but...

How about not trying to build a third party on the general presidential elections? I mean, maybe not start it on the highest fuckin' office in the country?!?! If you're serious, here's an idea: why don't you build a third party in the four years between general elections? Ha! Start bottom up, school board and mosquito control and actually do the work. And no, it won't happen in 4 years, but maybe in 8, or 12, if you keep pushing and organizing then it might be a healthier three party system.

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/07/19/24362128/dan-savage-on-jill-stein-just-no

Sallos
07-24-2016, 02:44 PM
Gary Johnson is apparently polling at 12% at the moment, gaining an additional 3%, given the current candidates is a very reasonable possibility, if he would make into the debates i wouldn't be at all surprised if he became a legitimate contender, coupled with the fact that both the other candidates have a huge disapproval rating.

implanted_microchip
07-24-2016, 03:03 PM
Johnson, if endorsed by Romney, could very easily win in Utah. He has no real shot at actually winning the election and more than anything is a way to siphon votes off from one of the main two candidates. Judging by his recent article he wrote that fixated entirely on Trump and didn't even mention Clinton, it's safe to say he'll be doing more to appeal to NeverTrumpers than those who loathe Hillary.

All I want is for Donald Trump to not win. That's it. I support Hillary heavily but at the end of the day literally anyone but Donald would be someone I'd prefer to him. He is an authoritarian who Putin supports who has regularly spoke against freedom of press, openly denies climate change at every opportunity he is given, revels in his own hypocrisy, gives zero clear policy or plans but hawks insane and radical ideas to people 24/7, cites imaginary and insane statistics to fuel his police state rhetoric, who has actually said that a woman getting a career is "a dangerous thing," has consistently advocated for torture and violations of human rights, who would appoint Supreme Court Justices that would keep people like me from getting married and would help tear down any social progress we've made during the Obama administration. He has awakened a large amount of dormant racism and xenophobia that has previously not had anyone quite as clear of a supporter as he is and it is absolutely disturbing. It's genuinely terrifying seeing the support he has and the movement he is giving legitimacy to. Chris Christie's RNC speech and the audience's reaction bordered on a motherfucking lynching.

People who vote third party or don't vote at all are only hoping Trump this election. Anyone who wants to simplify and reduce this to the childish, 15 year old anarchist speech of "THEY'RE BASICALLY THE SAME!" is just ignoring reality and supporting the rise of someone who will fuck things up worse than we've seen in any of our lifetimes. The basic level of discourse and intellect in this nation is at stake with this guy. We can elect somebody who actually talks about policy and behaves and speaks like a rational, intelligent adult or we can go with someone who says things like "I'd consult with myself first of all, because I have a very good brain and I've said a lot of things." I went to a Hillary rally recently and the stark fucking difference in tone, discourse and general demeanor was night and day. It's not even just politics or left or right, it's downright decency vs. insanity.

Donald Trump doesn't represent fiscal responsibility, or small government, or any value conservatism is "supposed" to be about. He doesn't represent respect of the constitution and he doesn't represent "law and order." He's an authoritarian, plain and simple, strictly interested in holding as much power as possible and filling the hole in his heart that will never be full for long enough, because his entire value system is built around a Bret Easton Ellis, American Psycho-style set of capitalistic morality. The guy seriously feels straight off the page of one of that guy's novels. If you can look at that and really tell me that it's just not even close to bad enough to go Democrat even if the Democratic ticket isn't everything you'd want, then I don't know what to tell you.

The GOP is now calling coal "clean energy" and Trump's going on and on about mining for more of it. He flat-out does not care about anything at all besides himself and doesn't have any remote concern for democracy, our government, our environment, the lives of minorities or even majorities, our allies or our agreements. He wouldn't defend NATO nations unless they were "giving us enough." That's flat-out extortion of foreign nations. He's as dangerous as anyone who has ever run for the presidency, and he could absolutely win it. Republicans aren't going to be so wishy-washy in voting for him. "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line" seems awfully true right about now.

It's sickening and it's maddening watching people still cling to this dangerous idealism that will lead us right into a Trump/Pence administration. Chris Christie and Newt Gingrich DO NOT need to have any major power in this nation, and they absolutely will if he wins. Newt Gingrich has flat out said in direct terms that he wants the House of Un-American Activities brought back, and there are people who can look at that possible future and then at Hillary and actually say "$hillary won't be any better!!! Can't wait for President Stein!"? Really?

I outright have nightmares about watching CNN on November 8th and seeing them call it for Trump. It's horrifying. Everyone who refuses to vote Democrat or refuses to vote at all will be directly responsible for it if it happens. This election isn't a lock and it never was going to be no matter who the Democratic nominee was. Donald Trump is utterly terrifying and the idea that people who are privileged enough to have nothing visibly at stake right now might cause us all to have him as our president because they just couldn't get over themselves is infuriating to me.

allegro
07-24-2016, 03:47 PM
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/07/19/24362128/dan-savage-on-jill-stein-just-no
A fucking men to that.

implanted_microchip
07-24-2016, 04:05 PM
So Donnie T. thinks we should join Somalia and North Korea and leave the World Trade Organization! I'm sure that would really make America great again

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-wto_us_5794c63de4b01180b52f4bed

Jinsai
07-24-2016, 04:06 PM
Gary Johnson is apparently polling at 12% at the moment, gaining an additional 3%, given the current candidates is a very reasonable possibility, if he would make into the debates i wouldn't be at all surprised if he became a legitimate contender, coupled with the fact that both the other candidates have a huge disapproval rating.

I'm willing to bet whatever odds you want that Gary Johnson does not become the 45th president of the United States.

Sallos
07-24-2016, 04:24 PM
I'm willing to bet whatever odds you want that Gary Johnson does not become the 45th president of the United States.

If he makes into the debates, which he'd most likely win and even if he didn't his unfavorable numbers would never compare to the others, he'd just might be able to split enough of the electoral college votes and make the House of Representatives select the next president, which i assume is how it works, if none the candidates have more than 50% of the electoral college. Once in the House, controlled by republicans, most of which do not want Trump, including the speaker, would pick Gary Johnson, they'd get a libertarian leading republican and democrats would also win by preventing a Trump presidency.

Unlikely? Very much, but this year has been full of surprises so one can dream.

Jinsai
07-24-2016, 04:36 PM
that's not how it works... but I would love to see people get really excited about Gary Johnson and I will be delighted to be his cheerleader. Go Gary! You can do it!

implanted_microchip
07-24-2016, 04:39 PM
controlled by republicans, most of which do not want Trump,

The RNC sure proved that that's not how they intend to operate, whether it's their first choice or not. They're going with Trump as far as they can.

Swykk
07-24-2016, 05:10 PM
I'd be excited about Wasserman-Schultz resigning except the damage was already done. Now the plan is stopping Trump. @Jinsai (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=272) nailed it in saying this is about SCOTUS seats. And also, civil rights, of course.

implanted_microchip
07-24-2016, 05:27 PM
I'd be excited about Wasserman-Schultz resigning except the damage was already done. Now the plan is stopping Trump. @Jinsai (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=272) nailed it in saying this is about SCOTUS seats. And also, civil rights, of course.

SCOTUS and not wrecking the economy by leaving the WTO and destroying our status as allies with members of NATO, encouraging racism and xenophobia and trying to treat all members of a religion of over 1.6 billion people as criminals until proven innocent and acting as if unlawful police shootings never happen, among many, many other things.

Trump is seriously a colossal disaster waiting to happen in every single way possible, just about, and you have people like him and the NRA just full-on imagining wild and unfounded claims like "Hillary wants to abolish the 2nd Amendment!" and "50% more cops were shot this year!" He's a modern-day Nixon and that's an insult to Nixon, even. It's horrifying.

aggroculture
07-24-2016, 06:09 PM
I totally understand why Hillary chose a centrist with some right wing tendencies for VP: progressives are stuck with voting for her, and I think most Sanders supporters will do the right thing and vote for her; it's moderate Republicans who hate Trump who she wants to woo.

That said, I think Michael Moore is kind of on the money about Trump winning: http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/

Frozen Beach
07-24-2016, 06:36 PM
I think most Sanders supporters will do the right thing and vote for her/ (http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/)
You must be joking, right? Not many Sanders supporters are going to want to vote for her since it's confirmed the primary was rigged by these email leaks. All that money raised by them was wasted and essentially pointless.

implanted_microchip
07-24-2016, 06:53 PM
You must be joking, right? Not many Sanders supporters are going to want to vote for her since it's confirmed the primary was rigged by these email leaks. All that money raised by them was wasted and essentially pointless.

The idea that because some members of the DNC were annoyed with Bernie's campaign and acted in ways they shouldn't have, that the majority of people who supported him would rather have Donald Trump as president is utterly bonkers if not frightening.

Frozen Beach
07-24-2016, 07:05 PM
The idea that because some members of the DNC were annoyed with Bernie's campaign and acted in ways they shouldn't have, that the majority of people who supported him would rather have Donald Trump as president is utterly bonkers if not frightening.
And the idea that people think his supporters are going to support the candidate the primaries were rigged for is absurd. The DNC essentially spat in these people's faces. I think the reality is a majority of these people are going to vote for 3rd party candidates or not vote at all, and yeah, I know 3rd party candidates have no chance. My point is: this election is fucked and our country is fucked. Now, I'm gonna get drunk and prepare for the worst.

Also, word on the internet is that wikileaks is going to leak documents that guarantee Hillary Clinton will be indicted.

implanted_microchip
07-24-2016, 07:14 PM
And the idea that people think his supporters are going to support the candidate the primaries were rigged for is absurd. The DNC essentially spat in these people's faces. I think the reality is a majority of these people are going to vote for 3rd party candidates or not vote at all, and yeah, I know 3rd party candidates have no chance. My point is: this election is fucked and our country is fucked. Now, I'm gonna get drunk and prepare for the worst.

Also, word on the internet is that wikileaks is going to leak documents that guarantee Hillary Clinton will be indicted.

Here's some worthwhile data:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/08/bernie-sanders-voters-will-support-hillary-clinton-en-masse-while-holding-their-noses/

Also, IIRC, Hillary's supporters were more rabidly against Obama for a time than Sanders' supporters are, and even then, they rallied around him when it came down to election day. And that was against John McCain, who looks so acceptable next to Donald Trump.

And anyone still holding out on the belief that Hillary will be indicted probably also thinks Sanders endorsed her because she's threatening his grandkids and that any day now we'll finally learned what really happened on 9/11.

Frozen Beach
07-24-2016, 07:19 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/08/bernie-sanders-voters-will-support-hillary-clinton-en-masse-while-holding-their-noses/

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/756993608855805954


And anyone still holding out on the belief that Hillary will be indicted probably also thinks Sanders endorsed her because she's threatening his grandkids and that any day now we'll finally learned what really happened on 9/11.
People mocked Sanders fans when they thought the primary was rigged. And as for whether Hillary would be indicted, it depends on the information.

Dra508
07-24-2016, 07:32 PM
Vast right wing conspiracy = concerted effort

elevenism
07-24-2016, 08:14 PM
And this is the problem. People need to remember that supreme court seats are at stake here! This isn't a time to "protest vote!"
Jill Stein is playing (the shittiest sounding) violin while America burns.

Right now things are dangerous. If you're voting third-party in this election, you're an asshole...
Now that's some top notch fiery rhetoric.
slightly offensive but highly effective.

elevenism
07-24-2016, 08:25 PM
Now.
As for my thoughts of late...
God forbid trump becomes president, but maybe it won't be as bad as we think.
The reason i think this is that i don't think trump understands shit about policy or politics and won't be running anything.
I believe he will have the most powerful cabinet in history.
And i imagine he will be surrounded and advised by fairly moderate people.
I think the hardcore right wing shit he is spouting is just to get ignorant rednecks in his corner. I doubt his administration would REALLY do ninety percent of the batshit crazy things he is proposing.

Have you guys heard the rumor that trump offered kasich the chance to be the most powerful vp in history? (http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2016/07/20/trumps-offer-to-kasich-to-be-running-mate-be-in-charge-of-both-domestic-foreign-policy.html)

Seriously, if this fucker bumbles his way into the white house, i feel certain that the people around him will keep him from falling into anything he could actually fuck up.
This is why i'm not that scared anymore.

also, allegro , i think i have learned what you told me a few months ago, that elections are not as scripted as i thought they were. "conspiracy theories are for hippies :P"

onthewall2983
07-24-2016, 08:35 PM
Have you guys heard the rumor that trump offered kasich the chance to be the most powerful vp in history? (http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2016/07/20/trumps-offer-to-kasich-to-be-running-mate-be-in-charge-of-both-domestic-foreign-policy.html)

Seriously, if this fucker bumbles his way into the white house, i feel certain that the people around him will keep him from falling into anything he could actually fuck up.
This is why i'm not that scared anymore.

Yeah but Mike Pence is a royal fuck-up and is now potentially being groomed to be the most powerful VP in history.

DigitalChaos
07-24-2016, 08:37 PM
Seriously, if this fucker bumbles his way into the white house, i feel certain that the people around him will keep him from falling into anything he could actually fuck up.
This is why i'm not that scared anymore.


And you just crushed the biggest selling points of both candidates. It's sad how many buy into it.

We need to vote for Trump because we should fear Hillary.

