Kanye West

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[nowyouknow3c]

Meh, I would have to disagree. Kanye is ok, but the best song really???:confused:

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[bobbie solo]

pretty damn good show, for a hip hop show of course. they are up there for over 2 hours, just the two of them, playing hit after hit after hit. some interesting visuals too. not worth the disgusting ticket price (i luckily didnt pay), but a solid show. hope u like Watch The Throne (i think it's mostly shit), cuz you get alot of it.

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[Kid Charlemagne]

They were in Houston last night, but I'm broke and I heard the show was nuts. I saw Yeezy do his thing in September and he killed it. The show was ridiculous and over the top and very pretentious, but it was fun and you could tell he was having a hell of a time. I like Watch the Throne though, not as good as MBDTF, but WAY better than Blueprint 3.

[bobbie solo]

yeha it was 2.5 hrs when i saw them at MSG.

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[Space Suicide]

I really got into this guy in 2009. 808's is fantastic and every album he's done has been solid. He's a good rapper and one of my favorites but ever since My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy he's become even more of a prick. The fact he's dating that moron Kim Kardashian now makes him even more of a dumbass than he ever was before if you ask me.

Remember this hilarity?:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUzLpO1kxI

I love Mike Myers reaction.

[Presideo]

I think Kanye is a great artist - sure, he's a total douchebag, but I assume most musicians are douchebags; Kanye just gets more media attention than most, enabling him to show off his douchebaggery.

I liken most of his latest albums to Michael Bay films. They're big-budget, in-your-face, summer blockbusters, with levels of grandiose that other artists, like Lady Gaga, wish they could pull off. Also, unlike most other rap artists, he can make consistently great albums. His peers seem happy with making a couple radio-friendly singles every other year, and use any flavor-of-the-week producer they can find to get a hit. Kanye's albums actually have a sonic vision with minimal filler, though.

[thevoid99]

http://news.yahoo.com/kanye-west-kim-kardashian-expecting-1st-child-061337286.html

Oh the humanity.

[Conan The Barbarian]

I really got into this guy in 2009. 808's is fantastic and every album he's done has been solid. He's a good rapper and one of my favorites but ever since My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy he's become even more of a prick. The fact he's dating that moron Kim Kardashian now makes him even more of a dumbass than he ever was before if you ask me.

Remember this hilarity?:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUzLpO1kxI

I love Mike Myers reaction.


This reminded me when I was with my friend Steven (who is black), we were watching when this hit. He just says in a low tone of voice, " No one is never going to take a black man serious ever again."

We were both high of our asses.

[thefragile_jake]

Started listening to 808's and Fantasy again the past couple of days. Kanye West, aside from being my favorite rapper, is also one of my top ten artists of all time. I got into a discussion with a friend of mine about my opinion on Mr. West and how it differs from people who are not in his camp as much as perhaps I am. That some people either find him an incredible dumbass or others find him this amazing, creative almost evil genius. I like West's personality and I think the things he does just adds more to his image, it may not be for everyone but hey...such is his life I suppose.

Sometimes I go back and forth about which is my favorite Kanye record, I love 808s so much because of how experimental of a record for him it is. A lot of people gave him shit for using auto tune at the time but to me it symbolized the cold, robotic nature of the record. It's got this almost industrial Prince vibe to it and it still sounds amazing. You can completely tell it's influence on a lot of acts like The Weeknd and Frank Ocean for sure.

MBDTF was met with INCREDIBLE praise when it was released and listening to it again makes you remember why. It's put together flawlessly with incredible production, guest spots who do some of their best work lacking even in their own records (I'm looking at you Jay-Z) and just feels like one of those amazing listens from beginning to end. Only Kanye West could do an almost prog-rap album about how fucked up his shit is and make it one of the best albums I've ever heard.

I'm really interested to see where he goes next, it's gonna be really tough to follow MBDTF but what I like about Kanye is he always seems hungry...people write off his jealously and bitterness to competiton as being a little baby...but that just fuels his fire to create better work in my opinion.

[carpenoctem]

808's was my first and is still my favorite. Who knows what the real Kanye West is like behind closed doors, but the image he maintains is entertaining. I'm excited to hear what he does next too, but I'm not frothing at the mouth or anything.

[thefragile_jake]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Jkw6k54HA

At a recent show, Kanye screamed his head off at the end of "Touch the Sky". Again, it's just kind of weird, quirky shit like this that keeps me interested in him.

Some of it almost reminds me of the distorted evil howl towards the end of "Come to Daddy" from Aphex Twin.

[bobbie solo]

love his music. absolutely amazing hip hop producer/arranger. solid enough commercial rapper. Decent live. dont ever want to read or hear him outside of his music.

[thefragile_jake]

"In late April, West visited Def Jam's New York offices to preview the disc. Sources familiar with the project say it's even darker and more twisted than 2010's My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, with one song that drew comparisons to Nine Inch Nails." (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/kanye-west-has-dope-music-on-the-way-collaborators-say-20130506)

[Space Suicide]

"In late April, West visited Def Jam's New York offices to preview the disc. Sources familiar with the project say it's even darker and more twisted than 2010's My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, with one song that drew comparisons to Nine Inch Nails." (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/kanye-west-has-dope-music-on-the-way-collaborators-say-20130506)

I love how these type of articles toss around comparisons like a joke but this is still amusing and good news nonetheless.

[thefragile_jake]

Agreed, the possibility of a darker and more intense record from Kanye is something I like for sure though.

[Space Suicide]

Agreed, the possibility of a darker and more intense record from Kanye is something I like for sure though.

Should be dark and tormenting considering he's with Kim Kardashian now and is expecting a baby soon. Then again, I feel sorry for the kid somewhat as well.

[koz-ivan]

Started listening to 808's and Fantasy again the past couple of days. Kanye West, aside from being my favorite rapper, is also one of my top ten artists of all time. I got into a discussion with a friend of mine about my opinion on Mr. West and how it differs from people who are not in his camp as much as perhaps I am. That some people either find him an incredible dumbass or others find him this amazing, creative almost evil genius. I like West's personality and I think the things he does just adds more to his image, it may not be for everyone but hey...such is his life I suppose.

for some reason i cringe when i consider kayne on anyone's top artists of all time lists, at the same time i totally get the "creative almost evil genius" description, he is that, and he doesn't seem afraid to just go in whatever direction he so desires at any moment.

love the 808 record, really watch the throne was the only album of his that didn't go directly into my heavy rotation...

[Jinsai]

well, ok, but, My Dark Twisted Self Absorbed Fantasy is the most overrated hip hop album of all time.

Of ALLLLLLLLL TIME

[aggroculture]

I can't say I've ever been wowed by anything I've heard by Kanye West.
Gold Digger is a cool song, that's all I've got.
Where do I start?

[Space Suicide]

I can't say I've ever been wowed by anything I've heard by Kanye West.
Gold Digger is a cool song, that's all I've got.
Where do I start?

Graduation and/or 808's and Heartbreak

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[Magtig]

I can't say I've ever been wowed by anything I've heard by Kanye West.
Gold Digger is a cool song, that's all I've got.
Where do I start?
I'd highly recommend his latest, My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. Kanye may be an asshole, but he actually has the goods to back it up. MBDTF is virtually guaranteed to become a hip hop classic, and the critical response (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Beautiful_Dark_Twisted_Fantasy#Critical_respons e) to it (for what it's worth) was one of the highest I've ever seen (94% on metacritic). For me it's a way more fascinating album, especially musically, than his earlier work (which can take sharp turns into Cheeseville).

[gorast]

Kanye gave a surprise show earlier tonight, debuting new material...inside of a giant translucent pyramid. (http://pitchfork.com/news/50760-kanye-west-performed-new-material-inside-a-pyramid-at-surprise-new-york-show/)
I fucking love the ridiculous shit he does in his shows.

[thefragile_jake]

I really like the NIN/Daft Punk influence in the heavier electronic song but the other auto tuned ballad that's going around is a little confusing. I loved the auto tuned aspect on 808's because it fits the robotic, cold atmosphere the record is trying to portray. Kanye and auto tune go together because I like how it's usually incredibly emotional and human aspect stuff he's singing about which has a juxtaposition thing going on. This new ballad I think is obviously about Kim and I don't really care for the refrain "Baby, you're awesome." Guess we'll have to wait and see what else comes out!

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[gorast]

It's certainly a very Kanye way to premiere new music. Wonder if he'll do it tomorrow on SNL.

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[richardp]

I'm in Chicago all week and am getting ready to head out to the one at the Art Institute Museum. Pretty excited. Shit like this NEVER happens in KC so it'll be neat to actually get to participate in something like this. Avoiding all the videos online so far until I see it in person.

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[Presideo]

Kanye is considered innovative for projecting media onto walls, something my math teacher did every day in class...

Still excited for new music from him - the song sounded pretty damn good (hope he plays it on SNL tonight)

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[richardp]

They ended up projecting it onto those spitting fountains at the one I went to last night, and it was awesome. Like 200 people showed up to this particular one and all freaked the fuck out when they realized it'd be on the fountains. I heard the one at the Six Corners was pure chaos though, and traffic had to be shut down because several hundred people overtook the whole area. So awesome.

This is New Slaves on the spitting fountains:
http://telly.com/NIGU08

[Magtig]

No fucking way... the new album is called, "Yeezus (http://consequenceofsound.net/2013/05/kanye-west-to-release-new-album-yeezus-on-june-18th/)."

HAHAHA!!! I don't even know what the hell to think of that, but it cracks me up.

[allegro]

SNL wow that was great!

[Space Suicide]

I'm watching New Slaves on SNL now. I heard the name Bobby Boucher and thought it was hilariously awkward.

I think he's trying too hard with this one.

[thefragile_jake]

Very Shabazz Palaces sounding track, I cannot wait for this record..

[Presideo]

Enjoyed both songs - they sounded like beefed-up versions of Death Grips tracks!

I guess there won't be many laid-back soul samples on the new record...

[richardp]

Black Skinhead is fucking AWESOME.

[gorast]

New songs are fucking vicious, I love it.

[thefragile_jake]

Black Skinhead is fucking AWESOME.

I completely agree. I haven't been able to stop listening to a rip of the song since...

[allegro]

Was that the 1st song he did last night? <-- edit: yes, it was

[Magtig]

Black Skinhead is fucking awesome! For those who missed it, here are both performances: http://consequenceofsound.net/2013/05/watch-kanye-west-on-saturday-night-live-performing-black-skinhead-and-new-slaves/

[Iran_Ed]

I haven't always liked Kayne, but watching his evolution as a musician has been fascinating. He's come a long way since Through The Wire.

[allegro]

I haven't always liked Kayne, but watching his evolution as a musician has been fascinating. He's come a long way since Through The Wire.
I'd forgotten about that broken jaw thing!

[screwdriver]

MTV claims melody was "culled" from The Beautiful People
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1707623/kanye-west-saturday-night-live-yeezus.jhtml

liked the new tracks

[Kid Charlemagne]

I love "Black Skinhead", thought it had a very KMFDM vibe to it. Yeezus is going to be the best birthday gift of all time...OF ALL TIME!

[october_midnight]

http://cdnl.complex.com/mp/620/400/80/0/bb/1/ffffff/6692d22b182fd49391664f236a07725e/images_/assets/CHANNEL_IMAGES/MUSIC/2013/05/yeezusofficialartwork.jpg
Fuck this pile of garbage!

[Magtig]

MTV claims melody was "culled" from The Beautiful People
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1707623/kanye-west-saturday-night-live-yeezus.jhtml

liked the new tracks
I was actually thinking it was the drums from The Beautiful People.

[screwdriver]

I was actually thinking it was the drums from The Beautiful People.

yeah, that was what I thought at first as well. odds of MTV not knowing what they're talking about? pretty high. looking forward to checking out the studio quality version

[inch]

This is terrible please wake up. Go listen to public enemy and get educated

[allegro]

We have a thread for that (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/showthread.php?t=435)

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[allegro]

At least the Manson thread isn't on top anymore.

[richardp]

At least the Manson thread isn't on top anymore.

Any one of the 5, no less.

[Kid Charlemagne]

This is terrible please wake up. Go listen to public enemy and get educated

You know, I made a similar statement on the old board about Public Enemy back when MBDTF came out, I can assure you that in those three years, I was wrong. If you can't respect what Kanye is doing as a whole, there's something terribly wrong. None of his other counterparts are doing what he's doing now. While I fuck with Drake because he uses great samples and has introspective, relatable, and thoughtful lyrics, nobody is on the level of Kanye. Wordplay, forget it, I literally laughed at how awesome the rhymes and lyric sheet for "Black Skinhead" was. I used to think Hova was the best in the game, but he can't evolve like Kanye, not to mention Hova hasn't done anything memorable since American Gangster, and that was six years ago. I don't count Watch the Throne because his bits are the weakest.

But yeah give me Yeezy over conscious hip hop like Sage Francis or Jedi Mind Tricks anyday.

[mfte]

Im very interested to hear what this guy is going to do next in terms of full album.

Dark Twisted Fantasy was a creative peak for him, perfectly reflecting his feelings on the fame and status he has achieved world wide.

Watch The Throne is mostly pure indulgance of the level of fame him and his buddy have... so whats next?

He either pulls something out of left field and treats us to something entire new and creative OR his head gets so big that he explodes it into a record of self glorification on a level that we have never seen before. Perhaps it will be a combination of both, though I m thinking that it will be more of the latter... I mean this is the guy who has been chanting I AM GOD in concert.

