Game of Thrones - Spoilers

[henryeatscereal]

@henryeatscereal (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1572) I think they did one of those for Breaking Bad as well. The Jon Snow training montage was also pretty amazing if you've not seen it.
Yeah, i knew about the "Breaking Bad" one, i just saw the Jon Snow training one, great stuff!

[orestes]

Not sure if posted before but:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjvEdXDYgY4

The replay button is raped...

Raped. . . (http://kateordiecomics.com/archive/word-crimes/)

[littlemonkey613]

It was announced that the show is going to spoil the ending of the books.
How do you all feel about this?

Im somewhere between accepting it as reality b/c its such a unique situation and being completely bummed out about how this effects the quality of the literature experience. :/




Who is everyone's favorite characters??

Cersei, Littlefinger and Sansa :D. I like em batshit, badass and soon to be badass

[orestes]

The first two episodes have leaked. *drip drip*

[Space Suicide]

Who is everyone's favorite characters?? Jon Snow and Tyrion seem to be my favs as of now.

Jaime Lannister (crazy right?) since after his capture in season 3 and the redeeming of his character. Losing his hand really humbled him. Roller coaster ride and deep character progression.

Daenerys Targaryen is a definite favorite of mine too! She has the best story arc in my opinion. Then again, I like anything Targaryen. I miss Viserys and Khal Drogo.

[Piko]

Tyrion, Jon, and Daenarys are my favorites.

Favorite Dany part:

She's getting the slaves in season 3. The guy selling them was bad mouthing her in dothraki, assuming she doesn't understand him. She plays him for a fool, letting him make an ass of himself. And when she does decide to call him out on it, she makes it worth it.

[orestes]

The amount of prop placement to hide male frontal nudity in this episode is amazing.

[Baphomette]

Just finished Ep4.

They cant' be dead, right? They're not dead, right? THEY CAN'T BE DEAD.

[Dr.Z]

The first two episodes have leaked. *drip drip*
...four now??? What the heck is going on here?
I'm struggling between giving in to the temptation and waiting for good quality...

[orestes]

The quality's good- the content was ripped from screeners.

edit: SCREAMING AT THE SCREEN.

[orestes]

My face during Janos Slynt's execution.

http://media.tumblr.com/3507cdbd6d3e61473275c7211059e42f/tumblr_inline_mh3xe9JIhJ1rn7wni.gif

[Self.Destructive.Pattern]

Can someone PM me a link for the episodes?? Nvm, found em ;).

[orestes]

The end of episode four: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[Self.Destructive.Pattern]

^^^ Ahhh, you're killin' me. I can't watch any of them until 7pm :(. How is it so far?

[orestes]

Episode three is the best of the bunch, followed closely by four.

[Space Suicide]

HBO is free for Time Warner Cable owners this weekend, so I could watch the season 4 marathon on TV today if I wanted. Plus the premiere episode tonight. However I work and also am not caught up so it's going to waste. Sigh.

[neorev]

Could someone please PM a link to the first four? Pretty please ::bats eye lashes::

[orestes]

Guys, it's not that hard to find.

Living for Varys this season!

[Self.Destructive.Pattern]

Could someone please PM a link to the first four? Pretty please ::bats eye lashes::

You can find them on kickass.

[Millionaire]

It is rather nice getting a few episodes at once. I'm one who prefers to binge, especially with this show, which has a lot of info, characters, and setup that goes down better when things are fresh in your mind. I will be watching it on tv and probably buying the blu, so I'll be a responsible pirate.

Ep. 4: I thought Barristan Selmy was some kind of godhand at fighting, even at his old age. I was looking forward to see him throw down, but he went out in a kind of un-epic manner, even though he took out a couple of the dudes. I guess age catches up with everyone.

[Piko]

Going to hold off on watching the leaks. I enjoyed the first episode though. Should be a very interesting season.

[Mr. Blaileen]

TV content is getting leaked..we live in crazy times! I just watched 501, and it was great. I can't wait to watch the other three that are out there. It's neat to be able to watch three more right away, but it's also weird to not have any new content for a month (provided the rest don't leak).

[seasonsinthesky]

i feel like the whole show ended phase one in season 4. all the episodes of season 5 are like a whole restart for every story.

not a diss, just... feels like i started a new show, basically.

[Jon]

There were 5 supplements on HBO Now for Season 5 when I went to bed last night, this morning there are 7. One of the new ones is:

Anatomy of a Scene: Mance Rayder (4:26)

[Millionaire]

Question for those who've seen the new eps and read the books: what did Cersei's cousin/lover/newfound religious fanatic allude to when he mentioned he was sorry for the death of Robert Barratheon? Did he kill him? If so, what was the reason? I just really want to know.

[slave2thewage]

Millionaire - Lancel was providing Robert with wine on the fatal hunt and it was either stronger than what he was used to or drugged (I can't remember which offhand, too early in the morning here), which lead to the goring. Naturally, this was all planned out by Cersei.

[Millionaire]

slave2thewage Ah, I knew it wasn't entirely just a dumbass accident, even though it was kind of still a dumbass accident.

[ambergris]

So I've started to read the fourth book and watched the first two episodes now. Just like seasonsinthesky, it feels to me like the beginning of a new "chapter". The old arc culminated with Tywin's death and now something new has begun. The story moves slower and I guess it's a consequence of the books. I read that people complain that the characters just move around a lot and nothing happens in book 4 and 5, I can see that in Brienne's storyline (thought the horse chase was really well done). Again, I noticed how much Emilia Clarke's acting skills vary with her material. Now that her character faces more problems, her acting got better. I guess the show is setting up these problems, so that Tyrion can give her some needed advice? I like Bashir from Deep Space Nine as Doran Martell, and the introduction of Dorne (and looks of Braavos) are wonderful. It's funny how episode 5;02 still contains content from book 3 (Jon's election).

[orestes]

Episodes 5-8 titles:
"Kill the Boy"
"Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken"
"The Gift"
"Hardhome"

[thelastdisciple]

I've been waiting ages to get into the Faceless Man stuff with Arya, ever since i first saw that Jaqen H'ghar dude show up back in season 2. Freakin' took long enough.

[orestes]

Nooooooooooooo.

https://youtu.be/peKytMV167w

[Harry Seaward]

I've been avoiding this thread for a long time because people were a little overzealous with spoilers (I recall somebody posting a picture of a golden hand directly after the episode aired in which Jaimie loses his hand...), so I'm glad it seems like everything is tagged well lately. I guess that's all I came in here to say.

[Jinsai]

they are really heavily deviating from the books now... Personally, I think it's really interesting how they're going about it.

[ambergris]

Interesting juxtaposition to talk about the tourney at Harrenhal right after Melisandre wanted to make a new shadow baby with Jon, isn't it? And then they talked about Rhaegar again later that episode....

Is that Tyrion/Jorah storyline from the books? Because if so, I get what people say that in books 4 and 5 the characters just walk around doing nothing. Tyrion gets captured and taken to a place he would have gone to anyway, and Jorah kidnaps Tyrion to get a pardon Daenerys will have to give anyway, because now she needs him again.
Generally though, I thought the episodes got better and better. The Sansa/Littlefinger scene was unbelievably perfect. Sophie Turner is doing a fantastic job.

[kdrcraig]

The Tyrion/Jorah storyline is in the books but it looks like they're going to go about it differently in the show, time will tell. They are really deviating from the books but I'm digging it for the most part.

[Baphomette]

If one more second of screen time is devoted to Missendei and Greyworm...

That aside, great episode. And OMG Best.Proposal.Ever.

[Millionaire]

What did Stannissay when Jon Snow was proposing to let the free folk join? The word when the Onion Knight turned to him and asked "What?" and Stannis said "Nothing". Its something like "fearless" or "fewer" but I'm not sure what he said.

[orestes]

Looks like Ser Jorah is taking Jon Connington's role on the show.

So far those plot details that leaked are bunk.

[littlemonkey613]

What did Stannissay when Jon Snow was proposing to let the free folk join? The word when the Onion Knight turned to him and asked "What?" and Stannis said "Nothing". Its something like "fearless" or "fewer" but I'm not sure what he said.

he was legit correcting his grammar. I cackled

[theimage13]

What did Stannissay when Jon Snow was proposing to let the free folk join? The word when the Onion Knight turned to him and asked "What?" and Stannis said "Nothing". Its something like "fearless" or "fewer" but I'm not sure what he said.

He said "fewer". Not at all relevant to the story; simply a comment on the line spoken just before that. Someone in the room with me asked the same question, but I was already too busy laughing hysterically to answer him.

[Dr.Z]

He said "fewer". Not at all relevant to the story; simply a comment on the line spoken just before that. Someone in the room with me asked the same question, but I was already too busy laughing hysterically to answer him.
And obviously also a reference to that episode in season 2 (ep. 8?) where Davos made the same grammar mistake and Stannis corrected him

[gorast]

Looks like Ser Jorah is taking Jon Connington's role on the show.

So far those plot details that leaked are bunk.

I hope that means Jorah's biting the bullet, because I can't stand his dumb ass. (I haven't read the books.)

[Baphomette]

I hope that means Jorah's biting the bullet, because I can't stand his dumb ass. (I haven't read the books.)I have and he bugs the fuck out of me, too. :)

[littlemonkey613]

^yall mean to lord friendzone :P

[orestes]

Oh, it's much worse in the books.

[Jinsai]

I always liked Mormont, and he was always one of the characters that I felt bad for because of how stupidly he tried to get himself out of his dilemmas and how it always ended up screwing him. He's tragically screwed no matter what he does.

I think it's hard not to feel bad for Ser Friendzone

[seasonsinthesky]

that's exactly why i hate his damn character. let the douchebag pay the worst price for being so arrogantly stupid and be done with his sorry ass (and then fix the white saviour complex too)!

goddamn Mormont was with Joffrey right at the top of my damn hitlist forever

[littlemonkey613]

I think Jorah haters give too much credit to Dany though. Its fun to hate characters but even if I disliked him as a character I would still think its dumb that Dany sent him away. You can't buy that kind of loyalty, and the irony that he was spying for someone trying to help her is just LOL. Like I think in concept what she did was alright but her circumstances are so extreme. He was a good advisor and is literally her bitch in a way thats really rare in this universe.

Like..
Davos to Stannis, Varys to the fucking realm, Brienne to Renly/Cat and Jorah to fucking Dany. That's loyalty. You cant just send it away when you're alone in Mereen. And it was fairly obvious he had given up his spying ways.

