The Smashing Pumpkins

[october_midnight]

All social channels, including the official site (https://smashingpumpkins.com) now have five countdown timers, which all end at exactly 12am EST on Aug 28, Sept 18, Oct 9, Oct 30, and Nov 20. Consequence of Sound thinks it's finally the long rumored new SP double album (https://consequenceofsound.net/2020/08/the-smashing-pumpkins-countdowns).

[sonic_discord]

Those are all Fridays and they're all three weeks apart. One of them HAS to be Shiny Vol. 2, but what else? Single? Music Video? Live streaming performances? Drive-in concerts like what Metallica is doing? Machina reissue?

[Shadaloo]

I'm guessing single, video, single, video, album

[armogi]

maybe it's coming out as 5 separate volumes and then the full record as the last one?

[sonic_discord]

I wonder if Billy changed his mind and is releasing it as two separate halves (Vol. 2 & 3) the way he initially envisioned it before deciding to make it a 20-track double album. Or maybe he finally recorded that Christmas album he mentioned a while back. Shadaloo is probably right with the single, video, single, video, album guess though.

[fillow]

I wonder if Billy changed his mind and is releasing it as two separate halves (Vol. 2 & 3) the way he initially envisioned it before deciding to make it a 20-track double album. Or maybe he finally recorded that Christmas album he mentioned a while back. @Shadaloo (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=685) is probably right with the single, video, single, video, album guess though.

I have a vague memory of Billy saying vol 3 is still a thing, even after vol 2 became a double record.

[sonic_discord]

I have a vague memory of Billy saying vol 3 is still a thing, even after vol 2 became a double record.

Yes, that has definitely been stated. But long before he began work on what's now known as "Vol. 3," he had briefly considered Vol. 2 to be both Vol. 2 and Vol. 3. Like before he decided to release them simultaneously as a 20-track double album. Make sense? Clear as mud, I know.

[Cookster426]

I'm really hoping one of those dates is the Machina Reissue reveal.

[neorev]

I don't think these dates have anything to do with Machina. It seems like Billy is still in the early stages of Machina.

[Shadaloo]

Yeah, it's too evenly structured. Every single date is 3 weeks apart on the nose, that's a pretty good indicator of a planned hype schedule and Billy's just shot a music video.

Billy seems to be tackling Machina in bits and pieces whenever he's not actively busy on his current stuff

I'd love to be wrong but...

[sonic_discord]

Looks like they've been signed to Sumerian Records and the first single drops this Friday.

CESWf7gDiaz

EDIT: Thanks for explaining how to embed, @neorev (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=584). Must be an issue with Firefox though because it doesn't display properly. It works fine in Chrome, though.

[neorev]

Looks like they've been signed to Sumerian Records and the first single drops this Friday.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CESWf7gDiaz/?igshid=1b63mpi9ueec3

(How do you embed Instagram posts?? Is that even possible?)

Yes, you use INSTAGRAM and /INSTAGRAM in brackets and the first set of letters and numbers between /p/ and /?igshid in the Insta link, which in this case is "CESWf7gDiaz"

CESWf7gDiaz

Not thrilled by this clip.

[rampface]

Sounds like more of the same. Oh well.

[sonic_discord]

Sounds like more of the same. Oh well.

It's a 10-second clip, hardly enough to judge from. Let's at least wait until the whole song comes out on Friday to write it off.

[rampface]

True but I've been listening to the Smashing Pumpkins since '95 so I already know what to expect just from a 10 second clip lol

[Shadaloo]

That sounds uncomfortably like something off Monuments to My Misery

[allegate]

Reminds me of that Henry Rollins bit about messing a song up and how he's "not a woah hey come on kind of guy" for some reason.

[neorev]

To go from making some of the edgiest, raw as hell, groundbreaking tones to this bland, artificial, overproduced, and overprocessed crap is, honestly, kind of disappointing. It may be just 10 seconds, but it's a terrible 10 seconds. Trust me, if there's anyone who wants Billy to make me eat my own words and prove me wrong, it's me. But I have little hope.

[Kodiak33]

They updated their website. Did anyone unscramble the riddle thing?

[neorev]

They updated their website. Did anyone unscramble the riddle thing?

Cyr
The colour of love part?

[Shadaloo]

Once you do, you get an email for a 20% off from the store :p

With another lyric puzzle:

“SAY, DIRE WARNING
STARE DOWN YOUR _MASTERS_
WITH THE PROMISE OF
ONE AND WHAT YOU ARE
WE'RE ON THE ______”

The Sumerian Records IG post had "Stare Down Your Masters" as a tag, so that's the first bit.

This is neat.

[implanted_microchip]

These new songs suck so much lol

[sonic_discord]

These new songs suck so much lol

Cyr is the better song between the two, but yeah... they're just okay. Every single song on Oceania is better than both of these. Here's hoping the singles are the more vanilla tunes and there are some bangers somewhere else in that 20-song tracklisting.

[Lerxto]

These two songs are shit. Who wouldn't have guessed though.
I'm wondering what Iha and Chamberlain are doing.
With Shiny 1 Billy had excuse that the songs were done before they came into play, but zero excuse here.

[bobbie solo]

These are fucking awful and Billy can continue to fuck right off. I understand making music that you want to make and not what your fans want, but who exactly could he possibly think this would appeal to that are in his current, actual fanbase? And the thing that really sticks out to me is that you've got this absolute monster of a drummer behind the kit for you, yet we're making ALOT of dance songs with programmed drum tracks? I understand there have always been some tracks like that (including his biggest hit in 1979), but this has been the focus since the reunion I feel like. No one wants that.

These songs can die in a fire.

[fillow]

Songs are fine to me. I mean this album is literally called Shiny Vol.2, why should anyone expect a drastic change?
I've accepted long time ago that old aggressive music ain't coming back and everyone should too.

[Lerxto]

Songs are fine to me. I mean this album is literally called Shiny Vol.2, why should anyone expect a drastic change?
I've accepted long time ago that old aggressive music ain't coming back and everyone should too.
Don't know, maybe them playing Porcelina and adding Machina songs & Zeitgeist tunes like GLOW, SuperChrist to the setlist made me hope for something better than this.
I feel like, even if SP was just Billy Corgan and boys from the beginning, he at least tried to make these records sound like an actual band recorded it, not just him.
Now he's not even trying.

[Kodiak33]

Awful.

[thefragile_jake]

Production is WAY too clean, glossy and lifeless for a band of this stature ... but I am actually am digging The Colour of Love. Really liking the arrangements, even if again—it could easily be any other band.

I thought Cyr was the worst of the two.

[rampface]

Billy is doing all he can to ruin the band’s legacy.

[imail724]

Billy is doing all he can to ruin the band’s legacy.That ship sailed about 5 albums ago.

[Shadaloo]

Cyr's your throwaway technopop single and I'm not impressed by it.

Color of Love's way better. Kinda feels like a nod to 80's Cure.

I'm remembering back on the spnexus site, when he was talking about Day For Night, he kind of implied he wanted that to be an 80's goth/new wave album. I guess we're here.

Honestly, their style changed on almost every album and I'd be more surprised if we ever get anything remotely similar to SD or MCIS ever again.

[imail724]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AN_GRWlU7k&feature=youtu.be

[rampface]

I’m all for artist’s trying new things and exploring but there’s nothing recognizable about the “Pumpkins” in either of these tracks. It’s almost as if Billy doesn’t want to be in the Smashing Pumpkins anymore but is sticking with the brand because he knows the money is there.

[allegate]

BBZ* stans are feeling left out right now.

(Bring Back Zwan)

[Soma]

I'm quite enjoying these new songs. Love the synthwork. Production sounds great. I don't think they will ever sound like they did in the 90's and that's fine with me.

[cahernandez]

No one is wanting them to sound like MCIS or SD or Adore, but hell, Oceania was a more than fine post-breakup album, I would actually rank Oceania in my top 3 SP (Zeitgeist had its moments too). This sounds uninspired and bland, I'm sorry. Color of Love is just ok, but again, doesn't have a hook, it's not catchy...it's just...generic?

[Shadaloo]

Don't get me wrong, he got the Gish guitar back and I wanna know what he did with it lol

But I feel like I've been through this already in 1998. And these don't feel so much like weird unfamiliar territory after the likes of TheFutureEmbrace and Monuments.

20 tracks, I would hope there are some rockers in there.

[neorev]

Not feeling these new tracks at all

[rampface]

Why is Billy so against writing guitar centric music lately? That’s where his talent is! I seriously doubt anyone listens to SP because they enjoy the vocals lol. And why the fuck would you bring Jimmy on, arguably one of the best drummers EVER, just to write songs that sound like a cheap drum machine pattern?!

[GulDukat]

I seem to be in the minority, but I really like these new songs a lot. They have kind of a Cure/New Wave/MTAE vibe.

[BrokenSpiral]

Cyr is not what I want from this band. But....... I don’t hate it?

[katara]

Lots of negativity here.

Pumpkins' first two albums had a 'sound' which had much to do with Butch Vig's involvement. Siamese Dream was released almost 30 years ago. There have been many line-ups and tumultuous times. In the river of time, things change. People change. The only rock in that river is Billy Corgan. Just like NIN is Trent Reznor, Smashing Pumpkins is WPC. Let's let the man move on from the past and write the songs he wants to write.

I do agree that the other band members just seem to be along for the ride. Still, weren't they always?

Definitely getting that 80s Cure flavour.

[neorev]

Lots of negativity here.

Pumpkins' first two albums had a 'sound' which had much to do with Butch Vig's involvement. Siamese Dream was released almost 30 years ago. There have been many line-ups and tumultuous times. In the river of time, things change. People change. The only rock in that river is Billy Corgan. Just like NIN is Trent Reznor, Smashing Pumpkins is WPC. Let's let the man move on from the past and write the songs he wants to write.

I do agree that the other band members just seem to be along for the ride. Still, weren't they always?

Definitely getting that 80s Cure flavour.

I'm not asking for another Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie, but just something with some edge and soul. This new stuff is just so frigging boring and bland and meandering. I think the fame and major success of their older albums ruined Billy. It just feels like he has nothing to say anymore. I can't tell if Billy actually likes the new music he's making or just trying to write what he thinks the masses would like. He's an amazing guitar player. So where are the melodies, riffs, leads? Chamberlain is one of the greatest drums. So where are his drums? These songs are lifeless. Stale production. His lyrics are so impersonal, like he's just writing some lyrics for the sake of having lyrics. Like an afterthought. At least with his earlier work, you got a look into his soul and emotions. There is no emotion in these new tracks. I don't feel they're saying anything unique. Their recent videos have been a cringefest too.

Look at Deftones, they can still knock out songs with emotion, edge, and soul. Hum put out a damn good album this year. Trent changes his sound, but it still has soul. You're still hearing from him.

I don't need a Siamese Dream 2 or a Mellon Collie 2, I just want a SP song that makes me feel something besides "Press skip."

[Lerxto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AN_GRWlU7k

Jimmy is dancing while playing a tambourine. James and Jeff are basically just standing there, strumming the guitar 3 times once in a while.
I wonder how they'll play this song live.

[BrokenSpiral]

Sorry, but a 50+ year old that’s had a lot of success is probably not feeling very edgy or angsty.

[sonic_discord]

I'm not asking for another Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie, but just something with some edge and soul. This new stuff is just so frigging boring and bland and meandering. I think the fame and major success of their older albums ruined Billy. It just feels like he has nothing to say anymore. I can't tell if Billy actually likes the new music he's making or just trying to write what he thinks the masses would like. He's an amazing guitar player. So where are the melodies, riffs, leads? Chamberlain is one of the greatest drums. So where are his drums? These songs are lifeless. Stale production. His lyrics are so impersonal, like he's just writing some lyrics for the sake of having lyrics. Like an afterthought. At least with his earlier work, you got a look into his soul and emotions. There is no emotion in these new tracks. I don't feel they're saying anything unique. Their recent videos have been a cringefest too.

If anything, I honestly think the internet and paying too much attention to what the fans and haters are saying are to blame and are what's eroded away the soul and personal lyrics. I think he's become too self-conscious and guarded to allow himself to reveal too much these days. I've listened to both songs a few more times and they're growing on me a little, but I was still hoping for something with a little more emotion and some soaring guitars (there are three guitarists, after all).

[Shadaloo]

Been saying it for ages, ever since around Oceania or so: Billy's number-one enemy is his own flowery prose. I don't think anybody knew Oceania was largely about a painful break-up until he said so. These songs would be much better served by some nice relatable lyrics.

As far as production goes...I'm going to a) wait until I have my own copy of the album so I'm not listening to crap-arse Youtube quality and b) hear the rest of the stuff in context. This already sounds better to my ears than whatever Rick Rubin was doing (or not doing). I do wish the guitars were higher in the mix...but on that note, vocals don't seem quite as up front as usual, so I'm kinda liking that.

[sonic_discord]

Been saying it for ages, ever since around Oceania or so: Billy's number-one enemy is his own flowery prose. I don't think anybody knew Oceania was largely about a painful break-up until he said so. These songs would be much better served by some nice relatable lyrics.

I personally don't mind the "flowery prose" when he does it in lyrics for a song, especially since he's consistently done that since the beginning. It's when he posts that kind of shit in an Instagram post that it comes off as impossibly pretentious and verbose. As far as Oceania being about a painful breakup, I think that's precisely why it was such a strong album – because it was about something meaningful. It had an intensely personal and emotional impetus for the songs and that emotion comes across in a way it hadn't since Machina (or maybe a few Zeitgeist b-sides and American Gothic).


As far as production goes...I'm going to a) wait until I have my own copy of the album so I'm not listening to crap-arse Youtube quality and b) hear the rest of the stuff in context. This already sounds better to my ears than whatever Rick Rubin was doing (or not doing). I do wish the guitars were higher in the mix...but on that note, vocals don't seem quite as up front as usual, so I'm kinda liking that.

I'm mostly in agreement with you here. I didn't hate Rubin's production on Shiny vol. 1, but these do sound better in that department. I agree the guitars should be a bit higher in the mix and I also think the backing vocals could be lowered a tad. Let's hope the next countdown ends with two more singles that are complete departures from this style and represent the polar opposite of what Shiny vol. 2 has to offer. With 20 tracks on it, there really needs to be some diversity among the songs.

[neorev]

Sorry, but a 50+ year old that’s had a lot of success is probably not feeling very edgy or angsty.

Chino is 47 and he has given us not just Deftones, but Team Sleep, Crosses, and Palms. It's not about edge or angst, it's about passion and emotion and spilling your soul out through your music. Billy lost a lot of that 20 years ago.

[rampface]

I'm not asking for another Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie, but just something with some edge and soul. This new stuff is just so frigging boring and bland and meandering. I think the fame and major success of their older albums ruined Billy. It just feels like he has nothing to say anymore. I can't tell if Billy actually likes the new music he's making or just trying to write what he thinks the masses would like. He's an amazing guitar player. So where are the melodies, riffs, leads? Chamberlain is one of the greatest drums. So where are his drums? These songs are lifeless. Stale production. His lyrics are so impersonal, like he's just writing some lyrics for the sake of having lyrics. Like an afterthought. At least with his earlier work, you got a look into his soul and emotions. There is no emotion in these new tracks. I don't feel they're saying anything unique. Their recent videos have been a cringefest too.

Look at Deftones, they can still knock out songs with emotion, edge, and soul. Hum put out a damn good album this year. Trent changes his sound, but it still has soul. You're still hearing from him.

I don't need a Siamese Dream 2 or a Mellon Collie 2, I just want a SP song that makes me feel something besides "Press skip."

ALL. OF. THIS.

Nothing is gained from these tracks. The lyrics don't connect, the music doesn't utilize the players strengths, the songwriting is painfully generic, etc.

[BrokenSpiral]

Chino sounds fucking awful. He’s doing the same sleepy screams he’s always done. Doesn’t make it more passionate.


it’s just an unfortunate reality. As these guys we grew up with age, with success, they lose that ‘edge’ or passion. But they still like to create. And, like it more not, people can write something amazing and then never be able to top it. A creative peak, if you will.

[Shadaloo]

Scene: Zoom band meeting

Billy: So Shiny volume 1 didn't leave much of a mark. Ideas?

Jimmy: *shrug* Your project, your call.

Billy: Eh. I did a Cars tribute album not too long ago. Let's do some synthpop?

James: Sure, whatever. Where's Jeff?

Billy: Off doing Night Dreamer.

Jimmy: Should we revisit any old sounds?

Billy: Nah, I'm sick of all of that. Let's do some New Order shit.

James: bUt WhAt aBoUt SoMa????

...

