Welcome Oblivion: In the aftermath of Year Zero?

[thepresence0]

I know everyone here probably tries to connect anything Trent does at this point back to Year Zero, however...

From An Omen, the song Speaking in Tongues:

"Speaking in tongues, this has begun, I am the end of it all. We have become zeroes and one, I am the end of it all."

That was my first clue. And then I began listening to the full album.

Perhaps it's just my imagination, but every time I listen to Welcome Oblivion, I get a vibe that its set a hundred years or after Year Zero. There is also no denying that the artwork for Welcome Oblivion feels incredibly related. I was just curious if anyone else had any thoughts about this.

[sheepdean]

Or maybe ...
it's not.

[Leviathant]

It's not. It's not even the same band.

[thepresence0]

So no Stephen King-esque loose sort of continuity is possible? No, they aren't the same band, but these are all NIN collaborators (save MQ). Welcome Oblivion seems awfully drenched in a post-apocalyptic nightmare of sorts. I'm not saying there is an absolute or direct connection. But some of the scenery in the video for The Loop Closes, many of the song lyrics, and general aesthetic approach just seem too similar.

[sheepdean]

As a foursome they've created some music that works together and may not even be a concept album (half the songs are about relationships imo). Why would the three non-NIN members happily let Trent take over and steer the project towards a plotline that he's been working on televising?

And hell, who's to say it's not a sequel to The Book of Eli? Post-apocalyptic wastelands were a big thing in that and Atticus did the music.

[thepresence0]

As a foursome they've created some music that works together and may not even be a concept album (half the songs are about relationships imo). Why would the three non-NIN members happily let Trent take over and steer the project towards a plotline that he's been working on televising?

I don't think it's actually very far fetched. From the outside looking in, it seems HTDA exists as an outlet separate from NIN where Trent and others feel a bit more free to try whatever they want. I think of HTDA as Deep Space Nine to NIN's Next Generation. I'm sure Atticus Ross will contribute to some degree on the next NIN album, Rob Sheridan will be back doing the art direction, and hell, I could even imagine MQ making a guest appearance.

I'm not saying Trent just makes decisions and everyone follows, but more that these are four people who mutually respect and understand each other. And if Trent at some point said "you know, this is almost starting to feel like it's loosely connected to world we set up in Year Zero", I doubt there would be huge objection from anyone. And again, I personally don't even think it's so heavy handed. More akin to the example I gave of Stephen King's books taking place in roughly the same universe, despite many works being very different entities.

I agree that the album seems primarily to be about relationships, but I also think there is still this post-apocalyptic vibe to it. What does love mean at the end of everything? (moving on, death, or Oblivion) And once more, particularly the lyrics of Speaking in Tongues from An Omen are what lead me to think there might be some loose connection. Along with some eerily similar imagery showing up in the video for The Loop Closes.

[gorast]

I think you're just grasping at straws trying to make a connection. If you look hard enough, you can see connections in everything Trent's done since YZ, but that doesn't mean there are actual connections.

I also think it would be more than a little insulting to the rest of the band if Trent was like "Hey guys, let's connect this supposedly-independent-from-NIN project to that ARG Rob and I came up with five years ago that no one is able to let go of even though a direct sequel is in the works as a TV series." It would do even more damage to the idea of HTDA as a separate entity, an idea that I feel like Trent has been trying to impress on us the past few years.

[thepresence0]

I think you're just grasping at straws trying to make a connection. If you look hard enough, you can see connections in everything Trent's done since YZ, but that doesn't mean there are actual connections.

I also think it would be more than a little insulting to the rest of the band if Trent was like "Hey guys, let's connect this supposedly-independent-from-NIN project to that ARG Rob and I came up with five years ago that no one is able to let go of even though a direct sequel is in the works as a TV series." It would do even more damage to the idea of HTDA as a separate entity, an idea that I feel like Trent has been trying to impress on us the past few years.

