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View Full Version : [I am] embarassed by this video/song. I find this music to be loathsome.



aggroculture
11-28-2012, 09:49 AM
I haven't read this thread (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1169-Sigil-03_-An-omen-EP_), but I believe I am not alone in feeling embarassed by this video/song.

I don't own the EP and this is my first exposure to Ice Age.

It's nothing to do with what I expect or don't expect from TR: I find this music to be loathsome whatever the names attached to it.

[admin note: this was split from page 41 of the thread for An Omen (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1169-Sigil-03_-An-omen-EP_)]

Leviathant
11-28-2012, 10:06 AM
I haven't read this thread, but I believe I am not alone in feeling embarassed by this video/song.

I don't own the EP and this is my first exposure to Ice Age.

It's nothing to do with what I expect or don't expect from TR: I find this music to be loathsome whatever the names attached to it.

Cool story bro. Pretty much every release Trent puts out is prefixed with an interview where he says it's going to piss off a lot of people.

aggroculture
11-28-2012, 10:16 AM
Are you saying I shouldn't post my opinion here if it's not positive?
It doesn't piss me off. I'm a bit sad it's so bad, that's all.

sheepdean
11-28-2012, 10:21 AM
The "i haven't read the thread" followed by "haven't listened to the album" kind of makes your opinion a wee bit less valid, imo.

eversonpoe
11-28-2012, 10:21 AM
Are you saying I shouldn't post my opinion here if it's not positive?
It doesn't piss me off. I'm a bit sad it's so bad, that's all.

please don't hate me, i'm honestly just trying to explain:

i think there's a difference between posting a well-informed negative opinion and saying that you're "embarrassed" by the song and video and that you find it to be "loathsome."

now, back on topic: is anyone else going to back me up on that being a prepared auto-harp that trent is playing? I NEED TO KNOW WHAT IT IS!

Frozen Beach
11-28-2012, 10:44 AM
Anyone else waiting for Trent to pop out of nowhere with a rather immature response to some of the weak criticism in this thread?

eversonpoe
11-28-2012, 10:48 AM
Anyone else waiting for Trent to pop out of nowhere with a rather immature response to some of the weak criticism in this thread?

for a while, i honestly thought my voice just was trent fucking with us...but i'm not so sure.

Leviathant
11-28-2012, 12:47 PM
OK I'll have a think about why I dislike it so much, and maybe come back later.
That said I cannot help but resent a little the pressure here to only say positive things or keep your peace.
If I'd just posted "it's brilliant, I love it" no-one would chide me for that not being a "well-informed" opinion.

You're welcome to post negative opinions, but yeah, coming into a thread about the EP and saying, I didn't read the thread, I haven't listened to the EP, and I'm embarrassed by the video and loathsome music... if you're feeling shame from having watched that video, maybe you should start a thread about the video and talk about it there. Walking into a 40 page thread and announcing that you haven't read it isn't a great way to join the conversation.

Presideo
11-28-2012, 02:42 PM
The more people don't like it, the more I love it!
Go on, go on.
Ok, but only because you asked nicely.

Lets get down to brass tacks. The glaring weakness is Mariqueen - she's monotone, dull, lifeless, mechanical, and every other negative word you can use to describe a vocalist. She's pretty much Paul Banks with far less versatility, shittier lyrics, and a vagina. It seems like they tried to circumvent this weakness (her voice, not her vagina) by utilizing her, and vocals in general, as little as possible. However, putting whispered, repetitive vocals on top of minimal tracks leads to a very weak output.

Take Ice Age for example: am I really supposed to find 7 minutes of guitar/banjo plucking laced with a tedious vocal delivery compelling or worthwhile? Continues 7 second vocal pauses are littered throughout the verses and chorus, with only looped strumming to entertain us in between. I keep rolling my eyes when the distorted atmosphere comes in halfway, as if that's supposed to magically make the song more interesting. Sadly, it's the equivalent of putting lipstick on a pig. The video is even more obnoxious: M singing to a window sill while three middle-aged men dabble with cool-looking instruments. Then the video starts to glitch when the distortion starts, as if I didn't already expect that to happen.

It feels like they got pissed at everybody saying their first EP was basically NIN with female vocals, and decided to switch up their sound as much as possible. But when you strip the electric guitars and underutilize both percussion and vocals, you're left with a very limp, turgid collection of music. The feeling reminds me of Radiohead's 'The King of Limbs' - the songs aren't exactly bad or anything; they just lack any major impact.

[/rant]

jessamineny
11-28-2012, 02:55 PM
In light of the misogynist asshattery above, I'm once again requesting that Fuck You button. : /

Presideo
11-28-2012, 03:46 PM
Did you actually listen to Ice Age
Sadly, I did (iTunes counts 14; it felt like 41)

The better question is...did you read my paragraph criticizing that song? Sorry, but I don't find long vocal pauses in between every line she sings to be dynamic or energetic in any way. She also isn't Whitney Houston so she can't rely on her limited range, which she attempts to do during the chorus. I'd give her a break if this was the only time she uses this lifeless vocal delivery, but she uses it in almost every song. There was a reason she didn't sing in the 'Immigrant Song' cover - she couldn't.


In light of the misogynist asshattery above, I'm once again requesting that Fuck You button. : /
Criticize female vocalist
Mention that she has a vagina
Get called a misogynist

Stay Classy (note: I didn't say she was a bad vocalist b/c she had a vagina, I used it as a funny way to contrast her from Paul Banks, who has also been criticized for being a dull vocalist, but has better lyrics, more energy...and a penis. I really shouldn't have to explain it, but whatever)


I saw someone post "For NIN: meh. For West India Girl: awesome!"
Curious what your thoughts are on that statement.
I don't now much about West Indian Girl, but from what I've listened to it seems like she was only used to harmonize with the male vocalist. It doesn't seem like much was asked of her.

jessamineny
11-28-2012, 04:12 PM
Criticize female vocalist
Mention that she has a vagina
Get called a misogynist

Stay Classy (note: I didn't say she was a bad vocalist b/c she had a vagina, I used it as a funny way to contrast her from Paul Banks, who has also been criticized for being a dull vocalist, but has better lyrics, more energy...and a penis. I really shouldn't have to explain it, but whatever)

I have no problem with you criticizing her vocals, especially since you actually put some thought into it. I have no idea if I agree with you -- I haven't listened to 4/6 of the EP (I'm holding out for the LP). But there was no reason to add in the "and a vagina" cracks except to be vulgar and demean her as a woman. It wasn't funny. It was hateful.

BRoswell
11-28-2012, 05:42 PM
I'm not sure why Mariqueen has to hit a bunch of high or low notes in order for her to not be a "lifeless" singer. I've never been impressed with singers like Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston who everybody went gaga over because they could hit some high notes. Unless you're someone who just sings without any accompaniment, having range doesn't make you a better singer. Since we're on this topic, what kind of range does Trent have? I mean that too. What kind of range does he have? Sure, he can sing higher and lower than Mariqueen, but if we're honest with ourselves, he's not exactly the greatest vocalist alive. So why do we love Nine Inch Nails? Because it's not just about the vocals or the music, it's about how they are combined and interact with each other, and in that regard I think Mariqueen's vocals mixed with the band's music interact and play off each other very well. If you disagree, so be it, but most of the arguments and comparisons aren't convincing me otherwise at this point.

sheepdean
11-28-2012, 05:42 PM
There was a reason she didn't sing in the 'Immigrant Song' cover - she couldn't.
No, the reason is Fincher SPECIFICALLY CHOSE Karen O (note: it's Karen O feat. TRAR, it's her song).

Also, we probably need a shitlist thread in HTDA forum just for people to chew each other out about this kind of stuff.

JessicaSarahS
11-28-2012, 06:50 PM
I'm not sure why Mariqueen has to hit a bunch of high or low notes in order for her to not be a "lifeless" singer. I've never been impressed with singers like Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston who everybody went gaga over because they could hit some high notes. Unless you're someone who just sings without any accompaniment, having range doesn't make you a better singer. Since we're on this topic, what kind of range does Trent have? I mean that too. What kind of range does he have? Sure, he can sing higher and lower than Mariqueen, but if we're honest with ourselves, he's not exactly the greatest vocalist alive. So why do we love Nine Inch Nails? Because it's not just about the vocals or the music, it's about how they are combined and interact with each other, and in that regard I think Mariqueen's vocals mixed with the band's music interact and play off each other very well. If you disagree, so be it, but most of the arguments and comparisons aren't convincing me otherwise at this point.