*All three burst into laughter*

FIN

[neorev]

Chino sounds fucking awful. He’s doing the same sleepy screams he’s always done. Doesn’t make it more passionate.


it’s just an unfortunate reality. As these guys we grew up with age, with success, they lose that ‘edge’ or passion. But they still like to create. And, like it more not, people can write something amazing and then never be able to top it. A creative peak, if you will.

Chino sounds way better and has more life in his voice than Billy can muster in the last 20 years. You're really gonna say Chino sounds awful when talking about Billy Corgan of today? Billy's vocal technique has only gotten worse with age. Deftones sound way more passionate than anything Billy has done in 20 years. The last time Billy had a hint of any passion was maybe Zeitgeist. Machina was the beginning of the end.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Washed up has been who has been irrelevant for 22 years releases yet another batch of shitty music. More news at 11

To the people comparing this to 80s Cure....That is an absolute insult of the highest order to the genius that is Robert Smith....Robert on his worst day in the middle of a 3 day booze and LSD bender would not come up with drivel this bad and embarrassing...

[Lerxto]

Washed up has been who has been irrelevant for 22 years releases yet another batch of shitty music. More news at 11

To the people comparing this to 80s Cure....That is an absolute insult of the highest order to the genius that is Robert Smith....Robert on his worst day in the middle of a 3 day booze and LSD bender would not come up with drivel this bad and embarrassing...
Cure and Depeche Mode. A lot of 90s rock bands need to realize they suck at synthpop.
Even if this album ages well, it would be the absolute nadir of SP.
Do they even realize why we listened to them in the first place?
It was because we were sick and tired of these shitty 80s pop songs that were a cheap copy of Joy Division/New Order, The Cure or Depeche Mode.

[neorev]

The problem is Billy never had a great voice to begin with. So once you lose that raw emotion he once had that translated through the music, it just ends up being a bland tune and Billy's grating voice singing some meaningless, flowery, pretentious, "poetic" nonsense. None of Billy's or the band's power that gripped you is there. And power doesn't mean heavy, but gripping and moving, like feeling was put into it. You are left with some generic meandering synth rock tune with Billy's nasally voice, which only gotten worse when he lost the emotion he once had chasing what he considers perfection. SP was never about amazing vocals, but the passion and emotion that came through. He tries too hard to sing "perfect" now instead of letting his emotions come through. He must think he sounds better now cuz he cranks his vocals to 11. Just like this overly produced sound he's been going for. Again, he has all this talent with the current band line up. Hearing these new songs, I have to ask where is the damn band?

Anyway, I have a new Deftones album and a new Deadsy album to look forward to, which both sound more promising.

[GulDukat]

Washed up has been who has been irrelevant for 22 years releases yet another batch of shitty music. More news at 11

To the people comparing this to 80s Cure....That is an absolute insult of the highest order to the genius that is Robert Smith....Robert on his worst day in the middle of a 3 day booze and LSD bender would not come up with drivel this bad and embarrassing...That's kind of what it sounds like to me, sorry.

Tough crowd.

I liked these two new songs. I have pretty much liked everything Billy has released. I didn't really care for the Teargarden EPs or the last one, but didn't hate them either. Some of the vitriol in this thread is a little over-the-top. Did Billy run over your puppy and make a stew with its corpse or something?

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

The Cure never did cheesy dance pop at their WORST. The closest they came was 'Lovecats' and 'The Walk' which Robert admitted was a joke when he wrote those and goofing on his whole goth vampire image that the media had of The Cure at the time. The scary thing is Billy boy is dead serious. This sounds like Erasure

[Shadaloo]

Washed up has been who has been irrelevant for 22 years releases yet another batch of shitty music. More news at 11

To the people comparing this to 80s Cure....That is an absolute insult of the highest order to the genius that is Robert Smith....Robert on his worst day in the middle of a 3 day booze and LSD bender would not come up with drivel this bad and embarrassing...


Look, I love the Cure and all, but that is exactly what most of Wild Mood Swings was.

I love how personal all the anger and disappointment in this thread is - can't help but feel like it's exactly what Billy wants.

Put on 'Anaise' off MTAE this morning. It's still worse.

[Shadaloo]

There's still 18 or so odd tracks to hear. My prediction is that people come away with the usual "One half of this would have made for a great album".

[r_z]

New songs sounding like Big Black Delta featuring Nosferatu on the vocals.

[GulDukat]

Yeah... I mean, the guy's 53 years old. Who knows how much longer he has left.

He's not 90 for god's sake.

[GulDukat]

I don't know man, The Rolling Stones have 25 years on Billy and they still tour.

[ManBurning]

I'm quite enjoying these new songs. Love the synthwork. Production sounds great. I don't think they will ever sound like they did in the 90's and that's fine with me.

I too very much enjoy these songs.
Not sure what's with all the hate.
These are the best songs I've heard from Billy and friends since... Zeitgeist.
I like this sound/direction.

[Lerxto]

https://youtu.be/Tf0rfivrUnQ
Much better this way, as usual.

[Shadaloo]

Not sure what's with all the hate.

It's reeeeal easy to disparage someone's work when you personally dislike the artist but have high expectations of 'em.

In other news, Cyr has over a million views on Youtube now and that's baffling even to me

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

1 million youtube views in less than a week. I mean reviews have been terrible everywhere. Needle drop Fantano listed the song on his "worst tracks" segment. I wonder how many views on YT are people who are just watching so they can see the flaming trainwreck that is Billy's career. Same way the Corey Feldman twerk performance on the Today show got 3 million views. In a way its fascinating to watch this guy firebomb whats left of his "legacy"...Billy really has become the Corey Feldman of music....Its so bad but you can't look away....Whats he gonna do next to alienate his audience? A faithful rendition of the Bee Gees disco hit 'Stayin Alive'? A faithful rendition of New Kids On The Block 'The Right Stuff'??? I wouldn't put it past him

[katara]

Cyr has over a million views on Youtube now and that's baffling even to me
The song is formulaic, not overly complicated.
Derivative of '80s synthpop which has been popular in the last few years.
Video's solarised filtering adds to that retro effect.
The 'millennial whoop' which repeats throughout is some kind of bizarre auditory drug that automatically prints money.

The whole presentation is easy to understand, easy on the ears, easy on the eyes. Most people don't want something they have to think about, they just want something to dance to, impress their friends with, or simply have on in the background as wallpaper music.

[Shadaloo]

1 million youtube views in less than a week. I mean reviews have been terrible everywhere. Needle drop Fantano listed the song on his "worst tracks" segment. I wonder how many views on YT are people who are just watching so they can see the flaming trainwreck that is Billy's career. Same way the Corey Feldman twerk performance on the Today show got 3 million views. In a way its fascinating to watch this guy firebomb whats left of his "legacy"...Billy really has become the Corey Feldman of music....Its so bad but you can't look away....Whats he gonna do next to alienate his audience? A faithful rendition of the Bee Gees disco hit 'Stayin Alive'? A faithful rendition of New Kids On The Block 'The Right Stuff'??? I wouldn't put it past him

I get where you're coming from, but man, sometimes I think you need a hug

[Shadaloo]

And as for ruining legacies, all I gotta say is, well...nobody remembers KISS for The Elder. I feel like the only people Bill's legacy is ruined for are music critics. There's enough fans out there that shrug off or forget the underwhelming stuff.

And I'm sorry, but nobody wandering the streets without a big ol' lumberjack beard and pencil moustache lugging a keg of craft beer knows who the fuck Fantano is. Maybe an exaggeration, but shit - not everyone pays attention to music critics. I stopped after an incident in which I personally witnessed 48.9 metric tons of diarrhea spew from Robert Christgau's mouth. They had to call in the national guard. Crashed cars everywhere. Three dead, 34 on the ground. It was awful :(

(Also Billy covered Bee Gees already on FutureEmbrace: To Love Somebody)

[henryeatscereal]

Cyr is actually "Ok", but yes, this sounds more like a solo song than a band effort, still SP is Billy's band in the end...
I don't hate it, but i'm not aching for the new album.

[GulDukat]

...nobody remembers KISS for The Elder.


I love The Elder, even though Gene himself called it a "bad Genesis album."

[ManBurning]

It's reeeeal easy to disparage someone's work when you personally dislike the artist but have high expectations of 'em.


Could be why I actually really enjoy these tracks. I gave up on Billy a long time ago, and my expectations of him at this point are next to nothing.
So, these really exceeded my expectations.

[Prettybrokenspiral]

It's reeeeal easy to disparage someone's work when you personally dislike the artist but have high expectations of 'em.

That's pretty much everyone over in the Manson thread, fwiw..

I'm not so much keen to hear these new songs as I am to read Neorev ripping the album to shreds once he finally hears it, lmao..

[neorev]

That's pretty much everyone over in the Manson thread, fwiw..

I'm not so much keen to hear these new songs as I am to read Neorev ripping the album to shreds once he finally hears it, lmao..

I will just for you. As long as I don't have to pay for the piece of shit. ;)

[GulDukat]

I'm actually pretty excited to hear the new album--can't wait until it comes out. Billy's catalog is actually very strong, as strong as virtually any artist with a 30 year career.

[Findus]

There's something about Cyr that reminds me of Republic-era New Order. I just did a search, and found a result for a 2001 Billboard article that talks about Billy joining New Order as a traveling guitarist for select dates. A longtime fan, Billy is featured on the New Order song Turn My Way, from their album NEWORDERGETREADY.
Now that I listen to the track again (after many years), I recall Billy's contribution, but did not know he played live with them.

[DVYDRNS]

I like this new Dua Lipa song.

Oh wait.

[Disassociative]

It's not bad but not really what I wanted or expected. Seems more like something that could have come from solo TheFutureEmbrace Billy versus a mostly reunited SP.

[elevenism]

I don't dislike Corgan, but JESUS GOD, the new song I heard really is THAT bad.

Maybe it isn't that it's so objectively bad, and just like, an extremely jarring change in direction?

Whatever the case, I damn sure don't wanna hear it again.

[Lerxto]

Billy's catalog is actually very strong, as strong as virtually any artist with a 30 year career.
Trent's discography is what you call "very strong". Billy has many duds.

For example: Zwan, where unreleased tracks are much better than released ones.
Half-assed Teargarden project, Monuments (namely Run2Me), etc.
Machina, Zeitgeist, good songs fucked up by bad production.
I won't even mention the embarrassment that is AEGEA and the Siddhartha box that never sold out (and never will in a sane world).

And there's this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C6YB3gGoUs

Ever heard of this guy called Steven Wilson? That guy's discography is "strong".
XTC. Kate Bush. Arguably Frank Zappa & King Crimson.
Billy? Not even close.

[Lerxto]

1 million youtube views in less than a week. I mean reviews have been terrible everywhere. Needle drop Fantano listed the song on his "worst tracks" segment. I wonder how many views on YT are people who are just watching so they can see the flaming trainwreck that is Billy's career. Same way the Corey Feldman twerk performance on the Today show got 3 million views. In a way its fascinating to watch this guy firebomb whats left of his "legacy"...Billy really has become the Corey Feldman of music....Its so bad but you can't look away....Whats he gonna do next to alienate his audience? A faithful rendition of the Bee Gees disco hit 'Stayin Alive'? A faithful rendition of New Kids On The Block 'The Right Stuff'??? I wouldn't put it past him
Exhibit B @ 2.8M views:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEPI69cx22E

[neorev]

Adore was the last Smashing Pumpkins record. I never understood the hate for it.

Machina was the beginning of Billy trying way too hard and failing.

[fillow]

I guess three or four persistent haters can convince anyone of anything. Relax guys, we get it, Billy let you down.

[Einzige]

Adore was the last Smashing Pumpkins record. I never understood the hate for it.

Machina was the beginning of Billy trying way too hard and failing.

Adore rules. Machina I rules. Machina II is almost unlistenable.

[r_z]

At least they seem to have fun with this. Billy even bringing back his Adore look for the video seems like a message. Like... "Look, you want the doom and gloom version of us, while we're out there having a good time doing what we want. Get over it."

[neorev]

Adore is a great album. Problem is, it's so against the zeitgeist of what was happening in the scene at the time and so far removed from their previous output.

Think about what was going on outside the Pumpkins. Korn and Limp Bizkit were paving the way for Nu Metal. Manson was about to release Mechanical Animals.

Then you have Billy with his banjo and drum machine.

Trip-hop was also in its prime, merging dubby bass with electronic beats. Adore takes the electronic route too, except the songs aren't chill or easy to listen to, they're mostly dreary, serious dirges. Too 'real' for the masses. Not exactly radio-worthy material.

I think if Adore had been scrapped in favour of something more like Hole's Celebrity Skin (also released the same year, with Corgan co-writing almost half the album), it would have performed much better. It may have also been regarded as a sell-out album, but at least it would have kept them in the public eye. This seems to be what Billy attempted with Machina, and the results show (#3 on US Billboard as opposed to #86 for Adore).

Adore is an album that has very little in the way of instant gratification. It needs time to appreciate. I really do like it a lot, although I do need to be in the right mood for it.

I loved Adore instantly on first listen. I remember picking it up on release day. I feel it picks up right where Mellon Collie left off. Not a fan of Celebrity Skin whatsoever. If that was the Pumpkins next album, I would have to retract my previous statement and then say Mellon Collie was the last great Pumpkins record. I love Adore... def more than Gish. I probably listen to it more than Siamese Dream.

[rampface]

I was 13 when Adore was released. At that point, I had been listening to the Pumpkins for 3 years. The "heavier" stuff is what I gravitated towards but I could appreciate songs like Thirty Three and Cupid. Adore was a mixed bag for me. It seemed all over the place. You also have to remember the lead up to Adore and the post-Melon Collie hype phase of the band's career was Eye, The End is the Beginning is the End, and they released Ava Adore as the first single despite it not being indicative sonically for the rest of the record. I was expecting dark heavy rock with moody electronics (like the Pumpkin's version of Bowie's Earthlings which came out the year before) and we got something far more understated and personal without all the angst. It's a grower. My only complaint is it would have been better with a edit to the tracklist. Billy has always been the worst editor. It does deserve credit for being released before Kid A starting the "rock band ditches their guitars for synthesizers" era of music.

[Shadaloo]

Yeah, Adore was a bit out of left field. Eye was the most representative of what was to come and I think most people were hoping for more along the lines of TEITBITE. I was, and I admit to being let down at first...it took me a few years to really appreciate it.

Posting this here because it is one of my absolute favorite things ever recorded.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpHEio0ib88

Billy can put out all the new wave dance albums he wants; I'll take them as they come and even though they won't be what I'm hoping for, nothing will ever tarnish the original run for me. Nothing.

[neorev]

I was 13 when Adore was released. At that point, I had been listening to the Pumpkins for 3 years. The "heavier" stuff is what I gravitated towards but I could appreciate songs like Thirty Three and Cupid. Adore was a mixed bag for me. It seemed all over the place. You also have to remember the lead up to Adore and the post-Melon Collie hype phase of the band's career was Eye, The End is the Beginning is the End, and they released Ava Adore as the first single despite it not being indicative sonically for the rest of the record. I was expecting dark heavy rock with moody electronics (like the Pumpkin's version of Bowie's Earthlings which came out the year before) and we got something far more understated and personal without all the angst. It's a grower. My only complaint is it would have been better with a edit to the tracklist. Billy has always been the worst editor. It does deserve credit for being released before Kid A starting the "rock band ditches their guitars for synthesizers" era of music.

I have my own preferable Adore playlist.
Even made my own cover editing art from an Adore era t-shirt cuz I'm lame like that. (I like to make art for bootleg live recordings.)

https://i.imgur.com/5MYjfMa.jpg

01 Ava Adore
02 Eye
03 Perfect
04 Daphne Descends
05 Saturnine
06 Tear
07 Crestfallen
08 To Sheila
09 Waiting
10 Appels + Oranjes
11 Pug
12 Shame
13 Behold! The Night Mare
14 For Martha
15 Blank Page
16 Blissed And Gone
17 17

Think it helps give it a little more edge. Oh, look, it's now actually 17 tracks... and track 17 is 17! How cheeky.
The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning is a great track, but feels out of place both lyrically and sonically.

[Failure]

I think if Adore had been scrapped in favour of something more like Hole's Celebrity Skin (also released the same year, with Corgan co-writing almost half the album), it would have performed much better. It may have also been regarded as a sell-out album, but at least it would have kept them in the public eye. This seems to be what Billy attempted with Machina, and the results show (#3 on US Billboard as opposed to #86 for Adore).


Adore debuted at #2 on the Billboard 200 and sold 174k units in it’s first week. Overall, it sold double what Machina did (platinum vs. gold). Billy was still very much in the public eye in 1998 (also because of Mechanical Animals and Celebrity Skin). I remember MTV.COM (which was somewhat indicative of the cultural zeitgeist back then) did a “Corgan is unstoppable” cover page story. Granted the sales were nothing compared to prior albums, but the ballsiness of him to release a moody little electronic album off the heels of the eighth biggest selling double album of all-time was not lost on people who were paying attention to anything beyond TRL.