[thefragile_jake]

You know, I made a similar statement on the old board about Public Enemy back when MBDTF came out, I can assure you that in those three years, I was wrong. If you can't respect what Kanye is doing as a whole, there's something terribly wrong. None of his other counterparts are doing what he's doing now. While I fuck with Drake because he uses great samples and has introspective, relatable, and thoughtful lyrics, nobody is on the level of Kanye. Wordplay, forget it, I literally laughed at how awesome the rhymes and lyric sheet for "Black Skinhead" was. I used to think Hova was the best in the game, but he can't evolve like Kanye, not to mention Hova hasn't done anything memorable since American Gangster, and that was six years ago. I don't count Watch the Throne because his bits are the weakest.

But yeah give me Yeezy over conscious hip hop like Sage Francis or Jedi Mind Tricks anyday.

Dude, I completely agree with you. I think 808's and Heartbreaks was what turned me into a fan, I thought Graduation was good...but I wasn't as much into hip hop at the time as I am nowadays. 808's just had this Prince and late 80's pop feel to it that was so nostalgic to me that it made me really interested in him as an artist. I started going back and listening and loving his earlier stuff so by the time MBDTF came out, I was blown away. It was an accumulation of everything he had perfected previously and stomping into some new territory. Some people call it self indulgent, but that's just his music I think...and most popular hip hop in the first place...but that record was like an epic prog-rap record about how fucked up his shit is. I love it and still listen to it heavily. He has completely evolved and I love where he's at as an artist....these new songs showcase an intensity that literally gives me goosebumps every time I hear it. It'll be tough to top MBDTF but if anything he'll create another piece of work that sits comfortably next to his already outstanding accomplishments.

Like you, I just think none of his other counterparts are on his level as much...and I like a lot of different hip hop/rap. I enjoy underground kings like MF Doom, trap artists like Gucci Mane, conscious rap like Jedi Mind Tricks and so on and so on...and no one can touch Kanye for sure.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Dude, I completely agree with you. I think 808's and Heartbreaks was what turned me into a fan, I thought Graduation was good...but I wasn't as much into hip hop at the time as I am nowadays. 808's just had this Prince and late 80's pop feel to it that was so nostalgic to me that it made me really interested in him as an artist. I started going back and listening and loving his earlier stuff so by the time MBDTF came out, I was blown away. It was an accumulation of everything he had perfected previously and stomping into some new territory. Some people call it self indulgent, but that's just his music I think...and most popular hip hop in the first place...but that record was like an epic prog-rap record about how fucked up his shit is. I love it and still listen to it heavily. He has completely evolved and I love where he's at as an artist....these new songs showcase an intensity that literally gives me goosebumps every time I hear it. It'll be tough to top MBDTF but if anything he'll create another piece of work that sits comfortably next to his already outstanding accomplishments.

Like you, I just think none of his other counterparts are on his level as much...and I like a lot of different hip hop/rap. I enjoy underground kings like MF Doom, trap artists like Gucci Mane, conscious rap like Jedi Mind Tricks and so on and so on...and no one can touch Kanye for sure.
I'd had a soft spot for Kanye when College Dropout came out, and liked him then, didn't fully appreciate him until 808's came out. Hip Hop is weird to gauge now since it's not just something underground or strictly for the masses. Like rock and roll, it has different genres and niches that are evolving and coming through. So comparing different artists like Kanye to Pitbull is silly, much less Public Enemy to anyone now. IT's completely different than what it was 20 years ago and even 10 years ago. I mean there's tons of us who love Gucci Mane as much as we love The National, so it feels unfair to keep comparing one artist to another in hip hop since it's evolved.

I have high expectations for this album, I at least hope it's better than Cruel Summer.

[r_z]

conscious hip hop like Jedi Mind Tricks

No front, but the above statement is kinda ridiculous. There's a difference between concious rap and a white guy shouting "Allah" and "Daddy" while rapping about conspiracy theories and the murder of so called "faggots", you know?

It's fine, if you're a fan of Ye's, but your statement seems a bit single minded to me. What do you mean by "counterparts"? Rappers, who are as commercially successfull as Kanye? Rappers in general? Rappers with a concious approach? Please note, there're plenty of rappers with a concious approach, who didn't just decide to dive into their Saul Williams phase while simultaneously selling silly Nike sneakers to the people or rocking designer wear. I don't buy his "deep" commentary on materialsim, consumerism and capitalism one bit. His stuff is just not the kind of thing that normally gets the mainstream's attention, that's all. Well produced, sure. But for genuine experimental / concious rap try acts like Shabazz Palaces, Killer Mike, billy woods or Cult Favorite, for example.

[screwdriver]

No front, but the above statement is kinda ridiculous. There's a difference between concious rap and a white guy shouting "Allah" and "Daddy" while rapping about conspiracy theories and the murder of so called "faggots", you know?

It's fine, if you're a fan of Ye's, but your statement seems a bit single minded to me. What do you mean by "counterparts"? Rappers, who are as commercially successfull as Kanye? Rappers in general? Rappers with a concious approach? Please note, there're plenty of rappers with a concious approach, who didn't just decide to dive into their Saul Williams phase while simultaneously selling silly Nike sneakers to the people or rocking designer wear. I don't buy his "deep" commentary on materialsim, consumerism and capitalism one bit. His stuff is just not the kind of thing that normally gets the mainstream's attention, that's all. Well produced, sure. But for genuine experimental / concious rap try acts like Shabazz Palaces, Killer Mike, billy woods or Cult Favorite, for example.

ironic that Saul Williams licensed his track to a nike ad?

[r_z]

he did? :D

[carpenoctem]

Shabazz Palaces

Shabazz Palaces are the best active hip-hop group around right now. Waiting for everyone else to catch up. I've been reading a lot of comparisons to Ye's new songs with Shabazz Palaces but he is just not on their level at all.

[Kid Charlemagne]

No front, but the above statement is kinda ridiculous. There's a difference between concious rap and a white guy shouting "Allah" and "Daddy" while rapping about conspiracy theories and the murder of so called "faggots", you know?

It's fine, if you're a fan of Ye's, but your statement seems a bit single minded to me. What do you mean by "counterparts"? Rappers, who are as commercially successfull as Kanye? Rappers in general? Rappers with a concious approach? Please note, there're plenty of rappers with a concious approach, who didn't just decide to dive into their Saul Williams phase while simultaneously selling silly Nike sneakers to the people or rocking designer wear. I don't buy his "deep" commentary on materialsim, consumerism and capitalism one bit. His stuff is just not the kind of thing that normally gets the mainstream's attention, that's all. Well produced, sure. But for genuine experimental / concious rap try acts like Shabazz Palaces, Killer Mike, billy woods or Cult Favorite, for example.

Having family from Philadelphia, I used Jedi Mind Tricks as an example, because all I hear is how great of a rapper like Vinnie Paz is and that I suck for listening to Kanye West. This is an exact conversation and argument I've had with a cousin in December. I like Shabazz Palaces (in fact I praised the shit out of Black Up when it came out) and Killer Mike (I've been on his bandwagon since he was dropping verses on on those latter career Outkast songs). As for Saul Williams, I didn't like him before Trent toured with him and I still don't, I think he's massively overrated and boring.

[Presideo]

This is terrible please wake up. Go listen to public enemy and get educated
I have a problem with people using 90's 'gangsta rap' as some kind of golden age of hip hop that no current rapper can come close to. I find most hip hop songs created in the early 90's, from the simple 2-step beats to the painfully basic lyrical flow, to be cheesy, rudimentary, and outdated. Does "Fuck The Police" or "Straight Outta Compton" really stand the test of time? Does the chorus "Chickity-check yourself before you wreck yourself" really resonate decades later as a catchy piece of music? Is anything Public Enemy or N.W.A wrote really considered that more poetic and crucial to society than a Kanye song?

No - it's simply a case of nostalgia goggles being worn too tight. Gangsta rap like N.W.A had a place in the 90's, and they did a good job of speaking to a generation that felt neglected and mistreated by society. They rapped with menacing authority and didn't hold back on the violence (or misogyny) But to compare them to rappers today is useless. It's like going to a Grizzly Bear thread and declaring, "This is trash. Go listen to Bob Dylan for some real folk"

Also, read the lyrics to Public Enemies 'Fight The Power' - it's vague gibberish about civil inequality written in the simplest, most forceful way possible; it's not some epic stand against a corrupt society. It probably served a major purpose when it was first released, but now it's sounds like Chuck D showing off his best watered-down Malcolm X impersonation while an annoying crackhead with a clock as a necklace tries to distract you from the fact that it's supposed to be a serious song.

[mfte]

I have a problem with people using 90's 'gangsta rap' as some kind of golden age of hip hop that no current rapper can come close to. I find most hip hop songs created in the early 90's, from the simple 2-step beats to the painfully basic lyrical flow, to be cheesy, rudimentary, and outdated. Does "Fuck The Police" or "Straight Outta Compton" really stand the test of time? Does the chorus "Chickity-check yourself before you wreck yourself" really resonate decades later as a catchy piece of music? Is anything Public Enemy or N.W.A wrote really considered that more poetic and crucial to society than a Kanye song?

No - it's simply a case of nostalgia goggles being worn too tight. Gangsta rap like N.W.A had a place in the 90's, and they did a good job of speaking to a generation that felt neglected and mistreated by society. They rapped with menacing authority and didn't hold back on the violence (or misogyny) But to compare them to rappers today is useless. It's like going to a Grizzly Bear thread and declaring, "This is trash. Go listen to Bob Dylan for some real folk"

Also, read the lyrics to Public Enemies 'Fight The Power' - it's vague gibberish about civil inequality written in the simplest, most forceful way possible; it's not some epic stand against a corrupt society. It probably served a major purpose when it was first released, but now it's sounds like Chuck D showing off his best watered-down Malcolm X impersonation while an annoying crackhead with a clock as a necklace tries to distract you from the fact that it's supposed to be a serious song.


Did you just call PE 'gansta rap'?

The 'golden age' of hiphop was back in/around 88 BUT most people will cite the early 90s as the true pillar of achievment and creativity in rap. The reason NWA and DREcentric music is so iconic is because it was entirely new and different from everything that preceeded it. Now that you've had 20odd years of every hybrid of genre you can imagine I see how those songs might seem 'cheesy, rudimentary and outdated' but those songs invented a sound and will forever be cited as the pioneers. SO Kanye can innovate as much as he wants but if it wasnt for those tunes he would probably be a hotel manager or something.

ON that note, I also think its stuffy and old to be telling people that Kanye isnt real music and they should listen to Public Enemy.

[allegro]

(Meh that inch guy only came here to create a redundant thread and when it got locked, his first whining target was this thread because it happened to be at the top. If he'd done it a month ago, he'd be jizzing in the 300-page Manson thread.)

[Reznor2112]

I honestly fuckin hate Kanye and his whole attitude, but...

That performance of "Black Skinhead" on SNL was fucking brilliant.
Who knew Kanye and Marilyn Manson would go well together.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuhl6Ji5zHM

[r_z]

So what exactly is it that people find innovative about Kanye's music? I don't get it. He's certainly not bad, but why do people act like he's the most important rapper of this century? This is not trolling, I sincerely want to know. I listen to a lot of rap music and his never struck me as being THAT special.

[mfte]

So what exactly is it that people find innovative about Kanye's music? I don't get it. He's certainly not bad, but why do people act like he's the most important rapper of this century? This is not trolling, I sincerely want to know. I listen to a lot of rap music and his never struck me as being THAT special.

Talking about him purely as a "rapper"... I woud consider him one of the best rappers of the last 5-10 years (public personality aside)

He has put out consistent material for years.
He has a good flow that he is able to switch up depending on the beat he is rapping on.
He makes wise choices when selecting beats... this has been the downfall of many great rappers (see Nas, Raekwon)
His lyrics are for the most part free of filler and he has good punch lines. He is often a highlight of crewcuts.
He maintains underground/artistic credibility while still able to appeal to the mainstream.
He isn't afraid to take a chance and move in a new direction musically.

[thefragile_jake]

Agree 100% with above!

[Presideo]

The 'golden age' of hiphop was back in/around 88 BUT most people will cite the early 90s as the true pillar of achievment and creativity in rap. The reason NWA and DREcentric music is so iconic is because it was entirely new and different from everything that preceeded it. Now that you've had 20odd years of every hybrid of genre you can imagine I see how those songs might seem 'cheesy, rudimentary and outdated' but those songs invented a sound and will forever be cited as the pioneers. SO Kanye can innovate as much as he wants but if it wasnt for those tunes he would probably be a hotel manager or something.

ON that note, I also think its stuffy and old to be telling people that Kanye isnt real music and they should listen to Public Enemy.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say. Rap artists in the late 80's/90's were pioneers and helped shape hip hop into what we hear today. But it irks me when people blindly refer to that era as the pinnacle of hip hop, and completely disregard any legitimately good rap artist today as trash because their music doesn't seem as purposeful. Yeah, there are a bunch of mainstream rappers creating verses solely dedicated to the strip club, their bank account, and how much designer clothing they own. It's annoying; however, there are plenty of brights spots where artists today "get real" and rap with a purpose.

