Controversial Nine Inch Nails opinions

[Janus3659]

It's been a really long time since I've actually posted something on here (minus a quick question), and truthfully I was never a big poster in the first place. Lurking here always fascinated me a little because of the usually rather strong opinions presented. I think this thread is a great idea for that reason, and I've always kinda wanted to just say some things like:

-Why the "Deep" hatred? Granted, it's not the best NIN song ever... but I remember listening to it when it first came out and enjoying it. I pop online, most people really didn't like it. I also remember a very strong reaction to the video... it was different. :-)

-I've never been a huge PHM fan. It is honestly my least favorite NIN album, far and away. HLAH is good; I enjoy Terrible Lie now, I think mostly because of live performances. Sin is probably my favorite track for reasons I truthfully can't explain. But you can pretty much keep the rest of it. Something I Can Never Have is a very powerful song but it almost makes me cringe to listen to it; not because it is a bad song but it's just a little too, IDK, raw. Down In It... meh. Sanctified is a track I loathe for reasons, again, I can't really explain. I just hate it. Kinda I Want To I enjoy now I think because I used to skip it every single time for years. That's What I Get, The Only Time and Ringfinger - meh again. Maybe it's the synthpop 80's feel... I'm just not a huge fan now or when I first started listening to NIN back in 1998.

-I love The Fragile. Random aside that will come back around: I'm not exactly surrounded by NIN fans where I live. In fact, there aren't any except for the person who really inspired me to listen in the first place. I've always geeked out by myself. I've had friends join me at concerts and respect some of the lesser known tracks but I'm full on fanboy among mere "I like Closer" types usually. I started listening for two reasons - my group of friends got deep into Marilyn Manson right around when Antichrist Superstar first came out and obviously you make the NIN connection there. The other being the aforementioned person. So, I pick up Broken and Further Down the Spiral as they were the only two albums in stock. I'd never heard ANY NIN at that point. No Closer exposure, no Perfect Drug, not even HLAH. Nothing. (HA). Couldn't make heads or tails of FDTS. I'd later understand it was a remix album of TDS, obviously, but I had no clue then. Broken was good, and got better with each listen. Couple of months later, I've picked up PHM and was confused by the different sound. I've found a copy of TDS and listened but not really absorbed it. Then, The Fragile comes out. I liked NIN before that. The Fragile made me FUCKING LOVE NIN. Start to finish, both discs. I went nuts after that. But, where I'm at, the few people who even care enough to buy The Fragile think it fucking blows. Like, returned it the same day. (You could return CDs to the local music shop within a week, believe it or not. The place went under. No idea why.) So finally finding my way here in like 2001 was... IDK amazing. When people say they hate The Fragile, it blows my mind. So yeah, sorry for the book... I digress.

-Skipping PHM, I love every single NIN album. I love Broken (yeah, it's an EP... whatever.) I love TDS, and The Fragile, and With Teeth, and Year Zero and Ghosts and The Slip. Remix albums are cool, but I don't find myself really ever listening to them unless I just dump all NIN into a playlist or something. And even then, I don't really like Fixed. Actually, I lied. I don't like most of them now that I think about it. Things Falling Apart has a couple of songs I like, as does FDTS. But I'll skip most of the rest.

-Most solo songs, for lack of a better term, I enjoy. Burn, Dead Souls, Deep, The Perfect Drug, etc. They're like one-shots in the comic book industry. They're not part of some bigger overall plot but usually cool little asides. If that makes any sense.

-I can listen to With Teeth start to finish without skipping a song and enjoy it. I'll never be like "I really want to hear You Know What You Are!" but as a whole, I enjoy the album.

-I really like Yero Zero, but I can't stand My Violent Heart. I hated Vessel until I saw it live. I'll listen to The Good Soldier like five times in a row. Same with The Warning and Meet Your Master and In This Twilight. I love Another Version of the Truth but dislike having to turn up the volume to hear it.

-Most people consider TDS to be the Magnum Opus. I think it's a really great album and I love concept albums. However, The Fragile is better.

-Do people actually hate The Slip? Um... why? (yes, I use ... a lot. It's how I talk, see.) I might skip the slow stuff while I'm driving (Corona and LITS) but I thought it was a great album and was blown away that it was free. Discipline is like crack. So is 1,000,000.

-With Teeth is easily the most accessible album to most people, I've noticed. My guess is the overall sound being less noisy? However, the idea that accessibility somehow lessens its quality is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard. Popular doesn't have to mean shitty. Unless you're an elitist. Or a hipster. Maybe those are the same things.

-I like Closer. Always have, always will. Oddly though, I prefer the second half of the song. The "above the trees" section, if you will. But damn it, when somebody says they love NIN and cite Closer as their favorite song, I have to ask "Do you like any other songs?" and they usually say "Eh." or something to that effect and I roid rage inside a little. Call me hypocrite for the above jab at elitism, but you're not a NIN fan, sorry.

-The Perfect Drug... maybe it's the video, or the unique sound of the song versus most of the other NIN. I love it. I hate that the actual song isn't on TPD Versions.... except for a certain import.

-Starfuckers, Inc. Good song. Not great, but good. It does seem out of place on the album though. I laugh at all the Everything hate because I feel like the seeds for Everything really start with I'm Looking Forward to Joining You, Finally. I love the song but... the smell of sunshine? Really? I never really see anyone diss on that and it always seemed like a departure from the normal decay/destruction motif. Of course, Into The Void funk made way for Only I suppose. All the Love in the World... I'm all over the place. Sorry, I'll focus.

-I've avoided listening to HM material as much as possible. I've downloaded the official release stuff, so I've heard CBH, CoA, and Everything. I'd be lying if I said my first listen of Everything didn't come with a little WTF? But after hearing it like two or three times, it might be my favorite of the three, followed very closely by Copy of a. Is CBH bad? Nope. I just really like those other two songs and I think it's because they're different. Copy of a isn't nearly as different as Everything but it has an unusual structure and the chorus does't remind me of previous NIN stuff. And I feel like, as I've grown and moved through various stages of my life, the albums coincided with where I was at. I'm sure that's mostly projection on my part, but I remember listening to TLBTB and thinking "Yeah, that's where I'm at right now." I remember hearing Discipline and thinking the same thing. I hear Everything and it has that same resonance with me. Did I laugh at the unicorn video? Yes, I did. But I still listen to the song everyday on my way to work... like three times.

YEAH. Sorry. Longest post ever and who gives a shit, right? It was good times.

[xolotl]

-Why the "Deep" hatred? Granted, it's not the best NIN song ever... but I remember listening to it when it first came out and enjoying it. I pop online, most people really didn't like it. I also remember a very strong reaction to the video... it was different. :-)
I figure it's mostly just because it debuted with the video, so the two got fairly inextricably linked in many folks' minds. I've always loved the actual song.


Do people actually hate The Slip? Um... why? (yes, I use ... a lot. It's how I talk, see.) I might skip the slow stuff while I'm driving (Corona and LITS) but I thought it was a great album and was blown away that it was free. Discipline is like crack. So is 1,000,000.
This was actually why I stepped in here, after seeing a bunch of comments in various corners of the internet disparaging The Slip when talking about Hesitation Marks. I suppose my controversial opinion is that The Slip is actually one of NIN's best albums. I personally rate it right alongside The Fragile. It always felt extremely fresh, raw, and powerful to me. I was disappointed at the time that pretty much 100% of the conversation about the album in any press was about its distribution method, rather than the actual songs on there. IMO it's extremely solid from start to finish. Edit: I see ZeroSum and others already mentioned this a number of pages back, and far more eloquently. Ah well. I agree!

Oh, and Getting Smaller absolutely rules. The Collector is pretty dope, too.

[Khrz]

I was disappointed at the time that pretty much 100% of the conversation about the album in any press was about its distribution method

Ahaha yeah, Pitchfork made some great backhanded compliment about it, something like "the price is right".

[Mr.Benjamin]

Given the controversy of 'Everything', I enjoy it more than 'Satellite'.

[Winter Is Coming]

I think all of the remix albums suck. I'd consider myself somewhat of a hardcore NIN fan but I don't own a single remix album and the only song I have on my ipod from any remix album is The Frail from Things Falling Apart. I guess I do have Metal too but that isn't a remix so I'm not counting it.

I just feel like they aren't part of the official NIN canon. When I DL'd the HM leak I didn't bother with the remixes.

[nowimdowninit]

Here are my controversial NIN opinions. Shred them at will.

- "Only" sounds like a self-indulgent experiment that almost worked, but not quite. Well. clearly it's TR's favorite moment in his career.
- The Fragile would have sold better if NIN had performed "WITT" at the VMAs as originally planned
- Songs about presidents of the USA have to cease to be played at the time said president's out of office ("THTF")
- Give up, "Gave Up" in the live set. Please.
- "Non Entity" is better than anything that actually made it onto WT
- "Survivalism" is kind of like "Only" for me. It's almost good, but not quite.
- "Head Down" is out of tune on TS. Live version is much better.
- Most of HM sounds like it wants to be "My Violent Heart." Ummm, kay.

[allegro]

The only part of The Fragile that I like (http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens17946790module150175269photo_1305316371f ragilerightdisc.jpg).

[chroipahtz]

The only part of The Fragile that I like (http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens17946790module150175269photo_1305316371f ragilerightdisc.jpg).
That's weird! There are several songs on Left that could easily be on Right (Somewhat Damaged, The Fragile, Just Like You Imagined, The Great Below). You don't like those?

[allegro]

That's weird! There are several songs on Left that could easily be on Right (Somewhat Damaged, The Fragile, Just Like You Imagined, The Great Below). You don't like those?

No.


......

[BRoswell]

- Songs about presidents of the USA have to cease to be played at the time said president's out of office ("THTF")

Uh, what? It's not like he's screaming "Fuck George Bush" repeatedly.

[nowimdowninit]

Uh, what? It's not like he's screaming "Fuck George Bush" repeatedly.

But we all know. Especially if you saw LITS shows. We know.

[tony.parente]

Am I allowed to post controversial trent opinions?

His kids names are silly.

[chroipahtz]

But we all know. Especially if you saw LITS shows. We know.
Ok, then they also can't play any songs about drugs/addiction because he's not on drugs anymore. Deal?

[eversonpoe]

The only part of The Fragile that I like (http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens17946790module150175269photo_1305316371f ragilerightdisc.jpg).

huh, really? you don't like ANY of left at all? even remotely?

[BRoswell]

But we all know. Especially if you saw LITS shows. We know.

Yeah, but there's nothing about the song itself that dates it. It's a rallying cry to face whatever is holding you down and punch its lights out, and I doubt that can only be applied to George W. Bush.

[allegro]

huh, really? you don't like ANY of left at all? even remotely?
I like part of "Somewhat Damaged"

[nowimdowninit]

Well, hell, there goes all the songs!

[nowimdowninit]

Yeah, but there's nothing about the song itself that dates it. It's a rallying cry to face whatever is holding you down and punch its lights out, and I doubt that can only be applied to George W. Bush.

I can't support it. :eek:

[brokenfragility]

The only part of The Fragile that I like (http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens17946790module150175269photo_1305316371f ragilerightdisc.jpg).

I kind of agree. When I was a teen and The Fragile came out, The Fragile Left was my shit, but as I've become older and wiser I much prefer TF Right now. I still like TDTWWA, JLYI, and La Mer on Left but thats about it. Right had some way more experimental stuff and is fantastic (with the exception of Starfuckers). This is also the reason TF has fallen down my list of NIN albums to about 4 or 5. I like Hesitation Marks AND Year Zero more than The Fragile. TDS will always reign supreme though.

[Shadaloo]

Peter Murphy was fucking awesome with NIN.

[nowimdowninit]

Peter Murphy was fucking awesome with NIN.

Now, that's controversial.

[allegro]

I kind of agree. When I was a teen and The Fragile came out, The Fragile Left was my shit, but as I've become older and wiser I much prefer TF Right now. Right had some way more experimental stuff and is fantastic (
"Ripe (with decay)" is my favorite song on The Fragile.

I also really like Starfuckers.

[eversonpoe]

"Ripe (with decay)" is my favorite song on The Fragile.

I also really like Starfuckers.

i think ripe (with decay) is the best single-song album closer trent has ever done. everything about that song is perfect.

i also dig starfuckers.

[howdidislipinto]

Even though I like the songs themselves, I kind of wish Broken could be erased from the NIN discography. It had too much of an influence on how people perceived the band for too long. I know that shouldn't matter, but for years when I talked about NIN the picture I'd try to get across in my head would be, say, the artistry behind The Persistence Of Loss/Leaving Hope... while other people, staring back at me, eyebrow cocked, definitely had the Broken image (and perhaps the fanbase that came along with that) still in their mind. I think the EP had far more impact than it deserved. It wish it had come and then disappeared off the face of the Earth when TDS arrived, like how all thoughts of An Omen disappeared once Welcome Oblivion arrived. (I know An Omen was literally an album preview and not a standalone EP, but you get my drift.) To me it should have been just a random halo for the hardcore fans to find, not a statement like the LPs.

[theSplinter04]

I still don't see why anyone would skip Pilgrimage. I fucking love that track!
and No You Don't.
and Letting You.
and Everything. It fits so perfectly

[allegro]

had the Broken image (and perhaps the fanbase that came along with that)
Broken was the second record after Pretty Hate Machine. And The Downward Spiral isn't a big departure from Broken; in fact, Broken is the prelude to The Downward Spiral. Pretty Hate Machine and Broken are SO different, people could barely believe they were from the same band (including me: I disliked Pretty Hate Machine until revisiting it 2 decades later). But hating an album because it attracted a certain kind of fan is a dumb reason for disliking an artist's work, don't you think? I remember being in a bar in Wrigleyville and Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" came blaring out of the PA and a bunch of really drunk stereotypical frat bros jumped up onto some chairs and started fist-pumping and dancing and, for a millisecond, I wanted to dislike Nirvana.

But I'm not that stupid.

[Halo Infinity]

Even though I like the songs themselves, I kind of wish Broken could be erased from the NIN discography. It had too much of an influence on how people perceived the band for too long. I know that shouldn't matter, but for years when I talked about NIN the picture I'd try to get across in my head would be, say, the artistry behind The Persistence Of Loss/Leaving Hope... while other people, staring back at me, eyebrow cocked, definitely had the Broken image (and perhaps the fanbase that came along with that) still in their mind. I think the EP had far more impact than it deserved. It wish it had come and then disappeared off the face of the Earth when TDS arrived, like how all thoughts of An Omen disappeared once Welcome Oblivion arrived. (I know An Omen was literally an album preview and not a standalone EP, but you get my drift.) To me it should have been just a random halo for the hardcore fans to find, not a statement like the LPs.
Yeah, while I understand that such a post is very true to the overall nature and being of this thread, picturing Nine Inch Nails without Broken is just flat-out wrong to me. That thought just made me picture Radiohead without The Bends, or Ministry without The Land of Rape and Honey, or Marilyn Manson without Antichrist Superstar just to give you an idea on other bands being used as an example.