I don’t disagree with your sentiments though. It would have been a fascinating alternative trajectory if Billy had taken fucking Malibu and Dope Show for himself and went pop/mainstream.

[sonic_discord]

I have my own preferable Adore playlist.

01 Ava Adore
02 Eye
03 Perfect
04 Daphne Descends
05 Saturnine
06 Tear
07 Crestfallen
08 To Sheila
09 Waiting
10 Appels + Oranjes
11 Pug
12 Shame
13 Behold! The Night Mare
14 For Martha
15 Blank Page
16 Blissed And Gone
17 17


I love that you added Eye and Saturnine (both are favorites of mine). Waiting and Blissed and Gone also fit in extremely well, but how could you take off The Tale of Dusty and Pistol Pete and Once Upon a Time?? Sparrow would be a nice addition, too.

[sonic_discord]

It would have been a fascinating alternative trajectory if Billy had taken fucking Malibu and Dope Show for himself and went pop/mainstream.

I knew that Billy co-wrote much of Celebrity Skin, but I was under the impression he was only involved with Mechanical Animals in an "advisor" or "music consultant" role. Wikipedia credits Twiggy/Jeordie White with writing The Dope Show. Was it stated somewhere that Billy co-wrote The Dope Show and/or any other songs on Mechanical Animals? If so, that's news to me.

[allegate]

Yeah, Adore was a bit out of left field. Eye was the most representative of what was to come and I think most people were hoping for more along the lines of TEITBITE. I was, and I admit to being let down at first...it took me a few years to really appreciate it.

Posting this here because it is one of my absolute favorite things ever recorded.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpHEio0ib88

Billy can put out all the new wave dance albums he wants; I'll take them as they come and even though they won't be what I'm hoping for, nothing will ever tarnish the original run for me. Nothing.
I only knew about the remix ep - what a waste of $$$ to import that thing - so I'm going to have to find this other single. thanks.

[neorev]

I love that you added Eye and Saturnine (both are favorites of mine). Waiting and Blissed and Gone also fit in extremely well, but how could you take off The Tale of Dusty and Pistol Pete and Once Upon a Time?? Sparrow would be a nice addition, too.

That'd be a 20 track album! What do you think this is? Shiny Vol. 2? :p

[kas23]

Billy didn’t write Dope Show or anything on MA. From what I read at the time, and there was a great RS article on the subject back then, he was merely a cheerleader. It sounded like MM was hesitant to go in such a dramatic direction and he basically said “go with it and then go further”. That said, you can definitely hear Pumpkins influences on MA, such as in Speed of Pain.

[Shadaloo]

Manson's friend, The Smashing Pumpkins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Smashing_Pumpkins) frontman Billy Corgan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Corgan), served as an unofficial music consultant for the band.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Animals#cite_note-MMNewHappyFace-9) After playing a few of the early songs for him, Corgan advised that "This is definitely the right direction" but to "go all the way with it. Don't hint at it."[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Animals#cite_note-MMNewHappyFace-9) Despite this, almost 20 years after the release of Mechanical Animals, keyboardist Madonna Wayne Gacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_Wayne_Gacy) (who left the band in the intervening years) disputed "arrogant-yet-whiny ass" Corgan's involvement and claimed "the majority" of the album was "written long before Billy Corgan ever showed up." He went on to describe Corgan as pretentious and "thinks he's Brian Eno (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Eno)."[13]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_Animals#cite_note-13)
:p

[Jon]

I only knew about the remix ep - what a waste of $$$ to import that thing - so I'm going to have to find this other single. thanks.

???

You can get either of those singles for under a dollar and then $2-$4 shipping.

[allegate]

Now? Sure. That's about what they're worth. In 1997 when import CDs were a new and weird thing to me and had to be ordered from CDnow? It was expensive.

[Jon]

Now? Sure. That's about what they're worth. In 1997 when import CDs were a new and weird thing to me and had to be ordered from CDnow? It was expensive.

$17.99 from Sam Goody :p

[allegate]

I'm trying to remember...in 1997 I was in Manhattan KS and there was nothing nearby. Well, a Wal-Mart and a PX but that was it. Hell, the closest Best Buy was in Topeka! the internet was such a weird place to be able to buy things from but man it helped so much then.

[Failure]

I knew that Billy co-wrote much of Celebrity Skin, but I was under the impression he was only involved with Mechanical Animals in an "advisor" or "music consultant" role. Wikipedia credits Twiggy/Jeordie White with writing The Dope Show. Was it stated somewhere that Billy co-wrote The Dope Show and/or any other songs on Mechanical Animals? If so, that's news to me.

Nah, he didn’t get any songwriting credits. I was just making the point that he was “around” a lot of amazing stuff during the 97-99 timeframe. Manson owed him one anyway after all that Charlie Brown shit in the Long Hard Road book..

[sonic_discord]

I remember making a 7-mile (14 miles round trip) bike ride to my hometown's Walmart to buy Adore the day it came out (We didn't even have a Target yet in those days). Pretty sure I picked up Mechanical Animals at a Best Buy in Fargo, but I didn't buy it on release day. I kinda miss those days sometimes where you had to actually go find the album at a store. It's definitely nice to get the music immediately via streaming platforms at 11pm or midnight the night before and having the physical version shipped to your door. There was something exciting about making a morning trek to a record store or retail store and seeing other fans picking it up that was exciting in a different way.

[allegate]

and the midnight release parties, I went to one for an album and then got married the next day on like four hours of sleep.

[kas23]

Oops. I put this in the MM thread by accident. Here’s that old RS article, back when Manson was sober or smarter or whatever:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...y-face-106304/ (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/marilyn-mansons-new-happy-face-106304/)

[r_z]

Watching the Atlanta show from 1998 right now. It's pretty great. Those Adore songs really get a new life with Chamberlain replacing the drum machines, though why he is dressed like a raver at the Loveparade remains a mystery to me. Also, Garson on piano is a great addition.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMo1tDagGjY

[seasonsinthesky]

Those Adore songs really get a new life with Chamberlain replacing the drum machines, though why he is dressed like a raver at the Loveparade remains a mystery to me.

Assume that's a joke, but just in case it isn't, or someone else in the thread isn't aware – that ain't Jimmy!

[r_z]

Oh, I did not know that! Is it Dr. Motte after all?

[sonic_discord]

Watching the Atlanta show from 1998 right now. It's pretty great. Those Adore songs really get a new life with Chamberlain replacing the drum machines, though why he is dressed like a raver at the Loveparade remains a mystery to me. Also, Garson on piano is a great addition.


Assume that's a joke, but just in case it isn't, or someone else in the thread isn't aware – that ain't Jimmy!

Yeah, that's Kenny Aronoff. He was their touring drummer in 1998.

[fillow]

Yeah, that's Kenny Aronoff. He was their touring drummer in 1998.
Yeah, he joined Smashing Pumpkins tour right after finishing Tour de France, not even taking off his cycling gear. /jk

[_incoma_]

I'll toss my Adore story into the mix. Like many others, I was anticipating something along the lines of Eye, Love and the batman stuff, mostly due to radio djs. In fact, one here in Houston said it was going to be a double album first disc acoustic, the second electronic. I guess in hindsight he at least got the vibe right. Anyway, i was totally there day one at my local hastings to pick it up and almost fainted when it was on my hands. Here i am, twelve years old and my first time ever doing a day one purchase for one of my two favorite bands, the other being NIN. I collect myself and see that Pisces Iscariot is there too and i snag it as well. When i leave the store, i put on my headphone, toss in Adore into my discman and smell the newsness of the booklet. Immediately I'm like, "umm..this is hella mellow", also it was crazy hot that day and this jazz sounds like music for sunset with a cool breeze. Knowing then was not the time, i swap it out with PI and immediately am like "fuck yes!". My mind is blown, just like with Mellon Collie and Siamese Dream. Despite it being just a collection of b-sides, to me it totally comes across as transition period album. Anyway, Adore became a crossroads album for myself and my friends musical journeys. Where they moved on to either heavier stuff or more commerical pop rock stuff, i stuck it out with the pumpkins. Same story with NIN, later when TF arrived. Adore became a staple that summer, it's lushness was undeniable and despite it's lack of punishing riffs, there was enough emotional weight, that it had it's own intensity.

Sorry for the long first post in like two years. Haha

Also, the new songs definitely have my excited for the new record, between what we know the original three can bring to the mix, I'm hoping jeff influence brings over some of those Night Dreamer vibes. Totally digging that band.

[Shadaloo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiK4JmeXYAAfirp?format=jpg&name=small

Album title is...CYR (https://twitter.com/SmashingPumpkin/status/1306809630597812224/photo/1)

01 “The Colour Of Love”
02 “Confessions Of A Dopamine Addict”
03 “Cyr”
04 “Dulcet In E”
05 “Wrath”
06 “Ramona”
07 “Anno Satana”
08 “Birch Grove”
09 “Wyttch”
10 “Starrcraft”
11 “Purple Blood”
12 “Save Your Tears”
13 “Telegenix”
14 “Black Forest, Black Hills”
15 “Adrennalynne”
16 “Haunted”
17 “The Hidden Sun”
18 “Schaudenfreud”
19 “Tyger, Tyger”
20 “Minerva”

[sonic_discord]

I'm pretty surprised the title isn't "Shiny and Oh So Bright: Vol. 2/LP - Cyr: On the Verge" or something way too long. And what's with intentionally misspelling half a dozen of the song titles? That shit drives me crazy...

[Piko]

I didn't believe these were real at first...

[Shadaloo]

He's been misspelling shit since Siva, Window Paine. Hell, "Psychodelic" off the Moon demo tape even.

I ain't about to defend that cover art though. I mean, I'm kinda glad it keeps visual consistency with the first volume, but at the same time it reminds me of

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/1c/03/b01c03afe92224bd12b241c01fab2047.png

[sonic_discord]

Is it bad if I kinda like the cover? I like the Art Deco style. I certainly think it's better than the "facepalm" cover for Vol. 1.
I still think the best artwork of this era was the tour poster (which in my opinion should have been used for the cover of Vol. 1):
https://www.nowplayingnashville.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/www.nowplayingnashville.com/images/2018/02/SMASHINGPUMPKINS.jpg

[neorev]

He's been misspelling shit since Siva, Window Paine. Hell, "Psychodelic" off the Moon demo tape even.

I ain't about to defend that cover art though. I mean, I'm kinda glad it keeps visual consistency with the first volume, but at the same time it reminds me of

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b0/1c/03/b01c03afe92224bd12b241c01fab2047.png

Hey! My Netphoria avatar lol

[neorev]

Song titles sound pretentious as all hell. Then again, Billy is pretty damn pretentious.
Artwork has been pretty ugly during this era. This cover is no different.

Imagine Minerva is a Deftones cover

Wait...
Apple has it listed as 37 minutes? Please tell me that's wrong. How is a 20 track double album 37 minutes?
A bunch of short filler interludes shoved in between songs?
A double album that's barely the length of a single album?

[Shadaloo]

There are no track times for half the tracks. Conversely, most of those that are there don't hit the 4 minute mark so I'm kinda getting Monuments vibes.

Also neorev I'm sorry but Fetus Billy is to my mind the single most unsettling thing he's even given or let loose upon the world and it makes me uncomfortable :(

[neorev]

Also @neorev (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=584) I'm sorry but Fetus Billy is to my mind the single most unsettling thing he's even given or let loose upon the world and it makes me uncomfortable :(

It is... and why it will remain my Netphoria avatar :)

[Disassociative]

So much for multiple Shiny And Oh So Bright volumes

[bobbie solo]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2be04ca1c5b65c89d66477585935ba3b/tenor.gif

[Cookster426]

Song titles sound pretentious as all hell. Then again, Billy is pretty damn pretentious.
Artwork has been pretty ugly during this era. This cover is no different.

Imagine Minerva is a Deftones cover

Wait...
Apple has it listed as 37 minutes? Please tell me that's wrong. How is a 20 track double album 37 minutes?
A bunch of short filler interludes shoved in between songs?
A double album that's barely the length of a single album?


Not all the songs listed have times on them.

[Erneuert]

I'm pretty surprised the title isn't "Shiny and Oh So Bright: Vol. 2/LP - Cyr: On the Verge" or something way too long. And what's with intentionally misspelling half a dozen of the song titles? That shit drives me crazy...

I hate that shit too.

[GulDukat]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiK4JmeXYAAfirp?format=jpg&name=small

Album title is...CYR (https://twitter.com/SmashingPumpkin/status/1306809630597812224/photo/1)

01 “The Colour Of Love”
02 “Confessions Of A Dopamine Addict”
03 “Cyr”
04 “Dulcet In E”
05 “Wrath”
06 “Ramona”
07 “Anno Satana”
08 “Birch Grove”
09 “Wyttch”
10 “Starrcraft”
11 “Purple Blood”
12 “Save Your Tears”
13 “Telegenix”
14 “Black Forest, Black Hills”
15 “Adrennalynne”
16 “Haunted”
17 “The Hidden Sun”
18 “Schaudenfreud”
19 “Tyger, Tyger”
20 “Minerva”

I love the cover. Reminds me of Metropolis. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(1927_film))

Going to pre-order this as soon as its available.

[WorzelG]

I'm pretty surprised the title isn't "Shiny and Oh So Bright: Vol. 2/LP - Cyr: On the Verge" or something way too long. And what's with intentionally misspelling half a dozen of the song titles? That shit drives me crazy...
Shiny and oh so bright is one of the worst and most naff album names I’ve ever heard. How can changing it be a bad thing?

[sonic_discord]

Shiny and oh so bright is one of the worst and most naff album names I’ve ever heard. How can changing it be a bad thing?

I didn't say it was a bad thing. I just said I was surprised it wasn't insanely long like its predecessor. I agree that a shorter album name is better and a good thing.

[WorzelG]

I didn't say it was a bad thing. I just said I was surprised it wasn't insanely long like its predecessor. I agree that a shorter album name is better and a good thing.
totally misconstrued where you were coming from - sorry

[Jon]

I'm pretty surprised the title isn't "Shiny and Oh So Bright: Vol. 2/LP - Cyr: On the Verge" or something way too long. And what's with intentionally misspelling half a dozen of the song titles? That shit drives me crazy...

y yis thys annyoing?

[neorev]

CFSCx2yDLGv

This album is not sounding promising

[ZeroSum]

Shiny and oh so bright is one of the worst and most naff album names I’ve ever heard. How can changing it be a bad thing?

While I agree that Shiny and oh so Bright was a terrible album name, I do kind of feel some resentment toward the change. When looking over the Pumpkin's back catalog in the future, "Shiny" is going to stick out as even more of an awkward title than it already was- Let's not forget that the full name was "SHINY AND OH SO BRIGHT, VOL 1. LP: NO FUTURE. NO PAST. NO SUN." Why did they feel the need to attach "Volume 1" to it if there wasn't going to be a volume 2? I could see it being interesting if they built some sort of trend of longer, more epic albums (like 'Cyr' seems to be going for) and then releasing shorter, more conceptually scattered "Shiny" albums in between. But, I'm certainly not counting on anything like that happening, and would be shocked if that were the case. My guess is we'll just never see the Shiny concept returned to again...

Which brings me to the next point: it was not an interesting concept of an album, and didn't really function 'conceptually' at all. It was super short and stylistically inconsistent. It felt very much like the band in the studio, testing out a couple different approaches- oh, here's the song that throws back to 1979, here's a hard rocker or two, here's one with slow dreamy guitars and here's some machina-style weirdness - just to get a sort of test run under their belt, and to have something to go along with the big tour they did. The grandly ambitious and willfully pretentious conceptualization of the music really worked for Billy in the 90s, because there was just enough genuine yearning inside the music to make their often absurd boundary pushing something more compelling and palatable to a mass audience. Mellon Collie is a fucking ridiculous album, but it's also fucking brilliant because it seems so fully committed to its absurdities. Now? It feels like a hollow simulation of that same grandness. The Shiny album would have worked better if it was rolled out with little fanfare: We were jamming around in the studio and remembered why we love making music; we don't have much usable material yet and the art direction is gonna be minimalistic, but we like what we're doing and we wanna share it with you to let you know we're all back; Here's a short, simple album called "The Smashing Pumpkins."

I guarantee you if something like that happened, the reception of Shiny would have been stronger among die-hard fans. But we're all so aware of and jaded from Billy's bullshit that we see through the artificial crap immediately, and there's already heaps of pretentious crap to make fun of before the album is even out.