[Kodiak33]

Kanye, to me, isn't the best "rapper"...but he is the best total package in terms of production, song writing, and rapping. Eminem, Nas, and Jay-Z are the best pure rappers IMO.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Eminem, Nas, and Jay-Z are the best pure rappers IMO.Jay is probably the best of all time, I'll give you that, Nas being in the top five. Em on the other hand, I always found to be very overrated. I go back and listen to the first three albums and while his flow was impeccable, a lot of it is mindless and downright cartoonish at times. To me, Em had his time and place and grabbed it and he was a great artist for that time period. Now, he's just bad. I mean very bad, Relapse and Recovery were clunkers. Relapse was him trying to go back to that almost goofy persona of his first album (as well as parts of Marshall Mathers LP and Eminem Show), but it was just numb. Recovery was even worse, because when he figured out that his old persona didn't work, he did this forced transformation into someone who thinks he's more aware, but isn't. It ammounted to a good chunk of the songs featuring him blatantly yelling and barking out bars instead of just spitting it.

Put a gun to my head and I guess I'd say Jay-Z is the best pure rapper, but I could make a case for a handful of people as well. Kanye is intriguing to me because he's grown with each release. Nevermind that beforehand, he was making beats and produced a good portion of The Blueprint, which could be the best hip hop album of all time. He made perfect beats, then started rapping (keep in mind no labels at that time were willing to give him a shot, them knowing he was just a producer) and has continued to make thought provoking music.

[allegro]

Chicago critic Richard Roeper (a/k/a pall bearer for Roger Ebert) (okay and I also happen to be in love with Richard Roeper) weighs in on new Kanye (http://www.suntimes.com/news/roeper/20218178-452/kanye-west-isnt-living-the-ideas-hes-rapping-on-new-slaves.html).

[screwdriver]

Chicago critic Richard Roeper (a/k/a pall bearer for Roger Ebert) (okay and I also happen to be in love with Richard Roeper) weighs in on new Kanye (http://www.suntimes.com/news/roeper/20218178-452/kanye-west-isnt-living-the-ideas-hes-rapping-on-new-slaves.html).

I think thats a totally accurate commentary on Kanye. Yet the new track is totally sick anyway. Artist != art.

[Jinsai]

I have a problem with people using 90's 'gangsta rap' as some kind of golden age of hip hop that no current rapper can come close to. I find most hip hop songs created in the early 90's, from the simple 2-step beats to the painfully basic lyrical flow, to be cheesy, rudimentary, and outdated. Does "Fuck The Police" or "Straight Outta Compton" really stand the test of time? Does the chorus "Chickity-check yourself before you wreck yourself" really resonate decades later as a catchy piece of music? Is anything Public Enemy or N.W.A wrote really considered that more poetic and crucial to society than a Kanye song?

Let's not get crazy here. NWA and Public Enemy have aged really well, and it's not all about the lyrics. They're also completely different.

Also... when I'm thinking of Public Enemy and NWA, I'm thinking 80s, not 90s.

[mfte]

Jayz better than Nas KC?

I know this isnt the place but everytime I hear that I have to say something.

I always found that when firing all cylinders, Nas dances circles around JayZ BUT Jay has a much better ear for beats, and the ability to craft a better album.

Since this is a Kanye thread............. he supposedly co(or ghost) produced Poppa Was A Player for Nas. Great tune.

[Iran_Ed]

I've had this question rattling around in my head for the past few days now, and I think I'll ask it here. Is Kanye a rapper?
It may sound stupid, but hear me out. Listening to each album you can hear the growth and the expansion of ideas slowly becoming something more.
Sure his style and delivery is hip hop, but where he culls his influence from, his approach to music and his attitude (that lack of a tough as nails demeanor most rappers portray) to me leaves him by himself.
I think of him as someone who trying to make high class art out of the genre. Someone who aims in a different direction than most and has been successful at it.
At least that's how I feel about his songs. His guest spots are something different.
Thoughts?

[r_z]

There are many other "rappers" that fit your description of "growing", "being influenced by", "approaching" or "art making". In the end, he's rapping, is he not?

[carpenoctem]

He's definitely rapping. I do understand that his writing is clever, his beats are great and he knows how to assemble a team of diverse collaborators around him to make a unique final product, but let's not try to pretend he is somehow transcending rap and making a new art form - he's just doing rap very well, and knows how to present it in the most entertaining way (the worldwide projections, etc). I'll give you this, though, his fans are so dedicated that they are doing all his PR work for him.

[bobbie solo]

for a mass consumption major label commercial hip hop product, you're not gonna get much more innovative than Kanye. Of course when you start to traffic in more underground & independent artists you will find more groundbreaking stuff. But considering the utter drek Kanye is mixed in with in the pop hip hop landscape, he's the best & most daring for the past 7 or 8 years, and he still gets tons of airplay, records sold etc..

[Fixer808]

I've never thought too highly of him as a rapper, but as a PRODUCER he's done some damn good stuff. How many people have sampled/reinterpreted Mike fucking Oldfield, for example!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNjwbbhC8Fc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIWZ4dqKmJs

[thefragile_jake]

Kanye is performing at the Governor's Ball tonight in NYC. Hopefully we'll get some better bootlegs of the newer material.

It's crazy Yeezus comes out in two weeks and we virtually know nothing. I like that, it's got a certain mystic about the album...

[The Doctor]

Jay is probably the best of all time, I'll give you that, Nas being in the top five. Em on the other hand, I always found to be very overrated. I go back and listen to the first three albums and while his flow was impeccable, a lot of it is mindless and downright cartoonish at times. To me, Em had his time and place and grabbed it and he was a great artist for that time period. Now, he's just bad. I mean very bad, Relapse and Recovery were clunkers. Relapse was him trying to go back to that almost goofy persona of his first album (as well as parts of Marshall Mathers LP and Eminem Show), but it was just numb. Recovery was even worse, because when he figured out that his old persona didn't work, he did this forced transformation into someone who thinks he's more aware, but isn't. It ammounted to a good chunk of the songs featuring him blatantly yelling and barking out bars instead of just spitting it.

Listen to his flow on this song from 2011 and tell me he isn't still amazing:
http://youtu.be/Xw-isamfqEs

And just to drive the point home, his flow is the absolute best of all the impressive rappers in Drake's song "Forever" :
http://youtu.be/eDuRoPIOBjE?t=4m58s

[richardp]

http://pitchfork.com/news/51084-watch-kanye-west-perform-new-track-at-governors-ball/

HOLY SHIT. On Site sounds fucking SICK.

[thefragile_jake]

"I Am A God" sounds like a Kanye track produced by Burial....well...at moments it does.

Kanye's gone crazy industrial rap. Is it next week yet?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RDdsWm3uRU

[gorast]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/arts/music/kanye-west-talks-about-his-career-and-album-yeezus.html?pagewanted=all&_r=4&

Really good interview about a whole host of things. Can't wait for the album to drop.

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[Space Suicide]

Read it this morning...awesome, but holyyyy shit...even I had to chuckle.

'You know, if Michael Jordan can scream at the refs, me as Kanye West, as the Michael Jordan of music, can go and say, “This is wrong.”'
"I am so credible and so influential and so relevant that I will change things."
"I understand culture. I am the nucleus."


If his head was any further up his own ass he'd be looking at his colon lol.

I like a majority of his music but his self perception, Holier-Than-Thous attitude and just general stupidity really, really make me shudder that I like his music to a degree.

His main credibility, outside of music, with me went down the tubes the moment he got with and knocked up Kim Kardashian.

[thevoid99]

Anyone associated with the Kardashians is pretty much fucked.

[Kodiak33]

Drip drip drip

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[thefragile_jake]

Ahh! I'm at work until 4:30 today. :( :( I want to listen to this!!

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[carpenoctem]

Looks like someone's been listening to Death Grips.

This is the best weekend/summer present ever! I'm In It is the most beautifully trashy thing ever.

[thefragile_jake]

Holy shit. This is really good, it's like a combination of Salem, Death Grips, Nine Inch Nails with the production habits of El-P...all wrapped up in a nice Kanye West blender. It's minimal in it's length but heavy in it's layers & electronic atmosphere. I'm really loving this.

I just saw Death Grips last night too...so coming off of the high of that show with Yeezus now...this is incredible.

[blackholesun]

I've gotta admit, I really like this. I've never really liked his previous albums (the last one was okay), and I loathe the guy as a person. But this is a pretty great album.

[BrewHa]

Another album of the year contender.

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[gorast]

This album is a fucking monster, god damn.

Blood on the Leaves and Guilt Trip feel like they could have been on 808s & Heartbreak.

[carpenoctem]

I get 808s&H vibes too, just darker and fiercer. This is a very, very good thing

[richardp]

I can't believe how goddamn good this album is. The four Daft Punk tracks are galaxies better than RAM. This is so good. It truly is getting exhausting saying every single album that comes out is one of the best albums of the year, but fuck it. Until like two weeks from now when the next mindblowing release comes out, this is the AOTY.

[Jinsai]

goddamn it, why does Kanye make it so difficult for me to admit that his music is good? Maybe it helps to have such a ridiculous ego if you want to do something really revolutionary, but I wish he'd keep it to himself. Fuck.

it helps to read this and try to pretend it's a real interview (http://www.theonion.com/articles/fully-validated-kanye-west-retires-to-quiet-farm-i,18724/)

But yeah, the new music is good.

[Magtig]

Maybe it helps to have such a ridiculous ego if you want to do something really revolutionary...
Kanye West is the Salvador Dali of rap. If having an ego this big helps him make the artistic leaps that he does, well, fuck it. I care about the music more than anything else. That said, Kanye will have to excuse me if I make it a point to avoid his interviews.

[Jinsai]

I care about the music more than anything else. That said, Kanye will have to excuse me if I make it a point to avoid his interviews.

I liked the comparison to Dali's arrogance, but don't tell Kanye, please. He's already the "Michael Jordan of music"

Otherwise, I agree. If the output is good, it should be appreciated. Face value. Even if the person making it is a totally self absorbed dick, the music is good, then it's good.

....and even if he gets off on the fact that people are begrudgingly admitting that his music is good even though they hate his attitude, and that fuels his creativity.... cool

Still, fuck him, I won't be giving him any of my money.
I rarely steal music these days, but when I do, it belongs to Kanye West.

[ibanez33]

He's already the "Michael Jordan of music"

He's going to retire to do something he's horrible at, and then have a half-assed comeback a few years from now?

*edit* kidding aside, I've been staying away from any info on this album as much as I could so I'm not biased for favorites based on who helped on what (Daft Punk, Skrillex, etc.). After my first play, I'd say my favorites are I Am a God, and Send It Up. I'll give it another listen or 2 or 12 over the weekend though to see how I feel after. As I said, I don't know who worked on which tracks, but the Rasta vocals just scream "Skrillex made me", and even though I'm a fan of his (haters gonna hate), honestly I don't think they work too well with Kanye.

*2nd edit* Would really love "Hold my Liquor" and "I'm In It" if it weren't for auto-tune and Rasta vocals, respectively. "I'm In It" gets bonus points for the hauntingly-beautiful Bon Iver vocals, though, so he breaks even on that one. "Hold My Liquor" would be my #1 track if he had used distorted vocals instead of auto-tune, and made the guitar solo more prominent, instead of just a background sound.

I really hope some stems pop up for a few of these songs to fuck around with.

[R-Dot-Yung]

I really don't understand the appeal of Kanye West, mostly because everything likable about this album isn't Kanye Wests ideas. This album to me sounds like all of his recent previous efforts since Twisted Dark Fantasy. Basically he shells out insane amounts of money to get the best producers in the world make him awesome beats, and then he rambles on them with no coherent thought process about how he's a god like man who jizzes on bitches and has lambos.

Kanye didn't write that synth line, he didn't write those chord progressions, he didn't mix these songs, or sound design any of this album except CO production on 2 tracks with other heavy weights. Kanye West isn't Justin Vernon, or Daft Punk, or TNGHT, or fucking Gessafelstein. Like what am I listening to right now, I can't follow a thing he's saying and none of it is actually important so I geuss I don't have to, but I don't feel any genuine love put into this project or the music despite how amazing the production is, I just feel a man trying to be more awesome than he is and convincing half of the world he's a genius when he really isn't.

So I guess once again I'm just conflicted about this album, because the "MUSIC" is really good, and Kanye West is still a babbling idiot taking credits for other peoples brilliance. Like is anyone really going to listen to this in a month? I highly doubt it, anything memorable about this album isn't Kanye West.

I don't fucking get it.

[carpenoctem]

The dark vibe is awesome, but I wish he would've tried for more of that evil and genuinely scary sound (Send It Up, omg). The more I listen the more I hear some missed opportunities, too - like, I love all the raw materials of the album, the sounds, the bleakness of it, kind of cruel and spare, like 808s&H's evil twin, but just in the construction of it, I feel like in that instant right after that verse he needs to just smash it out of the park with something, but instead he hesitates and goes back to the chorus, or drops a different beat that loses the momentum, or etc. I also think that the album's harsh, dark, super-mechanical vibe has been done better by Shabazz Palaces and Death Grips, but they're not as mainstream as Kanye, so Yeezus will introduce a lot of new people to this sound.

I'm still really enjoying it. And it inspires me to be better - to take those moments where I would've done something differently, and then just go ahead and do it myself. It's hard to get motivated to be creative sometimes.

[Reznor2112]

Pressed play on Yeezus, opening seconds of On Sight I had to make sure I didnt press play on Year Zero.

[rampface]

I really don't understand the appeal of Kanye West, mostly because everything likable about this album isn't Kanye Wests ideas. This album to me sounds like all of his recent previous efforts since Twisted Dark Fantasy. Basically he shells out insane amounts of money to get the best producers in the world make him awesome beats, and then he rambles on them with no coherent thought process about how he's a god like man who jizzes on bitches and has lambos.