Yeah, Trent may not have the best range, but he sure does have great vocal projection. That was definitely something that caught my attention; I stayed for the instrumental work. I think it's difficult for some people who like NIN to switch gears and be expected to like a vocal style that is similar to something on the other end of the spectrum, like The xx. Not that fans can't like both, but I understand the disappointment that some might feel. I wanted her to use more than a whisper on this EP, but now I realize it's just a style that they're going for. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I agree with you that people shouldn't insult Mariqueen for it.

DigitalChaos
11-28-2012, 07:15 PM
If I were Trent and I were reading this thread... the next track I release would use autotune to do a 16 octave deviation on the vocals just to fuck with all the haters.

DigitalChaos
11-28-2012, 07:20 PM
http://i.imgur.com/kcncJ.jpg

jessamineny
11-28-2012, 08:16 PM
Since we're on this topic, what kind of range does Trent have? I mean that too. What kind of range does he have? Sure, he can sing higher and lower than Mariqueen, but if we're honest with ourselves, he's not exactly the greatest vocalist alive.

TR is effective primarily because his voice has character -- and according to my pretty uneducated assessment, darn good pitch, too.

Incendiary Lover
11-28-2012, 11:07 PM
Apparently this is where I show the thought police that I didn't receive enough Kool Aid :( Sycophant or GTFO



I have no problem with you criticizing her vocals, especially since you actually put some thought into it. I have no idea if I agree with you -- I haven't listened to 4/6 of the EP (I'm holding out for the LP). But there was no reason to add in the "and a vagina" cracks except to be vulgar and demean her as a woman. It wasn't funny. It was hateful. I still don't see the hatred in his post, can you clarify? It was clear to me that Presideo was making a gender differentiation, maybe indelicately... But were on a board where guys call Lana Del Ray a slut because they don't like her video (I guess?). Someone we know uses pussy and cunt as an insult which imo is far more misogynistic than anything stated in this thread.

jessamineny
11-29-2012, 05:14 AM
I still don't see the hatred in his post, can you clarify? It was clear to me that Presideo was making a gender differentiation, maybe indelicately... But were on a board where guys call Lana Del Ray a slut because they don't like her video (I guess?). Someone we know uses pussy and cunt as an insult which imo is far more misogynistic than anything stated in this thread.

The gender differentiation was unnecessary. Who doesn't know that Paul Banks is a man and Mariqueen is a woman? Bringing up her genitalia, then, only served to belittle her related to her gender. Sure, it was more subtle than the "Trent's pet project for his wifey" cracks, but nevertheless it only adds to the pile of gender-specific belittling she gets.

And just because there's worse shit on the board (that I, and others, don't see and call people out for) doesn't make this instance OK. C'mon.

aggroculture
11-29-2012, 08:51 AM
Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out. I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough? Sounds like MM doesn't seem to have what it takes to front a band. TR has range - (listen to the massive diversity of vocals on TDS) - but beyond range he has had a lot of creativity with regards to his vocals and brought a whole new range of tricks to what it means to be a vocalist in a heavy rock/industrial band. His vocals have character, intensity, passion, wit. MM is a very mundane vocalist. There is nothing new or interesting to me here. When she sings "I feel the wind is growing colder every day" - for example, here we have not only a cliched lyric, but nothing done to it, in terms of performance, that would redeem the cliche. TR's lyrics are full of cliche, but his vocal delivery often transcends and transforms them into something convincing and compelling.
Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.


@Presideo (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=186) reminded me how i fucking love Paul Banks' vocals, both in Interpol and Julian Plenti. I have absolutely no reason to demand even slightly comparable performance from Mariqueen but if it came just a millimeter close, i'd be so happy. damn you for drawing these parallels, which i now cannot forget!

Paul Banks is a great vocalist. I think he does wonders with his flat, monotone style. To me he's like a robot Frank Sinatra.

jessamineny
11-29-2012, 09:02 AM
Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out.

Those qualities aren't being used or exploited. She's feminine because she's feminine. She's good-looking because she is. You want them to make her look like a hag so that people won't focus on her sex appeal? : / And she's up front because she's the lead singer.



Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.

Perhaps a thorough review of my posting history would be of assistance to you in this matter. :D

aggroculture
11-29-2012, 09:32 AM
Those qualities aren't being used or exploited. She's feminine because she's feminine. She's good-looking because she is. You want them to make her look like a hag so that people won't focus on her sex appeal? : / And she's up front because she's the lead singer.

None of these qualities can replace or stand in for lack of talent. And yes, you're right: she's the visible one in the video because she's the lead singer.
In order to successfully front a band, you need something to say. I'm not as of yet convinced MM does.

DigitalChaos
11-29-2012, 10:16 AM
Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out. I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough? Sounds like MM doesn't seem to have what it takes to front a band. TR has range - (listen to the massive diversity of vocals on TDS) - but beyond range he has had a lot of creativity with regards to his vocals and brought a whole new range of tricks to what it means to be a vocalist in a heavy rock/industrial band. His vocals have character, intensity, passion, wit. MM is a very mundane vocalist. There is nothing new or interesting to me here. When she sings "I feel the wind is growing colder every day" - for example, here we have not only a cliched lyric, but nothing done to it, in terms of performance, that would redeem the cliche. TR's lyrics are full of cliche, but his vocal delivery often transcends and transforms them into something convincing and compelling.
Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.


This makes for a fun out of context post. MM registers as Marilyn Manson. I am going to pretend this post came from many years in the past where Manson's gender and vocal abilities are being debated.

NotoriousTIMP
11-29-2012, 10:45 AM
^
At first I thought we were talking about Manson as well...

Canuckle
11-29-2012, 10:55 AM
Once again: I'm only commenting on the Ice Age video and song (with the first EP in mind). Actually I was just about to buy the new EP on amazon, and I saw the video had been released. So I watched it, and decided maybe I didn't want to spend that $5 after all. Are you saying I'm not qualified to an opinion on the video/song until I've listened to the whole EP? I can see that perspective. I can also see the opposite. The video/song put me off wanting more, and I'm voicing that reaction. I just felt negatively moved by that video, but maybe I should keep my feelings to myself until I have heard the whole EP: maybe the rest of it is very different from Ice Age and the first EP and I will be pleasantly surprised, who knows.

This is the exact context I was speaking of. Now your opinion makes more sense. Still, you would have to admit that 'embarrassed' and 'loathsome' are a tad harsh, no?

Simply saying: "I haven't listened to the entire EP yet, but after watching the video I'm not sure it is my cup of tea. Maybe I'll give the EP a spin on Soundcloud before I spend $5" is much less confrontational than; "Haven't read the thread, haven't listened to the entire album, but I'm embarrassed for the video/song and this music is loathsome" (Paraphrased of course)

All I'm trying to offer is a different way of providing criticism that isn't so brash. While I doubt this was your intention, it's no surprise to me that you received the reaction you did when posting that opinion on a NIN forum.

aggroculture
11-29-2012, 11:20 AM
Thanks, I didn't know about Soundcloud, listening now.

Canuckle
11-29-2012, 12:35 PM
Thanks, I didn't know about Soundcloud, listening now.

No problem! Didn't mean to come off crass, but this place gets very protective.

Once you take a listen you may find that Ice Age doesn't really fit in with the rest (in my opinion). One of the other tracks may fit your tastes.

sheepdean
11-29-2012, 01:29 PM
Just to add on top of what jessamineny said
Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out.This just reeks of sexism, in one of Trent's first videos, he was half naked and spinning, and has used sexuality and appearance in pretty much all of his projects (does he have a neck anymore?). Then you act like she is not even in the band: "they" put her up front, as though TR/AR/RS are the band and Q is just guest vocals. If you treat a woman fronting a band differently to a man, you're sexist.
I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough?Again, you're acting like this is Trent's band. Not liking her vocals is one thing (no one likes everything) but acting like your opinion is a fact, and that her vocals are not exactly what YOU want from whatever you think this band should be is being arrogant.

Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.You are on a fucking HTDA board. Expect fans of HTDA to be here.

Amaro
11-29-2012, 04:07 PM
I think @jessamineny (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=342) is choosing to see something misogynistic in the Paul Banks sentence made by @Presideo (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=186). I believe the vagina bit wasn't actually thrown in the list of traits that, according to Presideo, make her a lesser singer than Banksie (after drawing a base comparison). Certainly it was adding to how they're different. I think it's obvious it was included just out of being silly.

Incendiary Lover
11-29-2012, 04:57 PM
I wouldn't post in a thread with this title, IF GIVEN A CHOICE. Any dissent will be oppressed cause that's how we roll bitch! Nevermind that a fan actually agrees with the majority of posters, A TRUE FAN will fall in line and throw rotten tomatoes at the first sign of disagreement! Even add a little manufactured hatred for outrage.