The entire discography since the original reunion has been completely slapdash. Zeitgeist has a billion different versions, but no complete one; worse, the best tracks are the ones that are hardest to find. Teargarden was supposed to be this grand, sweeping thing, 64 songs churned out prolifically over the course of two years, but instead we got 2.5 ep's of mostly subpar, stylistically jumbled material over two years. Then, Oceania was supposed to be the "album within the album" kind of bullshit, but that was just an excuse to keep Billy from admitting he was abandoning the whole teargarden concept. Followed by that, there's Monuments, which... when I thought of it as one half of a two album series, I thought it'd be decent, with its weaknesses perhaps being addressed by strengths in the second album, but now it is just this.... shallow, slight album that mostly does nothing for me and can't stack up to anything else in the discography; it's completely half-baked. And now this abandoning of the Shiny "concept" is just another in this series of gaffes. Everything about this band has failed to cohere in any compelling way, even though it goes through the motions of trying to sound grand and ambitious. To make matters worse, it looks like this art direction is quite similar to the direction for Shiny. So they will always feel like they belong to the same era of music, even if the names will say otherwise. Ugh.

The music is also not great, for the most part. But man, it'd probably feel a little better if there was any sort of narrative we could latch onto as fans.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by NIN's hyper-organized halo numbering thing making it so easy to understand the history of the band...

[WorzelG]

While I agree that Shiny and oh so Bright was a terrible album name, I do kind of feel some resentment toward the change. When looking over the Pumpkin's back catalog in the future, "Shiny" is going to stick out as even more of an awkward title than it already was- Let's not forget that the full name was "SHINY AND OH SO BRIGHT, VOL 1. LP: NO FUTURE. NO PAST. NO SUN." Why did they feel the need to attach "Volume 1" to it if there wasn't going to be a volume 2? I could see it being interesting if they built some sort of trend of longer, more epic albums (like 'Cyr' seems to be going for) and then releasing shorter, more conceptually scattered "Shiny" albums in between. But, I'm certainly not counting on anything like that happening, and would be shocked if that were the case. My guess is we'll just never see the Shiny concept returned to again...

Which brings me to the next point: it was not an interesting concept of an album, and didn't really function 'conceptually' at all. It was super short and stylistically inconsistent. It felt very much like the band in the studio, testing out a couple different approaches- oh, here's the song that throws back to 1979, here's a hard rocker or two, here's one with slow dreamy guitars and here's some machina-style weirdness - just to get a sort of test run under their belt, and to have something to go along with the big tour they did. The grandly ambitious and willfully pretentious conceptualization of the music really worked for Billy in the 90s, because there was just enough genuine yearning inside the music to make their often absurd boundary pushing something more compelling and palatable to a mass audience. Mellon Collie is a fucking ridiculous album, but it's also fucking brilliant because it seems so fully committed to its absurdities. Now? It feels like a hollow simulation of that same grandness. The Shiny album would have worked better if it was rolled out with little fanfare: We were jamming around in the studio and remembered why we love making music; we don't have much usable material yet and the art direction is gonna be minimalistic, but we like what we're doing and we wanna share it with you to let you know we're all back; Here's a short, simple album called "The Smashing Pumpkins."

I guarantee you if something like that happened, the reception of Shiny would have been stronger among die-hard fans. But we're all so aware of and jaded from Billy's bullshit that we see through the artificial crap immediately, and there's already heaps of pretentious crap to make fun of before the album is even out.

The entire discography since the original reunion has been completely slapdash. Zeitgeist has a billion different versions, but no complete one; worse, the best tracks are the ones that are hardest to find. Teargarden was supposed to be this grand, sweeping thing, 64 songs churned out prolifically over the course of two years, but instead we got 2.5 ep's of mostly subpar, stylistically jumbled material over two years. Then, Oceania was supposed to be the "album within the album" kind of bullshit, but that was just an excuse to keep Billy from admitting he was abandoning the whole teargarden concept. Followed by that, there's Monuments, which... when I thought of it as one half of a two album series, I thought it'd be decent, with its weaknesses perhaps being addressed by strengths in the second album, but now it is just this.... shallow, slight album that mostly does nothing for me and can't stack up to anything else in the discography; it's completely half-baked. And now this abandoning of the Shiny "concept" is just another in this series of gaffes. Everything about this band has failed to cohere in any compelling way, even though it goes through the motions of trying to sound grand and ambitious. To make matters worse, it looks like this art direction is quite similar to the direction for Shiny. So they will always feel like they go together, even if the names will say otherwise. Ugh.

The music is also not great, for the most part. But man, it'd probably feel a little better if there was any sort of narrative we could latch onto as fans.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by NIN's hyper-organized halo numbering thing making it so easy to understand the history of the band...
NIN do have Deviations 1 - is that supposed to lead into anything? Ha ha,. I think the siddhartha thing is definitely the most ludicrous thing from Billy Corgan, But it wasn’t in the bands name

[rampface]

You hit the nail on the head!

[WorzelG]

Why didn’t they just call it No Past No Future No Sun, it’s quite a cool name, like the heat death of the Universe

[ZeroSum]

Why didn’t they just call it No Past No Future No Sun, it’s quite a cool name, like the heat death of the Universe

Truly. Would have been more than acceptable.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

I wanna hear this album for the same exact reason why I wanna watch a new Corey Feldman movie....I just wanna see how spectacular the FAIL is going to be

[thefragile_jake]

Going through Netphoria last night to catch up on reactions to Cyr was pretty hilarious.

[neorev]

While I agree that Shiny and oh so Bright was a terrible album name, I do kind of feel some resentment toward the change. When looking over the Pumpkin's back catalog in the future, "Shiny" is going to stick out as even more of an awkward title than it already was- Let's not forget that the full name was "SHINY AND OH SO BRIGHT, VOL 1. LP: NO FUTURE. NO PAST. NO SUN." Why did they feel the need to attach "Volume 1" to it if there wasn't going to be a volume 2? I could see it being interesting if they built some sort of trend of longer, more epic albums (like 'Cyr' seems to be going for) and then releasing shorter, more conceptually scattered "Shiny" albums in between. But, I'm certainly not counting on anything like that happening, and would be shocked if that were the case. My guess is we'll just never see the Shiny concept returned to again...

Which brings me to the next point: it was not an interesting concept of an album, and didn't really function 'conceptually' at all. It was super short and stylistically inconsistent. It felt very much like the band in the studio, testing out a couple different approaches- oh, here's the song that throws back to 1979, here's a hard rocker or two, here's one with slow dreamy guitars and here's some machina-style weirdness - just to get a sort of test run under their belt, and to have something to go along with the big tour they did. The grandly ambitious and willfully pretentious conceptualization of the music really worked for Billy in the 90s, because there was just enough genuine yearning inside the music to make their often absurd boundary pushing something more compelling and palatable to a mass audience. Mellon Collie is a fucking ridiculous album, but it's also fucking brilliant because it seems so fully committed to its absurdities. Now? It feels like a hollow simulation of that same grandness. The Shiny album would have worked better if it was rolled out with little fanfare: We were jamming around in the studio and remembered why we love making music; we don't have much usable material yet and the art direction is gonna be minimalistic, but we like what we're doing and we wanna share it with you to let you know we're all back; Here's a short, simple album called "The Smashing Pumpkins."

I guarantee you if something like that happened, the reception of Shiny would have been stronger among die-hard fans. But we're all so aware of and jaded from Billy's bullshit that we see through the artificial crap immediately, and there's already heaps of pretentious crap to make fun of before the album is even out.

The entire discography since the original reunion has been completely slapdash. Zeitgeist has a billion different versions, but no complete one; worse, the best tracks are the ones that are hardest to find. Teargarden was supposed to be this grand, sweeping thing, 64 songs churned out prolifically over the course of two years, but instead we got 2.5 ep's of mostly subpar, stylistically jumbled material over two years. Then, Oceania was supposed to be the "album within the album" kind of bullshit, but that was just an excuse to keep Billy from admitting he was abandoning the whole teargarden concept. Followed by that, there's Monuments, which... when I thought of it as one half of a two album series, I thought it'd be decent, with its weaknesses perhaps being addressed by strengths in the second album, but now it is just this.... shallow, slight album that mostly does nothing for me and can't stack up to anything else in the discography; it's completely half-baked. And now this abandoning of the Shiny "concept" is just another in this series of gaffes. Everything about this band has failed to cohere in any compelling way, even though it goes through the motions of trying to sound grand and ambitious. To make matters worse, it looks like this art direction is quite similar to the direction for Shiny. So they will always feel like they belong to the same era of music, even if the names will say otherwise. Ugh.

The music is also not great, for the most part. But man, it'd probably feel a little better if there was any sort of narrative we could latch onto as fans.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by NIN's hyper-organized halo numbering thing making it so easy to understand the history of the band...

The more Billy hides behind these "concept" albums, the more I feel he has nothing personal to say. Why open up my soul when I can create a fictional character and some lame story about love conquers all? It just seems painfully cringe includingly fake to me... like Billy's spirituality.

[GulDukat]

New songs sound great, imho, so I don't really care about the name.

Pre-ordered my copy via amazon, looking forward to getting the CD in the mail.

Hopefully the election will be called for Biden by the time it's released.

[Shadaloo]

And now this abandoning of the Shiny "concept" is just another in this series of gaffes.

Has it been though? What's in a name?

https://media.pitchfork.com/photos/5bef30825c3e052e5659a079/1:1/w_600/shinyandohsobright.jpg

https://static.stereogum.com/uploads/2020/09/smashing-pumpkins-cyr-tracklist-1600391738-640x640.jpg

I feel like the reason the Shiny title is omitted is a mixture of factors; Everyone calls the first one "Shiny And Oh So Bright" and not "No Past No Future No Sun". Maybe Bill feels like "Shiny" is now synonymous with Vol. 1. Maybe it underperformed and now he wants to distance himself from the project name. Probably both.

But to me, the album art speaks for itself; this is volume 2. These two probably have more to do with each other than Oceania and Monuments had to do with those Teargarden EPs, and the omission of "Shiny" From the title is a business decision, but IMO a dumb one. Best thing he could do is roll with the punches and still keep it in print on the album art.

[WorzelG]

Hopefully the election will be called for Biden by the time it's released.
Impressed by your optimism here! How much worse can 2020 get

[ZeroSum]

But to me, the album art speaks for itself; this is volume 2. These two probably have more to do with each other than Oceania and Monuments had to do with those Teargarden EPs, and the omission of "Shiny" From the title is a business decision, but IMO a dumb one. Best thing he could do is roll with the punches and still keep it in print on the album art.

I think you're right on this. For one, the lineup is the same as Shiny, Volume 1. And the style of the two singles we've gotten so far definitely like they proceeded from a similar songwriting headspace as the Vol. 1 material-- that being, they're tight, straightforward compositions, privileging pop melody first and foremost. I just wish there was a sense of consistency from album to album, especially since there's always been this grand, overarching goal that Billy seems to attach himself to, only to abandon later. It's annoying more than anything else.

All my criticism in the previous post considered, I'm pretty excited for this release. I haven't been a big fan of most what Billy's done since ending the original band's run, but I have always found things to enjoy. Also, I caught them twice on the 2018 tour, and they were incredible. I'm really thankful I was able to see this band in that way; other than NIN, Billy's music has meant more to me than any other artist. He infuriates me to no end as a human being and creative dictator of all things SP, but I'll always be there for his creative output.

[sonic_discord]

The fact that every single one of these 20 songs is in the 3-4 minute range really bums me out. And the fact that this thing fits on a single CD, yet they're charging $18 for it on iTunes is also kind of bullshit. I really hope there are some seriously good songs on this thing when I hear the rest, because so far, I'm disappointed. And I've been a fan since 1995/96 who has defended a lot of their more recent material.

[Disassociative]

The fact that every single one of these 20 songs is in the 3-4 minute range really bums me out. And the fact that this thing fits on a single CD, yet they're charging $18 for it on iTunes is also kind of bullshit. I really hope there are some seriously good songs on this thing when I hear the rest, because so far, I'm disappointed. And I've been a fan since 1995/96 who has defended a lot of their more recent material.

Cotillions was marketed as a 'double album' but was only 67 minutes long. Longer than Siamese Dream. A traditional single album.
I'm only a teeny tiny bit annoyed by his misuse of 'double album' again.

[sonic_discord]

Cotillions was marketed as a 'double album' but was only 67 minutes long. Longer than Siamese Dream. A traditional single album.
I'm only a teeny tiny bit annoyed by his misuse of 'double album' again.

It kind of bugged me when Metallica called their last album (Hardwired... to Self Destruct) a double album, despite the fact that all 12 tracks fit on a single CD. I know that vinyl records used to be how that was measured, then CDs became the norm and vinyl is now back to being the more popular audio format, so it may TECHNICALLY be true... but in that case, albums like Siamese Dream, Adore, Machina, and The Downward Spiral are all considered "double albums," The Fragile is a "triple album," and Mellon Collie is "quadruple album"... except that's not what they're called despite how many slabs of vinyl they take up.

[GulDukat]

It kind of bugged me when Metallica called their last album (Hardwired... to Self Destruct) a double album, despite the fact that all 12 tracks fit on a single CD.

I know some people were irked about that, but they kept the price down (I got the deluxe, three CDs for $10). I got it, they wanted to break the album down and wanted it to be experienced in two separate listening experiences.

[sonic_discord]

I know some people were irked about that, but they kept the price down (I got the deluxe, three CDs for $10). I got it, they wanted to break the album down and wanted it to be experienced in two separate listening experiences.

Right. If it's a choice like that where they just want to break it up for artistic reasons, but not increase the price for the consumer because it's more of a "cosmetic" decision, I don't really take issue with that. 20 tracks may seem like a lot when you consider their last two releases were 9 and 8 tracks, respectively. Still, 72 minutes counts as a standard LP to me and trying to milk that for double-album money comes off as greedy. I mean, both Adore and Machina are longer albums at 73:25 and 73:23 in length, for fuck's sake.

For the record (no pun intended), I still pre-ordered it because I'm confident I'll like at least some of it.

[Disassociative]

Right. If it's a choice like that where they just want to break it up for artistic reasons, but not increase the price for the consumer because it's more of a "cosmetic" decision, I don't really take issue with that. 20 tracks may seem like a lot when you consider their last two releases were 9 and 8 tracks, respectively. Still, 72 minutes counts as a standard LP to me and trying to milk that for double-album money comes off as greedy. I mean, both Adore and Machina are longer albums at 73:25 and 73:23 in length, for fuck's sake.

For the record (no pun intended), I still pre-ordered it because I'm confident I'll like at least some of it.

Wasn’t 72 minutes usually the maximum safe length to put on a CD at some point too? I’m sure I remember reading that years ago some CD players had issues with CDs that used up the whole 78/80 minutes.
anyway, I’ve not pre ordered it but I’m cautiously optimistic because I did like Cyr. It’s not the type of song I was expecting from a reunited SP (I was thinking more Shiny Vol. 1 but maybe with one or two longer ‘epics’ or something) but I found it surprisingly enjoyable. Even if some of the track names are peak Billy-ness and give me a bit of apprehension.

[neorev]

Wasn’t 72 minutes usually the maximum safe length to put on a CD at some point too? I’m sure I remember reading that years ago some CD players had issues with CDs that used up the whole 78/80 minutes.
anyway, I’ve not pre ordered it but I’m cautiously optimistic because I did like Cyr. It’s not the type of song I was expecting from a reunited SP (I was thinking more Shiny Vol. 1 but maybe with one or two longer ‘epics’ or something) but I found it surprisingly enjoyable. Even if some of the track names are peak Billy-ness and give me a bit of apprehension.

The Prodigy's Music For The Jilted Generation is 78 minutes. Released in 1994.

[implanted_microchip]

Well, 2 new songs and still zero signs of this being any good

[sonic_discord]

The Prodigy's Music For The Jilted Generation is 78 minutes. Released in 1994.

Tool's Lateralus is 78:51 and Fear Inoculum is 79:10 (Digital version is 86:38)
Metallica's Load is 78:59

I remember reading about this around the time when Metallica's Hardwired was coming out because a lot of people were bitching about it and this person on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/LetsTalkMusic/comments/5dtki5/whats_the_point_of_double_albums_below_a_duration/) nailed it:


Each disc, not each album sold, is counted towards the charts. So if you sell ten copies of an album with one disk the chart will count ten sales. But if you sell ten copies of a double album it counts as twenty sales, because each disc is counted, doubling your chart position.

This is why "white album" is The Beatles best selling album, despite selling fewer units than some other Beatle albums, and why "The Wall" by Pink Floyd ranks in the top highest selling albums. Double album = double the chart position.