Kanye didn't write that synth line, he didn't write those chord progressions, he didn't mix these songs, or sound design any of this album except CO production on 2 tracks with other heavy weights. Kanye West isn't Justin Vernon, or Daft Punk, or TNGHT, or fucking Gessafelstein. Like what am I listening to right now, I can't follow a thing he's saying and none of it is actually important so I geuss I don't have to, but I don't feel any genuine love put into this project or the music despite how amazing the production is, I just feel a man trying to be more awesome than he is and convincing half of the world he's a genius when he really isn't.

So I guess once again I'm just conflicted about this album, because the "MUSIC" is really good, and Kanye West is still a babbling idiot taking credits for other peoples brilliance. Like is anyone really going to listen to this in a month? I highly doubt it, anything memorable about this album isn't Kanye West.

I don't fucking get it.


Quit thinking of Kanye as a musician and see him as a producer. You are right: he's not Justin Vernon, or Daft Punk, or TNGHT, or fucking Gessafelstein. Without Ye's ears and imagination, none of those artists would have thought to link up together. He's creating the ultimate mixtape as a form of high art. He's also really good at it.

There's another guy who does a similar sort of thing in a different genre (hmmm I think this is the place that you worship said individual). He also seems to have mastered everything but his lyrical content (cough*camebackhaunted*cough). It's a curse of the producer.



Love the minimalism on Yeezus. Rick Rubin is a genius.

[Jinsai]

There's another guy who does a similar sort of thing in a different genre (hmmm I think this is the place that you worship said individual).

Worship? Speak for yourself.


Love the minimalism on Yeezus. Rick Rubin is a genius.

Rick Rubin is NOT a genius.

[Space Suicide]

Rick Rubin is NOT a genius.

Agreed, Rick Rubin spoils a lot of what he works on.

As for Yeezus, I'm not entirely blown away by it. A few tracks are pretty neat but overall it's riding the hypetrain. I don't think anything will capture my attention the way 808's & Heartbreak did.

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[littlemonkey613]

God fuck this album, plus Sigur Ros, Like Clockwork and Daft Punk. Such an awesome summer for music.

Praise Yeezus.

[poinoup]

When the first listen finished, I hit play again. This is such a departure from MBDTF, there's not much traditional hip hop to be heard on this.

Digging the Daft Punk tracks, I'm going to need to headphone this album sooner than later.

[SM Rollinger]

Agreed, Rick Rubin spoils a lot of what he works on.

Agreeded. I still dont know why i clicked on this thread in the first place, seeing as I cant stand Kanye (or this kind of commercialized hip-hop for that matter.)

Kanye reminds me of an Al Jourgensen type. He is only mildly talented himself, but excells and surrounding himself with gifted people, for whom he can take credit for their work.

[Jinsai]

cant stand Kanye (or this kind of commercialized hip-hop for that matter.)

There's a lot of points you can make against the music, but disregarding this album as typical "commercialized hip hop" is just wrong.

[SM Rollinger]

Facepalm for my opinion on KW, ouch thats harsh.

Its ok, though. I understand. Ive listened to rap and hip hop, on and off for as long as ive listened to anything else, and had to defend many a great album against people that are quick to criticize them. So yeah, I mispoke and probably did generalize there about this being commericalized.

Anyways, enjoy your album, i doubt ill ever hear it (and if i do, i doubt ill know what it is)

[richardp]

Rick Rubin is NOT a genius.

Agreed 100%. I think that one story that Corey Taylor told about Rubin when Slipknot recorded Vol. 3 pretty much sums up Rick Rubin's "genius". Anyone who thinks he's a genius just buys into the hype surrounding him. He, at one point, DID do some genius stuff, but he's a fucking hack now. Even U2 threw away an entire album's worth of shit they did with him because it sucked.

[Space Suicide]

Agreed 100%. I think that one story that Corey Taylor told about Rubin when Slipknot recorded Vol. 3 pretty much sums up Rick Rubin's "genius". Anyone who thinks he's a genius just buys into the hype surrounding him. He, at one point, DID do some genius stuff, but he's a fucking hack now. Even U2 threw away an entire album's worth of shit they did with him because it sucked.

Not derailing the thread but I found what he had said, amusing to say the least.


Corey said (see video below), "That's a dangerous, dangerous question. . . Now, there are some people who would love for me to just be [politically correct] and toe the party line, which is, basically, [to say] 'You know, working with Rick Rubin was a very enriching experience. He is truly a great mind. . .' Let me give you the fucking truth of it. Rick Rubin showed up for 45 minutes a week. Yeah. Rick Rubin would then, during that 45 minutes, lay on a couch, have a mic brought in next to his face so he wouldn't have to fucking move. I swear to God. And then he would be, like, 'Play it for me.' The engineer would play it. And he had shades on the whole time. Never mind the fact that there is no sun in the room — it's all dark. You just look like an asshole at that point. And he would just stroke his huge beard and try and get as much food out of it as he could. And he would go, 'Play it again.' And then he'd be, like, 'Stop! Do that over.' And he had an assistant who was seven feet tall. He had that disease where you can't grow hair on your body, so he was just bald. He looked like Mr. Clean's neurotic cousin. But he basically ran Rick Rubin's life — like, he was just fucking on it, on it, on it, on it. About half way through our precious 45 minutes, he would bring in this plate of shit. I assume it was food. It was bluish green. It smelled like someone had just plunged a fucking toilet somewhere. And he would eat it as fast as he could — just get it in there, all over himself. Which is, when you're working, so wonderful to look at . . . I will say this: I respect what Rick Rubin has done, I respect the work that he has done in the past to get to where he is now. But… this is a huge but… this is a J.Lo-sized 'but...' I will say this: The Rick Rubin of today is a thin, thin, thin shadow of the Rick Rubin that he was. He is overrated, he is overpaid, and I will never work with him again as long as I fucking live."

[Leviathant]

If I could get this latest album and Dark Fantasy in instrumental versions, I'd be all over that. Interesting/fun music, terrible vocals/lyrics.

[Jinsai]

If I could get this latest album and Dark Fantasy in instrumental versions, I'd be all over that. Interesting/fun music, terrible vocals/lyrics.

this kind of thing sounds good in theory, and it starts off sounding cool, but after a little bit you start to feel like you're losing your mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm51U-BxWiE

[Kodiak33]

MBDTF, Watch the Throne, and Yeesus are the only albums in which he brought a bunch of people in to work on. His other stuff is all him, and its fucking great. Yes, he's a huge douche, but he is a genius.

[Collin]

Yeezus is pretty awesome. I might even like it more than MBDTF, it's raw, minimalistic and in-your-face. I think I like nearly every track. I think it helps that the record is a lean 40 min. too, as a lotta Hiphop albums tend to be overlong.

Also, the beat for "On Site" sounds like something directly off of Year Zero.

[Magtig]

MBDTF, Watch the Throne, and Yeesus are the only albums in which he brought a bunch of people in to work on. His other stuff is all him...
Could it be that he's just become more interested in commissioning original samples instead of sourcing them from his record collection?

[thefragile_jake]

I'm really liking it a lot still after a couple listens. 808s and MBDTF are my two favorite albums from him and he was able to make a combination of the both of those, yet something completely different. It's a different kind of animal both in terms of layering, sampling and overall mood and tone. The robotic coldness of 808s is in there as well as the grandiose feel of Fantasy...but this is more synth heavy with a dark atmosphere.

Not many artists with such mainstream appeal can get away with releasing music like this.
Clever writing, amazing beats, cohesive yet condensed feel....Yeezus is top ten material.

[carpenoctem]

I've been trying to think of which song could conceivably fit on the radio. Black Skinheads seems like the obvious choice, but it's still a little too harsh I think, with the screams. (I remember when every station was playing M.I.A.'s Paper Planes in 2008 - they cut the gunshots in the chorus out because they were, I don't know, too scary for white people or something.) Maybe Guilt Trip could be? But it's not as obviously catchy. But man I want to live in a world where your local radio station finds Send It Up to be acceptable broadcasting.

[richardp]

I've been trying to think of which song could conceivably fit on the radio. Black Skinheads seems like the obvious choice, but it's still a little too harsh I think, with the screams. (I remember when every station was playing M.I.A.'s Paper Planes in 2008 - they cut the gunshots in the chorus out because they were, I don't know, too scary for white people or something.) Maybe Guilt Trip could be? But it's not as obviously catchy. But man I want to live in a world where your local radio station finds Send It Up to be acceptable broadcasting.

I highly doubt there will be a single released to radio from Yeezus. 'Ye doesn't want his shit on the radio anymore.

[Kodiak33]

Maybe, but you can certainly tell a huge difference in his delivery in Watch the Throne and Yeesus compared to his other stuff.

[R-Dot-Yung]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGmNT62Tiwg&list=PLA83BEDF13C4773E3 > Yeezus

Ya know I haven't listened to this album in years, and it's literally so ahead of it's time it makes my head explode.

[thefragile_jake]

I liked that record fine, but I thought it was very all over the place too.

It's interesting to compare the two considering they have both have tracks that are heavily electronic synth based or "industrial rap"....but Yeezus is far superior in my opinion.

[50 Volt Phantom]

I liked Kanye's last record and some of 808s, but I really think people give him more praise than he warrants. For instance, the gushing over "Yeezus," which after 3 listens is just okay not great, is surprising to me. There's bits and pieces here that I think had potential but they just didn't deliver in the final product, and some of it, like "Bound 2," just feels straight up lazy.

i don't know, maybe over time I'll like it more, but after being a little hyped up about it it's truly a disappointment to me.

[poinoup]

These lyrics are wonderfully ridiculous:

"One last announcement
No sports bra, let's keep it bouncin'"

"I keep it 300 like the Romans
300 bitches, where the Trojans?"

[johnbron]

If I could get this latest album and Dark Fantasy in instrumental versions, I'd be all over that. Interesting/fun music, terrible vocals/lyrics.
I couldn't agree more. Listened to this new one to see how bad it was and wound up very impressed musically. The lyrics are a joke and the vocals are meh. I need to check out this Dark Fantasy album now as I've been ignoring this guy for years.

[Self.Destructive.Pattern]

This album is just wonderful and I love every minute of it. The lyrics and the music are wonderful.... but the lyrics?? They are wonderful and make me laugh and love them even more.

"They probably in the hamptons braggin bout how much they make, fuck you and your hampton house, I fuck your hampton spouse, came on her hampton blouse, and in her hampton mouth". Gold. And especially since I work in the hamptons every day of my life.. I just want to blast this as i'm pulling into one of their driveways :D

And 808's still may be my favorite album from West. This is a very very close second.

[littlemonkey613]

The lyrics are a joke

Quite often I think they are supposed to be? ;)

[johnbron]

Quite often I think they are supposed to be? ;)
Touche. I don't find them amusing or entertaining, to get right to the point. ;)

[mfte]

Great album. Could be better without the auto tune.

[jmtd]

This is… well, different. Which is good.

[Amaro]

So far I'm not taking to it...

[jessamineny]

Listening to Yeezus on Spotify. Just noticed that the artist for "I Am a God" is listed as "Kanye West, God"

lawl

[gorast]

Anyone see the video on kanyewest.com?

Shit's weird.

[screwdriver]

this album is really front-loaded... first few songs are great, but then ... ehhhhh

I can't help but feel that sometimes he's not really being clever or satirical but these are actually just really regressive lyrics that people are projecting progressive values on

[mfte]

this album is really front-loaded... first few songs are great, but then ... ehhhhh

I can't help but feel that sometimes he's not really being clever or satirical but these are actually just really regressive lyrics that people are projecting progressive values on

This pretty much sums it up for me thus far.

[richardp]

Anyone see the video on kanyewest.com?

Shit's weird.

Have you never seen American Pyscho?

[greyskies13]

Me too. I keep listening to tracks 1-5 and then I just start over at 1 again. Those first two tracks are my favorites at the moment.


This pretty much sums it up for me thus far.

[Kid Charlemagne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGmNT62Tiwg&list=PLA83BEDF13C4773E3 > Yeezus

Ya know I haven't listened to this album in years, and it's literally so ahead of it's time it makes my head explode.

Saul Williams is so overrated. I don't know how you can begin to compare him and Kanye, Kanye is in a league of his own. Niggy Tardust was just as self indulgent and bloated as any hip hop album in the past decade, and it sucked. I don't get why any time there's a hip hop album talked about on this site, someone always has to bring up Saul Williams. Give it a rest.

This album is really good though. It's almost as good as MBDTF, but I feel like something is missing, it's length time is a bit short, like there should be another part to this. But it's brutal, vulnerable, self aware, and downright hilarious at times (I don't know if it's intentional). Outside of this site, I've seen this compared to PHM, which is a bit accurate, both albums seem to venture on the uncertainty of life and being vulnerable and sometimes regretful towards the opposite sex.

The production, fantastic. It's hard hitting, aggressive, and probably the least accessible album that'll be released by a star of his magnitude. To me, it's sort of how I feel like about Kid A. Artists at the top of their game, doing a 180, creating music unlike anything they've put to tape, completely dismantling themselves, only to get a stronger, more natural version of what they are.

[Ash512]

Everybody's saying he's sampling Manson's The Beautiful People on Black Skinhead... Even Pitchfork's got a story on it. Now I really don't hear that : similar beat, matching tempo, but definitely not an actual sample. Anybody can clear that up?

[richardp]

Everybody's saying he's sampling Manson's The Beautiful People on Black Skinhead... Even Pitchfork's got a story on it. Now I really don't hear that : similar beat, matching tempo, but definitely not an actual sample. Anybody can clear that up?