The gender differentiation was unnecessary. Who doesn't know that Paul Banks is a man and Mariqueen is a woman? Bringing up her genitalia, then, only served to belittle her related to her gender. Sure, it was more subtle than the "Trent's pet project for his wifey" cracks, but nevertheless it only adds to the pile of gender-specific belittling she gets.
You've just described sexism, not misogyny. While I respectfully disagree, I see how Presideos statement could be misinterpreted.


And just because there's worse shit on the board (that I, and others, don't see and call people out for) doesn't make this instance OK. C'mon.
My comment about examples of woman hating on this board was in no way meant as justification, rather it was intended as a frame of reference. While there are certainly instances of misogyny here, imo this isn't one of them.

This isn't meant as an attack whatsoever, I made the comment because it seems there is a bit of defensiveness when posters offer a different opinion. Not necessarily directed at you, jessamineny, but Presideo posted a thought out opinion adding to the dialog. Differing opinions don't need to be suppressed, and they shouldn't be taken personally.

aggroculture
11-29-2012, 05:59 PM
Just to add on top of what @jessamineny (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=342) said This just reeks of sexism, in one of Trent's first videos, he was half naked and spinning, and has used sexuality and appearance in pretty much all of his projects (does he have a neck anymore?). Then you act like she is not even in the band: "they" put her up front, as though TR/AR/RS are the band and Q is just guest vocals. If you treat a woman fronting a band differently to a man, you're sexist. Again, you're acting like this is Trent's band. Not liking her vocals is one thing (no one likes everything) but acting like your opinion is a fact, and that her vocals are not exactly what YOU want from whatever you think this band should be is being arrogant.
You are on a fucking HTDA board. Expect fans of HTDA to be here.

When I say "they" I mean the whole band and whoever else around them that makes the decisions, including "Q". You are reading into it that I only mean the dudes. I think it's pretty sexist they put the hot woman up front and the other guys barely appear in the video. Like when Evanescence put a big pic of Amy Lee's face on the cover of their first album. You say I'm the one acting like she's not in the band. Yet here it looks like it's the dudes who are the ones treating the woman differently, separating themselves from her in the video. And yes, Trent has also sold himself as sexual object too. I am not averse to that per se: sometimes it's more tastefully done than others. I would have to go back and watch to give you an updated opinion on that, and maybe I will.
I am not acting like my opinion is fact (it's just my opinion, worth nothing after all), but you are having a knee-jerk reaction. Also, why does this have to be "a fucking HTDA board"? Why can't it be just a plain old "HDTA board"? Or rather, a HTDA forum on a NIN board? Fans can discuss bands without getting bent out of shape and calling people bigots if they have certain criticisms to bring to the table.

Presideo
11-29-2012, 06:10 PM
I have no problem with you criticizing her vocals, especially since you actually put some thought into it. I have no idea if I agree with you -- I haven't listened to 4/6 of the EP (I'm holding out for the LP). But there was no reason to add in the "and a vagina" cracks except to be vulgar and demean her as a woman. It wasn't funny. It was hateful.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your avatar a shopped image of Reznor autographing the ass-cheeks of women lined up doggystyle? Maybe you shouldn't be the foremost authority when it comes to whats considered hateful rhetoric towards women...

The vagina comment was a quip I used to add levity to 280 words of straightforward criticism. I certainly didn't mean to imply that penis > vagina, and still don't understand how it could be misconstrued as misogynous. I even went out of my way to reaffirm that it was a joke one sentence later. If you didn't care for the joke, that's cool. But stating that a woman has a vagina isn't hateful. Unwarranted? Sure. Hateful? Nope

Also, sorry for spreading misinformation about Mariqueen's involvement (or lack thereof) in the Immigrant Song cover. I can't help but wonder, though…if Fincher personally chose Karen O to do the cover, doesn't that mean that he chose her over Mariqueen? He chose HTDA for the slow ballad, but decided to only get 2/3 of HTDA for the energetic rocker? I wonder why…maybe he wanted an Immigrant Song cover without a heaping pile of deadpan with a side of stagnant.

jessamineny
11-29-2012, 06:13 PM
I also let men beat me. I'm complicated.

my voice just
11-29-2012, 06:25 PM
are you a feminist?

sheepdean
11-29-2012, 06:31 PM
I think it's pretty sexist they put the hot woman up front and the other guys barely appear in the video.The frontperson of the band and the lead singer is pretty much always the front of the band, regardless of their appearance. And of course, some people just prefer not being in the spotlight (Rob and Atticus appear far less than Trent).
Also, why does this have to be "a fucking HTDA board"? Why can't it be just a plain old "HDTA board"? Or rather, a HTDA forum on a NIN board? Fans can discuss bands without getting bent out of shape and calling people bigots if they have certain criticisms to bring to the table.My usage of fucking was as a modifier, you're being intentionally facetious. And you still seem to think being called bigoted is because you had negative criticism, rather than, you know, the sexism.


Also, sorry for spreading misinformation about Mariqueen's involvement (or lack thereof) in the Immigrant Song cover. I can't help but wonder, though…if Fincher personally chose Karen O to do the cover, doesn't that mean that he chose her over Mariqueen? He chose HTDA for the slow ballad, but decided to only get 2/3 of HTDA for the energetic rocker? I wonder why…maybe he wanted an Immigrant Song cover without a heaping pile of deadpan with a side of stagnant.
I cba to find the quote (I will if you REALLY want), but basically Fincher was listening to his iPod, Led Zep came on and he decided about then that he wanted a female voiced cover, and decided he wanted someone who sounds like Karen O. Even if Mariqueen is Fincher's all time favourite singer, she doesn't sound like Karen O, so obviously he'd chose Karen over Q for the song if he wanted that sound - and don't forget both TR and AR are married to female singers, I don't see anyone saying Claudia Sarne got snubbed for it.

aggroculture
11-29-2012, 07:01 PM
The frontperson of the band and the lead singer is pretty much always the front of the band, regardless of their appearance. And of course, some people just prefer not being in the spotlight (Rob and Atticus appear far less than Trent). My usage of fucking was as a modifier, you're being intentionally facetious. And you still seem to think being called bigoted is because you had negative criticism, rather than, you know, the sexism.

I'm sexist because I'm noting how a band puts their female singer's pretty face at the front, and asks you to focus on that? OK sure. It's done all the time, that must make it alright. Quite frankly I expect more from TR than such old hat moves. The guy is known for shaking things up, not going along with the Joneses.
You say it's my prejudice that sees "Q" as lacking in agency. I say nothing I've heard from or about HDTA has made me feel otherwise. I feel her presence within the music, and her vocals in general, are quite passive, submissive even. She seems here to add a pretty voice/face to these guys' music. I don't get the sense of her being an equal here, no. I wish I did.

Leviathant
11-29-2012, 07:49 PM
I think you are being weird, dude.


I'm sexist because I'm noting how a band puts their female singer's pretty face at the front, and asks you to focus on that?

Bands feature lead singers, whether they are pretty or ugly.


OK sure. It's done all the time, that must make it alright.

I can't find any posts from you complaining about Josh Homme's face being featured in all the QOTSA videos and photos. Or the way Bono's always got his mug up front for U2. Quick - name all the members of The Cure.


I feel her presence within the music, and her vocals in general, are quite passive, submissive even.

See, this is where it starts getting weird. You think she's a submissive and passive pretty face, a lesser member of the band than the men. That's you. Maybe you'll be able to step outside your bubble at some point and see just how weird this all sounds, but the more you talk, the more it sounds like you're being really negative about the singer in a band primarily because she's not a dude. I know that's not how you think you see it. I don't know, maybe you do rant about dudes who sing in a band but aren't worthy of their band members because they're not dominant and rough enough for you.

BRoswell
11-29-2012, 08:10 PM
Jesus Christ...is this really a point of discussion right now? I'll just go ahead and say what I'm thinking instead of sugar coating it: Even though I'm a man, I find the insinuation that Trent put Mariqueen at the front of the band simply for "window dressing" disgusting. A few people act like the only possible reason Trent put together How To Destroy Angels was to appease the whims of his demanding wife who wanted to be a star, and that really annoys me. Are we really to believe that a guy like Trent would stoop so low? Please. If you don't like the music, fine, but those kind of accusations are really idiotic.