So my guess would be that this is one reason that bands like Metallica might opt for turning an album into two discs. It can also be a nice way to divide an album thematically (since we no long have to flip records part way through). You can use each disc to hold a coherent theme that doesn't exist through all 77 minutes, but might exist through about half.

It's either a cash-grab or there's an artistic reason to divide the album in half, even if it's just to provide a "breather" or intermission, which I believe to be the case with Metallica's latest effort. Halo on Fire and Spit Out the Bone (easily my favorite Metallica songs since the Black album) are both such strong closers that it kinda makes sense to split it up. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, they only increased the cost by a couple of bucks (it's $12 on iTunes) and at 77:42, it's longer than Cyr ($18 on iTunes). I'm just hoping that Cyr is somehow divided into two halves for some kind of creative or thematic reason. Maybe there's a drastic stylistic shift halfway through and the second half feels different than the first somehow, which would indeed merit/justify their separation. For example, maybe the first half is more synth-driven and upbeat the second half is more guitar-driven and angry/sad or something like that. If not, my cynicism will lead me to believe that Billy may have made this decision based on the numbers and a desire to achieve (or at least appear to achieve) a higher level of success and monetary return – even if it's only technically true because the numbers are doubled – so that the Pumpkins can give the illusion of regaining their former glory, popularity, and success of their '90s heyday. Honestly, I'd LOVE for them to release something magical that genuinely gets people to love the band again, but so far, I don't think this will be it. In fact, I'm beginning to fear that he wants to re-capture that popularity and success so bad that he'll do things like make a double-album (that doesn't really need to be a double-album) full of radio-friendly songs in the 3-4 minute range to get there. Again, I hope I'm wrong.
Signed, a fan of 25 years who used to call the Pumpkins his favorite band, but has been losing hope.

[eversonpoe]

Wasn’t 72 minutes usually the maximum safe length to put on a CD at some point too? I’m sure I remember reading that years ago some CD players had issues with CDs that used up the whole 78/80 minutes.
anyway, I’ve not pre ordered it but I’m cautiously optimistic because I did like Cyr. It’s not the type of song I was expecting from a reunited SP (I was thinking more Shiny Vol. 1 but maybe with one or two longer ‘epics’ or something) but I found it surprisingly enjoyable. Even if some of the track names are peak Billy-ness and give me a bit of apprehension.

the original redbook CD length was 74:27

...74 minutes to accommodate the recording of Wilhelm Furtwängler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Furtw%C3%A4ngler) conducting Ludwig van Beethoven (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven)'s Ninth Symphony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven)) at the 1951 Bayreuth Festival (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayreuth_Festival).

they eventually expanded it to 79:57

[Disassociative]

Not feeling those two as much as I did Cyr and The Colour of Love.

[Piko]

With Metallica, I think it was total 80 min area, right? I always figured it was split up because of that.

This album is definitely not that. I would at least hope that the second half is different from the first. That could explain it somewhat, I guess...

What blows my mind. This is a band with a monster drummer and THREE guitar players. Where's the guitar? Where the hell is Jimmy?

I don't mind the songs. This is not Smashing Pumpkins though. I don't hear a band. This is a glorified Billy solo album.

[Maximilian]

So he got James and Jimmy back into the band, but all 4 of these songs are synthpop tunes he could have done solo. I don't get it.

Edit: I wrote this without reading Piko's post before. Can't delete it. The point still stands.

[Lerxto]

Exactly what @Piko (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=358) and @Maximilian (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=412) said, I've been saying it too since August when they released Cyr (the song).

This is TFE 2.0. Billy solo effort, definitely not Pumpkins. Jimmy is a drummer who can make even Run2me sound great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpL0tMna_bE

[Shadaloo]

This is Day For Night in all but name, the album Billy initially said he was making following Monuments. He said he was going for some kinda 80's coldwave/synthy thing. Here we are.

There's apparently a new interview with Zane Lowe on Apple where he says Volume 3 is 10 songs. "Hazy, psychedelic". It's about 60% done and he stopped because he needs help from the other members of SP.

And while Waiting for Volume 3 to be done he started a new solo album, which he defines as a "Magnum rock opus". :rolleyes:

Please be aware Billy Corgan Is The Smashing Pumpkins. That's the agenda here.

[neorev]

Let me know when Billy is actually writing songs with Jimmy and James, and I'll care enough to check it out. Another uninspiring Billy solo project, see you later.

I'll categorize Cyr as very-coldwave... as in cold and emotionless. There are artists doing this style of music much, MUCH better.

[Piko]

I'm not really shocked by the synth direction. This has been his gradual progression since 2005. Majority of the Teargarden stuff (Oceania and Monuments included) focused heavily on synths.

I don't dislike the new songs. Just a waste of James and Jimmy imo.

[neorev]

Another 2 songs that plod around and go nowhere. Cold, boring, and soulless. 3-4 minutes of Billy barely trying. A meandering, directionless borefest. If only there were just a hint of emotion in these songs. The equivalent of watching paint dry.

I get it, 2020 royally sucks ass.
Wanna know what sucks more than 2020?
These new songs from the Billy Corgan Experience.

[Shadaloo]

...Show me on the doll where he hurt you?

Dopamine Addict has too much fauxetry which clashes badly with the music, but I like Wrath. The melody's nice.

[fillow]

Where is the new Muse album when you need to bash something...

[r_z]

So, um, how much input did James and Jimmy have on Adore?

Trent and Atticus do NIN mostly on their own as well... yet no one is complaining about Robin or Ilan not contributing much.

[Piko]

So, um, how much input did James and Jimmy have on Adore?

Trent and Atticus do NIN mostly on their own as well... yet no one is complaining about Robin or Ilan not contributing much.Jimmy wasn't in the band. James was doing his solo album at the time. He's all over adore though.

Trent and Atticus ARE Nine Inch Nails. Everyone else are just touring members or guest contributors. Not the same.

[neorev]

So, um, how much input did James and Jimmy have on Adore?

Trent and Atticus do NIN mostly on their own as well... yet no one is complaining about Robin or Ilan not contributing much.

Jimmy was booted from the band.
James is all over Adore. So is D'Arcy. There's a whole making of Adore doc showing the 3 of them together working on the album. James even has a couple of his own vocal tracks recorded during the Adore sessions.


https://youtu.be/LDwXwTbyuNg

https://youtu.be/B529RDSjiYw

https://youtu.be/QC2fVhVrGZA


Also, Nine Inch Nails was always mainly Trent, not a band, hence why it still always sounds like NIN. I also think Trent does better when he has more collaborators around him. SP was a band, not The Billy Corgan Experience, hence why Billy's solo music and this fake SP doesn't sound the same or as good without the original band. So you can't really compare the two. SP was 4 band members bouncing off each other. NIN is Trent (now Trent & Atticus) sometimes with guests. Zeitgeist was the last album that sounded like Billy was trying. I miss the musicianship that was in SP music.

[Shadaloo]

SP was a band in the sense that all the ideas that James, D'Arcy and Jimmy had were funneled and filtered through Billy. When it comes to songwriting, it's always been 90% Billy, with the others offering creative input. James made songwriting contributions which lessened more and more by the time Adore rolled around. Most of what he wrote from 1995-2000 was relegated to B-sides, the exceptions being Take Me Down and Go. Now we even know thanks to the leaks that the band tried out One And Two, which wound up on Iha's solo album Let It Come Down.

You'll never find me saying that said creative input didn't help to make the band awesome, and there's a case to be made that the less of it there was, the more the magic went away.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

If Billy's hero Trump gets reelected, then you may see some happy songs from Billy......This guy was on Howard Stern last year with the entire band. They were standing there in silence for an hour like kidnap victims while Billy was rambling on about how he knows people who are half human and half lizard reptilians. Amazes me anyone takes this clownboy seriously anymore

[neorev]

Mellon Collie, a band in a room. Billy needs the rest of the band. On his own, that intensity and emotion is just not there. Without James, none of the atmosphere is there. James is a big part of the SP sound. Just look at Zeitgeist. Billy had Jimmy, but was still missing something without James. It needs to be a band in a room actually playing and playing off each other.


https://youtu.be/_U7QGPz4xmA

Again, I miss the musicianship.

[Shadaloo]

That intensity and emotion died when he stopped being an angry young man with something to prove with years of pent-up angst surrounded by emotional turmoil. You could get all four of the original members of the band back together in a room tomorrow and it wouldn't get Bill to stop putting out synthpop, and it wouldn't get him to stop writing his lyrics like a bargain basement Robert Frost.

Age affects people differently. William Patrick Corgan views himself as a poet laureate, uses healing crystals and owns a tea shop. He wears who he was as a costume for greatest hits shows, and I don't mean any of that as derisive.

[neorev]

Well, at least I still got the Deftones. They haven't missed a beat.

Trent's pretty old too and still delivering it.

[Shadaloo]

Personally, I'd say it's a question of faith, or lack of it.

I think one of the reasons Trent and Chino are capable of delivering what they do as opposed to Billy is that they're not afraid to look into the abyss a little. The Cold & Black & Infinite EP Trilogy was basically "What if everything we believe is a simulation, or at worst, bullshit and there's no reason for anything?" as a theme. Meanwhile, Chino's not afraid to keep shaking his fist at the sky with songs like Pompeji.

Machina is kind of an album that follows someone who's faithless and winds up finding it in the end and it winds up saving him (or something). And by the time Mary Star Of The Sea came out, the guy was basically a born-again Christian (again, not being derisive when I say that).

So many of Billy's best songs are about having a god complex or being heartbroken, the abuse he suffered as a kid, or the pain of growing up, or poisonous relationships, or struggling with self-hate, etc. and...I don't think he's capable of being that guy anymore. Like, Oceania was supposedly the result of a painful breakup and if he hadn't said as much I wouldn't have known.

I don't think Billy wants to look into the abyss anymore...or he feels he doesn't need to.

[neorev]

Someone please go push Billy into the abyss already so we can finally get a decent album

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/content/uploads/sites/2/2015/04/15/1208820717388032428.gif

[rampface]

The mix on these new recordings gives me a headache. Billy's vocals are piercing my skull.

[Shadaloo]

ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

https://i.ibb.co/VDP4Bmz/Screenshot-20200929-001554.jpg

[Shadaloo]

https://i.ibb.co/QMx9382/Screenshot-20200929-070053-com-instagram-android.jpg


I AM WALKING ERECT NOW

[sonic_discord]

I am interested in seeing how the Machina remaster/re-release shapes up. I love HALF of Machina and I honestly never cared that much about a lot of the Machina II material. The production was likely a factor. I'm hoping that this new version that attempts to revive the originally intended double-album sequence and a hopefully clearer production produces a result that I can rediscover and fall in love with like so many others already have. This release also reminds me a lot of Tom Petty's Wildflowers, which is also getting the remastered treatment and being re-released as a double album, as was originally intended.

[poinoup]

1) Machina 2 = Good
2) Cyr song = Eh, it's alright...
3) Cartoon = Looks too pretentious
4) Billy = wha happun?

[GulDukat]

Imagine if Francis Ford Coppola was told that he had to re-cut The Godfather Parts I and II and make a single film that was 90 minutes from the two movies. That's what he go with the original Machina.

[neorev]

Imagine if Francis Ford Coppola was told that he had to re-cut The Godfather Parts I and II and make a single film that was 90 minutes from the two movies. That's what he go with the original Machina.

Godfather Part 1 and Godfather Part 2 are both great movies, and I'm sure would've been a great combined movie

So Billy somehow took 2 great albums and turned it into 1 shitty album? Doubtful.
I'm still expecting a bloated mess like the official release we got.

[Piko]

Ive always been curious about what the intended order is. This set is and has been one of my most anticipated things for a long time. Granted bonus hearing some of these songs with better mixes as well (white spyder, real love, etc).

Machina 2 is already amazing on it's own. Machina 1 is good too. Hearing them as a combined double album should be interesting. I do hope, though, that the sets include the originals too.

[GulDukat]

Godfather Part 1 and Godfather Part 2 are both great movies, and I'm sure would've been a great combined movie

So Billy somehow took 2 great albums and turned it into 1 shitty album? Doubtful.
I'm still expecting a bloated mess like the official release we got.
The Machina that was released 20 years was not what Billy had envisioned. I think that once people hear the album in full, front-to-back with all the songs from 1 and 2, the album will be better appreciated.

[AndItKeepsRepeating]

The Machina that was released 20 years was not what Billy had envisioned. I think that once people hear the album in full, front-to-back with all the songs from 1 and 2, the album will be better appreciated.

I hope so too, I've been waiting for this for 20 years. So I'll probably disappointed but it'll be interesting to hear and a must buy regardless

[fillow]

Machina and Machina II are both amazing records.

[neorev]

The Machina that was released 20 years was not what Billy had envisioned. I think that once people hear the album in full, front-to-back with all the songs from 1 and 2, the album will be better appreciated.

The Billy of today fucking with the Machina songs of old is worrying
I can't wait for The Everlasting Gaze with Billy's vocals turned up +10dbs and Heavy Metal Machine Version 3.1

The only song I'm psyched to hear properly done is Home. Mostly, the drums just need slightly more presence/brightening.

[Shadaloo]

I'm convinced the complete Machina album will be like 3 discs. I'm ready for it.

https://i.ibb.co/Z6LyPhT/Screenshot-20201001-210929-com-instagram-android.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/Ws1Zsb6/Screenshot-20201001-210922-com-instagram-android.jpg

Slap my hype into high gear you unholy bald bastard

[rampface]

I hope he doesn't fuck this up

[Piko]

I'm convinced the complete Machina album will be like 3 discs. I'm ready for it.

https://i.ibb.co/Z6LyPhT/Screenshot-20201001-210929-com-instagram-android.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/Ws1Zsb6/Screenshot-20201001-210922-com-instagram-android.jpg

Slap my hype into high gear you unholy bald bastardI'm thinking it'll be more. About as much as Mellon Collie. There's a lot of material. And that's assuming they don't include the original orders as well. I'm thinking about 5. 3-4 LP.

[Shadaloo]

I'm thinking it'll be more. About as much as Mellon Collie. There's a lot of material. And that's assuming they don't include the original orders as well. I'm thinking about 5. 3-4 LP.

Oh, I'm just talking about the core album. The Adore reissue had three bonus discs and the album in mono, I'd be surprised if the whole thing didn't turn out like:

Machina recompiled: 3CDs
Machina I original
Machina II original: 2 CDs
3-4 CDs of bonus material
DVD

I'm honestly predicting a $200 CD box, if not more. Lord knows about records.

[eversonpoe]

I'm honestly predicting a $200 CD box, if not more. Lord knows about records.

:: strokes original copy of machina on vinyl :: "it's ok, baby...you're not going anywhere, i swear...i'll find the money somehow"

[seasonsinthesky]

I'm honestly predicting a $200 CD box, if not more. Lord knows about records.

The vinyl reissues haven't had bonuses or anything, just the main album. Following that trend, I suspect it will just be the recompiled album on a 3x or 4xLP.

Honestly don't see the original albums being reissued on vinyl at all, which is a bummer for me – in that case, I'd definitely be buying the CD box only. This assumes BC will ruin the new mixes, though, so I guess there's a chance I won't hate the remix and will buy it too.

[sonic_discord]

Another new song released tonight. This time it's for the song Anno Satana and I think kinda like this one.

https://youtu.be/kmLvMm8SRdY

[sonic_discord]

If you've pre-ordered the album, Birch Grove is also available tonight.

[neorev]

2 more songs of meandering, dynamicless, soulless, emotionless, structureless, going nowhere, bandless, all sounds the same borefest.

Billy calls himself a musician yet where is the musicianship?

This reminds me of an 80s version of that shitty band Visiting Day from The Sopranos that Adriana wanted to manage, just worse songs of meandering, dynamicless, soulless, emotionless, structureless, going nowhere, bandless, all sounds the same borefest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHGjtU8h7Fs

Even better, Billy really thought the album needed 20 tracks of this. 20 tracks of the same meandering garbage.

[armogi]

I personally can deal with all of the questionable stuff, it's his vision after all and he can do as he pleases but man do I hate these female backing vocals, no disrespect to them and I'm sure they are talented but they are on every fucking song, not sure it's that necessary in the end.

[Shadaloo]

If you've pre-ordered the album, Birch Grove is also available tonight.


Did you get an email? I didn't get an email.

Feels like Birch Grove might be about people preferring a version of him that no longer exists. Interesting.

[neorev]

Feels like Birch Grove might be about people preferring a version of him that no longer exists. Interesting.

You mean the talented version who knew how to write a decent song? Yea, tell me about. It seems that version of him surely does not exist anymore.

[Shadaloo]

You mean the talented version who knew how to write a decent song? Yea, tell me about. It seems that version of him surely does not exist anymore.