So, no thoughts on the lyrics to Speaking in Tongues? It's nearly impossible to me that the lyric (whoever wrote it, I'm assuming Trent definitely had input on this one) "We have become zeroes and one, I am the end of it all" was written without someone saying "Hey, we are making this really post-apocalyptic sounding record and these lyrics definitely tread Year Zero territory"

I also don't agree that the notion would necessarily be insulting to the other band members. For all we know, Year Zero was a pet idea incepted by both Rob and Trent.

[ItsJustDave]

You guys are slow. The keys to the puzzle start in halo01.

Also, try synchronizing sigils to their matching halos.

[thepresence0]

fwiw, this is what Rob Sheridan has to say:
[/URL] (https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/308351592749465600)
[url]https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/308351592749465600 (https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/308351592749465600)

[gorast]

So, no thoughts on the lyrics to Speaking in Tongues? It's nearly impossible to me that the lyric (whoever wrote it, I'm assuming Trent definitely had input on this one) "We have become zeroes and one, I am the end of it all" was written without someone saying "Hey, we are making this really post-apocalyptic sounding record and these lyrics definitely tread Year Zero territory"

I also don't agree that the notion would necessarily be insulting to the other band members. For all we know, Year Zero was a pet idea incepted by both Rob and Trent.
Similarly, I don't agree that the band would then jump to "Well, let's bring this album into the fold, then." If we're assuming Mariqueen wrote that particular lyric (and, as the primary lyricist, she probably did), then perhaps Trent might've said "Oh hey, that reminds me of Zero-Sum." Perhaps Q would've then gone "Oh hey yeah, me too." Then they recorded it and continued about their business.

Keeping in mind that, while HTDA's lyrics are not written solely or even more than a little bit by Trent, lyrical overlap is a thing in NIN's body of work. (http://www.ninwiki.com/Recurring_lyrics) Considering Mariqueen is Trent's wife, and has presumably listened to Trent's pre-HTDA music, is it not so crazy to think she might've just made the reference in passing, with no intention of tying her lyrics into Trent's world of Year Zero?

EDIT: Conceptual connections doesn't mean an addition to the Year Zero canon. The Downward Spiral and The Fragile have definite conceptual connections as well. Are they two stories about the same character?

I would use examples in Mariqueen's previous work to support my arguments but I have zero knowledge of any of it so I cannot.

[thepresence0]

Yes, but you seem to believe I am arguing there is a heavy handed connection. I'm not :)

I'm arguing that seem to be some loose connections, and they seem to be at least somewhat on purpose as opposed to just happening to match up. But you could be absolutely right. Maybe Mariqueen just decided to tread on similar ground to NIN's prior work.

[gorast]

Yes, but you seem to believe I am arguing there is a heavy handed connection. I'm not :)

I'm arguing that seem to be some loose connections, and they seem to be at least somewhat on purpose as opposed to just happening to match up. But you could be absolutely right. Maybe Mariqueen just decided to tread on similar ground to NIN's prior work.
Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

[BRoswell]

I think there's a loose connection in terms of both albums having apocalyptic themes, but Year Zero is much more political. Welcome Oblivion is more personal in its view of an apocalypse.

[oldschool]

I think there's a loose connection in terms of both albums having apocalyptic themes, but Year Zero is much more political. Welcome Oblivion is more personal in its view of an apocalypse.

I think that's a great way to put it.

Certainly they are still hitting on a theme of a grim future where mankind is headed. But there's a lot of different directions just that basic theme could head.

[uroboros]

I think the term that may be most apt is "Spiritual successor"

[SM Rollinger]

From a musical (and not lyrical) standpoint, Welcome Oblivion reminds me ALOT of Vessel. Sounds like they used the Virus pad again, and the overal tempo of the track, IMO are similar.