We need to vote for Hillary because we should fear Trump.

I'm not scared that our country can't survive 4 years of either of them. I think they'll both be bad. I'll be voting for who I think is actually good. I'll be voting for hope for the future, not fear.

DigitalChaos
07-24-2016, 08:40 PM
Debbie Wasserman Schultz steps down from DNC shortly after the DNC email leak that shows how fucked things are. Sanders people cheer. Moments later Hillary announces that she is hiring Schultz with loads of praise and no mention of the wrongdoing. Sanders people flip out.

Jinsai
07-24-2016, 09:14 PM
Goddamn it Hillary, it's like you're trying to lose this

DigitalChaos
07-24-2016, 09:34 PM
Goddamn it Hillary, it's like you're trying to lose this

The hiring of DWS shocked me. I figured HRC would appoint her somewhere after she is inaugurated. But to give her a job mere hours after the DNC email shitstorm and immediate resignation. I just don't get why.

You have a lot of the usuals, like Krugman, praising the DWS resignation. But there is silence on HRC giving her a job. I have seen no attempt to justify it yet. I really would be curious to see someone justify it. I'm betting it gets buried in the next wave of leaks that Assange has.

Jinsai
07-24-2016, 10:05 PM
Maybe she's banking on people not paying attention, which is a shit strategy in this age

allegro
07-24-2016, 11:05 PM
He's a modern-day Nixon and that's an insult to Nixon, even. It's horrifying.
Nixon was actually a big civil rights proponent, contrary to what people assume. Under Nixon, we had integration, busing, and he endorsed the ERA.

Re DWS, I assume it's because a shitload of Dems really like DWS and are willing to forgive her and just say she was a shitty DNC chair but it shouldn't wreck her entire career. Ultimately, little to none of it affected how we voted. The DNC can't manipulate voters. The "system" isn't rigged to hypnotize us. The alleged rigging that Sanders voters are bitching about would have fucked Clinton voters, too. But, for ALL KINDS OF REASONS, mostly for not filing enough suits in states where the VRA needs to be reinstated, she needed to resign. And "Honorary Chair" doesn't sound like a real job to me. But to be surprised that Brad Marshall or the DNC would dislike and look to undermine a lifelong non-Democrat running under the Democratic ticket? People are fucking SURPRISED by this? Give me a fucking break. It didn't WORK, as Sanders received MILLIONS of dollars and votes. But it's not some big fucking revelation that they were pissed at the Party Crasher.

elevenism
07-24-2016, 11:14 PM
goddamn, i need to catch up on news. i've actually taken a break from this circus here lately.

allegro
07-24-2016, 11:20 PM
Have you guys heard the rumor that trump offered kasich the chance to be the most powerful vp in history? (http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2016/07/20/trumps-offer-to-kasich-to-be-running-mate-be-in-charge-of-both-domestic-foreign-policy.html)
We covered this on Page 108 and laughed about it, not a rumor, it was in the NY Times.

implanted_microchip
07-24-2016, 11:50 PM
allegro he also if I remember right was cool about the environment, too. More than anything I compare them due to being corrupt and fixated on personal gain, as well as Trump's whole "law and order candidate" charade.

allegro
07-24-2016, 11:55 PM
allegro he also if I remember right was cool about the environment, too.
He was responsible for the EPA and NOAA. He got a bad rap. Go watch his famous "Checkers" speech from 1952 (his wife Pat had a nice cloth Republican coat, not a fur coat). He was not Trump. He deserves a better history than he got. When MLK was jailed, he and MLK were friends and Nixon nearly made a phone call to get King out of jail but thought it would come across as "grandstanding." JFK, meanwhile, had the FBI trailing King as a "troublemaker." Nixon tried to maintain order to control the rioting that was happening across the country, but he wasn't a tyrant. See this (http://nixonfoundation.org/10-policy-achievements.php).

thevoid99
07-25-2016, 12:07 AM
I liked Richard Nixon. I thought he had personality and was fun to watch.

allegro
07-25-2016, 12:11 AM
I liked Richard Nixon. I thought he had personality and was fun to watch.
Without his trip to China, I wouldn't be typing on this smartphone.

Anyway, I am SO stoked about the DNC this week.

I think the best speech is going to be Pres. Obama's.

Jinsai
07-25-2016, 01:10 AM
I'm not going to pretend to have a strong opinion on Nixon, because all of this happened before I was born... he seems like a shithead, and it seems like he intentionally prolonged the vietnam war to ensure his re-election, but I wasn't alive so what do I know.

All I know is that right now we're truly standing at the precipice. This is an historic moment. If we elect Trump, we have well and truly fucked up the world.

Mantra
07-25-2016, 01:18 AM
Politic has a great article about the internal politics in the DNC and how they decided to give DWS the boot. Apparently Obama has disliked her for years and wanted to dump her long ago, but didn't want to deal with the hassle. Sounds like her firing was a long time coming.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/debbie-wasserman-schultz-dnc-226100

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 02:02 AM
It's worth noting DWS is just in an "honorary" position for the Clinton campaign now, and it's wholly possible this was a deal to get her to resign. Obama wanted her gone in the past and she refused to leave and hasn't seemed interested in doing so at all. The whole thing is a mess but I wouldn't be shocked if that was the case at all, which would be understandable, if not ideal. Getting her out of the DNC ASAP after this leak would be a priority. No matter what, it's a mess, and one that never needed to happen. With the way the RNC went this was a great time for the Democratic party to look unified and strong and this does not help at all.

Also, supposedly Russia may be involved in the email hacks. Wouldn't be a shock considering Putin's love of Trump.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 02:11 AM
Also, supposedly Russia may be involved in the email hacks. Wouldn't be a shock considering Putin's love of Trump.
Wikileaks have denied it, but of course they're going to deny their source. One things for sure, Julian Assange hates Hillary. He'd probably be doing this no matter the source.
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/757095232039165952

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 02:13 AM
Wikileaks have denied it, but of course they're going to deny their source. One things for sure, Julian Assange hates Hillary. He'd probably be doing this no matter the source.
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/757095232039165952

He oppossed the Panama Papers since they made Russia look bad. He is far from unbiased.

Here's a good article on the leak:

http://nytimes.com/2016/07/25/us/politics/donald-trump-russia-emails.html?smid&referer=

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 02:24 AM
He oppossed the Panama Papers since they made Russia look bad.
From what I remember reading, he opposed them due to lack of transparency, claiming that 99% of the documents were censored.

And of course he's biased. He's definitely out for blood against Hillary.
edit: I've been looking around on the internet, and supposedly the hacker is "Guccifer 2.0". He claims to be from Romania, but some people claim he's Russian.
https://twitter.com/GUCCIFER_2

There's also claims he's simply a Russian cover up
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/guccifer-20-is-likely-a-russian-government-attempt-to-cover-up-their-own-hack

Here's some other articles relating to him
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dnc-hacker-guccifer-20-interview
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/why-does-dnc-hacker-guccifer-20-talk-like-this
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dnc-hacker-guccifer-20-denies-russian-link-says-attack-was-his-personal-project?trk_source=recommended
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/guccifer-2-claims-responsibility-for-dnc-email-dump?trk_source=recommended
http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/guccifer-2-0-2-two-wikileaks-dnc-emails-hack-breach-scandal-schultz-democratic-hillary-trump-putin-russia-bernie-sanders-mook-lazar-snowden-cnn-convention/
also, one thing I noticed, Wikileaks follows him on twitter.

allegro
07-25-2016, 06:17 AM
Man, this is crazy shit:

https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/

elevenism
07-25-2016, 08:10 AM
We covered this on Page 108 and laughed about it, not a rumor, it was in the NY Times.
yeah yeah yeah...
i haven't been around

allegro
07-25-2016, 09:04 AM
yeah yeah yeah...
i haven't been around
Well, you asked! :-)

Deepvoid
07-25-2016, 09:12 AM
Because at this point, we just need to have a good laugh about it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNdkrtfZP8I

aggroculture
07-25-2016, 09:51 AM
God forbid trump becomes president, but maybe it won't be as bad as we think.
The reason i think this is that i don't think trump understands shit about policy or politics and won't be running anything.
I believe he will have the most powerful cabinet in history.
And i imagine he will be surrounded and advised by fairly moderate people.
I think the hardcore right wing shit he is spouting is just to get ignorant rednecks in his corner. I doubt his administration would REALLY do ninety percent of the batshit crazy things he is proposing.

Have you read the GOP's latest party platform? Moderate is not the word you're looking for.
Aside from the shitty things Trump has said he will do, a Trump victory would further embolden the hard right to keep rolling back progress fought for and won ever since the 60s: women's rights, LGBTQ rights, the status of African Americans and Latinos and Muslims; we're going to see unions crushed even further, universities dismantled and turned even further into for-profit businesses, we're going to see more wealth disparity and wealth vacuumed upwards. (On this topic I suggest watching Chomsky's Requiem for the American Dream, it's on Netflix).
Yes it is true that the checks and balances of the state will put a break on some of the more outlandish things he's been saying, but the rightward lurch will occur, and it will be ugly.
The people who say that Trump will be "fun", it will be "fun" to watch the world burn: that's their privilege talking. For the vulnerable it will not be fun. It's not the billionaires Trump will be throwing to the lions, it's the people at the bottom and at the margins.

botley
07-25-2016, 10:32 AM
America is Born Again

elevenism
07-25-2016, 11:19 AM
Well, you asked! :-)
yes. and i guess it's been pretty well established that i'm too thin skinned.
i BARELY hang on here ;)

I found this to be interesting. (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-07-25/democrats-open-convention-on-a-sour-note) It's some yammering about the negativity of the democratic party.
I think that this is going to be the nastiest, mud slingin'est election season i've observed.

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 01:16 PM
Leaked DNC Documents Show Plans To Reward Big Donors With Federal Appointments (http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/24/leaked-dnc-documents-show-plans-to-reward-big-donors-with-federal-appointments/)


​But since Russian might be behind the leak, let's not talk about any of that!

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 01:21 PM
Have you read the GOP's latest party platform? Moderate is not the word you're looking for.
Aside from the shitty things Trump has said he will do, a Trump victory would further embolden the hard right to keep rolling back progress fought for and won ever since the 60s: women's rights, LGBTQ rights, the status of African Americans and Latinos and Muslims; we're going to see unions crushed even further, universities dismantled and turned even further into for-profit businesses, we're going to see more wealth disparity and wealth vacuumed upwards. (On this topic I suggest watching Chomsky's Requiem for the American Dream, it's on Netflix).
Yes it is true that the checks and balances of the state will put a break on some of the more outlandish things he's been saying, but the rightward lurch will occur, and it will be ugly.
The people who say that Trump will be "fun", it will be "fun" to watch the world burn: that's their privilege talking. For the vulnerable it will not be fun. It's not the billionaires Trump will be throwing to the lions, it's the people at the bottom and at the margins.

I still can't believe how little anyone's talking about the GOP outwardly stating that coal is a clean energy resource and that pornography is a public health crisis. "Moderate" is definitely a major misreading of what they're up to currently.

aggroculture
07-25-2016, 01:41 PM
Pornography, which kills 0 people a year = a public health crisis.
Guns, which kill 30000 people a year = let's make public research on that ILLEGAL. #GOPgoals

Actually "Killed by Porn" is a good name for a song, I might write it.

allegro
07-25-2016, 01:49 PM
Leaked DNC Documents Show Plans To Reward Big Donors With Federal Appointments (http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/24/leaked-dnc-documents-show-plans-to-reward-big-donors-with-federal-appointments/)


​But since Russian might be behind the leak, let's not talk about any of that!

The members of the DNC responsible for this shit could be in big legal trouble, but it doesn't appear to be pointing to Hillary Clinton, at all.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 03:11 PM
Poor Bernie getting booed by his own supporters when saying "We have go to elect Hillary Clinton". Lol. It's like so many of them actually have zero respect for him(insert "It isn't about Bernie, it's about his ideas, man"). This is the most bizarre election ever. I feel bad for him at this point. Created a monster that can't be controlled by anyone - himself included.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 04:28 PM
Poor Bernie getting booed by his own supporters when saying "We have go to elect Hillary Clinton". Lol. It's like so many of them actually have zero respect for him(insert "It isn't about Bernie, it's about his ideas, man"). This is the most bizarre election ever. I feel bad for him at this point. Created a monster that can't be controlled by anyone - himself included.
They raised 222 million dollars for him, which was wasted on a rigged primary. And he won't even disown the person the primary was rigged for. I'm sorry, but I think they have a right to be pissed off.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 04:37 PM
... were they seriously chanting "BERNIE" during the opening prayer?

Jesus motherfucking Christ. The RNC rallied around Trump so fast my head spun and the DNC is already off to a shitshow because people can't keep their heads together even through a prayer. Just, are you kidding me? I'm entirely non-religious but, good fuck, time and place. This is just childish and takes any points these people may have and makes them look totally worthless.

tony.parente
07-25-2016, 04:46 PM
Man the Democratic Party is the new GOP. Trump pretty much has this guaranteed after those emails got out, Hillary is way to unlikable at this point to even be considered.

allegro
07-25-2016, 04:46 PM
They raised 222 million dollars for him, which was wasted on a rigged primary. And he won't even disown the person the primary was rigged for. I'm sorry, but I think they have a right to be pissed off.
IT WASN'T A RIGGED PRIMARY!! IT WAS THE SAME FUCKING PRIMARY USING THE SAME RULES AND SYSTEM THEY HAVE USED EVERY FUCKING 4 YEARS SINCE FOREVER!! THE SAME RULES AND SYSTEM THAT MADE CLINTON LOSE IN '08!!