[Baphomette]

I think Jorah haters give too much credit to Dany though. Its fun to hate characters but even if I disliked him as a character I would still think its dumb that Dany sent him away. You can't buy that kind of loyalty, and the irony that he was spying for someone trying to help her is just LOL. Like I think in concept what she did was alright but her circumstances are so extreme. He was a good advisor and is literally her bitch in a way thats really rare in this universe.I would've lost respect for Dany had she NOT sent him away. She demonstrated how much she'd grown, that she trusted herself enough to send away this person on whom she had relied on so heavily and she wasn't swayed by his declaration of love. Additionally, although the last time he reported to Varys was while she was still with Drogo, don't forget that in the books, his last report to Varys is sent while they were in Q'arth. And Varys was NOT helping Dany in Season 1. He was helping Viserys. (The order to have Dany poisoned was sent before Viserys was killed and I think Jorah's intervention was partly motivated by the fact that Dany was now the last Targ. I mean, his love for her was probably the main factor but he was also protecting the side of his bread that was buttered.)

And about him being a good advisor, I don't entirely agree. He told her to run when Drogo was dying, he told her to sell her eggs instead of placing them on the pyre, he strongly urged her to leave Q'arth without her dragons; and he initially suggested she not take Yunkai. He may have had her best interest at heart but a good advisor? Yeeeeeeah... no.

[seasonsinthesky]

thank you for summarizing what a dick he is!

[littlemonkey613]

I would've lost respect for Dany had she NOT sent him away. She demonstrated how much she'd grown, that she trusted herself enough to send away this person on whom she had relied on so heavily and she wasn't swayed by his declaration of love. Additionally, although the last time he reported to Varys was while she was still with Drogo, don't forget that in the books, his last report to Varys is sent while they were in Q'arth. And Varys was NOT helping Dany in Season 1. He was helping Viserys. (The order to have Dany poisoned was sent before Viserys was killed and I think Jorah's intervention was partly motivated by the fact that Dany was now the last Targ. I mean, his love for her was probably the main factor but he was also protecting the side of his bread that was buttered.)

And about him being a good advisor, I don't entirely agree. He told her to run when Drogo was dying, he told her to sell her eggs instead of placing them on the pyre, he strongly urged her to leave Q'arth without her dragons; and he initially suggested she not take Yunkai. He may have had her best interest at heart but a good advisor? Yeeeeeeah... no.

All true. I stand by my argument about throwing away such an obvious lap dog. He could have been very useful to her now. As far as him being a dick goes, I completely agree. *never forgets that he was a slaver

[orestes]

"Oh, yes, the famously tart tongued Queen of Thorns."
"And the famous tart, Queen Cersei."

[orestes]

I am literally shaking with rage right now.

Fuck this show.

[Baphomette]

I am literally shaking with rage right now.

Fuck this show.
I loathe Sansa. I absolutely despise her character. So I can't say that I felt for her at all. And since this (and worse) happens to Jayne Poole in the books and since Sansa is filling in for her on the show, are you really surprised it happened?

Now, what they're doing with Loras? THAT has pissed me off to no end.

Dorne has been a joke so far. Really disappointed with that as well.

[Nyx]

People have been raped and have raped before, they have been wed against their wishes/will before, nothing that happened in this episode has strayed from that, so unless you've been "shaking with rage" for 5 seasons straight, there's no reason to be particularly outraged now.
I just wish people would go cry about the books in the book thread.

[orestes]

No, but maybe I'm just feed up with producers using rape as a cheap plot device and sympathy ploy for what will, ultimately, be about a male character's redemption.

Maybe I'm tired of seeing women fridged on this show. To what means was this scene necessary? To show how much of a monster Ramsay Bolton is? Unnecessary because it's already been proven time and again to viewers. Everything D&D have done this season to build Sansa up as an empowered character, seeking revenge against those who have hurt her family, was invalidated with that scene, despite what the episode producer/writer thinks (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/17/game-thrones-sansa-ramsay-interview?hootPostID=946f5fbe46c5ea4b1f185fca1cb9c bd4). As humiliating and cringeworthy as that scene was, it wasn't even about Sansa. The last shot of the episode panned in on Theon. The viewer is made to feel uncomfortable because of what he is being forced to witness. Pain does not belong to the woman who has to suffer it.

The world of Game of Thrones is a deeply patriarchal one, in which violence indirectly and directly benefits men but how many times do we need to drive the same point home? If the show runners really wanted to highlight the inherent violence of this society, they wouldn't have cut the fucking Greyjoys out of the show. (Hello, Eurion!)

"Oh, it's so much worse in the books."- that may be but not everything has to be translated verbatim from the books. I've read the books and to be quite honest, I started skipping the Reek chapters near the end because it would make me physically ill to read, so it's possible I've either forgotten or skipped the scene with "fake Arya".

[Nyx]

Are you saying rape doesn't happen to empowered women? Should they totally ignore the fact that there was no other way for their wedding night to unfold, bar some crazy stunt she could have pulled that would likely only wnd up with her beaten to a pulp? Would you prefer if they just skipped the scene and ignored the issue entirely? Should it just be left to our imaginations where we'd be left to think "oh it probably wasn't that bad for Sansa, being this new hardened woman and all".
I have not read the books nor do I intend to. I don't care what or how it happens there. The scene was logical and had a place in the series, however ugly it was.

[ambergris]

Why are people on the internet so angry about this Sansa scene? Personally, I was only a little disappointed because I thought Sansa had hidden a dagger somewhere in that dress... But honestly, this kind of scene (ok, without Theon in the background) just happens in an arranged marriage. It's standard procedure in a feudal society... (and yes, it's cruel)
The only disappointment I have with this season so far is the treatment of Dorne... it looks like an exploitation movie... Initially (that is, two years ago), I thought that Dorne would voluntarily provide Daenerys's starting point for conquering the Seven Kingdoms. Maybe that's why they have to show the location, because otherwise, they should have shown something different instead.
Edit: Something else, I think it has been an interesting decision to reduce the Tyrell family by a couple of members. I've wondered about that for a while now (since the Loras-Cersei marriage proposal). The behavior of the Tyrells of the movies does not really make sense, since Loras now is the only one to continue the family.

[fillow]

Does anyone else read this thread just for amusement, not knowing what's going on at all?
I never watched a single episode of this show (or read a book), but the way you guys empathizing is really fun.

[marodi]

Does anyone else read this thread just for amusement, not knowing what's going on at all?
I never watched a single episode of this show (or read a book), but the way you guys empathizing is really fun.

I stopped watching the show at the end of season 1 when they killed of Boromir Sean Bean because I was so pissed at that "twist" but I've kept reading the thread and I have to admit that sometimes, it almost makes me want to start watching again.

And I definitely have to read the books.

[orestes]

Where the fuck was my Manderly pie last night?

[ltrandazzo]

I'm reserving judgment on this until the season is done. The scene was super uncomfortable... and it was supposed to be. I certainly don't think that it's going to take a babyface turn from Theon to "save" Sansa. Quite the opposite, in fact. But for those who are enraged and besides themselves after watching Sansa's rape, what show did you think you were watching?

[littlemonkey613]

No fuck this though. D and D absolutely refuse to engage with the idea of rape and nuanced sexual politics in their show in any valid way and this has been a consistent problem in their adaptation. I have a few friends who have rage quit the show after this Sansa shit and I don't blame them at all. The fact that their universe is so riddled with this reality does not justify every careless decision they make when it comes to depicting rape on their show. If anything they should feel they have even more responsibility to tackle these issues in a meaningful way. It's a wonderful opportunity continually squandered for nasty entertainment.

What angers me most is their absolute refusal to explore the issue when it is actually integral to the core of a character. For instance book 4 has Cersei chapters which heavily explore her life of being raped with Robert Baratheon and how that has contributed to her paranoia, cruelty and even formulation of her sexuality and sexual fantasies, and many people who watch the show don't even understand why she wanted to kill Robert besides senseless power hungry-ness. I doubt the rest of the season will explore it either. Who fucking knows what they got planned for her in season 6. To me this Sansa shit proves they do not have an ability to create as strong a story for their more "feminine" female leads once the book content runs out.

Another example is Dany and Drogo. Rather than explore the physical pain and psychological impact on Dany's character that being sold at such a young age and essentially forced to have sex like that in the book, they just showed one scene in episode 1 and the rest of her arc plays out as if that specifically has no impact. I've noticed that Martin has not actually written a rape scene for any of the POV female characters but instead chooses to explore heavily how these assaults effect the psychology of the character via memory and reflection.

Let's not forget Cersei/Jaime in season 4....fucking makes no sense.
I will also never forgive them for making Shae in love with Tyrion because god forbid a prostitute character is explored without her falling in love with her client to make it more palatable. God forbid Tyrion's delusional side when it comes to the exploitation of women is ever explored.

Like with that storyline and the Sansa storyline now they want to keep the same storybeats because they are great beats, while changing the context and characters so the result is something that doesn't make sense or damages the integrity of female characterization to contribute to dude characters.

When it comes to Sansa, they kept the plot beats necessary in order to keep Theon and Ramsay's book motivations and emotional states in tact at the expense of Sansa. It's just not fair. Why isn't her story priority when she is the lead character of the 3? Like @orestes (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=4) is saying it wasn't about Sansa at all seeing as the precedent for the arc she is going to complete was already set. I can think of a few ways they could have joined her storyline with Jeyne's as they wanted without throwing her under the bus , but I had a feeling they'd choose the cheap route per usual.

Also fuck that their Sand Snakes were basically turned into comedy, AND they top off that scene with a shitty sexist joke by Bronn? Im so mad yall!

[orestes]

Also fuck that their Sand Snakes were basically turned into comedy, AND they top off that scene with a shitty sexist joke by Bronn? Im so mad yall!

Man​, at first I was pissed they cut out Arianne Martell from the show but looks like we dodged a bullet. Dorne has been the absolute worst this season and both Dorne and the Sand Snakes were my faves from AFFC. The Sand Snakes have been woefully miscast on the show.

[Baphomette]

The Sand Snakes have been woefully miscast on the show.Because if they're passionate and hot-tempered, then OF COURSE they have to be Latins. :eyeroll:

The irony of Bronn's joke was lost on a lot of people. Slickest kill ever.


No, but maybe I'm just feed up with producers using rape as a cheap plot device and sympathy ploy for what will, ultimately, be about a male character's redemption.I get what you're saying, I really do. And, obviously, my dislike of Sansa has biased my opinion of the scene. What I'm curious about is the idea of Theon's "eventual redemption" because I don't see it happening either on the show or in the eyes of the viewers. (At least not in my eyes.)

[orestes]

No, they should fight worth a damn and be worthy of the name Sand Snakes, not flunkies out of Xena:Warrior Princess. Show Obara is the worst.

[Baphomette]

No, they should fight worth a damn and be worthy of the name Sand Snakes, not flunkies out of Xena:Warrior Princess. Show Obara is the worst.Agreed. The racial stereo-typing pissed me off initially, however.

[orestes]

Ugh, those accents, too.

[Harry Seaward]

lol what the hell is going on in here? This is a fantasy show about knights and dragons and ice monsters, right?

[littlemonkey613]

lol what the hell is going on in here? This is a fantasy show about knights and dragons and ice monsters, right?

