Boston Marathon

[allegro]

He's GONNA GET A TRIAL. That's already been established. Stop being so negative. We don't need that shit right now.

Yes, agreed that we need to do everything we can to play by the rules so that we send the right message to our own citizens, let alone other countries. He's been kept alive thus far, that's very impressive.

[Piko]

He'll get medical treatment like a king. Much better than your average joe without insurance. They're going to make damn sure he makes trial after all of this.

[Fixer808]

For one, if he DOES die in custody the speculation of why the two did it will get Kennedy Assassination-esque.

Edit: Oh god, my cousin invented this cocktail. It sounds pretty delicious, frankly:

The Suspect #2 -
Hide a cherry in the bottom of a cocktail glass.
Agitate in a shaker:
1 oz Absinthe (an alcohol that seems like any other but can cause more damage)
1 oz of OJ
1 oz water (Watertown)
LOTS of bitters
Strain into the cocktail glass.

[allegro]

Yeah my husband has already expressed his fear of a Jack Ruby.

[Leviathant]

Are they really thinking of trying him as an enemy combatant?
Isn't he an American citizen who committed a crime on American soil?

Please, like I said earlier in the thread - if you're asking questions like this, it helps if you post the source. Eric Cantor made it clear years ago, we don't even use the term "enemy combatant" anymore, that's Bush era bullshit.

I've seen an incredible pattern on Facebook and Twitter of people who are completely looney about a phantom menace to the second amendment and Obama takin' our guns, turning around and saying, don't mirandize him, treat him like a terrorist. Including Senator Lindsey Graham (https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/325348075197583361). What a shithead.

[kdrcraig]

I've seen an incredible pattern on Facebook and Twitter of people who are completely looney about a phantom menace to the second amendment and Obama takin' our guns, turning around and saying, don't mirandize him, treat him like a terrorist. Including Senator Lindsey Graham (https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/325348075197583361). What a shithead.

The comments on that tweet are encouraging, I'm not being sarcastic

[Piko]

After the extreme caution they went through to take him ib ALIVE. I highly doubt they'll let him die in custody to the very best of their abilities. He's going to trial. He's an American citizen and he committed a crime. What more is there to understand about that. He's going to trial, then jail (unless they decide to execute).

[Wretchedest]

Please, like I said earlier in the thread - if you're asking questions like this, it helps if you post the source. Eric Cantor made it clear years ago, we don't even use the term "enemy combatant" anymore, that's Bush era bullshit.

I've seen an incredible pattern on Facebook and Twitter of people who are completely looney about a phantom menace to the second amendment and Obama takin' our guns, turning around and saying, don't mirandize him, treat him like a terrorist. Including Senator Lindsey Graham (https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/325348075197583361). What a shithead.

I actually saw some people saying the whole thing was the mask for the passing of CISPA. And then, in a strange twist, I was able to talk them into ignoring infowars in the future.

[DigitalChaos]

Interview with the mother...
She is also saying that they were setup (just like the father said). Kind of hard to reconcile that when they are literally throwing bombs out of the car. However, her comments about the FBI counseling him for 5 years..... WHAT?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u3RkLaKkCs



If this turns into something where the FBI was working with them I might actually give credit to some of the conspiracy stuff. There have been many situations where our government was trying to catch people by allowing terror plots to move forward in a "controlled" way but end up losing control and shit goes bad. Stuff along these lines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CwTpJ1EoV6A#!

[Amaro]

https://twitter.com/Hossenator/status/325419984954208257/photo/1

[Wretchedest]

worst "gotcha photo ever" 4 decked out swat guys standing over a skinny, limp kid with a bloody nose...

[Leviathant]

worst "gotcha photo ever" 4 decked out swat guys standing over a skinny, limp kid with a bloody nose...

...applying medical assistance, having determined he's not wearing an explosive vest, from the looks of it. Twitter feeds from reporters on the scene indicated that the suspect requested medical assistance before he came out. There's a twitter photo of him stepping out of the boat (https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/325443225328439296/photo/1/large), as well as stills from the ambulance where his face is covered with blood (https://twitter.com/MagicSpeaks/status/325433506832465921/photo/1/large). Given the amount of bullets fired in his general direction over the previous 24 hours, it's probably a safe bet that he caught a few. And hey, maybe he wasn't belted in when he ran his brother over while fleeing.

[allegro]

I know some may disagree with me but to me this is all really sad. How did these 2 kids' lives go so wrong?

[elevenism]

Please, like I said earlier in the thread - if you're asking questions like this, it helps if you post the source. Eric Cantor made it clear years ago, we don't even use the term "enemy combatant" anymore, that's Bush era bullshit.

I've seen an incredible pattern on Facebook and Twitter of people who are completely looney about a phantom menace to the second amendment and Obama takin' our guns, turning around and saying, don't mirandize him, treat him like a terrorist. Including Senator Lindsey Graham (https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/325348075197583361). What a shithead.

Unfortunately, this just in from CNN: Official, Citing Safety Exception: Government Doesn't Have to Read Miranda Rights to Bombings Suspect
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area-violence/index.html

[jessamineny]

...applying medical assistance, having determined he's not wearing an explosive vest, from the looks of it. Twitter feeds from reporters on the scene indicated that the suspect requested medical assistance before he came out. There's a twitter photo of him stepping out of the boat (https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/325443225328439296/photo/1/large), as well as stills from the ambulance where his face is covered with blood (https://twitter.com/MagicSpeaks/status/325433506832465921/photo/1/large). Given the amount of bullets fired in his general direction over the previous 24 hours, it's probably a safe bet that he caught a few. And hey, maybe he wasn't belted in when he ran his brother over while fleeing.

According to the scanner chatter, he was hit squarely in the face with one of the flashbangs, so that was probably one of his injuries.

[elevenism]

Please, like I said earlier in the thread - if you're asking questions like this, it helps if you post the source. Eric Cantor made it clear years ago, we don't even use the term "enemy combatant" anymore, that's Bush era bullshit.

I've seen an incredible pattern on Facebook and Twitter of people who are completely looney about a phantom menace to the second amendment and Obama takin' our guns, turning around and saying, don't mirandize him, treat him like a terrorist. Including Senator Lindsey Graham (https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/325348075197583361). What a shithead.

Unfortunately, this just in from CNN: Official, Citing Safety Exception: Government Doesn't Have to Read Miranda Rights to Bombings Suspect
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area-violence/index.html

I hope that we are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT SURE that this thing in Texas was an accident, or shit might start getting pretty hectic in a big hurry.

[allegro]

Unfortunately, this just in from CNN: Official, Citing Safety Exception: Government Doesn't Have to Read Miranda Rights to Bombings Suspect
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area-violence/index.html
Already cited earlier in this thread, it's based on a SCOTUS decision in the interest of public safety. "What you say can and will be used against you in a Court of Law" and the right to "remain silent" vs. his possible knowledge of other bombers or bombs.

Re West, Texas: Rachel Maddow did a show about that, the company running that fertilizer plant has been served many citations, did a "controlled burn" of hazardous substances a while ago with zero notice and with a middle school full of kids only yards away (the school evacuated at that time), company slapped with $1,200 fine. That school is now leveled.

[Leviathant]

I know some may disagree with me but to me this is all really sad. How did these 2 kids' lives go so wrong?

I'm struggling with how to express those feelings myself. My instinct is to apply the Lee Boyd Malvo model to this situation - the younger brother being misled by the older brother. Details of the Watertown shootout that came from reporters on the scene really have me thinking. Apparently, in the shootout, the older brother exited the vehicle and exchanged gunfire with the police, but was struck down. At this point, the younger brother got in the vehicle, and in the process of fleeing the scene, ran his brother over. Of course, details straight from the people directly on the scene will filter out as the days and weeks go by, but if that was the case, was that some kind of turning point for the younger brother? He didn't go on to commit any further violence, on other people nor on himself. And he's only nineteen years old... I can't even imagine.

Even if details come to light about what led them down this path, I don't think it's going to 'explain' the reasons in any satisfying way. But I'm admittedly fascinated by the whole week that's gone by. And the surviving kid is the one who wheelchair-dude made eye contact with and was able to describe to police, which ultimately led to identification. It's all just, wow.

[DigitalChaos]

According to the scanner chatter, he was hit squarely in the face with one of the flashbangs, so that was probably one of his injuries.
that's kinda funny...
(assuming he is guilty of the bombing)

[DigitalChaos]

Interview with the mother...
She is also saying that they were setup (just like the father said). Kind of hard to reconcile that when they are literally throwing bombs out of the car. However, her comments about the FBI counseling him for 5 years..... WHAT?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u3RkLaKkCs



If this turns into something where the FBI was working with them I might actually give credit to some of the conspiracy stuff. There have been many situations where our government was trying to catch people by allowing terror plots to move forward in a "controlled" way but end up losing control and shit goes bad. Stuff along these lines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CwTpJ1EoV6A#!


Looks like this is probably what she was referring to: http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/2011-request-for-information-on-tamerlan-tsarnaev-from-foreign-government

Based on this, it's very doubtful there is any FBI/government involvement. The government does get wrapped in this stuff at times but it's almost always due to negligence and failure when it happens. The parents claims are understandable considering the emotional situation and the fact that they live in a very corrupt place.

There is a larger than normal group of people wanting to claim conspiracy here. I don't know what it is. I tried my best to give it some credit but... just not happening.

[sentient02970]

Not seeing much about the circumstances that led to that MIT cop getting killed which kicked this off. Did the poor guy actually ID them and approached or did they really just "ambush" him for whatever reason like the news is alluding but not confirming?

[cynicmuse]

Not seeing much about the circumstances that led to that MIT cop getting killed which kicked this off. Did the poor guy actually ID them and approached or did they really just "ambush" him for whatever reason like the news is alluding but not confirming?
That's what I want to know as well and what they were doing on Vassar. The Tech (http://tech.mit.edu/V133/N19/policeman.html) (MIT's student newspaper) has a little blurb about the events, but nothing that hasn't been seen elsewhere.
Edit for clarity: Oops. I wasn't trying to imply that they didn't kill him or that I was wearing a tin foil hat. Before the carjacking near Third St (post murder), where they told their victim that they were the bombers, I didn't think that anyone knew where the bombers were. I'm still a little spooked by another one of my old haunts getting turned into a crime scene, complete with ATF, Harvard police, BU police, Cambridge police, and MIT police.

[Sutekh]

Bombing suspects go missing, dead policeman in place where they've gone missing from, I don't see how a leap has been made

[jessamineny]

Not seeing much about the circumstances that led to that MIT cop getting killed which kicked this off. Did the poor guy actually ID them and approached or did they really just "ambush" him for whatever reason like the news is alluding but not confirming?

I read he was killed while he was sitting in his car. Beyond that, I don't know.

[Deepvoid]

I can't believe the FBI interviewed them in 2011. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/20/us-usa-explosions-boston-fbi-idUSBRE93J00C20130420

That means they were somewhat flag as persons of interest.

[allegro]

I'm not believing any info until I see it confirmed by the appropriate authorities. There has been a lot of false info in this case.

[DigitalChaos]

See my last post. I linked directly to the FBI's site. That's about as official as it gets.

[allegro]

See my last post. I linked directly to the FBI's site. That's about as official as it gets.
ah, okay, I didn't see that, I only saw the above Reuters link.

FBI says:
"Once the FBI learned the identities of the two brothers today, the FBI reviewed its records and determined that in early 2011, a foreign government asked the FBI for information about Tamerlan Tsarnaev. The request stated that it was based on information that he was a follower of radical Islam and a strong believer, and that he had changed drastically since 2010 as he prepared to leave the United States for travel to the country’s region to join unspecified underground groups.

In response to this 2011 request, the FBI checked U.S. government databases and other information to look for such things as derogatory telephone communications, possible use of online sites associated with the promotion of radical activity, associations with other persons of interest, travel history and plans, and education history. The FBI also interviewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev and family members. The FBI did not find any terrorism activity, domestic or foreign, and those results were provided to the foreign government in the summer of 2011. The FBI requested but did not receive more specific or additional information from the foreign government."

Yeah, that sounds like there was zero going on at that time to suggest that they were doing anything bad according to whatever information was available.