Cat Mom
11-29-2012, 08:37 PM
Edit: Never mind, this thread is full of the same old Reznor-inspired goofiness that's been around for 20 years.

r_z
11-29-2012, 09:04 PM
Wow, how did you guys get here? This still is NOT and NEVER WAS about Mariqueen being a woman or marsian or whatever. It's about her vocal abilities as a lead singer, which are often (rightly?) critisized (here, as well as in various reviews I've read about the EP/band).

aggroculture
11-29-2012, 10:12 PM
the more you talk, the more it sounds like you're being really negative about the singer in a band primarily because she's not a dude.

Well I love Garbage. I think Shirley Manson is great, very talented. I never feel she's playing second fiddle to the others. But she is quite dominant and rough, I guess.
I also like Snake River Conspiracy, where Tobey Torres was totally Jason Slater's window-dressing. But they made a great record together.
I was saying I think Mariqueen isn't a very good singer, and I question TR's motives for working with her: this extends to my opinions on the video. However I understand this isn't the right thing to be saying in this thread. There's really no point but here goes anyway: if Josh Homme had a boyfriend and started a band with him, and I thought this boyfriend wasn't very good, I would also question that choice. I hope that wouldn't make me a homophobe.


Are we really to believe that a guy like Trent would stoop so low?

I don't know what you mean by that. "A guy like Trent"? I feel I am up against some serious TR worship here. I feel out of my depth. Trent is fallible, and (to me) HDTA represents some kind of a lapse of judgment.

An aside: Mariqueen's NINwiki says "Reznor and Ross worked on the music while Maandig wrote lyrics and vocal melodies, with Reznor and Ross offering guidance on how to make them fit with the music." I don't know who wrote that...but it doesn't inspire much confidence in HDTA.

sheepdean
11-29-2012, 10:16 PM
I think the photo of Atticus might actually from Ice Age, before it was heavily edited in post-production. Take a look at the video just past 5:45. There's a sequence of Atticus that looks like it could be from the same scene as the above photo -- just made nearly unrecognizable because of the special effects. (The photo also has walls and a beamed ceiling that look like the cabin.)
I see what you mean, but the angle of the camera and a few other things seem wrong. Maybe I'm being hopeful :P

An aside: Mariqueen's NINwiki says "Reznor and Ross worked on the music while Maandig wrote lyrics and vocal melodies, with Reznor and Ross offering guidance on how to make them fit with the music." I don't know who wrote that...but it doesn't inspire much confidence in HDTA.Hm, I think that was reference to a Wired article about how one track was written. I'll try to reword that or something.

BRoswell
11-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Wow, how did you guys get here? This still is NOT and NEVER WAS about Mariqueen being a woman or marsian or whatever. It's about her vocal abilities as a lead singer, which are often (rightly?) critisized (here, as well as in various reviews I've read about the EP/band).

If this were true, I'd have no problem with anything being said here. It's not though. I've seen more than enough people here and in other places imply that she's just a pretty face whose sole reason for being in the band is because she's Trent's wife. It's "Yoko Ono-ing" of the worst kind. Like I said, I have no issue with anyone who just doesn't care for the music on display here, but to single her out as the only issue, and not JUST for her singing ability, is flat out wrong.


Well I love Garbage. I think Shirley Manson is great, very talented. I never feel she's playing second fiddle to the others. But she is quite dominant and rough, I guess.
I also like Snake River Conspiracy, where Tobey Torres was totally Jason Slater's window-dressing. But they made a great record together.
I was saying I think Mariqueen isn't a very good singer, and I question TR's motives for working with her: this extends to my opinions on the video. However I understand this isn't the right thing to be saying in this thread. There's really no point but here goes anyway: if Josh Homme had a boyfriend and started a band with him, and I thought this boyfriend wasn't very good, I would also question that choice. I hope that wouldn't make me a homophobe.

See, this is my problem right here. You don't think she's a very good singer. That's cool. I disagree, but that's cool. But then you have to go and fuck it all up by saying "I question TR's motives for working with her." So you really think Trent would make up a band, go through the whole hassle of writing, recording and self promoting their first set of songs, spend two years working on a new set of songs, go back to a record company and hire high profile directors to do their music videos just because he's afraid of sleeping on the couch? People do crazy things for love, sure, but let's be real here.

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous notion, and that has nothing to do with "hero worship" either. Trent is not a flawless individual, but to imply...fuck it...to flat out state that How To Destroy Angels exists simply to please Trent's wife and that she's nothing but a pretty face to sell shitty music is rather insulting, not just to him, not just to Mariqueen, but to people who actually enjoy the music as well.

Also, saying that you like a band with a female singer doesn't make what you're saying any less ridiculous. Since you brought up homophobia, it's kind of like saying homophobic things, then going around and saying "But I have plenty of gay friends!". Whether or not you have those friends, or enjoy those bands, you're still saying something that, to a lot of people, sounds awful.

Leviathant
11-29-2012, 11:01 PM
@aggroculture (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=318) , when you give an example of a band that you like that is fronted by a woman that you consider "window dressing", you are not really helping to change the perception that your opinions have a sexist slant. Additionally, while we're talking about how you keep saying sexist things, you reply with "Geez guys lay off the TR worship" - you're continuing to miss the message here. Lord knows if Trent Reznor wanted to defend his wife from sexist posts on the internet, he'd just stop by and do exactly that. I don't believe that anyone here is retorting out of deference to the woman Trent Reznor married. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I come from in my replies is that you're showing a poor attitude towards women, full stop. And there was also that bit where you were like, "So I haven't listened to the EP and I didn't read the thread but here's my opinion" which was kind of a bad start.

P.S. without looking, tell me who's in the Cure. Who's in The Police? Or The Doors?

Leviathant
11-29-2012, 11:28 PM
Whoops, didn't mean to lock this.

Incendiary Lover
11-29-2012, 11:44 PM
Wow! Nice fucking split. Totally dig the title too.

Was this really the best way to deal with aggro's inappropriate comments? Fuck.

* edit Any other time this would be as despicable as a witch hunt. I would be screaming about censorship! Given that I actually agree with the majority opinion in the parent thread... its inexplicable.

Leviathant
11-29-2012, 11:51 PM
Wow! Nice fucking split. Totally dig the title too.

Was this really the best way to deal with aggro's inappropriate comments? Fuck.

The thread was split where it started to go off-topic. You'll note that the original thread was about An Omen, and this discussion centers specifically on Ice Age, and that aggroculture began with "I don't own this EP" - which, really, in a thread about the EP, that's how to start? The title of the thread was taken from the text of the post. If you'd like to talk about how you think I should moderate the forum, there's a reports & suggestions subforum for that.

I'd be happy to split your post off into a new one there if you'd like. If I did, the title would be "Was this really the best way to deal with aggro's inappropriate comments?" and I would link back to this thread. That's how I do these things.

Magtig
11-29-2012, 11:52 PM
Let's be honest, the most vile kinds of sexism have been oozing out of the nin community from both men and women ever since Yok... I mean MQ came and snatched Trent away from the person he truly belongs to: you. It's funny how few of these arguments seem to take MQ's point of view into account. I wonder what it's like to be hated/dismissed/etc just because you married someone who people think they know.

If this is really all about the music, then why did MQ's vagina and looks ever enter the conversation? If this is all about the music then how are Trent's motivations relevant? Shouldn't it still just be about the music in either case (positive or negative)?

Incendiary Lover
11-30-2012, 12:05 AM
Hopefully, that isn't directed at me. Really trying not to be defensive in this instance, but I'm certainly not questioning anyone's judgement or dismissing the music. I'm a fan of the music and never once brought up anyone's appearance...

Well, Magtig is still a fucking Troll. Quite the imagination too

Magtig
11-30-2012, 12:23 AM
It's not directed at anyone in particular. It's something that I've been noticing ever since people became aware of Trent and Mariqueen's relationship.

Fixer808
11-30-2012, 12:33 AM
It's easier these days to send death threats to your favourite celebrity's spouse. "@TheRealLindaMcCartney bich I hate u ur gonna dye for takin are PAUL AWAY"

JessicaSarahS
11-30-2012, 03:25 AM
Soo.... how bout that new video?

Madmya
11-30-2012, 06:14 AM
Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out. I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough? Sounds like MM doesn't seem to have what it takes to front a band. TR has range - (listen to the massive diversity of vocals on TDS) - but beyond range he has had a lot of creativity with regards to his vocals and brought a whole new range of tricks to what it means to be a vocalist in a heavy rock/industrial band. His vocals have character, intensity, passion, wit. MM is a very mundane vocalist. There is nothing new or interesting to me here. When she sings "I feel the wind is growing colder every day" - for example, here we have not only a cliched lyric, but nothing done to it, in terms of performance, that would redeem the cliche. TR's lyrics are full of cliche, but his vocal delivery often transcends and transforms them into something convincing and compelling.
Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.



