An Independent Scotland?

[slave2thewage]

Anyone else got their popcorn ready for the referendum on the 18th? This is pretty interesting stuff.

[icecream]

Lots of the media here seem to be anti-yes as well as much of the stuff I read from England. In Canada we have our own separatist situation here with Quebec. I fall into the camp of let the people decide. It will be interesting indeed. If Scotland separates, how will that effect you in Ireland, (being part of the UK and all)?

[slave2thewage]

Ireland isn't part of the UK, just so you know, so we won't really be affected. There is a chance that an independent Scotland could have very low taxes for multinationals in order to attract investment and so that could screw with our reputation for being the best little country for low taxes. Plus, Northern Ireland could become polarised again.

[icecream]

Wow, I'm stupid. Thanks for the clarification.

I guess it won't be as bad as lots of the UK politicians are trying to say will be?

[slave2thewage]

I guess it won't be as bad as lots of the UK politicians are trying to say will be?

This is a problem I've noticed - the "yes" side is very vague on a lot of things. It almost seems it consists of "it's okay, just vote for independence and then we'll sort it out in negotiations".

[aggroculture]

I just don't think more nationalism is the answer to anything: smaller and smaller nations, why?
To me it reinforces these ideas of people=nationality=race, none of that is good.
The EU I welcome, even though it has been going through tough times: more nation states I just can't see the upside.
I've always felt the nation state as an imprisoning, inadequate way of living.

[Deepvoid]

Lots of the media here seem to be anti-yes as well as much of the stuff I read from England. In Canada we have our own separatist situation here with Quebec. I fall into the camp of let the people decide. It will be interesting indeed. If Scotland separates, how will that effect you in Ireland, (being part of the UK and all)?

If course Canada is anti-yes. It would be a disaster for Canada to see Scotland vote for independence. Can you imagine if they do vote yes and become a successful country on their own.
This would give a significant boost the movement in Quebec.

FWIW, I hate the term "separation". There's this negative connotation about the word I do not like.

[icecream]

FWIW, I hate the term "separation". There's this negative connotation about the word I do not like.
That's a good point. What do you use instead?

[Deepvoid]

That's a good point. What do you use instead?

I've always used the term "independence".

A new poll conducted by the "no" camp had them in the lead by 7 point 47 to 40.
It's going to be very interesting to see how it unfold.

Fun fact: Out of 150 referendums held since 1914, only three resulted in the "no" camp winning. Two of those are from Quebec.

[sheepdean]

FOR FREEDOM

As an Englishman, I personally support Scottish independence, but I also fear it as that means we lose our liberal lean in the UK

[tony.parente]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk
Hysterically relevant.

[Vertigo]

Rather hilarious that the Falklands are apparently more British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013) than Scotland.

[DF118]

First: the BBC can fuck right off (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum). How dare they.

Second: I've had maybe, five or six people in the US take it upon themselves to tell me exactly how I should vote, and why. One guy was surprisingly educated on the subject. Nevertheless, they can fuck off too.

Actually everyone just fuck off.

Regardless of the outcome, the Better Together campaign has been a disaster. The following is a real advert, patronizing and sexist to the extent it likely had the opposite effect on the polls than intended. There has been palpable anger about this, evidenced by the countless memes and spoofs it's sprouted:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU

[scotty79]

There's been far too much scaremongering from the no camp especially about banks and supermarkets moving there head offices to England or prices being raised which I don't believe for a minute will happen just because of independence, yes oil won't last forever but nobody can say for definite how long it will last and how much we could utilise the gains from it before it does happen, I for one think we can survive without Westminster rule, it may and probably will take a while for the good to come from it but I'm willing to take that chance

[WorzelG]

First: the BBC can fuck right off (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum). How dare they.

Second: I've had maybe, five or six people in the US take it upon themselves to tell me exactly how I should vote, and why. One guy was surprisingly educated on the subject. Nevertheless, they can fuck off too.

Actually everyone just fuck off.

Regardless of the outcome, the Better Together campaign has been a disaster. The following is a real advert, patronizing and sexist to the extent it likely had the opposite effect on the polls than intended. There has been palpable anger about this, evidenced by the countless memes and spoofs it's sprouted:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU
Your location is NYC - do you have a postal vote or something?

As an Englishwoman living in Wales I hope they vote no otherwise Plaid fucking Cymru will have a field day here

[Deepvoid]

I've had the chance to live through the 1995 Quebec referendum and I'm seeing a carbon copy of the tactics used by the "no" camp.
Campaign of fear, deceit, and lies. Same tactics Canada used in 1995.
At the end of the day, it worked because the ones that were on the fence, ultimately leaned towards the safer option.