Honestly it sounds more like the drumbeat to Metric's Youth Without Youth than The Beautiful People. It's such a common drum pattern though that it could really be anything.

in other news, I'm starting to hear rumors that the CD and iTunes versions of the album have subtle differences to them, and that the CD contains a hidden track. Can anyone confirm this?

[Space Suicide]

Everybody's saying he's sampling Manson's The Beautiful People on Black Skinhead... Even Pitchfork's got a story on it. Now I really don't hear that : similar beat, matching tempo, but definitely not an actual sample. Anybody can clear that up?

Manson himself said it wasn't when he was asked about it. He later positively complimented the song and performance he had on SNL.

[carpenoctem]

Yeah, people are definitely projecting all sorts of things onto his music. It's because the things he says are so outrageous and over-the-top, while his music is still generally very good, that we have to make excuses for him. Liking Kanye West means having to make an argument for liking Kanye West, even if it's only in your own head.

Take Pitchfork's review of Yeezus as an example:


Without much room for levity, Kanye's complicated and distrustful view of women is unrelenting on Yeezus. And while there's no real excuse for flat oafishness like "eatin' Asian pussy, all I need was sweet and sour sauce," many of the album's most powerful moments have him broken down, insecure, and bloody, railing against an ineptitude with the opposite sex.

Ryan starts, for just a moment, to admit the awfulness of this line, and then backpedals to, "But - but - it's because of his tragic relationship with women!" If anyone other than Ye wrote a line like that, we'd treat it for what it was: stupid regressive bullshit masquerading as clever wordplay. It's really too easy a joke - he might as well start talking about pandas, rice paddies and slanted eyes.

THAT BEING SAID:
I'm still rocking the shit out of this album in the car.

[richardp]

Saul Williams is so overrated. I don't know how you can begin to compare him and Kanye, Kanye is in a league of his own. Niggy Tardust was just as self indulgent and bloated as any hip hop album in the past decade, and it sucked. I don't get why any time there's a hip hop album talked about on this site, someone always has to bring up Saul Williams. Give it a rest.

its just because Trent produced it and used unused Fragile instrumentals. I still to this day have never listened to that whole album from start to finish. It's retardedly overrated and annoying. Had Trent had nothing to do with it, no one would give a fuck about it. Just like Saul's first album.

[screwdriver]

Saul Williams is so overrated. I don't know how you can begin to compare him and Kanye, Kanye is in a league of his own. Niggy Tardust was just as self indulgent and bloated as any hip hop album in the past decade, and it sucked. I don't get why any time there's a hip hop album talked about on this site, someone always has to bring up Saul Williams. Give it a rest.

This album is really good though. It's almost as good as MBDTF, but I feel like something is missing, it's length time is a bit short, like there should be another part to this. But it's brutal, vulnerable, self aware, and downright hilarious at times (I don't know if it's intentional). Outside of this site, I've seen this compared to PHM, which is a bit accurate, both albums seem to venture on the uncertainty of life and being vulnerable and sometimes regretful towards the opposite sex.

The production, fantastic. It's hard hitting, aggressive, and probably the least accessible album that'll be released by a star of his magnitude. To me, it's sort of how I feel like about Kid A. Artists at the top of their game, doing a 180, creating music unlike anything they've put to tape, completely dismantling themselves, only to get a stronger, more natural version of what they are.

agreed that Saul Williams is overrated, but asking why people on a NIN-site bring him up when discussing hip-hop is a bit of a stupid question.... That said, Niggy Tardust had its cool moments, most (but not all) of them musically speaking.

disagreed that this album is so fantastic. While I get the Kid A comparison in that it's a piece of avant music foisted onto a large public audience, the flip side is, say, Metallica's St. Anger, which was super trashy sounding and deliberately discordant sonically, but without having anything new to say. I sort of think this album hits somwhere in the middle. There's some really good tracks, and some really mediocre ones. The lyrics are giving me problems, but I need to think about them. I can never tell if I'm giving West too much credit or not enough.

[greyskies13]

I'm not saying the new Kanye is anything less than absolutely superior to the Saul Williams album, but I have to admit that one of my first thoughts upon hearing the first two new songs was that it sure sounded inspired by Saul Williams. I'm not saying Kanye has even heard Saul Williams, just that the connection was one of my first thoughts as well.

[Frozen Beach]

its just because Trent produced it and used unused Fragile instrumentals. I still to this day have never listened to that whole album from start to finish. It's retardedly overrated and annoying. Had Trent had nothing to do with it, no one would give a fuck about it. Just like Saul's first album.
Plenty of people liked Saul Williams before he and Trent ever associated with one another. Also, how the living fuck can you have the nerve to call an album "overrated" and criticize it when you've admitted you haven't even listened to the entire record? That's what is truly retarded.

[screwdriver]

I'm not saying the new Kanye is anything less than absolutely superior to the Saul Williams album, but I have to admit that one of my first thoughts upon hearing the first two new songs was that it sure sounded inspired by Saul Williams. I'm not saying Kanye has even heard Saul Williams, just that the connection was one of my first thoughts as well.

you know, the difference is, for lack of a polite way to say this, Saul practices what he preaches. Kanye's "Saul-isms," if you want to call them that, come across as completely contrary to his lifestyle. It's why I think some of us are having problems with it.

[Kid Charlemagne]

agreed that Saul Williams is overrated, but asking why people on a NIN-site bring him up when discussing hip-hop is a bit of a stupid question.... That said, Niggy Tardust had its cool moments, most (but not all) of them musically speaking.

disagreed that this album is so fantastic. While I get the Kid A comparison in that it's a piece of avant music foisted onto a large public audience, the flip side is, say, Metallica's St. Anger, which was super trashy sounding and deliberately discordant sonically, but without having anything new to say. I sort of think this album hits somwhere in the middle. There's some really good tracks, and some really mediocre ones. The lyrics are giving me problems, but I need to think about them. I can never tell if I'm giving West too much credit or not enough.

Just because TR produced an album, doesn't mean you have to compare it to every other album in that genre. I suppose I should compare the next Xiu Xiu album or Bill Callahan LP because they're "rock music". It's stupid to keep doing that.

[screwdriver]

Just because TR produced an album, doesn't mean you have to compare it to every other album in that genre. I suppose I should compare the next Xiu Xiu album or Bill Callahan LP because they're "rock music". It's stupid to keep doing that.

well, I'm glad you're here to correct everyone. You know, a billion reviewers are comparing Kanye's new album to Nine Inch Nails, so comparing the NIN-auteur's one official hip-hop production to Kanye's album doesn't EXACTLY seem out of place.

[Kid Charlemagne]

well, I'm glad you're here to correct everyone. You know, a billion reviewers are comparing Kanye's new album to Nine Inch Nails, so comparing the NIN-auteur's one official hip-hop production to Kanye's album doesn't EXACTLY seem out of place.

Yeah, it does. They're completely different styles of hip hop. Why not just compare it to NIN, I did. Don't compare it to a shitty album that had production done on it that hardly even sounded like NIN. Completely different animals.

[richardp]

Plenty of people liked Saul Williams before he and Trent ever associated with one another. Also, how the living fuck can you have the nerve to call an album "overrated" and criticize it when you've admitted you haven't even listened to the entire record? That's what is truly retarded.

It's overrated to me if when people are claiming it's an amazing album and I can't make it 6 or 7 songs before getting annoyed and turning it off.

[Frozen Beach]

It's overrated to me if when people are claiming it's an amazing album and I can't make it 6 or 7 songs before getting annoyed and turning it off.
No offense, but you can't properly judge an album as a whole when you haven't even heard it as a whole. You're only judging fragments. For all you know, the album could have picked up by the end of it. If you're going to label something as "overrated" and make claims that no one would give a fuck about it if Trent wasn't involved, at least have the goddamn courtesy to listen to the whole thing.

[eversonpoe]

Anyone see the video on kanyewest.com?

Shit's weird.

honestly, i would have loved it if they had gotten an actual actor (instead of a friend of one of the kardashian sisters) to play the patrick bateman character. it was a decently well-though-out parody of a piece of pop culture that, in itself, was parodying pop culture. it had the potential to be awesome. but that guy was horrible, and his voice was even worse.

that said, i still haven't listened to the album and probably won't, as i also find kanye's voice (and outspoken misogyny) quite grating.

[exilajei]

It's overrated to me if when people are claiming it's an amazing album and I can't make it 6 or 7 songs before getting annoyed and turning it off.

Like Yeezus?

My two cents: the last Kanye album was overrated to the Nth degree, this is looking to be more of the same. It's decent. I'm all for him injecting a bit of weirdness/alternative sound into the mainstream, but it is absolutely nothing revolutionary or particularly special. Not enough to warrant everyone losing their minds over (especially in a year full of such great music).

This reminds me of MIA's Maya, and while not great, I honestly liked that album a lot more. Call me crazy!

[eversonpoe]

its just because Trent produced it and used unused Fragile instrumentals. I still to this day have never listened to that whole album from start to finish. It's retardedly overrated and annoying. Had Trent had nothing to do with it, no one would give a fuck about it. Just like Saul's first album.

um, i LOVE saul's first album (amethyst rock star, just to make sure we're talking about the same one) and really didn't care for his second (self-titled) album. niggy tardust was good but not great...but it was still cool to hear saul & trent collaborating on something.

[Khrz]

It's overrated to me if when people are claiming it's an amazing album and I can't make it 6 or 7 songs before getting annoyed and turning it off.

I believe there's a difference between "overrated" and "I don't like it". It's a fine line, like all opinion-based nuances, but to me "overrated" has always been a -somewhat- objective adjective... Just because I don't "get" the last Daft Punk doesn't mean it's overrated.

And, speaking of thing I don't "get", instead of comparing Yeezus to Radiohead's Kid A, I'd compare it to Muse's The Second Law. Perfect production, hard-hitting, but to me it sounds like Kanye asked all those collaborators to throw every kind of shit at him and see what he catches. < subjective opinion.

[cashpiles (closed)]

This album is much tighter and more focused than his last. The first 2 songs are the best Nine Inch Nails songs since 1996, seriously. I just wish this album had more tracks!

[ninsp]

This album is much tighter and more focused than his last. The first 2 songs are the best Nine Inch Nails songs since 1996, seriously. I just wish this album had more tracks!

I LOVE this album a lot and I totally admire Kanye for trying to bring experimentalism and avant-garde styles to a genre in desperate need of some experimentation in the mainstream. This is like Kid A, to me. Maybe not as good. But such an extreme album that you'll hear blasting from people's cars in between all the pop or rap crap on the radio. I think that's HUGE. And Kanye is kind of giving the mainstream a huge "F you", not releasing a single and releasing a really challenging album.

Personally, I really like this album, a whole lot. Unfortunately, Kanye's lyrics are still trivial and stupid.

However, your second sentence is the most lolworthy thing ever written on ETS...and I've been here for ten years under various usernames.

[mfte]

This explains alot about the record and its short comings

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/06/14/the-inside-story-of-kanye-wests-yeezus/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/06/14/the-inside-story-of-kanye-wests-yeezus/)

Can you recall a scene from the sessions that might help people understand his method in the studio?
We were working on a Sunday [the same day West attended a baby shower for girlfriend Kim Kardashian] and the album was to be turned in two days later. Kanye was planning to go to Milan that night. Five songs still needed vocals and two or three of them still needed lyrics. He said, “Don’t worry, I will score 40 points for you in the fourth quarter.” In the two hours before had to run out to catch the plane, he did exactly that: finished all lyrics and performed them with gusto. A remarkable feat. He had total confidence in his ability to get the job done when push came to shove.

[screwdriver]

I believe there's a difference between "overrated" and "I don't like it". It's a fine line, like all opinion-based nuances, but to me "overrated" has always been a -somewhat- objective adjective... Just because I don't "get" the last Daft Punk doesn't mean it's overrated.


Actually I can say with complete objectivity that the new Daft Punk album is INSANELY overrated.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Richard is right, within the space of ETS, Saul Williams is vastly overrated and gets talked about like he's the second coming (like Maynard and to a certain point, Manson). I don't like Saul at all, I remember when his first album came out and didn't like him then. He's overrated within here, and probably nowhere else outside of here, because people didn't give two shits to pay for Niggy Tardust.

This album gets better with each listen though, listened to it a few more times at work yesterday. I'm wondering if big brother hova is going to turn out something halfway this good, since he hasn't done shit since American Gangster.

[ninsp]

Actually I can say with complete objectivity that the new Daft Punk album is INSANELY overrated.

It barely even sounds like Daft Punk. So overrated. Half of the songs I skip.

[screwdriver]

It barely even sounds like Daft Punk. So overrated. Half of the songs I skip.

I don't really care if it sounds like Daft Punk, I just wish it SOUNDED INTERESTING AT ALL

I'll say that I went dancing last weekend and Get Lucky KILLS in a club, so maybe the rest of these do too, but for listening, it's boring as hell.

anyway, I've decided I really despise the blatant misogyny and hypocrisy on this album, but it's still interesting musically

[ambergris]

This explains alot about the record and its short comings

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/06/14/the-inside-story-of-kanye-wests-yeezus/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/06/14/the-inside-story-of-kanye-wests-yeezus/)

Can you recall a scene from the sessions that might help people understand his method in the studio?
We were working on a Sunday [the same day West attended a baby shower for girlfriend Kim Kardashian] and the album was to be turned in two days later. Kanye was planning to go to Milan that night. Five songs still needed vocals and two or three of them still needed lyrics. He said, “Don’t worry, I will score 40 points for you in the fourth quarter.” In the two hours before had to run out to catch the plane, he did exactly that: finished all lyrics and performed them with gusto. A remarkable feat. He had total confidence in his ability to get the job done when push came to shove.