Paul Banks is a great vocalist. I think he does wonders with his flat, monotone style. To me he's like a robot Frank Sinatra.

That's not how I saw it at all. I saw it as Trent not wanting this band to be about him, for it to be on its own merit. No idea why you'd bring her looks into it.

The music doesn't really cater for Mariqueen to really go nuts either. It's moody/atmospheric, screaming/wailing simply wouldn't fit. Her voice is beautiful though.

Having said all this, not a huge fan of the EP. I preferred the first one. Still, I look forward to the album.

Cat Mom
11-30-2012, 08:24 AM
aggroculture - for what it's worth, I don't like HTDA. I tried, but it's not my kind of music. And I'm ok with that. And I ignore this part of the forum 99.9% of the time.

BUT, I also hated Year Zero and that Saul Williams album. And I didn't try to find somebody or something to "blame."

Oy, Fixer808, I accidentally facepalmed your post because I was trying to read via Tapatalk without my glasses.

NotoriousTIMP
11-30-2012, 09:38 AM
Ah, this reminds me of the old ETS.

Say something out of line = everyone gets out their pitchforks and torches!

*turns off thread notifications*

FernandoDante
11-30-2012, 10:17 AM
Why was this split into a separate thread? So we can point and laugh at a different opinion?

snaapz
11-30-2012, 10:22 AM
If you are struggling with the video then try looking at it from a different perspective.

Watch it again and question everything you see, even in the shadows... Why are the side windows boarded up from the inside? Why are the bodies burning away and not the surrounding? Is there really an ocean? etc...

jessamineny
11-30-2012, 10:35 AM
Why was this split into a separate thread? So we can point and laugh at a different opinion?

I know you're not genuinely asking, but I'll point you in the right direction anyway.

http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1283-I-am-embarassed-by-this-video-song-I-find-this-music-to-be-loathsome?p=59101#post59101

aggroculture
11-30-2012, 10:45 AM
What a mess.

Well, I'll try and explain my position one more time, for those who care. My post about the video was a follow-up to Presideo's remark "The video is even more obnoxious: M singing to a window sill while three middle-aged men dabble with cool-looking instruments." If I were to do a more detailed reading of the video, I would probably use Laura Mulvey's concept of the "male gaze": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaze#The_.22male_gaze.22_in_feminist_theory in which she argues that cinema objectifies women for straight male viewing pleasure/power. Perhaps Mulvey's critique is dated, and ends up colluding with the very objectification it seeks to critique, in understating - or even erasing - female agency. This is pretty much the critique Sheepdean levelled at me: that with my words I was erasing Mariqueen from the band, and saying she has no agency. The way I see it, I was critiquing the video for doing that. MMR (does this acronym work better than "MM"?) is foregrounded, and - classic objectifying trope - "framed" by a window. The viewer is invited to gaze at her as an object of beauty. While the men get on with the "serious business" of playing the music in the background. Sheepdean said "If you treat a woman fronting a band differently to a man, you're sexist." My point is that the video is treating her differently to a man. Let's say HDTA was a project with Matt Bellamy: do you really think they would have made this video like this? Matt Bellamy in the front singing, with the dudes behind in the shadows? I don't think so. When you say "let's leave her looks and gender out of this, and only talk about the music" - I beg to differ. MMR is an attractive woman and the presentation of the band has “treated her differently.” If the band were really so interested in you taking them seriously as a band, maybe going about this video in the way they have wasn’t the best strategy.

Leviathant's point is that male and female singers are foregrounded alike. It's a fair point: pop music in general discriminates in favour of attractive people, of both genders. But to say that the music industry objectifies male and female singers in the same way is disingenuous. Female singers represent themselves and are represented in a far more sexualized light. I brought up Garbage as an example of a band in which the female singer doesn't play second fiddle to the others: yes, Shirley Manson is young and attractive, the other guys in the band not so much. But I feel from the very outset she was aware of the position she was in, and proved that she was not there as eye/ear candy. I feel MMR has yet to do this: maybe she will, but given what has come so far I doubt it.

Broswell made a point about "Yoko Ono-ing." This refers to another sexist narrative: a man is seduced from his correct path ("staying in the Beatles") by a bewitching woman who lures him away into sin and damnation ("breaking up the Beatles"). I don't think this is what I'm saying. What I think I'm saying is closer to the following. That since he loves her, maybe TR isn't particularly objective about MMR's talents. Maybe he thinks she's a better singer than she is because he loves her. This isn't so much an issue of sexism. More an issue of nepotism: when Eddie Van Halen hired his teenage son as Van Halen's new bassist - I don't give a shit about VH btw - my eyebrows went up. We're more indulgent towards the ones we love, and less forgiving of their shortcomings. That's what I see happening here. I never said anything about “sleeping on the couch” that was your straw man.

As to why the video made me queasy (beyond the framed woman issue I detailed above), this is trickier for me to articulate. TR is no stranger to putting his autobiography into his music. And HDTA is no different in that regard. Formerly he was miserable and angsty, now he's all about domestic bliss and babies. Happiness is a very difficult topic to put into art, and to me the Ice Age video illustrates this problem. Great art is not and has never been about expressions of happiness: it’s a cliché but it’s true. Domestic bliss has never been the catalyst for great art. TR adores his wife - and wants the world to share his feelings. But I may beg to differ. The video creates this cozy picture of a house in which the two of them (and friends) weather from the cold harsh outside world. I feel being asked to share in this kind of intimacy troubling. Why? Because TR is “mine” and he’s not allowed to be happy? Maybe there is a bit of that, sure. Since I’m trying to be honest about my feelings here, maybe this is in part about feeling possessive, as a fan, about “my Trent.” The critic in me – they are obviously inextricable – cringes at what HDTA is. I feel it’s hubristic in a way, a kind of showing off of TR’s good fortune. Aesthetically I find this song/video corny and twee. I’ve been listening to the EP – and it seems to me like a bunch of Ghosts-style tracks with Mariqueen’s vocals. So much for this being a band of equals.

As far as equality goes - from a career point of view TR and MMR are not equals. TR has been floating this type of project for a while now (I remember an interview, I’m sure at least a decade old, in which he talked about wanting to do a project with an “icy” female vocalist). I would have much rathered TR had hooked up with someone more his equal, career-wise: a Fiona Apple or Tori Amos. Somebody with more input, and more to say. Somebody less pliable perhaps. That would have interested me a lot more. Here I see an unequal relationship: TR is the older, more experienced artist, working with a young, beautiful muse. And holding her up for the world to see. If this isn’t a patriarchal-type set-up I’m not sure what it is. In saying this I don’t mean to rob MMR of her agency – her agency is in plain view: she’s there because she wants to be there. But none of us would know who she is, if she wasn’t Mrs. Reznor. In academia this is called a “spousal hire.” I guess what I would have liked here is some kind of recognition from the band of this situation by having them work around it in clever, witty, creative ways. Instead I feel they are the ones in a bubble, oblivious as to how HDTA may come across.

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts. If you still see sexist assumptions here, I’d be glad that you point them out, as I am genuinely interested in listening, and learning.

/TL DR

BenAkenobi
11-30-2012, 11:03 AM
any music teachers here? at this point we need less subjective evaluation of her singing abilities, don't we?

WorzelG
11-30-2012, 11:41 AM
Formerly he was miserable and angsty, now he's all about domestic bliss and babies. Happiness is a very difficult topic to put into art, and to me the Ice Age video illustrates this problem. Great art is not and has never been about expressions of happiness: it’s a cliché but it’s true. Domestic bliss has never been the catalyst for great art. TR adores his wife - and wants the world to share his feelings. But I may beg to differ. The video creates this cozy picture of a house in which the two of them (and friends) weather from the cold harsh outside world. I feel being asked to share in this kind of intimacy troubling. Why? Because TR is “mine” and he’s not allowed to be happy? Maybe there is a bit of that, sure. Since I’m trying to be honest about my feelings here, maybe this is in part about feeling possessive, as a fan, about “my Trent.” The critic in me – they are obviously inextricable – cringes at what HDTA is. I feel it’s hubristic in a way, a kind of showing off of TR’s good fortune. Aesthetically I find this song/video corny and twee.


Do you really see this video as showcasing domestic bliss?? I just didn't see that at all, I think this LP is going to be more of a story that will become apparent later on, I can't really work out what is going on yet - but happiness? No no or am I going mad and not seeing things that are obvious to others?

snaapz
11-30-2012, 11:50 AM
^^ I would like to see some discussion on the video too.