[marodi]

Even if details come to light about what led them down this path, I don't think it's going to 'explain' the reasons in any satisfying way.

As one of the senior users here (in real life age, not on how long I've been a member) I've seen my fair share of tragedies like this and one of the things I've learned from them is that there never is a satisfying answer as to why it happened. Answers and reasons bring no sense of closure whatsoever.


And the surviving kid is the one who wheelchair-dude made eye contact with and was able to describe to police, which ultimately led to identification. It's all just, wow.

Speaking of him (https://twitter.com/Edelman11/status/325083563810762753/photo/1)

[aggroculture]

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/04/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-is-found.html

[Sutekh]

er general tip, you can't trust your internal security agency more than an international news agency... not that I'm saying they're lying in this case, but let us be real

[DigitalChaos]

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/04/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-is-found.html
I want to 'like' this 10 times.
"an already exaggerated sense of the risk of terrorism turned a horrible story of maiming and death and cruelty into a national epic of fear. What terrorists want is to terrify people; Americans always oblige."

I do recall people flipping their shit early in this thread when someone was warning against taking this route.


and now we also have this bullshit:
Boston bombing “is Exhibit A of why the homeland is the battlefield”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/04/19/sen-lindsey-graham-boston-bombing-is-exhibit-a-of-why-the-homeland-is-the-battlefield/

Graham, McCain: No criminal trial for captured suspect
http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/295127-graham-mccain-no-criminal-trial-for-captured-boston-bombing-suspect


and I think someone worried about the requests to increase government and infringe on rights that could possibly come pouring out. That made the thread angry too!

[allegro]

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/04/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-is-found.html

"We are now a nation of experts, with millions of people who know the meaning of everything that they haven’t actually experienced."

So true.

[DigitalChaos]

Billy nailed it during the national gun debate. He is doing it again.
I hope all the pro-gun chickenhawks who follow this guy will stop and think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_BPgG7M1R0

[Dra508]

He'll get medical treatment like a king. Much better than your average joe without insurance. They're going to make damn sure he makes trial after all of this.

Everyone in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has access to the kind of care this kid is getting. Best in the world.


I'm so curious about the timeline of events. What were these two doing between Monday afternoon and Thursday night? Why were they at MIT? It's close to their home, but it's still a college campus, albeit urban, that's a destination.

The town I used to live in farther west of Watertown reported that these boys' mom was arrested for shoplifting at the mall there a couple months before the younger son got his citizenship. Downward spiral of the American dream, I'd say.

[Sutekh]

Yep it all went wrong when you started letting insurrectionary immigrants on board... it's just not what America is about ;)

[DigitalChaos]

Yep it all went wrong when you started letting insurrectionary immigrants on board... it's just not what America is about ;)
I was so fucking close to face-palming this post this until I noticed the ";)" and your name.

[Sutekh]

It was meant to be a wink - Now I'm wondering how wars start

but in all seriousness - who knows? Maybe there is a limit. I honestly like to think America believes in its ideals in a death-or-glory, let's-find-out sort of way (whereas in Europe we have "live and let live - but on paper & always got the ethnic cleansing option" - not pretty, but true)

[Deepvoid]

Suspect may not be able to talk. (http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/boston-attack/index.html)

Damn ...

[kdrcraig]

He'll still be able to write or use a keyboard. Not really gonna prevent getting info out of him if he's willing to "talk"

[orestes]

This is fucking awesome.

http://animalnewyork.com/2013/the-apology-the-new-york-post-should-have-issued/

[Deepvoid]

He'll still be able to write or use a keyboard. Not really gonna prevent getting info out of him if he's willing to "talk"

I guess that rules out the "we'll cut your fingers one by one if you don't collaborate" threat..

[kdrcraig]

I guess that rules out the "we'll cut your fingers one by one if you don't collaborate" threat..

What do you mean? I'm not trying to be a douche, just saying that his ability to talk getting fucked up in the process of getting him to stop shooting at people doesn't mean he can't communicate. I didn't mean "getting info out of him" as I'm cool with torture or some shit

Edit: the quotations around talk were meant for if he can't actually speak. Not torture him until he says whatever people want him to.

[allegro]

His being unconscious would also be a good reason why he can't speak, He's in very serious condition and may not even survive.

[Satyr]

His being unconscious would also be a good reason why he can't speak, He's in very serious condition and may not even survive.

I'm gonna predict that if the kid does wake up that he claims he cannot remember what he did or why he did it.

Could even explain the cause of his 'amnesia' as being a result of anoxic brain injury from loss of blood.

[DigitalChaos]

"Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was a 'normal pot head' who supported President Obama for re-election last November, according to friends and his Twitter account"
http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/19/one-bombing-suspect-loved-pot-and-obama-the-other-was-married/

[Sutekh]

Jesus, don't read the comments on that link. Facebook is a shitstorm as well. Does either side of the petty political divide in America appreciate how classy it is to use this tragedy as some kind of stick to tenuously beat the other side with?!

[Deepvoid]

What do you mean? I'm not trying to be a douche, just saying that his ability to talk getting fucked up in the process of getting him to stop shooting at people doesn't mean he can't communicate. I didn't mean "getting info out of him" as I'm cool with torture or some shit

Edit: the quotations around talk were meant for if he can't actually speak. Not torture him until he says whatever people want him to.

That was actually just a joke!
I'm against torture as well but we all know your Gov. loves it. What's gonna save his ass is the fact that he's an American citizen, although some Republicans couldn't care less.

[DigitalChaos]

There is also this just starting to circulate:
Boston bombers: FBI hunting 12-strong terrorist “sleeper cell” linked to brothers Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/boston-bombers-fbi-hunting-12-strong-1844844

Keep in mind, this is a British Tabloid... It's yet to hit something with even CNN-level credibility.

[kdrcraig]

That was actually just a joke!
I'm against torture as well but we all know your Gov. loves it. What's gonna save his ass is the fact that he's an American citizen, although some Republicans couldn't care less.

Yeah...I was drunk last night. Not at my smartest at that point

[Deepvoid]

No worries. I got more facepalms then you ;)

Post-Boston Islamophobic has begun. (http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/04/the_post-boston_islamophobic_hate_crimes_have_begun.html)

[DigitalChaos]

No worries. I got more facepalms then you ;)

Post-Boston Islamophobic has begun. (http://colorlines.com/archives/2013/04/the_post-boston_islamophobic_hate_crimes_have_begun.html)
Stupid fucking tribalism strikes again. How are the criminals (alleged) different than me?.... FOUND SOMETHING! IT MUST BE THE REASON THEY DID THIS! ATTACK THE DIFFERENCE!

That difference can be "from a foreign country" or "gun owner" or "Islamic" or whatever the fuck these idiots think they can dig up that must be THE PROBLEM. It happens from right and left.


I think every muslim should be armed with some sort of self defense for a while. Shit is ridiculous.

[october_midnight]

Pretty interesting article.

How Boston Exposes America's Dark Post-9/11 Bargain (http://www.salon.com/2013/04/20/how_boston_exposes_americas_dark_post_911_bargain/)

[DigitalChaos]

Pretty interesting article.

How Boston Exposes America's Dark Post-9/11 Bargain (http://www.salon.com/2013/04/20/how_boston_exposes_americas_dark_post_911_bargain/)
Great article! Mostly... Shame he had to plug the gun-reform mention in there which runs counter to every point he was making. He didn't even mention CISPA slipping in while he was on that topic. I agree with the spirt of rights being infringed but to say that we have given up "most" of them since 9/11 is a little hyperbolic. I don't think the entire country was in a panic either, just very excited and wrapped up in the story. Overall, it's nice to see people thinking about it from this angle. I hope it becomes much more common.

[Dra508]

I've been out of town since the Thursday before this mess and I'm sort of not looking forward to going back to Massachusetts. All the chest thumping patriotism and we are invincible sport-fan attitude that is in the blood of so many up there gets me thinking that we are going to lose sight of some of the important lessons here, not the rah rah don't fuck with Boston crap.

Ugh - I hope that kid lives.. We need to learn from this.

[DigitalChaos]

I have not agreed with the people claiming significant rights violations with the house-to-house raids that occurred. After seeing this video I am starting to question it...

That sure didn't look voluntary. It seemed pretty over the top. The means certainly didn't justify the ends either (the police never found him).

Thoughts after watching this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8

[Deepvoid]

There's little background info.
Did they receive a tip for that particular house. Was this protocol for every houses being searched?

[DigitalChaos]

There's little background info.
Did they receive a tip for that particular house. Was this protocol for every houses being searched?
It definitely wasn't protocol for EVERY house, based on what I saw. Not sure how many houses we searched in this manner though. These house-to-house searches were supposed to be consent based. Sure, people were probably shitting themselves while giving consent but.. it's still consent.

I am pretty sure a tip doesn't allow police to pull you out of your house at gunpoint though. Warrant/consent is still needed. There is definitely not enough info to make a sound conclusion but it's the first video that made me question things. I'm surprised there weren't any citizens who objected to a search (how many houses were searched?). I'm curious how the police would have responded to that... I am guessing "exigent circumstances" in those situations.

[elevenism]

What do you mean? I'm not trying to be a douche, just saying that his ability to talk getting fucked up in the process of getting him to stop shooting at people doesn't mean he can't communicate. I didn't mean "getting info out of him" as I'm cool with torture or some shit

Edit: the quotations around talk were meant for if he can't actually speak. Not torture him until he says whatever people want him to.

well...i thought it was pretty damn funny.

[DigitalChaos]

He's awake and answer questions!
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57580655/boston-bombing-suspect-awake-answering-questions/

[Frozen Beach]

^ That article title is incorrect. Whoever chose it is an idiot because in the article, they say he's still recuperating and unable to speak.

[kdrcraig]

Huh? It says he's responding in writing.

[Frozen Beach]

Huh? It says he's responding in writing.
They must have updated it some time after I posted.

[aggroculture]

Amanda Palmer weighs in, self-combusts: http://gawker.com/amanda-palmers-a-poem-for-dzhokhar-is-the-worst-poem-476820444

[kdrcraig]

That "poem" is insanely terrible.

[Dra508]

Amanda Palmer weighs in, self-combusts: http://gawker.com/amanda-palmers-a-poem-for-dzhokhar-is-the-worst-poem-476820444

Yeah, things are getting a bit weird for her. She lives in the Boston area and I'm pretty darn sure, based on her twitter feed that she didn't stay home Friday.


Though, I have to say, the flag waving covers up the more interesting story about general humanity and everyone's reaction to it - more to come I'm sure.

Westboro Church is coming to some funerals. I don't have empathy for them.

[sentient02970]

Amanda Palmer weighs in, self-combusts: http://gawker.com/amanda-palmers-a-poem-for-dzhokhar-is-the-worst-poem-476820444

This makes all of my poetry awesome now.

[mfte]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5F1Y6cGRXEs

[slave2thewage]

Amanda Palmer weighs in, self-combusts: http://gawker.com/amanda-palmers-a-poem-for-dzhokhar-is-the-worst-poem-476820444
I learned long ago not to listen to Amanda Palmer if there isn't a piano in front of her.

[DigitalChaos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5F1Y6cGRXEs
one of he big reasons there were so many people who were incredibly skeptical of the 9/11 attacks. But... once again, WTC bombing would have been negligence instead of an intentional act.

[DigitalChaos]

So the White House is says they are going to try the kid for use of a WMD... Does that mean Iraq actually had WMD's now? Since when is an IED a WMD?

[Deepvoid]

Maybe it was the only way to put him on death row since Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.

[Sutekh]

So the White House is says they are going to try the kid for use of a WMD... Does that mean Iraq actually had WMD's now? Since when is an IED a WMD?

In domestic law pretty much any kind of bomb qualifies as WMD. The term WMD in the sort of context you heard Bush throw it around in is foreign policy ie international.

So for domestic law, a weapon of mass destruction is something that can kill a load of people and damage a load of property, within an international relations context it's something that can seriously damage/destroy cities and/or thousands of people

[Deepvoid]

Both suspects did not have gun licenses (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/boston-bombing-gun_n_3131363.html)

One of those gun show loopholes?

[DF118]

Now there's photographs of their fucking mother all over the press. Fun to be her eh.