This album has that feel to it like it was written on a laptop. I dont think that was intentional, i doubt it was. But alot of the programming arangements do have that same "cut and paste" feel to em that YZ did (since it was mostly done while on tour for WT. for those who dint know)

[Volk]

They said the same thing about Ghosts I-IV.

[r_z]

They're saying a lot of things if it adds to the mystique.

[thepresence0]

So here's my conclusion about this:

The two albums can probably be considered spiritual cousins. Any lyrical or visual ties to Year Zero may or may not be intentional (who really knows. if there is an answer, I would almost prefer they never told us). If I had to guess, at least on Rob's part, the visual similarities are less on purpose and more the inevitable result of the band choosing to delve into similar thematic territory.

As was pointed out earlier, Year Zero is more of a bombastic exploration of the political / religious drama that engulfs our world. Welcome Oblivion is more of a meditation on what it means to be human when technology is moving faster than humans can keep up with. These are two sides of the same coin.

I just love that Welcome Oblivion exists. It's creeping up on being one of my three or four favorite things Trent has been involved with.

[LexTron6K]

I've had a feeling that HTDA is somehow very purposefully and tangibley connected to the Year Zero universe and mythology. This feeling grows stronger each time HTDA reveals something new (song, video, artwork, album, etc). If I remember correctly there was some band from our very near future that was imprisoned or something and kind of acted as a catalyst for the Art Is Resistance movement. . . Perhaps HTDA is this band that was spoken about by the future-citizens.

[thepresence0]

I've had a feeling that HTDA is somehow very purposefully and tangibley connected to the Year Zero universe and mythology. This feeling grows stronger each time HTDA reveals something new (song, video, artwork, album, etc). If I remember correctly there was some band from our very near future that was imprisoned or something and kind of acted as a catalyst for the Art Is Resistance movement. . . Perhaps HTDA is this band that was spoken about by the future-citizens.


I'm digging through the Year Zero archives to find some mention of a band from our near future. Haven't been able to find it yet, but I love your theory :)

Let me know if you manage to dig up a source on that.

[thefragile_jake]

I kind of thought this with the whole "the beginning is the end and it keeps coming around again" refrain...but I'm not too sure on if it's a real continuation of sorts.

[thepresence0]

For the hell of it... Let's open this discussion up a bit. Let's assume for the sake of argument that elements of HTDA have ties to Year Zero.

Who's perspective are the lyrics to Speaking in Tongues from?


I am made of magic and wires
And I am everything at the end of it all
I am moving from the messiah
And I am everything and nothing at all

I am speaking order from within
I am aberration by design
Still I'm here as I have always been
I am nature, perfect by design

Feeding on the apple in the sea
You have done exactly as you're told
Filling us with everything we need
Turn the blackened metal into gold

And all my arms will stretch across the sky
And you will see the glory of it all
Watching from a very different night
You will see the glory of it all

This is the place, this is the time I am the end of it all
We have become zeroes and ones, I am the end of it all

[thepresence0]

"I am made of magic and wires" and the line "We have become zeroes and ones, I am the end of it all"


These lines indicate to me some sort of Deus Ex Machina. Perhaps "The Presence" is an artificial intelligence of sorts? Interestingly the sixth page of the Welcome Oblivion PDF has a Terminator-like robot hand. Is this some sort of hint?


The Loop Closes video also seems to feature the same desert where "The Presence" hand came down in Year Zero.

[LexTron6K]

Perhaps the live shows will shed some light on any connections. Today in their AMA they mentioned a few odd things, including the fact that they don't currently and might never have more dates booked beyond the 10 or so that they've got now. They also mentioned that they'd been working on the love show for over a year, and that they're once again working in conjunction with the team that they realized the LITS stage show with. And then there's this, from Rob:

Also, regarding the comparison to NIN's Lights in the Sky: The HTDA show will be a very visual experience, and all of the creative team from Lights in the Sky is working on this. BUT, please do not go in expecting Lights in the Sky, because this is a very very different presentation from NIN. This is going to be more of a statement, more of an audio/visual installation than a rock concert. Probably a lot of people aren't going to "get" it, but hopefully they'll walk away saying "I'm not sure what the hell I just watched, but it was pretty cool."