[howdidislipinto]

Broken was the second record after Pretty Hate Machine. And The Downward Spiral isn't a big departure from Broken; in fact, Broken is the prelude to The Downward Spiral. Pretty Hate Machine and Broken are SO different, people could barely believe they were from the same band (including me: I disliked Pretty Hate Machine until revisiting it 2 decades later). But hating an album because it attracted a certain kind of fan is a dumb reason for disliking an artist's work, don't you think? I remember being in a bar in Wrigleyville and Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" came blaring out of the PA and a bunch of really drunk stereotypical frat bros jumped up onto some chairs and started fist-pumping and dancing and, for a millisecond, I wanted to dislike Nirvana.

But I'm not that stupid.

I hope it was clear that I'm not in that category. But I also wouldn't blame people that are or call them stupid. First impressions do matter, and if a certain type of NIN music video/fanbase was the loudest in the '90s, what exactly might inspire someone who WOULD like the other aspects of NIN but has no idea they exist to look further? When it comes down to it, I guess I'm saying that even when Trent gets loud and abrasive, there's an artistry to it (like TDS, obviously)... but I personally don't feel that on Broken. I like the songs, but subtract a few of the more intense production moments and those songs could be written by any heavy '90s band. That's not something I feel you can say for any other NIN material. It just doesn't fit well into the puzzle for me, and for such a small, insignificant release, it's had way too much of an impact.

People always say TDS = PHM+Broken, and I always thought that was incredibly disparaging to TDS -- nothing on Broken even touches the level of work on TDS, outside of occasional volume levels. Never understood it.


Marilyn Manson without Antichrist Superstar.

C'mon now, Marilyn Manson without his best album (or only good one, in my personal opinion) is NOT the same is NIN without Broken!

Also, despite all my criticisms of Broken, I love Gave Up and don't mind that it's still a live staple. I do think Wish is overrated and has no need to still be showing up at concerts. And Last is... kind of meh. /more controversy

[Dryalex12]

My favorite song from the PHM Era is the untitled hidden track from HLAH

[Halo Infinity]

People always say TDS = PHM+Broken, and I always thought that was incredibly disparaging to TDS -- nothing on Broken even touches the level of work on TDS, outside of occasional volume levels. Never understood it.
I suppose that we're going to just have to agree to disagree because I actually like Broken that much and I sometimes like to think of it as a second LP even if it is an EP, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread. And I'm also one of those people that thought it was very complimentary to The Downward Spiral. We're on completely opposite ends here.


C'mon now, Marilyn Manson without his best album (or only good one, in my personal opinion) is NOT the same is NIN without Broken!

Also, despite all my criticisms of Broken, I love Gave Up and don't mind that it's still a live staple. I do think Wish is overrated and has no need to still be showing up at concerts. And Last is... kind of meh. /more controversy
And I suppose that it still just boils down to me loving Broken that much, and that's just me. I agree with you on Gave Up though, and would actually like to hear more of Happiness In Slavery again, even though I also like Last a lot. I even see what you mean about Wish too. Not that I started disliking Wish, but I've clearly heard that song from Broken the most live. However, I don't think I'd ever get tired of hearing Pinion as a concert opener.

[allegro]

othing on Broken even touches the level of work on TDS, outside of occasional volume levels.
When did you start listening to Nine Inch Nails? I mean, with what album?

Because I think this is a lot like the "Which Alien is Best?" discussion; It all depends on which one you saw first. (Pretty much everybody agrees that the last Alien movie really sucked.)

If I had come in at around The Fragile, I wouldn't be in this forum discussing Nine Inch Nails. If I had not had Broken and TDS, I would have had zero interest in Nine Inch Nails. The Fragile did not resonate with me. At all. When Broken was released, I went "HEY, THIS IS AWESOME!!! I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GUY, BUT THIS IS GREAT STUFF! Is this really the same Pretty Hate Machine guy??" It wasn't Guns n Roses, it wasn't all that other metal crap during that period, it wasn't Pearl Jam, it was kinda kinky and sexy and hard and fun and dirty and gritty and the video for Wish was like Escape from New York. The "metal" people I knew didn't like ANY of it. At all. When The Downward Spiral was released, it was not much different from Broken. I put them together in the same category of brilliance. Preference is preference, but don't judge THE WORK based on preference, you know? "I don't like The Fragile" is not the same as "The Fragile is crap." I would never say the latter.

Being tired of songs because he plays them too many times live shouldn't affect the work, itself. If I never hear "Hurt" or "Closer" again, live, that would be fine with me, but that doesn't mean they aren't great songs.

I didn't want to go to any Nine Inch Nails shows during the Self Destruct tour because it involved way too much testosterone-fueled stupidity and I just don't like that kind of energy. But did I stop listening to Nine Inch Nails because of a bunch of douche bags at NIN shows? Because NIN attracted a bunch of douche bags because of The Downward Spiral? Of course not. I almost disliked NIN when all the Tickle Me Emo people showed up with The Fragile, but noooooooo ... I'm still here. ;)

[Akuratyde]

Here's a controversial opinion:

Hesitation Marks is only okay.

[howdidislipinto]

When did you start listening to Nine Inch Nails? I mean, with what album?

Because I think this is a lot like the "Which Alien is Best?" discussion; It all depends on which one you saw first. (Pretty much everybody agrees that the last Alien movie really sucked.)

TDS was my first NIN album, and at this point I can't recall whether Broken or PHM came next (both were very close). I liked them both at the time -- since then, my love for PHM has grown leaps and bounds while Broken has sort of just stayed in the same spot. Part of it could be a personal issue with the production, too -- I think Broken has the lamest guitar sound in the entire NIN discography. The live versions of most of the songs are preferable. As I said earlier, I do feel like any '90s band could have put out something that approximates the Broken sound -- no '90s band could or did put out anything that approximates The Downward Spiral.

And just to further outline our differences in NIN-taste, I got The Fragile at the midnight release, late Monday night, made it home near 1am, tried to listen to as much as I could before my bullshit 6am wake up call for high school... and even though I think I only made it to WITT that first night, every fucking note resonated with me right away. Dorky as it sounds, it was maybe one of the most magical weeks of my life.

That's what makes NIN fun though. There's so much diversity in the catalogue that even two hardcore fans tastes need never intersect.

P.S. I might've seen Alien: Resurrection first. Definitely don't think it's the best, and I hope no one does, ha. But then I saw Alien and Aliens together and love them both passionately and equally, so maybe the theory does work.

[brokenfragility]

I do feel like any '90s band could have put out something that approximates the Broken sound

I just want to hop in and say WTF!? Broken is far more intricate than you think. Its cool that you don't like it as much as some other stuff, but don't say any 90s band could have made Broken, that is just insane. Happiness In Slavery!?

[howdidislipinto]

I just want to hop in and say WTF!? Broken is far more intricate than you think. Its cool that you don't like it as much as some other stuff, but don't say any 90s band could have made Broken, that is just insane. Happiness In Slavery!?

In my previous post I said "other than some of the more intense production moments" which was pretty much my way of saying "other than Happiness In Slavery."

[allegro]

I do feel like any '90s band could have put out something that approximates the Broken sound
I think there are a LOT of people, here, who would disagree with you, myself included. And, it's not just about the "sound," it's about the whole package. Broken represents the definite audible SHIFT that happened to Nine Inch Nails after Pretty Hate Machine.

[howdidislipinto]

I think there are a LOT of people, here, who would disagree with you, myself included. And, it's not just about the "sound," it's about the whole package. Broken represents the definite audible SHIFT that happened to Nine Inch Nails after Pretty Hate Machine.

Got to agree to disagree -- Broken to me stands alone, both in its production and simplicity, and doesn't at all represent or reflect what came afterwards. The comparison cheapens the later albums. Even if you take some of the potentially "Broken-like" songs from the later albums, like March Of The Pigs or Somewhat Damaged -- does anything on Broken even compare with those two tracks? Compare it to the only other EP we have, Still, and... goddamn, it's not even in the same ballpark. And Still fits in more in the discography, too. Beautifully, in fact. Such a good progression from The Fragile. To me, Broken just sticks out like a sore thumb.

I know lots of people will disagree. That's why I put it in Controversial NIN Opinions.

[allegro]

To me, Broken just sticks out like a sore thumb.
Broken in the Nine Inch Nails discography is as essential as "Paranoid" in the Black Sabbath discography.


But, you're right, we're allowed to disagree.

I gotta admit something, though: My not loving The Fragile isn't exactly news on this board; I've been here since January of 2004 so, technically, my comment was not "controversial" on ETS. Sorry.

[Krazy]

When did you start listening to Nine Inch Nails? I mean, with what album?

Because I think this is a lot like the "Which Alien is Best?" discussion; It all depends on which one you saw first. (Pretty much everybody agrees that the last Alien movie really sucked.)

If I had come in at around The Fragile, I wouldn't be in this forum discussing Nine Inch Nails. If I had not had Broken and TDS, I would have had zero interest in Nine Inch Nails. The Fragile did not resonate with me. At all. When Broken was released, I went "HEY, THIS IS AWESOME!!! I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GUY, BUT THIS IS GREAT STUFF! Is this really the same Pretty Hate Machine guy??" It wasn't Guns n Roses, it wasn't all that other metal crap during that period, it wasn't Pearl Jam, it was kinda kinky and sexy and hard and fun and dirty and gritty and the video for Wish was like Escape from New York. The "metal" people I knew didn't like ANY of it. At all. When The Downward Spiral was released, it was not much different from Broken. I put them together in the same category of brilliance. Preference is preference, but don't judge THE WORK based on preference, you know? "I don't like The Fragile" is not the same as "The Fragile is crap." I would never say the latter.

Being tired of songs because he plays them too many times live shouldn't affect the work, itself. If I never hear "Hurt" or "Closer" again, live, that would be fine with me, but that doesn't mean they aren't great songs.

I didn't want to go to any Nine Inch Nails shows during the Self Destruct tour because it involved way too much testosterone-fueled stupidity and I just don't like that kind of energy. But did I stop listening to Nine Inch Nails because of a bunch of douche bags at NIN shows? Because NIN attracted a bunch of douche bags because of The Downward Spiral? Of course not. I almost disliked NIN when all the Tickle Me Emo people showed up with The Fragile, but noooooooo ... I'm still here. ;)

Thank you- for posting something I'd like to write. I'll disagree with the last live show part though. Nothing wrong with "kids" letting out some steam at a very intense live show. And no, I wasn't one of those meatheads (no pun intended) that would mosh into people that didn't want to.


Here's a controversial opinion:

Hesitation Marks is only okay.

I'll second that. It's got some decent spots but not digging it right now. I'm sure more listens will get me liking it more but nothing is really "sticking" (so to speak).

[aggroculture]

Impossible/Improbable Pain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Fragile.
Yes, a fake news story was better than the reality of NIN's magnum opus.

And: the beginning of Came Back Haunted reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9yDoYRRBYY

[Krazy]

Also not sure if this is a controversial opinion: when the big news came in February about new NIN album and tour, I was more excited about the tour. Wasn't sure what to expect with the new album but the festival shows haven't seemed to disappoint.

Im not pointing fingers, but for the people that say TR is in a better place and life has changed and glad he's happy and all (all of which I agree with), he's not completely different- he sure as fuck can still bring it to the stage despite age and family, and maybe better than anytime before (outside of the vocals losing a bit, but that's like me complaining about my mid-30's receding hair line). And his twitter rants always bring a smile/grin? to my face.

[tw3rbz]

My favorite song from the PHM Era is the untitled hidden track from HLAH
Woo! They're GOOD!!1!one

[ManBurning]

Here's a controversial opinion if there ever was one...

I'd rather get my hands on the Fragile Deluxe Reissue than listen to Hesitation Marks again...

[allegro]

I don't think anything pro-Fragile is very "controversial" on this board.

[ManBurning]

No, but not enjoying Hesitation Marks seems to be the new controversial opinion of the week on this board. I swear everyone on this board except me (and the trolls who register to just write "this album sucks" and fuck off) love this album more than anything on this planet.

[ninsp]

Pretty Hate Machine is half good, half god awful. When people praise it for being amazing, maybe for the time. Now it sounds like a product of its time. Many songs sound great, many sound awful.
Broken is...not very good.
With Teeth is...also...not very good.
Year Zero is better than Pretty Hate Machine and Broken.
The Slip is boring as shit.

Also, I really don't understand how any NIN fan could dislike Hesitation Marks. It, is, literally, the epitome of Nine Inch Nails.

[jesus]

it was so funny watching Trent as Darth Sidius in the Reading Festival, and fuck it! the way his voice sounded during The Warning LOL

[ManBurning]

I so Wish ETS never crashed and we had a well kept log of everyone's first impressions of albums like [With_Teeth], Year Zero, The Slip etc. as I am curious if everyone that says Hesitation Marks is the greatest thing since "The Fragile" only because it is new and fresh. Did all those people say the same about the previous NIN releases when they first came out? God, I wish I could go back in time and find those threads. Everyone making these "confessions" now that album "B" is better than album "A" makes you kind of wonder what those people's initial reaction to the album was.

Has time tainted our opinion on certain albums?

I would ESPECIALLY like to see this whole forums original opinion of "The Slip" oh holy mother of fuck, if any thread needs to come out of the archives it's that one. Something tells me EVERYONE hating on The Slip, loved the FUCK out of it when it first came out, and you want to know why? Because it was NEW NINE INCH NAILS, therefore it was automatically better than the last few records. I seriously believe this is how a new NIN record works, everyone loves it at first until a newer record comes out, or until other people start getting tired or bored of the album and start hating on it, that influences other people's opinions into maybe believing what they are hearing is true.

Long story short, in 2-5 years (hopefully sonner rather than later) when a new NIN record comes out, it will be better than Hesitation Marks automatically by default because it is new and this is old. If this board is still around in 5-10 years and all of you are still posting on here, I would like to see if any of you come to to this confessions thread to spill your heart out about forcing yourself to TRY and like the new album by just saying you liked it all along, but deep down hated it.

Not just The Slip, but [With_Teeth] as well, that gets alot of flack for being a crappy album. I thought the NIN community went BALLISTIC over that album when it came out. Put it on a pedastol like a brick of gold, because we never thought we would hear from TR ever again, so the fact he came back with one more round of tunes, we were happy. We didn't give a fuck what was on that album, we ate it all up.

But compared to Hesitation Marks, [With_Teeth] IS a gold brick, and it deserves to stay up on that pedastol.

[ninsp]

I so Wish ETS never crashed and we had a well kept log of everyone's first impressions of albums like [With_Teeth], Year Zero, The Slip etc. as I am curious if everyone that says Hesitation Marks is the greatest thing since "The Fragile" only because it is new and fresh. Did all those people say the same about the previous NIN releases when they first came out? God, I wish I could go back in time and find those threads. Everyone making these "confessions" now that album "B" is better than album "A" makes you kind of wonder what those people's initial reaction to the album was.

Has time tainted our opinion on certain albums?