[Dra508]

Both suspects did not have gun licenses (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/boston-bombing-gun_n_3131363.html)

One of those gun show loopholes?Maybe but, probably more likely because they lived in what is commonly referred to as the People's Republic of Cambridge. It probably takes an act of gawd to get one there.

Massachusetts licensing is one of the strictest. I'm told that if the town police chief things you look weird, you can not get a license to carry.

As for Amanda Palmer. Yes, she might be a wee bit over the top, but she means well and is completely a product of her environment. I read today that as you get older (yeah - I'm looking at a lot of you) we actually are more empathetic. That totally doesn't explain the American wing nuts, but I can't admonish Amanda for trying to make a point (as I sort of tried) that all this flag waving isn't the point. Two kids, who were immersed in American, and more narrowly, New England society, decided to slip off thinking that blowing up people was going to prove something. More personally, that what appears to be an older brother taking advantage of a younger brother's hero worship to do what he wanted (assumptions all around -but what my little mind is thinking right now).

[Frozen Beach]

http://www.getonhand.com/blogs/news/7743337-boston-bombing-suspect-shootout-pictures

[Deepvoid]

http://www.getonhand.com/blogs/news/7743337-boston-bombing-suspect-shootout-pictures

Can you imagine if the guy had been sitting in his chair at the time of the shooting.

[kdrcraig]

That person was ballsy as hell to get all those pictures. Most of the comments on there are, not surprisingly, retarded.

[sentient02970]

That person was ballsy as hell to get all those pictures. Most of the comments on there are, not surprisingly, retarded.

"The photographer could have shot them" Wow, how idiotic an idea is that? With that many armed police just down the street you do NOT want to be whipping out any firearm even if you are pointing at the "bad guys". God, I hope there aren't mobs of dumb people thinking this.

Having said that, I agree, just standing in a window during this is a ballsy move.

[Deepvoid]

"The photographer could have shot them" Wow, how idiotic an idea is that? With that many armed police just down the street you do NOT want to be whipping out any firearm even if you are pointing at the "bad guys". God, I hope there aren't mobs of dumb people thinking this.

Having said that, I agree, just standing in a window during this is a ballsy move.

Of course there are mobs of people thinking like that.
Just look at N.Y. State senator Greg Ball who said torture (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/22/ny-state-senator-torture-boston/2104547/) should be used in this case.
Basically said that if the information obtained through torture could save just one human life than do it.

[DigitalChaos]

These guys really don't seem that smart....

The 11 Most Mystifying Things the Tsarnaev Brothers Did
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/eleven-most-mystifying-things-tsarnaev-brothers-did

Kind of crazy how they managed to evade such a huge police force for so long.


Meanwhile, we have Bloomberg wanting to infringe on the constitution to make us "safer." We have already given up portions of freedom in the name of safety in the post 9/11 world. The fucking FBI didn't think these guys were an issue in 2011. The giant police force couldn't handle these very... unskilled individuals. Who the fuck is dumb enough to believe that we are going to be safer?

Bloomberg Says Interpretation of Constitution Will ‘Have to Change’ After Boston Bombing
http://politicker.com/2013/04/bloomberg-says-post-boston-interpretation-of-the-constitution-will-have-to-change/

[DigitalChaos]

Maybe it was the only way to put him on death row since Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty.
Maybe. But why even have laws if you are going to circumvent them at your discretion like this? Either blowing up a group of people gets you the death penalty in MA or it doesn't.


In domestic law pretty much any kind of bomb qualifies as WMD. The term WMD in the sort of context you heard Bush throw it around in is foreign policy ie international.

So for domestic law, a weapon of mass destruction is something that can kill a load of people and damage a load of property, within an international relations context it's something that can seriously damage/destroy cities and/or thousands of people
Sure seems like we need a terminology change or unification.

[Space Suicide]

Not saying I believe this or disbelieve this but I found it interesting enough to pass along as it is making its rounds. (http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU) (NSFW Gore)

[kdrcraig]

I'll admit that's some weird shit, but those are always worded like its obviously right and you're an idiot if you don't believe it. It's all just a bunch of vague shit thrown together. And doesn't explain why the brothers had bombs during the shoot out anyway. I don't know, conspiracy theories have never held much weight with me. Our government is shady, but I don't think as shady as these loons believe. Bomb the Boston marathon to take away our guns?

[DigitalChaos]

Not saying I believe this or disbelieve this but I found it interesting enough to pass along as it is making its rounds. (http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU)
Some of this will be proven or disproven with time (like that email supposedly written a week ago predicting all this). If they start going after reloading powder... shit is going to get crazy.

I still fall back on the only possible conspiracy being negligence. You can't have that many people in some orchestrated event without someone credible coming forward. Look at all the little shit the government can't keep under wraps to begin with.

Black/Beige uniform of the baddies - uh... so they are smart enough to pull off an orchestrated conspiracy but dumb enough to wear uniforms that make it easy to identify their association? uh...

metrick fuckton of armed police to find one kid - I think we just have hollywood expectations of what police can do. The reality is that even a force that big failed to find a single 19yo kid who seems to have been running without a plan. In my opinion, that's just one more reason to laugh when people tell you that the omnipresent police will protect you and you don't need weapons to protect yourself. It's excessive expectations and/or incompetence... not conspiracy.

[DigitalChaos]

I'll listen to everyone. I'm not going immediately reject an idea but I will demand solid proof. go go skepticism! I did the same with the 9/11 stuff. After seeing that unfold it is pretty obvious that these situations are chaotic. People are chaotic. Reality is chaotic. Hyperanalysing a set of data will create tons of spurious patterns. Just look at the false identification problem that came from reddit when this was unfolding. Some of the patterns will be easily justified when you consider outside datasets. Every so often you just might find a needle in the haystack though.

[kdrcraig]

And isn't the false identification stuff from reddit the reason the FBI released the photos when they did? Earlier than they wanted to?

[jessamineny]

The photos of "Suspect 1" being apprehended in that conspiracy theory photo montage are the "naked guy" who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, didn't cooperate with authorities fast enough, and was taken down and stripped (to make sure he didn't have explosives), because the police weren't sure he was an "innocent."

And if I remember correctly, the two "alternate suspects" were actually undercover officers. They were photographed right after the bombings conferring with other authorities.

o_0

(And that link should probably have a GORE tag.)

[Frozen Beach]

1. If either of those craft guys put their backpacks down with a bomb in it, then why the hell are they not missing their packs AFTER the bomb goes off?
2. The suspect on the ground wasn't Tamerlan Tsarnaev. He was some random guy they came across who looked suspicious, and they made him strip in case he had a bomb strapped to his chest like Tamerlan, who they found before that incident even took place....
3. There is only ONE brother in the photo where Dzhokhar is turning the corner. The other guy that's supposedly Tamerlan is actually some random Asian guy that has nothing to do with the bombing.

[Deepvoid]

Why was the dead body photo mirrored except to achieve deception or incite misrepresentation of something.

[Sutekh]

Sure seems like we need a terrminology change or unification.

Why? Are you getting confused, lol.

Definitely not unification, the separate usage has a purpose

[DigitalChaos]

Check out http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy for some of the newest and more convincing theories. Most of what was posted in that image gallery are the "older" ones.
Supposedly... kid's backpack was seeing at his apartment during the search. His Uncle worked with the CIA. etc

again, just stating what is there. not agreeing with it!

[DigitalChaos]

hah, holy shit

Tamerlan Tsarnaev was an Alex Jones fan
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/23/tamerlan_tsarnaev_was_an_alex_jones_fan/

[Jinsai]

hah, holy shit

Tamerlan Tsarnaev was an Alex Jones fan
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/23/tamerlan_tsarnaev_was_an_alex_jones_fan/

Yeah, and the frustrating and predictable part where they hit the nail on the head: "There’s no doubt that Jones will take this report as confirmation of everything he’s been preaching. The report, he will claim, was planted in the AP — the government controls the media, after all — and is a naked attempt to discredit him and definitive proof that the globalist cabal views him as a serious threat"

This is the most baffling part of these conspiracy theories. Everything's a fucking conspiracy. Every news story. If it's a big enough deal for the Westboro Baptist Church to show up and protest about how gays are invoking god's unrelated wrath, it's inevitable that Icke and Jones will formulate an outlandish conspiracy about it... when the obvious truth is that if the government was capable of all these horrific acts, and they viewed Alex Jones as a legitimate threat, why wouldn't they just take him out?

The fact that Alex Jones and pals are relatively unconcerned about this should alert everyone to the fact that they're either completely insane or that they totally don't believe the stuff they're saying... and if the latter is the case, they're as reprehensible as the Westboro Baptist Church assholes.

[Deepvoid]

Yeah, and the frustrating and predictable part where they hit the nail on the head: "There’s no doubt that Jones will take this report as confirmation of everything he’s been preaching. The report, he will claim, was planted in the AP — the government controls the media, after all — and is a naked attempt to discredit him and definitive proof that the globalist cabal views him as a serious threat"

This is the most baffling part of these conspiracy theories. Everything's a fucking conspiracy. Every news story. If it's a big enough deal for the Westboro Baptist Church to show up and protest about how gays are invoking god's unrelated wrath, it's inevitable that Icke and Jones will formulate an outlandish conspiracy about it... when the obvious truth is that if the government was capable of all these horrific acts, and they viewed Alex Jones as a legitimate threat, why wouldn't they just take him out?

The fact that Alex Jones and pals are relatively unconcerned about this should alert everyone to the fact that they're either completely insane or that they totally don't believe the stuff they're saying... and if the latter is the case, they're as reprehensible as the Westboro Baptist Church assholes.

Alex Jones' reaction (http://bzfd.it/10xyTAb)

[DigitalChaos]

I'm not even sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he believes every bit of it. I don't think he should be anyway responsible for the bombing though. Jones doesn't promote that kind of shit from what I've seen.

I have an acquaintance who Alex Jones dedicated a bunch of airtime toward attacking him. He was frequently playing the skeptic in "skeptic vs conspiracy theorist" debates. One day he publicly mentioned that the conspiracy theorists were hurting the libertarian movement (cause they fucking ARE) and Jones fucking imploded. It was the most juvenile ego stroking rant I've seen from Jones. The guy has issues.

[DigitalChaos]

And really, he is in the same business as Fox News. He markets fear.

[Jinsai]

I'm not even sure. I wouldn't be surprised if he believes every bit of it. I don't think he should be anyway responsible for the bombing though. Jones doesn't promote that kind of shit from what I've seen.

I think he's a liar, but that doesn't mean he's intentionally inciting this sort of thing, any more than the Westboro Baptists are killing soldiers. He's an ambulance chaser with an agenda. Although, the thing that Alex Jones does promote is a complete divorcement from reality.


I have an acquaintance who Alex Jones dedicated a bunch of airtime toward attacking him. He was frequently playing the skeptic in "skeptic vs conspiracy theorist" debates. One day he publicly mentioned that the conspiracy theorists were hurting the libertarian movement (cause they fucking ARE)

I'm so glad we're talking about libertarians again. This is terribly unexpected.

The whole libertarian movement is flypaper for extremism in order to generate whatever support it desperately can. It doesn't discriminate in a reasonable way. It's propped up Ron Paul as its hero. Deal with it when lunatics like this jump on your coattails.

[DigitalChaos]

I think he's a liar, but that doesn't mean he's intentionally inciting this sort of thing, any more than the Westboro Baptists are killing soldiers. He's an ambulance chaser with an agenda. Although, the thing that Alex Jones does promote is a complete divorcement from reality.



I'm so glad we're talking about libertarians again. This is terribly unexpected.

The whole libertarian movement is flypaper for extremism in order to generate whatever support it desperately can. It doesn't discriminate in a reasonable way. It's propped up Ron Paul as its hero. Deal with it when lunatics like this jump on your coattails.
Yes, that's the common way to downplay it. It doesn't really match the reality of the GOP stumbling over themselves to claim a "libertarian" label or the fact that they've dropped all of their conflicting social views from the platform. We've been doing lots of dismantling and infiltrating of the GOP over the years. Getting a fraction of a percent of voters isn't really the top of the list. In fact, most of us openly reject people like Alex jones, Glenn Beck, etc.