The first thing that caught my eye was the boarded up windows (side windows). The boards were placed from the inside, which leaves me to assume that the woman in the video put them there. Maybe she put them there because she wants to separate herself from the outside world, or maybe because there is nothing left out there to see... maybe even to protect herself. The one shot of the cabin (near the end of video) shows that the surroundings is a dry dead land... there isn't even an ocean. But that's fine, the woman sees things as she remembers.

The woman isn't singing, in my mind, she is pleading.. begging the ocean to envelop her or her thoughts. The "ocean" does come... at first it feels warm.

Images/memories flash ... good and fun memories. Maybe memories of childhood. The bodies all burn away leaving only the surroundings in the memory. The woman’s face is so broken &/or devastated.

Is this a turning point? What's driving her? There's much more going on here. I'm still processing the crashing waves that freeze. What is the ocean? I don't think there is an "ocean"... Is this severe depression?

BRoswell
11-30-2012, 01:19 PM
The video creates this cozy picture of a house in which the two of them (and friends) weather from the cold harsh outside world.

How am I supposed to take you seriously when THAT'S your interpretation of the video? :confused:

snaapz
11-30-2012, 02:47 PM
This video is far from "happy" or "blissful" or portraying a cozy cottage with a ocean view. In fact, the woman’s facial expressions & emotions almost make me think she wants to blast her brains all over the walls. She may feel safe inside that proverbial cabin, but ... it ain't good. (For a lack of a better term & being time to punch out for the day). Lot's going on with this video.


P.S. I think MQ has a great voice. Her voice knows its way around the circle.

BRoswell
11-30-2012, 03:51 PM
This video is far from "happy" or "blissful" or portraying a cozy cottage with a ocean view. In fact, the woman’s facial expressions & emotions almost make me think she wants to blast her brains all over the walls. She may feel safe inside that proverbial cabin, but ... it ain't good. (For a lack of a better term & being time to punch out for the day). Lot's going on with this video.

Exactly. The band isn't happily staying warm in a little cottage along the beach. They're in a shack (a well constructed shack, but a shack nonetheless) waiting for the end to come. We watch as the ocean freezes, the ice creeps its way into the only protection they have, and their memories become more and more distorted. There's nothing happy about it.

If we want to get into the lyrical content of the song, take this line as an example: "I take the memory of you and burn it to the ground." It's a pretty straight forward line, but considering the song is called Ice Age, and the fact that the video seems to indicate some sort of impending icy doom, this line might take on a new meaning. Perhaps she believes even the figurative idea of burning a memory might keep her alive, if only for a brief moment. She takes the bad memories and burns them, because now that she's losing those good memories, the bad memories are expendable.

EDIT: But I'm sure this doesn't mean a thing. I mean, look how HAPPY these two are!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me9wrzaZOQ1qbl7hpo1_1280.jpg

ghostaustin
11-30-2012, 04:37 PM
you guys don't see that tear of joy at 4:50?

WRG
11-30-2012, 04:38 PM
To me the video represents what is happening in their lives. Everything is falling apart (the family) and represents how she is feeling going through it. Freaking obvious! Trying to keep it together, then this, omg how obvious do they have to make it. Not to mention the video previously where they killed each other. I mean what else do they have to do "art" wise to represent it. Not rocket science. The album is called the OMEN! They did a good job representing what they are really going through, I can't believe people are so clueless!

WRG
11-30-2012, 04:39 PM
BTW, enough bashing her, from the interpretation of this video, I think she is going through enough considering it seems everything is falling a part.

jessamineny
11-30-2012, 05:02 PM
I thought the video revolved around an end-of-times theme. I'm sure I'm being influenced by the idea of TR grappling with end-of-life issues in an oceanside cabin at Big Sur. And probably the fact that Hillcoat (The Road) directed it. And lyrics throughout the EP.

With that said, why is she staring at the ocean? The ocean is where all life began on earth, so we're full-circle symbolically if they are playing with an end-of-times theme. Also, the waves of the ocean can be considered the heartbeat of the Earth. Right after we see the ocean's waves freeze, Q sheds a tear and then is overtaken by a creeping discoloration -- the same discoloration that then starts "erasing" the people in the home videos. (Which fits with the lyric "Ocean, oh, wash us all away.") I don't think the disappearing people are symbolic of her personal memories, since part of it looks like an Antarctic expedition, so it's more likely humans in general. The cabin itself is empty and seems abandoned -- thematically consistent with humans being erased and soon to be forgotten by time.

Why end the video with Rob removing a floppy? Is the removal of memory from the machine parallel symbolism for erasing humans from the Earth?

Magtig
11-30-2012, 05:23 PM
Female singers represent themselves and are represented in a far more sexualized light.

Do you really think MQ is representing herself in a sexual light here? You mentioned her looking out a window as an invitation to the viewer to objectify her. That you interpret this with that tone instead of what is actually happening, a woman looking out a window, carries a gender bias of its own. If she were standing naked in the window clutching a cucumber you might have a point, but from the content of the video this seems like utter nonsense.


Formerly he was miserable and angsty, now he's all about domestic bliss and babies. Happiness is a very difficult topic to put into art, and to me the Ice Age video illustrates this problem. Great art is not and has never been about expressions of happiness: it’s a cliché but it’s true.

This to me is an incredibly clear example of how distorted your lens is on this issue. Apparently you didn’t notice the scene where a tear was rolling down MQ’s cheek? It wasn’t a tear of joy. The people in the video appear to become burned black voids, the ocean freezes, and the ice creeps across the floor in the closing scene. Even the color palette of the video is desolate.

The ‘great art only comes from misery' cliché may be true for you, but it’s not for me and many others. To me it’s just a dumb thing people keep saying. Great art comes from nearly all emotions positive and negative. You’re neglecting to point out all sorts of art, movies, music, books, literature, etc that celebrate the joy and beauty of life. Maybe it’s just that you don’t particularly like that kind of creativity, but it’s pretty easy to point to example after example in almost any medium of great art that has expressed happiness, joy, wonder, passion, love, etc. I would say that this cliché is ultimately irrelevant to the sexist attitudes issue, but it seems to be the corner stone from which you (erroneously) interpreted the video.

WRG
11-30-2012, 07:27 PM
I thought the video revolved around an end-of-times theme. I'm sure I'm being influenced by the idea of TR grappling with end-of-life issues in an oceanside cabin at Big Sur. And probably the fact that Hillcoat (The Road) directed it. And lyrics throughout the EP.

With that said, why is she staring at the ocean? The ocean is where all life began on earth, so we're full-circle symbolically if they are playing with an end-of-times theme. Also, the waves of the ocean can be considered the heartbeat of the Earth. Right after we see the ocean's waves freeze, Q sheds a tear and then is overtaken by a creeping discoloration -- the same discoloration that then starts "erasing" the people in the home videos. (Which fits with the lyric "Ocean, oh, wash us all away.") I don't think the disappearing people are symbolic of her personal memories, since part of it looks like an Antarctic expedition, so it's more likely humans in general. The cabin itself is empty and seems abandoned -- thematically consistent with humans being erased and soon to be forgotten by time.

Why end the video with Rob removing a floppy? Is the removal of memory from the machine parallel symbolism for erasing humans from the Earth?

This is not NIN, this band is it's own entity, and not Year Zero. She is staring at the ocean because she doesn't want to be in the situation she is in remembering the memories of the past and/or memories made and she wants to wash away so it doesn't hurt so bad. Everything is falling apart, she is distant from the others in her band or family. The pictures of the family they have made (memories) are being burnt (family, kids), she is talking about all the feelings a woman goes through during the different stages of loss when a relationship is ending! Sad, wanting to run away, anger, etc.

jessamineny
11-30-2012, 08:11 PM
Cool interpretation of my post. I know you just joined, so let me assure you... the whole "HTDA is totally just NIN with a female singer" (I know, right? I mentioned what happened when he went away to write The Fragile FFS) or "OMG there are end-of-time themes in the songs! It must be YZ!" ain't my style.

But you're welcome to your interpretation of the video. Thanks for sharing your ideas. Interesting.

WRG
11-30-2012, 08:23 PM
Yeah I just joined THIS time, too bad I was from the old board and have been around for over ten years. Your interpretation is totally wrong. I don't think your calling in life involves analysis. Just saying. Stick with burger king or whatever fast food place your working at. I'm sure one day you will make manager before you die.

I say that as constructive criticism rather than to be mean although it does appear mean sorry! :) Just trying to help you get on the right path so you can better understand and i'm grouchy sorry. lol

orestes
11-30-2012, 09:03 PM
My god, what a shit topic.

Leviathant
11-30-2012, 09:09 PM
My god, what a shit topic.