Right? A show with dragons deserves far better. ;)

[Harry Seaward]

I just think the criticisms are a bit misplaced regarding the rape scene. This is pretty in line for Sansa. She doesn't really do anything, except follow the lead of whoever tells her to do something. Maybe I'm missing the part where she's growing or getting stronger? She got married off and then her husband had sex with her. That doesn't have to be a meaningful scene, it's just a scene showing what happened and that's fine.

[ambergris]

Was it even rape? Remember, Sansa agreed to the wedding when Littlefinger asked her. She realized what it meant and agreed because it would give her a chance for revenge. She knew the price and now paid it. But she will (probably) get her revenge, that's what Brienne is there for, and that's why Theon had to watch.

[Nyx]

I'm bothered by hatred for Sansa's character in general. I think the main reason why people hate her so much is that she is us. She is exactly how any of us would be in that world. Timid, passive, helpless, in need of guidance. She's not mother of dragons, she's not some street warrior, she doesn't have magical powers or wilderness survival skills, she doesn't have amazing wit or sexual prowess, she's just average and reacts to things like any of us would react. She cries, she whimpers, she wants revenge, but eventually does what she needs to do to stay alive. She was just your average naive teenage girl who wanted to marry a prince and be a princess with no concept whatsoever of the schemes, the bloodthirst or the power games she'd be thrown in. People "loathing" her for that ... I don't get it. If I were in her shoes I'd probably cry and feel sorry for myself even more and would have likely thrown myself out the window sometime during season 2...

[orestes]

Was having the exact discussion yesterday and I think people loathe a character like Sansa (book or show is irrelevant) is because, in a deeply patriarchal society with a rigid class structure, she confirms to feudal gender roles. You could fault her for being naive but she grew up in a very sheltered environment, both metaphorically and geographically speaking. She's not "cool" like Brienne who subverts gender roles, although for all her physical strength, one could argue Brienne is lot more naive when it comes to politics and how people behave than Sansa.


Was it even rape? Remember, Sansa agreed to the wedding when Littlefinger asked her. She realized what it meant and agreed because it would give her a chance for revenge. She knew the price and now paid it. But she will (probably) get her revenge, that's what Brienne is there for, and that's why Theon had to watch.

Oh, hon, I hope you're not asking if it was rape because they are married.

[telee.kom]

Now, if you are not comfortable with rape scenes in a TV Show, why are you watching Game Of Thrones Orestes and others? I was watching first two seasons of the show and I just didn't enjoy the world, so I simply stop watching it. You are learning just now, 5 season in, that GoT have a cruel world where people are getting raped and murdered?

[ambergris]

Oh, hon, I hope you're not asking if it was rape because they are married.

Hah, no, you're completely missing the point. Sansa is playing her game (or Littlefinger's game, which Sansa has chosen to play). Littlefinger gave her the choice and Sansa is where she wants to be. So it's not the marriage itself. And it's not even 'only' the sex, because if Ramsay was perfectly harmless and kind to Sansa, she'd be perfectly fine with playing her charade until her time for revenge comes. The "only" problem for her is that just before, Miranda told her that Ramsay is a sadist and that Theon is being forced to watch. But remember, Sansa knew that the Boltons killed her brother and mother and Littlefinger told her that now is her time to play the game herself. I guess one can complain that the showrunners just tried to squeeze a little more viewer's disgust out of the Sansa character arc, but then, yes, what kind of show did you think you were watching?

[orestes]

I've seen TGWTDT, for example, so I'm not reflexively averse to sexual assault in tv/movies if it is more than just plot point for character development other than the victim.

I've also read the books so I know that this seemingly random violence that is systematic in this society falls more on than just the female characters.

I think this is worth a read: http://www.shakesville.com/2015/05/today-in-rape-culture.html?m=1

[telee.kom]

It would be awesome if all the feminist who keeps criticizing movies for their depiction of women get up of their asses and go make a movie. I think it would be a lot more beneficial to society than constant criticizing of every form of entertainment from their very narrow point of view.

Just go make great feminist movie where all the characters, all the character development, all the jokes, all the story is feminist friendly and approved. I would like to see the end result of this. The constant shitting on everything with the attitude "I am a feminist thus I have the right to tell you how to make movies" is really tiring.

[theimage13]

It would be awesome if all the feminist who keeps criticizing movies for their depiction of women get up of their asses and go make a movie.

Yes, because everyone with an opinion is a highly regarded Hollywood producer with distributors clamoring to show their films to people.


Just go make great feminist movie where all the characters, all the character development, all the jokes, all the story is feminist friendly and approved. I would like to see the end result of this. The constant shitting on everything with the attitude "I am a feminist thus I have the right to tell you how to make movies" is really tiring.

Please learn what feminism means. Here, I'll help you:

Do you believe that men and women deserve to be treated as equals?
If you answered no, you're a shitbag and I hope you pour hot coffee in your lap.
If you answered yes, you understand feminism.

If you think there is ANYTHING more to it than that - such as a feeling of smug superiority or belonging on a pedestal - you're wrong. That's not feminism; that's just angry shouting from people. They may be, among other things, feminists. But feminism is not even remotely close to what you're rambling about.

Oh, and one more thing: being anti-rape isn't a narrow point of view. It's actually probably one of the most universally accepted views that has ever existed. It's up there with thou shalt not kill. I'll give you this...in a story that is riddled with rape, I do find it a little peculiar that so many people are getting so up in arms about the context of it...I mean, rape is awful in any form. If you were okay with one character getting raped, why not a different character? And if you're not okay with it, what the hell are you watching/reading a series like this for to begin with?

But sorry, to summarize: rape = awful, being anti-rape =/= narrow minded, and feminism =/= angry women shouting that they're better than everyone else.

[orestes]

Just go make great feminist movie where all the characters, all the character development, all the jokes, all the story is feminist friendly and approved. I would like to see the end result of this. The constant shitting on everything with the attitude "I am a feminist thus I have the right to tell you how to make movies" is really tiring.

Already seen Mad Max: Fury Road. :)

[telee.kom]

@theimage13 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=809) I'm not exactly sure why you explaining all of this to me, I wasn't arguing about feminism, I was arguing about very specific thing that some feminist do I find extremely annoying. We are still allowed to have different opinions right?

Also your write up is extremely demagogic, I never said that being anti rape means having a narrow point of view. I said that feminist look at movie making, and movie writing only from feminist perspective is narrow minded look at movie making. I believe film making shouldn't put feminist agenda before, for example, story telling, directors vision, etc. If writer thinks that it would make a better story arc for a character to get raped, so be it. It's the same thing when a writer kill a character off, you might not like, but it's someone else story, movie maker shouldn't conform their work to people who feel offended by it or doesn't like it. Also, you are confusing fiction and reality a little bit here. I am very much anti rape person, yet I don't think it should be omitted from displaying in cinema any more than murder is.


Already seen Mad Max: Fury Road. :)

How many of these feminist bloggers were working on that movie exactly? I think there was Vagina Monologues writer consulting the actresses about abuse, and kudos to her, I think she did a great job from what I saw.

[Archive_Reports]

I don't understand all the backlash for the Sansa scene. Was it terrible? Well sure, but half of this stuff on this show is terrible. And the argument of "we already know Ramsay is a monster, why do they feel the need to show it again?!" is horseshit. We've seen dragons fly and Tyrion be a drunk but we're damn sure going to see those things again.

[Frozen Beach]

Yes, because everyone with an opinion is a highly regarded Hollywood producer with distributors clamoring to show their films to people.

You do realize there's an independent film industry, right? It's 2015. Anyone can make a film nowadays. Don't have someone to distribute your film? Post it on youtube or vimeo. Lots of people watch independent films on those sites. If you still can't for some reason make a film, then write a script and maybe someone else will make it. If people are having problems with the film industry and want to change it, then they should start by trying to influence the change themselves by taking part in it. Not trying to be rude, but I think it'd actually be nice seeing some of the people who have a problem with the industry try to actually change it.

[Jinsai]

GRRM uses rape and the propensity towards it as cheap character window dressing in the books too... did we really need the story where the Mountain rapes the innkeeper's daughter in front of him to demonstrate how awful he is? Did we need to know that Roose Bolton conceived Ramsay by raping his mother under the corpse of her hanged husband? Are the dothraki tribes sufficiently barbaric without casually endorsing rape?

There were only a few ways the wedding night with Ramsay could have played out, and they could have been much more gratuitous than they were. Having Ramsay actually treat her well in any capacity would be strange and out of character; he isn't capable of it. Forcing Theon to watch is pretty much exactly in line with how he'd be inclined to reveal his true nature to Sansa... and they didn't show any of the actual sexual assault.

Theon's character may or may not be somewhat redeemed down the line here, and that would be a pretty amazing story arc to pull off, considering that a few years ago most viewers would have wished the worst on him. Theon is also ultimately the victim of gross sexual torment and the worst psychological torment in the entire story (and that's saying something). Even if he is redeemed somewhat, we all know that Brianne will be part of the story there too. He won't be pulling it off alone either way.

Did we need this disturbing scene for it to be possible for Theon to be somewhat redeemed later (potentially)? I don't think so... does it cheapen the story by being too pandering with disgusting topics? I don't think so either on that note. I think they could have handled that whole scene with a lot less tact than they did.

[Rabbit]

i hate when the public latches on to whatever new thing to be "outraged" about is "in" and start targeting things like movies and tv shows. so stupid.

[telee.kom]

GRRM uses rape and the propensity towards it as cheap character window dressing in the books too... did we really need the story where the Mountain rapes the innkeeper's daughter in front of him to demonstrate how awful he is?

Did we need the story where Theon get his dick cut off? Did we need a scene where Mountain squishes Viper's eyes? What show you're think you are watching? World of GoT is an awful place. Rape is part of that world the same way intricacy, incest, torture, murder or any other awful thing that happened there is. How is rape any different than what Ramsay is doing to Theon Greyjoy? If you can't watch those things, than why are you watching GoT?

[theimage13]

@theimage13 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=809) I'm not exactly sure why you explaining all of this to me, I wasn't arguing about feminism, I was arguing about very specific thing that some feminist do I find extremely annoying. We are still allowed to have different opinions right?

Also your write up is extremely demagogic, I never said that being anti rape means having a narrow point of view. I said that feminist look at movie making, and movie writing only from feminist perspective is narrow minded look at movie making. I believe film making shouldn't put feminist agenda before, for example, story telling, directors vision, etc. If writer thinks that it would make a better story arc for a character to get raped, so be it. It's the same thing when a writer kill a character off, you might not like, but it's someone else story, movie maker shouldn't conform their work to people who feel offended by it or doesn't like it. Also, you are confusing fiction and reality a little bit here. I am very much anti rape person, yet I don't think it should be omitted from displaying in cinema any more than murder is.



How many of these feminist bloggers were working on that movie exactly? I think there was Vagina Monologues writer consulting the actresses about abuse, and kudos to her, I think she did a great job from what I saw.