Anyway, I know you really like to express your opinions on libertarians but the commentary was about Alex Jones.

[DigitalChaos]

This is really awesome to see. For the first time since 9/11 there are more people UNWILLING to sacrifice personal freedom for safety than those who are willing. So. Fucking. Awesome.


Polls Show Growing Resolve to Live With Terror Threat
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/polls-show-growing-resolve-to-live-with-terror-threat/

[Magtig]

I know you really like to express your opinions on libertarians but the commentary was about Alex Jones.
No, most of us really don't like to express our opinions on libertarianism. You brought up a non-sequitur of a story vaguely connected to Alex Jones, but mostly about libertarianism. Before you came along there was a guy here named "technician" who was a lot like you with more self awareness. He pretty much drove most people nuts with his libertarian idealism, and now you're doing the same thing but not as well. Shit. I just realized that you're actually making me miss that guy.

Dang.

[allegro]

He makes me really miss Tech, too. I've been THINKING that for months. We gotta track him down.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070219072214/http://www.echoingthesound.org/phpbbx/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1764&sid=8455250d2893bd1df653fe444c95d17a

[DigitalChaos]

The fact that "libertarian" is basically an irresistible trigger word for some of you is very telling... but you should really try to stay somewhat on topic here.



We now have a GOP representative jumping into the conspiracy boat...

Stella Tremblay Says U.S. Government Planned Boston Bombing
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/stella-tremblay-boston-bombing_n_3140461.html

[DigitalChaos]

And here is a hilarious one that reminds people of a recent shameful political history

Sarah Palin Calls for Invasion of Czech Republic
http://dailycurrant.com/2013/04/22/sarah-palin-calls-invasion-czech-republic/

[Magtig]

The fact that "libertarian" is basically an irresistible trigger word for some of you is very telling... but you should really try to stay somewhat on topic here.
He says with no hint of irony.

[Jinsai]

The fact that "libertarian" is basically an irresistible trigger word for some of you is very telling


I know! The potential reality of your philosophy is so scary to my fragile world view.

EDIT: Maybe we really do need a dedicated Libertarian thread.

[kdrcraig]

And here is a hilarious one that reminds people of a recent shameful political history

Sarah Palin Calls for Invasion of Czech Republic
http://dailycurrant.com/2013/04/22/sarah-palin-calls-invasion-czech-republic/

Is that for real? I know she's a moron but that is almost Onion worthy

[Fixer808]

Is that for real? I know she's a moron but that is almost Onion worthy
Nope. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Currant) You can breath at least a little easier.

[kdrcraig]

Cool. Never heard of that Onion competitor, good to know. Her bad mouthing Fox News seemed pretty unlikely

[elevenism]

i AM scared that this may have been a "false flag" attack.
I don't buy every little conspiracy theory, but GWB worked for my grandfather here in stratford tx and died mysteriously in an "accident", shortly thereafter...and was pretty much ERASED from history, even though he built one of the first and most successful high capacity cattle feed yards ever.
Local legend says that he was killed by the mafia, but after his death, presidency of his company went to a guy named Bob Gow. Gow has been implicated in everything from the kennedy assassination to fucking 9/11. And he was a member of Skull and Bones, along with W. So i don't think it was the mafia.

I got facepalmed a couple of times for expressing my fear that this may have been a false flag attack earlier in the thread.
Hence, i am writing this to let you guys know that if i come off like a conspiracy nut, it's just because i have a good, healthy fear of it cause it hit so close to home.

[Leviathant]

i AM scared that this may have been a "false flag" attack.

To what end? Is the government going to use this event to take away my right to use homemade bombs?

[elevenism]

Leviathant, i don't really want to say because i don't want to be digitally crucified on ETS, as i have been in the past. BUT, since it's YOU asking, who has been so involved in running this site...

I am PRO gun control. Well, background checks anyway. It's not that, and i'm not one of THOSE guys. Deep down, however, i have long feared a SERIES of false flag attacks, to justify, at worst, martial law.
I don't buy the official 9/11 story for DAMN sure.
And i'm not saying i'm CONVINCED that this attack was "false flag," i just tend to question all of these things.
I fear a Year Zero world.

EDIT: Furthermore, the government wants us scared. We are easier to control that way. And finally, i think that the government might use something like this to draw attention away from something ELSE they are doing, something unpopular at best and sinister at worst. On top of that, i've just had a funny feeling about all this from the get go. i am NOT a conspiracy nut, but i am vigilant and EXTREMELY distrustful of the government. As a yellow dog left wing liberal dem, i thought Obama was our savior. I read his books. Sadly, he has disappointed me and further reinforced my belief that we live in a plutocracy, not a democracy.

[Leviathant]

I appreciate that you've pushed past your fear of getting attacked for what you believe - I don't ask to ridicule you, but to understand where you're coming from.

Frankly, I think that your fears are misplaced. I think that if anyone wants to go down the 'false flag' route, you'd have a slightly (slightly) stronger case casting your eye toward Russia. That morning, when I read that the suspects were Chechen, I thought, why would Chechens attack the US? They've been dealing with centuries of Russian aggression, what good could possibly arise out of Chechens attack Americans? It's not as though we have a dog in that fight at all.

While to my knowledge the US hasn't interfered in how Russia deals with its neighbors, the general feeling towards how the former USSR deals with terrorists seems to be uncomfortable disdain. Man, for all those people who whinge about how awful the US government is, read up on modern Russian history. But now that Chechen Islamists have attacked civilians in the US, that word "Chechen" is now solidified in US public opinion with "terrorist" and actions taken by Russia towards Chechens will now always be seen with that footnote by Americans.

I haven't read the precise citation of where it's said that the brothers' uncle worked with the CIA, but if that were the case, his resounding fury at the situation would come from a bigger understanding of the world stage and how this plays into things. He's absolutely right about how horrible it is that this action ties in American minds the word "Chechen" to the word "bomber." Read up on the history of ethnic Chechens, if you haven't spent time doing that already.

I find it patently absurd that the US Government would have anything to do with assisting or promoting the actions of the bombers. However, despite what I've just said, I don't really know if the subtle nuances that arise out of these actions would be worthy enough of a coordinated Russian operation.

As far as justifying martial law goes - do you think this was even an effective use of martial law? That's essentially what you saw go into action in Watertown. A city told to stay in their houses, a town with more police that population, militarized, going house to house, searching for a suspect who broke the law. And it didn't even result in locating the suspect. Great case for martial law, right? False flag failure.

I also somewhat surprisingly find all the hubbub about mirandizing the suspect to be completely irrelevant in this case, specifically because there is so much evidence that's been collected prior to capturing the suspect. Anything he says before mirandization can happily be thrown out of court as inadmissible evidence, and the case is so strong against him that it doesn't matter. They're not asking him questions to be used when charging him with crimes. His rights would be violated if he said stuff after being arrested but before being mirandized and they used that as evidence against him. If that happens, I take it all back, but given the circumstance, I actually strangely understand why they didn't give him the whole "You have the right to remain silent" thing.

Maybe I'm wrong about that. It's weird, but I feel like it makes sense. Maybe a problem arises in charging his conspirators, if they're outed as a result of what he says in between being arrested and being made aware of his rights.

I suspect that no matter how liberal you may be, once you get into the office of President, you have to work within the framework of the state of the office as it exists today. For reasons I cannot fully comprehend, our country is leaning rightward, and the best you can do is push against that, but not so hard that you break. I don't know that you'll see another president as liberally-minded as Obama get elected in the next few decades... even the Clintons are conservative by worldly measures, and are/would be even moreso within the office of POTUS. If Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan were in office, I wouldn't be surprised if we'd be at war with North Korea right now.

[Dra508]

I was mildly amused while channel surfing on XM when I heard some talk radio guy go off on a conspiracy theorist who called into his show. His theory, and he proved it with the caller, was that usually a conspiracy theorist (this, 9-11, whatever) had issues with their Dad. Food for thought.

Anyway, personally back in New England after been gone for all the hub bub. Going out to take the collective temperature....

[elevenism]

I think you give the american mind too much credit. Most americans don't know the word Chechen.
The word bomber means A-rab. Not Arab mind you, but A-rab. (Forget the fact that the middle east is composed of Arabs, Berbers, Persians, as well as Christians, Muslims and Jews.)
I'm willing to bet that if Americans were polled right now, the overwhelming majority would tell you that the Boston bombers were Arabs...just like they thought Iraq attacked us on 9/11.

[DigitalChaos]

While to my knowledge the US hasn't interfered in how Russia deals with its neighbors, the general feeling towards how the former USSR deals with terrorists seems to be uncomfortable disdain. Man, for all those people who whinge about how awful the US government is, read up on modern Russian history. But now that Chechen Islamists have attacked civilians in the US, that word "Chechen" is now solidified in US public opinion with "terrorist" and actions taken by Russia towards Chechens will now always be seen with that footnote by Americans.

You realize that the USA aided Chechnya during the 80's, right? It's the same stuff as what we did with al-Qaeda.

[elevenism]

I was mildly amused while channel surfing on XM when I heard some talk radio guy go off on a conspiracy theorist who called into his show. His theory, and he proved it with the caller, was that usually a conspiracy theorist (this, 9-11, whatever) had issues with their Dad. Food for thought.

Anyway, personally back in New England after been gone for all the hub bub. Going out to take the collective temperature....

Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

This is all i'm going to say on this subject, except for, again, i'm not SURE about the Boston thing. I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.

[DigitalChaos]

I know the conspiracy nuts have been all over this one for a week plus, but it's the first I've seen a legitimate source:
http://www.local15tv.com/mostpopular/story/UM-Coach-Bomb-Sniffing-Dogs-Spotters-on-Roofs/BrirjAzFPUKKN8z6eSDJEA.cspx

1 - We had a big presence of law enforcement actively looking for bombs. They failed to stop this. Another instance of safety fail and making it hard to convince people to give up more rights.
2 - Who the fuck runs drills on the day of a major event. Were they running some sort of entrapment sting that resulted in them losing control of the bomb?

[skip niklas]

3. What happened to the other devices found? The Boston Globe tweeted about an impending controlled demolition on Boylston st, across from the library, minutes after the initial blasts. Some sources say as many as two to three other bombs were found and disposed of, so why have those reports been erased from the discourse of the events and who placed those devices?

[Leviathant]

3. What happened to the other devices found? The Boston Globe tweeted about an impending controlled demolition on Boylston st, across from the library, minutes after the initial blasts. Some sources say as many as two to three other bombs were found and disposed of, so why have those reports been erased from the discourse of the events and who placed those devices?

They haven't been erased from the discourse of the events, you just haven't been paying close enough attention. Drinking from the firehose, I saw the reports go by that the devices were not actually bombs. They were suspicious objects and collected as such. I think they detonated one such suspicious object, but it turned out that the object itself contained no explosives.

Re: Chechnya, the 80s, USA - the comparison to al-Qaeda is premature. I understand the comparison with respect to a cold-war proxy battle between the US and Russia, but I think that's as far as that goes. The Chechen beef with Russia is almost as old as the United States of America.



I'd like to state for the record that if you want to discuss theoretical false flag exercises or secret government conspiracies, I encourage you to begin a "Conspiracy Theories" thread, and discuss them there to your heart's content. I don't want underinformed speculation (such as "those reports been erased from the discourse of the events") polluting this thread.

[Magtig]

Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?
Loose Change is widely discredited. In fact, if I recall there's an entire film devoted to dismantling it point by point. I think it was called, 'Loose Change Sucks' or something like that.

At any rate, people spend so much time questioning authorities that they don't bother to question their own opinions and speculations. If the 90s was all about think for yourself, question authority, can we make now be all about, 'Think. Question yourself.'

[playwithfire]

And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

I don't think you've met many New Yorkers.

[Sutekh]

I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.

If you "smelled a rat" from the "get go", that means you decided something was wrong even before you had an adequate basis on which to do so... you obviously have made your mind up to a certain extent



2 - Who the fuck runs drills on the day of a major event. Were they running some sort of entrapment sting that resulted in them losing control of the bomb?

Mate seriously, close to a major event is exactly when you hold a drill - the further away from the event the drill is held, the less useful it is.


