SACD Vs. Vinyl

[Hidingintrees]

This is really about "The Downward Spiral" re-release. Should I buy the Deluxe edition for my Blu ray player that plays SACD or buy the Vinyl for an actual Vinyl player I would have to buy. I'm a pretty big NIN fan, so price isn't a problem, I'm just wondering if the Vinyl player would be higher quality than the SACD Deluxe Version. I want the best sound. Please give you're opinion. Also, general info about SACD and Vinyl quality would be appreciated. Thanks.

[sheepdean]

The best audio will be from the Dualdisc version of the album, the SACD almost the same. Vinyl won't be as technically "good", but of course it has the vinyl sound and warmth.

Hell, get both, just don't get the picturedisc of the vinyl.

[Hidingintrees]

Is the duel-disk automatically SACD? And what is it played best on?

[ItsJustDave]

The dual-disc is DVD-A. So it's not necessarily supported by your player (at least not the HD layer).

[sheepdean]

Yeah, your BD player might not play DVD-A perfectly, but if we're talking which is the absolute best release for audio quality, that's the one to go for. Although unless you're one of a small percentage of people, you can't hear the difference at that level, so stick with SACD.

[Hidingintrees]

I'm not quite sure what the HD layer is. I'm just wondering what I should buy that will best play the Dualdisk.

[Hidingintrees]

Yeah, I can notice virtually every change in a track. If the Blu-Ray won't play it perfectly, what should I get that will. And what's the SACD version? Is that the DualDisk?

[butter_hole]

the "24/88.2" sacd version is also mostly closer to an upsampled 24/44.1 because i think virtually the whole album was compiled digitally on DAT tapes and the like.

[sheepdean]

The DualDisc is DVD-A on one side, standard CD on the other. The SACD is in the Deluxe edition, and comes with a bonus disc of stuff that, iirc, is on standard CD.

[Hidingintrees]

Shit, I meant to say the Deluxe edition this whole time. So the Dualdisk is better than the Deluxe by just a tad? I already have the Deluxe, and I was wondering what player would compliment it the most.

[sheepdean]

If your player can read SACD, that's all that matters, you can use a standard CD player if it has SACD capability - obviously you want 5.1 for the best effect, but stereo still sounds fucking great. The Dualdisc is better for audio (although they do not fit into all players as they are slightly thicker than standard.)

And vinyl still sounds fucking great. Just, not the picture disc, please, I beg you.

[Hidingintrees]

What is the picture disk? I'm just going to buy vinyl so I have an experience with all of it. I love TDS so much. Can't wait for the Fragile Re-issue, whenever Trent takes time away from HDA, which I can't stand. Just because of his wife.

[butter_hole]

HDA, which I can't stand. Just because of his wife.
aaand im out.

[sheepdean]

A picture disc vinyl is one that has a picture on the disc, and therefore sounds worse because THEY PUT A PICTURE ON IT. When I see 180-200g vinyl with a picture on, I weep. Make sure you're buying it on black (the original pressing sounds better, iirc the back to black reissue has an issue on reptile).

[Hidingintrees]

aaand im out.

Her voice is terrifying.

[Hidingintrees]

A picture disc vinyl is one that has a picture on the disc, and therefore sounds worse because THEY PUT A PICTURE ON IT. When I see 180-200g vinyl with a picture on, I weep. Make sure you're buying it on black (the original pressing sounds better, iirc the back to black reissue has an issue on reptile).

Thanks a lot. If you have any other recommendations let me know

[Fixer808]

HDA, which I can't stand. Just because of his wife.
Well played, troll... well played...

[Frozen Beach]

Her voice is terrifying.
If Mariqueen's voice terrifies you, then I hate to imagine what Barbara Steisand's voice does to you.

[BenAkenobi]

I honestly don't see what's to discuss in regards to getting the Dualdisc, because often it can be found online for less than $10 shipped. SaCD not as often but if one cares about quality it's usually cheaper than vinyl edition and bonus CD saves you the hassle of getting Natural born killers / Crow soundtracks

[witte]

Vinyl is the best. Only you need decent gear (anyway, the same goes for playing cds).


...... whenever Trent takes time away from HDA, which I can't stand. Just because of his wife.
Sorry, you're at the wrong place...

[seasonsinthesky]

you really pulled something stupid with your HTDA bullshit, but i'll answer your questions anyway:

:SACD is the highest quality version of the release. (and it's not akin to "upsampled 44.1kHz," that was incorrect.)
:DVD-A is the nearest quality level. (it's only 24bit 48kHz.)
:vinyl basically sucks because they ruined the sequencing. (the intro of "I Do Not Want This" audibly fades at the end of side B, while the intro of "Reptile" is at the end of side C, and neither issue was corrected for the 2008 Back to Black reissue.) if you can handle that, it obviously offers greater-than-CD fidelity.

if you've already got an SACD-capable player, stick with that and the deluxe TDS.