Ha! I had just typed out a reply that basically said this, but I thought better of posting it, hehe. I agree though, this really is quickly becoming the filthiest, worst thread on the whole site.

Incendiary Lover
11-30-2012, 10:07 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or just get really pissy? Because you fucking started this thread? Instead of dealing with the issue, you just split posts in a bullshit judgment call. There has to be a better way to deal with imbalanced posters like aggro, because your solution just threw gasoline on the fire.

Ban me, delete me, make an example of me, whatever you think is fit but I don't want to be associated with this.

Cat Mom
11-30-2012, 10:07 PM
I was an English Lit major in college and Dr aggroculture sounds a lot like my English professors using feminist critical analysis. Wait, Dr aggroculture IS an English professor ...

sheepdean
11-30-2012, 10:13 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or just get really pissy? Because you fucking started this thread? Instead of dealing with the issue, you just split posts in a bullshit judgment call. There has to be a better way to deal with imbalanced posters like aggro, because your solution just threw gasoline on the fire.

Ban me, delete me, make an example of me, whatever you think is fit but I don't want to be associated with this.As a mod on a few forums, I would've done the same. The posts were increasingly offtopic and detracting from the rest of the thread. Rather than deleting all of the comments, which would be a bullshit judgement call, Levi allowed the whole thing to continue without telling anyone to stop, and allowing everyone to rationalise themselves.

And please, always remember: forums aren't democracies. They're monarchies.

orestes
11-30-2012, 10:34 PM
Ban me, delete me, make an example of me, whatever you think is fit but I don't want to be associated with this.

Nah, bro, you're not worth the effort.

Leviathant
11-30-2012, 10:58 PM
I don't know whether to laugh or just get really pissy? Because you fucking started this thread? Instead of dealing with the issue, you just split posts in a bullshit judgment call. There has to be a better way to deal with imbalanced posters like aggro, because your solution just threw gasoline on the fire.

Ban me, delete me, make an example of me, whatever you think is fit but I don't want to be associated with this.

I already mentioned that if you want to debate how this board is run, there's a subforum for that... But to even entertain the idea that I'd ban you or delete you for disagreeing with me is melodrama of a very low order.

If you don't want to be associated with this, you don't have to reply to it.

orestes
11-30-2012, 11:13 PM
I was an English Lit major in college and Dr aggroculture sounds a lot like my English professors using feminist critical analysis. Wait, Dr aggroculture IS an English professor ...

In other words, he's talking out of his ass. ;)

sheepdean
11-30-2012, 11:48 PM
If you don't want to be associated with this, you don't have to reply to it.
*cough*notifications for being quoted*cough*

Presideo
12-01-2012, 12:02 AM
Can we please stop the admin circlejerk and get back to the topic at hand?

I find all the symbolism wankery to be hilarious, mainly because there is none.
- The video takes place in a room because all HTDA vids take place in a room.
- There is an ocean because it's in the lyrics.
- They're in a cabin because cabins are sometimes next to oceans, and they'd get sand in their hip gadgets if they performed outside.
- Frost forms on the window because Trent said they "put [the song] in a freezer" (whatever the fuck that means.)
- Mariqueen sheds a tear because the song is depressing.
- Rob is in the video because Trent threw him a bone (instant replies)
- Random clips of people turning into black nothingness is included because it's 'deep' and looks cool.
- Everybody is either sitting down or standing in place because there's no reason for them to be energetic…because the song is Ice Age.

BRoswell
12-01-2012, 12:17 AM
- Rob is in the video because Trent threw him a bone (instant replies)

Thanks for showing that you only care about stirring up an argument. I can now ignore the rest of your posts. :D

Presideo
12-01-2012, 12:31 AM
Thanks for showing that you only care about stirring up an argument. I can now ignore the rest of your posts. :D
And yet you took the time to reply anyways. Good job. You really showed me what's what.

But seriously, why don't they just go ahead and change the band name to 'Big Daddy Rez and the Yes-Men'?

sheepdean
12-01-2012, 12:32 AM
I find all the symbolism wankery to be hilarious, mainly because there is none.
- The video takes place in a room because all HTDA vids take place in a room.
- There is an ocean because it's in the lyrics.
- They're in a cabin because cabins are sometimes next to oceans, and they'd get sand in their hip gadgets if they performed outside.
- Frost forms on the window because Trent said they "put [the song] in a freezer" (whatever the fuck that means.)
- Mariqueen sheds a tear because the song is depressing.
- Rob is in the video because Trent threw him a bone (instant replies)
- Random clips of people turning into black nothingness is included because it's 'deep' and looks cool.
- Everybody is either sitting down or standing in place because there's no reason for them to be energetic…because the song is Ice Age.
-That is such a ridiculous statement. HTDA has had 2 previous videos, and the fact they all take place "in a room" (TSIB technically takes place in 2 rooms and a corridor) makes you think it's not a symbolic thing.
-So maybe the video reflects the meaning of the song? Like, you know, videos often do?
-That's just being flippant. The choice of a cabin might be due to the fact they're often near water, but the specific style of cabin and its lighting clearly was chosen, this was a set, not a real place.
-And you don't think the song being called ICE age might be something to do with it?
-You're a cunt
-Rob was in the last video too. He's a full member, and this video has all members in. If they ever go the Pop route and have only one member in a video, then he won't be probably.
-Or it's about erasure, did you notice the band members did the same to a lesser level?
-"everyone is sitting down or standing". Thankyou for describing humans.

Seriously, you're just being a dick now.

Presideo
12-01-2012, 01:04 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek

You sound like a priest trying to defend every single word in the doctrine. Pro tip: don't do that. You come off as a little too sensitive considering it's a 7 minute video.

sheepdean
12-01-2012, 01:14 AM
I'm done with you, so leaving it at this:
You don't like the music/video/band/whatever, fine. You don't need to justify it by making shit up, and then when the flaws in your argument are pointed out, pretend that you were being tongue in cheek. Fuck off, you're a cunt.

xx

Incendiary Lover
12-01-2012, 01:17 AM
Oh for fucks sake sheepdean just pull your face out of their collective ass you filthy brown noser! I'm sure your next in line to join the mod circle jerk

So is Presideo a dick? or a cunt? I'm assuming that since you're using these terms as an expletive that either or both are derogatory?

Amaro
12-01-2012, 01:22 AM
Oh for fucks sake sheepdean just pull your face out of their collective ass you filthy brown noser! I'm sure your next in line to join the mod circle jerk


So is Presideo a dick? or a cunt? I'm assuming that since you're using these terms as an expletive that either or both are derogatory?

Lol I was literally about to type that similar response. To the dick/cunt point. Blahhhhhhhhhhhaha. Whatever.

Presideo
12-01-2012, 01:26 AM
I'm done with you, so leaving it at this:
You don't like the music/video/band/whatever, fine. You don't need to justify it by making shit up, and then when the flaws in your argument are pointed out, pretend that you were being tongue in cheek. Fuck off, you're a cunt.

xx
Do you seriously lack the comprehension skills to understand what is a joke and what isn't? Do I have to add a winking smiley face after every joke like when I was 14yrs old on AIM?

Lets try this again.
- The video takes place in a room because all HTDA vids take place in a room. ;)
- There is an ocean because it's in the lyrics. ;)
- They're in a cabin because cabins are sometimes next to oceans, and they'd get sand in their hip gadgets if they performed outside. ;)
- Frost forms on the window because Trent said they "put [the song] in a freezer" (whatever the fuck that means.) ;)
- Mariqueen sheds a tear because the song is depressing. ;)
- Rob is in the video because Trent threw him a bone (instant replies);)
- Random clips of people turning into black nothingness is included because it's 'deep' and looks cool. ;)
- Everybody is either sitting down or standing in place because there's no reason for them to be energetic…because the song is Ice Age. ;)
- Mariqueens vagina ;)

Incendiary Lover
12-01-2012, 01:27 AM
Magrao! That's sexist! And Misogynist! And probably some other ist thats really awful!

But hey, if you keep calling people cunts and generally treating people like shit, you might get to join the cool kids in the mod fuck fest!

That goes double for you Presideo. Vagina is far too pc, must use a more sinister term

Fixer808
12-01-2012, 01:31 AM
So is Presideo a dick? or a cunt? I'm assuming that since you're using these terms as an expletive that either or both are derogatory?
This right here is a classic example of trolling, which confuses me, because I seem to recall that you... let me just check now... Asked the mods to delete your profile at 7:18pm today. (That's 1918 for those of you, like me, who prefer military time...)

Incendiary Lover
12-01-2012, 01:34 AM
That's kind of the point genius.