You realize that the USA aided Chechnya during the 80's, right? It's the same stuff as what we did with al-Qaeda.

"Al-Qaeda" and the Afghan Mujahideen assembled to fight the Soviets are not the same thing, sorry! This is something I hear again and again, and it's just not true. Some of the key personnel from that time period went on to work within the loose affiliation often described as Al-Qaeda, but it's not the same thing - it's like conflating the Baader Meinhof with the Soviet Union

[DigitalChaos]

Mate seriously, close to a major event is exactly when you hold a drill - the further away from the event the drill is held, the less useful it is.
close to = the day before
close to != ontop of :P


I'm curious what the takeaways from the drill were. Think it was anywhere near "complete failure"?

[Sutekh]

Like I said, It's best for a drill to be as close to the event as is possible (in case conditions change, personnel become unavailable or your drills have been observed), so it's really not remarkable at all.

As for failures - to be honest they have my sympathy - how do you strategise against something like this? From a terrorist's point of view, If your plan is simple, you keep a low profile and have few people to betray you, you'll probably succeed.

The real strategy involves foreign policy planners deeming blowback unacceptable! But good luck with that

[DigitalChaos]

That's why there is nothing we can really do about terrorism right now. Anything more is purely security theatre. Hell, a bunch of what we already have is security theatre.

[Sutekh]

Effective strategy is going to differ from country to country, but in terms of the typical threat etc then I agree.

The trouble is policymakers are afraid of compromise somehow validating terrorist organisations by giving them what they want

[DF118]

Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

This is all i'm going to say on this subject, except for, again, i'm not SURE about the Boston thing. I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.

I was involved in a conspiracy at work today. That's just the way the world turns- people are political, manipulative, and goal oriented. That doesn't mean that just because something scary happens, it's anything other than what it is.


smelled a rat

You're not basing this on fact then, you're basing it on your expectations based on your own experiences and beliefs- that's the number one thing you shouldn't do.

I always liked Alan Moore's thoughts on this:


Yes, there is a conspiracy, indeed there are a great number of conspiracies, all tripping each other up… the main thing that I learned about conspiracy theories is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy, or the grey aliens, or the twelve-foot reptiliods from another dimension that are in control, the truth is far more frightening; no-one is in control, the world is rudderless.

[Dra508]

I think you give the american mind too much credit. Most americans don't know the word Chechen.
The word bomber means A-rab. Not Arab mind you, but A-rab. (Forget the fact that the middle east is composed of Arabs, Berbers, Persians, as well as Christians, Muslims and Jews.)
I'm willing to bet that if Americans were polled right now, the overwhelming majority would tell you that the Boston bombers were Arabs...just like they thought Iraq attacked us on 9/11.

Nah, I wouldn't go THAT far. I did talk to a friend in Colorado back last Friday. I did have to explain Chechnya to her. She says "oh my, you know a lot." We'll, if you read paper or a book instead of turning your mind to mush with The Bachelor and American Idol......


Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

This is all i'm going to say on this subject, except for, again, i'm not SURE about the Boston thing. I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.


Dude, can I test the theory. Tell us about your dad.

I'm a native New Yorker transplanted to New England. I call utter bullshit to your 50% and raise you, ah nevermind.



I'd like to state for the record that if you want to discuss theoretical false flag exercises or secret government conspiracies, I encourage you to begin a "Conspiracy Theories" thread, and discuss them there to your heart's content. I don't want underinformed speculation (such as "those reports been erased from the discourse of the events") polluting this thread.and this is why you dah boss. I second this emotion.

[elevenism]

This is all i'm going to say on this subject.
so...how bout them cowboys?

[elevenism]

Zogby InternationalThe polls that have received the most widespread media attention are those conducted by Zogby International.
The first one was conducted in late August 2004 on 808 randomly selected residents of New York State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State). It found that 49 percent ofNew York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City) residents believe individuals within the U.S. government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act."

I'm just backing my shit up. No more conspiracy talk from me, per Leviathant.

[Leviathant]

The polls that have received the most widespread media attention are those conducted by Zogby International.
The first one was conducted in late August 2004 on 808 randomly selected residents of New York State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State). It found that 49 percent ofNew York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City) residents believe individuals within the U.S. government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act."

I would be interested to see a link to the polls in question. Out of 808 residents of New York state, they were able to extrapolate that 49 percent of New York city residents believed the US Government new in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11 2001 and that they consciously failed to act? Never mind the extrapolation, I think if anything that's indicative that folks in NYC were paying attention to the 9/11 Commission, which in July 22, 2004 (about a month prior to this survey), unveiled a PDB entitled Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Ladin_Determined_To_Strike_in_US). So yes, I can see how people might think the government knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001 and that they consciously failed to act.

That has little bearing on any wider conspiracy. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

[Deepvoid]

Cenk Uygur on Alex Jones bombing conspiracy theory. Oh and there's a Free Jahar movement? Jesus ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQTzsSEDI8o

[Lutz]

There really is no conspiracy here.

Considering the huge public manhunt which graphically illustrated the over public surveillance and police/military force. That you either don't have or are cutting back on the cornerstones of democracy (that is social security, healthcare, education). That your government has moved into imposing austerity. The fact that the president has the right to detain individuals without charges and execute individuals without trial or conviction.

The US is already in the worse case scenario for any conspiracy theory you could offer up.

[elevenism]

yeah, i'm bowing out of this one. i come here when there are rumblings from mr trent reznor, to get the best info, rare recordings and such i have been for years (i used to be eleven11) NOT to argue about shit.

i want you guys to know i'm NOT a douchebag conspiracy nut...i JUST....DONT....KNOW.

So what do you guys think about the news that the suspects were headed to NY?

[Sutekh]

The amount of impartial social media coverage of all this kills pretty much any conspiracy theory dead.

But then, 9/11 is the single most documented event in the history of humankind and the universe, and yet you have people who say there were no planes.

[Fixer808]

9/11 is the single most documented event in the history of humankind and the universe, and yet you have people who say there were no planes.
Jesus, do some people actually think that? That's like saying that Kennedy's head "popped like a balloon because of MKULTRA, brah!"

[allegro]

Many people think the Holocaust didn't really happen. There are a lot of stupid people.

[october_midnight]

It would appear that today's idiotic youth internet culture has reached its zenith. (http://gawker.com/freejahar-when-conspiracy-theorists-and-one-direction-478152664)

[Jinsai]

It would appear that today's idiotic youth internet culture has reached its zenith. (http://gawker.com/freejahar-when-conspiracy-theorists-and-one-direction-478152664)

well that's the stupidest, most obnoxious, and frustrating/confounding thing I've seen all day, and this comes on the heels of discovering that somebody made a video game mockery of the bombing called Boston Marathon 2013: Terror on the Streets. I would link to it, but I don't want to contribute to sending any traffic their way.

[DigitalChaos]

well that's the stupidest, most obnoxious, and frustrating/confounding thing I've seen all day, and this comes on the heels of discovering that somebody made a video game mockery of the bombing called Boston Marathon 2013: Terror on the Streets. I would link to it, but I don't want to contribute to sending any traffic their way.

author advertising his stuff on SA: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3545945

download location that is getting hammered: http://lolokaust.com/


edit: almost forgot the trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgZYZQGYghk

[october_midnight]

I would link to it, but I don't want to contribute to sending any traffic their way.

Well that at least makes two of us...

[elevenism]

It would appear that today's idiotic youth internet culture has reached its zenith. (http://gawker.com/freejahar-when-conspiracy-theorists-and-one-direction-478152664)

Ok...that, and the video game bullshit genuinely terrifies me about today's youth in general. And i guess that makes me officially old. It's just utterly sickening and depraved. I believe that part of the problem is that these kids and young adults are the first generation to have access to ALL the information in the world, WHENEVER they want it, usually in the privacy of their rooms for their entire lives.​

[Elke]

Seriously? "The youth of today?" Aren't we supposed to wait with that kind of alienated bullshit untill we're at least 40? Some people are moronic wastes of space, and my guess is they're born that way. For every OHMYGODILOVEJAHAR girl making sparkly banners about her favourite possible terrorist, there's a 40-year old woman writing love letters to a serial killer and a 75 year old fucker collecting Hitler memorabilia.
The only thing that's changed, is that we have a platform to scream our outrage from. And why we're outraged at all, is a mystery to me. We make a far more offensive joke every time we buy a new cell phone because it has spliffy new functions, or throw away meat that made it possible for an African family to live a little shorter. Save your outrage for the Russian government who refuses - still - to acknowledge the occupation of the Golan in Syria out of fear its own Chechen situation should suddenly garner international attention. You know, a worthwhile cause, something truly horrible and devastating.

[/old man rant]

[Space Suicide]

More on The #FreeJahar (http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/boston-bombing-suspect-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-s-disturbing-female-fan-club-191627312.html) Shit

Yeah? How about no. Stupidity in its finest.

[elevenism]

Seriously? "The youth of today?" Aren't we supposed to wait with that kind of alienated bullshit untill we're at least 40? Some people are moronic wastes of space, and my guess is they're born that way. For every OHMYGODILOVEJAHAR girl making sparkly banners about her favourite possible terrorist, there's a 40-year old woman writing love letters to a serial killer and a 75 year old fucker collecting Hitler memorabilia.
The only thing that's changed, is that we have a platform to scream our outrage from. And why we're outraged at all, is a mystery to me. We make a far more offensive joke every time we buy a new cell phone because it has spliffy new functions, or throw away meat that made it possible for an African family to live a little shorter. Save your outrage for the Russian government who refuses - still - to acknowledge the occupation of the Golan in Syria out of fear its own Chechen situation should suddenly garner international attention. You know, a worthwhile cause, something truly horrible and devastating.

[/old man rant]

you're right, you're right...ive just been feeling so fucking old lately!

[Jinsai]

actually, I'd point out there's a major difference. The people writing love letters to convicted serial killers fall more clearly into that "I'm fucking crazy" category, and the old men collecting nazi memorabilia might not be nazis... and even if they are nazis, that's a different thing.

This "freeJahar lol!" movement is sickening for completely different reasons. These little girls probably aren't insane (yet), and they aren't even real conspiracy theorists. They haven't thought about it enough for that. This is a disturbing side effect of what happens when people grow up living in an anonymous fantasy alternate reality. To these kids, the internet isn't quite real, but it's still a very integral and important part of their existence. Traditionally, these fantasy notions are fulfilled by advertising campaigns and shrewd corporations, selling teen idols and vaguely disguised sex symbols, and that's mostly harmless. The worst thing that happens is they grow up and have that "walk of shame" where they sell their New Kids on the Block/Bieber/Nsync album collections.

The unfiltered "viral" version of this is little girls crushing on cute serial killers, and the scariest part is that the majority of them will never have to consciously face that embarrassment when they grow old enough to realize how fucked up it is.

[DigitalChaos]

No mention of the note that was supposedly found written on the inside of the boat?

The finger is basically pointed at US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. "killing one innocent muslim = an attack on all muslims" or something along those lines. Pretty easy to just flip that wonderful logi in reverse and claim that all Muslims are terrorists but whatever... Once again we suffer from blowback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_(intelligence)) but will we decide to stop world occupation?.... naaaahhhhh! Hell, this part of the story isn't getting anywhere near the kind of attention the rest of the case got.