[Leviathant]

Buy it on Dualdisc, SACD and vinyl. Some folks think vinyl sounds better, but that has nothing to do with which format preserves fidelity. The benefits of vinyl for nine inch nails releases are mostly in the presentation department. Given that Nine Inch Nails has been recording digitally since Broken, you're not chasing the mythical all-analog signal path. You're getting a record that might have been mastered a bit differently, resulting in a more limited dynamic range. As it stands, I have trouble playing Even Deeper on my record player without the needle skipping.

As a final note, the deluxe edition of The Downward Spiral also has more interesting packaging than the Dualdisc version.

[Hidingintrees]

you really pulled something stupid with your HTDA bullshit, but i'll answer your questions anyway:

:SACD is the highest quality version of the release. (and it's not akin to "upsampled 44.1kHz," that was incorrect.)
:DVD-A is the nearest quality level. (it's only 24bit 48kHz.)
:vinyl basically sucks because they ruined the sequencing. (the intro of "I Do Not Want This" audibly fades at the end of side B, while the intro of "Reptile" is at the end of side C, and neither issue was corrected for the 2008 Back to Black reissue.) if you can handle that, it obviously offers greater-than-CD fidelity.

if you've already got an SACD-capable player, stick with that and the deluxe TDS.

Thanks for the advice. But what do you mean HDA bullshit? I like everything about them but her voice. I just don't like it.

[eversonpoe]

Thanks for the advice. But what do you mean HDA bullshit? I like everything about them but her voice. I just don't like it.

it means that it was a completely unnecessary comment to throw into a thread that has NOTHING TO DO WITH HTDA. you're asking about the merits of TDS over different audio formats, and you wasted time to bash mariqueen's voice. and yeah, i realize i'm just playing into your trolling, but i can't help but explain things.

also, if you can get your hands on an original promo-pressing of TDS on vinyl, it sounds fantastic. that's what i have, and i've never had a complaint about it. (plus, it came with a postcard, banner/poster, and info sheet)

[butter_hole]

SACD is the highest quality version of the release. (and it's not akin to "upsampled 44.1kHz," that was incorrect.)
oh, really? because..

http://i.imgur.com/K5Nun.jpg

[seasonsinthesky]

your point being...? that's what the spectrum of a high-quality transfer from the TDS masters evidently looks like. there's nothing to indicate they took a 44.1kHz copy and upsampled — if anything, it indicates only that the real drums were recorded/sampled at a higher fidelity than the rest of the signals, making the higher-res version more warranted. additionally, any plugins that create harmonic content to 'trick' things into looking higher-res can't lock onto specifics like drum overheads inside a mix.

the surround mixes register stronger than the stereo mix, with most channels showing a secondary cutoff at 30kHz. (more warranted!)

i am guessing the lack of significant (guitar, etc.) signal above 24kHz is probably why they kept the DVD-A at 48kHz, making it indeed the second-highest quality copy released.

(this also shows the vinyl won't be giving you any more than the effect of the specific mastering and RIAA curve, which i suppose some people find desirable despite the sequencing fuckups.)

[butter_hole]

"is also mostly closer to an upsampled 24/44.1"

is what I said. by that i mean 88.2 isn't completely warranted as majority of the information is at 44.1K (hard encoded) padded with a bunch of silence.

[botley]

We don't know the signal chain used for the remasters. They might have gone from DAT to analogue 2" tape and back again for the final mixdown; it's possible, anyway. I don't really give a shit about material above 22 kHz anyway, because I can't hear it (and neither can you). There is a slight difference between sample rates in some cases, but the real difference in the high-resolution remasters comes from the added bit depth.

Fuck vinyl in the eye.

[jmtd]

I've enjoyed this thread, but I think a clear summary of the audio quality options is lacking from http://www.ninwiki.com/The_Downward_Spiral_(halo)#Re-Release.

[sheepdean]

I've enjoyed this thread, but I think a clear summary of the audio quality options is lacking from http://www.ninwiki.com/The_Downward_Spiral_(halo)#Re-Release.
Well, someone with more knowledge than I should type it up (cough seasonsinthesky )

[jmtd]

Let's see if I can summarize what I can understand from this thread.

The SACD *format* has the highest theoretical quality, at 88.2kHz samples, 24 bits per sample.
The DVD-A *format* lags with 48Khz samples, but still 24 bit.

Nobody knows much about the lineage of the album, but most of the information is within the 44.1Khz range anyway, so the additional headroom on the SACD doesn't have much in it.

Nothing much plays SACDs anymore.
Most DVD players will fuck up playing DVD-A too.
The PS3 used to play SACD and now doesn't; it can't handle DVD-A.
You can't buy portable players which decode >44.1 or >16bits.
To listen to TDS in HD, you either need esoteric hardware or need to transcode one of the releases to something else e.g. a blu-ray container.

Life is short.

[eversonpoe]

Let's see if I can summarize what I can understand from this thread.