I would ESPECIALLY like to see this whole forums original opinion of "The Slip" oh holy mother of fuck, if any thread needs to come out of the archives it's that one. Something tells me EVERYONE hating on The Slip, loved the FUCK out of it when it first came out, and you want to know why? Because it was NEW NINE INCH NAILS, therefore it was automatically better than the last few records. I seriously believe this is how a new NIN record works, everyone loves it at first until a newer record comes out, or until other people start getting tired or bored of the album and start hating on it, that influences other people's opinions into maybe believing what they are hearing is true.

Long story short, in 2-5 years (hopefully sonner rather than later) when a new NIN record comes out, it will be better than Hesitation Marks automatically by default because it is new and this is old. If this board is still around in 5-10 years and all of you are still posting on here, I would like to see if any of you come to to this confessions thread to spill your heart out about forcing yourself to TRY and like the new album by just saying you liked it all along, but deep down hated it.

Not just The Slip, but [With_Teeth] as well, that gets alot of flack for being a crappy album. I thought the NIN community went BALLISTIC over that album when it came out. Put it on a pedastol like a brick of gold, because we never thought we would hear from TR ever again, so the fact he came back with one more round of tunes, we were happy. We didn't give a fuck what was on that album, we ate it all up.

But compared to Hesitation Marks, [With_Teeth] IS a gold brick, and it deserves to stay up on that pedastol.

My initial reaction to With Teeth was "This is awful. Can't do it without the drugs, apparently." Wrong about the drug part, still awful.
My initial reaction to Year Zero was "This is amazing." Still is.
My initial reaction to The Slip was "This is OK. Feels like an EP." Still feel that way.

Stop making assumptions and putting words in people's mouths to try to make yourself feel better that people prefer an album you like to another one that everybody else likes. ETS was in no way this excited about YZ or The Slip after an early leak. Didn't go on ETS for With teeth so I can't comment.

Great way to make yourself feel better by trashing everyone else, though.

With Teeth is more like a golden turd. Notice it gets left out of the set, except for the two huge singles...even Trent knows it.

[Khrz]

Has time tainted our opinion on certain albums?

Time has given perspective, that's all.

Personally, I've been underwhelmed by With_Teeth from the release of THTF. I remember turning to my girlfriend (who wasn't a fan, but enjoyed NIN very much) and asking her "that's not so good, is it ?"
Eventually I warmed up to some of those tracks and embraced others, but it's the first time I bought a NIN CD from the bargain bin, instead of grabbing the mint CD as soon as released.

When we started to hear snippets of Year Zero I was extremely excited. At last something radically different and challenging. When the CD came out, I loved how it sounded, and still believe YZ is the most left-field NIN has been since TDS.

But I've never been that enthusiastic about every track on a NIN record as I have now. Considering that every NIN release has needed time to "percolate" so to speak, this enthusiasm could be considered a bad sign, but I know what I love, and it's not straightforwardness. I considered With_Teeth too "easy". Not the case here.

Oh, and I did, and still, consider The Slip as a very good, but somewhat uninteresting Best Of. Uninteresting in the sense that I know NIN, thank you, and know what Reznor is capable of. The Slip, to me, rehashes everything we know, and adds very few to the mix. The songs are great, but there's no evolution here. Time hasn't changed much of my opinion on that matter.






pedastol
*giggle*

[chroipahtz]

I very distinctly remember people were middling about With Teeth and The Slip, at best. Everyone I talked to was like "cool. new NIN music." but there was very little gushing like there is with HM. Those albums are listenable, but they're not of the caliber we're used to from Trent, and the majority made their opinions clear about this.

Year Zero was a bit different, because of all the weird meta-stuff surrounding it, but that album seemed to garner more praise than the other two I just mentioned (and probably for good reason, since it's better realized and has less filler).

[Amaro]

Year Zero is Hesitation Marks vomit.

[Halo Infinity]

I think there are a LOT of people, here, who would disagree with you, myself included. And, it's not just about the "sound," it's about the whole package. Broken represents the definite audible SHIFT that happened to Nine Inch Nails after Pretty Hate Machine.
That's exactly what I was thinking, and I forgot to point that out at the time. I also don't remember the exact interview, if there was one, but I remember Trent saying something about wanting to go into a heavier direction after hearing how heavier the live versions of Pretty Hate Machine songs became. Something about being inspired by his live band.

Oh, and thank goodness for NinWiki: http://www.ninwiki.com/Broken#Inspiration

[ManBurning]

Great way to make yourself feel better by trashing everyone else, though.

With Teeth is more like a golden turd. Notice it gets left out of the set, except for the two huge singles...even Trent knows it.

Not making myself feel better at all here my friend. In fact, my initial reaction reaction to [With_Teeth] was it was one of the greatest records ever.
Now, whether that was the feeling I was just describing a moment ago where you just go head over heels with the fact that NIN is back to releasing music or not is something I cannot speak for as 2005 has come and gone and there have been many records since then. But my initial reaction to W_T was it was AMAZING!

Now, coincidently, I was actually working on another post in the "Rank the albums" thread. I ranked the albums in 2011 and then I thought, how about I quote my original post and see if my feelings are the same from 1.5 yrs ago. Now, as I was working on my new "ranking" I noticed something, my thoughts on the records changed, and that was only in the span of less than 2 years (Dec 2011 til AUg 2013). So it got me thinking, if an opinion on a record can change that quickly for myself, maybe it can for others as well.

Anyway, the point is... I wanted an accurate representation of my rankings and I was stumped with how to order 3 albums... [With_Teeth], Year Zero, and Hesitation Marks. So I went to wikipedia to look at each albums tracklisting and decided to make a list of how many songs I like on each album. While doing that, I came to a VERY scary conclusion. I only like 5/13 songs on that album!! So then I thought "You know what...[With_Teeth] IS GARBAGE... so I put a halt on my updated ranking of albums to go edit my post here and OMIT the fact I said [With_Teeth] was a gold brick... it is not... far from, it is a piece of trash.

See how fast an impression of an album can change? Just by looking at a tracklist. I thought that album was the TITS in 2005. Now, the question is... Why? Why did i think that album was so amazing back then? Was it the feeling of getting music from my favourite band again? Was I just young and my musical tastes have grown now? It is an interesting question...

So ya know, it's not me trying to look better than everyone here by saying that many of you may only be thinking Hesitation Marks is amazing now, i'm just stating that my mind of an album has changed before as time went on. Other way around as well, first few times I listened to the Fragile, I was not impressed. Coming off TDS, and getting a more relaxed, mellow, mature record like The Fragile is a hard thing to do. Opinions of an album can change with time, that's why I say I would like to have seen everyone initial reactions to the albums. People can say how they felt about the album, but if they went back and read a written log of a review or something they wrote back then, they might be pleasently surprised on how much they no longer agree with their original thoughts of a record as time went on.

Anyway, [With_Teeth] is crap. Going back to ranking my albums now...

[Christo]

I absolutely detest Alessandro's voice.

[GavinCollins420]

I absolutely detest Alessandro's voice.

:O

Ten characters

[chroipahtz]

I absolutely detest Alessandro's voice.
Oh no you didn't.

[BenAkenobi]

Alessandro is the best thing that happened to nin since Chris

[elevenism]

i LOVE the video for deep and i don't understand what's wrong with it.
I've LOVED that's what i get since i was 12 and i don't understand whats wrong with that either!

And i think i like YZ better than TDS. TDS was fucking GREAT when i was 14...15...16...and it's still fucking great.
but it kinda makes me wanna kill myself now...

[Khrz]

Well, mission accomplished then !

[EndlessLoveless]

With Teeth is not crap!?!? All the love in the world, love is not enough, the line begins to blur, beside you in time!?!?! Those songs are fucking unreal! Granted there are a few songs that are my least favorite, but the good out weighs the bad. I know everyone has thier own opinion, but fuck man, to say its crap...that means to me that there isnt one redeeming quality to it. And just the songs the line begins to blur and beside you in time alone, were well worth the wait and make up for the not so good tracks.

[Janus3659]

I recall lurking here back in 2005 when With Teeth came out. There was a lot of fapping going on. Seriously, it was almost awkward. I remember Sunspots especially had a dedicated thread with lots of admiration within. I remember Getting Smaller dividing the ranks - you either loved it or hated it.

I don't really get the With Teeth dislike, but I can guess. It's accessible and lacks a lot of the, IDK, industrial sound from most other NIN. It's a rock/pop album. It also attracted a lot of people who weren't previously Nine Inch Nails fans.

I personally love the album. I skip maybe two tracks when I listen to it (You Know What You Are and The Hand That Feeds). THTF got ridiculously overplayed. There was the Bush thing... I'm over it. YKWYA - I got no real reason I can point to but I've NEVER liked the song. Day one to now, even performed live. Just not a fan. Yet I like All the Love in the World. EDIETS really struck a chord with me at the time... even still today, I suppose. Love is Not Enough is forgettable but I'll still listen to it. The Collector is a good track. The title track took me a little while to grow on me, but now it is one of my favs on the album. TLBTB is fucking amazing. I love Getting Smaller. I love Beside You In Time and I REALLY fucking love Right Where it Belongs. Sunspots is a great song. There's nothing like a song with good build up. Only... I remember Only getting tons of praise when the album leaked and I got a copy of it and then didn't listen to it. I waited for my physical copy (three? I got the regular CD, the Dualdisc, and the Japanese Import... and the Vinyl. Jesus.) and I remember wanting to hear Only cause everyone on here was fapping away about it. It definitely wasn't what I expected. And I couldn't stop listening to it.

[Elke]

Dude, WITH_TEETH is awesome. If for no other reason than it marks the rebirth of the Treznor.

But seriously, that album has a lot going for it. Yes, it's poppy and accessible and whatever. I've never been one for too much TDS wank, and compared to that everything is light entertainment, inlcuding Hesitation Marks. The only song on W_T that I never really got was Love Is Not Enough, but I can still appreciate it as a solid song. It probably has some of the best lyrics Trent ever wrote (or definitely, if you prefer the glass half empty approach, the least bad lyrics), just technically speaking [break out the flip-flops to contradict that]. It has some beautiful sonic landschapes (the second half of ATLITW, Sunspots, BYIT, RWIB]. It has some stuff you can actually vacuum to, that doesn't make you want to kill yourself, like THTF or The Collector. It has some actual singing, which is always a bonus. It has real drums, played by Dave Grohl. Also awesome. It has Home (at least my version does), which is fucking beautiful. It has really nice artwork.

I guess it just depends on what your entrypoint was into NIN, whether you like certain songs or albums, or not. If you get hard listening to Fixed, W_T's probably not going to be it for you. But on the whole, it's not bad. It's definitely not a whole album of Deep.

[Amaro]

I dunno if it's because I've always been in love with the beat, or what, but Love Is Not Enough is an essential With Teeth track for me. From the moment I first heard it, till today. It's simple, and seething, Trent's vocals being a huge part of that. The production is ace too.

For you to go and take THIIIIIIIIIS...nnnmsmash it apart...

Love Is Not Enough factoid: It was the first song written for With Teeth.

Also on the subject of With Teeth--apparently a great deal of the album's songs (if not all?) were originally written on piano.

[Amaro]

oh nos double post

[Kyle]

It has some beautiful sonic landschapes (the second half of ATLITW, Sunspots, BYIT, RWIB]. It has some stuff you can actually vacuum to,

Mostly because of the vacuum cleaner solo in Sunspots.

[accelestar]

I *hate* Piggy. I always skip it when listening to TDS or any live album. I think it's such a boring waste of time that I get physically angry when they devote a spot to it in a setlist. I can't place exactly why I hate it so much, but I just find it far too boring and uninteresting to spend any time listening to.

[ninedead]

ok so i guess this will be a controversial opinion but it seems like 'While I'm Still Here (Breyer P-Orridge 'Howler' remix)' is trent showing us that he can still put out a song that could fit on TDS but he just doesnt want to haha. this is nothing against HM or any other album but this song is just so good and i wish we could get a whole album like this again.

[Krazy]

I *hate* Piggy. I always skip it when listening to TDS or any live album. I think it's such a boring waste of time that I get physically angry when they devote a spot to it in a setlist. I can't place exactly why I hate it so much, but I just find it far too boring and uninteresting to spend any time listening to.

Agreed. Outside of the physical copy of TDS it's deleted from everything else. The 'Nothing Can Stop Me Now' live version is pretty damn good though.

[kel]

"vessel" and "my violent heart" are completely unlistenable. also, "reptile" has always sucked.

and i would have LIVED for the briefly possible aaliyah-reznor collab.

[screwdriver]

I can't tell -- is it controversial to like With Teeth or to NOT like With Teeth?

I fucking love that album. Just speaking sonically, nothing else sounds like it and I think it gets ignored for how rad the production is. It merged garage drums, modular synths, piano, and super harsh guitars, and the whole thing works way better than it would if most anyone else tried that. I just fucking LOVE the way that record sounds.

Coincidentally, the songs that I'm really blasé about from that record these days are the ones he's still playing -- THTF and Only -- which are also the ones that don't sonically fit what I just described.

I think the lyrics for the most part are pretty fuckin' ok, with some clunkers (The Collector UGH) but also some moments of real crystaline beauty. I think there's something really raw about the fatalistic terror of YKWYA that gives me shivers, even though it's really 'simple' lyrically.

I can't really rank NIN albums, because they're so varied sonically it's a different day of the week thing, but I think this is an excellent entry.

[Butterscotch]

You know, I've only been here for a few days, and I can already tell that this thread definitely lives up to its name.

[steelnails95]

I love You Know What You Are

[pigpen]

People who say they can listen to The Fragile 100 times and hear something different in each track, each time are full of shit.
It's a great album, but come on..

[kel]

People who say they can listen to The Fragile 100 times and hear something different in each track, each time are full of shit.
It's a great album, but come on..
y'know, there are times i think it's immersive and great, but others it's just indulgent and almost boring.

[pigpen]

I wouldn't exactly call it boring, it's a beast of an album and to me wastes not a single moment.. It's just not the endlessly complex
record that everyone builds it up to be.
I actually can't believe it when I see people call it bloated and that it should have been cut down to a single record.. FOR SHAME!!!
There's never been an instance where I wished there was LESS nine inch nails material in existence..

[Leviathant]

People who say they can listen to The Fragile 100 times and hear something different in each track, each time are full of shit.
It's a great album, but come on..

So in the ten years that between The Downward Spiral and the 5.1 Deluxe 10th anniversary edition of The Downward Spiral, I probably listened to the album more times than there are days during that span. Figured I knew it front to back, and knew every tiny little sound that could possibly be on that album. And then the surround version came out, and at first I thought, there must be new stuff he added in here, since he had all the multitracks kicking around. And while for Big Man with a Gun, I'm pretty sure they re-recorded parts of that track, the rest of the album - all the 'new' parts that I thought had been added in... were there on my old CD, all along.

The Fragile takes that and multiplies it by at least fivefold. Have you ever inverted the phase on Just Like You Imagined, to where you can hear Mike Garson punching the piano keys, and the lower frequency synth buzzing that is otherwise unnoticeable in the thick of the mix? Or heard the flute in Starfuckers (https://soundcloud.com/leviathant/starfuckers-nin-com-loops)? The multitude of layers in TDTWWA - even if it's just tracks upon tracks of guitars and vocals, modulating in the stereo field.