That last line, coupled with the lack of any future shows makes me think this is going to be much more than just music plus visuals, and perhaps something much more theatrical in nature. That in turn makes me think about the one-off ARG show that NIN did where they threw everybody in a bus and surprised them with a show at a secret location, only to stage a fake police/military raid.

Trent has been a very iteritive artist throughout his career. Just look at how Fragility evolved into LITS. Perhaps the YZ ideas have simply been in gestation until the time is right. And maybe this all has something to do with why HTDA signed to a major. Maybe they needed the financial backing and resources of a major to pull off whatever this (maybe) is going towards.

or maybe not

NOTE: I've also tried to dig up that band reference in YZ that I mentioned, but this far I haven't had any luck. I'm positive that it's out there though.

[thepresence0]

I'm very curious what comes of the live shows as well. Regardless of whether this album is connected to the YZ-verse or not, I can't shake the feeling that there is a story of sorts built around these songs / media material.

The PDF's images are very interesting. Are they meant to evoke abstract emotion, or are they clues to something?

[butter_hole]

Perhaps the live shows will shed some light on any connections. Today in their AMA they mentioned a few odd things, including the fact that they don't currently and might never have more dates booked beyond the 10 or so that they've got now. They also mentioned that they'd been working on the love show for over a year, and that they're once again working in conjunction with the team that they realized the LITS stage show with. And then there's this, from Rob:

Also, regarding the comparison to NIN's Lights in the Sky: The HTDA show will be a very visual experience, and all of the creative team from Lights in the Sky is working on this. BUT, please do not go in expecting Lights in the Sky, because this is a very very different presentation from NIN. This is going to be more of a statement, more of an audio/visual installation than a rock concert. Probably a lot of people aren't going to "get" it, but hopefully they'll walk away saying "I'm not sure what the hell I just watched, but it was pretty cool."

That last line, coupled with the lack of any future shows makes me think this is going to be much more than just music plus visuals, and perhaps something much more theatrical in nature. That in turn makes me think about the one-off ARG show that NIN did where they threw everybody in a bus and surprised them with a show at a secret location, only to stage a fake police/military raid.

Trent has been a very iteritive artist throughout his career. Just look at how Fragility evolved into LITS. Perhaps the YZ ideas have simply been in gestation until the time is right. And maybe this all has something to do with why HTDA signed to a major. Maybe they needed the financial backing and resources of a major to pull off whatever this (maybe) is going towards.

or maybe not

NOTE: I've also tried to dig up that band reference in YZ that I mentioned, but this far I haven't had any luck. I'm positive that it's out there though.
$50 it's just flickering, static-y images of a TV screen. Like the artwork.

[zecho]

The band you're thinking of is NIN. Trent is who's put in prison. In fact, he and the band are detained in the Survivalism video, and the entire archive of websites sent back in time are being used as evidence of his crimes. They aren't going to do a show anything like the ARG one-off, as the footage from Coachella is supposed to serve as an example of their shows, and you can't do that kind of stuff at a festival. The similarities between this and YZ are there because they both include an apocalyptic theme. The borrowed "zeroes and ones" line is used because it fits the idea of technology being a part of humanities downfall too perfectly not to be used. "I am made of magic and wires" and the line "We have become zeroes and ones, I am the end of it all" are relating to transhumanism either literally or metaphorically to illustrate technology's role in the extinction of the human race. That's all this is about. No Presence, no YZ timeline connections, just a technology-induced apocalyptic setting. If I seem a bit blunt and absolute, it's because I view the constant searching for connections to a pre-established narrative arc exclusive to NIN is somewhat insulting to the band, and demeaning to the concept that Welcome oblivion is trying to establish.