I see... Kanye probably vented all his frustration with Kim into these songs, that's why they sound so angry.

I never managed to listen to his preivous album for long, it was so...loud, so overproduced, and the lyrics.... I like this album more, but since this is rap music, every interesting idea is repeated ad nauseam and the lyrics go on and on.... I'll give it a few more spins...but maybe this just isn't for me.

[thefragile_jake]

Richard is right, within the space of ETS, Saul Williams is vastly overrated and gets talked about like he's the second coming (like Maynard and to a certain point, Manson). I don't like Saul at all, I remember when his first album came out and didn't like him then. He's overrated within here, and probably nowhere else outside of here, because people didn't give two shits to pay for Niggy Tardust.

Here here!

[BRoswell]

Complaining about people thinking Saul Williams is a messiah in a KANYE WEST thread is hilarious. And you know what? I like the new album. I mean that too. He found the right mix of people to work with this time and it payed off. However, I still think he has a long way to go before I can consider him anything more than decent. I've been impressed. Now impress me again.

Oh. Sorry. Was I not playing by the rules by picking a side?

[Bokononist]

I'm not saying the new Kanye is anything less than absolutely superior to the Saul Williams album, but I have to admit that one of my first thoughts upon hearing the first two new songs was that it sure sounded inspired by Saul Williams. I'm not saying Kanye has even heard Saul Williams, just that the connection was one of my first thoughts as well.


There's a great interview with Saul on the Girl On Guy podcast that Aisha Tyler does that ends with a funny story involving Kanye. If you're too lazy or unable, the gist is that they do know each other.

[SaintNoir]

My two cents without digesting it as well as I need to...

I kept thinking "I wish someone else was spitting over the beat." The beats and production are FABULOUS... and Kanye is still a middle of the road emcee at best. This is often how I feel about his projects.

[R-Dot-Yung]

Black History Month sounds like Death Grips sounds like Yeezus.

To turn on Yeezus and be amazed by it, only to turn around and ignore the OBVIOUS influence is retarded when the similarities are staring you in the face.

[NINisamazing]

The record sounds a lot like Saul Williams and Death Grips, but its still good.

[Presideo]

Enjoyable album throughout! It felt like a mesh between the chaos of MBDTF (Black Skinhead, I'm In It) and the more subdued nature of 808's (Blood on the Leaves, Guilt Trip) The instrumentals/beats are top-class, like always - I got NIN and Crystal Castle vibes almost everywhere. It also felt like Kanye purposefully left out his slowjam samples he's known for in favor of other genres; aside from Bound 2, he mainly used them as abrupt interludes.

My biggest shock is that other than King Louie there aren't any guest rappers on the album; reminds me of when Jay-Z did the same on The Blueprint. I was in shock that 2 Chainz or Rick Ross didn't get a chance squeeze a line in somewhere.

[Presideo]

Basically he shells out insane amounts of money to get the best producers in the world make him awesome beats, and then he rambles on them with no coherent thought process about how he's a god like man who jizzes on bitches and has lambs […] Kanye didn't write that synth line, he didn't write those chord progressions, he didn't mix these songs, or sound design any of this album except CO production on 2 tracks with other heavy weights. Kanye West isn't Justin Vernon, or Daft Punk, or TNGHT, or fucking Gessafelstein.

Who are these "best producers in the world" you mention? 88-Keys? S1? Jeff Bhasker? Mike Dean? Not exactly household names in the world of production. And as good as he is, even Hudson Mohawke admitted that he didn't even know what the term 'mastering' was after TNGHT's debut EP came out. Kanye uses credible producers here and there (No ID, Lex Luger, The Neptunes, RZA), but he doesn't rely on them nearly as much as other rappers, who'd rather pay for the beat and rap over it without any input into the production whatsoever. Kanye gets a fat check from Def Jam and seems to use it wisely. If you have millions to bring in a team of great producers to work with, why not?

Also, you're not in the studio when these beats are getting made, right? So when a production credit for a song goes to Kanye and a few others, how do you know who had the most input and where their individual input was at? Many of his album credits use the term "additional production" to describe that others helped work on the song, consequently implying that Kanye usually did the bulk of the work.


Kanye didn't write that synth line, he didn't write those chord progressions, he didn't mix these songs, or sound design any of this album except CO production on 2 tracks with other heavy weights [...] I'm not saying Kanye doesn't have an ear for what is "good", because like I said, the music here is very good, but the music here isn't Kanye West, it's Daft Punk doing all the heavy lifting. Kanye here is nothing more than a glorified top-40 artist in the sense that nothing here is really his, it just has his voice and name on it. It's not even hidden or faked, Kanye isn't listed as a producer on 80% of the album.

No, Kanye is listed as a producer on every track. Daft Punk only co-produced four tracks with Kanye.


To say Trent Reznor is similar to Kanye West is insane.

Even Reznor has needed Moulder, Flood, Atticus, and others to get the job done. Even Superman needs help from his superhero buddies once in awhile.

[Kodiak33]

Can we just say that Kanye and Trent are geniuses and leave it at that? Because they both are. I like Trent better as a person, but they are both ridiculously talented. Kanye has incredible fashion sense too, that also means something.

[Jinsai]

Can we just say that Kanye and Trent are geniuses and leave it at that?

That seems like a wildly unhelpful form of criticism that just generally sucks.

Also, I disagree.

edit: and I'm sorry if I'm coming across as unnecessarily hostile there, but it's really a pet peeve. The word genius is thrown around too much, and I strongly think that if it is going to be used, it needs to be backed up, not just stated and "left at that."

[eversonpoe]

Kanye has incredible fashion sense too, that also means something.

what the hell does that have to do with his musical abilities?

[R-Dot-Yung]

Who are these "best producers in the world" you mention? 88-Keys? S1? Jeff Bhasker? Mike Dean? Not exactly household names in the world of production. And as good as he is, even Hudson Mohawke admitted that he didn't even know what the term 'mastering' was after TNGHT's debut EP came out. Kanye uses credible producers here and there (No ID, Lex Luger, The Neptunes, RZA), but he doesn't rely on them nearly as much as other rappers, who'd rather pay for the beat and rap over it without any input into the production whatsoever. Kanye gets a fat check from Def Jam and seems to use it wisely. If you have millions to bring in a team of great producers to work with, why not?

Also, you're not in the studio when these beats are getting made, right? So when a production credit for a song goes to Kanye and a few others, how do you know who had the most input and where their individual input was at? Many of his album credits use the term "additional production" to describe that others helped work on the song, consequently implying that Kanye usually did the bulk of the work.



No, Kanye is listed as a producer on every track. Daft Punk only co-produced four tracks with Kanye.



Even Reznor has needed Moulder, Flood, Atticus, and others to get the job done. Even Superman needs help from his superhero buddies once in awhile.

I just want to say that I'm not saying Trent is a one man superman, nor do I believe that. But that is also why Trent is Nine Inch Nails and not Trent Reznor, the messiah of music. The original production credit list I saw didn't include Kanye, I can see it's updated now, still not buying it though, it's obvious what Kanye wrote and what he didn't.

[Kodiak33]

Nothing with music, just talent overall.

[Demogorgon]

I really like this album musically, and I really hope somehow that an instrumental version appears somewhere, because I don't like the lyrics, and I don't like the vocals. I tune them out in the car.

[botley]

This record isn't even a polished turd.

[jmtd]

I love the bit where he rhymes "god" with "god", perhaps seven times. Also, sticking "ass" in places where the cadence falls short is the work of a master: French-ass restaurant indeed.

[frankie teardrop]

try to set the night on...fire.

yeah, count me in for another who enjoys how challenging this record is for a MAINSTREAM act (hardly for the underground), but thinks kanye is such a weak emcee with borderline misogynistic rhymes that it just spoils the whole pot. puff daddy part II.

[Kid Charlemagne]

I can handle Kanye's misogyny, it's not a good thing, but it's somewhat tolerable when you compare it to Tyler the Creator or to a lesser extent, Action Bronson.

[screwdriver]

Enjoyable album throughout! It felt like a mesh between the chaos of MBDTF (Black Skinhead, I'm In It) and the more subdued nature of 808's (Blood on the Leaves, Guilt Trip) The instrumentals/beats are top-class, like always - I got NIN and Crystal Castle vibes almost everywhere. It also felt like Kanye purposefully left out his slowjam samples he's known for in favor of other genres; aside from Bound 2, he mainly used them as abrupt interludes.

My biggest shock is that other than King Louie there aren't any guest rappers on the album; reminds me of when Jay-Z did the same on The Blueprint. I was in shock that 2 Chainz or Rick Ross didn't get a chance squeeze a line in somewhere.

Crystal castles! Thank you! I've been thinking "this sounds so like... Something" but couldn't place it ... That was it!

[october_midnight]

Fuck this pile of garbage!

[Jinsai]

I know I'm just adding to the drift here, but to say that Saul Williams isn't a big deal outside of NIN circles is unfair.

That said, I do think that people around here tend to get a little too excited about Tardust for a couple reasons. One being the obvious involvement of Reznor, and the other being that for a lot of people it's their opportunity to pretend to like hip hop.

I think it's an ok album, but not his best... and it has its share of embarrassing moments.

Back on topic, I like the new Kanye album on a whole, but some of it really fucking sucks. Blood on the Leaves sounds like he's gargling mouthwash into a vocoder, and the Strange Fruit sample is pretty unacceptable. Maybe I'll get over it, since I eventually forgave him for the time he let Chris Rock ramble about reupholstered pussy on top of Avril 14th. But "thank god almighty, they're free at last" to talk about tits? That's pretty shitty.

Speaking of which, this album completely overdoses on misogyny. It's not that the lyrics are frequently "clever" word play jokes that aren't funny, he's bringing back the "bitches aint shit" like it's 1990 all over again. It's one of the hardest pitfalls of classic hip hop to overlook, and it's something that I thought we were all glad was well on its way out. With Kanye west being commonly referred to as a revolutionary genius (meh), it's unfortunate that he's resurrecting this bullshit in a really crass way.

Maybe that's part of the problem for me too. It's hard not to come at this album with completely overblown expectations, and not just because Kanye likes to praise himself in a way that's pretty goddamn obnoxious. He's full of himself, and everyone seems eager to back him up, and with a title like "Yeezus," part of me has to admit that I'd love to hate the album.

It's not bad though, and it's pretty innovative and musically interesting. Album of the year though? Not this year. Hell no.

[neorev]

Let's see, the music is great on this album... I'll give it that
And there's some moments of pure genius from Kanye and lots of pure crap... about 25% genius and 75% crap
Kanye has surrounded himself with talented people... and it's those people that make what's good on this album good
"Black Skinhead" is a moment where it all works, even with Kanye, and I wish there was more of that
Where the track transcends the usual commercial rap bullshit of "I'm so rich" and "I'm so fly" and has actual social commentary and meaning
I wish he would stick with that and become an actual lyricist rather than the bragging silly lyrics and usual Kanye nonsense
I wish he stuck with being meaningful rather than delving into the usual cocky half-assed vocals
I read an article with Rick Rubin how most of the vocals weren't even written or recorded until last minute in only a few hours... and it shows
But the music is great... I'll give it that
But it's overshadowed by all that is Kanye... he just surrounded himself with people more talented than him
It's like Kanye is just a name... a brand... being carried by those working behind the scenes
But he is on to something and I hope he can hone in on that and grow into a real artist

[eversonpoe]

this shit is crazy
(http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/06/20/kanye-wests-blood-on-the-leaves-an-anti-abortion-anthem/)
besides the fact that i think the whole thing is bullshit, the article is trying waaaay too hard to be cerebral, and it comes off as being so pretentious and excessively wordy.

[allegro]

He doesn't seem to realize that "Strange Fruit" is about lynchings in the south.

[Bokononist]

He doesn't seem to realize that "Strange Fruit" is about lynchings in the south.

Yes he does.

I'm not seeing "excessively wordy" and the only piece that's comes off as stilted is that quote from Jodi Rosen.

[allegro]

Yes he does.
It was difficult to ascertain that because he's focusing so much on the abortion thesis that the history of the song is difficult to separate from his own thesis.

Anyway, it's an interesting analysis but I don't think his thesis is supported by the text.

Oh and God text ... is awful. Ugh. I had to go locate the text to understand the above critique and I'll never get that wasted time back again. I'm gonna go wash my brain out with Ralph Ellison.

[Presideo]

But it's overshadowed by all that is Kanye... he just surrounded himself with people more talented than him. It's like Kanye is just a name... a brand... being carried by those working behind the scenes

You're right, it's all a big conspiracy by the Illuminati to use Kanye for bigger, sinister plans. They've aligned him with the best musicians known to man, including the illustrious Kid Cudi and Chief Keef, in an attempt to oversaturate the media with their own message while using Kanye as their superstar mediator.

But seriously, whats with all the talk about Kanye using other, better musicians/producers to do the real work for him? NEWSFLASH: artists have other musicians working with them behind the scenes! Even the great El-P has extra producers, composers, and musicians that help him out while recording albums. The thought that Kanye isn't doing anything because he has a production team is ludicrous. Saying Kanye would be nothing without his production team is like saying Michael Jackson would be nothing without Quincy Jones or Radiohead would be nothing without Nigel Godrich.