[Dra508]

Since you're talking to yourself trying to stir debate or I don't know what, read a bit, my treat. Boston Globe online is no longer free. You're welcome.
Metro Note may offer details on bomb motive By Maria Cramer and Peter Schworm | GLOBE Just before his capture last month, Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev scrawled a note inside the boat where he was hiding that seemed to take responsibility for his role in the attack, according to two law enforcement officials with knowledge of the message. After police forced Tsarnaev out of the boat, trailered at a Watertown residence, they found the handwritten message in which he praised Allah and said he would soon be joining his dead brother, Tamerlan, according to one of the officials. “They found a note that took responsibility,” said the official, who did not provide additional details. The message in the boat appears to match statements Tsarnaev made to authorities after his capture, but seems to provide a clearer picture of his motives. Related Brewing company to honor slain MIT officer More bombing coverage The note could bolster prosecutors’ case against Tsarnaev, the official said. Both officials asked for anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case publicly. CBS News first reported the note, citing unnamed sources who said Tsarnaev referred to the Marathon victims as “collateral damage” and likened them to Muslims who were killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. “When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims,” Tsarnaev wrote, the network reported. The piece of the boat’s interior Dzhokhar Tsarnaev wrote on probably will be removed from the hull and presented as evidence if he goes to trial, The New York Times reported Thursday. The message was scrawled with a pen, the newspaper reported. The Tsarnaev brothers allegedly planted the bombs that killed three people and injured more than 260 others at the Boston Marathon finish line on the afternoon of April 15. The brothers also are accused of killing MIT Police Officer Sean Collier. Tsarnaev, 19, faces federal charges that could bring the death penalty. He is being held at Federal Medical Center Devens, a detention facility for male prisoners about 40 miles west of Boston. Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, was killed after a shootout with police in Watertown several days after the bombings. Authorities say he was also run over by his younger brother, who was making a desperate bid to escape police. Dzokhar Tsarnaev was captured later that day near the shootout scene in a boat parked in the backyard of a home. The target of a massive dragnet, he was taken into custody after a tense standoff. Three other men, former classmates of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev at UMass-Dartmouth, have been charged with either trying to cover up his role in the bombing or lying to federal investigators. The bombings shook the nation and raised questions about why the brothers turned to terrorism, whether they had help, and whether law enforcement and security officials could have prevented the attacks. Under questioning from FBI agents, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev allegedly admitted that he and his brother were behind the bombings. He claimed that he and his brother acted alone and that his brother had become a follower of radical Islam in part because of his opposition to US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Globe has reported. Those statements came before investigators informed Tsarnaev of his rights to counsel and to remain silent, which could make them inadmissable in a trial. A man who was allegedly carjacked by the brothers also told authorities that Tamerlan Tsarnaev admitted to the bombings and to killing Collier. Federal investigators have now learned that Tamerlan Tsarnaev had met with a former Chechen resistance figure, Musa Khadjimuradov, in Manchester, N.H., less than a month before the attacks, Voice of America reported. FBI agents have searched his home and have been in frequent contact since first interviewing him April 29, the news agency reported. Khadjimuradov said agents questioned him about Tamerlan Tsarnaev practicing at a Manchester shooting range and buying fireworks in Seabrook, N.H., Voice of America reported. The new details of the investigation and the note — especially the reported reference to the bombing victims as “collateral damage”— prompted strong reactions Thursday. Liz Norden, the mother of one of the bombing victims, said she was upset by the note, calling the reference “disturbing.” Paul Norden, who lost his right leg in the attack, was discharged Thursday from Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital in Charlestown. “Paul’s done remarkably well,” Alexis Iaccarino, a resident physiatrist, said at a brief news conference. “He’s shown great resilience,” she said. Liz Norden said it was a great day “because we get Paul home.” She has been concentrating on her son’s recovery, she added, and had not given the bombing suspects much thought. She said she was a “little nervous” about her son leaving the hospital, but she thought he would be fine. Her other son, J.P. Norden, also lost a leg in the bombing and is being treated at Spaulding. He is expected to be discharged May 24. In the city where Tsarnaev was captured, meanwhile, residents were angered by the message. “I kind of figured that was how they were feeling, but . . . the people are collateral damage?” said Marlene Mangabat, 31. “I knew it was some type of hate.” Mangabat said her home was hit by bullets as some officers opened fire at the boat. She recalled huddling with her family, including her niece and infant nephew, on the kitchen floor and then in the basement, before being evacuated. The idea that as she took cover Tsarnaev was claiming responsibility for the bombing was unsettling, she said. “While I’m looking out there, he was in there, writing this message,” she said.
Tsarnaev’s defense targets first comments to police Photos allowed that could show how badly hurt he was In the first indication of a tactic that lawyers may use to defend Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, his legal team won permission Friday to have the 19-year-old periodically photographed in prison to document his recovery, in an effort to challenge whether his initial statements to investigators were made voluntarily. Defense lawyers, in arguments made public in a federal judge’s ruling on Friday, argued that the photographs, contrasted with images of him shortly after his capture, would provide *evidence of his “evolving mental and physical state” since that time, and call into question his ability to make any admissions of guilt to author*ities. By underscoring his weakened condition shortly after his arrest, images of his improved health could also bolster the defense’s arguments against the death penalty, a federal judge ruled. “It is true that photographs may provide probative evidence to support sentence mitigation arguments,” US Magistrate Judge Marianne Bowler wrote in a five-page decision. Tsarnaev and his older brother, Tamerlan, are accused of planting the bombs that killed three people and injured more than 260 at the Marathon finish line on April 15. The brothers are also accused of killing MIT police Officer Sean Collier. Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, was killed after a shootout with *police in Watertown several days after the bombings. Author*ities said he was also run over by his younger brother, who was making a desperate bid to escape police in a sport utility vehicle. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, captured hours later near the shootout scene inside a boat parked in the backyard of a home, faces federal charges that could carry the death penalty. Under questioning by FBI agents, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev *allegedly admitted that he and his brother were behind the bombings. Those statements came before investigators *informed Tsarnaev of his rights to counsel and to remain silent, which could make them inadmissable in a trial. Evidence of his injuries, which included a gunshot wound to the neck, could be used to argue that Tsarnaev was in no condition to make statements to investigators, legal specialists said. “The argument would be that you weren’t in the appropriate mental state, given your physical health, to voluntarily agree to anything,” said Robert L. Sheketoff, a prominent *Boston attorney. Tsarnaev reportedly gave statements to investigators after his arrest and prior to his first appearance before Bowler, when defense lawyers were *finally by his side. Law enforcement officials said Thursday that Tsarnaev scrawled a note on the side of the boat where he was captured that also seemed to take respon*sibility for his role in the attack. Documenting his current health condition establishes a baseline for improvements, Sheketoff said. Sheketoff briefly assisted the defense of serial killer Gary Lee Sampson, the first person to be sentenced to death in a federal court in Massachusetts, a case that is under appeal. While granting the defense’s motion, Bowler ruled that the US Bureau of Prisons must take the photos, rather than *Tsarnaev’s lawyers, to comply with security policy at Federal Medical Center Devens, the detention facility where the bombing suspect is being held. Bowler ruled that defense lawyers can be present when the photos are taken. Initially defense lawyers sought to keep the photographs private under attorney-client privilege, however the judge ruled that prosecutors could have access to the photographs. The full nature of the *defense request, which was filed in secret on May 7, was not known. The judge shared the request with prosecutors so they had the opportunity to raise objections. Specialists said photographic evidence of injuries, particularly serious and lasting ones, could help the defense as it builds a case against the death penalty. “If you have some permanent injury, in a sense you’ve paid a price,” said Sheketoff, who is not involved in Tsarnaev’s defense. “If you sustained that punishment during the capture, you could argue that it’s some retribution that’s already been exacted, especially if it resulted in a permanent *injury.” US Attorney General Eric Holder Jr. would make the final decision on seeking the death penalty, after a recommendation from the US attorney. In Massachusetts, the US attorney has traditionally appointed a committee to hear defense *arguments on why the defendant does not deserve the death penalty. That committee then makes a recommendation to the US attorney. The office of US Attorney Carmen M. Ortiz in Boston said she will seek the advice of *senior counsel in making her recommendation. In other developments Friday, Transit Police Officer Richard Donohue is now being treated at Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital in Boston, 28 days after he was rushed, nearly lifeless, to the hospital. Donohue was shot in Watertown on April 19 as he and other police officers faced off against the Tsarnaev brothers. When Donohue arrived at Mount Auburn Hospital in Cambridge, he had lost a significant amount of blood and barely had a pulse. But hospital medical staff stabilized and *revived him, setting the stage for what his wife, Kim, called “Phase 2’’ of his recovery. “Gooooood morning, Spaulding Rehab! We are now on to ‘Phase 2’ — working out those legs to get him in shape to go home,’’ Kim Donohue posted on Facebook. “Take the most beautiful rehab facility you can imagine and add in a water view of the Boston skyline, and that is Spaulding-Charlestown.’’ In the coming days and weeks, her husband will undergo intensive physical therapy, she said in her post. “It’s time to wake up and smell the PT! We hear the Physical Therapists kick butt first and take names later,’’ Kim Donohue wrote.

[allegro]

yeah well no big news, there. All terrorist acts are due to somebody's beef with somebody. All Muslim terrorist acts, ever, are because they believe that people treat Muslims like shit. Hell, I did an essay about terrorism when I was in college in the 80s, after the Achille Loro terrorist hijacking (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achille_Lauro_hijacking), things haven't changed at all.

[Elke]

yeah well no big news, there. All terrorist acts are due to somebody's beef with somebody. All Muslim terrorist acts, ever, are because they believe that people treat Muslims like shit. Hell, I did an essay about terrorism when I was in college in the 80s, after the Achille Loro terrorist hijacking (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achille_Lauro_hijacking), things haven't changed at all.


But not all acts of terror committed by muslims are muslim terror acts.

[DigitalChaos]

But not all acts of terror committed by muslims are muslim terror acts.
But an attack against one muslim is an attack against all muslims*



*according to the Boston Bomber

[allegro]

But not all acts of terror committed by muslims are muslim terror acts.
well, okay, technically it's one Muslim's terror act, not Islam's terror act

[elevenism]

To these kids, the internet isn't quite real, but it's still a very integral and important part of their existence.- Jinsai

Your whole post was insightful, as usual. I would like to add one thing to the argument...about the internet.
Young teenagers have had access to all the information and misinformation in the world, video included, at the touch of a button, often in the privacy of their BEDROOMS, often since they were old enough to talk, often unmonitored (by their fuckhead parents...MY generation, i am ashamed to say.) This includes Aristotle to Anal Rape Fantasy...Baptism to Bomb Making 101, Confucius to Christian Identity's violent hate movement. I argue that the unsupervised access to power of all of this unfiltered and often hate-filled knowledge and rhetoric, as well as photographs, and later, videos, has deeply, permanently and profoundly changed these new generations from generations past in ways we can't even begin to imagine. I have firsthand knowledge due to bedroom interwebz from ages 17-20 (i was honestly sexually warped by it, but that's for another thread, or never.) :confused:

SECONDLY
And sadly, i fear that in the Great Stupid American Hive-think,
Muslim=Arab=Terrorist. And it's gonna be that way for a long, lone time.
Oh, and i almost forgot..Sikhs and Hindus (explaining the recent Sikh tenoke binbung also qualify as Gee-Hawd A-Rabs.
On that note, i'd like to formally and deeply apologize for George W. Bush and his deadly antics, as well as take this opportunity to SWEAR on the lives of my family that we Texans are NOT all like that!!!!! But PLEASE accept this apology.

Of course, if those Gee-Hawd I-Rackies hadn't flown those planes into those buildings...:p

[Elke]

well, okay, technically it's one Muslim's terror act, not Islam's terror act

No, it's not because a muslim commits an act of terror, that his being a muslim is relevant. That's what I meant.

[allegro]

No, it's not because a muslim commits an act of terror, that his being a muslim is relevant. That's what I meant.
Being Palestinian was primarily relevant re the Achille Lauro.

[Elke]

As a blanket statement, calling something muslim / islamist terrorism because someone is muslim is stupid and wrong. Your own example proves it.

[allegro]

But that wasn't what I said. If the terrorists, themselves, claim their actions are the result of harm against Muslims (like the guy who is the subject of this thread; he wrote his reasons on the boat where he hid out), then they, themselves, are defining it. I didn't say "I'm a Muslim and this is what I do because I'm a Muslim" (because that's stupid). Muslims who commit terrorism and who publicly state that their terrorist acts are the result of their feeling that Muslims are harmed or treated unfairly and their act of terrorism is a form of retribution against people who hurt Muslims ("Muslim terrorist act") isn't a new thing due to U.S. occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan; DigitalChaos made a point that the U.S. chickens have come home to roost (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1573-Boston-Marathon?p=87423#post87423), like the U.S. killing Muslims is a new thing related to our occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq. In response to his comment, specifically, I merely pointed out that Muslims being treated like shit, and Muslims committing acts of terrorism to attempt to show that Muslims are being treated like shit pre-dates U.S. occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, and that terrorist acts were happening in the 80s when I was writing my essay focusing on all types of terrorism (Palestinian, Islamic, I.R.A., whatever) and that terrorists don't commit acts of terror for no reason; they do it to bring attention to their beef.