There's stuff buried in The Fragile that you definitely hear better in high fidelity, that would be more audible in a surround mix.

[pigpen]

So in the ten years that between The Downward Spiral and the 5.1 Deluxe 10th anniversary edition of The Downward Spiral, I probably listened to the album more times than there are days during that span. Figured I knew it front to back, and knew every tiny little sound that could possibly be on that album. And then the surround version came out, and at first I thought, there must be new stuff he added in here, since he had all the multitracks kicking around. And while for Big Man with a Gun, I'm pretty sure they re-recorded parts of that track, the rest of the album - all the 'new' parts that I thought had been added in... were there on my old CD, all along.

The Fragile takes that and multiplies it by at least fivefold. Have you ever inverted the phase on Just Like You Imagined, to where you can hear Mike Garson punching the piano keys, and the lower frequency synth buzzing that is otherwise unnoticeable in the thick of the mix? Or heard the flute in Starfuckers (https://soundcloud.com/leviathant/starfuckers-nin-com-loops)? The multitude of layers in TDTWWA - even if it's just tracks upon tracks of guitars and vocals, modulating in the stereo field.

There's stuff buried in The Fragile that you definitely hear better in high fidelity, that would be more audible in a surround mix.

I'm not saying it's not there.. And you kind of illustrated what I was getting at.

[Elke]

"vessel" and "my violent heart" are completely unlistenable.

Oh dear me, if only I'd known that before, I'd have stopped myself from playing them both on repeat for days when they first came out!

*cough* Seriously. What's wrong with them?

[Sarah K]

I fucking love With Teeth. And all of PHM.

I want to violently molest Ilan.

HM has been super disappointing after the first couple of listens - this could change.

I agree with the earlier statements of Pilgrimage. I cannot fucking stand that shit. One time I may or may not have been under the influence of some weird ass shit, and listening to that song literally made me start gagging. It was one of the most fucked up experiences of my life.

[BenAkenobi]

reading all the fragile talk, i started wondering, if (Left) and (Right) were released separately (perhaps a full year apart), would it benefit Trent? would it benefit listeners? for 5 years now i play it one CD at a time, randomly. feels alright, not too diluted or bloated as others pointed out. i think (Right) can take the title The big come down.
--edit--

...Pilgrimage. I cannot fucking stand that shit...

How old are you?

[Khrz]

reading all the fragile talk, i started wondering, if (Left) and (Right) were released separately (perhaps a full year apart), would it benefit Trent? would it benefit listeners?


I started to think so a few years back. Trent already mentioned he probably should have gone the Radiohead route and make a Kid A/Amnesiac release instead of a double album, and yeah, I think so. The right side especially would have benefited from one more year of pondering, I think. Left is very coherent, while I consider Right to be a bit all over the place (damnit Starfuckers, you really fuck it up, I love you but it's true).

[Halo Infinity]

When considering and listening to Trent's previous endeavors and influences prior to NIN, Everything wasn't surprising to me at all. And aside from liking it, I think that's also why it didn't bother me at all too.

[eayost]

While The Fragile has more individual highs than With Teeth, I think when considered as a total package, With Teeth is a better album. :/

[nowimdowninit]

Trent needs to go ahead and go all Ozzy and get a teleprompter so he can get all the words right in at least one show.

[Fred]

I don't like Hurt very much. I love the Johnny Cash cover and the duet with David Bowie, but the Nine Inch Nails version mostly bores me, and yes. I already knew the original by heart when Cash covered it.

I've also always found Something I Can Never Have incredibly dull. More so than Hurt. Would someone just give him what he thinks he can't have so he'll step away from the confounded piano and play... I dunno, Reptile or something? It's not that Trent can't write quiet songs. I like Right Where It Belongs, Lights In the Sky, Find My Way and everything on Still. Except, of course, for that one song. Sigh.

Both songs have gotten infinitely better on the 2013 tour, though. In fact, the Outside Lands version of SICNH is the only recording of it I actually like. And as for Hurt, I love that they've been ditching it at more than a few European gigs this time around. Because, you know, maybe there are other ways of ending a gig than with drunken singalong and lighters/mobile phones ablaze?

[eversonpoe]

I want to violently molest Ilan.

you know, you could have gone with "i want to make sweet, sweet love to ilan" or "seduce him" or something...but you had to go with a rape joke?

[tony.parente]

you know, you could have gone with "i want to make sweet, sweet love to ilan" or "seduce him" or something...but you had to go with a rape joke?

You mirin her controversial nine inch nails related post in the controversial nine inch nails opinions thread brah?

:o

[Sarah K]

I meant it in a BDSM consensual nonconsent way...

[Ichiro]

Why, oh why does Pilgrimage exist? If there ever was a single NIN song I could elide from an album, this disruptive blighter would be the one.

Nonetheless, I've come around to Even Deeper, a track I had never much cared for.

[Butterscotch]

Does disliking Pilgrimage count as a controversial opinion anymore? Because it actually seems to be a common opinion in this thread.

(for the record, I think it's an okay song)

[jesus]

I like "With Teeth"'s chorus

[Ichiro]

Does disliking Pilgrimage count as a controversial opinion anymore? Because it actually seems to be a common opinion in this thread.

(for the record, I think it's an okay song)

Yeah, that probably would have been better placed in the Random NIN Thoughs thread. For the record, I don't mind the song but it breaks the left side's flow too much for my taste. The Fragile, though its my favorite album, seems to suffer from a lack of pace and throwing in another instrumental at the end of the first disc (with Just like You Imagined and La Mer) doesn't help that either.

[Elke]

I LOVE PILGRIMAGE. I had no idea so many people disliked it! That's pretty sad...

[hani]

Pilgrimage is awesome. I never knew that so many NIN fans hate it. I always thought of it as a great concert opener, right there with Pinion and 999,999.

and about The Fragile being split in two - no way. never. it works so good when combined, sometimes I switch Left with Right and you know what? when the album starts with TWOIT and ends with TGB, it still works.

[tony.parente]

The only album better than With Teeth is The Fragile.

[allegro]

The sequencing (song order) on The Fragile is thanks to Bob E... I'm not gonna type his last name because he suddenly appears.

Like I said, I like Right. Only. And since there is no "narrative," the song order on Right means nothing. And Starfuckers works just fine in breaking up what could be monotony, works great. Thanks, BOB.

[eversonpoe]

The sequencing (song order) on The Fragile is thanks to Bob E... I'm not gonna type his last name because he suddenly appears.

Like I said, I like Right. Only. And since there is no "narrative," the song order on Right means nothing. And Starfuckers works just fine in breaking up what could be monotony, works great. Thanks, BOB.

is he the new beetlejuice?

[Tyson]

I like waiting five years for new albums. I didn't mind being bombarded with new stuff from 2005 to 2009, but after that and then going back to a five year wait I find the anticipation much more exhilarating. It could be nostalgia, but I find the build up to the new release much more satisfying than two "SURPRISE! NEW ALBUM!"s in the same year.

[allegro]

is he the new beetlejuice?
Pretty much, yeah. He has Google Alerts and POOF, he appears.

[screwdriver]

The sequencing (song order) on The Fragile is thanks to Bob E... I'm not gonna type his last name because he suddenly appears.

Like I said, I like Right. Only. And since there is no "narrative," the song order on Right means nothing. And Starfuckers works just fine in breaking up what could be monotony, works great. Thanks, BOB.

I don't think that's really fair. Since Bob E... used the analogy himself, I'll continue it. He was acting as editor to TR's "movie," and he provided the narrative flow. It was an act of collaboration. Doesn't mean the song order means nothing -- far from it. The grand auteur vision of NIN is sexy, but not really accurate, and acknowledging that doesn't subtract from the greatness.

[allegro]

I don't think that's really fair. Since Bob E... used the analogy himself, I'll continue it. He was acting as editor to TR's "movie," and he provided the narrative flow. It was an act of collaboration. Doesn't mean the song order means nothing -- far from it. The grand auteur vision of NIN is sexy, but not really accurate, and acknowledging that doesn't subtract from the greatness.
A "Narrative" means a story with a protagonist, a turning point, and a denouement. Bob may have assembled what TR described as basically a big mess of material he had no idea what to do with, but that's from the brain of Bob. Not Trent. Trent said his brain wasn't working properly and he had no idea what do with all that tons of material, and when Bob put it all together Trent said he cried. From relief. That's not saying that Bob shouldn't have stopped being a Yes Man and told Trent that a lot of that material should have been put aside for a separate project. Instead, Bob took the puzzle pieces and put it together to form Bob's Puzzle. Meanwhile, John Malm was over raiding some bank accounts instead of minding his client.

[Amaro]

Narrative aside, there was (and as there always is) still a musical flow to consider just as top priority. Bob's call, Trent left it up to him. And ultimately said yea. Definitely not a boring listen on Right, or Left, in my opinion. Beautiful messes.

[brokenfragility]

I like waiting five years for new albums. I didn't mind being bombarded with new stuff from 2005 to 2009, but after that and then going back to a five year wait I find the anticipation much more exhilarating. It could be nostalgia, but I find the build up to the new release much more satisfying than two "SURPRISE! NEW ALBUM!"s in the same year.

I agree with you, but an interesting point to make is how short-term the build-up/wait actually is. Sure its satisfying right now, but a couple years down the road no one will care how Hesitation Marks was released or marketed, it will be all about the music. Year Zero I think is the only one that really carries its marketing around with it because of the ARG, and it was the coolest way to market stuff IMO. I'm kind of disappointed in the stereotypical "release a couple singles and a video and make everyone wait for 3 months" way Hesitation Marks was marketed, even though, as you said, it was very satisfying to have to wait again after getting Ghosts and The Slip spur of the moment. I think some balance between the two would be ideal. I don't know, just talking out of my ass here, music marketing has intrigued me post-Year Zero.

[allegro]

Narrative aside, there was (and as there always is) still a musical flow to consider just as top priority. Bob's call, Trent left it up to him.
Well, yeah, "musical flow." Starfuckers does NOT mess up any "musical flow." Obviously, BOB agrees as he deliberately put it there. I'm assuming Bob knows better than most of us; I like the "musical flow" of Alice Cooper's "Love it to Death" and "Billion Dollar Babies" LPs, and I guess that's from the Brain of Bob, as well.

[Tyson]

I agree that from a marketing aspect YZ kicks all other NIN marketing in the behind, but I just like the waits. You have plenty of time to get to know an album before the next one is out. Although, some of this could come from the fact that nowadays you constantly have tweets, newsfeeds etc. talking about what's going on, where back in the pre-WT days you had no clue what TR was doing in those five years between albums, and the whole reveal as a surprise.

[TheRealNs1]

I think Welcome Oblivion and The Social Network score are some of the best albums Trent has ever released.

I love "Welcome Oblivion". Great album.

[[Shep]]

'Suck' bores the hell out of me, I wish Trent would stop performing it live.

[Butterscotch]

I actually like THTF a lot. It gets me pumped, and I love singing along with it.

[Amaro]

Well, yeah, "musical flow." Starfuckers does NOT mess up any "musical flow." Obviously, BOB agrees as he deliberately put it there. I'm assuming Bob knows better than most of us; I like the "musical flow" of Alice Cooper's "Love it to Death" and "Billion Dollar Babies" LPs, and I guess that's from the Brain of Bob, as well.

Starfuckers has to do with The Fragile, I think, no matter what people say about the essence or air about it. It compliments the narrative (...yes) AND the musical flow for where its at on Right, in the kinda same way as Everything does on the new record. Very generally same idea (because they're two way different songs). Bob put together a very interesting and very memorable sequence altogether with The Fragile, a massive part of how the album in particular was/is received.

There were very different takes on the track listing order, when it was to be a single side album; I have the sorta-rare Fragility book with the Expo board pictures of it in it, as well as some shots of some CD-Rs with TF tracks, which I suppose weren't necessarily actual intended listings. Nevertheless, other shots were attempted, and...cue Bob.

[Akuratyde]

I can't tell -- is it controversial to like With Teeth or to NOT like With Teeth?

I fucking love that album. Just speaking sonically, nothing else sounds like it and I think it gets ignored for how rad the production is. It merged garage drums, modular synths, piano, and super harsh guitars, and the whole thing works way better than it would if most anyone else tried that. I just fucking LOVE the way that record sounds.

I agree. It's nice to see some people praising "With Teeth". I see a lot of WT hate on here and don't really understand why. Personally, it's one of my favorite NIN albums. I think ManBurning makes a great point about looking at the tracklists and thinking about how many songs you like on a given record, but I also think you need to take into account how much you like those songs.

[eversonpoe]

I actually like THTF a lot. It gets me pumped, and I love singing along with it.

my cousin plays it for his 5-year-old as a "pump up" song before he (the five year old) plays hockey, which i find adorable.

[allegro]

Starfuckers has to do with The Fragile, I think, no matter what people say about the essence or air about it. It compliments the narrative (...yes)
If a narrative (story) exists, Bob is the narrator because he compiled a "story" from songs. But a "story" has to include the basic required elements of a "story." Starfuckers definitely fits into the "theme." In music, you can have a theme without a narrative, e.g. an entire album can be based on the "theme" of minor keys. I'm not disagreeing with you; I think we're just talking semantics.

[Elke]

A "Narrative" means a story with a protagonist, a turning point, and a denouement.

Actually, it doesn't. A narrative is a sequence of events, words, images, ideas... that are presented as a whole. They don't have to be a whole, they don't have to be in any particular order, they don't have to have anything to do with eachother... it's merely a presentation, a suggestion of succession.

If nothing else Bob E. (this is silly, btw) presented a sonic narrative, where several songs form longer sequences of sound, not merely flowing into eachother but echoing portions of the same or previous sequences - without doing the obvious, like linking La Mer and ITV or TDTWWA and TGB. In a way, The Fragile has stronger qualities of a sonic narrative than the very literal, story narrative of TDS.
And one could argue that lyrically, there's also something to be said for the position certain songs take, like SD/TDTWW, TWOIT or RWD.

I also think it's unfair to put the blame of 'too much music' on anyone's shoulders, in this case. If you're given all this sound, some of it just chopped up ideas, and the man who made them cannot tell you what's important and what's not, then how would you go about weeding it out? I can say that I think the album would have been better without Even Deeper, The Wretched, Where Is Everybody and Starfuckers - but what do I know? I don't know what it's about. Somehow, somewhere, it's about something Reznor wanted to communicate. And whether or not he failed epically at communicating it, is not up to someone else to decide. Maybe, to him, at that point, those four songs that I would like to cut out were crucial. Who knows? He certainly didn't, so how could someone else?

It would be interesting to see how the Treznor would arrange those songs today, which ones he'd kick out, which ones he'd change... But it would also be cheating, because part of what I love about that album (and yes, it is my favourite NIN album) is that it sounds like a beautiful mess. It resonates with me more than anything else any others musician has ever done, probably because it's so messy and it makes very little sense except when you just surrender yourself to it and listen. Because despite the gaps and the weirdness, it does flow. Just listening to it, it does sound like one long trip through something. It's just that there's no liner notes explaining you what that something is.