[botley]

Yeah, but the production on this album is SHITTY. They didn't bother with properly finishing the record, it just sorta pooped out when they had ten passable demos. Poorly balanced mixes, poorly edited loops, AWFUL autotune melodies that aren't more than a few notes anyway, it's a complete fucking embarrassment.

[fortheloveofgod]

So was the album art. Looking forward to Jay-z's album. That one should has a little more promise I think.

[Presideo]

Yeah, but the production on this album is SHITTY. They didn't bother with properly finishing the record, it just sorta pooped out when they had ten passable demos. Poorly balanced mixes, poorly edited loops, AWFUL autotune melodies that aren't more than a few notes anyway, it's a complete fucking embarrassment.

That was a given after the clipping fiasco of MBDTF. I noticed the songs were mixed poorly together (On Sight was loud as fuck, most of the songs that followed were too soft), but nothing too embarrassing.


Looking forward to Jay-z's album. That one should has a little more promise I think.

I'm sure Samsung Galaxy presents Magna Carta Holy Grail (sponsored by Mountain Dew) will be great! Rumor has it that it might have a Smells Like Teen Spirit sample used in it!

[Space Suicide]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/5b9e9912a0a365ec9d6c4fef452d155c/tumblr_mocrvfVesA1s7d6pmo1_500.jpg

[thefragile_jake]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/5b9e9912a0a365ec9d6c4fef452d155c/tumblr_mocrvfVesA1s7d6pmo1_500.jpg

This is incredible.

I think Yeezus has had incredible staying power in my ears since the week it leaked. I haven't been able to stop listening to it and it's minimalism and aggression are still as powerful as the first time I heard it.

Top five material for me for sure.

[october_midnight]

The Yeezus Sessions (http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/9157-the-yeezus-sessions/)

Discussions with a bunch of collaborators on the album...pretty interesting stuff in there.

[Flauros]

The beat for "Blood on the Leaves" is so fucking dope, but the lyrics are retarded. If Kanye put out an instrumental version of Yeezus I might buy it.

[Demogorgon]

i agree. i've listened to the album several more times now and i just can't get over how good it is musically. but his lyrics... gods, they are horrible.

[mfte]

I am starting to get over the horrible lyrics. The thing that I can't get over is the autotune on Blood On The Leaves. He shouldve had someone else sing it.

I also think that if he put one more "aggressive" song in the back half, the album would feel more cohesive as a whole.


BUT I am liking it more the more that i listen to it.

[screwdriver]

i agree. i've listened to the album several more times now and i just can't get over how good it is musically. but his lyrics... gods, they are horrible.

maybe I'm just deluding myself but I've started to see something really clever going on with the lyrics. there's a casualness to the misogyny that its coming across like a pretty meaningful critique; and the way it conflates materialism with the civil rights movement seems like a pretty interesting critique -- especially when he invokes the prison industrial complex. or... maybe I'm doing exactly what I was wondering if other people were doing a few pages ago: projecting my own values onto these lyrics

[thefragile_jake]

That's one thing I'm surprised I keep seeing about this record is the lyrics...it makes me wonder how much other Kanye West records people have listened to or even just a lot of hip hop in general...?

Kanye is a creative writer, he's nowhere near the wordsmith I think that an MF Doom is...but he's far better and much more interesting than peers like Wiz Khalifa, Pusha T and Kid Cudi....I even enjoy what he has to say moreso than his big brother Jay Z. If you listen to older records of his, the lyrics follow a similar pattern...he brings some new things to the table...but a lot of what he's saying is pretty standard West material.

I think people either over analyze and under analyze a lot of what he has to say, some of these things are supposed to be tongue in cheek and not taken too seriously but he has a way of mix things together to have a nice flow I LOVE the production on this record but as someone earlier mentioned, instrumental versions might just drive you insane...in my opinion, it's the incredible music, beats and production value along with Kanye's intensity and personality that makes this such a great listen and one of the best of the year.

[Kid Charlemagne]

That's one thing I'm surprised I keep seeing about this record is the lyrics...it makes me wonder how much other Kanye West records people have listened to or even just a lot of hip hop in general...?

Kanye is a creative writer, he's nowhere near the wordsmith I think that an MF Doom is...but he's far better and much more interesting than peers like Wiz Khalifa, Pusha T and Kid Cudi....I even enjoy what he has to say moreso than his big brother Jay Z. If you listen to older records of his, the lyrics follow a similar pattern...he brings some new things to the table...but a lot of what he's saying is pretty standard West material.

I think people either over analyze and under analyze a lot of what he has to say, some of these things are supposed to be tongue in cheek and not taken too seriously but he has a way of mix things together to have a nice flow I LOVE the production on this record but as someone earlier mentioned, instrumental versions might just drive you insane...in my opinion, it's the incredible music, beats and production value along with Kanye's intensity and personality that makes this such a great listen and one of the best of the year.

I'm pretty much in agreement with it. I think the only guy who comes close to Kanye's cleverness in lyrics is Weezy in his prime (Tha Carter-Tha Carter III). He's not the best, but I do think he's better than his contemporaries (gotta disagree on Pusha T though, dude writes some dark and insightful shit that's just crazy). Kanye is able to make references to things that are just hilarious, obscure, and sometime thought provoking, sometimes all at the same time. I think his personality brings it to life, he's over the top and borderline insane, but with that, I think it makes it.

Pitchfork has a good read on the album and a core group of guys who worked on it, they all pretty much think he's great:http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/9157-the-yeezus-sessions/

[Tiz]

MBDTF, Watch the Throne, and Yeesus are the only albums in which he brought a bunch of people in to work on. His other stuff is all him, and its fucking great. Yes, he's a huge douche, but he is a genius.

I am glad people enjoy his music, but this album sounds like a 15 year-old pirated a copy of FL Studio, and went bezerk on tin-sounding synthesizers, paid no mind to solid production values, and voila uploaded to his MySpace account like it's 2005 again.

[botley]

this album sounds like a 15 year-old pirated a copy of FL Studio, and went bezerk on tin-sounding synthesizers, paid no mind to solid production values, and voila uploaded to his MySpace account like it's 2005 again.
Agreed, except that I did better than this (or at least had the restraint to not ruin it with cringe-worthy vocal takes) in summer 2000, and MP3.com was where I uploaded it. The backing track of "Black Skinhead" (screams and all) sounds EXACTLY like what I threw together in Cool Edit Pro 2.0 on my parents' desktop running Windows 98.

[Magtig]

Agreed, except that I did better than this (or at least had the restraint to not ruin it with cringe-worthy vocal takes) in summer 2000, and MP3.com was where I uploaded it. The backing track of "Black Skinhead" (screams and all) sounds EXACTLY like what I threw together in Cool Edit Pro 2.0 on my parents' desktop running Windows 98.
Can we hear it?

[botley]

I'll see if I can dig it up; in the meantime, I'll just leave this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTrSI8EVvo

[Presideo]

...and here comes the production geeks..."I HEAR CLIPPING...FUCK THIS PEDESTRIAN MIX...DO THEY EVEN EQ?"

I hope there's a special place in hell reserved for pretentious audiophiles who think they're the god of audio engineering because they have overpriced headphones and know how to tinker with a DAW (I used to be one of those guys…I grew up, though)

[xmd 5a]

I'm not even really a Kanye fan (bought the CD for my wife) but this new album is pretty great. Lots of cringeworthy lyrics, but I can tune them out easily enough. I really like the rough, sparse, "unfinished" nature of the music. The last 4 or so tracks aren't as convincing as the rest of the album but I'm liking it overall at least as much as ...Twisted Fantasy.

[screwdriver]

I'm not even really a Kanye fan (bought the CD for my wife) but this new album is pretty great. Lots of cringeworthy lyrics, but I can tune them out easily enough. I really like the rough, sparse, "unfinished" nature of the music. The last 4 or so tracks aren't as convincing as the rest of the album but I'm liking it overall at least as much as ...Twisted Fantasy.

The last few tracks took awhile to click for me. I'm still not crazy about the last song, but otherwise I think they're all great.

[Max Leo]

I am glad people enjoy his music, but this album sounds like a 15 year-old pirated a copy of FL Studio, and went bezerk on tin-sounding synthesizers, paid no mind to solid production values, and voila uploaded to his MySpace account like it's 2005 again.
I know a guy from other music message board that is NOT a fan of NIN and said that TDS sounded like the stuff he could do with Fruity Loops in 10 minutes...

I don't care much about Kanye's lyrics because english is not my native language and I can mostly "disconnect" by not paying much attention, this way I just don't know what he is saying most of the time (I do this with a lot of english music, and this is why I like it, I can't stand music in my own language because I'm forced to understand everything and that usually ruins the music for me XD), but I've been listening to Kanye's discography during all this last week and I think that his music is excellent (I can even listen to 808s without being annoyed by the constant autotune), including the music for this last album, I don't know how a 15 year old with a pirated copy of FL could create an album like this tbh, because in my ears it sounds pretty good, but maybe I just don't know much about music writing and production.

I know Kanye can be an asshole, but I like other musicians that are not the best people in the world, Prince is an asshole too but Sign Of The Times is a fucking masterpiece (I'm not saying KW is as good as 80s Prince, it's just an example). And I find some of his lyrics even funny, "those damn croissants" in the french restaurant make me chuckle like a dumb kid everytime. It's not Shakespeare, but I like a song like "I Am a God" (even if I'm an antireligion atheist, I just ignore the parts where he talks about being a man of god, because I just don't know many atheist mainstream rappers) where he doesn't hide how egocentric he can be, because he rathers be a dick than a swallower, lol. I just have to like the guy, he is like a big brat, a 10 years old minded man that has a big studio and millions of dollars instead of just a pirated copy of FL, he probably has the best FL version OF ALL TIME.

[mfte]

...and here comes the production geeks..."I HEAR CLIPPING...FUCK THIS PEDESTRIAN MIX...DO THEY EVEN EQ?"

I hope there's a special place in hell reserved for pretentious audiophiles who think they're the god of audio engineering because they have overpriced headphones and know how to tinker with a DAW (I used to be one of those guys…I grew up, though)

When there's no more room in hell, the dead shall post on gearslutz.

[Presideo]

I know a guy from other music message board that is NOT a fan of NIN and said that TDS sounded like the stuff he could do with Fruity Loops in 10 minutes...

Sure, a heavily-looped track with a standard time signature like Reptile wouldn't be very difficult to replicate. But only the real pro's, like Reznor, can steal an obscure Bowie track and call it their own - that's the mark of a true musician! ;)

A large percentage of rap/pop music can be replicated on FL Studio with relative ease - they're usually 4/4 looped songs with a clear verse and chorus. But using the ole "I could have created that 10 years ago" line is probably the lowest form of criticism you can dish out. I can replicate a Piet Mondrian painting in Microsoft Paint in under an hour, but that doesn't mean that the original isn't good.


I think the only guy who comes close to Kanye's cleverness in lyrics is Weezy in his prime (Tha Carter-Tha Carter III). He's not the best, but I do think he's better than his contemporaries (gotta disagree on Pusha T though, dude writes some dark and insightful shit that's just crazy). Kanye is able to make references to things that are just hilarious, obscure, and sometime thought provoking, sometimes all at the same time. I think his personality brings it to life, he's over the top and borderline insane, but with that, I think it makes it.

Kanye can come up with some pretty slick, catchy lines. "Hanging out the window, it's about to be a Suge Knight"..."too many Urkels on your time, that's while you're Winslow"..."Prince William ain't do it right if you ask me / if I was him I woulda married Kate and Ashley" Not exactly Shakespeare, but clever lines nonetheless.

And nobody could touch Pusha during the golden days of Clipse. Modern-day Push is hit or miss, though (still anticipating his new album)

[botley]

I'm not criticizing the album because it sounds outdated or simple, I'm criticizing how lazily it was produced; there is a big difference. If Kanye and his producers want to call themselves professional music-makers, there should be a certain standard of craftsmanship that comes with the territory.

I hope there's a special place in hell reserved for pretentious audiophiles who think they're the god of audio engineering because they have overpriced headphones and know how to tinker with a DAW (I used to be one of those guys…I grew up, though)
My headphones aren't overpriced, but I have good ears and have worked in recording studios. The only one claiming to be a god is the person who's album we're talking about... but I do draw a paycheck from how much other people trust my taste in audio.

[mfte]

I'm not criticizing the album because it sounds outdated or simple, I'm criticizing how lazily it was produced; there is a big difference. If Kanye and his producers want to call themselves professional music-makers, there should be a certain standard of craftsmanship that comes with the territory.

My headphones aren't overpriced, but I have good ears and have worked in recording studios. The only one claiming to be a god is the person who's album we're talking about... but I do draw a paycheck from how much other people trust my taste in audio.

What is it about this album that you find that lazy?

[Presideo]

I'll agree that the mixing feels off, especially the overdriven opener, but (and forgive me if I'm wrong here) isn't that a problem with the mastering, not the actual production?

I guess the samples on 'Blood on the Leaves' and 'Bound 2' come off as lazy, but that's completely subjective to the listener. I personally find them well-established in the songs.

[mfte]

I don't buy it. Any interview I read from Kanye, Rick Rubin, and others involved keeps talking about how a lot of these songs were really busy with lots of instrumentation and were purposely stripped to their bare bones. Everyone who made the record has been stressing how this was an exercise in minimalism and making more with less. As far as the mixing and mastering everything sounds fine to me. The opener is very distorted, and the more you distort the more you sacrifice in terms of frequency response. Sure they couldve layered more into it to make it bombastic but that would have defeated the entire concept they were going for. Do you listen to Mr Selfdestruct and complain that it was lazily produced because Trent ran the entire song through a preamp and made it sounds like ass?