I'm explaining it because you said, and then repeated, that it's feminists you're angry with. Being anti-rape isn't a feminist view, it's an "I'm not a horrible human being" view. You don't have to be a feminist to bitch about people raping each other (after all, the ladies can rape men...they just don't do that nearly as often as men rape women).

You went on to say that "their [the feminists from your previous sentence] very narrow point of view" is what seems to be grinding your gears, and spent the next paragraph on a rant that clearly implied that you don't understand what feminism actually means - as though it's this magical agenda that needs a special script that's been pre-approved by these people you're so angry with.

[theimage13]

i hate when the public latches on to whatever new thing to be "outraged" about is "in" and start targeting things like movies and tv shows. so stupid.

Yeah, how dare anyone be angry about rape. But thankfully that's just an "in" thing to be upset about, and soon enough people will get wound up about something else and forget about rape again. So it's all good.

*cough*

[telee.kom]

I'm explaining it because you said, and then repeated, that it's feminists you're angry with. Being anti-rape isn't a feminist view, it's an "I'm not a horrible human being" view. You don't have to be a feminist to bitch about people raping each other (after all, the ladies can rape men...they just don't do that nearly as often as men rape women).



Geez, do I really need to spell out I'm talking about about fictional TV show rape, not real world actual rape? Or do you not see the difference? It would actually be awesome if as much energy and headlines went into fighting the real world female problems and not the fictional ones.

[Jinsai]

Did we need the story where Theon get his dick cut off? Did we need a scene where Mountain squishes Viper's eyes? What show you're think you are watching? World of GoT is an awful place. Rape is part of that world the same way intricacy, incest, torture, murder or any other awful thing that happened there is. How is rape any different than what Ramsay is doing to Theon Greyjoy? If you can't watch those things, than why are you watching GoT?

Congratulations on completely fucking missing the point I was trying to make. How could you actually read the post I wrote up there all the way through and then think you're somehow making a new fucking point by bringing up Theon's castration and sexual assault?

[telee.kom]

Congratulations on completely fucking missing the point I was trying to make. How could you actually read the post I wrote up there all the way through and then think you're somehow making a new fucking point by bringing up Theon's castration and sexual assault?

Again, why (or rather; for what) are you watching this, if you clearly not enjoying it? Sure we didn't need all those things, but it wouldn't be Game Of Thrones without those violent scenes, it is integral part of the story and that world in general. It's like watching Punisher and be mad that it is violent and asking why does he need to kill all those people? Does he? Probably not, but that's the story.

[Baphomette]

I'm bothered by hatred for Sansa's character in general. I think the main reason why people hate her so much is that she is us.I don't see her as a representation of "us" at all. Quite the opposite.


I think people loathe a character like Sansa (book or show is irrelevant) is because, in a deeply patriarchal society with a rigid class structure, she confirms to feudal gender roles. You could fault her for being naive but she grew up in a very sheltered environment, both metaphorically and geographically speaking. She's not "cool" like Brienne who subverts gender roles, although for all her physical strength, one could argue Brienne is lot more naive when it comes to politics and how people behave than Sansa.Yes - I loathe Sansa for being the perfect feudal feminine ideal. However, I could overlook her naiveté, weakness and passivity were it not for the fact that she chose Joffrey over her family after he threatened to kill Arya. SHE EVEN FORGAVE HIM FOR KILLING HER WOLF FFS. Her disdain for her sister, the disrespect she constantly showed her septa, the fact that she would even encourage her father to dishonor himself - completely unforgivable.

[Rabbit]

Yeah, how dare anyone be angry about rape. But thankfully that's just an "in" thing to be upset about, and soon enough people will get wound up about something else and forget about rape again. So it's all good.

*cough*
And here we go. The exact thing i fucking hate. People like you is why the media can throw stupid headlines and create bullcrap conflicts when there aren't any. NO ONE is saying rape isn't a horrible thing that needs to be focused on in college campuses, work environments, etc. NO ONE is saying that.

The problem is when the hot button topic of the moment (which this currently is) has dipshits focusing all their misguided energy on irrelevant shit like TV shows movies, and music.

[Baphomette]

It would actually be awesome if as much energy and headlines went into fighting the real world female problems and not the fictional ones.What makes you think that isn't the case? Are you seriously going to be that dismissive of all the work that's been done and is still being done to advance feminism? Or do you think a person can't direct their energies to multiple causes equally? Also, headlines can't fight anything. Headlines sell.

[sweeterthan]

I agree that the Sansa scene was unnecessary but I am glad that it has people talking about rape and feminism. GOT is fiction and meant to be entertaining but a bunch of folks stopped and said "is this entertainment?" To me, it shows a much needed cultural shift on the subject.

[Conan The Barbarian]

Jesus Christ.

I just got done watching the episode and coming here to state my opinion and this is happening.

First good episode from a very boring(or slow burning at least) season.

Evil people do evil things, and that last scene is a great way of showing how evil he is.

[orestes]

I know, man! People conducting critical analysis of pop culture.

[Jinsai]

Again, why (or rather; for what) are you watching this,
Again, you are CLEARLY missing the point of what I was saying. I don't know how, but somehow you did it (twice).

I actually don't have a problem with the scene at the end of the last episode. Did I just blow your mind?

Read what I said again, slow down this time, try to process what's actually being said, stop wailing about how much you hate feminism, and try to wrap your head around it.

[koz-ivan]

it wasn't even about Sansa. The last shot of the episode panned in on Theon. The viewer is made to feel uncomfortable because of what he is being forced to witness. Pain does not belong to the woman who has to suffer it.

while in general GoT is rape crazy, almost to the point where it just becomes background noise. both GRRM & the show writers have gone to that well too many times already - and when they do they don't always get it right. (exhibit a the lannister siblings reunion last year)

that being said - the use of Theon as witness was (imho) well done, it conveyed the horror of the scene without actually showing the act (which again imho would have been worse) that scene is very much the sansa rape scene and not the theon standing there crying scene.

fwiw, alfie allen absolutely nailed that scene.

[Jinsai]

I just don't understand how the people who have read the books take special exception to what's happening here on the show.

Yes, in the books it was different... It wasn't Sansa, but Jeane, an ancillary character that the reader/viewer isn't especially invested in. Somehow, to me, that makes it a little more casual of an inclusion. Even still, she's still the key to Theon's "redemption" arc in the books. And in the books, she is treated in a more graphic way (that if I remember involved dogs and Theon being added into the act at some stages).

It's a shocking scene, but I don't understand how the readers would be alright with the material in the books, but object to what's shown on the screen. Does it have to do with personal investment in the character?

[telee.kom]

What makes you think that isn't the case? Are you seriously going to be that dismissive of all the work that's been done and is still being done to advance feminism? Or do you think a person can't direct their energies to multiple causes equally? Also, headlines can't fight anything. Headlines sell.

Headlines do sell, but it also is an indicator of what current mainstream feminism is concern itself about, and for me, there are quite a lot of bullshit non issues that are pushed through the media with such an audacity it really makes me wonder what are feminist priorities in 21st century. I know you guys don't like to hear that, but if half of your agenda is discussing female protagonist in a TV Shows, you might not need a movement for that, start a book club.

[Nyx]

Telee.kom, you don't think the media affects culture/societal relations at least as much as it reflects them? Yes, everyone agrees rape is bad but you have, even in this very thread, people questioning if that even was rape. People all agree that 'stranger in an alley forces his penis into a decently dressed woman' is rape, but change any factor in that scenario and people will start disagreeing, talking about the victim's responsibility and all that crap. It's part of the reason why I am ok with the Sansa rape scene (so to speak). It clearly (yet not graphically) shows that it is indeed rape, regardless of her agreement to marry him and acceptance that it would inevitably happen.

Anyway,

Her disdain for her sister, the disrespect she constantly showed her septa, the fact that she would even encourage her father to dishonor himself - completely unforgivable.So you basically loathe her for being a teenager. Makes sense. In regards to her father, I would encourage mine to roll around in donkey shit if it meant keeping him alive. If not now, when I was a kid for sure... And it's even more reason to like her character now because she's progressed from that ditzy obnoxious girl, she's one of the characters that did the most growing (up) and is arguably one of the realest ones in the show, flaws and all.

[telee.kom]

You know, if the argument was put in a way "let's talk about why Sansa's scene in last GoT episode was still rape", that would be something different. I still think there are plenty real life scenarios where could you discuss this topic, but okay, GoT is a popular TV show, if you want to open this discussion to general audience or younger audience this way, so be it.

But that's not what majority of people here are having problem with. People here weren't okay with the existence of that rape scene itself. And that's just really feel stupid to me considering what show GoT is. If you would watch Love and Marriage and suddenly there was a violent rape scene I get that would just might rise an eyebrow, but in Game Of Thrones?

[orestes]

You can be a fan and still be critical. (https://medium.com/matter/admit-it-your-fave-is-problematic-2dfa692f557b)

You can be a fan and still be critical. (https://medium.com/matter/admit-it-your-fave-is-problematic-2dfa692f557b)

You can be a fan and still be critical. (https://medium.com/matter/admit-it-your-fave-is-problematic-2dfa692f557b)

[koz-ivan]

But that's not what majority of people here are having problem with. People here weren't okay with the existence of that rape scene itself. And that's just really feel stupid to me considering what show GoT is. If you would watch Love and Marriage and suddenly there was a violent rape scene I get that would just might rise an eyebrow, but in Game Of Thrones?

while there is something to that, heck ramsay warned us seasons ago "if you think this has a happy ending, you have not been paying attention"

it is the nature of the beast, for their wedding night to end in anything else but a rape would not have been in character for ramsay, the boy is a one way street.

the timing of it was *really* unfortunate though, Sansa seems to be the perpetual pawn and any time she seems to gain some ground towards her own agency (like in the tub scene w/ miranda) she's slammed back to being the helpless victim.

---

all that being said, there are plenty of things to be critical about the books, show and all involved on the crative side - and the over-reliance on rape as plot point is certainly one of those things.

[Baphomette]

So you basically loathe her for being a teenager.No. I loathe her for being a disloyal idiot. Her sister is two years younger and is infinitely more mature and loyal to a fault. She proves it time and time again. Arya's a protector. Sansa's just a self-preservationist. I see nothing praise worthy about that.


there are plenty of things to be critical about the books, show and all involved on the creative sideWhich brings us back to Dorne. Do any of you think that mess can be turned around?

[koz-ivan]

Which brings us back to Dorne. Do any of you think that mess can be turned around?

that's tough for me to answer, I'm so apathetic towards the entire Dorne thing I'm finding it difficult to care, and if all involved (bronn, kingslayer, & myrcella) get shipped home in tiny boxes (which I don't think will happen) at least that shows it does rain on cersi's side of the street too.