[/rant]

[slave2thewage]

Find My Way (Oneohtrix Point Never Remix) >>>>>>>>> Find My Way.

[Khrz]

Somehow, somewhere, it's about something Reznor wanted to communicate. And whether or not he failed epically at communicating it, is not up to someone else to decide.

And that's why art, I believe, is mostly in the eye of the beholder. Because be it in music, literature, sculputure, painting, the original intent is infinitely debatable, and more often than not the artist isn't clear about it him/herself. All that's left is the piece of art, and you receiving it.
On that regard, you alone can decide what's best, what to keep and what to discard. You can decide to keep the piece as is, to decipher the puzzle and see how it resonates with you, or you can decide that no, some part breaks the harmony in an awkward way.
That's what we do constantly in life. "Collect, reject". You have to be a zen master to accept things as they are and not question them. Even when it's a great record by an artist you love.

That my humble two cents on the subject anyway...

[Elke]

Because be it in music, literature, sculputure, painting, the original intent is infinitely debatable, and more often than not the artist isn't clear about it him/herself. All that's left is the piece of art, and you receiving it.

Actually, imho it's not. The original intent is one of the very few things about an artwork, aside from the original materiality of it, that doesn't change over time. That doesn't mean the artist always knows what that intent is, or a piece of art can't take on a generally accepted meaning that wasn't the intended one. But whatever went on in his head making The Fragile, that's his intent. And Reznor may not be able to say what it means, but that's kind of the point of art: it speaks for us, it says things we don't have words for. If we had words, we probably wouldn't need to make art.

Aside from whether I have the right to change a work of art after it's been put into the world (which we do agree on that yes: once it's in the public domain, it's everybody's), before it's finished it's the artist's, in this case Reznor's. And I don't think anyone working with or for him could make the call what's important and what not.

[Khrz]

The original intent is one of the very few things about an artwork, aside from the original materiality of it, that doesn't change over time.

But paradoxically, it's almost immediately lost once it's out in the world. I see what you mean though, and perhaps I've interjected too soon, as I think we're looking at the subject from opposite perspectives. I apologize for that, I thought you were talking about modifications/interpretations from the public eye, when in fact you're only talking about collaborators, am I right ?

[hobochic]

And The Fragile still causes controversy around its design and narrative (or lack of). For me there are a couple of songs that aren't favorites (even deeper & starfuckers) but I still see them as relevant to the "narrative" which is told through the fragmented sketches of the protagonists "frail" mind, perhaps in a psych ward. The album is also split in two parts: Before a suicide attempt that ends with "The Great Below" and post failed suicide that starts with "The Way Out Is Through". This explains the story-like quality of the left side, and the fragmented and diffuse aspect of the right side.

The narrative isn't as coherent compared to TDS but it is consistent in its obsessed, brave and sometimes desperate attempts to fix itself – just to see it all break down again, by habit, weakness and spite (The Big Come Down). The lyrics even reflect an infantile state of mind with spoiled and child-like ramblings of things around him in his search for finding reasons to blame, instead of taking responsibility (Somewhat Damaged, Where Is Everybody).

Starfuckers Inc, while not being my favorite, still has one element that makes it awesome IMO. While taking the piss out of celebrity with all its BS, it mocks MTV with that guitar riff that mirrors the very first MTV signature riff from the 80's (the one with the astronaut placing the MTV-flag on the moon) Am I alone in hearing this? :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182oUgBfoLE

[Elke]

But paradoxically, it's almost immediately lost once it's out in the world. I see what you mean though, and perhaps I've interjected too soon, as I think we're looking at the subject from opposite perspectives. I apologize for that, I thought you were talking about modifications/interpretations from the public eye, when in fact you're only talking about collaborators, am I right ?

Ooh, no need to apologize. And yes, you're right on both counts: I was talking about collaborators, and it is almost immediately lost, which is why people are so obsessed with discovering it, I think. [One of the most interesting courses I ever took, was about the material bond between a work of art and its creator, and linked it to relics and devotion; and I really do see that with Nine Inch Nails, where I feel people are incredibly respectful of Reznor's private life, but they're really hungry to understand the only material link to his art, which is what he says and thinks and feels about it.]
I'm going to stop being a weird geek now.

[ensanchecedor]

I don't know if this is the appropriate thread, but anyway:


After the 2000 London overdose, TR could have chosen between keep doing drugs or quitting them. If he had chosen the first one, He would have probably died and today would be remembered as some Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain popular culture immortal myth. He chose the sober way and that's why He has evolved this way, so far from the goth who wrote the becoming and stuff. In other words, he decided to stay alive and I respect that.

I bet it's the first time you've read this in this forum haha

[tony.parente]

I don't know if this is the appropriate thread, but anyway:


After the 2000 London overdose, TR could have chosen between keep doing drugs or quitting them. If he had chosen the first one, He would have probably died and today would be remembered as some Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain popular culture immortal myth. He chose the sober way and that's why He has evolved this way, so far from the goth who wrote the becoming and stuff. In other words, he decided to stay alive and I respect that.

I bet it's the first time you've read this in this forum haha

Not NIN related per-se but Marilyn Manson should have killed himself back in 2003 after the Golden Age of Grotesque. Thats the happiest he seems to have ever been and his life (from his own words in interviews) has been a downhill piece of shit since.

Would have preserved his career, legacy, and position in pop culture history.

[jessamineny]

I don't know if this is the appropriate thread, but anyway:


After the 2000 London overdose, TR could have chosen between keep doing drugs or quitting them. If he had chosen the first one, He would have probably died and today would be remembered as some Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain popular culture immortal myth. He chose the sober way and that's why He has evolved this way, so far from the goth who wrote the becoming and stuff. In other words, he decided to stay alive and I respect that.

I bet it's the first time you've read this in this forum haha

He did not get sober after the overdose. That's the heartbreaking thing about addicts.

His clean date was not until almost a year later, June 2001.

[ensanchecedor]

He did not get sober after the overdose. That's the heartbreaking thing about addicts.

His clean date was not until almost a year later, June 2001.

well, that's the worst part of an addiction. he didn't quit drugs radically i guess, but he probably start thinking different about his life. one of the things I find more relevant/funny about his lifestyle back then is the comment about the paramedics being called at the hotel in london when he was found unconscious; that sounds pretty old-school rockstar lifestyle, nothing to do with the 2013 trent reznor. I mean, he is a musician and just wants to deliver his music to his fans, although he dind't get clean up to a year later than that, it seems obvoius that the man got scared and chose life.

[Shadaloo]

I don't think The Collector's lyrics are all that bad.

I can listen to The Fragile front to back, Left to Right, and enjoy something about every track. It's not perfect, it's long, but there's absolutely something to love about every last one.

Every last one, every last one.

[Elke]

I don't think The Collector's lyrics are all that bad.

I'm going to second that. But then, I kind of like Trent's lyrics. Even though I know that objectively speaking they're pretty much not good.

[Vertigo]

I don't think The Collector's lyrics are all that bad.

I can listen to The Fragile front to back, Left to Right, and enjoy something about every track. It's not perfect, it's long, but there's absolutely something to love about every last one.

Every last one, every last one.

I feel that way about pretty much everything Trent's ever produced. Even in the songs I'm not so keen on, there's always at least a kernal of greatness lurking in it.

[Akuratyde]

I never minded the lyrics in "The Collector" but I can't say I care for the music at all.

[Butterscotch]

Controversial HTDA opinion:

I like The Space In Between and A Drowning more than anything on Welcome Oblivion.

[Akuratyde]

Controversial HTDA opinion:

I like The Space In Between and A Drowning more than anything on Welcome Oblivion.

I'll second that. I've only listened to "Welcome Oblivion" two or three times. It really didn't resonate with me at all and I felt the songs were very forgettable.

[Amaro]

"Everything" could be put on a 90s NIN mix and it'd work just fine.

[chroipahtz]

objectively speaking they're pretty much not good
I never understood objectively measuring lyrics. I still don't understand how people judge lyrics at all. His lyrics are simple, personal, and cryptic in their vagueness. I don't think they're bad because of that. I think they fit the songs just fine.

[marodi]

GAH! Sorry Magrão that was a totally accidental facepalm. I really didn't mean to do it. :(

[jesus]

I'm eagerly waiting for the "Everything" video

[TheRealNs1]

I'm eagerly waiting for the "Everything" video

it's already out there ;)

[tw3rbz]

it's already out there ;)
Nuh uh???? WHERE???????

[jesus]

Getting Smaller and The Collector are my favorite songs in WT, those are some of the last screaming recording of Trent

[elevenism]

i don't know if this is really controversial, but i really, truly fucking ADORE every NIN album and EVERY song (except Ghosts, which is PRETTY good)

[Ichiro]

People always refer to Complication as a filler track, which it probably is, but I love that little song. Its a nice comedown (Ha! Puns...Kill me.) from Starfuckers.

I think it was Magrao who said, a couple pages back, that the Right side was better. And after listening to the Fragile drunk (something I seem to be doing a lot recently with all NIN albums) it sounds so much more lively than the left side (I mean to say that it's a more fun listen, not better).

[Amaro]

People always refer to Complication as a filler track, which it probably is, but I love that little song. Its a nice comedown (Ha! Puns) from Starfuckers.

I think it was Magrao who said, a couple pages back, that the Right side was better. And after listening to the Fragile drunk (something I seem to be doing a lot recently with all NIN albums) it sounds so much more lively than the left side (and fun, not to say better).

That was @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76). But yeah, it's the more manic side of The Fragile. Or whatever.

Complication knockers... *shakes head* Nevermind you.

[Ichiro]

That was @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) . But yeah, it's a bit more manic than left, the more progressed side of The Fragile. Or whatever.

Complication knockers... *shakes head*

Oops, my mistake--I'm drunk and apparently too lazy to check the last couple of pages...

[eayost]

I'll second that. I've only listened to "Welcome Oblivion" two or three times. It really didn't resonate with me at all and I felt the songs were very forgettable.

Thirded. I do like Welcome Oblivion the track, but that was about it. Thought the EP was a lot more interesting in every fashion

[Volband]

- Year Zero Remixed has the best NIN remixes.

- Closer is so damn boring, especially the album version. How can anyone listen to that? The live version with the breakdown from The Only Time is the only one I don't fall asleep while listening to it.

- I like the sound of With Teeth (album), and I think it has the best individual NIN songs, and the most diverse ones within the same album.

- I like Gave Up, but the studio version of it is worse than Closer. Who mastered that shit?

- I'd turn gay for The Fragile-era Trent. I want to look like him...:(

- He should re-record PHM, because I want a decent studio version of songs like Terrible Lie and Head Like A Hole.

- Ruiner and Sunspots should be staple songs performed live.

[tw3rbz]

- Closer is so damn boring, especially the album version. How can anyone listen to that? The live version with the breakdown from The Only Time is the only one I don't fall asleep while listening to it.

Closer is a solid example of Nine Inch Nails. Not the lyrics, but the music is fucking genius.. dat progression

[Atu]

- He should re-record PHM, because I want a decent studio version of songs like Terrible Lie and Head Like A Hole.


Rehearsal tracks are decent enough for my taste.

[jesus]

- Year Zero Remixed has the best NIN remixes.
He should re-record PHM, because I want a decent studio version of songs like Terrible Lie and Head Like A Hole.


The Remastered version is a perfect studio recording of PHM, not decent , PERFECT, you can hear everything cristal clear

[Volband]

The Remastered version is a perfect studio recording of PHM, not decent , PERFECT, you can hear everything cristal clear
Yes, I can hear the poppy Terrible Lie perfectly, but I'd want something similiar to the live version.

[Highly Psychological]

Most of the songs from the Downward Spiral sound weak performed live. Shadows of their former selves. I understand it would be impossible to replicate live the complex sonic architectural majestic mind boggling soundscapes of The Downward Spiral in a live setting.
To me hearing those songs live, is like when you go and see a hip hop act or a dance/electronic act perform live with instruments, something does not feel the same.
Hurt, March of the Pigs work well live and the current version of Closer is the best ever, this tour is the first time in my opinion they have sounded good live but the other's not so much. Reptile has always sounded clunky, awkward with something vital missing in a live setting. Woodstock 94 is only performance of it i like.

[Inkë]

That's weird because I think Reptile keeps getting better live over the years. That song truly never ages. I love how the chorus sounds "emptier" than the verses, there's almost no bass. And no doubt why David Bowie and Peter Murphy chose to sing it. Lyrics make it sounds like a classic.

[fillow]

Closer sounded insanely good on Fragility tour, with everyone playing synths on top of Robin's guitar and with full ending (not like the shorter one they've been playing since WT).

[nowimdowninit]

- Closer is so damn boring, especially the album version. How can anyone listen to that? The live version with the breakdown from The Only Time is the only one I don't fall asleep while listening to it.


You're on your own there, for sure.

Much can be said about Closer by now, but nothing will ever take away my recollection of being 12, in 1994, hearing Closer on the FM radio riding amid South Georgia cotton fields. The dropping of the f-bomb, the synths, the whole aesthetic made my eyes open wider than they ever had before.

Closer may be compulsory for NIN by now, but it'll always be a definitive track.

[Christopher Morris]

I didn't really like Mike Garson's contributions to the live tracks back in 2009.

This doesn't mean I don't like Mike Garson. He is an amazing musician, I've never seen anyone play a piano like him, but I felt they took away from the songs rather than complimented them.

I will admit, though, I did quite like his parts on Just Like You Imagined because he kept quite faithful to the album recording.

Also Closer's live incarnation is missing the amazing synth part played just after the chorus - in the past it has been played as a guitar riff and sounds weak, on the 2013 tour the sample is played but it just doesn't sound right. To me that synth part MAKES Closer, and since it's absence I've just not been able to enjoy the live version.

[Amaro]

Closer>Closer w/ TOT breakdown, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever...evermore.

[Elke]

I never understood objectively measuring lyrics. I still don't understand how people judge lyrics at all. His lyrics are simple, personal, and cryptic in their vagueness. I don't think they're bad because of that. I think they fit the songs just fine.

They also rhyme in the oddest places, contain more grammatical errors than my students' papers and rely quite heavily on the same three images (decay, isolation, body fluids). When you judge lyrics merely on how well they are crafted, as little musical poems, Reznor's fall quite short of the mark. He ain't Cave, Cohen, Dylan, Mitchell or Smith, for instance. Hell, he's not even Michael Stipe, and we all know he improvises most of his stuff.

That said, I do love them terribly. Probably because they're very simple and effective, and I guess a tiny bit because he seems so self conscious and worried about them. He could easily ask someone else to write them, or put poems to music or just make all instrumental tracks, but he chooses to put them out there, which I find quite brave and endearing at the same time, which in turn is quite horribly patronizing of me but whatever. I love them. But they're not good. Effective, and moving, but not good.
[Like a kid's drawing of his family, where everything has the wrong colour and the people are taller than the house and the dog looks like a cow. Objectively, it's an insult to the art of drawing. It's probably also amazingly beautiful if that's your kid / your family / your cow.]

[That was not at all a controversial NIN opinion though. Sorry. I'll try to shut up now.]