One thing Scotland is doing better than Quebec is informing their voters.

[WorzelG]

I've had the chance to live through the 1995 Quebec referendum and I'm seeing a carbon copy of the tactics used by the "no" camp.
Campaign of fear, deceit, and lies. Same tactics Canada used in 1995.
At the end of the day, it worked because the ones that were on the fence, ultimately leaned towards the safer option.

One thing Scotland is doing better than Quebec is informing their voters.
If by informing you mean they are saying 'oh don't worry about the fact that new countries entering the EU are supposed to join the euro when we don't want to, I'm sure we'll figure it out', then yes they are being informed that there are tons of unanswered questions suggesting Salmond hasn't done his homework

[Sutekh]

There's been far too much scaremongering from the no camp especially about banks and supermarkets moving there head offices to England or prices being raised which I don't believe for a minute will happen just because of independence, yes oil won't last forever but nobody can say for definite how long it will last and how much we could utilise the gains from it before it does happen, I for one think we can survive without Westminster rule, it may and probably will take a while for the good to come from it but I'm willing to take that chance

Except... the Royal Bank of Scotland have said they would definitely move to London, and the biggest employer in Scotland (Clyde base) would relocate to Plymouth.

You can survive without Westminster but this is a muppet campaign, Northern Ireland has substantial autonomy and yet remains in the Union (liblbcon just don't exist there) - and I say this as an Irish Nationalist

[DF118]

Your location is NYC - do you have a postal vote or something?

As an Englishwoman living in Wales I hope they vote no otherwise Plaid fucking Cymru will have a field day here

I'm an expat of two years. Votes have been restricted from non-residents due to "complexity". I'm leaning towards Yes in general.

[scotty79]

They also said that they had no intention of moving operations or jobs to London so who knows, also Scotland is already pretty much independent from the rest as it is, we can't even use Scottish bank notes in England yet told that we can't share the pound even though ours is useless down south

[Sutekh]

No intention of moving jobs... so is the headquarters going to be run by robots, or will they be moving a core of highly paid staff to London... seems odd!

I really am on the fence, I believe regionalism and greater autonomy from London is the way forward for all of the UK, but there has to be a plan

People talk of scaremongering but pointing out bad things that definitely will happen is not scaremongering anymore than a warning on a cigarette packet is

[Deepvoid]

If by informing you mean they are saying 'oh don't worry about the fact that new countries entering the EU are supposed to join the euro when we don't want to, I'm sure we'll figure it out', then yes they are being informed that there are tons of unanswered questions suggesting Salmond hasn't done his homework

They still doing a better job than. I mean, the question itself in 1995 was vague as shit.
I'll admit, I went a bit on an assumption there as I was under impression that the "yes" camp was doing a decent job.
My bad.

[slave2thewage]

Northern Ireland has substantial autonomy and yet remains in the Union (liblbcon just don't exist there)

Yeah, but look at their ruling parties - Sinn Fein are shifty as fuck and the DUP are nutcases that make the Westboro Baptists look liberal.

[Sutekh]

aye but it's not the quality I'm judging it on, it's the degree of autonomy, NI is a different political universe to Britain. I thought it was pretty true what McGuiness said in his statement regarding Paisley's death - for all their differences they agreed that regional groups and individuals could sort it out better than the London government could

[DF118]

This is funny- basically all his recent rhetoric boils down to.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQPEMf3j6AY

[Deepvoid]

Latest poll has the "yes" at 49%

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/latest-scottish-independence-poll-ipsos-mori

[botley]

What a nail-biter. Truly every vote counts today. Good luck Scotland!

[GulDukat]

There's a great piece on the editorial page in today's NYT about the referendum, written by a pro-yes Scotsman. I can certainly see the rationale for independence.

[Digital Twilight]

I'm an Englishman and I fully approve of Scotland getting their independence. There is a lot of uncertaincy about becoming their own country but I see no reason on a long term basis why they can't make it work. Westminster has done nothing but shit on them for a long time (and the rest of the UK) why you wouldn't want to break away from all the corruption, inequality and make a go at it yourselves is beyond me. It really is putting your own destiny in your own hands run by people who care for Scotland. Sure it won't be perfect and they'll be corruption etc still, there always will be but do you want to live with your parents all your life? Might be better financially but screw that, get your own place, throw a party, eat beans on toast for a few years but the long term benifits will be worth it IF you make the right choices in building that country.

I say don't cling on to the sinking ship, take a chance and swim for shore.

[scotty79]

My votes in, think I'll be setting my alarm for about 3 in the morning to see if the results are in yet

[Deepvoid]

Just found out that there are no exit polls.
I think I'm gonna stay up late for this one.