[Jinsai]

the timing of it was *really* unfortunate though, Sansa seems to be the perpetual pawn and any time she seems to gain some ground towards her own agency (like in the tub scene w/ miranda) she's slammed back to being the helpless victim.

She's temporarily a hapless victim here in that scene. Her character isn't going to become some kind of shattered twitchy broken victim (like Theon) though, I'm pretty sure of that... and not just because of the hints from the "coming soon" preview clip.

I agree with people about the sand snakes though... on a whole, it's sad casting. The actresses just can't pull it off and come across as a little silly.

[Baphomette]

It suddenly occurred to me that Sansa has been threatened/sexually assaulted (and now raped) more than any other character.

- Attempted gang rape in King's Landing
- Dress ripped off and beaten by Meryn Trant
- Warned of impending rape by Cersei/Shae during Blackwater
- Threatened with rape by the Hound (books)
- Threatened with rape by Joffrey (after marrying Tyrion)
- Had rape ordered by Tywin
- Sexually assaulted by singer at the Eyrie (books)
- Sexually harassed by Littlefinger
- Raped by Ramsey

Huh.

[ambergris]

I think it's too early to condemn the scene, it really depends on whether Sansa has evolved to a point where the her treatment actually has consequences for her enemies. I hope that's going to be the case within this season. Only if it doesn't, then the scene was the kind of gratuious sexual violence of which it is being accused.
Feminist critiques are, in this case, a bit beside the point. I guess one can have two opinions: Does one watch the show because it is such a gritty, cold reflection of medieval times (a bit of an adult fairy tale), or because one regards it as a parallel to our present time? In the former case, a feminist critique is ahistorical, there simply was no feminist thinking in the medieval age. In the latter case, one could complain about the scene though, for the reasons already mentioned. I'm critical of the second view because it leads to Buzzfeed articles like "What can Tywin Lannister tell us about U.S. presidents?" or something like that.
About Dorne, I already found it funny when the books (appendix of book 2?) first mentioned that Oberyn had 8 daughters. It reminded me a bit of greek mythology, where gods have 1000 children and all of them are daughters, or something like that (example: The Nereids). It's a bit silly in a "realistic" context, especially because these daughters also have a "team name" (sand snakes). Such constructions cannot be good, because there are too many people to give them unique characters. And the movies have to cut material from the book so it was bound to be a one-dimensional affair.

[orestes]

Okay, this isn't bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs7xO5P3Az4

[thevoid99]

Emilia's reggae song is a hoot. I love it.

[littlemonkey613]

I think it's too early to condemn the scene, it really depends on whether Sansa has evolved to a point where the her treatment actually has consequences for her enemies. I hope that's going to be the case within this season. Only if it doesn't, then the scene was the kind of gratuious sexual violence of which it is being accused.
Feminist critiques are, in this case, a bit beside the point. I guess one can have two opinions: Does one watch the show because it is such a gritty, cold reflection of medieval times (a bit of an adult fairy tale), or because one regards it as a parallel to our present time? In the former case, a feminist critique is ahistorical, there simply was no feminist thinking in the medieval age. In the latter case, one could complain about the scene though, for the reasons already mentioned.

I simply think most on this board are over simplifying the issue. It is not about whether rape is portrayed but how it is portrayed in your universe.

We live within this context (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/20/1-in-5-college-study-raped_n_7293068.html). Therefore rape and sexual assault within fiction should be treated with extra care, more than the other forms of violence that are depicted.

The show has consistently refused to explore the issue of how widespread rape actually is within it's universe, only deciding to keep in shock value scenes, or writing and filming a rape scene without even realizing what they are doing. ( I still can't believe).

In Sansa's case it is obvious to me it will effect her character and become a primary motivation for her, but like I said her motives were already in line and will remain consistent, therefore this scene was more about the development of Theon and Ramsay. It is insulting because she is the lead character of the 3 and there's something nasty to me about making that kind of change to a character's story.

So they refuse to explore how sexual violence effects the psychology of many of the big female players (Cersei, Dany etc.) but they absolutely have to keep this plot point that happened to another character.

If the show were invested even an ounce in depicting the actual realism of this hypothetical universe they would explore what years of rape did to Cersei, they would have explored Dany's physical/psychological trauma from "having sex" with Drogo every night regardless of what she wanted, they would have not made Shae fall in love with Tyrion and instead explored the actual risks associated with being a prostitute and how dangerous her situation was while also exploring how Tyrion is delusional and completely objectified her as a body while sometimes deluding himself into thinking he gave a rat's ass about her, and more importantly they would deal with the issue with the nuance it deserves with an understanding that seems more educated on the subject than a douche bag frat boy (a main core of the audience and so you see my problem).

They don't know shit about it and they don't give a fuck. I find arguments about them trying to depict things realistically silly as fuck tbh.

The outrage does not stem just from that scene but of a continual lack of care when it comes to something so important, and ironically as they would argue, integral to the story they are telling.

Im also very frustrated because a better story could have easily been told. They could have had Sansa slowly start to realize what Ramsay was doing to other women and therefore approached the issue of sexual assault in a way they refuse to (through actual reflection and analyses of a context) I believe the audience is in dire need of this. The story would have easily panned out they way they wanted and it would have been less insulting to Sansa's arc. But no they had to have that scene. There was no way they weren't going to do it. Because they are D and D and when it comes to this they are Dumb and Dumber. It was honestly just what I expected from them.

[Harry Seaward]

Maybe in the universe they live in, rape isn't as emotionally damaging to a person as it is in present day American colleges.

Also, I don't see any problem with using a character's rape scene to further the story and evolution of two separate male characters.

[Baphomette]

They could have had Sansa slowly start to realize what Ramsay was doing to other women and therefore approached the issue of sexual assault in a way they refuse to (through actual reflection and analyses of a context) I believe the audience is in dire need of this. The story would have easily panned out they way they wanted and it would have been less insulting to Sansa's arc. But no they had to have that scene. There was no way they weren't going to do it. Because they are D and D and when it comes to this they are Dumb and Dumber. It was honestly just what I expected from them.10 hours per season. XXX number of characters and storylines. What you're proposing (Sansa slowly realizing) is unrealistic for this particular show.

[telee.kom]

We live within this context (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/20/1-in-5-college-study-raped_n_7293068.html).


This 1 in 5 number has been debunked so many times I'm in awe that people still cite this. http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2014-09-26/news/bs-ed-rape-statistics-20140928_1_22-percent-13-percent-30-percent

[Jinsai]

and there go the possibilities for a "Theon redemption arc" in the tv show...


They could have had Sansa slowly start to realize what Ramsay was doing to other women and therefore approached the issue of sexual assault in a way they refuse to (through actual reflection and analyses of a context) I believe the audience is in dire need of this.

What I don't understand is why it's ok if it happens to "other women" but not Sansa.

[Baphomette]

I loved this episode.

[Nyx]

and there go the possibilities for a "Theon redemption arc" in the tv show...



What I don't understand is why it's ok if it happens to "other women" but not Sansa.I think it's mostly because a big deal has been made out of keeping her virginal throughout the seasons (she kept being rescued from rape and Tyrion didn't even attempt it). I believe people see her, on some irrational level, as "ruined" now, their fantasy of her remaining a virgin until she gives herself to some beautiful kind prince has been shattered. While I think that's fucked up on an entirely different level, I can't think of any other explanation. I thought Dany/Drogo thing was much more disturbing and disgusting since he rapes her until she gets Stockholm syndrome and then all of a sudden we're supposed to buy it as some big love story (and people generally did). Now THAT is sick.

As far as this episode goes....I hope it doesn't mean we'll be losing Cersei :/

[koz-ivan]

Okay, this isn't bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs7xO5P3Az4

that was genius. really well done.

---

last night's episode was pretty good, Ghost can make any episode better.

I'm not sure I really understand the lancel / littlefinger / high septon / lady olena connection(s), I had assumed lancel confessed all his sins well in advance of this episode, alas that didn't seem to be the case.

Dorne is still a mess. I can only imagine that writer's meeting, "well bron sings and there's boobs" "and that's all?" "yeah" "brilliant!"

[slave2thewage]

TV!Myrcella needs a good slap.

RIP any chance of "fat pink mast".

I'm very worried for Shireen.

[orestes]

Bookmarking this thread in anticipation of a scene coming up for Cersei.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/8f6841e85e947f99af6575071fc66faa/tumblr_inline_nbv41qToGx1qi6q9m.jpg

[Baphomette]

I'm not sure I really understand the lancel / littlefinger / high septon / lady olena connection(s), I had assumed lancel confessed all his sins well in advance of this episode, alas that didn't seem to be the case. Cersei and Lancel thought they were the only ones who knew about their affair (and the murder of Robert). They didn't have a clue Littlefinger was aware of both because he kept his mouth shut 'til last night when he dropped the info in Olenna's lap. And I think Lancel had already confessed but no action could be taken against Cersei until a non-sparrow made an accusation. Or something like that.

[ambergris]

I'm still not sure which "young boy" Littlefinger was speaking of (Age-wise only Robin Arryn makes sense? But why... Though, I guess it could also mean Tommen.). However, nice to see the conspiracy to kill Joffrey spelled out so clearly. I wonder if it had already been planned when Littlefinger arranged the Joffrey/Margaery marriage. (Apparently, Littlefinger likes to arrange marriages for sadists and then arrange for their deaths later.)
Dorne is still a total mess. It would have been more consequential to let Bronn die, even if audiences love him. Now, the poisoning was just a pretext for showing some boobs. I understand they needed to find a reason for Jaime to leave the capital while Cersei's plans collapse, but maybe a ...little... more finesse was needed. But at least the three final ingredients to the season's finale have been added (Will Shireen be sacrified? What will King's Landing look like with the High Sparrow on top? What happens now that Tyrion and Daenerys have met?)
Edit: I've long though that the final confrontation between Fire and Ice will become a sort of apocalyptic event with the Gods choosing their champions. In this regard, the New Gods were always very passive. It was about time they chose their champion. But who DID build that old altar?

[Baphomette]

I'm still not sure which "young boy" Littlefinger was speaking ofHe was talking about Oliver (the whore) and Lancel.


Now, the poisoning was just a pretext for showing some boobs.It was SO much more than that! Tyene was in control the entire time, used her sexuality as a weapon (Nym does that in the books) and brought Bronn to his knees. Now, he's indebted to her for saving his life. I absolutely LOVED that scene.

[Sallos]

Maybe in the universe they live in, rape isn't as emotionally damaging to a person as it is in present day American colleges.

Also, I don't see any problem with using a character's rape scene to further the story and evolution of two separate male characters.

in GoT universe is common practice, in US colleges some people wish it were.