[Also: Closer FTW. It's only boring because you know it so well that you don't listen to it properly anymore. Just turn the volume way, way up and listen to it. It's divine.]

[Ripe(withdecay)]

I hated how during the "Wave Goodbye" tour that Trent had all the guests. He could've really played more rare tracks instead of a bunch of cover songs.

[sheepdean]

I hated how during the "Wave Goodbye" tour that Trent had all the guests. He could've really played more rare tracks instead of a bunch of cover songs.
..but the cover songs are rarely, if ever played. making them rare.

[Halo Infinity]

Closer>Closer w/ TOT breakdown, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever...evermore.
As much as I actually like both versions, it sometimes just makes me wish that he'd play The Only Time. It's such a tease. :p

[Amaro]

As much as I actually like both versions, it sometimes just makes me wish that he'd play The Only Time. It's such a tease. :p

Absolutely. The Only Time is the shit.

It'd probably mean the reintroduction of the real Closer, too.

[Scarlet Siren]

Sometimes I think Trent's 'emo hair' doesn't look too bad...

There, I said it! Face palm away!

[Halo Infinity]

I really liked the undercut he used to have as seen in the Head Like A Hole video. I have a hard time choosing between that hairstyle and the one he had in The Perfect Drug video. But from the looks of it, I think the top three favorite hairstyles had to be the hair he had during The Downward Spiral era, the buzz cut he had during the later part of 2005 up until now, (Although, he did let it grow in a little bit more and more, and I think he even had a buzz cut in 1990. I saw it in a picture of him being with the Revolting Cocks.) and the hairstyle he had during The Fragile era, which can sort of be similar to the hairstyle he had in 1991.

I also liked how he mentioned his "bad haircuts playing an important role in his career overview" in a slightly jocular manner when he received the ASCAP Golden Note Award.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkMZ49m6A5Q

So in terms of haircuts... perhaps it can be controversial to like the undercut too? It is in fact one of my favorite hairstyles on him. :p

[Brocephus]

I posted my thoughts in the Hesitation Marks review thread, but now that I've had a few exchanges with people and thought about it more I can sum up my thoughts and post them here because it seems like the perfect place: I don't agree with the decision to bring back NIN and I'm not a fan of the concept behind Hesitation Marks. He should stick to doing excellent soundtrack work and pursue HTDA further. I don't hate Hesitation Marks, I just don't think it's very good. The whole thing seems like a step backwards...except for the new live show. That's amazing. So why not do that with HTDA? Keep moving forward with that.

Maybe, ultimately and ironically, Hesitation Marks will end up killing NIN for good and he will indeed pursue those other projects further. Maybe that's his intent..?

[WorzelG]

I posted my thoughts in the Hesitation Marks review thread, but now that I've had a few exchanges with people and thought about it more I can sum up my thoughts and post them here because it seems like the perfect place: I don't agree with the decision to bring back NIN and I'm not a fan of the concept behind Hesitation Marks. He should stick to doing excellent soundtrack work and pursue HTDA further. I don't hate Hesitation Marks, I just don't think it's very good. The whole thing seems like a step backwards...except for the new live show. That's amazing. So why not do that with HTDA? Keep moving forward with that.

Maybe, ultimately and ironically, Hesitation Marks will end up killing NIN for good and he will indeed pursue those other projects further. Maybe that's his intent..?

I remember an interview with him, but I forget where, where he said that he missed the buzz of being onstage and had never replicated that - I imagine it is very intoxicating to perform live, but of course not wanting to do a 'greatest hits' thing, he brought back the music. I imagine they will still do htda on the side.
I couldn't disagree more about the album, I think its the best one since The Fragile - but of course will have to wait and see if it stands the test of time

[steelnails95]

I love Closer, every single version of it. Probably my favorite song period.

[Brocephus]

I remember an interview with him, but I forget where, where he said that he missed the buzz of being onstage and had never replicated that - I imagine it is very intoxicating to perform live, but of course not wanting to do a 'greatest hits' thing, he brought back the music. I imagine they will still do htda on the side.

When viewed from that angle, I guess I can't fault him for wanting to come back. Still...do it with HTDA. It looked like HTDA was going to be the post-NIN anyway and of course it would contain elements of the previous work. It happens all the time when artists kill off projects and start new ones. But the surprise return of NIN right after the first HTDA album emerged leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The album being self-aware and addressing this very topic doesn't sway my opinion either. It just seems like he was on a certain trajectory with HTDA and the soundtrack work and now...those won't be given a chance to grow.

[WorzelG]

When viewed from that angle, I guess I can't fault him for wanting to come back. Still...do it with HTDA. It looked like HTDA was going to be the post-NIN anyway and of course it would contain elements of the previous work. It happens all the time when artists kill off projects and start new ones. But the surprise return of NIN right after the first HTDA album emerged leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The album being self-aware and addressing this very topic doesn't sway my opinion either. It just seems like he was on a certain trajectory with HTDA and the soundtrack work and now...those won't be given a chance to grow.

I think that NIN has a very definite shelf life, particularly live, as it is so intense (and aggressive) so personally I think it makes sense to do more with NIN earlier rather than later, after all he has the rest of his life to do soundtracks in the studio and the less aggressive HTDA

[ComradeCornhole]

Regarding TR's lyrics: I think he writes with the intention of being very open to interpretation and giving every possible listener a sort of clear canvass onto which they can project their own experience. Also, I think the simplicity of the lyrics is a deliberate juxtaposition with the complexity and difficulty of the musical backdrop. I think he is very aware that this often results in his lyrics being called "poor". But my thought is that he considers what is best in service of the song/album and the listener's ability to connect and identify with it. It isn't as though in interviews and whatnot that he isn't well-spoken or possessing a limited vocabulary. Tl;Dr: TR knows what he's doing with his lyrics and could write "better" lyrics if he thought it would better serve the music.

[r_z]

TR knows what he's doing with his lyrics and could write "better" lyrics if he thought it would better serve the music.

That's a very favorable way to look at this. I'm not sure if this is true or if he's simply not that good at it. Signs strongly point to the latter. Unless you can provide some links. Thx in advance.

[nowimdowninit]

Regarding TR's lyrics: I think he writes with the intention of being very open to interpretation and giving every possible listener a sort of clear canvass onto which they can project their own experience. Also, I think the simplicity of the lyrics is a deliberate juxtaposition with the complexity and difficulty of the musical backdrop. I think he is very aware that this often results in his lyrics being called "poor". But my thought is that he considers what is best in service of the song/album and the listener's ability to connect and identify with it. It isn't as though in interviews and whatnot that he isn't well-spoken or possessing a limited vocabulary. Tl;Dr: TR knows what he's doing with his lyrics and could write "better" lyrics if he thought it would better serve the music.

Well, ComradeCornhole, that's one way to be an apologist.

But seriously, I just wanted to address someone as "comrade cornhole" just once.

[Halo Infinity]

Regarding TR's lyrics: I think he writes with the intention of being very open to interpretation and giving every possible listener a sort of clear canvass onto which they can project their own experience. Also, I think the simplicity of the lyrics is a deliberate juxtaposition with the complexity and difficulty of the musical backdrop. I think he is very aware that this often results in his lyrics being called "poor". But my thought is that he considers what is best in service of the song/album and the listener's ability to connect and identify with it. It isn't as though in interviews and whatnot that he isn't well-spoken or possessing a limited vocabulary. Tl;Dr: TR knows what he's doing with his lyrics and could write "better" lyrics if he thought it would better serve the music.
I was actually thinking about something along those lines myself. I also don't mean this as a jab to anybody, but perhaps some people were expecting his lyrics to be something like what you'd expect from Depeche Mode, Tool, Radiohead, or Tori Amos. (Which I could actually understand to start with.) It's merely a guess on my part.

[ComradeCornhole]

I've got nothing to back up what I'm saying beyond the way he speaks normally. That point being: He seems intelligent and well-spoken enough --not to mention VERY well-versed in great musicians who DO have "great" lyrics-- that he knows what many consider to be "good" lyrics and could approximate something like them if he thought it was in the best interest of the listener's ability to connect. I'm trying not to grab at any string I can to be an apologist for his lyrics. Really, I roll my eyes at his apparent fondness for exact rhyming at every turn and what appears to be a relatively short vocabulary list as much as anyone. I just find it difficult to believe that someone as meticulous and self-aware as he is isn't doing it for what he believes is a good reason. As I said before, he is an admitted fan of several great songwriters, and I'm sure he knows what their lyrics look like next to his and isn't so obtuse as to not see the differences. He either views the way some will see his lyrics as a necessary sacrifice for connecting in a very visceral way with more people, or.... well, I dunno... how would you all account for it all? That he really isn't self-aware and has never really noticed his lyrics next to Bowie, Byrne, Keenan, Amos, etc... and that he actually thinks his stuff is objectively as "good"?

[ComradeCornhole]

Continued: I think some of his sentiment may be that lyrics are the first thing that most listeners pay attention to and connect with, and that lyrics that are too complex or specific to the writer's intention can be a big roadblock to connecting with the music. I dunno... Rebut me. I'm really interested.

[Transfixed]

I agree with you, Comrade. In all interviews he is very well-spoken and has a fluid intelligence which comes across clearly and sharply. So it makes little sense that he just goes all DERP MODE when writing lyrics and fails to realize that he's not using bigger, broader vocabulary words. I think it likely is an artistic decision, rather than a shortcoming of songwriting ability.

That said - I DO think it would serve him well, at this point, to broaden his writing and be a bit more literary/poetic in his lyrics. He doesn't have to be as complex as MJK by any means, but the basic rhyme-scheme and continued repetition of the same lyrical themes is at this point just about his only drawback. In every other way it seems he's at the top of his game, especially when it comes to production value. Seems he learned a few things scoring films! HM's production value is off the freaking charts. FLAC + Headphones = audiophile bliss.

[nineismine]

I posted my thoughts in the Hesitation Marks review thread, but now that I've had a few exchanges with people and thought about it more I can sum up my thoughts and post them here because it seems like the perfect place: I don't agree with the decision to bring back NIN and I'm not a fan of the concept behind Hesitation Marks. He should stick to doing excellent soundtrack work and pursue HTDA further. I don't hate Hesitation Marks, I just don't think it's very good. The whole thing seems like a step backwards...except for the new live show. That's amazing. So why not do that with HTDA? Keep moving forward with that.

Maybe, ultimately and ironically, Hesitation Marks will end up killing NIN for good and he will indeed pursue those other projects further. Maybe that's his intent..?


Maybe I'm bias because I don't agree with your evaluation at all. The sentiment of "Hesitation marks may end up killing NIN" Maybe I'm not understanding your intent but if you look around you see the majority of the fan base has been re-invigorated by Hesitation Marks. It is only the few that are of similar opinion to yours so I guess I see a major jump in your logic. (unless I misunderstand what you are saying)

[Transfixed]

- Most of HM sounds like it wants to be "My Violent Heart." Ummm, kay.




Say what now? My Violent heart is oneof my least favorite NIN tracks ever, and I love HM... which sounds nothing like it. How are you even comparing the two? HM is highly varied within itself, so how could the whole album sound like any one thing in particular, let alone My Violent Heart? Hmmm.....

[Amaro]

Funny one--I find MVH to be one of the very few good songs from YZ and I quite like HM. I dunno about a clear similarity between the song and the new album, but okay... Maybe. *shrug*

[ComradeCornhole]

I agree with you, Comrade. In all interviews he is very well-spoken and has a fluid intelligence which comes across clearly and sharply. So it makes little sense that he just goes all DERP MODE when writing lyrics and fails to realize that he's not using bigger, broader vocabulary words. I think it likely is an artistic decision, rather than a shortcoming of songwriting ability.

That said - I DO think it would serve him well, at this point, to broaden his writing and be a bit more literary/poetic in his lyrics. He doesn't have to be as complex as MJK by any means, but the basic rhyme-scheme and continued repetition of the same lyrical themes is at this point just about his only drawback. In every other way it seems he's at the top of his game, especially when it comes to production value. Seems he learned a few things scoring films! HM's production value is off the freaking charts. FLAC + Headphones = audiophile bliss.

Agreed on all counts.

[thefragile_jake]

I love the shit out of Came Back Haunted still. I really think that David Lynch video did the song more justice for me because it put weird, abstract and almost disturbing visuals in my head every time I hear it...which it was Nine Inch Nails always did to me when I was younger.

[Little_Dreamer]

- I like Twist more than Ringfinger
- I love most of Trents lyrics

[Inkling]

Happy for the Cortini / Aaron North praise in this thread.
I don´t know if it´s controversial at all, but to me Niggy Tardust is a much better "Trent Reznor album" than both YZ and TS. When it comes to songs and production I think in many ways HM has the same sort of flow/warmth. I love that.
I´m also very happy that TR is actually singing again. Bring me more of that falsetto!

[Tyson]

I think he even had a buzz cut in 1990. I saw it in a picture of him being with the Revolting Cocks.)

According to Al Jourgensen's book, that buzz cut in 90 was against TR's will. Apparently, he and Vrenna(?) went through some hazing when they were with the Revolting Cocks, and one night Al bet them that he and one of the other guys (Scaccia, I think) could drink Trent and Chris under the table. Losers had to shave their heads. Al cheated and slipped them something to give himself a leg up. While they were passed out Al set upon them, but he only got Trent's head and one eyebrow done before he woke up, ran to a mirror and started screaming like a girl.

[Vertigo]

Al Jourgensen, world's nicest guy.

[Halo Infinity]

According to Al Jourgensen's book, that buzz cut in 90 was against TR's will. Apparently, he and Vrenna(?) went through some hazing when they were with the Revolting Cocks, and one night Al bet them that he and one of the other guys (Scaccia, I think) could drink Trent and Chris under the table. Losers had to shave their heads. Al cheated and slipped them something to give himself a leg up. While they were passed out Al set upon them, but he only got Trent's head and one eyebrow done before he woke up, ran to a mirror and started screaming like a girl.
I still have yet to check out The Lost Gospels even though I sometimes doubt the truthiness in Al's words. (As I always like to check into Paul Barker's side of the story too.) -And sorry, I don't have any other controversial NIN opinions as of right now. I just want to add to that.- :p

[imail724]

Maybe that story is true, but I always assumed that the reason Trent had a buzz cut at the time was because he had dreadlocks prior and the only way to get rid of them is to chop them off.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Halo Infinity]

Oh, I actually came up with one just now. However, it probably would've been a lot more controversial in 2002-2005, so perhaps it really isn't in a way. I'm also among those fans that don't see downloading leaks as a big fuck you to NIN, especially if they're going to buy the actual album anyway. This is coming from a guy that likes to buy albums when he gets into a band's music, and has even gone as far to buy NIN albums for others as presents in the past.

-Edit-

On second thought, I don't think it's even controversial right now, but if it were to have been posted in 2002-2005, it would've been very likely for it to be.

[Vertigo]

Oh, I actually came up with one just now. However, it probably would've been a lot more controversial in 2002-2005, so perhaps it really isn't in a way. I'm also among those fans that don't see downloading leaks as a big fuck you to NIN, especially if they're going to buy the actual album anyway. This is coming from a guy that likes to buy albums when he gets into a band's music, and has even gone as far to buy NIN albums for others as presents in the past.