Just because the DNC tries to cook up a PR plan to get voters to love Clinton more than non-Democrat Sanders doesn't mean it would WORK. Voters don't have to listen to the DMC. And the plans in those emails weren't instituted.

Bottom line: Many millions more people voted for Clinton than for Sanders. Period.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 04:49 PM
I definitely understand that they are sad and upset that their candidate lost the primary. But what is booing him and his wishes going to accomplish? Grown adults are throwing temper tantrums as a large group, and it is very weird and counterproductive.

allegro
07-25-2016, 04:52 PM
Man the Democratic Party is the new GOP. Trump pretty much has this guaranteed after those emails got out, Hillary is way to unlikable at this point to even be considered.

Hillary had NOTHING to do with those DNC emails. And the Dems are not new to this. Have you ever heard of Rob Blagojevic?

And I guess I have to remind a lot of you what WATERGATE was all about (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal) ...

Politics. It's a sport.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 05:05 PM
The way this crowd is acting is so embarrassing. They look like utter children. This is EXACTLY the kind of shit I was talking about months ago that led to people like Swykk lecturing me about "how wrong I am" when it came to the Sanders crowd. This is insane. This is a massive chunk of people gifting the presidency to Donald Trump. A major chunk of the GOP leadership didn't want Trump and yet they fell right in behind him when it came time for the convention, and yet these people in the Democratic party can't even let people speak without interrupting as if they're drunk at an open mic. This is offensively, destructively short-sighted. This does nothing good for anybody who isn't a Republican.

I feel like I'm in an alternate universe right now. Holy fuck. Remember when everyone was dead certain the RNC would be an historic nightmare? Nope! I can't believe these people. It's a cut your nose to spite your face situation if there ever was one. There are people on the stage trying very hard to bridge gaps and accomplish something and yet you have people who will not let it happen. I can't believe this shit. I hate knowing when Sanders speaks tonight, his own "supporters" are going to treat him like shit.

"Hillary Clinton and Bernie are our champions, they both deserve our cheers" -- that caused lunatics to start chanting "BERNIE!" over and over and over. "Let's show Donald Trump we can work together" got a mixed response. These people are embarrassments. This is utterly horrific.

tony.parente
07-25-2016, 05:11 PM
Hillary had NOTHING to do with those DNC emails. And the Dems are not new to this. Have you ever heard of Rob Blagojevic?
Its not that she had anything to do with them, it's that it helped further paint her corporate bought and paid for image.

allegro
07-25-2016, 05:11 PM
This isn't a fucking game. Maybe these kids are new to this shit and think this is ComicCon. This is Real Fucking Life. Rebellion at the DNC when we have a guy like Trump is fucking STUPID. STUPID.

BIG. FUCKING. PICTURE. PEOPLE.

Those Republicans HATE Socialism more than they hate Hillary. They sit and stroke their money every night. They don't want to share it; not with old people, food stamp recipients, welfare recipients, and SURE AS FUCK NOT TO FUCKING COLLEGE STUDENTS.

Look, Bernie should have run as an INDEPENDENT. PERIOD. Then all these idiots wouldn't be bitching like children at a DNC.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 05:18 PM
IT WASN'T A RIGGED PRIMARY!! IT WAS THE SAME FUCKING PRIMARY USING THE SAME RULES AND SYSTEM THEY HAVE USED EVERY FUCKING 4 YEARS SINCE FOREVER!! THE SAME RULES AND SYSTEM THAT MADE CLINTON LOSE IN '08!!
IT WAS RIGGED. IT WAS COMPLETELY ONE SIDED. THEY PUSHED A NARRATIVE IN SUPPORT OF HILLARY CLINTON. THEY PURPOSELY GAVE HER AN ADVANTAGE. IT WAS NOT A FAIR PRIMARY. It's not about what the outcome would have been, it's about that it's WRONG.


Hillary had NOTHING to do with those DNC emails. And the Dems are not new to this. Have you ever heard of Rob Blagojevic?

And I guess I have to remind a lot of you what WATERGATE was all about (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal) ...

Politics. It's a sport.
Hillary isn't directly involved. But it was done in support FOR her.


I definitely understand that they are sad and upset that their candidate lost the primary. But what is booing him and his wishes going to accomplish? Grown adults are throwing temper tantrums as a large group, and it is very weird and counterproductive.

The way this crowd is acting is so embarrassing. They look like utter children. This is EXACTLY the kind of shit I was talking about months ago that led to people like @Swykk (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285) lecturing me about "how wrong I am" when it came to the Sanders crowd. This is insane. This is a massive chunk of people gifting the presidency to Donald Trump. A major chunk of the GOP leadership didn't want Trump and yet they fell right in behind him when it came time for the convention, and yet these people in the Democratic party can't even let people speak without interrupting as if they're drunk at an open mic. This is offensively, destructively short-sighted. This does nothing good for anybody who isn't a Republican.

I feel like I'm in an alternate universe right now. Holy fuck. Remember when everyone was dead certain the RNC would be an historic nightmare? Nope! I can't believe these people. It's a cut your nose to spite your face situation if there ever was one. There are people on the stage trying very hard to bridge gaps and accomplish something and yet you have people who will not let it happen. I can't believe this shit. I hate knowing when Sanders speaks tonight, his own "supporters" are going to treat him like shit.

"Hillary Clinton and Bernie are our champions, they both deserve our cheers" -- that caused lunatics to start chanting "BERNIE!" over and over and over. "Let's show Donald Trump we can work together" got a mixed response. These people are embarrassments. This is utterly horrific.
These people were treated like fucking dogs. God fucking forbid they show the DNC how much they are pissed off about this. You know who acted like children? The DNC for doing this shit in the first fucking place.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 05:20 PM
This isn't a fucking game. Maybe these kids are new to this shit and think this is ComicCon. This is Real Fucking Life. Rebellion at the DNC when we have a guy like Trump is fucking STUPID. STUPID.

BIG. FUCKING. PICTURE. PEOPLE.

Those Republicans HATE Socialism more than they hate Hillary. They sit and stroke their money every night. They don't want to share it; not with old people, food stamp recipients, welfare recipients, and SURE AS FUCK NOT TO FUCKING COLLEGE STUDENTS.

Look, Bernie should have run as an INDEPENDENT. PERIOD. Then all these idiots wouldn't be bitching like children at a DNC.

It is so many young people who do not realize that the world is not perfect and does not bow to your every whim and that you have to accept some losses. It is goddamned insane. I cannot believe the DNC is an hour in and has me more afraid than four days of the RNC did. These people are doing all they can to make sure Trump wins, whether they see it or not.

neorev
07-25-2016, 05:22 PM
IT WASN'T A RIGGED PRIMARY!! IT WAS THE SAME FUCKING PRIMARY USING THE SAME RULES AND SYSTEM THEY HAVE USED EVERY FUCKING 4 YEARS SINCE FOREVER!! THE SAME RULES AND SYSTEM THAT MADE CLINTON LOSE IN '08!!

Just because the DNC tries to cook up a PR plan to get voters to love Clinton more than non-Democrat Sanders doesn't mean it would WORK. Voters don't have to listen to the DMC. And the plans in those emails weren't instituted.

Bottom line: Many millions more people voted for Clinton than for Sanders. Period.

Actually there are multiple lawsuits alleging evidence that Bernie actually won the primary and evidence of fraud. One of the lawsuits is being headed by the guy who worked with the FBI and exposed the RNC was trying to steal Ohio during Romney vs Obama. There's a famous clip of Karl Rove losing his shit on Fox News during Ohio's primary. Romney was clearly losing, but Rove kept insisting he would win. What Karl didn't know was that the fix was called off because of the FBI and the man at head of this new lawsuit exposing the fraud.

Another thing is why haven't we gotten an official voting result from California? You use to be able to Google and find it easy on Cali's .gov site as they were counting. According to the most recent memo, they counted 8.5 million ballots. There were also a million ballots rejected with no explanation. With 3 million balllots to go, Bernie closed the gap into the single digits. Now all you can find is AP's ballot count when Hillary was in double digits and only 3.5 million ballots were counted. So where's the count with the 5 million other ballots?

My brother in law is in his late 30s and a longtime registered Democrat who has voted for years in all the different elections since he was able to vote. But for some reason his party affiliation was changed to no affiliation and was unable to vote in New York primary for the first time in his life.

There's been fraud and voter suppression is a dozen states. This election was stolen. Hillary is the establishment's candidate. Bernie had huge support and they had to pull this crap to keep the election in the establishment's hands.

Then people try to use the popular vote polling to show how much Hillary is more liked... but neglect to mention the 10% margin of error. When you're dealing with that many people being polled and a 10% margin of error, that lead is drastically diminished... if not, nonexistent.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 05:26 PM
It is so many young people who do not realize that the world is not perfect and does not bow to your every whim and that you have to accept some losses. It is goddamned insane. I cannot believe the DNC is an hour in and has me more afraid than four days of the RNC did. These people are doing all they can to make sure Trump wins, whether they see it or not.

This isn't a fucking game. Maybe these kids are new to this shit and think this is ComicCon. This is Real Fucking Life. Rebellion at the DNC when we have a guy like Trump is fucking STUPID. STUPID.

BIG. FUCKING. PICTURE. PEOPLE.

Those Republicans HATE Socialism more than they hate Hillary. They sit and stroke their money every night. They don't want to share it; not with old people, food stamp recipients, welfare recipients, and SURE AS FUCK NOT TO FUCKING COLLEGE STUDENTS.

Look, Bernie should have run as an INDEPENDENT. PERIOD. Then all these idiots wouldn't be bitching like children at a DNC.
So, you both basically admit you're biased due to your fear of trump.

And the DNC shouldn't have been scumbags. PERIOD.

I'm gonna go get drunk and prepare for the Apocalypse.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 05:31 PM
So, you both basically admit you're biased due to your fear of trump.

And the DNC shouldn't have been scumbags. PERIOD.

I'm gonna go get drunk and prepare for the Apocalypse.

When a party has thoroughly rounded around and vowed to aggressively support a racist, destructive, impulsive and economically-ignorant authoritarian who cites Alex Jones a news source, I don't think it's really absurd to feel that it's not the time to demand perfection in their opponent.

I voted Bernie Sanders in the Florida primary the very first day of early voting. He was my first pick. But I don't see my first pick as my only pick. I like Hillary and always have. I like Bernie and always have. I like the Democratic platform and always have. I'm not going to say "FUCK IT THEN, IT'S ALL SHIT" and sit back and allow someone who publically and proudly advocates torture and deportation based on religious beliefs just because the nominee for the Democratic party isn't my dream choice for POTUS.

I have zero interest in talking to you at this point.

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 05:31 PM
This thread is pure magic right now. People bitching about Bernie supporters who won't just fall in-line with THEIR politics. What a selfish statement. Yeah, its soooo horrible that people want to vote their own conscience instead of someone else's politics.



It is so many young people who do not realize that the world is not perfect and does not bow to your every whim and that you have to accept some losses. It is goddamned insane.
yeah, fuck those kids for having ideals that are different than yours! Fuck democracy, we need a hard-lined voting block that supports corruption because <fear>. What a unifying and digestible message! It's got so much credibility too being that you use it every fucking election and things continually get worse.


I cannot believe the DNC is an hour in and has me more afraid than four days of the RNC did. These people are doing all they can to make sure Trump wins, whether they see it or not.
I'm guessing you don't understand that people with your mentality are reaping what you sow right now. So it's good you are afraid, especially being that your rhetoric is based around fear.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 05:37 PM
I don't care who people want to vote for, really. I think a lot of the stuff going around right now is silly and short sighted, but that is their decision. But booing him for stating what he wishes for his supporters to do is petty. It seems like a lot of his supporters have little to zero respect for him, which I admittedly have a difficult time grasping.

richardp
07-25-2016, 05:46 PM
It is so many young people who do not realize that the world is not perfect and does not bow to your every whim and that you have to accept some losses.

What you don't understand about these young people is that we actually aspire to create a world that COULD BE perfect for everyone in it. Maybe our generation wants to be the one that finally won't accept that life has some losses and want to do something about it. Maybe we want to be the generation to finally achieve some sort of equality. But we're just stupid kids who want free lunch to anyone over 35 because y'all have already decided to lose hope.

allegro
07-25-2016, 05:49 PM
What you don't understand about these young people is that we actually aspire to create a world that COULD BE perfect for everyone in it.
With an old guy in the Executive slot who has no authority to create laws, and Republicans controlling Congress, and Bernie won't negotiate with any of them?

Hit that bong again.

Abbie Hoffman and all those guys were equally delusional.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 05:55 PM
I don't care who people want to vote for, really. I think a lot of the stuff going around right now is silly and short sighted, but that is their decision. But booing him for stating what he wishes for his supporters to do is petty. It seems like a lot of his supporters have little to zero respect for him, which I admittedly have a difficult time grasping.
His supporters probably don't have respect for him anymore, or are at least in "turn our backs on you" scenario considering they wanted him to disavow Hillary but he didn't. Not saying he should, but that's what they've been trying to achieve.