Go Scotland! Everyone in Quebec is watching.

[Dra508]

16 year olds can vote. Color me impressed.


U.S. Headlines this morning have Obama and Clinton suggesting a NO vote. Any Scot here going to listen to a 'Merican today?

[Digital Twilight]

My votes in, think I'll be setting my alarm for about 3 in the morning to see if the results are in yet

6am will be the official result. I think Aberdeen, Glasgow and Edinburugh are some of the last 3 to be counted and they are 25% of the electorate so it really will go down to the wire.

[scotty79]

That's even better then, I'll be just gettin up for work at that time

[icklekitty]

Westminster has done nothing but shit on them for a long time (and the rest of the UK) why you wouldn't want to break away from all the corruption, inequality and make a go at it yourselves is beyond me.

Hell, Westminster shits on the community that literally lives across the river from Parliament; I'm sure they barely remember Scotland exists.

Just don't screw us on whisky please.

[sheepdean]

53-47 against by the sole exit poll, this is going to go to the wire and it's so exciting

[bgalbraith]

The only Scottish pub in Boston is having an event to watch the results tonight. Really tempted to put on my kilt and head over there.

[bgalbraith]

Polls are closed. You can watch coverage here: http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/live
Also, interesting survey of the results from the last 50 country independence votes: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/sep/16/when-given-the-chance-countries-tend-to-say-yes-to-independence

[WorzelG]

There is a massive fuck off storm over Cardiff at the moment that started just after the referendum closed - like a portent of doom. at least 30 flashes of lightning so far, weird timing

[slave2thewage]

Minor references to early counts on the BBC article: East Lothian - No, Dundee - Yes.

[sheepdean]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results for the concise, what the votes are, answer.

More excited for this than any General Election

[Deepvoid]

Dundee has about 36,000 more electoral voters than EL.
This is nerve-racking.

[icecream]

Does anyone know how the question was worded?

[Deepvoid]

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

Compared to our terrible 1995 question.

"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

[marodi]

Does anyone know how the question was worded?

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

Awesome, isn't it?

As a comparison, here are the two questions asked for the Quebec Referendums:

1995: "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

1980: "The Government of Quebec has made public its proposal to negotiate a new agreement with the rest of Canada, based on the equality of nations; this agreement would enable Quebec to acquire the exclusive power to make its laws, levy its taxes and establish relations abroad - in other words, sovereignty - and at the same time to maintain with Canada an economic association including a common currency; any change in political status resulting from these negotiations will only be implemented with popular approval through another referendum; on these terms, do you give the Government of Quebec the mandate to negotiate the proposed agreement between Quebec and Canada?"

Yes or no.

[slave2thewage]

A tweet from a BBC correspondent claims that Glasgow will vote Yes. Very interesting.

I'm pretty sure Edinburgh is a No.

[icecream]

Yeah Quebec's question was a bit wordy. Glad Scotland's was to the point. Hope Quebec finally gets a fair chance in the future.

[Deepvoid]

Yeah I forgot about how FREAKING long that 1980 question was. Jesus ...

A week prior to the 1995 referendum, 28% of the undecided voters in Quebec thought voting "yes" would simply mean that would negotiate better conditions with the federal government. That's how terrible the "yes" campaign was. Yet, we still managed to get 49.42%

Fun fact: Statistics compiled by Citizenship and Immigration Canada show that some 43,855 new Quebecers obtained their Canadian citizenship during 1995. About one quarter of these (11,429) were granted their citizenship during the month of October(month the referendum was held). This was the only time in Canada's history that Quebec beat Ontario in terms of granting new citizenship. The year 1996 saw a drop of 39%

[icecream]

Yeah I forgot about how FREAKING long that 1980 question was. Jesus ...

A week prior to the 1995 referendum, 28% of the undecided voters in Quebec thought voting "yes" would simply mean that would negotiate better conditions with the federal government. That's how terrible the "yes" campaign was. Yet, we still managed to get 49.42%

Fun fact: Statistics compiled by Citizenship and Immigration Canada show that some 43,855 new Quebecers obtained their Canadian citizenship during 1995. About one quarter of these (11,429) were granted their citizenship during the month of October(month the referendum was held). This was the only time in Canada's history that Quebec beat Ontario in terms of granting new citizenship. The year 1996 saw a drop of 39%
Didn't know about your fun fact. That's crazy. I'll wait till after Quebec gets independence to move :p

[slave2thewage]

"Counters in Glasgow are looking through ballot papers looking for 10 possible cases of electoral fraud"

Oh, Glesgae.