You'd think that by now maybe you'd have moved on or something?

[neorev]

You'd think that by now maybe you'd have moved on or something?

Nope. This is a trainwreck of epic proportions and I'm here to watch it all play out. I can't wait for Billy to blame the fans for not getting it. I can't wait for when they return to the live shows and how bored the audience will be during these songs shouting, "Play Cherub Rock!"

[Shadaloo]

Nope. This is a trainwreck of epic proportions and I'm here to watch it all play out. I can't wait for Billy to blame the fans for not getting it. I can't wait for when they return to the live shows and how bored the audience will be during these songs shouting, "Play Cherub Rock!"

Hey, you do you, but there are by and large reasons I don't post in various threads around here; the artists don't make music that speaks to me anymore, so I don't bother (Looking at you Depeche Mode). I'll never understand wanting someone to fail, even if they're a douche like Billy tends to be.

And really and truly, I don't think he cares anymore. This entire album seems intentionally orchestrated as a giant "fuck you" to everyone to wanted SP to sound remotely recognizable, and I kinda dig the stones it takes to do something like that, even if not every song jibes with me. Last year one of his Instagram answers said people would be pissed off in the future, and I'm pretty sure this is what he was referring to.

Flipside of your wish though is that everyone will also talking about how much better the new songs sound live, which has happened with every single release dating back to Machina.

[neorev]

Hey, you do you, but there are by and large reasons I don't post in various threads around here; the artists don't make music that speaks to me anymore, so I don't bother (Looking at you Depeche Mode). I'll never understand wanting someone to fail, even if they're a douche like Billy tends to be.

And really and truly, I don't think he cares anymore. This entire album seems intentionally orchestrated as a giant "fuck you" to everyone to wanted SP to sound remotely recognizable, and I kinda dig the stones it takes to do something like that, even if not every song jibes with me. Last year one of his Instagram answers said people would be pissed off in the future, and I'm pretty sure this is what he was referring to.

Flipside of your wish though is that everyone will also talking about how much better the new songs sound live, which has happened with every single release dating back to Machina.

See, you're mistaken there. I don't want Billy to fail. I want him to make an awesome album. This is just so bafflingly bad that I am in awe. He finally has his band back together and he made this crap. I guess Billy is aiming for those Starbucks tweens. At least with Billy's past work, there were hints of something redeeming. Superchrist, Astral Planes, Inkless, Tiberius, Marching On. Then, you get this. By far, the worst thing he's done.

I don't see these songs changing much live. They're too electronic and too rigid. Previous stuff has room to breathe and for Jimmy and even James to add some stuff. I can't see that happening with these. Another issue is these songs just do not change. It's 3-4 minutes of the same blah beat. There's just not enough there to amp them up unless Billy completely reworks them from the ground up. As they are, there's no room for Jimmy to go wild or Billy to riff/solo.. But I'm guessing it'll be just Jimmy playing along to some click-based programmed beats. And we've seen the shows now. It's all highly rehearsed, never changing, no jamming allowed. Billy couldn't be bothered to remove the live intros to some songs that were originally set to video for their big screen/video tour on the later tour without the screens. It's all just so programmed now. Even the live shows have lost the soul of a live show by becoming so rigid. It wasn't like that before up until the reunion tour.

[BrokenSpiral]

I hope the first side of this album is all this electro pop. And the second side is Tales of a Scorched Earth.






A guy can hope right?

[ZeroSum]

Man, I really want to like this stuff, but I was bored of Anno Satana within the first minute and a half. Birch Grove is pretty nice, though, I guess. Neither of these songs makes me particularly excited for the album.

Song rankings so far:

1.Wrath (Thought this one had nothing to it, but repeat listens have me loving it. Actually gets stuck in my head from time to time)
2.Confessions (Succeeds in terms of mood; this reminds me a lot of what they were trying to do around the Adore era. Reminds me a bit of Eye)
3. Birch (Something about this one feels a little more genuine; it's not a fantastic song by any means but I do like the emotion that comes through)
4. Cyr (Genuine "wtf" reaction to this one when I first heard it; I've since decided it really is pretty catchy despite its awkwardness)
5. Anno Satana (There are a lot of elements I like about this song, like the nifty little guitar bit, but this one feels especially flat. Feels like there was the opportunity for a good song here, but there's a lack of that x factor to push it over into being something more memorable. That's kinda how Billy's music has felt since Monuments imo.)
6. Colour (lazy lyrics are super offputting here; I think it's the least interesting melodically)

[Shadaloo]

See, you're mistaken there. I don't want Billy to fail. I want him to make an awesome album....Superchrist, Astral Planes, Inkless, Tiberius, Marching On.

But you want him to succeed on your terms, making straight rock music; all those are examples of songs that use the traditional guitar/bass/drums. And you're talking about Jimmy going wild on drums and Billy doing solos and riffs and...


They're too electronic

There you go. That's why you don't like it.

I'm sitting here, and I'm remembering stuff like Eye, Pug, The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning, Saturnine, Blissed and Gone, the covers of Destination Unknown, Isolation. This stuff has precedent.

And all of the above songs work just fine live, from all the performances I've seen where they were played, those that were, as did TheFutureEmbrace tracks (And for a good example of how he can change things up, check out his acoustic performance of Now And Then on the Ogilala tour)


By far, the worst thing he's done

Like Machina was the worst thing he's ever done. Like Mary Star Of The Sea. Like Zeitgeist. Teargarden. Oceania. Monuments. No Past No Future No Sun. Here we are.

It's the same shit every single time he puts out an album, and I'm just...tired of it. This stuff sure ain't up to classic SP levels, but we're nowhere near "Widow Wake My Mind" or "Owata" areas of terrible cheesy awfulness.


And we've seen the shows now. It's all highly rehearsed, never changing, no jamming allowed. Billy couldn't be bothered to remove the live intros to some songs that were originally set to video for their big screen/video tour on the later tour without the screens. It's all just so programmed now. Even the live shows have lost the soul of a live show by becoming so rigid. It wasn't like that before up until the reunion tour.

Because he spent years having people go, as you put it, tell him to "Play Cherub Rock". So he did. He trotted out all the hits, he made it a great big parody spectacle, because you tell him to do something and he throws it back in your face. It's the way the guy's always operated. You want them to be a rock band? Boom. "Stairway to Heaven." HERE-IS-EXACTLY-WHAT-YOU-WANT.

It will never be 1995 again, and as much as people like to defend themselves and say "I don't want them to do SD or MCIS again" they still want them to do that type of music. To jam, to go on 25 minute rock solos.

Flashback: 2007. Goassamer. He did. And people told him it sucked.

Granted, he is over-sensitive; the whole reason ChicagoKid got shelved was because people on the internet complained it wasn't rock music. And that was stupid.

But that was 2004 or so. At this point, If I was him, getting the same reactions after all these years, I'd tell my old fanbase to go fuck themselves, too.

[Shadaloo]

You know what I'm reminded of? Mechanical Animals and Kid A. Not that I'm saying that this will in any way be comparable to how time has looked fondly on those albums, but...I've been here before. "What is this electronic shit?" "What is this glam rock shit"?

Well, no reward without risk. I sincerely do hope this album succeeds.

[implanted_microchip]

I have no problem with more electronic stuff from them, Adore is maybe my favorite SP record even. These songs just suck. All of them feel lifeless, plodding and forgettable. I remember part of Cyr and that’s it despite having listened to every single track released so far. I have a feeling that the whole album is going to be like these, 20 songs that blur together and go nowhere and not a single track with any semi-relatable or human lyrics.

Billy’s always done some ridiculous shit in the past, but there was a balance to it — the weird titles were sprinkled in, the more flowery writing would get contrasted by incredibly direct and emotional stuff, there was a diversity to it all that feels completely absent from this. If you’re going to get the band back together, get them back together, don’t just use them for marketing purposes. There’s no reason for Jimmy or James to be in this band at this point other than the touring money must be good.

[thefragile_jake]

You could make action figures out of how plastic these new songs sound.

[Self.Destructive.Pattern]

For someone that loved all of their earlier work, I keep hearing Oceania is a good one to jump into regarding their new material, that accurate? I stopped paying attention after the Kaleidoscope EP's.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Starting to think Shadaloo is Billy's burner account. It has nothing to do with him experimenting. It has to do with him sucking. The dude doesn't know how to write a good song anymore. Whatever talent he HAD, is long gone. I don't think he could write another 'bullet with butterfly wings' or straight ahead rock song even if he wanted to. Its over for Billy boy. The carcass that is the Smashing Pumpkins is laying in the middle of the road for all to see. Now we all just want to glance at the dead body before the flies and vultures pick it clean

[Shadaloo]

Starting to think Shadaloo is Billy's burner account.

No, I'm just someone who's been following this band for years and I'm used to the same old shit, again and again. Give it a few years and people will be 'reevaluating' it after it all sinks in.

I've said it before, I'm not calling these songs great, but I really do like Wrath and Birch Grove a lot. The others are middle of the road.

But you?

You legitimately think Manson's Hot Topic period ended when he started offering Hot Topic exclusives. Your opinion means less than nothing to me.


I don't think he could write another 'bullet with butterfly wings' or straight ahead rock song even if he wanted to.

There it is again.


Now we all just want to glance at the dead body before the flies and vultures pick it clean

Speak for yourself; after all, judging by the Gary Numan thread, it's the way you like to envision yourself.

And it's fucking sad.

[cahernandez]

I have no problem with more electronic stuff from them, Adore is maybe my favorite SP record even. These songs just suck. All of them feel lifeless, plodding and forgettable. I remember part of Cyr and that’s it despite having listened to every single track released so far. I have a feeling that the whole album is going to be like these, 20 songs that blur together and go nowhere and not a single track with any semi-relatable or human lyrics.


You hit the nail on the head! I have no issues with electronic stuff, Adore is one of the best records any band has done, but this stuff is bland and unimaginative.


No, I'm just someone who's been following this band for years and I'm used to the same old shit, again and again. Give it a few years and people will be 'reevaluating' it after it all sinks in.


I don't know man...Monuments to an Elegy still sounds like a borefest to my ears. Oceania, on the other hand, felt great for me since the first spin. I really don't know what happened in Oceania...he had a great producer to rein him in, or maybe he was in a great creative mood then? Oceania is a homerun to my ears. Zeitgeist is good too (not great). This stuff is just sad. After Monuments to an Elegy I didn't bother to pick up Shiny Vol. 1 (first SP album I don't buy, it seems like the trend will continue with this one).


For someone that loved all of their earlier work, I keep hearing Oceania is a good one to jump into regarding their new material, that accurate? I stopped paying attention after the Kaleidoscope EP's.

Go get Oceania, man, it's great. The live album showcasing that record is also good stuff.

[Shadaloo]

Something I've been thinking about lately, mostly because I've been listening to Fear Factory a bunch since Burton left (again), and that's a band who never changed their sound up and doesn't seem to have much of a fanbase left. Or KMFDM over the past 10 years, for that matter.

If Billzebub had stuck to standard rock, had never shot for the electrogoth Adore atmosphere, the cyberprog of the Machinas, the faux-psychedelia of Teargarden, the..whatever the fuck Monuments was, and now this...would anyone still be talking about his music?

Or would it be more like U2, Pearl Jam, where an album comes out and it's basically "yep, sure is another unremarkable U2 album" and then everyone forgets about it the next month?

I kinda feel like if he were making the kind of albums people want him to make, it'd be just that, but even more disappointing, because he clearly isn't mr. angsty rockstar anymore. Like, imagine his current over-wrought lyrical tendencies over shredding guitar riffs. Just...blech. Something like "Marchin' On" just might be the best he's capable of.

I think the bands that leave the biggest marks are those who aren't afraid to change things up, keep current. That doesn't mean they get a pass for shaking things up - nobody thinks Wild Mood Swings is a good Cure album - but it's a major reason people still love Bowie, NIN, why they got new fanbases.

And...how big is rock music now, really? Who are the big faces? Ghost? Steel Panther? Both bands trade heavily on appearance and one is straight parody.

There's an easy argument to make that his theatrics are right at home there, but...maybe Bill also thinks it isn't worth holding onto that audience anymore.

I'm not out to convince anyone these songs are good. They feel underwritten and, yes, formulaic. But if what he wants is to move away from big arena rock music...I kinda have a hard time blaming him.

Just musing in the dark while my power's out.

[Shadaloo]

I don't know man...Monuments to an Elegy still sounds like a borefest to my ears. Oceania, on the other hand, felt great for me since the first spin.

Monuments is the one I truly hate, but even that seems to have its fans. I feel like it's exactly the sound of Billy imitating himself and I loathe it.

Oceania was largely the result of a painful breakup, and I would agree that it's the best 'recent' effort. I still think Zeitgeist with all bonus tracks is solid...but that's not recent anymore.

[DVYDRNS]

nobody thinks Wild Mood Swings is a good Cure album


Uh. I love it. also I love Bloodflowers.

[Shadaloo]

Uh. I love it. also I love Bloodflowers.


Those two things are not remotely the same. :(

And 'an album I like' and 'a good X band album' aren't the same thing. I know this because I also enjoy Fear Factory's Transgression.

And Manson's High End Of Low.

And Bowie's Never Let me down.

Point in fact I'd wager there isn't a single one of us on this board that doesn't love a commonly reviled album.

[allegro]

The dude doesn't know how to write a good song anymore. Whatever talent he HAD, is long gone. I don't think he could write another 'bullet with butterfly wings' or straight ahead rock song even if he wanted to.

Many artists can move in and out of different genres, successfully. Billy isn’t one of them. He’s run out of ideas. And it appears to be because he’s not objective about his material; he thinks everything he poops is brilliant, and if people don’t like it, they just don’t “get” it.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

If Billzebub had stuck to standard rock, had never shot for the electrogoth Adore atmosphere, the cyberprog of the Machinas, the faux-psychedelia of Teargarden, the..whatever the fuck Monuments was, and now this...would anyone still be talking about his music?

Or would it be more like U2, Pearl Jam, where an album comes out and it's basically "yep, sure is another unremarkable U2 album" and then everyone forgets about it the next month?



Thats where you are lost. NOBODY is talking about Billy's new music anymore, unless its to shit on it. He doesn't move the needle anymore. He probably thought the Pumpkins reunion would lead to selling out stadiums like the GNR reunion, meanwhile most of the arena dates featured lots of empty seats. Nobody cares (except you). His albums come and go and are forgotten about within 2 weeks. He goes on Howard Stern last year to promote a new album and Stern spent the entire interview requesting songs from Mellon Collie lmao. In 1995 Billy boy thought he was going to slot in and replace Kurt as the voice of a generation....And now he is what he always feared he would become. Washed up and forgotten.....And it kills him....He spent half the Stern interview ranting and raving about how it drives him crazy the Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam are huge. Hes clearly jealous. He so desperately wanted to be Kurt Cobain.

[sonic_discord]

For someone that loved all of their earlier work, I keep hearing Oceania is a good one to jump into regarding their new material, that accurate? I stopped paying attention after the Kaleidoscope EP's.

I will always come to Oceania's defense, it's a fantastically underrated album, as far as I'm concerned. Give it a chance and allow it to sink in, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I personally think it's the best of their post-breakup material. It really re-captures some of that classic SP feel.

[neorev]

But you want him to succeed on your terms, making straight rock music; all those are examples of songs that use the traditional guitar/bass/drums. And you're talking about Jimmy going wild on drums and Billy doing solos and riffs and...



There you go. That's why you don't like it.

I'm sitting here, and I'm remembering stuff like Eye, Pug, The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning, Saturnine, Blissed and Gone, the covers of Destination Unknown, Isolation. This stuff has precedent.

And all of the above songs work just fine live, from all the performances I've seen where they were played, those that were, as did TheFutureEmbrace tracks (And for a good example of how he can change things up, check out his acoustic performance of Now And Then on the Ogilala tour)



Like Machina was the worst thing he's ever done. Like Mary Star Of The Sea. Like Zeitgeist. Teargarden. Oceania. Monuments. No Past No Future No Sun. Here we are.

It's the same shit every single time he puts out an album, and I'm just...tired of it. This stuff sure ain't up to classic SP levels, but we're nowhere near "Widow Wake My Mind" or "Owata" areas of terrible cheesy awfulness.



Because he spent years having people go, as you put it, tell him to "Play Cherub Rock". So he did. He trotted out all the hits, he made it a great big parody spectacle, because you tell him to do something and he throws it back in your face. It's the way the guy's always operated. You want them to be a rock band? Boom. "Stairway to Heaven." HERE-IS-EXACTLY-WHAT-YOU-WANT.

It will never be 1995 again, and as much as people like to defend themselves and say "I don't want them to do SD or MCIS again" they still want them to do that type of music. To jam, to go on 25 minute rock solos.