[thepresence0]

Rob Sheridan just gave me a pretty great response re: the Terminator arm.
[/URL] (https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/309110775996358656)
https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/309110775996358656 (https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/309110775996358656)

[URL]https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/309111202120871939

"It's more symbolic, really. The album's loose concept is about anxiety of information overload as humanity and technology converge"

"…and presenting technological singularity and post-humanism as both a terrifying and transformative moment for mankind and nature."

[sentient02970]

fwiw, this is what Rob Sheridan has to say:

https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/308351592749465600

This doesn't at all surprise me coming from Sheridan as he's able to resurrect his analog glitch style of art that was used all over Year Zero. As for concept as a whole, sure the concepts have places of overlap but the projects are completely separate and have very different meanings to me. Trent in Year Zero considered a future based on present decisions or non-decisions, Welcome Oblivion seems to study a more internal reflection on what it means to be human.

[thepresence0]

The band you're thinking of is NIN. Trent is who's put in prison. In fact, he and the band are detained in the Survivalism video, and the entire archive of websites sent back in time are being used as evidence of his crimes. They aren't going to do a show anything like the ARG one-off, as the footage from Coachella is supposed to serve as an example of their shows, and you can't do that kind of stuff at a festival. The similarities between this and YZ are there because they both include an apocalyptic theme. The borrowed "zeroes and ones" line is used because it fits the idea of technology being a part of humanities downfall too perfectly not to be used. "I am made of magic and wires" and the line "We have become zeroes and ones, I am the end of it all" are relating to transhumanism either literally or metaphorically to illustrate technology's role in the extinction of the human race. That's all this is about. No Presence, no YZ timeline connections, just a technology-induced apocalyptic setting. If I seem a bit blunt and absolute, it's because I view the constant searching for connections to a pre-established narrative arc exclusive to NIN is somewhat insulting to the band, and demeaning to the concept that Welcome oblivion is trying to establish.

fwiw, I'm not arguing anything very hard here. Just playing with ideas and exploring possibilities. It's meant in good fun, and not meant to say there are any absolute connections to YZ. From what I can tell, there are no direct connections. And Rob Sheridan's responses to me indicate as much.

I just noticed a few interesting parallels and decided it would be cool to discuss them. To me the albums work as neat companions to one another, largely because again... they are exploring similar conceptual territory, and the artwork/sound is coming from (largely) the same individuals who made Year Zero.

[uroboros]

"…and presenting technological singularity and post-humanism as both a terrifying and transformative moment for mankind and nature."

he expounded on that on today's Reddit AMA:

[Rob] "The visual direction of this album came about first from the concept of the record. Trying to express the anxiety of information overload, the end of mankind as both terrifying and transformative, apocalypse and evolution, etc."

Of course, that last bit harkens to the end of yz, yeah?

[thepresence0]

he expounded on that on today's Reddit AMA:

[Rob] "The visual direction of this album came about first from the concept of the record. Trying to express the anxiety of information overload, the end of mankind as both terrifying and transformative, apocalypse and evolution, etc."

Of course, that last bit harkens to the end of yz, yeah?

I think it does harken back to YZ, conceptually. I'm quite jealous of anyone who is going to have a chance to go to the live show. Really hoping they come to Seattle, and if not... Hoping they release footage of one of the concerts. I have a feeling it's going to be something pretty special.

[BrokenSpiral]

So your loose connections to YZ are some recycled lyrics? Trent has never done that before...

[thepresence0]

If you read through the whole thread, there's a bit more than recycled lyrics.

And I want to address something that I find strange:

Many of you seem to feel it is "insulting" to insinuate any connection whatsoever between NIN and HTDA, or a NIN album and an HTDA album. Loose or direct. I find this perplexing and flat out weird. Rob himself said on yesterdays AMA:

RE: HTDA rising out of NIN's shadow and comparisons to NIN...