I used to view piracy as a method of sampling albums to decide if I wanted to buy them, but Youtube provides a legal avenue for that now (or Spotify if you enjoy paying money that won't reach the artist).

[Amaro]

I used to view piracy as a method of sampling albums to decide if I wanted to buy them, but Youtube provides a legal avenue for that now (or Spotify if you enjoy paying money that won't reach the artist).

P2P is more reliable than YouTube for sampling music, and with better chances of audio quality options. YouTube is a last resort for me.

Spotify...no comment.

My guess is Trent doesn't even see people downloading his illegally shared music before pre-ordering/ordering as a "fuck you", it's just way it is now. Really now. We can easily try before we buy. Hopefully those kinds of music fans give him what they feel he deserves, to buy or not to buy based on if they like it or not. That simple. (In a perfect world.) That's what I do for every band/artist I sample. Too much music out there, not enough time in life to take it in on the slow.

[curly21029]

-Into the Void is NIN's best single.

-Just Like You Imagined and Every Day is Exactly the Same should be setlist staples -- tied for most underrated live renditions.

-Hurt hasn't made for a good show closer since the Fragility era and should be buried in the middle of the setlist. In This Twilight is the best closer NIN has had since that time period.

[hobochic]

I know that "I'm looking forward to joining you, finally" is a personal song to Reznor, but I think it's time for it to become a live piece. It would add an interesting tone to the set and it would move in a way that hasn't felt as personal since the very first times Hurt was performed.

This current lineup would do it justice, and it would fit perfectly in with the other percussion heavy songs.

Oh, and Happiness in Slavery - never leave that one out.

[Transfixed]

-Into the Void is NIN's best single.



Whoa... that IS contrversial.

Really?

That's one of my least favorite NIN tunes ever. Just always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason.

[littlemonkey613]

I think Trent's lyrics are rad and only after hearing bitching on the boards did I ever even consider that they might "suck". Ive always thought he went for tone and pure feeling as opposed to specific imagery and it was one of the things that drew me to the music. The instrumentation is what draws the picture and the words just hammer the emotion home. I think its obvious that they are purposely vague and ambiguous. He does project specific imagery when he wants to, and I think its always really effective because he does it so sparingly. (Songs like Right Where It Belongs, While Im Still Here, Hurt etc.) It's also no coincidence that those are album closers.

Anyways his words are really really accessible and easy to apply the narrative of your own life/ any fantasy the music makes you think of. Daydreaming while listening to NIN is fucking fantastic for that reason.

[ericy210]

Would you rather have trent hire a co-writer for lyrics?
i cut him some lack for writing, performing, and producing the whole damn body of recorded and live work (slight exaggeration, but who else does this for such complicated music?)

[Elke]

He seems intelligent and well-spoken enough --not to mention VERY well-versed in great musicians who DO have "great" lyrics-- that he knows what many consider to be "good" lyrics and could approximate something like them if he thought it was in the best interest of the listener's ability to connect. ...and that he actually thinks his stuff is objectively as "good"?

He seems incredibly self conscious about his lyrics in interviews, especially around W_T. So I don't think he thinks of himself as the next Cohen. I seem to remember one interview where he talked about the concept of Bleedthrough being mostly instrumental, because of how he felt about his lyrics.

That said: he is clearly a very intelligent man, and a very articulate one. But there's a huge difference between being able to express your thoughts when you're conversing with someone, and being able to put a feeling, an idea, a memory, an emotion - especially if it's personal - into the incredibly constricted form of lyrical poetry. Just to pull off rhyming without sounding like you dug up a thesaurus is difficult enough. To find images that communicate your ideas, put them into words that you can actually sing to the melody in your head, put those words into a schematic or structure that makes sense... It's quite complex.

Like I said, I love his lyrics. I really, honest to God do. There's depth there, and honesty, and beauty, and it works with the music.

[Ripe(withdecay)]

I think Deep is the best NIN song ever. I really love that song.

[digshake]

- Trent's lyrics have been pretty bad since The Fragile era, save for one or two songs on each release
- I think the lyrics to All Time Low are especially bad. Like "Where is Everybody" bad.
- I don't listen to NIN for the lyrics and I actually think All Time Low is an OK song despite the above
- Running is one of my favorite tracks on HM
- Most of the singles in the past 10 years have been my least favorite tracks from their respective releases
- I've been to 4 NIN shows and the show at the Aragon Ballroom during the Wave Goodbye tour was my least favorite.

[elevenism]

WHOA whoa whao digshake. WTF do you mean "where is everybody" bad? those are some of my favorite lyrics by anybody. do you KNOW the lyrics? man...i'm confused. ok the chorus might get a little gimmicky but the verses are chock full of wholesome lyrical goodness.
And All Time Low isn't OK, it's cunt-ramming awesome, in the vein of David Bowie's Fashion or Manson's "i don't like the drugs the drugs the drugs" or whatever the manson song is called.

As far as the singles being the least favorite songs, i'll see your 10 years and raise you 20

[Halo Infinity]

My guess is Trent doesn't even see people downloading his illegally shared music before pre-ordering/ordering as a "fuck you", it's just way it is now. Really now. We can easily try before we buy. Hopefully those kinds of music fans give him what they feel he deserves, to buy or not to buy based on if they like it or not. That simple. (In a perfect world.) That's what I do for every band/artist I sample. Too much music out there, not enough time in life to take it in on the slow.
I've also figured the same thing as well. It's just that I noticed that the overall opinions of that matter seemed to be more mixed and controversial back in 2002-2005 when Trent barely said anything about being okay with file-sharing. I could also understand why it would be that way during the earlier years of the old ETS considering Trent's stance on Napster back in 1999 wasn't so long ago at the time, where file-sharing in general was really a big fuck you to him at the time too. And as someone that likes to collect CDs, I'd also like to know what I'm getting into before I shell out cash for it since I also know all too well what it's like to get an album I didn't get into, or even like at the slightest. I totally get what you mean by that as well.

[xolotl]

So I had the idea that I wanted to trawl through this thread and collect each "controversial" opinion and assign it a numeric value to rate its controversialness. A post in favor of a point is +1, liking that post is a +0.5, facepalming is -0.5. Posting to disagree is a -1 (a facepalm or like on a disagreement-post would be +/- 0.5, etc, etc). The lowest number, in the end, would be the most controversial. (Some fuzzy combining of opinions would of course be necessary in many cases.)

But, er, yeah, that turns out to be a hell of a lot more work than I'm willing to do. Someone else get to it, yeah?

By the time I gave up, though, this one was the clear frontrunner: "NIN is the poor man's Stabbing Westward," with a score of -1.5. (And OSLIN technically went both ways on the argument! Internally controversial!)

[allegro]

Like I said, I love his lyrics. I really, honest to God do. There's depth there, and honesty, and beauty, and it works with the music.
His lyrics on the first 3 records are the main reason why I love those first 3 records. There's some really great stuff, there. I say this as a really boring English Lit major and Sigma Tau Delta member who studied Milton for a full year.

[chroipahtz]

(Into the Void)'s one of my least favorite NIN tunes ever. Just always rubbed me the wrong way for some reason.

Now that​ is controversial. (Seriously, what is wrong with your ears)

[Transfixed]

Now that​ is controversial. (Seriously, what is wrong with your ears)

Well, it was the first time Trent ever used that "sound", that vibe and feel for a track. If someone is relatively new to NIN, Into The Void seems to fit perfectly into their catalog, but when The Fragile first came out, it was very jarring, and while kinda "cool", I never really dug the groove, the music, the lyrics etc. It seemed out of place and kinda random, much as Starfuckers did, which many people have noted.

[Halo Infinity]

Were there really people here saying that Hesitation Marks was better than The Fragile?That has to count. Then again, I also recall opinions stating that With Teeth was also better than The Fragile. Not that I'm trying to argue, but it was shocking in some ways, and well, mission accomplished, since that's controversy for you. :p

Oh yes, and like my opinion regarding the original versions of Pretty Hate Machine and The Downward Spiral, perhaps it's best to just check out the regular version of Hesitation Marks first. I also forgot to mention With Teeth the last time as well. I guess I just think it's better to have the regular albums grace the ears of first-time listeners.

[mindviolation]

- The Fragile > TDS by 100 miles
- God Given and Head Down are some of my favorite tracks post Fragile era
- We're in this Together is the best NIN single ever
- I love TF but I really hate Pilgrimage. I can never like it.
- I really like The Slip
- I am sick and tired of listening to Hurt live. I think the NIN closing song should be Leaving Hope
- I love The Collector
- I am getting tired of Wish being played live also.
- I went to the final Wiltern show during Wave Goodbye and told everyone I knew who went to the Echoplex show (which was originally the last show) to go suck it cause my show became the last one.

The end.

[somewhat_]

I'm not sure how controversial this is:

This setlist needs to change for the Tension tour! While I appreciate certain variations of tracks they are performing and I have been spoiled to see 20 shows since the year 2000, I'm going to be fairly disappointed to only have the new HM songs and Sanctified as the only new material I witness on the 3 upcoming shows I attend.

[sheepdean]

I'm not sure how controversial this is:

This setlist needs to change for the Tension tour! While I appreciate certain variations of tracks they are performing and I have been spoiled to see 20 shows since the year 2000, I'm going to be fairly disappointed to only have the new HM songs and Sanctified as the only new material I witness on the 3 upcoming shows I attend.
I disagree so much. The band isn't playing the show for the dozen people who are going to every show on the tour, they're playing it for the people who are only going to one, the people there, that night. So they'll play the new songs that work best, the ones people want to hear. It'd be great for bootleggers and crazies to have new stuff every night, but harder for the band, harder for the production team and most fans wouldn't appreciate it and instead wish he'd played Closer, Hurt, THTF or whatever he had to drop to fit in Videodrones; Questions.

[somewhat_]

I disagree so much. The band isn't playing the show for the dozen people who are going to every show on the tour, they're playing it for the people who are only going to one, the people there, that night. So they'll play the new songs that work best, the ones people want to hear. It'd be great for bootleggers and crazies to have new stuff every night, but harder for the band, harder for the production team and most fans wouldn't appreciate it and instead wish he'd played Closer, Hurt, THTF or whatever he had to drop to fit in Videodrones; Questions.

I'm not really looking for a varied setlist from night to night. I understand that the production will probably limit the setlist being changed up every night. I should have made my point more clearly; The setlist for Tension 2013 needs to be somewhat drastically different from the setlist from NIN2013.

Here is an example of songs that are somewhat rare or could make their live debut:

Sunspots
And All that Could Have Been
Leaving Hope
Happiness in Slavery
Please
The Perfect Drug (I know it's not going to happen)
My Violent Heart
Demon Seed

Hell, the setlist itself will be longer this time around and there are plenty of songs that could be swapped out without getting rid of all the "greatest hits".

[sheepdean]

A song making its live debut isn't as important as a show being good though. Why do Leaving Hope if he wants loud arenas? It would be lost. And remember, having a song played only once or twice still means dozens of hours of rehearsal time for that track, both by band and production team. So long as he wants the (gorgeous) stage effects, he'll not be able to do as much variation.

[Dethbryte]

i think aaron north was nin's best live guitarist and i love the extra flair he added to songs.
especially seen in closer.
(why yes i'm listening to the with teeth rehearsals all over again)

[Halo Infinity]

As much as I'm with the overall idea of introducing most first-time listeners to Pretty Hate Machine through The Downward Spiral and/or The Fragile, I also thought that it's also a good idea to throw With Teeth into the mix as well. And from the looks of it, sometimes Broken and The Downward Spiral seem to drive first-time listeners away from NIN, and Pretty Hate Machine, The Fragile, and With Teeth seem to be better starting points. Year Zero and anything beyond Year Zero seem like they'd be better to get into after all the older stuff, but of course it also depends on the first-time listener's tastes as well.

Perhaps there could also be a thread on introducing NIN to new listeners. I'm not sure if there already is one though, but if not, perhaps I'll make one. :p

[digshake]

Haven't I been hearing about some new album something something hesitation something?

Call me crazy but I'd like to see those songs debuted during the upcoming tour. I know we've gotten a few already but I'd like to see him play half the album or more at each stop.

[chroipahtz]

Haven't I been hearing about some new album something something hesitation something?

Call me crazy but I'd like to see those songs debuted during the upcoming tour. I know we've gotten a few already but I'd like to see him play half the album or more at each stop.
Well, there are 3 weeks until the next show (2.5 weeks until that rehearsal show), so hopefully they are spending this time learning some new songs for the tour. (Cross your fingers.)

[mindviolation]

I'm not really looking for a varied setlist from night to night. I understand that the production will probably limit the setlist being changed up every night. I should have made my point more clearly; The setlist for Tension 2013 needs to be somewhat drastically different from the setlist from NIN2013.

Here is an example of songs that are somewhat rare or could make their live debut:

Sunspots
And All that Could Have Been
Leaving Hope
Happiness in Slavery
Please
The Perfect Drug (I know it's not going to happen)
My Violent Heart
Demon Seed

Hell, the setlist itself will be longer this time around and there are plenty of songs that could be swapped out without getting rid of all the "greatest hits".


Honestly if he just added We're In This Together and In Two live, I would be happy. I think he should play either Disappointed or Find My Way and not both of them. They are both kind of similar in terms of pace. I want to see more of the faster songs from HM such as In Two or Satellite. I already love Copy of A live. And no, TPD won't happen lol.

[somewhat_]

A song making its live debut isn't as important as a show being good though. Why do Leaving Hope if he wants loud arenas? It would be lost. And remember, having a song played only once or twice still means dozens of hours of rehearsal time for that track, both by band and production team. So long as he wants the (gorgeous) stage effects, he'll not be able to do as much variation.

You might be right about Leaving Hope being lost in loud arenas.

My hope is that they had already rehearsed a fairly different set list for the Tension tour (based around the different production) before the NIN2013 tour even started, especially since they only have three weeks to rehearse between tours.

I'm still somewhat hopeful:




TR:

"But you can get comfortable playing to your own audience all the time. We're about to embark on an arena tour in the U.S. here — that will be our audience. And what's good about that is I feel we can get away with more things, we can stretch your attention span further, I can play songs that I feel are more challenging. But you're also walking into a home-court advantage every night. Sometimes it's humbling and can be beneficial in a sense that you still have something that you have to prove."

[joplinpicasso]

Copy Of A and In Two are two of the finest, smartest NIN songs ever.

Into The Void taught me, on a personal level, that I can dislike and loath certain negative aspects of myself but I could dance them away and everything would be alright. It's such a cheeky yet dark song, I think it's nearly the perfect NIN song. Done.

[Transfixed]

He could play In Two 15 times in a row and I'd call it a kick ass show.

[Emil Dorbell]

Copy Of A and In Two are two of the finest, smartest NIN songs ever.

No doubt about it.

[slave2thewage]

i think aaron north was nin's best live guitarist and i love the extra flair he added to songs.
especially seen in closer.
(why yes i'm listening to the with teeth rehearsals all over again)
Aaron made me realize how painfully banal Robin's playing is.