[Archive_Reports]

http://tafkarfanfic.tumblr.com/post/119770640640/rape-in-asoiaf-vs-game-of-thrones-a-statistical

[telee.kom]

Why are you guys trying to apply modern logic to a story from "medieval" times? That's like watching a series about Thirty Years' War and say it is problematic, because there are too few women commanders. You are wishing that the story would be kinder to women, I get it, but that's not the world you are watching. There's nothing problematic about it, it is a fictional story, these things did not happened, but it is a universe where certain rules apply. One of these rules is, it is a violent and cruel world. And if you don't like it, why the fuck are you watching it and complaining about it?

[Sallos]

Why are you guys trying to apply modern logic to a story from "medieval" times? That's like watching a series about Thirty Years' War and say it is problematic, because there are too few women commanders. You are wishing that the story would be kinder to women, I get it, but that's not the world you are watching. There's nothing problematic about it, it is a fictional story, these things did not happened, but it is a universe where certain rules apply. One of these rules is, it is a violent and cruel world. And if you don't like it, why the fuck are you watching it and complaining about it?

Complaining is all they have left. Like there were people signing petitions to bring back Ned Stark, thats how delusional it gets. I also had a friend that said he was going to stop watching it (he still does) after Oberyn died because all his favorites characters were dying.

Speaking of rape, Beecher from OZ turned out to be a pretty bad ass character, one could actually say that his abuse payed off. Wonder if there was any controversy back then....

Also one thing this show has some terrific titties casting, i mean i have yet to see a pair of titties that dissapoint me, being a tits man also helps i guess, and they're all natural as far as i can tell.

[koz-ivan]

Cersei and Lancel thought they were the only ones who knew about their affair (and the murder of Robert). They didn't have a clue Littlefinger was aware of both because he kept his mouth shut 'til last night when he dropped the info in Olenna's lap. And I think Lancel had already confessed but no action could be taken against Cersei until a non-sparrow made an accusation. Or something like that.

perhaps lancel confessed his sins early on, and was then somehow prompted to confess Cersei's sins by Littlefinger & Olena, or even perhaps the High Sparrow was playing a very long game with her knowing all along that they had the goods on her, that Cersei managed to implicate others first was a bonus.

either way, this is a scene that doesn't really benefit from the show's condensing things. I'd of liked to have seen the littlefinger / olena / lancel conversation play out.

[Baphomette]

The Battle at Hardhome is the most amazing thing I've seen on TV in, like, EVER.

[blackholesun]

That was fucking amazing. Absolutely wonderful television...

[Jinsai]

that was the best episode of a television thing I've ever seen.

[ltrandazzo]

Benioff refers to the head white walker as The Night King in the episode recap, so that confirms that.

[kdrcraig]

Good god that was awesome. Tyrion and Dany together was great, hopefully we get some more of them before the end of the season. Hardhome was incredible and completely unexpected. I'll be watching that episode again tonight after work.

[ambergris]

Obviously a fantastic episode, though I still wonder whether the undead are able to cross water. I mean, in terms of the big picture, if only Westeros is lost to the zombies, the world still moves on. I wondered if there's going to be a scene that shows how the undead "lords" are able to freeze water to walk on it.
Somehow, I think that there's not going to be that one evil cliffhanger of the books which has been spoiled to me.
I expected Arya's action would be this episode's showdown.

[Sallos]

Obviously a fantastic episode, though I still wonder whether the undead are able to cross water. I mean, in terms of the big picture, if only Westeros is lost to the zombies, the world still moves on. I wondered if there's going to be a scene that shows how the undead "lords" are able to freeze water to walk on it.
Somehow, I think that there's not going to be that one evil cliffhanger of the books which has been spoiled to me.
I expected Arya's action would be this episode's showdown.

If they can ride horses im pretty sure they can also sail boats.

Great episode. That White Walker "king" is seriously bad ass. Its good to see yet another decent "large" scale fighting scene, after the wildlings attack on the wall.

[Jinsai]

this ad would have already been incredibly weird even if it didn't feature Tormund Giantsbane, but I guess it makes it weirder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XvqoF7P7g

[marodi]

I don't have HBO so I cannot watch tonight's episode but the part of the Internet that's not broken (yet) is telling me that Stannis is being a bad bad boy...

[Jinsai]

WHAT THE FUCK!? That burning scene was awful...

[orestes]

Fuck R'hllor.

[Baphomette]

Oh, Stannis... After all the hours spent defending your character, you do this to me???

It is SO over.

[blackholesun]

That was absolutely brutal. They were kinda foreshadowing it hard, but I almost felt like there would be a situation were Davos would save her.

The last scene was pretty awesome. Dany's all like "peace out" I'm just gonna fly the fuck outta here.

[orestes]

Yo Harry Seaward, R'Hllor is the Lord of Light and has been mentioned numerous times on the show.

[kdrcraig]

The burning was real brutal and kind of destroyed Stannis as a character. No idea why they felt the need to do that.

Other than that, another great episode. Me and the girlfriend were nerding out hard waiting for Drogon to show up. Sure looks like we'll be all caught up to the books after the finale. Will be pretty cool to watch the show again without a clue as to what is going to happen.

[Jinsai]

The burning was real brutal and kind of destroyed Stannis as a character. No idea why they felt the need to do that.

Maybe they felt the need to "define" who Stannis was becoming. Either way, the show creators claimed that GRRMartin is the one who presented the scene to them.

[kdrcraig]

That's surprising, it would've been out of character for book Stannis too. Minor gripe, I don't really give a shit about Stannis. But that's a good point that maybe they wanted to make sure we knew who he was becoming.

[ambergris]

That was just very, very gloomy. For some reason, this season felt more gloomy to me than the others.

[orestes]

That's surprising, it would've been out of character for book Stannis too. Minor gripe, I don't really give a shit about Stannis. But that's a good point that maybe they wanted to make sure we knew who he was becoming.

Book Stannis: "Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."

[kdrcraig]

Haha, I forgot about that line. It makes even less sense after him saying that.

[Harry Seaward]

Yo Harry Seaward, R'Hllor is the Lord of Light and has been mentioned numerous times on the show.

Well my post was because I thought he was never mentioned by name, but I wasn't confident enough in that to keep my post up. My deleted post was more along the lines of your posts like the second Jaimie lost his hand, you posted a giant picture of a golden hand and "Bookmarking this thread in anticipation of an upcoming scene for Cersei...". I get that these aren't major spoilers per se, but I think I'm not the only show watcher who gets annoyed by the book-readers constantly dropping stuff like this.

Buuuuut, that's why I've tended to stay out of this thread in general, so I suppose it's my own fault. I can't help when fucking Entertainment Weekly posts a link minutes after the East Coast airing with major episode spoilers, but I can help coming into places where I know 'spoilers' will lurk. Not trying to start a bitch fight or anything, just wanted to elaborate on my deleted post.

[orestes]

I never posted a photo of a golden hand. I think that was slave2thewage.

[Findus]

The arena scene reminded me a lot of Attack of the Clones.

[Nyx]

Out of character? The man had his own brother killed ffs...if anything, this only makes his character clearer. Ambitious, ruthless man with only one goal in mind. Willing to step on anyone and anything. Like he's been doing from the very beginning.

[Mr. Blaileen]

Drogon is a boss.

[Baphomette]

Drogon is a Ukrainian Ironbelly.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111123032320/harrypotter/images/5/5d/Dragon_attack_Gringotts.JPG

[pulse]

Out of character? The man had his own brother killed ffs...if anything, this only makes his character clearer. Ambitious, ruthless man with only one goal in mind. Willing to step on anyone and anything. Like he's been doing from the very beginning.

Hammer → Nail.

[seasonsinthesky]

not to mention he was at a desperate impasse after the random fire thing.

you knew it'd get awful after her scene with Davos. :(

[Baphomette]

not to mention he was at a desperate impasse after the random fire thing.That random fire thing really irked me. Melisandre gave Davos and Stannis so much shit for not taking her along when they attacked King's Landing. "I wasn't there when the wildfire killed our men by the thousands. I could have saved those men." So, why didn't she save the hundred or so that died because of Ramsey's fires? PLOT FLAW.

Also, does Dany now have Greyscale? Is it only contagious if you touch the affected areas of another person? Isn't Jorah being just as traitorous by not revealing that he has it?

[orestes]

I think we can all agree they did wrong by Davos' character in this episode. He knew what was going to happen to Shireen and yet he did nothing. He didn't even know Gendry and he saved him from Melisandre.

[Baphomette]

He knew what was going to happen to Shireen and yet he did nothing.I don't think he believed Stannis would ever go through with it. I really don't. He got duped just liked me. Fucking asshole Stannis.

[RJK]

My assumption was you could only contact Greyscale by touching the affected area.

[Jinsai]

That random fire thing really irked me. Melisandre gave Davos and Stannis so much shit for not taking her along when they attacked King's Landing. "I wasn't there when the wildfire killed our men by the thousands. I could have saved those men." So, why didn't she save the hundred or so that died because of Ramsey's fires? PLOT FLAW.

I don't know if it's a plot flaw as much as it presents the possibility that Mellisandre is maybe full of shit. In the books they mentioned that she does some gimmicky slight of hand magic to impress people and get them to become believers.

[RJK]

I don't know if it's a plot flaw as much as it presents the possibility that Mellisandre is maybe full of shit. In the books they mentioned that she does some gimmicky slight of hand magic to impress people and get them to become believers.

They infer numerous times on the show that she uses slight of hand to impress people.

[Baphomette]

They infer numerous times on the show that she uses slight of hand to impress people.She actually admits it herself. I'd forgotten about that. But using slight of hand is one thing. She stated point blank that she could have saved men during Blackwater Bay. And as I'm typing this, I'm realizing that it's fucking Melisandre we're talking about and yeah... Never mind.

[Harry Seaward]

Slight of hand? Doesn't she summon smoke demons and shit?

[marodi]

I don't know about series Melisandre but I'm 2/3 through A Clash of Kings and book Melisandre definitely "gave birth to" killer shadows.

Renly and ser Cortnay Penrose would have a thing or two to say about that. Davos too, by the way.

Maybe she is a one-trick pony but that one trick is so impressive that Stannis will believe everything she says. Or he is so desperate that he'll try anything.

[kdrcraig]

I think there are some legit things she can do, like the shadow baby, but she also uses a lot of cheap tricks to get people to believe. She's just not as powerful as she lets on. Pretty sure this lord of light isn't going to mean dick in the end game.

[theimage13]

Spoiler: end game...everyone dies.

[blackholesun]

Excited for the finale tomorrow. Apparently the "previous on" leaked and it features some characters that haven't been on the show since S1.

[orestes]

Yeah, the finale leaked a couple of days ago and screen grabs have been floating around.

[slave2thewage]

That was A+ trolling with the Previously On and the ending.

[theimage13]

Well, I liked the episode. Lots of loose ends; things that may not be as they appear. But IF they are...well, quite honestly, my interest is pretty much gone. If 90% of the things I was interested in are now moot, then frankly, I'm just feeling a bit apathetic.