The SACD *format* has the highest theoretical quality, at 88.2kHz samples, 24 bits per sample.
The DVD-A *format* lags with 48Khz samples, but still 24 bit.

Nobody knows much about the lineage of the album, but most of the information is within the 44.1Khz range anyway, so the additional headroom on the SACD doesn't have much in it.

Nothing much plays SACDs anymore.
Most DVD players will fuck up playing DVD-A too.
The PS3 used to play SACD and now doesn't; it can't handle DVD-A.
You can't buy portable players which decode >44.1 or >16bits.
To listen to TDS in HD, you either need esoteric hardware or need to transcode one of the releases to something else e.g. a blu-ray container.

Life is short.

any DVD player (including a PS3) will play a DVD-A disc as a normal DVD. you will still get high quality 5.1 audio (for this release).

for things like the king crimson remasters, you need a DVD-A specific player to access the MLP "lossless" version of the audio, but that doesn't exist on TDS DVD-A, so it's not a problem.

[seasonsinthesky]

for things like the king crimson remasters, you need a DVD-A specific player to access the MLP "lossless" version of the audio, but that doesn't exist on TDS DVD-A, so it's not a problem.

that last bit is pretty misleading. the TDS DualDisc does indeed have a DVD-A layer with lossless MLP versions of the 5.1 and stereo mixes.

i assume you meant something about the KC releases having some exclusive content on the DVD-A layer?

[butter_hole]

You can't buy portable players which decode >44.1 or >16bits.

iPhones and iPods can play up to 24/48.

[eversonpoe]

that last bit is pretty misleading. the TDS DualDisc does indeed have a DVD-A layer with lossless MLP versions of the 5.1 and stereo mixes.

i assume you meant something about the KC releases having some exclusive content on the DVD-A layer?

i don't think i ever realized there was a lossless MLP version on the DVD-A layer of TDS. so, i was mistaken! i apologize.

the one time i heard MLP (on one of the KC remasters), it really didn't sound very different to my (highly sensitive audiophile) ear, so i've never been that concerned with it. (i have a pioneer elite DVD player in storage that will allow me to play DVD-A discs as DVD-A and not standard DVDs, which is how i was able to do that.)

[seasonsinthesky]

it's dependent on the source files, of course. some of those KC tapes were in storage for a long, long time, and if the temperature isn't managed just so, it can affect the sound negatively. they digitized what they could preserve, and mixed (mostly — not Red in stereo, and not "The Devil's Triangle") what they had. if there's barely any extra frequency information, it's not going to impact you strongly, MLP or not.

TDS was all done on a computer, of course, so we're limited to whatever they used (apparently 24/48, although 48kHz on the DVD-A may just be to stave off the anti-alias filter effects, we don't know). i do find the top end slightly clearer but that's about the only place you're going to hear much improvement.

[TheBang]

any DVD player (including a PS3) will play a DVD-A disc as a normal DVD. you will still get high quality 5.1 audio (for this release).
I wouldn't exactly call it high quality. The DVD-Video track would be 5.1 AC-3, right?

On a related note, I have a Pioneer DV-588A-S I'm not using, that I'd sell cheap if someone wants it. It plays both SACD and DVD-A. PM me if interested.

[jmtd]

Well I'll be damned, turns out my pioneer surround system (which I haven't plugged in yet) can handle sacd!

[BenAkenobi]

...and you will compare your perceptions of both surround editions of TDS?

[jmtd]

Unlikely I'm afraid. I can't play the DVD-a (just the v layer) and the best rip I can find online is the v layer, so that would be an unfair comparison.

Santa discharged the sacd version from his bloated sack for me. Now I just need to figure out what to do about with teeth 5.1 :)

[Henrie_Schnee]

I'm all for the simultaneous release of a quadrophonic vinyl version of the (allegedly) coming The Fragile surround-remaster.

Fuck, I'd buy the necessary hardware.

[Leviathant]

...and you will compare your perceptions of both surround editions of TDS?

I've listened to both the SACD and DVDA versions of The Downward Spiral, they are indistinguishable aside from packaging and playback presentation. I think one of them just has a tracklisting, the other might play a slideshow of images, but I could also be confusing that with Ghosts.

[eversonpoe]

Unlikely I'm afraid. I can't play the DVD-a (just the v layer) and the best rip I can find online is the v layer, so that would be an unfair comparison.

Santa discharged the sacd version from his bloated sack for me. Now I just need to figure out what to do about with teeth 5.1 :)

if you go into the settings on your pioneer player, you can select an option to play the DVD-A layer on a DVD-A disc. (or, you should be able to do so. i can on my Pioneer Elite player)


I've listened to both the SACD and DVDA versions of The Downward Spiral, they are indistinguishable aside from packaging and playback presentation. I think one of them just has a tracklisting, the other might play a slideshow of images, but I could also be confusing that with Ghosts.

no, you're correct.