[dlb]

The whole with_teeth tour went on for too long IMHO eventhough I love the record. I'd rather have a live DVD of the club shows together with more rehearsal footage than a documentation of the winter 2005 and especially summer 2006 tour.

Looking back it also was damn time that Josh Eustis joined the band! No band member has managed it to catch my attention as quickly as he did. He fits in perfectly!

My dream lineup right now would be:

TR (wait, what?)
Eustis (look above)
Freese (I find it pretty admirable how many instruments Ilan can play and how he fits in the show, but on the drums you can't go without Freese)
Cortini/Clouser (guess I'd go with Cortini, but Clouser I hold dear, also: theremin!!!)
Finck (there are certain songs where I enjoy North's playing more, but Finck is my overall choice)

In the long run Trent has always made the right choices when it comes to the lineup as each era demanded a different setup and fit his needs. Guess that's another reason why live NIN is so special as I would have loved to see every lineup at least once. Hence why the current line up is always "the best one yet" among fans. :P

[r_z]

In the long run Trent has always made the right choices when it comes to the lineup as each era demanded a different setup and fit his needs. Guess that's another reason why live NIN is so special as I would have loved to see every lineup at least once. Hence why the current line up is always "the best one yet" among fans. :P

So far it's rather been "the best one yet" among Reznors.

[nemesiswontdie]

I really think that Terrible Lie should have been the first single instead of Down In It.

[slave2thewage]

Oh, if we're doing dream lineups:

Alessandro Cortini, Josh Eustis, Josh Freese, Aaron North, Trent Reznor, Ilan Rubin (cello/synths/add. percussion).

[Amaro]

My dream lineup came true, though I only got to see it once: WT club era. (Yes, hold the Freese. Le controversy.)

And to boot, Trent was on a special kind of fire then, so it's like...right, I've lived the dream. :rolleyes:

[Failure]

My optimal lineup would be Trent with Richard Patrick, Danny Lohner, Josh Freese, and Chris Vrenna (synth, keys). I love all the incarnations though, except for the one with Alex Crappytime.

[chroipahtz]

Freese doesn't fit. He's too cheery.

And I want Cortini to be involved with everything Trent does. Based on all the reviews I've been reading, if Trent wants to go back to his electronic roots, then he needs Cortini at his side. Alessandro is a synth wizard. I also want this so I get to hear him pursue darker/more distorted synth work.

[tony.parente]

They dropped the ball on the packaging/merch this album cycle.

There is nothing appealing enough about the physical packaging on this album for anyone to go out and buy it in a physical format unless you are a hardcore fan or collector.

The deluxe version should have been the standard, there's nothing deluxe about it.

The vinyl packaging is boring.

The packaging is about 1/10th as exciting as the music.

Seriously though, everything about this album physically has been a major fail IMO.

Music is a 9/10 though.

[goingincirclez]

They dropped the ball on the packaging/merch this album cycle...

AGREED on all counts. Although the WT era was pretty lackluster as well.


You know what would have been fucking awesome? Take the Deluxe Edition packaging, blow it all up to 12x12, and replace the cds with Vinyls. FUCK that would be a g o r g e o u s package, worthy of a coffee table presentation or something. I'd pay a good chunk o change to have something like that.

[sheepdean]

You know what would have been fucking awesome? Take the Deluxe Edition packaging, blow it all up to 12x12, and replace the cds with Vinyls. FUCK that would be a g o r g e o u s package, worthy of a coffee table presentation or something. I'd pay a good chunk o change to have something like that.
Agreed ... but only as a deluxe, still have a standard release. It pissed me off no end that the vinyl for TGWTDT was deluxe-only, some of us love vinyl but don't have $300 to drop on an album.

[goingincirclez]

Actually on the subject of packaging, my own separate opinion: I *HATE* (loathe, despise, abhor, detest, etc etc) digipacks! There is nothing "premium" or value-added about them. In fact to me they seem downright cheap. In the NPR interview Trent says he's trying to spare fans the aggravation of opening a plastic case, but shit: you can tear or fuzz the edges of a cardboard sleeve while removing the shrinkwrap just as easily as you might crack plastic. At least if you crack a standard case, replacements are a buck a dozen. Digipacks wear out noticeably, don't always fit media shelves well, and his only truly creative use of them was Broken which I admit was clever. And maybe TDS' booklet was an easier fit, but that still required a slim jewel case. Maybe The Fragile gets a pass here too, since it was a double album and most double-disc plastic cases suck. But I wish all the other single-disc releases wish were in standard cases.

[Sutekh]

I think what he meant by jewel cases exploding is that they're more likely to get damaged in transit than digipacks (so all the bits fly everywhere when you take off the shrinkwrap). But yep digipacks look cheap IMO, always thought it was a shame that the With Teeth packaging was basically the same level as the "every day..." single. TBH I would prefer just digital downloads and the artwork in a book sized hardback book ala the special edition of Amnesiac or the deluxe edition of "journal for plague lovers" by the manics

[Khrz]

To be honest, I looked at the regular edition of HM (jewel case in France) and without a booklet, it looks cheap as hell too. And it would hurt a bit to introduce the new plastic member to the whole rest of the NIN digipack family (yeah remixes don't count)...

[Amaro]

Umm...I think the Deluxe Edition has merit... Not perfect, but hey.

[Halo Infinity]

Actually on the subject of packaging, my own separate opinion: I *HATE* (loathe, despise, abhor, detest, etc etc) digipacks! There is nothing "premium" or value-added about them. In fact to me they seem downright cheap. In the NPR interview Trent says he's trying to spare fans the aggravation of opening a plastic case, but shit: you can tear or fuzz the edges of a cardboard sleeve while removing the shrinkwrap just as easily as you might crack plastic. At least if you crack a standard case, replacements are a buck a dozen. Digipacks wear out noticeably, don't always fit media shelves well, and his only truly creative use of them was Broken which I admit was clever. And maybe TDS' booklet was an easier fit, but that still required a slim jewel case. Maybe The Fragile gets a pass here too, since it was a double album and most double-disc plastic cases suck. But I wish all the other single-disc releases wish were in standard cases.

I've actually thought about that before, and yes, at least jewel cases are easily replaceable in comparison. To me, the best digipacks would have to be Broken, With Teeth, and And All That Could Have Been (Live/Still). I sometimes like to think what it would've been like if all of the other releases were in jewel cases. I'm sure Broken and The Downward Spiral probably would've had all clear jewel cases, or Broken's jewel case would've been like the one for Pretty Hate Machine. The Fragile's case probably could've looked like the cases that held Depeche Mode's 101, Michael Jackson's HIStory, and Final Fantasy VII. I'd like to think that would've looked cool, especially if the where the black parts that are supposed to be on it ended up red and/or gray just for The Fragile.

[Kyle]

Well, it was the first time Trent ever used that "sound", that vibe and feel for a track. If someone is relatively new to NIN, Into The Void seems to fit perfectly into their catalog, but when The Fragile first came out, it was very jarring, and while kinda "cool", I never really dug the groove, the music, the lyrics etc. It seemed out of place and kinda random, much as Starfuckers did, which many people have noted.
Really?

i bought The Fragile on the day of release and didn't find anything that far out of let field on Into the Void. I actually really liked it from the start.

My controversial opinion? While I don't find anything wrong with it, I also don't get why the Johnny Cash version of Hurt is considered so awesome. And I say that as someone who likes Johnny Cash (albeit in a casual fan kind of way) so I'm not knocking him at all.

[Kyle]

His lyrics on the first 3 records are the main reason why I love those first 3 records. There's some really great stuff, there. I say this as a really boring English Lit major and Sigma Tau Delta member who studied Milton for a full year.PHM included?

[chroipahtz]

My controversial opinion? While I don't find anything wrong with it, I also don't get why the Johnny Cash version of Hurt is considered so awesome. And I say that as someone who likes Johnny Cash (albeit in a casual fan kind of way) so I'm not knocking him at all.
It was a powerful "final song" for him, and completely out of left field. A country legend covering Nine Inch Nails? Unthinkable. And probably made a lot of uptight Christians upset. The video was also very powerful.

[goingincirclez]

It's also fitting in the sense that Cash and Reznor could be considered kindred spirits of a sort. Both were supremely talented, arrogant, brash, and generally anti-social. Nonetheless, both were / are respected as legendary masters of their craft in their own time, and worked hard to achieve that respect. Both of them overcame many demons and addictions. But as for fully escaping others, and a stubborn sense of self-loathing and anxiety that followed from their pasts? Even as Trent says he is happy now, his work reveals he's not fully comfortable and may never be. Cash admitted as much himself, and became seemingly more morose and regretful toward the end (especially after June died).

It was a brilliant and fitting cover, a bilateral tribute of sorts. No matter the genre of expression, some feelings are indeed shared across boundaries from within.

[BRoswell]

Cash's cover is one of those rare covers that transcends the typical idea of covers. Most covers are essentially the same song with the same emotions complimented by a different arrangement. There's nothing wrong with that most of the time, especially if those emotions are rather potent. Cash's version of Hurt, however, completely transforms the song in my opinion. It becomes about something else. Something that still has a connection to what Trent was originally writing about, but from a much different viewpoint. And yes, it does have a lot to do with age. Trent was in his twenties when he wrote Hurt, and while I think it's a great song, as someone in their twenties, I can see that it DOES come from a rather inexperienced place. There's a "nothing left to lose" quality to it that you really can't write about once you've experienced the world, had kids and won an Oscar. Not to make those things seem trivial, but for someone like Cash, who had been there and done that long before Trent did, you get the sense that this is really the last word on it all. "You CAN have it all, cause I'm on my way out, and I can't take it with me." Trent was singing about everything being taken away. Cash was singing about GIVING it all away. It seems like a minor detail, but it makes all the difference in my opinion.

[chroipahtz]

Not to mention the fact that Cash was commonly abusive and made the people he cared about hurt. It's sort of a "sorry for all the bad things I did" mea culpa on your deathbed moment.

[joplinpicasso]

I agree, and like BRoswell's main idea.

Also, is Hesitation Marks my favorite NIN album? Maybe.

[Kyle]

Wow. Looks like I'm unintentionally winning the most controversial rating system given a couple pages earlier hahahaha.

I should clarify though. I get all those things. I'm referring simply to the song itself. And it may have something to do with the fact that by the time I heard the song I was familiar with all of those things and was expecting a song so awesome that it would give me a blow job when it was done. Or maybe the behind the scenes type stuff was better than the actual song. I dunno. But like I said I do appreciate everything mentioned above and I'm a fan (albeit a casual one) of the other Cash things I've heard. But whether it's my tastes or enhanced expectations it's the song itself that I don't quite get.

Another possibility is that watching Hurt performed on the FTDS tour (before the video was released but with the same setup) is still one of the most powerful things I've ever seen at a concert and that's the same reason almost every successive performance of the song by NIN (let alone anyone else) hasn't done much for me either.

[Khrz]

Yeah, Cash's Hurt may be the best cover ever for me. Contextually, it kills NIN's Hurt.
NIN's is a song about a young guy being sad. Cash's is about a dying man who's seen everything taken away from him.

[tony.parente]

AGREED on all counts. Although the WT era was pretty lackluster as well.


You know what would have been fucking awesome? Take the Deluxe Edition packaging, blow it all up to 12x12, and replace the cds with Vinyls. FUCK that would be a g o r g e o u s package, worthy of a coffee table presentation or something. I'd pay a good chunk o change to have something like that.


I want to know why a stupid soundtrack (TGWTDT) that almost no one listens to or cares about and Ghosts which is probably their least enjoyed album had possibly the greatest package/packaging options in trents musical history.

Why would he skip over this album in regards to good packaging and put so much effort into a soundtrack?

[Zipfinator]

I want to know why a stupid soundtrack (TGWTDT) that almost no one listens to or cares about and Ghosts which is probably their least enjoyed album had possibly the greatest package/packaging options in trents musical history.

Why would he skip over this album in regards to good packaging and put so much effort into a soundtrack?

Just because you don't enjoy TGWTDT or Ghosts doesn't mean other people don't.

[Kyle]

Just because you don't enjoy TGWTDT or Ghosts doesn't mean other people don't.
Agreed.

I listen to both quite a bit.

[tony.parente]

Just because you don't enjoy TGWTDT or Ghosts doesn't mean other people don't.


You can't sit and tell me that ghosts or TGWTDT are on the same level as Hesitation Marks.

[m15a]

You can't sit and tell me that ghosts or TGWTDT are on the same level as Hesitation Marks.

Ghosts is my favorite NIN album. ::shrug::. nothing wrong with thinking that it or TGWTDT suck, and nothing wrong with stating your opinion in this thread, but how can you possible determine they're the least enjoyed? . . . in any case, i think the answer to the question is either because columbia didn't want to do that, or NIN were somehow unsatisfied with the results of the past releases, or they felt that it just didn't suit the release of a regular album. i mean, conceptually, HM should sort of fit on your shelf next to TDS, while Ghosts is sort of a different thing.

[tony.parente]

Ghosts is my favorite NIN album. ::shrug::. nothing wrong with thinking that it or TGWTDT suck, and nothing wrong with stating your opinion in this thread, but how can you possible determine they're the least enjoyed? . . . in any case, i think the answer to the question is either because columbia didn't want to do that, or NIN were somehow unsatisfied with the results of the past releases, or they felt that it just didn't suit the release of a regular album. i mean, conceptually, HM should sort of fit on your shelf next to TDS, while Ghosts is sort of a different thing.

Through my extremely scientific methods of determining which album is the fandoms least favorite I direct you here: http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/421-Rank-NIN-Albums

[joplinpicasso]

@tony.parente (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2107) , nice job linking a thread that I completely forgot I had even started! Not even sure my initial post remains the same.

Also... *drum roll* The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo is better than The Social Network. Trent crafted some of his best sounds ever on that soundtrack, and it is the apex of what Ghosts and TSN were heading towards. HM is Trent, as a songwriter, returning from that sonic void but still penning pop hooks. Glorious.

[BRoswell]

Why would he skip over this album in regards to good packaging and put so much effort into a soundtrack?

Because Trent wants you to be sad.

Also, The Slip and The Social Network both had fairly standard packaging. Where's the outcry over those albums?

[Kyle]

There's a huge difference between saying something doesn't compare to HM or is least enjoyed and saying its something that "hardly anyone listens to." In fact, I think those two along with TSN soundtrack might actually be the most listened to on my iPod. In all fairness, that's largely because its good music to listen to while doing homework because lyrics distract me, but there are still plenty of times I listen to those simply because they're damn good.

[Kyle]

@tony.parente (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2107) , nice job linking a thread that I completely forgot I had even started! Not even sure my initial post remains the same.

Also... *drum roll* The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo is better than The Social Network. Trent crafted some of his best sounds ever on that soundtrack, and it is the apex of what Ghosts and TSN were heading towards. HM is Trent, as a songwriter, returning from that sonic void but still penning pop hooks. Glorious.

TGWTDT better than TSN? That's a tough one.