For me, there's absolutely no sense of "I can't believe I have to wait a year for the next season" right now. It's more like "well...okay, I'll probably watch it when it returns, but whatever."

[Swykk]

It feels a bit like they'll bring this one back. I know the show's reputation and all, but it feels like that's not the end. Blood melting snow and all. Plus Melissandre. It might be wishful thinking.

[orestes]

House Baratheon is dead.

Also, the makeup department must have used Dermablend by the tubes to cover Lena's tattoos.

[Conan The Barbarian]

All in going to say is, they didn't bring lady stoneheart into the show for a reason.

[skip niklas]

I was thinking the same thing Conan, but I just read that he got a haircut. I think he's really done.

[slave2thewage]

http://www.marthasbackyard.co.nz/images/Wishbone%20Creamy%20caesar%20dressing%2016%20oz.jp g

I'm sad there was no Yara this year.

[orestes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Y4Ls0FvPQ

[Baphomette]

House Baratheon is dead.Not quite.


Also, the makeup department must have used Dermablend by the tubes to cover Lena's tattoos.Joe Blasco. It's the shit.

[playwithfire]

House Baratheon is dead.

Also, the makeup department must have used Dermablend by the tubes to cover Lena's tattoos.

Body double and great CGI actually.

[blackholesun]

That was a finale of GOT alright. Mega trolling in the "previously on". Season 6 should be great, hopefully we will have TWOW by then, but who knows.

[koz-ivan]

sometimes I find this show infuriating:

seriously brianne watches the tower for all this time then as soon as sansa lights the freaking candle she's all "oh lets go kill Stannis in the name of my old lord, because clearly he's not totally fucked anyway"

Stannis and his whole arc would have had maybe some impact if there was any real affection left for him, the only good outcome there would have been stannis and bolton killing each other.

I did like Davos at the end, while everybody was asking about Stannis, he asked about the princess instead.

[valiantsteed]

From the moment early in the season when Stannis offered him Winterfell, and he turned it down, I knew Jon was dead to rights. You don't survive a dumb move like that in this universe. The best thing about Game of Thrones from an audience perspective is all of the stupid characters get killed. Well almost all of them *cough*Sansa*cough*. Even the ones you like and root for (Ned, for example), you ultimately understand that they chose nobility over their life and that at least brings some comfort to their demises. This time was interesting because every chance they had all season to cut Jon down when I suspected they would, he survived and looked all the more powerful for it. They managed to take it until the very last moment of the season to bring forth what I assumed was inevitable, just when I finally thought it might not happen. At least he got to do one final act of good by saving Sam as he would have been ass fucked ten ways from sunday had he stuck around to witness that.

I also don't get that turncoat nightwatch fuck. If you truly didn't believe it was the right thing to do with the wildlings, why open the gates in the first place when they returned? Just leave them marooned out there. It was like they knew it was what they needed to do, but they just wanted a reason to kill him any way. I think what will happen is the lead Viking wildling will find out about that, start a beef with them, and just as they are starting to fight it out, whitewalkers come over the wall and annhiliate them all. Interesting thought that Millisandre will revive Jon, my wife figured since they didn't burn him, he could be converted to a white walker once they storm the wall and come back as a bad ass walker warrior who ends up slaying Roose and Ramsey, etc.

Overall it was a solid slow burning season, I enjoyed it all very much. I hope season 6 doesn't keep Daenerys and Tyrion seperated for too long with her doing some long pointless storyline with the mountain people thought, they are just too great together to seperate so quickly.

The finale was missing one thing though. Cersei did what she had to do. It was awful. But she did it and she made it. The one thing I wanted to see was her give a shit eating grin when she got back to the castle and they closed the door. I can't wait for the zombified Mountain to let loose. Like as brutal as that walk of shame was, where was the show of happiness that her perserverance paid off, alongside the knowledge she would get her revenge on that priest fuck and that bitch nun? Again, stupid characters die and letting Cersei out after doing that to her was one of the stupidest things you could ever do. I just wanted to see that on her face for a split second.

Does Jaime turn the boat around? He has to, right? Book readers don't answer that.

[theimage13]

sometimes I find this show infuriating:

seriously brianne watches the tower for all this time then as soon as sansa lights the freaking candle she's all "oh lets go kill Stannis in the name of my old lord, because clearly he's not totally fucked anyway"

To be fair, Brianne left her watch BEFORE Sansa lit the candle. She didn't see the signal and go "fuck this, I'm going after Stannis". She weighed the fact that Sansa was adamant about never using the signal versus going after someone she could actually take on.

[koz-ivan]

To be fair, Brianne left her watch BEFORE Sansa lit the candle. She didn't see the signal and go "fuck this, I'm going after Stannis". She weighed the fact that Sansa was adamant about never using the signal versus going after someone she could actually take on.

that is true, however, we are to expect that she kept that vigil all along then abandons it right before it matters.

[RJK]

Am I the only one who thinks it odd that they didn't show Stannis get killed? (non book reader here.)

[orestes]

sometimes I find this show infuriating:

seriously brianne watches the tower for all this time then as soon as sansa lights the freaking candle she's all "oh lets go kill Stannis in the name of my old lord, because clearly he's not totally fucked anyway"

Stannis and his whole arc would have had maybe some impact if there was any real affection left for him, the only good outcome there would have been stannis and bolton killing each other.

I did like Davos at the end, while everybody was asking about Stannis, he asked about the princess instead.

One of the constant criticisms I've had with the show this season has been inconsistent character behavior, Brienne and Ellaria being obvious examples.

[kdrcraig]

Am I the only one who thinks it odd that they didn't show Stannis get killed? (non book reader here.)

They didn't "show" it in the books either, just alluded to it. I'm taking the show as confirmation that he's dead in the books. Ha

[Jinsai]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/TheAmityvilleghost/Screen%20Shot%202015-06-15%20at%2010.23.33%20AM.png

[marodi]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/TheAmityvilleghost/Screen%20Shot%202015-06-15%20at%2010.23.33%20AM.png

Is Jon Snow dead? (http://www.vulture.com/2015/06/jon-snow-theories-game-of-thrones.html)

So, Jon Snow is dead. Long live... Jon Snow? Jon Targaryen? Zombie Jon Snow? Ghost Jon Snow?

@Miss Baphomette (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=11) our little song needs a new verse.

[DigitalChaos]

Did you guys not notice the heavy focus on resurrection in the last few episodes? Maybe they will have him come back and lead the white walkers against Danerys. That would be a pretty amazing character pivot. Maybe they will have him come back along the lines of whatever is going on with the obvious reanimated Hound thing that we were shown in the last episode.

[slave2thewage]

I wonder how much money HBO are giving Kit to throw fans off the scent.

[sa_nick]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/TheAmityvilleghost/Screen%20Shot%202015-06-15%20at%2010.23.33%20AM.png

Haha, I just went to check and it's even better now...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t35.0-12/11011555_10153312520322488_4462219939185377712_o.j pg?oh=8526f005c5c844b5fef4ce391d084737&oe=5581AD94&__gda__=1434582843_d1702162540c1e2b46502019f762cdd 5

[Mr. Blaileen]

In the past, spoilers for this show didn't bother me much, since I had already read the books and knew (generally) what was coming. Now that this season is over..we're in a weird spot where episodes going forward will be mostly new information to everybody. Spoilers are a way bigger deal now (for me) moving forward. Next season will be nuts. Effin' crazy that we're already waiting for season six.

I'm about to start the s5 finale right now. Can't wait.

[marodi]

I wonder how much money HBO are giving Kit to throw fans off the scent.

He does seem to be soooo happy and excited to tell everyone Jon is really dead, doesn't he? I kept picturing him like a little kid jumping up and down out of joy.

"I'M DEAD, I'M DEAD; I'M REALLY REALLY DEAD! YAAAAAAY!!!"

Someone out of a job should not be so pleased.

[Baphomette]

That scene from The Others:
WE'RE NOT DEAD! WE'RE NOT DEAD! WE'RE NOT DEAD! *rips up pieces of paper and throws them in the air*

[orestes]

They didn't "show" it in the books either, just alluded to it. I'm taking the show as confirmation that he's dead in the books. Ha

Are you talking about the pink letter? Consider the source. ;)

Disappointed in the reaction videos so far.

[Mr. Blaileen]

Wow. Even knowing what was coming, that entire episode was pretty brutal to watch.

[kdrcraig]

No clue what the pink letter is. I'm just going off what I remember from the book

[orestes]

No clue what the pink letter is. I'm just going off what I remember from the book

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastard_Letter

[kdrcraig]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastard_Letter

Ha yep that's what I meant, didn't know it had a name. That's what I mean, it was Ramsay saying it but the show confirmed it, in my opinion

[slave2thewage]

I was really hoping for that letter to turn up in the show. But it didn't, which is quite a...

SHAME. SHAME. SHAME.

http://d51kvxznt2q0d.cloudfront.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/480x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/c/school-bell-1_1.jpg

[Piko]

Just watched the finale. Fuck...

[Vertigo]

I think something of varying degrees of bad happened to just about everybody in that episode. Ridiculously bleak way to leave the show for 10 months.

[ambergris]

Of course, Jon Snow is dead, otherwise he couldn't be revived...
I like the theory that he's going to return in season 7, possibly spending his time as a semi-aware undead until then. Maybe he actually WILL see Benjen.
I also like the idea that Brienne didn't kill Stannis so that they can now try to save Sansa... and then Stannis marries Sansa...looool.

[Ruined]

I find it odd that some are cheering for Cersei, as if she's some sort of hero. In my opinion she got what she deserved: We're talking about someone who was screwing her sibling, had no problem watching her brother nearly killing a kid who caught them in the act, proudly backed her scum-bag son when he was a ruthless king and was part of countless other atrocities. After all, ironically, she was the one who arrogantly gave the High Sparrow power, thinking she could control him and his religious zealots. Now some think her and zombie Mountain (another despicable character) should get their revenge? I say the chickens have come home to roost and she got what she deserved.

As for Jon Snow, I too believe he is dead for good. But, let's say he does come back: He's going to be a mindless cog (either via the White Walkers or some form of magic that made the Mountain a purple mute). Snow will not have any of the characteristics that some have grown to like and he certainly won't be turned into some leader in the White Walker camp. At best, he'd merely be raised from the dead (like the other folks who were killed by the White Walkers) and rampage as part of the group. Either way, the Snow that everyone rooted for is dead and gone.

[Baphomette]

As for Jon Snow, I too believe he is dead for good. But, let's say he does come back: He's going to be a mindless cog (either via the White Walkers or some form of magic that made the Mountain a purple mute). Snow will not have any of the characteristics that some have grown to like and he certainly won't be turned into some leader in the White Walker camp. At best, he'd merely be raised from the dead (like the other folks who were killed by the White Walkers) and rampage as part of the group. Either way, the Snow that everyone rooted for is dead and gone.Quite a few people seem to have forgotten Beric Dondarrion, whom Thoros of Myr brought back from the dead SIX times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wboON-Z-eqI

[marodi]

There's also a theory out there that the reason why the series doesn't have Lady Stoneheart is that they are going to substitute her for the "new" Jon Snow.