Bernie is going to have to try to get his supporters back on his side. And I don't think you can just do a tv interview to do that.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 05:55 PM
Where are these people in local elections? Where are they in state legislature?

You want the White House? BUILD YOUR MOVEMENT IN THE GOVERNMENT. You don't just fling fringe views at the presidency and get bitchy when you can't get it. Want a further-left nation?

SO DO I.

You get that by taking control of low-level legislature and building it up. The Tea Party controls so much of Congress, and they didn't get there by just stomping their feet every RNC and fixating on the presidency. Quite the opposite.

I don't buy for an instant that these people are pushing for what they claim, or else they'd get that. This is short-sighted obstructionism and legislative self-harm. If you care about the environment you're not going to let a party that CALLS COAL CLEAN ENERGY control all 3 branches of government, which they 100% will if Trump is the president and chooses the next 3-4 Supreme Court Justices. Be fucking real.

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 06:01 PM
Where are these people in local elections? Where are they in state legislature?

You want the White House? BUILD YOUR MOVEMENT IN THE GOVERNMENT. You don't just fling fringe views at the presidency and get bitchy when you can't get it. Want a further-left nation?

SO DO I.

You get that by taking control of low-level legislature and building it up. The Tea Party controls so much of Congress, and they didn't get there by just stomping their feet every RNC and fixating on the presidency. Quite the opposite.


100% agree.





I don't buy for an instant that these people are pushing for what they claim, or else they'd get that.
So you don't agree with their method. So what? It's not like your method of "just eat the shit because im scared of the other shit" has panned out very well.



This is short-sighted obstructionism and legislative self-harm.
Isn't that exactly what they said about the Tea Party? :)

allegro
07-25-2016, 06:01 PM
My brother in law is in his late 30s and a longtime registered Democrat who has voted for years in all the different elections since he was able to vote. But for some reason his party affiliation was changed to no affiliation and was unable to vote in New York primary for the first time in his life.
This and the other instances you mention affected ALL voters, not just Democrat voters.

In NY, nobody was sitting there hand-culling people using a crystal ball, "HEY, THIS DEM SURE LOOKS LIKE A BERNIE VOTER TO ME! LET'S YANK THEIR DESIGNATION IN ADVANCE!" "HEY, WAIT. THIS OTHER DEM, MY MAGIC 8 BALL SAYS THEY MAY VOTE FOR CLINTON SO LET'S LEAVE A 'D' ON THEIR AFFILIATION." No, it didn"t work that way. A whole SHITLOAD of people's affiliations got dumped so it fucked Clinton AND Sanders voters. AND Trump says it fucked him, too, because Kasich won a few electoral votes in Manhattan.

Ditto for the repeal of the Federal protection of minorities under the VRA which would have prevented TONS OF SHIT that the Tea Party people pulled in various districts including decreasing poling places, etc.

In Cook County IL, my Mom had already voted in '08 and they lost all records of her voter registration and made her present 3 forms of ID, and then the voting judge tried to hint to her to vote for TRUMP: HIGHLY ILLEGAL (my Mom's a Democrat who voted for Clinton).

allegro
07-25-2016, 06:09 PM
So, you both basically admit you're biased due to your fear of trump.

And the DNC shouldn't have been scumbags. PERIOD.

I'm gonna go get drunk and prepare for the Apocalypse.

No, I am behind the PARTY. What A FEW PEOPLE did in the DNC does not represent all party members or the platform.

It's not "fear" of Trump, but wanting better for this country; a better direction, not going backward and losing any forward direction we have had, and forgetting about the poor, etc. Which is what Trump represents.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 06:10 PM
http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/25/12279324/bernie-sanders-text-supporters-dnc-protest-hillary-clinton

Wheeeeeeeew.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 06:13 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/25/trump-hosting-ask-me-anything-on-reddit/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social (http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/25/trump-hosting-ask-me-anything-on-reddit/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social)

Oh, I'm sure this is going to go WONDERFULLY.

allegro
07-25-2016, 06:17 PM
IT WAS RIGGED. IT WAS COMPLETELY ONE SIDED. THEY PUSHED A NARRATIVE IN SUPPORT OF HILLARY CLINTON. THEY PURPOSELY GAVE HER AN ADVANTAGE. IT WAS NOT A FAIR PRIMARY. It's not about what the outcome would have been, it's about that it's WRONG.
Bullshit. Sanders got millions of fucking votes. If it was that rigged it would not have even been CLOSE; if the DNC was all powerful, they would have shut him down the first month. But they didn't. They couldn't. Because voters vote. Regardless of any party narrative. Example? Jeb Bush. He was the GOP Chosen One. They all pumped millions into his campaign. Romney wanted in, but they told him "go away! Jeb's our guy!"

See how that turned out?

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 06:19 PM
Bullshit. Sanders got millions of fucking votes. If it was that rigged it would not have even been CLOSE; if the DNC was all powerfull, they would have shut him down the first month. But they didn't. They couldn't. Because voters vote.
Their convention hall also wouldn't be full of raving lunatics destroying any image of strength or unity on national TV.

Baphomette
07-25-2016, 06:29 PM
Their convention hall also wouldn't be full of raving lunatics destroying any image of strength or unity on national TV.I'm so confused... Are you talking about the RNC? The DNC? The BNC?

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 06:34 PM
Bullshit. Sanders got millions of fucking votes. If it was that rigged it would not have even been CLOSE
The only bullshit here is you denying something that's proven to have happened. And god forbid the DNC just fucking suck at it, but them sucking at it doesn't mean it didn't have an affect.

And even if it didn't have an affect, it doesn't change the fact that it's WRONG.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 06:51 PM
I'm so confused... Are you talking about the RNC? The DNC? The BNC?
The DNC has so far this entire convention been full of interruptions, protests, booing and chanting. It's a madhouse. It looks like what everyone expected Cleveland to resemble.

Swykk
07-25-2016, 06:58 PM
The way this crowd is acting is so embarrassing. They look like utter children. This is EXACTLY the kind of shit I was talking about months ago that led to people like @Swykk (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285) lecturing me about "how wrong I am" when it came to the Sanders crowd. This is insane. This is a massive chunk of people gifting the presidency to Donald Trump. A major chunk of the GOP leadership didn't want Trump and yet they fell right in behind him when it came time for the convention, and yet these people in the Democratic party can't even let people speak without interrupting as if they're drunk at an open mic. This is offensively, destructively short-sighted. This does nothing good for anybody who isn't a Republican.

I feel like I'm in an alternate universe right now. Holy fuck. Remember when everyone was dead certain the RNC would be an historic nightmare? Nope! I can't believe these people. It's a cut your nose to spite your face situation if there ever was one. There are people on the stage trying very hard to bridge gaps and accomplish something and yet you have people who will not let it happen. I can't believe this shit. I hate knowing when Sanders speaks tonight, his own "supporters" are going to treat him like shit.

"Hillary Clinton and Bernie are our champions, they both deserve our cheers" -- that caused lunatics to start chanting "BERNIE!" over and over and over. "Let's show Donald Trump we can work together" got a mixed response. These people are embarrassments. This is utterly horrific.

You were painting with a broad brush and being condescending which then STILL happened AFTER Hillary won the nomination! It was poor form and unnecessary. We've been over this. You were wrong to do those two things. That's what I said here and in PMs. I wasn't the only one who thought so either. Can you let it go now?

As for what they're pissed about? They have every right to be. I'm pissed off about it. I've been justified in my DWS criticisms and today the facts came in and backed me up. They didn't really need to. It was obvious the DNC was fucking Bernie. He's trying to take it on the chin like a champ and now SOME of his own supporters are being jerks.

Also, for the what seems like millionth time, I am keeping my word and voting Hillary to stop Trump among a few other reasons but don't believe for a second that Hillary rehiring DWS is cool with me.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 06:59 PM
Look, at the end of the day, I don't think all of us are ever going to agree over this situation, so I'm just gonna excuse myself from this debate. Call me or think of me as coward if you want, but I'm just not enjoying this, you know?

also, Kleiner352, if I offended you with my Trump fear claim, I'm sorry.

I'm gonna go back to drinking, I'll dedicate a shot to you guys. I know, kind of juvenile, but it's the thought that counts.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 06:59 PM
You know... It's fucking amazing that I will have an opportunity to vote for a woman for president. I never really thought that would happen in my lifetime.

Three elections in a row where we have an opportunity to vote for someone other than the norm. That's fucking rad as shit. With all of the craziness surrounding this election, I haven't even really paused to think about what a huge step this is in the right direction.

allegro
07-25-2016, 07:05 PM
The only bullshit here is you denying something that's proven to have happened. And god forbid the DNC just fucking suck at it, but them sucking at it doesn't mean it didn't have an affect.

And even if it didn't have an affect, it doesn't change the fact that it's WRONG.
Is it wrong that two idiots in the DNC sent those emails?

Yes, absolutely. It may even be Federally illegal. And those two idiots may have to face criminal charges.

Did their emails pan out to any real plans? No, it appears not. Bernie did EXTREMELY well in spite of their idiotic unhatched plans.

Should the entire Democratic Party be punished for it? No, most didn't even know about it, including Hillary Clinton.

I suspect that DWS threatened something against all of them, including Obama, hence why she was given an "Honorary Chair" position which isn't usually even a PAID position. DWS is a snake goofball. I wouldn't put it past her if she tried to pull a huge EEOC complaint if she wasn't given some concession.

Swykk
07-25-2016, 07:13 PM
The single worst reason for voting for Hillary: "I want a woman president." See: Lena Dunham. And yet, I read so many tweets basically stating just that.

If that Derek Zoolander/Patrick Bateman hybrid piece of shit Milo Yiannapoulos was running for office, for anything, would he get the gay vote solely because he's gay? I would fucking hope not.

I want the best qualified candidate no matter what age, sex, race, sexual preference. That's the way it should be. Nobody should be turning a blind eye or deaf ear to what a candidate is saying and doing (or not doing) because you want to cement something in history. That's not a good trade off. If Elizabeth Warren ran? There's the right woman choice. I'm with you 100%.

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 07:20 PM
one thing I want to clarify before I go, I never meant to accuse or imply Hillary of knowing about it. There is no proof of that, it would be foolish to claim so. But what I'm stating is, Sander supporters may not vote for her out of spite because she was the favorable candidate by those in the DNC leak.

And one thing we need to remember is, wikileaks claim they aren't done. I know it's unlikely, but I'm hoping they have dirt on Trump.

allegro
07-25-2016, 07:21 PM
Swykk, no offense, but as females, this is a truly historic moment for us. No, we didn't vote for Fiorina. We are voting for a Democrat, who happens to be female, but YES we ARE ALLOWED to rejoice in the fact that for the first time in over 200 years we have a female nominee for the President of the United States, when 96 years ago females were not allowed to vote. Just like when Obama, a black man, was nominated and that was historic (and I was down by Grant Park, crying), we are allowed to rejoice.

And many of us females are voting for Hillary because we believe she is qualified, because she will do a good job, because she actually has much more experience than Warren, etc. Not SOLELY because she is female. And we can still accept this as a truly historic moment in this country. Because it is.

Swykk
07-25-2016, 07:23 PM
I'm not wanting to take that from you. A few pages ago you and some others made it clear it wasn't the only reason you were behind Hillary. I can respect that.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 07:25 PM
Yeah. I hate it when people try to insinuate that women are voting for her ONLY because she is a woman. That's such a weird thing to say. That isn't the case at all. I just think it's rad that I will have the OPPORTUNITY to vote for a woman. I didn't think it would happen in my life, and it will be awesome to have the chance. I'm not voting for her because she is a woman. I am voting for her because she is the option that most closely aligns with my views.

Swykk
07-25-2016, 07:28 PM
I'm not implying it. It is a thing that exists. I'm surprised every time I come across it because I want to believe people are smarter than that. That people have more integrity than that.

Granted, that's a big stretch to expect such things from Twitter.

If I could learn how to tag you, I would've in the post where I said "you and some others." I know you aren't like that.

allegro
07-25-2016, 07:35 PM
Look, bottom line is that, yes, many divide along underrepresented tribal lines; Latinos will want to vote for Latinos in order to promote the interests and the representation of Latinos; blacks will do the same; etc. etc. but, face it, white dudes really don't need to DO that.

It does not mean that people who DO are missing any integrity.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 07:42 PM
Maaaaaan. +163 points for the campaign speaking about addiction in this manner. This is fucking awesome.

And Clinton even acknowledging in that clip that it is something that she didn't really think about until she listened to people's stories. Having the ability to be self aware and admit shortcomings is a skill that tons of people lack.

AND NOW MENTAL ILLNESS IT IS LIKE SHE IS PANDERING DIRECTLY TO ME

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 07:53 PM
And then that oddly-placed musical performance for some reason

HOLY SHIT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT MY STATE'S ENVIRONMENT. I feel so pandered to.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 08:00 PM
And then that oddly-placed musical performance for some reason


She is a celebrity who has openly and honestly spoken about her mental illness. But yeah, it was still a bit odd.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 08:05 PM
She is a celebrity who has openly and honestly spoken about her mental illness. But yeah, it was still a bit odd.
I mean I know I just always find the music at these things weird. None of it has edged on that weird South Park-style MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN song from the RNC, though.

sick among the pure
07-25-2016, 08:06 PM
@Swykk (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=285), no offense, but as females, this is a truly historic moment for us.