Flashback: 2007. Goassamer. He did. And people told him it sucked.

Granted, he is over-sensitive; the whole reason ChicagoKid got shelved was because people on the internet complained it wasn't rock music. And that was stupid.

But that was 2004 or so. At this point, If I was him, getting the same reactions after all these years, I'd tell my old fanbase to go fuck themselves, too.


You know what I'm reminded of? Mechanical Animals and Kid A. Not that I'm saying that this will in any way be comparable to how time has looked fondly on those albums, but...I've been here before. "What is this electronic shit?" "What is this glam rock shit"?

Well, no reward without risk. I sincerely do hope this album succeeds.

There is a little problem with your assertion. I'm an electronic music fan, even moreso than rock. This is lifeless electronic music. I literally make electronic music. My music collection is 75-80% electronic music. It takes a lot for a pure rock band to do something for me. A lot of the rock I do like has electronic elements mixed in. I'm someone whose favorite SP album is Adore, whose favorite Radiohead album is Kid A, whose favorite Manson album is MA. The problem with your Kid A and Mechanical Animals comparison is those albums are praised and actually good. Billy hasn't made a Kid A. I wish he did. Sure, those albums may have turned some classic fans off, but ultimately the greatness of the album shined through and they were widely praised. Whereas with Billy, it's fans disliking it and the albums simply getting no outside praise because they're not new or groundbreaking. Simply put, they're not great albums. I was a Radiohead fan since Creep who flipping loves Kid A. I was never a huge Manson, but prefer Mechanical Animals out of all his albums. But he hasn't done another MA and mostly repeats himself now. I'm all for changing up your style and trying something new... if it's good.

But with Billy's latest, this is just shit electronic music.

I'm not looking for Billy to make some grand rock record. I just want him to make a good record that makes me feel something... anything. Well, not hate and disgust and boredom. These songs are so lifeless and meandering. They just plod along with barely any build up or momentum. They don't go anywhere. I feel nothing from these songs. There is no sense of urgency. They're the equivalent of musical wallpaper. Perhaps the local Starbucks will put these on. Billy's flowery prose feels pretentious and disingenuous. It sounds like music from someone who has nothing to say. For me, SP were more about the music than Billy's voice. But the music now is subpar with Billy's voice front and center. And he's spouting some pretentious mad libs. Machina was an okay album while Machina II had better tracks, but both fucked by crap production. I prefer over Zeitgeist over Machina. Oceania is alright. Kinda dips in the middle. Monuments was too repetitive, but at least it had structure. Shiny's main problem was being over produced and not letting the band shine through. But this new material is just so artificial and soulless. Perhaps fame has left him with nothing to say. At least with his previous albums, there were a couple of tracks that made me feel something. Superchrist, United States, Bleeding The Orchid, Astral Planes, The Fellowship, Quasar, Inkless (the original mix), Tiberius, Monuments, etc. I didn't really like Zwan. More of Billy's floweriness. So far the new album has been 6 tracks that all bleed together.

I'm sorry, but these songs are Grade A dog shit. I don't need Billy to rock, I need music that makes me feel something. These songs are over produced meandering 3 minutes of paint drying.

Billy did prove me wrong. I thought he couldn't get any worse. I return to Billy when he has a new album hoping he can wow me and make me feel something again. But these new songs... wow, he's gone to epic level of suck. Billy can do whatever he wants. It doesn't change the fact if something sucks, it sucks. Congrats, Billy! You did what you wanted and it blew.

Also, perhaps the reason keep calling his newer music shit because it really is just not that amazing or groundbreaking? I mean, that very well could be a possibility. What? It's everyone else who is wrong? Perhaps the newer music is just not that good and doesn't connect with people like his other stuff.

I'd love to hear Billy's Kid A. But I can tell you that Aegea was not that. ;)

[neorev]

Starting to think Shadaloo is Billy's burner account. It has nothing to do with him experimenting. It has to do with him sucking. The dude doesn't know how to write a good song anymore. Whatever talent he HAD, is long gone. I don't think he could write another 'bullet with butterfly wings' or straight ahead rock song even if he wanted to. Its over for Billy boy. The carcass that is the Smashing Pumpkins is laying in the middle of the road for all to see. Now we all just want to glance at the dead body before the flies and vultures pick it clean

https://media.tenor.com/images/c3d1320cc434373ed81d20f7a115f52f/tenor.gif

Thank you! I don't know how many other ways I can explain this. The new music is just shit.


I have no problem with more electronic stuff from them, Adore is maybe my favorite SP record even. These songs just suck. All of them feel lifeless, plodding and forgettable. I remember part of Cyr and that’s it despite having listened to every single track released so far. I have a feeling that the whole album is going to be like these, 20 songs that blur together and go nowhere and not a single track with any semi-relatable or human lyrics.

Billy’s always done some ridiculous shit in the past, but there was a balance to it — the weird titles were sprinkled in, the more flowery writing would get contrasted by incredibly direct and emotional stuff, there was a diversity to it all that feels completely absent from this. If you’re going to get the band back together, get them back together, don’t just use them for marketing purposes. There’s no reason for Jimmy or James to be in this band at this point other than the touring money must be good.

https://media.tenor.com/images/99b7f14f480214a0cbd244879cc2d32f/tenor.gif

I'm starting to think Jimmy and James are simply a marketing ploy to sucker us into hearing more Billy solo albums.

I'd love to hear Jimmy or James, please.

I'm starting to wish we could get a Smashing Pumpkins with Chino Moreno on vocals instead of Billy.

[neorev]

Remember when Billy thought he was a modular synth virtuoso and made generic bleep bloop drone music any modular beginner could make. Siddhartha was probably one of the most pretentious, self indulgent things he's done. Then to try to hock it as an overpriced vinyl boxset with a truck cat and $50 Stylophone synth you could buy anywhere. By the way, he still had hundreds of copies left.


https://youtu.be/C3tV8n-CVnA


I wonder if Billy thought Aegea was gonna be his Kid A?


https://youtu.be/URu1goei7dg

[WorzelG]

Remember when Billy thought he was a modular synth virtuoso and made generic bleep bloop drone music any modular beginner could make. Siddhartha was probably one of the most pretentious, self indulgent things he's done. Then to try to hock it as an overpriced vinyl boxset with a truck cat and $50 Stylophone synth you could buy anywhere. By the way, he still had hundreds of copies left.


https://youtu.be/C3tV8n-CVnA


I wonder if Billy thought Aegea was gonna be his Kid A?


https://youtu.be/URu1goei7dg
Jesus Christ, that Aegea sounds like the synth music by Ross in Friends except it clearly goes on interminably! Imagine trying to have a cup of tea with that Siddhartha shit going on?


https://youtu.be/yLa8Br569gA

[Shadaloo]

NOBODY is talking about Billy's new music anymore, unless its to shit on it. He doesn't move the needle anymore. He probably thought the Pumpkins reunion would lead to selling out stadiums like the GNR reunion, meanwhile most of the arena dates featured lots of empty seats. Nobody cares (except you). His albums come and go and are forgotten about within 2 weeks. He goes on Howard Stern last year to promote a new album and Stern spent the entire interview requesting songs from Mellon Collie lmao. In 1995 Billy boy thought he was going to slot in and replace Kurt as the voice of a generation....And now he is what he always feared he would become. Washed up and forgotten.....And it kills him....He spent half the Stern interview ranting and raving about how it drives him crazy the Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam are huge. Hes clearly jealous. He so desperately wanted to be Kurt Cobain.

Yeah, we're not having a discussion about the pros and cons of their last few albums here, debating what the high and low points are. There are no threads on Netphoria, or the SP Reddit, about the new albums. Nobody in the last few pages of this thread has brought up Oceania as a good point of their recent discography.

They didn't sell out of CDs at the SP store.

Yeah, there's been a lot of negative feedback about the new album's sound, but there's a saying, "All press is good press."

Now please stop talking, Adrian Toomes. Go rob a bank and pick a fight with Spider-Man.

[fillow]

Like I said the last time, three persistent haters make it look like they're the majority. I loved the SP2.0 records and I liked the first two new songs too, but I'm not gonna go on a crusade to defend WPC, he's doing just fine without me. I'm gonna wait for the full album to drop (or drip) before I listen to the rest.

[Shadaloo]

The problem with your Kid A and Mechanical Animals comparison is those albums are praised and actually good.

You are missing my point; I'm not comparing the new music to Kid A, not by a long shot. I'm talking about the shift in direction and the reaction people are having to it, that's all. Including your own "It's too electronic." Again, all the songs you listed are songs that are predominantly rock-oriented; there's not a single number like TBITEITB in them, so it just really seems like you feel the most from them when they're doing what they do best, which, of course, is rock. It IS their strength.

And come on, there really is no comparing Aagea and Siddhartha to this; that's a false equivalency and you know it. That's him fucking around in his tea shop with synths and not producing a full album with the SP name behind it.

But:


As long as I don't have to pay for the piece of shit

It just seems painfully cringe includingly fake to me... like Billy's spirituality.

Hate and disgust and boredom.

Grade A dog shit

....you've had 2 Netphoria avatars recently, the first being that horrible, horrible Billy Fetus image, and now you've changed it (thank you) to an awful, sad looking picture of him wearing that ridiculous clown makeup. I look at those, and I look at the way you seem to talk about Billy...and I can't help but wonder whether if how you feel about him as a person isn't maybe influencing the way you're receiving this music a little bit. I don't mean to get into your head or anything, but it's clearly pretty heavily vitriolic.

Or maybe you're just that disappointed it makes you that angry. I can empathize. But it isn't worth it.

It's fine to have expectations, to want his music to make you feel something. I do too. But I deduced a long time ago that the Billy that could write a fistful of songs that could really punch me in the gut no longer exists, any more than TDS-era Trent does.

Remember what Trent said when he was talking about how he was looking back on that era? "I remember that guy." It's the same thing here.

It's funny, between you and me, I honestly couldn't say who has more hope, if any, for Billy to be able to write great stuff again...I don't know which of us has given up more.


Also, perhaps the reason keep calling his newer music shit because it really is just not that amazing or groundbreaking? I mean, that very well could be a possibility. What? It's everyone else who is wrong? Perhaps the newer music is just not that good and doesn't connect with people like his other stuff.

What "everyone else" thinks (and that's bullshit, because from what I'm seeing the reactions are mixed, as they always are: confused, negative to pleasantly surprised; I could go through a list of albums dating back to MCIS of there being a bunch of songs everyone hates, off every album) is unimportant to me.

About five years ago I nearly got hit by a car because I blindly followed a jaywalker across the street, paying half-attention. It was a minor incident, but it got me thinking about "what I do because other people do it". That got me to rely more on my own brain first and foremost. Other opinions can be, and usually are, interesting or informative to read, but at the end of the day, I make my own decisions, especially when it comes to what music I enjoy.

Now, I don't disagree with his newer music not being up to snuff all the time. Cotiillions, Ogilala, Shiny V1...those are all really hit-and-miss albums for me; typically half-decent, half-blah, with a few odd numbers scattered on each I'd call great. What I disagree with is the persistent bullshit narrative - And I am not saying you espouse this - that every album is somehow worse than the last. If that were true, you wouldn't have people here referring to Oceania as a high point. I maintain Monuments is the nadir, the absolute worst dreck, the sound of Billy not knowing what the fuck to do with his music or the SP name. THAT sounds like a Billy solo album to me. This...doesn't, not completely.

Being amazing or groundbreaking would be nice, but all I'm asking at this point is for the occasional nice song that has some lyrics I can relate to.

And on that note:

https://i.imgur.com/KFEFy5D.png

If you read those lyrics and you can''t see he's literally talking about how his fanbase has grown away from him, and how he's asking to be accepted as the person he is and not who he used to be...I don't know what to tell you.

Maybe I'm used to interpreting his lyrics. I've been doing it going on over 20 years, whenever an album comes out. I know that the shit he writes now is often indecipherable - if he hadn't said Oceania was about a breakup in an interview or Pale Horse was about his mom, I would never have known.

But not here, not this one. I read that and god help me, I actually do feel some kind of weird empathy and a little bit of sadness.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Like I said the last time, three persistent haters make it look like they're the majority.

Empty arenas make it look like the failure it is.....The majority have spoken....

[Lerxto]

The problem with current SP is Billy can't handle someone saying no to him, so he surrounds himself with yes-men.
Just give songs room to breathe, so James, Jeff and Jimmy can actually contribute things. And listen to your fans.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VPzyJFzpzg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsOClTnZoOw

Ogilala & Shiny could've been a solid SP album. But instead we got good songs buried under the WPC moniker, and over-produced, criminally short Shiny EP disguised as an LP. Typical.

Then comes CYR.
I'm sure there were some good ones when Billy first announced he wrote 24 songs for Shiny 2. Then 4 got dropped, and I bet among those 4 were the ones he should've kept.
Then he worked so hard to butcher the remaining 20 with his horrid production.
Wait for the whole album, there's diversity, it's not a new wave synth-pop record, he said. Even compared it to 1979/MCIS.
We've heard 6 out of 20 now. So far, sounds exactly like that, and a shitty one.

Of course, he's blaming the fans for not getting it. Well, fuck you. I get it, your "fans" hated Adore and Machina then and loves it now.
But from Teargarden onwards you've only got yourself to blame, man.
Where's Burnt Orange-Black? Cardinal Rule? Double R? Red Dirt?
Flashback to Zeitgeist/Teargarden. As Rome Burns, Lonely is the Name, Dream Machine, some residency songs & Gossamer etc.
Praised by fans, never recorded in the studio or remains unreleased.
Reviews for Oceania was good. Then he fired Nicole and poor Mike, released Monuments. Next one was Day For Night.
Stop making stupid decisions, then we'll talk nicely.

[neorev]

You are missing my point; I'm not comparing the new music to Kid A, not by a long shot. I'm talking about the shift in direction and the reaction people are having to it, that's all. Including your own "It's too electronic." Again, all the songs you listed are songs that are predominantly rock-oriented; there's not a single number like TBITEITB in them, so it just really seems like you feel the most from them when they're doing what they do best, which, of course, is rock. It IS their strength.

And come on, there really is no comparing Aagea and Siddhartha to this; that's a false equivalency and you know it. That's him fucking around in his tea shop with synths and not producing a full album with the SP name behind it.

I didn't mention TBITEITB because you specifically mentioned people bashing SP2.0 material. That's why I didn't mention Adore tracks or Machina tracks. I listed tracks from Zeitgeist on aka SP2.0. I literally said Adore is my favorite SP album, so obviously I would love tracks from that album and not have to mention them. By the way, I also listed my personal Adore playlist, and guess what? My playlist is made up of the more electronic tracks. I loved Adore since the day it came out. Adore felt like a step forward. So your "gotcha" moment went poof.

Machina was the beginning of the end. Billy trying to recapture the band and failing. A step backwards trying to create another double album opus. Then he just went off the walls since. Billy needs someone who knows when to scrap a crap track instead of yes men. Billy made more good electronic music with Flood and Matt Walker's involvement. On his own, not so much. I'll give him Eye. Though I dislike the alt version/remix on the Adore reissue and prefer the Lost Highway version. Good ol Billy taking a great track and making it worse. Lost Highway version/mix is superior. This is why I have little faith in Machina being remixed.

[neorev]

....you've had 2 Netphoria avatars recently, the first being that horrible, horrible Billy Fetus image, and now you've changed it (thank you) to an awful, sad looking picture of him wearing that ridiculous clown makeup. I look at those, and I look at the way you seem to talk about Billy...and I can't help but wonder whether if how you feel about him as a person isn't maybe influencing the way you're receiving this music a little bit. I don't mean to get into your head or anything, but it's clearly pretty heavily vitriolic.

Or maybe you're just that disappointed it makes you that angry. I can empathize. But it isn't worth it.

It's fine to have expectations, to want his music to make you feel something. I do too. But I deduced a long time ago that the Billy that could write a fistful of songs that could really punch me in the gut no longer exists, any more than TDS-era Trent does.

Remember what Trent said when he was talking about how he was looking back on that era? "I remember that guy." It's the same thing here.

It's funny, between you and me, I honestly couldn't say who has more hope, if any, for Billy to be able to write great stuff again...I don't know which of us has given up more.

Except Trent has made post TDS material that hit me in the gut. And it didn't need to be TDS to make me feel something.

I use those avatars because that is what Billy has become. Billy fetus = his pretentiousness and Billy's old clown make up face. Honestly, if anyone made me dislike Billy, it was Billy. He used the reissues to shit on the rest of the band. He constantly gets caught trying to rewrite history. I've watched him literally shit on fans while they were praising his work.

But that does change the fact that he is making shitty music. When I say too electronic, I mean it's so rigid and artificial and devoid of soul. Even his vocals have lost any sense of emotion in them.