My essay back in the 80s attempted to focus on their feelings of impotency and that, to whatever terrorists and their reasons, terrorist acts are perhaps the only way they can get any perceived attention or action toward the change they seek. I couldn't finish the essay, however, because I could find no data to support my thesis; the only data I found was "all terrorists are assholes and they do it for no reason." We didn't have the Internet so research was limited to shitty Time magazines and stuff. The Achille Lauro was an example of "terrorism gone bad" since Palestinians shooting a crippled Jew in the head and throwing him and his wheelchair off the side of a cruise ship probably won't get your cause any sympathetic attention and you are unlikely to get any press and video and pictures on the front page since no press was out in the middle of the ocean around a cruise ship and none of us had cell phones with cameras back then. I was writing this essay in 1985 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_1985).

[DigitalChaos]

The fact that both side who want to inflict harm in the "islamic terrorism" topic are convinced that muslims are unified is something people seriously need to think about. That's approximately 100% of the people that matter when trying to deal with the issue. The easiest answer is for muslims to come out with a much stronger media presence and world-wide message of telling the terrorists to fuck off.

[allegro]

The fact that both side who want to inflict harm in the "islamic terrorism" topic are convinced that muslims are unified is something people seriously need to think about. That's approximately 100% of the people that matter when trying to deal with the issue. The easiest answer is for muslims to come out with a much stronger media presence and world-wide message of telling the terrorists to fuck off.
I guess. I've known too many Muslims in my life to ever think that all (or even a fraction of) Muslims are terrorist sympathizers. But the current population of Americans seem to let their prejudices based on fear affect their understanding of what's happening worldwide. They can't even manage to attempt to consider how many innocent Muslims we have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, all considered "collateral damage." Which is, of course, where the Boston Bomber got his wording that he wrote on that boat. Not to say that I understand the "eye for an eye" aspect of terrorism, and how "collateral damage" at the Boston Marathon will open anyone's mind.

I did a group research project (in around 2006) in an advanced English class with two young Muslim women who showed me a LOT about slanted U.S. journalism; in fact, our group presentation (3 of us) focused on comparing U.S. and British "news" coverage of Iraq and Afghanistan to Al Jazeera coverage. We think our presentation really opened up the eyes of our fellow classmates.

[DigitalChaos]

I guess. I've known too many Muslims in my life to ever think that all (or even a fraction of) Muslims are terrorist sympathizers. But the current population of Americans seem to let their prejudices based on fear affect their understanding of what's happening worldwide. They can't even manage to attempt to consider how many innocent Muslims we have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, all considered "collateral damage." Which is, of course, where the Boston Bomber got his wording that he wrote on that boat.

I did a group project in an advanced English class with two young Muslim women who showed me a LOT about slanted U.S. journalism; in fact, our group presentation (3 of us) focused on comparing U.S. and British "news" coverage of Iraq and Afghanistan to Al Jazeera coverage. We think our presentation really opened up the eyes of our fellow classmates.

That's exactly the point though. People who understand this are also the ones who aren't pushing for the wars (or "terrorist attacks" depending on which side of the aggression you are on). If the majority of muslims took a much more public and active stance on crushing the extremist terrorists... it would flip the existing rhetoric on it's head. I'm sure there are other ways to go about it too, like eliminating the chickenhawk idiots from the major US political parties.

[Elke]

The hijacking of the Achille Lauro was politically motivated. The concept of ummah was secondary to the hijackers, which explains why it didn't gather international support from muslims or much follow-up.

edit: I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with most of what you wrote, allegro, I'm just pointing out that it's not because someone uses religious imagery, that religion is the cause or motivator for an action. Hitler considered himself a christian, and Anders Breivik used christian rhetoric. Neither acted out of christian motives, or considered their actions to be motivated by religion. When discussing western bombers, terrorists or dictators, we're usually more correct in delineating the religious components from the actual motivators.

[Pillfred]

That's exactly the point though. People who understand this are also the ones who aren't pushing for the wars (or "terrorist attacks" depending on which side of the aggression you are on). If the majority of muslims to a much more public and active stance on crushing the extremist terrorists... it would flip the existing rhetoric on it's head. I'm sure there are other ways to go about it too, like eliminating the chickenhawk idiots from the major US political parties.

Not meaning to be antagonistic here but the same could be more or less said about a lot of people here in the states. Which in a way i feel could be easier to do since we are not currently living in a war zone. It's a sad state of affairs no matter how one looks at i feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=towkkv2cWZo
If you go to around 13:40 or so dude makes a good point, granted he's talking about Israel and all that, but i think a similar sentiment would apply.

[DigitalChaos]

Not meaning to be antagonistic here but the same could be more or less said about a lot of people here in the states. Which in a way i feel could be easier to do since we are not currently living in a war zone. It's a sad state of affairs no matter how one looks at i feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=towkkv2cWZo
If you go to around 13:40 or so dude makes a good point, granted he's talking about Israel and all that, but i think a similar sentiment would apply.
I actually had US citizens in mind when saying that. The US is leading the way with the war on terror and it is impacting a lot of muslims. If the US muslims had much more media presence denouncing this and separating themselves, it might actually change this perception of muslim unity that terrorists have.
Like I said, there are other ways but this is just something that came to the front after digesting what the Boston bomber allegedly wrote. If I were a muslim I would be so pissed at having those kids associate themselves with me.

[Deepvoid]

Problem is that people are mostly ignorant on the subject.
You got O'Reilly suggesting it's time to do some profiling and people actually agreeing with him. A lot of people.

[allegro]

The hijacking of the Achille Lauro was politically motivated. The concept of ummah was secondary to the hijackers, which explains why it didn't gather international support from muslims or much follow-up.
It didn't get support from anybody because it was really fucking lame, all the way around

[onthewall2983]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1001005_10151521730765779_1875765078_n.jpg

Not quite sure how I feel about this. It's not going to make him cool, but it's definitely showing mixed signals to me as to what RS' intention is.

[orestes]

Can someone logically explain the hullabaloo over the cover? Me thinks there's a fair bit of projection at work here.

[aggroculture]

I saw a young woman with a "Tsarnaev Is Innocent" sign at the Trayvon Martin rally: ugh.

[orestes]

Well, there's no counting for illogic or poor timing.

[onthewall2983]

Can someone logically explain the hullabaloo over the cover? Me thinks there's a fair bit of projection at work here.

Someone else on another forum put it more succinctly than I could, without the need to reach for their pitchforks.


It's an unfortunate moment of dissonance, when Rolling Stone's status as a rock mag clashes with their desire to do serious journalism. If it was a Time or Newsweek header on top, there wouldn't be an issue. Although maybe there should be... but that's a completely different and larger problem.

[orestes]

Ahhh so people have issue with the source of the article rather than the content? I mean, it's not like RS hasn't been producing good pieces of journalism over the years, dare I say better than these presumed "credible" news outlets.

[onthewall2983]

No, it's more to do with the fact that practically every RS cover this year has had an actor or musician on it this year. And that largely those stories are used to sell issues, with their serious journalism often taking a back seat.

This video explains my issues with this whole thing more than I ever could myself.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

[Dra508]

Ahhh so people have issue with the source of the article rather than the content? I mean, it's not like RS hasn't been producing good pieces of journalism over the years, dare I say better than these presumed "credible" news outlets.
My Facebook feed is blowing up on this one. The offense. Photoshopped version of a cover with the dead victims. Making the bomber kid look like a rock star on the cover just pissing them off. The mayor already sent a letter to Jann Wenner. I gotta wonder, did they put Tim McVeigh on the cover? I don't know.

[Ruined]

I believe it's Yahoo News that posted the headline that RS made the bomber look like a "rockstar." Seriously, it's an unprofessional, FB-looking straight-ahead shot of the guy. It's not like he's hunched over a flaming guitar or striking a shirtless "Jesus Christ Pose." In addition, there was no headline exclaiming, "Way to Go!" Talk about reactionary bullshit. I recall numerous publications with photos of bin Laden up until his eventual killing. Further, I remember one magazine with the actual in-school camera still of the Columbine shooters, mid-killing spree. If anything, that was far more disturbing than this random photo. Slow news day...

[onthewall2983]

Not so much "way to go", more "How a popular, promising student was failed by his family and turned to radical Islam". I'm not saying your wrong about other magazine's coverage (the Time Columbine coverage was quite tasteless in comparison).

[orestes]

Yeah, saying that Tsarnaev is being propped up like a "rock star" or any kind of disposable entertainment is just silly and a knee-jerk reaction. But that's just the media being lazy and following the lead of a catchy headline. That's not to say RS didn't know what they were doing when they chose the cover image; they do have units to sell. This isn't a discussion about guilt or innocence- that's for the courts to decide- but I got news for the pearl clutchers: this alarming photo of a young man is the face of a monster. It's become so engrained by the government and media that the true face of evil in this world is a brown person that we fail to see otherwise.

If only people were as worked up over blowback.

[slave2thewage]

Never underestimate the power of the public to be offended by everything under the sun.

[M1ke]

Gotta do something to try and keep print media relevant.

[Baphomette]

Gotta do something to try and keep print media relevant.Print media will ALWAYS be relevant.

[Sutekh]

The cover of RS has a cultural significance, typically you put celebrities on the cover as an act of veneration. RS is not newsweek, bearing in mind the context you have to wonder why they did it? Obviously they don't intend to venerate him, so one has to conclude it's been done for shock value. There is a lot of faux outrage and it is shame people don't get as worked up over more important things, but RS definitely fucked up here, very bad taste.

The other very important thing you have to bear in mind is the nature of terrorism - you don't aim to hit essential infrastructure or exact heavy casualties (necessarily), you make a big gesture and use the media attention as a vector for your politics. By slapping his face on the cover it does to an extent further legitimise terrorism as a tactic. I'm not saying we should ban certain people from the media (like the brits did with the IRA), as far as strategy goes my mind is not made up - but this is an aspect of the reality we have to deal with

personally I think this is it the end for RS, unless they clear the deck

[jessamineny]

Rolling Stone magazine has been publishing for almost 50 years. If this was its death blow, that would be an outrage.


The photo you see on the cover actually has content, and actually reflects the content of the story.

It's a photo of the kid you went to high school with. The kid on the wrestling team. Any kid you could run across in your Facebook feed. People who knew Jahar can't reconcile the person they knew and the things he ended up doing. The unsettling conclusion, according to what Rolling Stone found in their interviews, is that if Jahar could do such monstrous things, who knows how many kids out there -- including kids you know, kids who look just like the kid on the cover of that magazine -- are capable of monstrous things, too.

[Dra508]

State Trooper "Tactical" photographer was so pissed about the RS cover that he released photos of Jahar's capture. I predict he'll get his handslapped and that's about it.
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/07/18/tsarnaev/

http://cdn.bostonmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/113_4470_21.jpg

[Sutekh]

Rolling Stone magazine has been publishing for almost 50 years. If this was its death blow, that would be an outrage.


The photo you see on the cover actually has content, and actually reflects the content of the story.

It's a photo of the kid you went to high school with. The kid on the wrestling team. Any kid you could run across in your Facebook feed. People who knew Jahar can't reconcile the person they knew and the things he ended up doing. The unsettling conclusion, according to what Rolling Stone found in their interviews, is that if Jahar could do such monstrous things, who knows how many kids out there -- including kids you know, kids who look just like the kid on the cover of that magazine -- are capable of monstrous things, too.

could it only function as content as part of the cover?

also who cares if a magazine has been going for 50 years, it's a consumer product and a pretty fluffy one, it's period of relevance long since passed. These things don't deserve that much respect IMO & should pull their weight

I just find it odd... This attack happened so recently, think how the families feel having this face plastered even further across the media. That's fine - but RS folding would be an outrage?

[Jinsai]

Rolling Stone magazine has been publishing for almost 50 years. If this was its death blow, that would be an outrage.