To me, Palin getting the VP nod was more of a historical moment, since that happened years ago. Nobody claimed sexism when liberals didn't vote for her, though. Because liberals all knew she was terrible for the country. Now that we think the same thing about Hillary, we're suddenly sexist bros.

I get that it's historical and exciting. I would be excited, too, if it were anyone but Hillary. And as many people that harass you for the idea of "you're only voting for her because you're a woman" harass me for not wanting to vote for her because she's a woman. So long as we can all agree, no matter who we do or do not want in office, that Hillary being a woman is not the reason for our votes, then it's all good.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 08:12 PM
I was just speaking about this(having the chance to vote for a woman) with my friend, and he linked me to this piece:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-a-woman-could-be-president-omg_us_5755b58ae4b0c3752dce47f6?

Sums it up pretty well.

botley
07-25-2016, 08:28 PM
To me, Palin getting the VP nod was more of a historical moment, since that happened years ago. Nobody claimed sexism when liberals didn't vote for her, though. Because liberals all knew she was terrible for the country. Now that we think the same thing about Hillary, we're suddenly sexist bros.
First of all, as a 'historical moment' goes, the Democrats nominated a woman for VP decades ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Ferraro). There were substantive critiques of Palin's policy record, to say nothing of her showboating, folksy rube-speak act that obfuscated real problems with invented/imagined ones. When people talk about their dislike of Clinton, it's always in loaded, unspecific terms like "un-trustworthy", presuming guilt by association. I've always seen "why would you vote FOR Clinton JUST BECAUSE she's a woman????!1" with the subtext being "women are not to be trusted and YOU BETTER BELIEVE you can't trust this one".


And as many people that harass you for the idea of "you're only voting for her because you're a woman" harass me for not wanting to vote for her because she's a woman. So long as we can all agree, no matter who we do or do not want in office, that Hillary being a woman is not the reason for our votes, then it's all good.
Emotion trumps (ha) reason. Hillary is going for the emotional tack of being the first woman to be nominated for President by one of the major parties (NOT the first female nominee in the past 200 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_United_States_presidential_and_vice-presidential_candidates#Presidential_candidates), @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76), sorry to nitpick). She has to fight on this turf. She cannot win by arguing policy. She has to grab her voters emotionally to engage them and beat Trump at his own game of politicking by feeling, gut, emotion. Logic will not win.

Baphomette
07-25-2016, 08:29 PM
To me, Palin getting the VP nod was more of a historical moment, since that happened years ago. Nobody claimed sexism when liberals didn't vote for her, though.We voted for Geraldine Ferraro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Ferraro).

allegro
07-25-2016, 08:42 PM
NOT the first female nominee in the past 200 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_United_States_presidential_and_vice-presidential_candidates#Presidential_candidates), @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76), sorry to nitpick)
Geraldine Ferraro and Sarah Palin were selected as running mates by men who were the Party's Presidential nominees; that's not the same thing as winning a primary and clinching the nomination, and being selected at a convention to represent one of the two major Parties as their Presidential Candidate for the President of the United States.

no female has ever been a major party's official nominee for President in the U.S., before.

Notice I did not say "candidate" or "vice President."

Frozen Beach
07-25-2016, 08:44 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/25/leaked-dnc-email-mocks-past-accusations-of-weak-cybersecurity/ (http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/25/leaked-dnc-email-mocks-past-accusations-of-weak-cybersecurity/)
Ouch.

onthewall2983
07-25-2016, 08:49 PM
Why You Should Feel Free To Ignore Polls for a Few Weeks (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/upshot/were-about-to-enter-a-period-of-polling-volatility.html?_r=0)

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 08:50 PM
Well, it seems as though the convention's insanity is over and it's actually a productive, interesting thing now. The night and day difference between this and the RNC when it comes to discussion of actual policy is incredible to me.

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 09:08 PM
The crowd at the DNC looks like it's comprised of actual humans who smile with their eyes.

botley
07-25-2016, 09:22 PM
no female has ever been a major party's official nominee for President in the U.S., before.

Notice I did not say "candidate" or "vice President."
Understood, but just wanted to recognize that there are other parties and they have nominated women for the job before. In Canada, we've only ever had a female Prime Minister in power for, like, fourteen weeks, so we're not doing much better.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 09:22 PM
I never thought I would be "wooo"ing to anything Sarah Silverman said while I was alone in my living room. Haha.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 09:30 PM
Watching that crowd booing Sarah Silverman after making them cheer for several minutes straight and being an extremely vocal Sanders supporter this entire last year may have been the moment that fully pushed my psyche over the edge and into full-on insanity

Weew

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 09:31 PM
The crowd at the DNC looks like it's comprised of actual humans who smile with their eyes.


Maybe it's related to the 4 miles of 8 foot tall wall the built around the DNC?
http://i.imgur.com/IpbJ7NF.jpg

Or maybe the wall they built around the stage.
http://i.imgur.com/mRuy8jh.jpg






lols

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 09:36 PM
Yes, conventions have security.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 09:38 PM
Why is the fence a big deal? I don't get it!

CORY CORY CORY! AHHHHHHHHRIHDWI;o

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 09:39 PM
Yes, conventions have security.
But but but a convention with multiple former presidents and the current president and a presidential nominee and a ton of leglislatures having security is CLEARLY that elitist Democrat hypocrisy, don't'cha'know

@Sarah K (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=3236) it's not he's just a tool who likes to troll liberals because we don't think everyone should have an assault rifle and that Gary Johnson will soon save us

Also this audience shittalking during Cory fucking Booker's speech may be the greatest sign of their ignorance that I have ever seen; that man is absolutely amazing.

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 09:39 PM
It's almost as if people are aware that conventions could be targeted by, say, a truck bomber or mass shooting.

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 09:40 PM
Why is the fence a big deal? I don't get it!

Because the Dems rail on Trump for wanting to build one at the border. Yet, it's good security for them!

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 09:41 PM
It's almost as if people are aware that conventions could be targeted by, say, a truck bomber or mass shooting.
................ are you look at the same pictures I am?

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 09:41 PM
You really don't see the difference?

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 09:43 PM
Please let this be Booker's moment that catapults him into the national conversation a la Obama in 2004. I am so fucking inspired by this man it is unbelievable.

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 09:44 PM
You really don't see the difference?
i dont see the difference in what those walls are going to do when it concerns a fucking truck bomber

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 09:45 PM
Help stop or alert law enforcement that something is wrong when a truck rams through it?

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 09:48 PM
Please let this be Booker's moment that catapults him into the national conversation a la Obama in 2004. I am so fucking inspired by this man it is unbelievable.
I still believe he should have been Hillary's VP. The man is incredibly charismatic, extremely inspiring and basically everything I want in a Democratic politician.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 09:52 PM
I seriously cry more often than not when listening to him speak.

Should have seen me when we were in the same room and then hugged...

Swykk
07-25-2016, 09:52 PM
I never thought I would be "wooo"ing to anything Sarah Silverman said while I was alone in my living room. Haha.

Why not? She's awesome!

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 09:53 PM
DigitalChaos I understand that the presence of security barriers at the DNC offend you more than one keeping immigrants from joining us.

It's just that a lot of people are actually going to this convention.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 10:03 PM
And, you know, a wire fence around a convention center is really different from a massive wall with a BEAUTIFUL door across the entire Mexican-American border in literally every single way, but, hey -- that's being reasonable and not insane

I feel like I just watched Cory Booker cement his place as a future US President. I wish I was voting for him in November.

Leviathant
07-25-2016, 10:04 PM
I'm ranting on Facebook, and Miss Baphomette suggested I share this here!

What a fascinating new era of propaganda!

I've been thinking for a while that the Sanders movement had been co-opted by the same promotional types that took over the Tea Party movement, setting in motion the disruption of the Republican party that seems to be peaking now (please, please let this be the peak of madness). Seeing the hashtag #‎DemExit‬ being used non-ironically only solidifies this idea in my head. Considering the Murdoch media's support of the bonkers #‎Brexit‬ movement, I think it's a pretty foolish look to adopt, but then I think it's pretty foolish for Sanders supporters to boo him about keeping his word over something he's been saying he'd do for as long as he's been a Democrat. Maybe you were a Sanders supporter a long time ago, but if you're booing him now, you've fallen in line with a story that Drudge and Breitbart sold you, and I think you lost the original plot. You're the liberal equivalent of the tea party, and that's nothing to be proud of.

On the other side of the political spectrum, over the last few years I'd noticed an increasingly sympathetic tone towards Putin from Republicans and conservative talking heads. The same type of people who, during the early Bush years, swore up and down that Russia was enemy #1, to the point of ignoring the bin Laden threat. During the Obama presidency, it trickled down to the masses, who made Facebook posts calling Putin a "real leader", retweeting stories from the RT network, perhaps oblivious to the fact that RT stands for "Russia Today", when not long ago, these same people boiled at the thought of any American being a Russian sympathizer.

These same folks, who seethe at the names Snowden and Manning, are now cheering the release of private information stolen by Russians from DNC servers (and they wonder why Clinton kept her own) with an orchestrated release set to best weaken the position of the party running against the presidential candidate who's suddenly peddling the bonkers notion that if Russia attacks countries in NATO, that we should only defend them "If they fulfill their obligations to us"

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 10:12 PM
Michelle is arguably a better speaker than Barack Obama.

Leviathant
07-25-2016, 10:14 PM
Michelle is arguably a better speaker than Barack Obama.

Yeah, FTFY.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 10:27 PM
Booker to Michelle Obama to Warren. They tryna give me a heart attack tonight.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 10:29 PM
Booker to Michelle Obama to Warren. They tryna give me a heart attack tonight.
And this is just night 1!

Night 1 of the RNC had, uhhhhhh ... Scott Baio and that Duck Dynasty dude?

orestes
07-25-2016, 10:33 PM
Yeah, FTFY.

Michelle for GOAT.

orestes
07-25-2016, 10:35 PM
Also, some of these delegates protesting on the floor are being so extra.

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 10:35 PM
These same folks, who seethe at the names Snowden and Manning, are now cheering the release of private information stolen by Russians from DNC servers (and they wonder why Clinton kept her own) with an orchestrated release set to best weaken the position of the party running against the presidential candidate who's suddenly peddling the bonkers notion that if Russia attacks countries in NATO, that we should only defend them "If they fulfill their obligations to us"

#1 - Russia has not been properly attributed to the hack

#2 - You point out that some entity is trying to manipulate the election outcome with the hack but ignore the fact that the DNC is another entity that manipulated the election outcome.

#3 - Whoever hacked the DNC didn't write those emails or force the DNC to do the shitty stuff they did.

#4 - If they DNC really cared about the leaks being leveraged due to timing, they would release the info themselves. So what's the DNC's own priority? Preventing an outside party from leveraging the info... or hoping they can hide the dirty shit they did to manipulate the election?

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 10:44 PM
Elizabeth Warren turns me on intellectually in a way nothing sexual could ever match, goddamn

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 10:45 PM
Also, some of these delegates protesting on the floor are being so extra.

They're about to short-circuit when Bernie endorses hard.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 10:46 PM
They're about to short-circuit when Bernie endorses hard.
C'mon dude anyone who knows anything knows it's just because his grandkids are being threatened by those evil Clintons

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 10:48 PM
https://berniesanders.com/sanders-prepared-remarks-at-democratic-national-convention/

allegro
07-25-2016, 10:49 PM
Understood, but just wanted to recognize that there are other parties and they have nominated women for the job before. In Canada, we've only ever had a female Prime Minister in power for, like, fourteen weeks, so we're not doing much better.

Yes, but we don't count Vice Presidents (they weren't selected by votes), and candidates for smaller parties like Greens etc. aren't nearly as historic in this country because they aren't even on our ballots (they choose a candidate via a convention, alone).

When Shirley Chisholm ran for President, she said she experienced more discrimination as a female Presidential candidate than she did as a black woman.

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 10:51 PM
Donald J. Trump
✔@realDonaldTrump (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump)

If Cory Booker is the future of the Democratic Party, they have no future! I know more about Cory than he knows about himself.

Bruh. Come for him!

DigitalChaos
07-25-2016, 10:52 PM
DigitalChaos I understand that the presence of security barriers at the DNC offend you more than one keeping immigrants from joining us.

It's just that a lot of people are actually going to this convention.

I'm an open borders guy.

I'm not saying it's the same. I just think the optics are funny.

It's like when Dianne Feinstein used to conceal carry in California while pushing laws against it.

emptydesk
07-25-2016, 10:54 PM
LOL, sure it's like that buddy.

implanted_microchip
07-25-2016, 10:58 PM
This is the Bernie Sanders I fell in love with that the BernieOrBust nutjobs have done so much to make me forget exists. He won 22 states in the US as a self-proclaimed Democratic Socialist, helped write the most progressive major party platform in US history and did it all with zero SuperPACs.

THAT'S a lot to be proud of and to build off of.

Now if these people in that room could listen to what he has to say, that'd be great.

allegro
07-25-2016, 11:07 PM
I wish these people would stop booing. That's just disrespectful and rude. No manners at all. They aren't Democrats. I don't know why they are there.