[Rob] "It's not something that really annoys us - it's fairly inevitable. I do find it funny that the NIN fans who don't like HTDA equally cite that it either is too much like NIN or not enough like NIN. What's weird to me is that these people focus so much on the comparison one way or another, and aren't able to just judge HTDA on its own. Do you think it's not enough like NIN? That's why it's called something different. Do you think it's too much like NIN? The band is made up of Trent, two guys he's been working closely with for 10+ years, and his wife - of COURSE it's going to have similarities. How much it was or wasn't like NIN was never a goal or concern for us in creating HTDA. It's simply what we wanted it to be, and we're extremely proud of it."

Doesn't sound to me like they find comparisons insulting. So why do people on this board? Also, I am not taking any of this all that seriously. I just think it's fun/interesting to discuss the areas of overlap and potential connections, purposeful or not, direct or loose.

Now I am new here. Maybe some of the reaction here is due to people in the past attempting to string *everything* back to Year Zero in an annoying or argumentative way. If that's the case, I can I understand why I'm getting a "Oh good, another one." vibe from some of you. :)

[brotha52]

Can someone help me out here. "Too late, all gone", What NIN track is the opening loop from? I was looking on Year Zero and couldn't find it.

[sheepdean]

Can someone help me out here. "Too late, all gone", What NIN track is the opening loop from? I was looking on Year Zero and couldn't find it.
None of them

[thepresence0]

Can someone help me out here. "Too late, all gone", What NIN track is the opening loop from? I was looking on Year Zero and couldn't find it.

It's not from any NIN track that I am aware of.

[Mataxia]

I was trying to figure that out too, I thought it sounded really familiar. It's 35 Ghosts/A Familiar Taste from TSN. It's not the same pattern but similar sound.

[sheepdean]

It's the same instrument probably, played by the same people. Same comment was made about Fur-Lined remember?

[Warped_Savant]

Can someone help me out here. "Too late, all gone", What NIN track is the opening loop from? I was looking on Year Zero and couldn't find it.
The Greater Good.

[thepresence0]

The Greater Good.

They are pretty similar.

[Mataxia]

Ah yeah, it sounds like a hybrid of The Greater Good and A Familiar Taste.

[Fred]

Never really thought of "Welcome Oblivion" as a clear-cut sequel to Year Zero, but how could there not be similarities? Trent political, ecological and spiritual views probably didn't die as soon as he'd churned out Year Zero and hey, guess what? Humanity is still dragging the whole planet towards the gutter. If you're an artist who cares about that, there's a lot more left to say.

That, and post-apocalyptic scenarios are quite fascinating. I can't blame HTDA for exploring these, and I actually find it more than a little refreshing that we're not just getting "You know me - I hate everyone"-songs from these guys.

[brotha52]

Ah yeah, it sounds like a hybrid of The Greater Good and A Familiar Taste.
This, thank you. Forgot to check TSN soundtrack.

[elevenism]

Never really thought of "Welcome Oblivion" as a clear-cut sequel to Year Zero, but how could there not be similarities? Trent political, ecological and spiritual views probably didn't die as soon as he'd churned out Year Zero and hey, guess what? Humanity is still dragging the whole planet towards the gutter. If you're an artist who cares about that, there's a lot more left to say.

That, and post-apocalyptic scenarios are quite fascinating. I can't blame HTDA for exploring these, and I actually find it more than a little refreshing that we're not just getting "You know me - I hate everyone"-songs from these guys.

Right, well said. And on top of that, Trent and MQ are laying in bed together at night...presumably spending all of their time together...of course they are going to share some of the same viewpoints, which will be expressed, consciously or not, in the art they create together.
OF COURSE it's related to year zero thematically...listen to the lyrics for christ's sake. i really don't understand how this is an argument.
Now is it year zero part two or set in the year zero "verse?" I don't think so, and sincerely hope not. this isn't a fucking comic book or star trek spin-off, it's a ROCK BAND.