Bound2 sounds just fine. Look at someone like Ghostface who was one of the first to popularize rapping a whole song over a straight loop with no extra layers or drums (The Sun, All That I Got is You). Thats the style. PLUS Rick Rubin said how that song had a lot more instrumentation and was more of an RnB song before he got Kanye to strip everything from it.

[Jinsai]

The opener is very distorted, and the more you distort the more you sacrifice in terms of frequency response.

Are you mistaking clipping for distortion, and headroom for "frequency response," or are you talking about dynamics?


If I hear one more person try to tell me that "Kanye West is the greatest producer ever" I'm going to kill someone. There's a lot of things to praise here, but holy fuck can people please stop trying to pawn him off as a great producer (now that we all basically agree that Rick Rubin sits on his couch and offers occasional advice).

[botley]

Let me explain: to my ear, which has a certain amount of training in music production (although, I grant you, I am nowhere near the level where I get paid to make records on a regular basis), I can hear when things have progressed to a certain point with an artist who is working on their own song in the studio. This is the point where they feel they have a version of the song that is fully assembled, with a rough pass of vocals, a few drum programming elements locked together with other samples or keyboard lines, and an arrangement they like. It's definitely not fully finished but the rough shape is there. The reason I say "fully finished" is, crucially, thanks to how people record on computers nowadays (even with guys like Trent Reznor who are really good at it), songwriting and production and arrangement are usually all part of one process, and the song isn't complete until the production side is polished as well.

According to Rick Rubin, Kanye had more than three hours (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/06/26/rick-rubin-on-crashing-kanye-s-album-in-15-days.html) of "meandering, unfocused" songs... just a giant pile of stuff he had amassed at this level of work-in-progress that I describe, which you can STILL hear all over Yeezus. Rubin whittled that massive steaming turd down to just a forty-minute turd in a matter of days... not by finishing songs off, but by culling anything that was totally unfit for public consumption and editing parts of it into some kind of recognizable shape. Kanye apparently sang most of his parts on the record in two hours.

That's not an artistic statement, that's a rush job to meet a DEADLINE enforced by the fact that his girlfriend was having their baby and the record was timed to drop at the same time.

[mfte]

Are you mistaking clipping for distortion, and headroom for "frequency response," or are you talking about dynamics?




Im saying that once you start distorting something (a drum loop) you start losing things like bass frequency and things tend to go tin-y in the higher register of the signal. You also loose dynamic range depending on the level of distortion. Since the entire opener seem to be run through some kind of distortionator it would explain why someone thinks that it sounds "shitty".

[Tiz]

I know a guy from other music message board that is NOT a fan of NIN and said that TDS sounded like the stuff he could do with Fruity Loops in 10 minutes...


It's not like I dislike this record for some audiophiliac way. It's just the first critique that came to mind. I'm extremely picky. Fucking Butch Vig's Nirvana record pissed me off, and I still cannot listen to it 20 years later. I'm weird like that. If a 'good record' is badly produced -- I cannot do it. I'm no Pitchfork dude. It's just how I am. Picky as Hell. But it's why I respect that folks can dig this music. I'm glad that people can find good things in different music. I can hear Kanye's penchant for song structure. I can see why people dig him in that way. He's got some sonic wit in his music, which is sorely needed in pop.

[koz-ivan]

I know a guy from other music message board that is NOT a fan of NIN and said that TDS sounded like the stuff he could do with Fruity Loops in 10 minutes...


the problem i have with that type of argument, is that fruity loops wasn't even available until the end of 1997. TDS was released in march 1994.

[koz-ivan]

That's not an artistic statement, that's a rush job to meet a DEADLINE enforced by the fact that his girlfriend was having their baby and the record was timed to drop at the same time.

in some senses it is more of a throwback to when studio time was expensive and bands had to record quickly.

[botley]

in some senses it is more of a throwback to when studio time was expensive and bands had to record quickly.
In those days, bands worked HARD when they were outside the studio: hours and hours, night after night, playing in shitty clubs and bars, rehearsing in basements, putting in the time so that they could deliver the goods when it was their moment to make that all-important 45 single. Now you can record literally everything you do, good or bad, and spend your studio time just lining it up in a digital multitrack session until it sounds decent. THAT'S FUCKING LAZY, whether you do it yourself or get Rick Rubin to do it for you.

[Presideo]

Rubin over-embellishing a story to make himself seem like the Super-Man of music production? I doubt a man of such high-regard would do something like that…then again...

This reminds of a debate about The Slip a few weeks ago on a NIN thread - someone claimed that the album was a half-assed rush job, and his only proof to his claim was an interview where Reznor stated that he imposed a deadline as an experiment. Most users, including myself, expressed the merit of a deadline and the fact that a deadline doesn't necessarily mean that the project was half-assed. If you don't like the album just state that you don't like the album. Don't run in circles while trying to establish your subjective view as a fact.

Yeezus is critically acclaimed and most fans seem to enjoy it. It's the 3rd-highest selling album this year and didn't have a radio single, music vid, or even artwork - if it's a polished turd then Kanye is shitting out diamonds.

[mfte]

In those days, bands worked HARD when they were outside the studio: hours and hours, night after night, playing in shitty clubs and bars, rehearsing in basements, putting in the time so that they could deliver the goods when it was their moment to make that all-important 45 single. Now you can record literally everything you do, good or bad, and spend your studio time just lining it up in a digital multitrack session until it sounds decent. THAT'S FUCKING LAZY, whether you do it yourself or get Rick Rubin to do it for you.

You are a tough nut to crack. SO what you found out that a record that you liked was made my lining up shit in a multitrack? Is it the process that you find more offensive or the product?

I am certain that Trent will just play along to a loop for 20 min and then pick out what sounds cool. Is that lazy?

I'm trying to understand.

[botley]

It's not enough in a debate about music production techniques to establish that you do or don't like something; that isn't really criticism. It's not even really a debate (yes it is, said John Cleese at the Arguments desk). I'm not interested in whether or not Kanye's vocal or lyric-writing abilities are what the music critics say they are, as that's not my area of expertise. I know what I like, but I've tried not to let that influence my critique here — although it inevitably does, a bit. I do agree that Kanye is entertaining as a celebrity persona and can write some catchy bumper-sticker hooks: I've danced like a fool to "Gold Digger", just like most music-loving North Americans have, black and white. All I'm saying (and attempting to back up with evidence) is that the production on this album is a lazy slapped-together affair and that torpedoes it for me.

John Lennon was an amazing performer in his best years but he made some lousy records too that suffered from atrocious production. That's not just my opinion, either. Most critics would agree with that assessment, even though they love the Beatles... hell, even the ones who wrote good reviews of those solo albums when they first came out. Bad production does not stand the test of time.

[r_z]

Pardon me, but that stacking-multitracks-is-lazy-argument is silly. It's state of the art producing in 2013 (and has been for many years).

[Jinsai]

Im saying that once you start distorting something (a drum loop) you start losing things like bass frequency and things tend to go tin-y in the higher register of the signal. You also loose dynamic range depending on the level of distortion. Since the entire opener seem to be run through some kind of distortionator it would explain why someone thinks that it sounds "shitty".

Ok, I'm going to admit that I don't know what a distortionator is (besides the name for a really shitty metal band), but you're losing me here. You can apply multiband distortion that excludes low end frequencies, and this applies to hardware and software effects. Plugins like Ohmicide and Audio Damage's Kombinat allow you to directly target the frequencies you want to distort. I'm just saying this isn't a rule of thumb.

On a somewhat related side note, hearing clipping on a track isn't just annoying for "pretentious audiophiles." That just sucks, you don't need expensive monitors to hear it, it sounds like bullshit to everyone, and being complacent about it is a little bit unnecessary.

[screwdriver]

Ok, I'm going to admit that I don't know what a distortionator is (besides the name for a really shitty metal band), but you're losing me here. You can apply multiband distortion that excludes low end frequencies, and this applies to hardware and software effects. Plugins like Ohmicide and Audio Damage's Kombinat allow you to directly target the frequencies you want to distort. I'm just saying this isn't a rule of thumb.

On a somewhat related side note, hearing clipping on a track isn't just annoying for "pretentious audiophiles." That just sucks, you don't need expensive monitors to hear it, it sounds like bullshit to everyone, and being complacent about it is a little bit unnecessary.

just for the record, I AM a pretentious audiophile, and I enjoy clipping on some tracks when it suits the track. but, whatever. I think back to how when they first discovered amp distortion on guitars and whatnot, it was the worst thing ever and people would spend a lot of money trying to minimize amp distortion, and gradually people realized it sounded awesome in the right context. I think clipping is the same thing. It's just a sound. Sounds are neither good or bad. It's all about context.

I say that without any commentary on the Kanye album. I just think the idea that "[clipping] sounds like bullshit to everyone" is... bullshit.

[eversonpoe]

just for the record, I AM a pretentious audiophile, and I enjoy clipping on some tracks when it suits the track. but, whatever. I think back to how when they first discovered amp distortion on guitars and whatnot, it was the worst thing ever and people would spend a lot of money trying to minimize amp distortion, and gradually people realized it sounded awesome in the right context. I think clipping is the same thing. It's just a sound. Sounds are neither good or bad. It's all about context.

I say that without any commentary on the Kanye album. I just think the idea that "[clipping] sounds like bullshit to everyone" is... bullshit.

not trying to be combative, but could you give me an example of when clipping sounds good on a track? i'm a big fan of intentional distortion and odd effects, but clipping is LITERALLY missing audio (in digital context, because there technically is no clipping in analog recording). when something clips, it means that the digital conversion of the analog signal is failing to record bits of the sound. i can't imagine that ever sounding good.

[Jinsai]

not trying to be combative, but could you give me an example of when clipping sounds good on a track?

I was going to say the exact same thing. Sure, resampling intentionally brickwalled clipping can be cool and abrasive, but when it's just obvious clipping on EVERY track.. what's an example of that sort of thing sounding good

[screwdriver]

I was going to say the exact same thing. Sure, resampling intentionally brickwalled clipping can be cool and abrasive, but when it's just obvious clipping on EVERY track.. what's an example of that sort of thing sounding good

well, just to be clear, you're saying two different things. eversonpoe asked for a track, you're making a statement about "EVERY track."

your mileage may vary, but I like the way Yeezus sounds, just to pick the most obvious example -- that intro on "On Sight" sounds super cool to me. I'm in the distinct minority, but I thought some of the clipping on Death Magnetic sounded cool; take a song like "All Nightmare Long" and when they play it live, it sounds like it's missing something. My point isn't that you have to like it, more that I don't have to dislike it? Again, it's context.

Pointing out that clipping is "LITERALLY missing audio" as evidence for it never sounding good seems weird to me. A lot of Lo-Fi effects use various ways of intentionally clipping audio, and that can sound really rad ... I mean, that's a lot of Reznor's oeuvre. So I'm assuming you mean clipping in the context of "on an entire track"? Because I just ... don't agree that it can never sound good.

Distortion is "LITERALLY" changing the waveform of a sound, but that doesn't mean it's bad? Clipping is taking information out of the song, which changes the waveform that hits your ear. I'm not sure why one is acceptable but the other can never be good. I guess I'm a sonic relativist.

[Jinsai]

well, just to be clear, you're saying two different things. eversonpoe asked for a track, you're making a statement about "EVERY track."

your mileage may vary, but I like the way Yeezus sounds, just to pick the most obvious example -- that intro on "On Sight" sounds super cool to me. I'm in the distinct minority, but I thought some of the clipping on Death Magnetic sounded cool; take a song like "All Nightmare Long" and when they play it live, it sounds like it's missing something. My point isn't that you have to like it, more that I don't have to dislike it? Again, it's context.

You thought the clipping audio on Death Magnetic "sounded good?" Are you sure you just didn't like the music despite it?

I'm not saying you can't intentionally brickwall a sound to give it a lo-fi effect. That's a different thing than it being on the master channel, which never sounds good to me, unless we're talking about noise music, which is a different beast entirely.

[eversonpoe]

i guess the difference is manipulation vs. destruction? when something clips (and i'm talking about the master track of a final mix), you're destroying part of it because it's just...gone. that seems very different to me than using lo-fi effects to achieve a certain manipulated sound.

i'll actually give you an example of where i think something that almost sounds like clipping (but isn't) sounds good: james plotkin's atomsmasher/phantomsmasher, where he is actually credited in the liner notes with "waveform manipulation" and it sounds completely insane. he fucks up the audio completely, but i guarantee you that the master track stereo mix does not clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b18yZOzNlFs

[screwdriver]

You thought the clipping audio on Death Magnetic "sounded good?" Are you sure you just didn't like the music despite it?

I'm not saying you can't intentionally brickwall a sound to give it a lo-fi effect. That's a different thing than it being on the master channel, which never sounds good to me, unless we're talking about noise music, which is a different beast entirely.

yeah, I actually thought it sounded good. I liked the way the drums punched out and I think it was cool and unique. Do I want every album to sound like that? No. I like variety. I actually found the songs really boring when played live. but, you know, maybe my ears are backwards.

It just seems weird to me that you'll concede it can be a cool effect, but the whole song can't be an effect? You just don't have to like it. For example, I generally hate chorusing sounds, but I'd never say chorusing as an effect can't sound good and, to be honest, I'd be really interested to hear a mix that was chorused.

And then you concede that noise music can be different; I suppose that is some of what draws me towards these sounds. Or maybe I've ruined my ears listening to it too much. (Kidding, kind of.)