Edit: Well, it's okay when the boo C.U., LOL

Mantra
07-25-2016, 11:07 PM
boy this election cycle is the gift that keeps on giving

so much drama today!

never a dull day in 2016 america

Sarah K
07-25-2016, 11:09 PM
They're the Tea Party of the left. Just not as organized.

Dra508
07-25-2016, 11:12 PM
Co-worker believes that if Clinton becomes president, she'll break the law, like she has in the past. If Trump becomes president, congress and SCOTUS will keep him in check. Wait wut? I fail to see his logic and told him it might be best if he just stay home on Election Day. Is Utah a swing state?

Leviathant
07-25-2016, 11:25 PM
#1 - Russia has not been properly attributed to the hack

If there's anyone I'll defer to on this point it's most definitely you :)


#2 - You point out that some entity is trying to manipulate the election outcome with the hack but ignore the fact that the DNC is another entity that manipulated the election outcome.

Eh, what the DNC is doing is standard fare. The email leak exposed things people were already assuming. That's not particularly good propaganda, IMHO. You're not wrong, they do make an effort to manipulate the election outcome, but that's what political parties do. It's expected of them, has been for at least as long as the country was founded, much to the chagrin of a number of the founding fathers.


#3 - Whoever hacked the DNC didn't write those emails or force the DNC to do the shitty stuff they did.

And there's equally shitty stuff in the RNC emails, no doubt about it. I do not mean in any way to hand-wave the crappy emails away. But people who think that stuff doesn't happen don't understand politics. It sucks, but that's the reality of it. Sort of like handling fees on Ticketmaster tickets are actually put in place by the artists, not Ticketmaster.


#4 - If they DNC really cared about the leaks being leveraged due to timing, they would release the info themselves. So what's the DNC's own priority? Preventing an outside party from leveraging the info... or hoping they can hide the dirty shit they did to manipulate the election?

Historically, their priority has always been covering their own ass - and it nearly always fails.

DigitalChaos
07-26-2016, 12:14 AM
If there's anyone I'll defer to on this point it's most definitely you :)


Eh, what the DNC is doing is standard fare. The email leak exposed things people were already assuming. That's not particularly good propaganda, IMHO. You're not wrong, they do make an effort to manipulate the election outcome, but that's what political parties do. It's expected of them, has been for at least as long as the country was founded, much to the chagrin of a number of the founding fathers.


And there's equally shitty stuff in the RNC emails, no doubt about it. I do not mean in any way to hand-wave the crappy emails away. But people who think that stuff doesn't happen don't understand politics. It sucks, but that's the reality of it. Sort of like handling fees on Ticketmaster tickets are actually put in place by the artists, not Ticketmaster.


Historically, their priority has always been covering their own ass - and it nearly always fails.

I agree on almost all points. It just seems weird to be averse to propaganda that may be coming from outside the Sanders camp (at least thats what you allege) while accepting the the problems I outlined. I also think that you may be overplaying the outside influence perspective. Sanders people have been talking this way long before Trump people jumped along side them. There is a lot of "enemy of my enemy" common interest going on, sure. But quite a lot of this comes from Sanders people who simply hate Hillary.

The attribution very well may go down to Russia, but for now it's the Dems talking about it as a certainty to downplay the leaks (propaganda). I haven't even fully gone through the leaks (and there is more to come) but something like rewarding donors with federal appointments (http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/24/leaked-dnc-documents-show-plans-to-reward-big-donors-with-federal-appointments/) strikes me as way beyond "standard fare" ... unless we are talking about this from the perspective of extreme cynicism?

allegro
07-26-2016, 12:15 AM
#1 - Russia has not been properly attributed to the hack
It's only a matter of time (https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-hacked-emails-of-dnc-oppo-researcher-point-to-russians-and-wider-penetration-154121061.html).

And, come, John McAfee says it's always either China or Russia (http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mcafee-china-russia-cyber-war-hackers-2016-5).

DigitalChaos
07-26-2016, 12:28 AM
It's only a matter of time (https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-hacked-emails-of-dnc-oppo-researcher-point-to-russians-and-wider-penetration-154121061.html).

And, come, John McAfee says it's always either China or Russia (http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mcafee-china-russia-cyber-war-hackers-2016-5).

WHO did the hack is absolutely a story on its own. But the contents of the emails shouldn't be dismissed because of who hacked them.

There is a lot of reason to suspect it, but there just isn't any evidence yet. Hell, even the FBI presented some evidence that North Korea hacked Sony (even though it still seems extremely unlikely that NK did it).

I will say that the hack is incredibly amusing being that it impacts the very people who openly mocked criticism of the DNC security, and its impacting one of the major political parties that belongs to politicians who fight against encryption. Some basic encryption on those emails would have prevented this. I am looking forward to what comes next, just from the InfoSec perspective of it all.

allegro
07-26-2016, 12:49 AM
WHO did the hack is absolutely a story on its own. But the contents of the emails shouldn't be dismissed because of who hacked them.
I never said otherwise, I just said all signs point to Russia (https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/).

Swykk
07-26-2016, 07:33 AM
Man, that was good soup. This was exactly what Hillary needed to do. Booker maybe stole the show. Hard to say. I love you, Bernie and Sarah Silverman.

Oh, and if you're going to try and put down the Bernie or Busters? Don't say "the tea party of the left." Go with "The Green Tea Party."

You're welcome.

GulDukat
07-26-2016, 08:47 AM
Michelle Obama gave one of the greatest convention speeches ever last night.

aggroculture
07-26-2016, 09:25 AM
I made a fanfare entrance music for Trump, so he doesn't have to use Queen or Rolling Stones anymore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AYyys2iiOM&amp;feature=youtu.be

botley
07-26-2016, 10:44 AM
This is also gold (https://medium.com/@shitHRCcantsay/let-me-remind-you-fuckers-who-i-am-e6e8b297fe47#.dixslbqd9)

bobbie solo
07-26-2016, 11:05 AM
Michelle Obama gave one of the greatest convention speeches ever last night.


is it too late to trade her for Barack? Sucks that she was pushing for much more progressive stances, part. early on, but fucking Rahm seemed to win out on almost every policy debate.

I hope she runs in 4 or 8 years if Warren doesn't.

Sarah K
07-26-2016, 12:36 PM
I'm pretty excited for Bill Clinton tonight. He can get a room riled up pretty well, and I haven't listened to him much this round.

allegro
07-26-2016, 04:24 PM
Bernie tells supporters that voting 3rd Party a bad idea if they want to keep Trump out of White House (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/07/bernie-gives-supporters-red-light-on-green-party.html?mid=facebook_nymag)

Frozen Beach
07-26-2016, 04:24 PM
http://i64.tinypic.com/sqi548.jpg
Today is going to be fun

Sarah K
07-26-2016, 04:29 PM
"white male voters have felt left behind" is an actual thing that someone on whatever channel is on here at work said. I believe MSNBC.

Baphomette
07-26-2016, 04:31 PM
My cat stepped on the trackball and I can't figure out how to unlike/unfacepalm this post.

Anyway, I want to punch all of these people. Every single one of them.


http://i64.tinypic.com/sqi548.jpg
Today is going to be fun

Sarah K
07-26-2016, 06:22 PM
Man, I didn't know that watching this roll call would make me so emotional. <3

allegro
07-26-2016, 06:34 PM
Man, I didn't know that watching this roll call would make me so emotional. <3

I know, me neither, I hear ya!

allegro
07-26-2016, 06:40 PM
We were supposed to be running errands but, wow, I wouldn't miss this for anything!!

Sarah K
07-26-2016, 06:42 PM
And, history is officially made. What a beautiful thing to be able to witness in my lifetime.

allegro
07-26-2016, 06:58 PM
And, history is officially made. What a beautiful thing to be able to witness in my lifetime.

Hallelujah! Oh, happy day!

Sarah K
07-26-2016, 07:30 PM
https://medium.com/@shitHRCcantsay/let-me-remind-you-fuckers-who-i-am-e6e8b297fe47#.f7efmpldx

This shit is soooooo real.

allegro
07-26-2016, 08:33 PM
https://medium.com/@shithrccantsay/let-me-remind-you-fuckers-who-i-am-e6e8b297fe47#.f7efmpldx

this shit is soooooo real.
applauding!!!

G and I are drinking champagne. Really, this has been the best day ever.

implanted_microchip
07-26-2016, 09:43 PM
Man, I half-expected a Howard Dean Scream 2.0 at the end of his speech. Can you imagine how it's gotta feel as that guy looking at everything Trump's been allowed to do consequence-free?

Sarah K
07-26-2016, 09:49 PM
I was hoping for it when I heard him start repeating it. I was yelling at my computer "OH MY GOD. DO IT. DO IT."

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13776042_1663276977328522_1464119820225439170_n.pn g?oh=6952005293235a57f2c8473e57965118&oe=581FC71A

allegro
07-26-2016, 10:09 PM
Yeah Bill Clinton!!!

Bill is gonna bring it!!!

implanted_microchip
07-26-2016, 10:51 PM
This man is one of the finest public speakers alive. I'm in awe.

Edit: I legit cried during the final stretch of tonight's stuff. Bill Clinton making the strongest case for Hillary's status as a progressive ever given and speaking eloquently and with so much honest-to-God heart, Meryl Streep running down that list, Hillary's comment to little girls watching -- I lost it, man.

This DNC is just night and day from the RNC.

newmodel87
07-27-2016, 12:09 AM
Can't believe Bernie supporters still supported Sellout Sanders even after he had previously, openly stabbed them in the back. For all that he said he stood for, Bernie has zero integrity. I bet Bill was certainly happy; I mean, how fast did Bernie drop to his knees and pull out his dentures? I think his supporters were cheated even moreso than he was. But I'm glad Hillary won the democratic nomination because it will be even easier for Trump to win now. Even if the democrats attempt to steal the election, Trump isn't going to cowardly tap out like Bernie did. Bernie supporters need to give it a rest because we all know Bernie already did that. Trump was right, Bernie was exhausted and ready for a nap.

For the record, I think Gary Johnson is decent but I definitely prefer Trump’s views over his and I don't think Gary has much of a chance to win anyways. Not that it really means much, except in terms of public perception, but I didn't think it was possible to be any less charismatic than a doctor yet Gary has somehow managed to be just that. Looking forward to more wikileaks and DNC ridiculousness! Forever Trump!

newmodel87
07-27-2016, 01:20 AM
For all those offended, my bad. I should have issued a trigger warning.

Aladdinsanity
07-27-2016, 01:37 AM
Um, you're posting on a message board dedicated to a band whose music videos consist primarily of BDSM and torture porn. The most you're going "trigger" around here for being an intellectually deficient edgelord is an eyeroll.

emptydesk
07-27-2016, 01:45 AM
How boring.

newmodel87
07-27-2016, 02:27 AM
Um, you're posting on a message board dedicated to a band whose music videos consist primarily of BDSM and torture porn. The most you're going "trigger" around here for being an intellectually deficient edgelord is an eyeroll.

Clearly as evidenced by various threads on said board and anywhere else for that matter, people are willing to look past ironies when convenient.

But oh, is this my cue to roll my eyes?

newmodel87
07-27-2016, 02:29 AM
How boring.

Things wouldn't be so boring if you weren't so apathetic.

emptydesk
07-27-2016, 03:37 AM
You really think I'm going to bite? Go fold a box.

Sarah K
07-27-2016, 09:22 AM
Um, you're posting on a message board dedicated to a band whose music videos consist primarily of BDSM and torture porn. The most you're going "trigger" around here for being an intellectually deficient edgelord is an eyeroll.

I LOVE THIS POST

Discussing this on facebook. Who do you guys feel the better public speaker is? Bill Clinton or Barack Obama?

allegro
07-27-2016, 09:29 AM
Discussing this on facebook. Who do you guys feel the better public speaker is? Bill Clinton or Barack Obama?
I've always loved Bill Clinton's public speaking skills, although he hasn't always been great; he's honed that skill over the years. He's great at ad libbing, bringing additional content on the fly.

Both are brilliant debaters and orators. Bill's style obviously reflects southern culture a bit more.

Sarah K
07-27-2016, 09:34 AM
I won't even be able to watch Thursday night, as I have to go to this dinner at school. I AM VERY UPSET.

allegro
07-27-2016, 09:39 AM
I can't watch tonight, we're seeing Diana Ross. But I'll be DVR'ing it.

orestes
07-27-2016, 11:10 AM
For all those offended, my bad. I should have issued a trigger warning.

No one was offended in the least, sweetie.

Deepvoid
07-27-2016, 11:39 AM
Trump said on O'Reilly that he would increase the federal minimum wage to $10/hr, flip-flopping on the subject as he previously opposed a raise.
Speaking on the subject, Trump said the following

"You need to help people and I know it's not very Republican to say but you need to help people"

Obviously, the "not very Republican" comment is likely attributed to the subject of raising the minimum wage but the way he framed it is absolute pure gold. He basically trolled the entire GOP with a liberal talking point in one sentence.

allegro
07-27-2016, 12:24 PM
Trump said on O'Reilly that he would increase the federal minimum wage to $10/hr, flip-flopping on the subject as he previously opposed a raise.
Speaking on the subject, Trump said the following

"You need to help people and I know it's not very Republican to say but you need to help people"

Obviously, the "not very Republican" comment is likely attributed to the subject of raising the minimum wage but the way he framed it is absolute pure gold. He basically trolled the entire GOP with a liberal talking point in one sentence.