I'm not so sure about that but who knows?

[Ruined]

Well, personally, I hope they do not bring back Jon Snow. I like that the show kills key, well-liked characters. It adds weight to the whole show. If they start resorting to crowd-pleasing gimmicks simply because there is such an outcry for the return of a beloved character, GoT will lose one of the many things that makes it an excellent show.

[ambergris]

I just read a hint somewhere else: Kit Harington currently has no film projects planned for 2016...
@ Miss Baphomette: Yes, the Dondarrion thing gets forgotten sometimes. Alternatively, Melisandre might burn herself and give Snow his life force back, like Mirri Maz Durr sort-of died for the dragon eggs.

[mfte]

Well, personally, I hope they do not bring back Jon Snow. I like that the show kills key, well-liked characters. It adds weight to the whole show. If they start resorting to crowd-pleasing gimmicks simply because there is such an outcry for the return of a beloved character, GoT will lose one of the many things that makes it an excellent show.


But on the opposite end of that is the fact that they shouldn't just kill major character for no reason but to shock and scare the populace. It's not like Jon is pronounced dead in the books and bringing him back in season 6 would go against that. I agree that would be cheap. I personally feel that Snow is the heart of that show and pretty much the only character with a lot of redeeming qualities. Comparing this to another great show that killed off your favourite characters... it would be like The Wire killing off Bubbles. IT AINT RIGHT.

[Ruined]

But on the opposite end of that is the fact that they shouldn't just kill major character for no reason but to shock and scare the populace. It's not like Jon is pronounced dead in the books and bringing him back in season 6 would go against that. I agree that would be cheap. I personally feel that Snow is the heart of that show and pretty much the only character with a lot of redeeming qualities. Comparing this to another great show that killed off your favourite characters... it would be like The Wire killing off Bubbles. IT AINT RIGHT.
Was killing Ned at the end of season 1 right? He was far more noble than Snow. Nonetheless, the show managed to survive. Further, the killing was not out of nowhere, merely for shock-value. The tension between Jon's loyalty to the Night Watch and his alliance with the Wildlings has been around for a while now. Further, the Night Watch is not the noblest of groups, so, it definitely fit into their way of doing things. Snow's dead and people need to accept it. I am enjoying how much people are crying over it, though.

[Vertigo]

The important thing is that if there's no relatable character at a location or in a faction, how are we supposed to care about that location/faction? When Ned Stark died, we still had Tyrion and Sansa at King's Landing. The end of the Stark rebellion allowed Ned's surviving children to continue developing independently, gave Stannis a new battleground and allowed the Lannisters to eat themselves.

With Jon dead and Sam heading south with Gilly to sharpen his maestering skills, we're left with nobody at the Wall to care about. Putting my chips in the resurrection hat... not sure what the feudal Europe parallel would be, though.

[koz-ivan]

The important thing is that if there's no relatable character at a location or in a faction, how are we supposed to care about that location/faction?

while i'm 75% sure Jon isn't fully gone, to play devil's advocate, Davos is at the wall, Stannis is dead to him (even if Stannis pulls a miracle not being dead moment) and the night's watch could use someone with the creative logistics of Ser Davos.

The wall could be Sansa's destination as well, at least as a starting point to then find bran & rickon.

---

all that being said, overall this was a pretty meh season (at least by GoT standards) i feel like there are too many plates spinning, and nobody except the boltons have any kind of clear trajectory.

The tyrells are still in prison.

the lannisters are as weak as they have ever been.

Jon is supposed to be dead.

Danny is now even further removed from Westeros despite the arrival of Tyrion.

Sansa is on the run.

Stannis took a major heel turn, and is most likely dead anyway.

Brianne is seemingly 100% irrelevant.

Ayria is blind. and pretty much a sideshow for awhile now.

Littlefinger is always interesting, but mia as of late.

and everything about dorne still sucks. to put it differently at least dorne isn't as bad as the iron islands.

Tyrion, Varus & Greyworm now that has potential to be amazing, but like Danny seems like b plot at best.

meanwhile, the white walkers, despite their glacial pace, are stronger than ever and currently completely ignored by every other major player currently on the board. is it too late to start rooting for them?

[skullboy0]

meanwhile, the white walkers, despite their glacial pace, are stronger than ever and currently completely ignored by every other major player currently on the board. is it too late to start rooting for them?

Given their pace, I don't think it's ever too late to start rooting for them.;)

[slave2thewage]

Ian McShane in season six. (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/01/game-thrones-ian-mcshane)

If he was a bit younger, I thought he would be our Euron Greyjoy but I SUSPECT he's going to be a new character.

[orestes]

Possibly the Mad King?

[Swykk]

What's the over/under he uses the word "cocksucker" a lot?

[Baphomette]

Possibly the Mad King?I'm still holding on to the hope they WON'T do a flashback.

[slave2thewage]

All I want right now from the next season is a five minute musical number from Mace Tyrell, the elusive chanteuse of Highgarden.

[slave2thewage]

Max Von Sydow has just been announced as a recast for the Three-Eyed Raven.

JIEWJIDKJDSKLJDLSAJDLASJDBCBSNJCKNWS.

[Baphomette]

Max Von Sydow has just been announced as a recast for the Three-Eyed Raven.

JIEWJIDKJDSKLJDLSAJDLASJDBCBSNJCKNWS.Shut up. Shut. Up. SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP!!!!

AQWER;JQWE;QWERKJ;QA DSFAQWER EAR

[skip niklas]

Was killing Ned at the end of season 1 right? He was far more noble than Snow. Nonetheless, the show managed to survive.

The difference here being that Ned's death set in motion the war of the 5 kings. It was a plot device. Snow's death would leave too many open plots unresolved, including the biggest unknown throughout the series (Jon's parentage).



Possibly the Mad King?


Or Marwyn in Old Town.


I'm still holding on to the hope they WON'T do a flashback.

I have a feeling your hopes will be dashed as it appears they're looking to cast Arthur Dayne. A Tower of Joy flashback looks to be in the cards for S6.

[Baphomette]

skip niklas, I'm facepalming the flashback, not your comment. :)

Also, my friend and his family went to Iceland for their vacation and this happened:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/missdv8/11863388_10204698035913172_3949014226108264230_n_z psw5rnn2jk.jpg

[Vertigo]

I'm pretty sure I made the little girl's expression during his last speaking scene.

[Baphomette]

New theory about Jon Snow. VERY SPOILERY! (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jon-snow-theory-game-of-thrones_55dcbb45e4b04ae49704bcf3?ncid=fcbklnkushpm g00000063)

[orestes]

Whoaaaaaaa.

[marodi]

Whoaaaaaaa.

http://static4.fjcdn.com/comments/What+_28ca4186abdc77d023e465ae1a32e58c.jpg

[orestes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6PSUdTuFAQ

[october_midnight]

That theory is crazy...and quite possibly true.

[Baphomette]

Danish actor Pilou Asbæk reportedly cast as Euron Greyjoy (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/09/01/danish-actor-pilou-asbaek-reportedly-cast-as-euron-greyjoy/)

More spoilery story at Watcher's on the Wall (http://watchersonthewall.com/sources-report-euron-cast-major-scene-filmed-today-in-ballintoy-harbour/#more-43831)

If this is true, who's Ian McShane playing?

[slave2thewage]

If Pilou is our Euron, then may the sails of the Silence be made of my underwear since I'll be ripping them off.

*fans self repeatedly*

Edit - oh my god, he was the Eurovision presenter I was crushing on a few years back. Truly, everything perfect is related.

[orestes]

Danish actor Pilou Asbæk reportedly cast as Euron Greyjoy (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/09/01/danish-actor-pilou-asbaek-reportedly-cast-as-euron-greyjoy/)

More spoilery story at Watcher's on the Wall (http://watchersonthewall.com/sources-report-euron-cast-major-scene-filmed-today-in-ballintoy-harbour/#more-43831)

If this is true, who's Ian McShane playing?

Howlen Reed?

[marodi]

Danish actor Pilou Asbæk reportedly cast as Euron Greyjoy (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/09/01/danish-actor-pilou-asbaek-reportedly-cast-as-euron-greyjoy/)

More spoilery story at Watcher's on the Wall (http://watchersonthewall.com/sources-report-euron-cast-major-scene-filmed-today-in-ballintoy-harbour/#more-43831)

If this is true, who's Ian McShane playing?


Possibly the Mad King?

YASSSS! Sorry Miss B. Me thinks we're getting flashbacks.


Howlen Reed?

Mmm... we'll see.

[slave2thewage]

If we are getting flashbacks, I want him to play Rickard Stark.

[orestes]

Seems a bit old to be playing Rickard.

[slave2thewage]

Seems a bit old to be playing Rickard.

TOO OLD.

tenchars

[Dr.Z]

If this is true, who's Ian McShane playing?
I would expect him to play Randyll Tarly

[marodi]

I would expect him to play Randyll Tarly

I was thinking that too but wouldn't he be too old for the part? Although he fits the part and Sam being scared to death of his father would make even more sense...

​Mad King Aerys.

[orestes]

And the hits keep coming. (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/09/08/richard-e-grant-reportedly-cast-in-game-of-thrones-season-6/)

[marodi]

And the hits keep coming. (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/09/08/richard-e-grant-reportedly-cast-in-game-of-thrones-season-6/)

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG *loses mind completely*

But who will he play (if it's confirmed)? Tall, thin, with a very peculiar eye color... Please Many-Faced God let it be true!

[Dr.Z]

There's more information on Ian McShane's role on the usual news sites for those who want to be spoiled ;)

[Baphomette]

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/GoT_spoiler_warning.gif

MAJOR spoilers on Watchers on the Wall regarding that guy who knows nothing and other stuff (http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-gets-theatrical-plus-massive-spoilers-for-season-six/).

[orestes]

slave2thewage, care to join in? ;)

[slave2thewage]

I am but a young maid who knows nothing of battle scenes...

[marodi]

Spoiler ahead!

In which He Who Knows Nothing... SPOILER! (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-kit-harington-all-but-admits-jon-snow-isnt-dead-will-be-in-the-show-for-seasons-to-come-10501224.html?cmpid=facebook-post)

Spoiler! Spoiler alert! SPOILER. HAVE I SAID THE ABOVE LINK IS SPOILER-ISH?

[orestes]

The Tarlys have been cast. (http://watchersonthewall.com/meet-the-tarlys-game-of-thrones-adds-three-more-actors-to-season-6/)

[slave2thewage]

Aeron Greyjoy was sighted at a filming location, no word on who the actor is yet.

Also, if the 4chan spoilers are legit, then this season is insane.

[marodi]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUghf-tWsAQ5ftS.jpg