[Deepvoid]

Didn't know about your fun fact. That's crazy. I'll wait till after Quebec gets independence to move :p

It's even crazier when you know that 90% of immigrants voted "no".
If you ask, the "no" won by 54,288 votes. Total of 4,671,008 valid votes.

Anyways, this is a whole other discussion, let's come back to Scotland.
Looks like Orkney is leaning "no"

**First results in 5 minutes**

[slave2thewage]

Guardian is saying that Aberdeenshire is a No. Bit embarrassing for Salmond.

EDIT - First result:

Clackmannanshire - No 53.8%, yes on 46.2%

[Deepvoid]

Clackmannanshire official results: 53.8% no; 46.2% yes

[miss k bee]

a little light relief


http://youtu.be/JUBNu8DbYu8

[Deepvoid]

Things aren't looking good for the "yes" camp.
It appears that both Dundee and Glasgow are having low turnouts.

"Yes" is also apparently conceding West Lothian.

[bgalbraith]

Glasgow reported 75% turnout, which, for Glasgow, is a massive turnout. It's all relative.

[slave2thewage]

Dundee is apparently 78% turnout, too.

Also, Orkney - No 67.2%, yes 32.8%.

[DF118]

Glasgow reported 75% turnout, which, for Glasgow, is a massive turnout. It's all relative.

Don't worry, they'll all kick the fuck out each other on the way home from the polling booth.

[slave2thewage]

Now I'm craving teacakes and Irn Bru.

EDIT: Shetland - No 63.7%, yes 36.3%

[Deepvoid]

"Lib Dem MP Sir Menzies Campbell tells the BBC: "It's not for the Scots to tell the English what form their devolution should take. That is for the English to decide."

Anyone who thinks Scotland will have more power as promised if the "no" wins, is a fool.

[slave2thewage]

That last result was a close one.

[DF118]

Dundee is a big win for the Yes. Biggest so far at 57%, and currently the only yes. Only 6000 votes in it for No...

Saying Yes or No is boring. From now Yes is Bampot and No is Numpty.

So Dundee is a big win for Bampot.

[Deepvoid]

West Dunbartonshire yes with 53.96%.
Midlothian: No with 56.3%
East Lothian: No with 61.7%
Sterling: No 60%
Falkirk: No 53.4%
Angus: No 56.3%

56,000 votes in for "no"

Appears that we have a trend...I'm going to bed.

[slave2thewage]

Well, guess it's a No. I can't see any big upsets happening now.

[scotty79]

I have to say I'm very disappointed at this

[WorzelG]

Apparently Scotland already have the power to vary their tax slightly but Holyrood have never used it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26630498

So considering they already have a different legal and educational system I can't see what else can be devolved to them?

[slave2thewage]

I think the biggest thing out of all of this is that over a million people voted to leave the UK. That's bound to have ramifications in the future.

[WorzelG]

My sister in law is relieved as she's Scottish living in London for the past 20 years so no vote obviously, and doesn't want to feel alienated from her home country

[icklekitty]

Does that mean we have to saw off Dundee and set it afloat across the North Sea?

[Swykk]

I'm not well versed in this at all, but I wonder why anyone wouldn't vote for independence.

[WorzelG]

I'm not well versed in this at all, but I wonder why anyone wouldn't vote for independence.
So if someone said you could vote for Indiana independence, from federal rule or whatever, would you?

[sentient02970]

And in the meantime, this question got asked. (http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four-americans-want-their-state-to-secede-from-the-u-s-but-why/)

[elevenism]

I think the biggest thing out of all of this is that over a million people voted to leave the UK. That's bound to have ramifications in the future.

that's what i was thinking.
This isn't over.

[Swykk]

So you're saying this is not unlike a state trying to secede? I'm being serious, I just want to understand what's happening.

[slave2thewage]

Does that mean we have to saw off Dundee and set it afloat across the North Sea?

You'll have to get rid of Glasgow as well. Could you live without Irn Bru?

[Deepvoid]

I don't know what to make of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBZi6HqDwcQ#t=23

[slave2thewage]

Salmond is stepping down, but that's not entirely unexpected.

[DF118]

Could you live without Irn Bru?

Don't be ridiculous.

(Actually... I have a supplier in NYC. If they get gentrified I'll kill myself.)

[scotty79]

I see the knuckle draggers are out in force in George square tonight

[Sutekh]

that's what i was thinking.
This isn't over.

It's been going on for years, there's a bad sectarian problem up there - There'll be trouble at the next old firm match in glasgow

[icklekitty]

You'll have to get rid of Glasgow as well. Could you live without Irn Bru?

Unequivocally yes.

[slave2thewage]

Rioting in central Glasgow right now. Gotta love those Rangers fans :/