Yeah, he's said that before during the campaign, not related to the minimum wage but related to social security and healthcare (http://www.ontheissues.org/Archive/2016_CNN_GOP_Town_Hall_Health_Care.htm). It's why the Republicans said he's "not really a Republican."

But it ends up he's been lying about not cutting Social Security (http://crooksandliars.com/2016/05/surprise-surprise-trumps-been-lying-about).

theruiner
07-27-2016, 02:14 PM
Trump publicly requests that Russia hack Hilary's e-mails.

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/27/487634941/trump-calls-on-russia-to-hack-into-clintons-emails

This guy is fucking unbelievable.

Jinsai
07-27-2016, 02:31 PM
Trump publicly requests that Russia hack Hilary's e-mails.

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/27/487634941/trump-calls-on-russia-to-hack-into-clintons-emails

This guy is fucking unbelievable.

I saw this a few minutes ago. I'm still in shock.

To publicly request Russian espionage as a means to attack a political opponent is fucking treason.

theruiner
07-27-2016, 02:38 PM
To publicly request Russian espionage as a means to attack a political opponent is fucking treason.That's what I was thinking, but I didn't want to say it and look stupid if I was technically wrong. But it sure seems like pretty blatant treason to me.

This should be the end of his campaign. This should be the end for Donald Trump. But it won't. Progressives will scream about it (rightfully so) but I get the feeling nothing will be done and it will be yet another blip on the political landscape. Which is outrageous and insane, but would not surprise me in the least.

Jinsai
07-27-2016, 02:43 PM
That's what I was thinking, but I didn't want to say it and look stupid if I was technically wrong. But it sure seems like pretty blatant treason to me.

This should be the end of his campaign. This should be the end for Donald Trump. But it won't. Progressives will scream about it (rightfully so) but I get the feeling nothing will be done and it will be yet another blip on the political landscape. Which is outrageous and insane, but would not surprise me in the least.

It's like Watergate, but carried out in plain sight. You don't ask our former cold-war-enemies to tamper with our election process. It's fucking madness.

Sarah K
07-27-2016, 03:10 PM
http://qz.com/743526/hillary-clintons-husband-wore-a-fetching-pantsuit-to-honor-her-nomination-for-us-president/

*applause*

allegro
07-27-2016, 03:15 PM
It's like Watergate, but carried out in plain sight. You don't ask our former cold-war-enemies to tamper with our election process. It's fucking madness.

Well, if this is asking them to find "deleted" emails which were actually PERSONAL emails on HRC's server (that's what was deleted), this is inviting invasion of privacy. If he wants Russia to locate emails of the State Dept., that's Sedition (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385).

I am SO sick of hearing Trump saying that Obama is incompetent, etc. It's ridiculous.

Then Trump just said "something doesn't 'jive' re Obama's views of the world. Um ... dude, that's "jibe (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jibe)." Jive is not the word you meant. Now who's incompetent?

Frozen Beach
07-27-2016, 06:14 PM
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/27/12299860/donald-trump-treason-russia-hack (http://www.vox.com/2016/7/27/12299860/donald-trump-treason-russia-hack)

Sarah K
07-27-2016, 09:04 PM
JOEEEEEE *heart eyes emoji*

I wonder if he does or will regret not going for it this round.

allegro
07-27-2016, 09:19 PM
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/27/12299860/donald-trump-treason-russia-hack (http://www.vox.com/2016/7/27/12299860/donald-trump-treason-russia-hack)

Not treason but he did appear to violate at least a few codes:


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2386

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385

Leviathant
07-27-2016, 09:52 PM
#1 - Russia has not been properly attributed to the hack

It's been a couple of days. What's your opinion on this (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack) now?

Frozen Beach
07-27-2016, 09:58 PM
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/757922506741121024

Wikileaks basically state there's two parties involved: those who hacked it, and those who handed the information over.

orestes
07-27-2016, 10:11 PM
Didn't Julian Assange say that it was a deliberate leak to hurt his "personal enemy"- his words, not mine-Hillary Clinton?

Jinsai
07-27-2016, 10:25 PM
Didn't Julian Assange say that it was a deliberate leak to hurt his "personal enemy"- his words, not mine-Hillary Clinton?
The timing of the leak makes it pretty apparent that it was intended to hurt Clinton

Dra508
07-27-2016, 11:30 PM
JOEEEEEE *heart eyes emoji*

I wonder if he does or will regret not going for it this round.

Now who you choosing for best orator?

Best use of the word malarkey.

Sarah K
07-27-2016, 11:58 PM
Now who you choosing for best orator?

Best use of the word malarkey.

Firmly on team Obama now. He just destroyed everyone.

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 12:22 AM
It's been a couple of days. What's your opinion on this (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack) now?

Some things to be aware of before I get into the tech...

1 - The DNC told a reporter very early into this story that their game plan was to focus on the Russia aspect in hopes that it would overshadow the actual contents of the leak.

2 - The US Govt is still saying that their suspicion of Russia is very strong, but they dont have evidence to attribute it. (Even the Sony hack has some evidence linking NK... which we all know is still improbable)

3 - The US Govt said that they have no idea if this leak was the result of routine hacking operations, or a targeted operation specifically to attack Hillary. So if you are willing to dismiss the email contents as expected and routine (which they really aren't) then why not dismiss the hacking has routine? This kind of thing has been happening all the time, the only difference is that it usually isn't on display so obviously to the public. Foreign govts have been hacking our elections and manipulating them. There is a lot of evidence of it. Our own Govt is telling us that there is routine hacking that happens.


As for the tech... there is a lot of discussion about the "breadcrumbs" that make Russia seem suspect. Some of those breadcrumbs are also suspiciously blatant. An example is a Russian VPN used in one aspect... that would be some serious amateur hour stuff coming from the FSB. So there is a lot of question about the reliability of the breadcrumbs. Disinformation through "fake breadcrumbs" is to be expected in most decent hacking operations though. So it needs time to analyze. You know who could tell us the answer really easy? THE NSA! But they fucking won't :( It very well may be Russia, but there are a LOT of other smaller actors who have motivation and the skill to do this.

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 12:25 AM
I do find the non technical discussion around this pretty amazing. HRC defenders are basically saying that transparency of the DNC is a weapon against the DNC. How fucked is your party if transparency is damaging AND the party supporters speak out against the transparency "because of the hackers motives." There is so much Bush era flashback happening now.

botley
07-28-2016, 12:36 AM
overshadow the actual contents of the leak
What contents, exactly? Personally, I haven't seen anything scandalous in these e-mails, it's pretty typical political office chatter and some griping/wishful shade-throwing at Johnny-come-lately Democrat outsider Sanders. Nothing I wouldn't expect from a major party; the Republicans' chatter is likely much the same in many respects. I'm not saying we should read their e-mail too, but I bet it would be no more or less incriminating, on balance — plus the chatter about Trump would be pretty hilarious.


The US Govt said that they have no idea if this leak was the result of routine hacking operations, or a targeted operation specifically to attack Hillary. So if you are willing to dismiss the email contents as expected and routine (which they really aren't) then why not dismiss the hacking has routine?
The hacking may have been routine, but the timing of its release was targeted specifically to attack Clinton right before her nomination. This much is absolutely clear.


It very well may be Russia, but there are a LOT of other smaller actors who have motivation and the skill to do this.
Yes but would any of them benefit as directly from a Trump victory as Putin's regime would?

allegro
07-28-2016, 12:38 AM
As for the tech... there is a lot of discussion about the "breadcrumbs" that make Russia seem suspect. Some of those breadcrumbs are also suspiciously blatant. An example is a Russian VPN used in one aspect... that would be some serious amateur hour stuff coming from the FSB. So there is a lot of question about the reliability of the breadcrumbs. Disinformation through "fake breadcrumbs" is to be expected in most decent hacking operations though. So it needs time to analyze. You know who could tell us the answer really easy? THE NSA! But they fucking won't :( It very well may be Russia, but there are a LOT of other smaller actors who have motivation and the skill to do this.
Yes, but CrowdStrike is very aware of things like this, they aren't stupid. All of the info so far isn't coming from the FBI, it's coming from CrowdStrike, plus Mandiant, Fidelis (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cyber-researchers-confirm-russian-government-hack-of-democratic-national-committee/2016/06/20/e7375bc0-3719-11e6-9ccd-d6005beac8b3_story.html) and ThreatConnect (https://www.threatconnect.com/tapping-into-democratic-national-committee/).

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 12:40 AM
@Leviathant (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1) - This is a direct response to the motherboard article you linked to about "all signs pointing to Russia" that does a great job of fact checking it and explaining why that narrative isn't on solid ground:
Can Facts Slow The DNC Breach Runaway Train? (https://medium.com/@jeffreycarr/can-facts-slow-the-dnc-breach-runaway-train-lets-try-14040ac68a55#.wfqx7vgu9)



And even motherboard has an updated article that walks things back quite a bit, though it is much less thorough.
DNC Hack: What We Know, And What We Still Don’t Know (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dnc-hack-what-we-know-and-what-we-still-dont-know)



edit: allegro, botley definitely read these.

allegro
07-28-2016, 12:50 AM
@Leviathant (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1) - This is a direct response to the motherboard article you linked to about "all signs pointing to Russia" that does a great job of fact checking it and explaining why that narrative isn't on solid ground:
Can Facts Slow The DNC Breach Runaway Train? (https://medium.com/@jeffreycarr/can-facts-slow-the-dnc-breach-runaway-train-lets-try-14040ac68a55#.wfqx7vgu9)



And even motherboard has an updated article that walks things back quite a bit, though it is much less thorough.
DNC Hack: What We Know, And What We Still Don’t Know (http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dnc-hack-what-we-know-and-what-we-still-dont-know)



edit: allegro, botley definitely read these.

I read those but I like the ThreatConnect article better.

Deepvoid
07-28-2016, 09:18 AM
This ad gave me goosebumps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qznPnKG9zko

Sarah K
07-28-2016, 12:23 PM
Whoever is responsible for the videos before each speaker comes out deserves some sort of award. STOP MAKING ME HAVE EMOTIONS

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 12:42 PM
What contents, exactly? Personally, I haven't seen anything scandalous in these e-mails, it's pretty typical political office chatter and some griping/wishful shade-throwing at Johnny-come-lately Democrat outsider Sanders. Nothing I wouldn't expect from a major party; the Republicans' chatter is likely much the same in many respects. I'm not saying we should read their e-mail too, but I bet it would be no more or less incriminating, on balance — plus the chatter about Trump would be pretty hilarious.

Giving federal appointments for donors strikes me as a tiiiiiny bit beyond "typical office chatter" ... for example. There is plenty more, if you look. There will also be plenty more coming, so trying to preemptively bury this is silly.






The hacking may have been routine, but the timing of its release was targeted specifically to attack Clinton right before her nomination. This much is absolutely clear.


"BUT" you say, as if that part isn't also routine. Targeted use of information to harm political candidates is routine. The only thing not routine is how visible it is being done now.

But no, it's not "absolutely clear" that the timing was to target HRC. Wikileaks released the info to the world, not the hackers. We don't know how long Wikileaks had the info before releasing, so maybe they released ASAP. Or maybe Wikileaks specifically held it for the convention. What news story isn't released with the goal and timing of maximum attention? "but it wasn't just maximum attention, it was maximum damage" you will say, and I will say that this is unknown (circling back to you saying it is "absolutely clear").




Yes but would any of them benefit as directly from a Trump victory as Putin's regime would?
Assuming that is even true, that doesn't extend beyond creating a suspect. It's not attribution.


There is a very strong effort to connect this to Russia and make it entirely about Russia. So many of the usual skeptics have fallen for this. Luckily, people like Glenn Greenwald have held true and are calling out the McCarthyism on display. He's a great person to do it because he hates Trump and actively clashes with Wikileaks and Russia.

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 12:56 PM
I saw this a few minutes ago. I'm still in shock.

To publicly request Russian espionage as a means to attack a political opponent is fucking treason.
You dems have lost you shit this election. Completely fucking lost it. This is nonsense hysteria that pairs with Fox News.




"So, literally, the lead story in the New York Times today suggests, and other people have similarly suggested it, that Trump was literally putting in a request to Putin for the Russians to cyberattack the FBI, the United States government, or get Hillary Clinton’s emails. That is such unmitigated bullshit. What that was was an offhanded, trolling comment designed to make some kind of snide reference to the need to find Hillary’s emails. He wasn’t directing the Russians, in some genuine, literal way, to go on some cybermission to find Hillary’s emails. If he wanted to request the Russians to do that, why would he do it in some offhanded way in a press conference? It was a stupid, reckless comment that he made elevated into treason." - Glenn Greenwald

Khrz
07-28-2016, 01:12 PM
The problem is, Trump has this tendency to be completely unpredictable whether he's serious about his shit, or trolling, or ready to go through with it.

Like that stupid birth certificate story for instance. You just never know when he's merely trolling or when he's really demanding shit. There's no self awareness, no personal boundaries, no dignity that would assure everyone he's joking.