True. The real reason Rolling Stone should have folded long ago was because they're ostensibly a "music" magazine, and yet they've now established a reputation as being outrageously clueless and misinformed when it comes to music, while they operate as a pandering hype machine for whatever plastic music the industry is currently shitting out. Like this fantastic review:

Aphex Twin: Drukqs (one star) "His most irrelevant album to date: a double CD, thirty-track compendium of indecipherable song titles, gratuitously weird sounds and occasional wisps of ersatz classical piano that are aimlessly pretty." (the review has since been removed from Rolling Stone's website, because not only do they hire critics who are assholes who have no idea what they're talking about, they're apparently pussies too... but if I remember, the reviewer went on to describe it as mostly unlistenable noise, and then hypothesized that it was an overlong collection of filler that he released simply because he was running out of room on his hard drive, and maybe he should stop taking "drukqs," har dee har har)

In that same issue (on the same page as the Aphex Twin review I believe) they praised the new Smash Mouth album.

They must not have gotten around to deleting their ridiculous review of Depeche Mode's Violator yet though (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/violator-19900614)

Or their hideously dismissive opinion of Lou Reed's Berlin (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/berlin-19731220)
While we're talking about Lou Reed, I'm still not sure if this review (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/transformer-19730104) is satire.

They originally bashed Abbey Road by the Beatles, calling side two "a disaster." At some point later, they called it the fourteenth best album of all time. And that movie Almost Famous wasn't lying: they really did bash all the early Zeppelin albums... and After the Gold Rush.

So yeah, they've always been a shitty music magazine, run by idiots and assholes, and since that's their central focus I guess, THAT is why they should have gone out of business a long long time ago. Occasionally Matt Taibbi has written an insightful article or two for them, and back in the day they had Hunter S Thompson, but since both he and Lester Bangs are dead now, and Taibbi would be better suited practically anywhere else, they can fuck off, and it only has a little bit to do with this new desperate grab for attention.

I wouldn't cry if Rolling Stone went out of business because of this. I'd throw a party and listen to Drukqs.

EDIT: Gotta love that editor's note though: The cover story we are publishing this week falls within the traditions of journalism and Rolling Stone’s long-standing commitment to serious and thoughtful coverage of the most important political and cultural issues of our day.

oh yeah... totally... like that time Alex Chilton died, and you mentioned it in the tiny print at the bottom of the page, while the cover was dominated by the fucking cast of GLEE.

[Sutekh]

"Regard all art critics as useless and dangerous"

"most rock critics like elvis costello because most rock critics look like elvis costello"

[marodi]

"Now it's all designed to blow our mindsbut our minds won't really be blown
Like the blow that'll getcha
when you get your picture
on the cover of the Rollin' Stone"

The controversy will sure help boost the sells I bet.

[allegro]

Remember, too, that Hunter S. Thompson wrote for Rolling Stone for many years (http://www.rollingstone.com/contributor/hunter-s-thompson).

Since its inception, Rolling Stone has attempted to be a kind of Mother Jones lite but also an "entertainment" magazine.

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlla/files/original/23315843.jpg

http://www.theworldsbestever.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/shepard-fairey-obama-rolling-stone-cover.jpg

[thevoid99]

More than a decade ago when I was writing about music, I wanted to work for Rolling Stone. Seeing what it became in the years since and how bad it gotten while the reviews gotten more ridiculous. I'm glad that I went on my own. I also remember Jim DeRogatis' story about working for the magazine and he said it sucked. The moment that got him thrown out was over a negative review he wrote on the new Hootie & the Blowfish album and they were going to be on the cover. He got fired, they had a new review praising the band and got on the cover. That magazine should've died 15 years ago as the only thing that kept them going was Hunter S. Thompson.

[Sutekh]

RS having pretensions of being a current affairs rag that it occasionally indulges doesn't really elevate it in my eyes. I sort of wish Kerrang had similar delusions, then it would be funny enough to be worth buying

btw HST's basketball column for ESPN.com was great :D

[johnsmith789]

Rolling Stone got the controversy they wanted. They knew that using an absurdly glamourised photo would generate publicity. Yes, I love HST's basketball column for ESPN.com. It was really great.
Race Registration (https://thedriven.net/site.racemanagement_tab)

[GulDukat]

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Gets Death Penalty in Boston Marathon Bombing
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/16/us/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-death-sentence.html?_r=0

I feel very ambivalent about this.

[elevenism]

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Gets Death Penalty in Boston Marathon Bombing


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/16/us/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-death-sentence.html?_r=0

I feel very ambivalent about this.

me too, and for multiple reasons, not the least of which being this one:
didn't the kid WANT to be martyred?
in that message that he wrote on the inside of that boat, he said he was jealous that his brother was killed and he wasn't.

also, killing begets more killing.

[GulDukat]

The appeals are going to go on for years. At least if he got life in prison it would just end and his victims could start to get some sort of closure.

[Jinsai]

I'm not a big fan of the death penalty, but only because we use it in cases where it is not 100% certain that the perp committed the crime, and because even then we have to wait forever and spend a ton of money sustaining their stay until we finally kill them in an expensive way.

Here? I agree, the verdict is justified, now kill him quickly and get this over with.

I don't care whether or not he "wanted to be martyred." IF that was his goal all along, he could have pulled that off without relying upon a string of delusional tweens thinking he's cute (and so therefore innocent) while they harass victims entering the court to testify.

He's only a martyr to a small group of 20 or so fanatical (and horribly misguided) conspiracy theorist young girls about to graduate from their One Direction phase.

[allegro]

This is a Federal case and not many people get executed by the Feds (http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/federal-sentences-death-row/) so this will take a while and he may never be executed.

[theimage13]

This is a Federal case and not many people get executed by the Feds (http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/federal-sentences-death-row/) so this will take a while and he may never be executed.

No, he will be. No amount of appeals in the world will overturn that sentence, although it'll take years (more likely, decades) and tens of millions of dollars of our money to make it happen.

[Dra508]

No, he will be. No amount of appeals in the world will overturn that sentence, although it'll take years (more likely, decades) and tens of millions of dollars of our money to make it happen.

Did you read the article? Only 3 that have been sentenced to death in Federal court, since '88, have actually been put to death. I think McVeigh stopped his appeals so perhaps if he hadn't, that would have gone on and on too.

I watched this trial and the penalty phase relatively closely. I really thought just one person, all you needed, on this jury would have said life not death. Unfortunately, just to get on the jury you had to be death penalty willing. So, basically, the pool of jurors got cut in half from the start.

The argument from the general population in that area, because remember the bombing happened in a city, in a state, that if they had just pressed state charges for murder, mayhem, etc, that kid would have been tried, and sentenced a year ago and we all would have forgotten his name. Really, I think that would have been great. As much as I believe he was a willing participant, if his brother had lived and was sitting to him during this trail, everyone would have been pointing the finger at him and feeling like the little brother was just a dope. This was vengeance.*


*if you haven't noticed, I'm against the death penalty across the board. Questionable convictions and convictions like these where he admitted culpability. As a society, it makes us no better than the bad guys.

[theimage13]

I'm anti across the board as well.

The kid is young. Really young. He's got a few options.

1) Kill himself in prison (not likely)
2) Sentence commuted (even less likely)
3) Still be on death row literally fifty-sixty years from now (less likely still)
4) Executed

I'm not taking past stats about a sentencing to execution ratio to mean anything in this case. There was never going to be any other sentencing outcome, and I think the world knew that from the start. As you said, you had to be willing to sentence someone to death - or at least, be a very good liar about it - to even get onto the jury. And no one went into it thinking he wasn't guilty. So I'd be willing to bet that everyone in that pool went in with their mind already leaning heavily towards the death sentence, and probably only grappled with it briefly when it came time to put pen to paper and say "I am personally responsible for killing this man".

[allegro]

No, he will be. No amount of appeals in the world will overturn that sentence, although it'll take years (more likely, decades) and tens of millions of dollars of our money to make it happen.
Like Dra508 said, read the article. 77 people sentenced to death since the Federal death penalty was reinstated in 1988, but only 3 have been executed. The government doesn't do anything fast, if ever.

The Jury did not likely use their personal feelings, but used the sentencing guidelines (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3592) provided to them (otherwise their decision could be easily overturned). The big kicker here was the footage of the Defendant placing a bomb directly behind some children without a look of care on his face.

[Dra508]

The big kicker here was the footage of the Defendant placing a bomb directly behind some children without a look of care on his face.I don't put much credence in a 19 year old boy's facial expressions. They have their own resting bitch face. Now, if he was smiling and laughing when he put down the bomb, then I'd think we have a person without a soul.

I'd be curious, but way too lazy and busy with life, to see what all those other convictions were overturned for.

[allegro]

I don't put much credence in a 19 year old boy's facial expressions. They have their own resting bitch face. Now, if he was smiling and laughing when he put down the bomb, then I'd think we have a person without a soul.

I'd be curious, but way too lazy and busy with life, to see what all those other convictions were overturned for.

They weren't overturned; the government hasn't gotten around to executing them, yet. It takes a long time for any death row prisoner to be executed.

John Wayne Gacy was sentenced to death in 1980. He was executed in 1994.

Facial expression wasn't the point; it was the fact that he willingly placed bombs near children, and didn't appear to be under the control of his brother. He expressed in notes that while he felt bad that innocent people were injured or killed, it was necessary for Americans to be punished. He will be kept away from the general prison population, so he won't be murdered in prison like Jeffrey Dahmer. The fact that the Defendant is 19 has no weight at all. Really heinous cold calculated crimes have been committed by people much younger than him. Laughing could indicate insanity, which is a whole other defense.

I am also against the death penalty, in all cases. It keeps prisoners from the general population, and it's too good for them in many cases. Life in prison is far worse punishment than death.

[Dra508]

Point taken.

[ickyvicky]

Are you fucking kidding me?

"Boston Marathon bomber appeals his death sentence, claims juror bias"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/12/us/boston-marathon-bomber-appeal/index.html

[theimage13]

Are you fucking kidding me?

"Boston Marathon bomber appeals his death sentence, claims juror bias"

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/12/us/boston-marathon-bomber-appeal/index.html

Disclaimer: I'm both anti-death penalty and very much not a lawyer. But....


Two jurors had shown clear bias, Habib said. The first, Juror 286, discussed the case years before the trial, posting tweets that called Tsarnaev a "piece of garbage" and admitting that she sheltered in her home with her family during the manhunt.

This does sound like a clear bias to me. Law is full of technicalities and loopholes, and your defense attorney's job, like it or not, is to find ANY way possible of keeping their client out of jail (or at least, alive).

Given the way this attack made headlines around the country, I'm not sure a truly unbiased jury was ever going to be possible, but especially in Boston...

I don't have the slightest bit of sympathy for him. I firmly believe that the maximum legal penalty should be levied against him, even if I disagree with what that penalty happens to be. But I also respect that his attorney has a job to do, and (in my amateur understanding) a not entirely invalid position.

[ickyvicky]

I totally understand that point and agree with those facts.

I hope this quickly gets thrown out because this was very clearly a terrorist act, and with all the photos and videos taken when it happened - does it really matter that a juror was biased? The deed was done with the intent to hurt people.

[theimage13]

with all the photos and videos taken when it happened - does it really matter that a juror was biased?

It's not a matter of guilty or not guilty though, which is why the obvious nature of the crime isn't what's on trial here. It's a question of whether a juror was acting vindictively versus impartially when it came to sentencing. And if a juror was shown to be making comments both presumptuous of guilt and derogatory of the suspect before there was even a trial...that doesn't sound like an impartial juror anymore. How would you feel, as a defense attorney, if a juror had said "FRY THE MOTHERFUCKER" in a bunch of FB comments before there was even a trial? And let's assume that you knew this all before the juror was seated. Would you allow that juror to serve? Or would you dismiss them and move on?

Our legal system is far from perfect, but it's built on precedent and following a set of rules. We need to be able to at least request that those rules be applied (i.e., file this kind of appeal) if we want to have any faith that the system will work for us should we ever find ourselves in personal need of it. Sometimes, the consequences of that mean that rulings go very much against what we feel and/or know to be "right". I'm very curious to see how this one goes - I'm not sure on what grounds it could be thrown out quickly, but on the other hand we do seem to love revenge executions in this country, so I'm not struggling to picture the appeal being tossed / denied.