Plus, I've had plenty of bands who I love from the 90s who made newer music that made me feel what I felt when I first loved them. There are lots of long lasting artists still making good music. But Billy ain't it.

Gore is one my favorite Deftones albums. I'm actually a little disappointed with Ohms because it retreads old territory too much. I prefer the songs where the synths are cranked up. My favorite Chino side project is Crosses, his electronic project.

The new Hum album is awesome.

I'm a huge fan of The Prodigy, and their last album No Tourists was the best thing they've done since their original trilogy of greatness.

I'm a huge Chemical Brothers fan, and their last album No Geography was the best thing they've done since their original trilogy of greatness.

Underworld's Drift Series 1 was the best thing they've done since their original trilogy of greatness.

I've been a huge Orbital fan since Snivilisation, and my favorite album is Wonky, the album before their latest.

There are plenty of artists from the 90s still making great music.

Billy wishes he could be Trent. Trent's at least still got something left to say and can make something good and emotional. Has Trent done stuff I didn't like? Sure. I wasn't a fan of Hesitation Marks. But I loved the trilogy though. I'm a huge With Teeth fan.

Again, this isn't about Billy recreating his glory days, but about making new music that's actually exciting and makes you feel something... besides emptiness and boredom and wanting to press the skip button.

[GulDukat]

Some of you guys really need to get a life. You put wayyy too much mental energy into berating Billy Corgan.

Come on down to the Star Trek thread (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/2945-Star-Trek-Series-and-Films). We need more heated discussion there.

[neorev]

Some of you guys really need to get a life. You put wayyy too much mental energy into berating Billy Corgan.

Come on down to the Star Trek thread (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/2945-Star-Trek-Series-and-Films). We need more heated discussion there.

You tell folks to get a life... then say to go participate in a Star Trek thread. Star Trek is kinda the opposite of getting a life.
;)

Didn't Star Trek die along with Star Wars?
:p

[GulDukat]

You tell folks to get a life... then say to go participate in a Star Trek thread. Star Trek is kinda the opposite of getting a life.

Star Trek died along with Star Wars.

:p It was a joke man. Not on this board, but on some of the Facebook groups, Star Trek fans are pretty insufferable.

[eversonpoe]

he thinks everything he poops is brilliant

giggling incessantly over here

[neorev]

The problem with current SP is Billy can't handle someone saying no to him, so he surrounds himself with yes-men.
Just give songs room to breathe, so James, Jeff and Jimmy can actually contribute things. And listen to your fans.

Ogilala & Shiny could've been a solid SP album. But instead we got good songs buried under the WPC moniker, and over-produced, criminally short Shiny EP disguised as an LP. Typical.

Then comes CYR.
I'm sure there were some good ones when Billy first announced he wrote 24 songs for Shiny 2. Then 4 got dropped, and I bet among those 4 were the ones he should've kept.
Then he worked so hard to butcher the remaining 20 with his horrid production.
Wait for the whole album, there's diversity, it's not a new wave synth-pop record, he said. Even compared it to 1979/MCIS.
We've heard 6 out of 20 now. So far, sounds exactly like that, and a shitty one.

Of course, he's blaming the fans for not getting it. Well, fuck you. I get it, your "fans" hated Adore and Machina then and loves it now.
But from Teargarden onwards you've only got yourself to blame, man.
Where's Burnt Orange-Black? Cardinal Rule? Double R? Red Dirt?
Flashback to Zeitgeist/Teargarden. As Rome Burns, Lonely is the Name, Dream Machine, some residency songs & Gossamer etc.
Praised by fans, never recorded in the studio or remains unreleased.
Reviews for Oceania was good. Then he fired Nicole and poor Mike, released Monuments. Next one was Day For Night.
Stop making stupid decisions, then we'll talk nicely.

Yea, Lonely Is The Name sounded quite promising.
I've actually had convos with Billy thru PM on Instagram about this song and he was dismissive as usual.
The only time Billy responded positively was if I praised something more recent or a moment where he feels he proved the critics wrong or simply bashing the press.

And even in the midst of that praise, he always has to turn it to something negative. Such as when I mentioned Superchrist and the AOL Sessions performance, which he positively responded with, "That's the bomb, that." But then he had to say "From a band the press said was a rent a band, no less." I stopped chatting with him cuz he always seemed to turn everything into a negative. He definitely has a chip on his shoulder. He pretends to be above it all. I've been lucky to have convos with a few well known artists. And, honestly, he was the worse. There's a very fine line of topics with him.

On another note...
When I asked about why reissues like Aeroplane and Adore didn't get a 24 bit release like all the other reissues, he said "I think the market just isn't there." Meanwhile Amazon has launched a lossless/hi-res streaming services and digital stores opening and Monument even got a 24 bit release. So he's always making stupid decisions, such as not releasing the tracks you mentioned.

[poinoup]

Add me to the "Adore is my favorite" list. But dat Aeroplane box...

Personally, I started to fall out with Shiny. It was awesome to see them on the reunion tour, and Calgary was pretty much a full house. You could see the floor hyped for the encore, growing in anticipation, and then "Solara" hit, and a lot of peeps started to leave. "Baby Mine" helped kill the mood even more as everyone left. There was no energy after the show. I could get to the merch booth far easier at the end. They're getting my money for shirts.

I found the bootleg of the return show, I was so damn happy about Zeitgeist. But then I heard it, and the mixing of Billy to the front at all times, plus the Billy chorus, was overkill. I thought the original Gossamer was enough, but it just kept going. I thought the American Gothic EP was pretty damn good. Teargarden was hit or miss, and Oceania had some great stuff on it. Songs like "Pale Horse" and "Pinwheels" just hit that right frequency with me.

Then came Monuments, and "Tiberius" and "Being Beige" were the only ones I could salvage off there. There were a few highlights on Shiny, but it was just...there.

I can understand that it's not 1995 anymore, and Billy isn't still "Fuck you, world!", and that he's doing what we wants. I always joke that I want my celebrities to act extra pretentious and out of their minds, but Billy seems to take the former to such a level it becomes a parody of itself.

I might not have the same views on the world, but that doesn't mean I hate the man. The Pumpkins were a huge part of my high school years. Adore was the perfect album in summer 98...foolish teenage love.

Now, onto these new songs. I thought "Cyr" was alright, but everything else has done nothing for me. The songs are just...there. I find them pretty dull and lifeless, but Bill and co. are not out there to cater to my, and only my, tastes. If you dig em, right on, ain't nothing wrong with that. It's just weird to not feel a great anticipation for a new album, after a few decades.

1) Ok, I ranted whilst stoned enough.
2) I hope no one takes this as an attack or anything. Not intended in any way.

[WorzelG]

Sometimes I think Billy Corgan is a bit narcissistic. I listen to this podcast, Riot Act and in this one they discuss the Smashing Pumpkins at Wembley on their big comeback tour in 2018 and it sounds deranged. A beautiful woman praying to a deity figure resembling Billy Corgan? Billy Corgan big face everywhere (even though he’s not a looker!). Also did it happen on the US tour that they managed to cherry pick old footage that practically erased Darcy from the band?

the discussion starts at 16mins and it’s not completely negative but very funny!
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/riot-act/id1417888519?i=1000422169481

[allegro]

he said [I]"I think the market just isn't there."

This from the guy who spent 8 straight hours at his tea house noodling around doing a ridiculously wanky interpretation of Hesse's "Siddhartha. (https://www.vice.com/en/article/ry4zy6/we-watched-billy-corgan-play-an-eight-hour-freeform-synthesizer-interpretation-of-siddartha)" <- This is one of the funniest articles I’ve EVER READ!!


This is Billy Corgan's safe place, where no one, not even strangers, will tell him "No."

[allegro]

And even in the midst of that praise, he always has to turn it to something negative. Such as when I mentioned Superchrist and the AOL Sessions performance, which he positively responded with, "That's the bomb, that." But then he had to say "From a band the press said was a rent a band, no less." I stopped chatting with him cuz he always seemed to turn everything into a negative. He definitely has a chip on his shoulder. He pretends to be above it all. I've been lucky to have convos with a few well known artists. And, honestly, he was the worse. There's a very fine line of topics with him.


You know, this bugs me. Because here in Chicago during that period, Billy and the Smashing Pumpkins were getting a LOT more positive press (or ANY press) than a lot of other deserving Chicago bands, and it caused a decent amount of friction and shit here in Chicago at the time.

A lot of people, now, either don’t know or forget that Chicago was much bigger than Seattle as far as being a fertile music scene. There was an explosion of music, here, that started in the late-80s and continued well into the 90s and spawned tons of bands and genres. It was a crazy and awesome time to be alive and a Chicagoan.

Billy became the darling of Joe Shanahan who owns what was the Cabaret Metro venue in Chicago (now the Metro), and Shanahan began booking the Pumpkins fairly regularly and Billy could use Shanahan as leverage behind his label-hunting ambitions. The Pumpkins received NO bad press in Chicago at the time; at least, none that I can recall, other than the reports of jealous consternation from other Chicago bands as to the preference and favors that Billy was receiving from Shanahan. I suspect, like you said, this attitude is just Billy’s (er, Williampatrickcorgan’s) giant chip on his shoulder talking.

At the time and even years later, it seemed like the only Chicago artist who publicly had anything to do with Billy around here was Liz Phair, because of that jealousy over all the good press and favors that the other artists perceived that Billy was getting. Lots of that was unfair, sure. But, come on; that was 28 years ago. Any "rent-a-band" characterization was something he, himself, created due to his being a known control freak, and this isn't even a "characterization;" it's a reality.

Here is a good article: https://music.avclub.com/a-great-time-to-be-alive-and-own-a-guitar-chicago-s-1798261063


[Chicago Tribune Music Critic] Greg Kot: The Pumpkins were percolating for a long time. You’d hear a lot of whispering going on—and sometimes it wasn’t whispering, sometimes it was just very loud protests—like, “Who are these guys? How dare they get these slots on these Metro shows?” But Corgan was writing songs. What was it about these certain bands? It was all about getting radio songs. The mainstream music industry really hadn’t changed that much. It was still about getting a single on commercial radio. What changed was, Corgan could write songs that could get on the radio. He was writing very well-produced, single-ready type of music. He was also making very accomplished albums. I’m not one of those Pumpkins nay-sayers. I think the music was extremely evolved and well-done, and the singles were quite good. They deserved to be hits.

But the difference between a Smashing Pumpkins and a great band like Eleventh Dream Day is that Corgan knew how to play the game. He knew how to deliver singles. He was perfectly willing to work with a big label to help him move that along, whereas some of these more indie-oriented bands, I mean, Eleventh Dream Day and bands of that ilk were coming out of the whole punk and post-punk scenes and they were very much skeptical. They admired bands like The Minutemen and Hüsker Dü. Those were their role models. They weren’t looking to be commercial hits; they just assumed they would be playing clubs, and it was kind of a surprise that they were signed to a label.

Whereas Billy Corgan—that was his ambition all along and he made no bones about it and it was pilloried for it. He was blatantly ambitious and blatantly wanted to be signed to a major label and blatantly wanted his songs on the radio. And that was anathema to a lot of Chicagoans, who said, “It’s not cool, you’re not indie.” So there was that tension in Chicago all through this, like, “How much do we sell out? Do we sell out at all? Are we selling out if we do this?” You’d have those arguments all the time.

[fillow]

LOL. Imagine Billy reading this thread and not turning negative.

[allegro]

LOL. Imagine Billy reading this thread and not turning negative.

Heh that’s fair. But a good amount of it is his own fault.

[Piko]

I think biggest issue with Billy is that he's a try hard and a very insecure one. He could probably put out an amazing album, still. He won't though. Instead of making the best album he could possibly make, instead he dwells more on how other people will receive it.

He's the guy who scrapped an entire album because the previous one didn't get the reviews he wanted.

[allegro]

I think biggest issue with Billy is that he's a try hard and a very insecure one. He could probably put out an amazing album, still. He won't though. Instead of making the best album he could possibly make, instead he dwells more on how other people will receive it.

Is he, though? Putting out this pablum, it seems like he’s actually thumbing his nose at any of that and ramming full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes, and putting out stuff that he thinks is brilliant (self-indulgent).

Scrapping an album: Yes, he's also vindictive. "You all didn't appreciate my LAST album? You won't get this new one, fuck off."

[Shadaloo]

Because the only one I found was 192 kbps, I'm doing a new lossless audio rip of If All Goes Wrong. PM me you want in on this, because right now I think we all need some manner of coping mechanism

[Shadaloo]

Sometimes I think Billy Corgan is a bit narcissistic. I listen to this podcast, Riot Act and in this one they discuss the Smashing Pumpkins at Wembley on their big comeback tour in 2018 and it sounds deranged. A beautiful woman praying to a deity figure resembling Billy Corgan? Billy Corgan big face everywhere (even though he’s not a looker!). Also did it happen on the US tour that they managed to cherry pick old footage that practically erased Darcy from the band?

He absolutely has narcissistic personality disorder. He's aware of it to some degree; the "St. Corgan" footage was supposed to be a huge sendup of himself as some sort of rock god, IIRC. He knows when to make fun of it, but he's never been able to take any kind of criticism well. "Nobody believes I wrote a three star record!"

The fact that on Joe Rogan he actually acknowledged that his recent albums weren't up to par with his classics to some degree was mindblowing. I'd never seen him do that before.

D'Arcy was completely erased from the music video footage played on the big screens during the tour, yes. This is right after they had their blowup with Alternative Nation posting their texts where it was shown Billy didn't have enough faith in her ability to play full time again due to a shoulder injury she'd sustained. It's probably just as likely he didn't want to deal with her refusal to take shit.

If anyone wants a really good article which I hope outlines why I'm happy he's regularly putting out music again, consider this article, which is amazing:

A Brief History Of Billy Corgan Losing His Goddamn Mind (https://www.vice.com/en/article/rjny7r/a-brief-history-of-billy-corgan-losing-his-goddamn-mind)

[allegro]

^ OMG I’d forgotten about Tila Tequila :D

[r_z]

That Rogan Interview was actually pretty good. BC seemed very relaxed and opened up about a lot of stuff.

[WorzelG]

He absolutely has narcissistic personality disorder. He's aware of it to some degree; the "St. Corgan" footage was supposed to be a huge sendup of himself as some sort of rock god, IIRC. He knows when to make fun of it, but he's never been able to take any kind of criticism well. "Nobody believes I wrote a three star record!"

The fact that on Joe Rogan he actually acknowledged that his recent albums weren't up to par with his classics to some degree was mindblowing. I'd never seen him do that before.

D'Arcy was completely erased from the music video footage played on the big screens during the tour, yes. This is right after they had their blowup with Alternative Nation posting their texts where it was shown Billy didn't have enough faith in her ability to play full time again due to a shoulder injury she'd sustained. It's probably just as likely he didn't want to deal with her refusal to take shit.

If anyone wants a really good article which I hope outlines why I'm happy he's regularly putting out music again, consider this article, which is amazing:

A Brief History Of Billy Corgan Losing His Goddamn Mind (https://www.vice.com/en/article/rjny7r/a-brief-history-of-billy-corgan-losing-his-goddamn-mind)
Ha, I read that article at the time. Fantastic. Billy Corgan should have his own sitcom, it would be funnier than the Osbornes.

the thing is, I’m not coming from a place of hate. I never got into the Pumpkins at the time, my grunge of choice (yes I know SP isn’t grunge) was Alice in Chains - I saw them in a small student venue in Manchester in 1990 or 1991 and it was amazing. I always thought Nirvana was massively overrated, I liked Soundgarden too. I got a Smashing Pumpkins greatest hits CD Rotten Apples because people here, whose opinion I respect, liked them so much and I loved the songs but Billy’s voice - no!

Billy should be happy with the acclaim he has, so much music I loved growing up, particularly 80s synth pop was absolutely hated by the British music press. He’s lucky he was American, if he was British he’d be eviscerated by a load of fucks for being successful. So I find it hard to have that much sympathy.

[poinoup]

It feels like forever ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeT_dfAJv-Y

Still makes me laugh.

[Prettybrokenspiral]

I remember when Billy put ads in several Chicago newspapers announcing the return of SP on literally the same day his (surprisingly decent) first solo album came out..

It seemed like absolute lunacy and an ideal way to ensure literally nobody cared about your brand new solo record, until Trent did the same thing about a decade later when he announced the return of NIN on the same day HTDA released their debut album, lmao..

[Failure]

It seemed like absolute lunacy and an ideal way to ensure literally nobody cared about your brand new solo record, until Trent did the same thing about a decade later when he announced the return of NIN on the same day HTDA released their debut album, lmao..

Pure lunacy!