People lose their mind about bad jokes when there's no way to tell whether it's a joke or not. When it comes to Trump, just because it's ridiculous doesn't mean it's not dead serious.

allegro
07-28-2016, 01:44 PM
You dems have lost you shit this election. Completely fucking lost it. This is nonsense hysteria that pairs with Fox News.




"So, literally, the lead story in the New York Times today suggests, and other people have similarly suggested it, that Trump was literally putting in a request to Putin for the Russians to cyberattack the FBI, the United States government, or get Hillary Clinton’s emails. That is such unmitigated bullshit. What that was was an offhanded, trolling comment designed to make some kind of snide reference to the need to find Hillary’s emails. He wasn’t directing the Russians, in some genuine, literal way, to go on some cybermission to find Hillary’s emails. If he wanted to request the Russians to do that, why would he do it in some offhanded way in a press conference? It was a stupid, reckless comment that he made elevated into treason." - Glenn Greenwald

Look, it's not "hysteria" (look up the etymology of that word, btw (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hysterical)), it's just pointing out that this guy is a loose cannon, he makes statements that COULD be taken literally, and in accordance with the U.S. Code, that's enough. He's running for the President of the United States, what is considered by many as the leader of the free world. He has to be careful about what he says. And he never is careful. What used to be funny just isn't funny anymore. It can now violate various codes and laws. The above quote used the word "literally," twice (http://theweek.com/articles/466957/how-wrong-definition-literally-sneaked-into-dictionary); and that's the problem; every single thing that Trump says now is going to be taken "literally (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=literal)."

DF118
07-28-2016, 01:50 PM
Can he be officially indicted if there are further leaks? I've seen a lot of argument this is / isn't treason, but little discussion that he could be charged for it.

allegro
07-28-2016, 02:00 PM
Can he be officially indicted if there are further leaks? I've seen a lot of argument this is / isn't treason, but little discussion that he could be charged for it.

He would have been immediately arrested had this been during the Cold War, that's for sure. We have a strained relationship with Russia, we currently have sanctions against Russia due to their activities in the Crimea (whereas Trump said he wants us to stay out of it, since Putin lavished praised on Trump) (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/18/politics/donald-trump-praises-defends-vladimir-putin/). So his "joke" comments aren't defined as treason under the code but they could be defined as other violations under the code if he becomes President. And now there are considerations as to whether or not he should receive briefings during the election.

Comments like these, no bueno. Nooooooooo bueno (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/29/us/politics/donald-trump-russia-obama-putin.html). Nobody in the Military is EVER allowed to say anything like this without being courtmartialed. Trump isn't even running against Obama.

implanted_microchip
07-28-2016, 02:29 PM
there are considerations as to whether or not he should receive briefings during the election.

Elected or not, knowing he's going to be getting those kinds of briefings is utterly fucking horrifying to me

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 02:43 PM
Look, it's not "hysteria" (look up the etymology of that word, btw (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hysterical)), it's just pointing out that this guy is a loose cannon, he makes statements that COULD be taken literally, and in accordance with the U.S. Code, that's enough. He's running for the President of the United States, what is considered by many as the leader of the free world. He has to be careful about what he says. And he never is careful. What used to be funny just isn't funny anymore. It can now violate various codes and laws. The above quote used the word "literally," twice (http://theweek.com/articles/466957/how-wrong-definition-literally-sneaked-into-dictionary); and that's the problem; every single thing that Trump says now is going to be taken "literally (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=literal)."

I look forward to your literal interpretation with zero attention to context to be applied to Obama. Maybe we can start at things like the correspondent's dinner! You probably have that list ready to roll because you have maintained this view and applied it equally to all presidents and presidential candidates. right?

allegro
07-28-2016, 02:56 PM
I look forward to your literal interpretation with zero attention to context to be applied to Obama. Maybe we can start at things like the correspondent's dinner! You probably have that list ready to roll because you have maintained this view and applied it equally to all presidents and presidential candidates. right?

The "jokes" you previously referred to at the correspondent's dinner were not made by Obama and Obama visibly winced at said "jokes." The person making said "jokes" weren't intending them be just jokes; he was intending to slip in some very serious matters into an otherwise silly fundraising night. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2016/05/01/larry-wilmores-harshest-burns-in-his-white-house-correspondents-dinner-speech/) (Irony)

No candidate or President made jokes like THIS, come on, Trump crosses lines every single day because he isn't doesn't understand that his words have to be carefully measured.

DF118
07-28-2016, 03:08 PM
No candidate or President made jokes like THIS, come on, Trump crosses lines every single day because he isn't doesn't understand that his words have to be carefully measured.

Either that, or he's saying them quite deliberately because he's a con artist.

allegro
07-28-2016, 03:16 PM
Either that, or he's saying them quite deliberately because he's a con artist.

No, I really think it's because he's not a lawyer, he has no legal background, it doesn't appear that he has even read the Constitution, let alone taken any Pol Sci classes, he is now saying that he wants to get rid of the Geneva Convention so it appears that he hasn't studied history, either. At least Reagan came with a shitload of experience in governing and union contract negotiation and he totally understood foreign policy concepts and national security concepts, etc. Trump comes with executive experience, but he doesn't even want to LEARN how to be President; he wants to reconstruct the role of President to fit his own ideas, and that's not how it works.

I used to cut Trump more slack, thinking guys like Romney didn't like him because Trump was non-establishment, but now I'm seeing what they mean; the whole "Mexican Judge" mess showed me how stupid Trump really is when it comes to how this country was deliberately founded; he doesn't care; he's going to run it his way, disregarding the "rules." He says he is going to make new rules? That's not even allowed per the Constitution.

The GOP should have let Romney back in; now they're paying the price.

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 03:28 PM
The fact that Trump's fans all knew it was a joke is all you really need to know about this ridiculous story.


Anyway, Russia... It's funny how Romney got shit for calling Russia our biggest threat. And now we have Dems, with no actual evidence, making Russia our big baddie. Thing is, Hillary is going to have to actually do something about it if we invest this much into the narrative and then she gets elected.




in which ETS is more pro-Clinton than WaPo: Clinton has now made Democrats the anti-Russia party (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2016/07/27/clinton-has-now-made-democrats-the-anti-russia-party/\)

Khrz
07-28-2016, 03:51 PM
The fact that Trump's fans all knew it was a joke is all you really need to know about this ridiculous story.



Oooooooh, like those pranksters who were yelling "INVADE FRANCE NEXT" when we refused to go to Iraq, oh the fun we had.

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that supporters of any kind will go to any length to cover for their challenger, no matter how ridiculous or offensive it gets. After all, it's just a prank, bro.

allegro
07-28-2016, 04:07 PM
The fact that Trump's fans all knew it was a joke is all you really need to know about this ridiculous story.
Yeah, it shows that his fans are idiots. They also thought his poking fun at a disabled reporter was a joke. Har har har. At some point, he's gotta stop making these "jokes" and start taking this shit seriously.

Actually, don't. The more he says stupid shit like this, the more he only gets his groupie votes and loses other votes.

See, this isn't really about Russia or if they are a 'threat." Right now, Russia is under U.S. sanctions. They aren't perceived as a direct "threat" but we have strained relations with them and we don't like Putin very much. We know that there are hackers in their country causing trouble. Ditto for China. So "joking" about shit like that isn't funny when you want to be President of the United States. If Obama made that joke, the Republicans would be calling for his impeachment. It's just stupid. It's not funny. It's unprofessional, it's dumb, it's immature. And plenty of Republicans have been agreeing. He shouldn't have dove into this; he should have just shut up about it, or said something (god forbid) intelligent.

Jinsai
07-28-2016, 04:08 PM
The fact that Trump's fans all knew it was a joke is all you really need to know about this ridiculous story.

Oh fuck that. We're now deferring to Trump fans as to whether or not Trump encouraged espionage from the country we were in a nuclear standoff with? You are seriously underselling how fucked up and unprecedented this is. He invited Russian hackers to hack his political opponent during an election cycle, and you laugh this off because his dumbfuck fans disregard it as a harmless joke? Could you imagine how fucking horrifying this joke would have been during the height of the Cold War? Now, look at how Russia is currently engaging us in a new proxy war, and realize that anyone who thinks this is a harmless joke has absolutely no context.

Deepvoid
07-28-2016, 04:19 PM
The fact that Trump's fans all knew it was a joke is all you really need to know about this ridiculous story.


So it's now the norm to joke about stuff like that during a presser? Perfectly fine for a POTUS candidate to do this?
If Obama had said the exact same thing, the GOP would be all over this. Conservative pundits would be fuming. Heads would be exploding.

Now because it's Trump and he's like "I was just being sarcastic" you guys consider this the new standard in terms of being authentic and honest.

You guys will become a regressive country in no time if you continue down that path.

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 04:56 PM
If Obama had said the exact same thing, the GOP would be all over this. Conservative pundits would be fuming. Heads would be exploding.


If Obama made that joke, the Republicans would be calling for his impeachment.
and the Dems wouldn't say shit when Obama made that joke. thats what you are both saying, right?



It's just stupid. It's not funny. It's unprofessional, it's dumb, it's immature. And plenty of Republicans have been agreeing. He shouldn't have dove into this; he should have just shut up about it, or said something (god forbid) intelligent.
sure. but thats not OMGTREASON

Jinsai
07-28-2016, 05:04 PM
and the Dems wouldn't say shit when Obama made that joke. thats what you are both saying, right?

Stop stringing this up as partisan allegiance. Things are kind of insane right now, but we've been listening to endless attacks on Democrats for ridiculous things. Oh no, Bill Clinton got an extramarital blow job, let me clutch my pearls and scream for his impeachment. There were a handful of reasonable cases to demand that Bush Jr actually face impeachment charges, but nobody in the Democratic party wasted the country's time boo hooing about it endlessly. Hillary used a personal email account to discuss issues that were classified. Let's hear people moan about this for months... but then Trump asks for Russian hackers to please hack her email and divulge the contents because he hopes it will make her look bad...

Or maybe it was just a shitty joke? But no, the double standard of what we get outraged about and won't shut up about here is not on the same level. This is fucked up. And yes, if Obama jokingly asked for Russian hackers to leak Trump's emails (or even his tax returns) yes, I would be outraged.

Frozen Beach
07-28-2016, 05:08 PM
It's just stupid. It's not funny. It's unprofessional, it's dumb, it's immature..
And it's making headlines. And it's giving him publicity, what he thrives off of. And it put Hillary's emails back in the news, which is probably what he wanted.

He's the living embodiment of a troll and people keep feeding him.

Jinsai
07-28-2016, 05:14 PM
Well, it's pretty easy to be an effective troll if you're a major-party candidate for the office of US President... especially if you don't ban the fucking troll when he coyly engages in horrifying shit tactics like this. Unfortunately, our political process is dustier and more dated than internet discourse.

emptydesk
07-28-2016, 05:46 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoeDkF1WYAAa8KI.jpg

Dude can't even type.

DigitalChaos
07-28-2016, 05:55 PM
Stop stringing this up as partisan allegiance. Things are kind of insane right now, but we've been listening to endless attacks on Democrats for ridiculous things. Oh no, Bill Clinton got an extramarital blow job, let me clutch my pearls and scream for his impeachment. There were a handful of reasonable cases to demand that Bush Jr actually face impeachment charges, but nobody in the Democratic party wasted the country's time boo hooing about it endlessly. Hillary used a personal email account to discuss issues that were classified. Let's hear people moan about this for months... but then Trump asks for Russian hackers to please hack her email and divulge the contents because he hopes it will make her look bad...

Or maybe it was just a shitty joke? But no, the double standard of what we get outraged about and won't shut up about here is not on the same level. This is fucked up. And yes, if Obama jokingly asked for Russian hackers to leak Trump's emails (or even his tax returns) yes, I would be outraged.

congrats, you are one of the few.

meanwhile, how do you feel about Democrats.gif?

http://i.imgur.com/2tqXuwI.gif


point being, the Dems are a ridiculous mutant right now. The endless defense of Hillary and people jumping to support her is so amazing to me. There are so many examples. Kaine is absolutely loved by the Oil industry. etc etc etc

allegro
07-28-2016, 06:26 PM
and the Dems wouldn't say shit when Obama made that joke. thats what you are both saying, right?
Again, I don't know what Obama joke to which you are referring.

And I never said what Trump said was "treason" (which is very specifically defined in the Code) nor do I think anybody in law defined it as that.

allegro
07-28-2016, 06:34 PM
http://i.imgur.com/2tqXuwI.gif

You know, I SAW THAT HAPPEN and it's being taken out of context. During the roll call, certain people were using that as a time to stuff signs in front of people's faces trying to get on TV while they were trying to get through the roll call (delegate count). While I fully support that person's Palestine sentiments, that wasn't the time to shove a sign by the delegate's face while he was trying to read the count. A woman in the group pulled the sign out of the way because it was one person trying to railroad attention from that guy reading the count for that state. It happened during the Puerto Rico count, too (http://remezcla.com/culture/puerto-rico-delegation-2016-dnc-oscar-lopez-rivera/). There were 2 more days to hold up signs in front of cameras. Those signs were everywhere.

Supporting the nominated candidate happens AT EVERY FUCKING CONVENTION, SINCE THE BEGINNING OF CONVENTIONS. This isn't some new Hillary thing. It's what is done at these conventions. I have watched them since I was a kid in the 60s, they are always this way. It isn't like Dems suddenly drank the Hillary KoolAid.