Fixer808
12-01-2012, 01:42 AM
Way to go, I'm on the ropes right now.

my voice just
12-01-2012, 06:38 AM
this board is overloaded with cunts and dicks

witte
12-01-2012, 07:03 AM
^^don't agree
everybody may say what (s)he wants and thinks.

Only, I'm really happy with the creation of this topic.
Clear to me not to visit it anymore and ... only concentrating on serious discussions ( ;) ) on the other topic.

aggroculture
12-01-2012, 07:47 AM
I thought the topic was not the video - but my rudeness/sexism/erroneous interpretation of it (there is no such thing as an erroneous interpretation btw - an interpretation, by nature subjective, can be good/bad/idiotic/insightful/etc- but never "wrong" or "right").
I've explained where I was coming from with my comments - I certainly didn't intend this type of discussion to follow them. I went "off-topic" in that I was responding to (to my mind somewhat misguided) accusations of sexism.
So feel free to lock this up already: the point has been made, taken, and reflected upon.

Cat Mom
12-01-2012, 09:09 AM
In other words, he's talking out of his ass. ;)
Well, no, actually, a lot of it makes sense and aggroculture has put real thought into it. Agreeing with his position isn't necessary, but it spawned a big thoughtful discussion (which is what English professors do). I've never known him to be sexist so I don't automatically assume he's sexist in this instance. On the contrary, it appeared that he was calling out what he saw as sexist; but, bands and fans and objective discussions don't mix well.

WorzelG
12-01-2012, 09:34 AM
I'm confused by the whole sexism thing as I thought it was Presideo who got accused of sexism, not aggroculture -

Minpin
12-01-2012, 09:51 AM
I appreciated Aggros initial "embarrassing and loathsome" post, though I don't necessarily agree with it. It was a blunt reaction to a song/clip. That he needs to listen to the entire EP and then read 40+ pages on a message board before he can have a response, is bullshit. And them espousing it, retarded. It's a response, not a review, chill out! Heaven forbid you have a gut reaction and don't dress it up into a flowery critique.

Having listened to the entire EP and having read the 40+ pages (of extreme insight) in the An Omen thread, I will go with the magically validated... "dull and uninspired" :p



everybody may say what (s)he wants and thinks. MISOGYNIST!! By writing (s)he instead of s/he, you're relegating women to an inferior position. Locking her up in a tiny bracketed box, because you hate her!...

thats about the level of stupid Jessamineny's initial misogyny finger point was...

snaapz
12-01-2012, 10:37 AM
I think it's great that HTDA was able to put out a video that has generated so much discussion with a wide range of opinions. If everyone immediately gave the video 5 stars then it would be a bit disappointing. I wish that we could limit the bashing and being rude to ourselves...

I'd still like to hear a theory explaining the crashing waves that freeze/pause mid crash, with a bird flying by... she says sometimes she can only hear the waves crashing when she tries to remember... now even the waves have stopped leaving her with nothing.

Sometimes I open up the walls and disappear (un-boarding the front window; reflecting on buried memories)
Sometimes the crashing of the waves is all I hear (the memory we see her remembering; then the crashing waves stop)

Cat Mom
12-01-2012, 10:46 AM
I'm still not in the "music video is art" camp. (See "Deep" video for further reference.) Perhaps this is the director's interpretation of the song, but it's still intended to MARKET the song.



I appreciated Aggros initial "embarrassing and loathsome" post, though I don't necessarily agree with it. It was a blunt reaction to a song/clip. That he needs to listen to the entire EP and then read 40+ pages on a message board before he can have a response, is bullshit.
I agree that it's obvious that he described his gut reaction, which is not the same as (or less valid than) an informed critique.

marodi
12-01-2012, 12:52 PM
Well, I liked the song before seeing the video and it turns out that I like the video too. I don't have great philosophical explanations about it except for:

1-I like the way it looks
2-Some images in it reminded me of E. Elias Merhige's Begotten. I'm not sure it was the intent of either the band or the director though but it did anyway.

There: I've said it. I feel all better now.

WorzelG
12-01-2012, 03:21 PM
I appreciated Aggros initial "embarrassing and loathsome" post, though I don't necessarily agree with it. It was a blunt reaction to a song/clip....

'embarrassing' is fine, but 'loathsome' ??? That has very specific connotations that seem weird to attach to any song, to me, loathsome would be Gary Glitter digging up the corpse of Jimmy Saville and doing a weekend at bernies style duet of 'thank god for little girls' THAT is loathsome. Just such a strange way to describe it

sheepdean
12-01-2012, 03:47 PM
to me, loathsome would be Gary Glitter digging up the corpse of Jimmy Saville and doing a weekend at bernies style duet of 'thank god for little girls'
That is the single best idea for a film ever

Cat Mom
12-01-2012, 04:38 PM
'embarrassing' is fine, but 'loathsome' ??? Just such a strange way to describe it
I wasn't kidding when I said he's an English professor. A Ph.d English professor. He probably meant "makes me want to puke." Oh, wait ...

WorzelG
12-01-2012, 04:42 PM
^^you really have to be British to understand that! I think anyone from anywhere else without the history would take a look at Saville and go 'what the fuck?'

Cat Mom
12-01-2012, 04:47 PM
(He's been in the headlines here in the U.S. a lot because of all the child sex abuse allegations. Well, at least on NPR, heh.)

WorzelG
12-01-2012, 04:58 PM
I wasn't kidding when I said he's an English professor. A Ph.d English professor. He probably meant "makes me want to puke." Oh, wait ...

see I could understand that being said - loathsome is just an excess of english! This video is actually a bit depressing so what i don't understand is Trent saying that they think this will be accessible to people outside the NIN community,(which I took to mean more mainstream) whereas I have a hard time imagining people outside the NIN community giving a 7 minute folksy song a chance? Also, the name of the band is a bit - confrontational - to Americans surely, as they are such a religious nation?

BRoswell
12-01-2012, 05:10 PM
see I could understand that being said - loathsome is just an excess of english! This video is actually a bit depressing so what i don't understand is Trent saying that they think this will be accessible to people outside the NIN community,(which I took to mean more mainstream) whereas I have a hard time imagining people outside the NIN community giving a 7 minute folksy song a chance? Also, the name of the band is a bit - confrontational - to Americans surely, as they are such a religious nation?

I don't think Trent and Co. are trying to be more mainstream. I think they want to reach other people who might enjoy this type of music but who might not be Nine Inch Nails fanatics. If the goal was to be more mainstream, they certainly picked the wrong sound to go with.

Presideo
12-01-2012, 08:27 PM
I don't think Trent and Co. are trying to be more mainstream. I think they want to reach other people who might enjoy this type of music but who might not be Nine Inch Nails fanatics. If the goal was to be more mainstream, they certainly picked the wrong sound to go with.
Agreed. I'm sure they could easily make a catchy 4-minute alt-rock song for the mainstream airwaves if they really wanted to. Fur-Lined could have been a small hit if they had Columbia to market it in '10.

I have plenty of qualms about the new EP, but respect them for delving into the "experiment in rhythm" concept - it worked for Keep It Together and Speaking in Tongues.

snaapz
12-03-2012, 06:29 PM
I didn't notice the wet foot prints left behind while walking to the stool/seat at the beginning of the video... they wait until the end of the video to show the foot prints. They could have shown it right at the beginning but chose to show this at the end... what's its significance? My problem with these things is that I end up coming up with 100's of possibilities. Did she just walk out of the ocean that isn't really there? At least I thought she was imagining the ocean outside the window... The footprints walk around the water, so how did they get wet?

Is there any connection with The Space in Between? There is an unknown person seen standing in water in the washroom, barefoot @ 2:39. Maybe shes dead now and wet from.. ahh I dono

Ice Age

http://snaapz.bounceme.net/share/htda_1.jpg

P.S. I don't "loathe" this video - this seems to be the only thread for the video. I quite enjoy the video.

eversonpoe
12-03-2012, 10:32 PM
I didn't notice the wet foot prints left behind while walking to the stool/seat at the beginning of the video... they wait until the end of the video to show the foot prints. They could have shown it right at the beginning but chose to show this at the end... what's its significance? My problem with these things is that I end up coming up with 100's of possibilities. Did she just walk out of the ocean that isn't really there? At least I thought she was imagining the ocean outside the window... The footprints walk around the water, so how did they get wet?

a lot of the time, a bare foot can leave a small trace of sweat, and if the whole cabin was beginning to freeze, it would make sense that the places where she stepped would show up as frozen footprints. i just interpreted it as a natural progression of what's happening in the video.

BRoswell
12-03-2012, 10:54 PM
Is there any connection with The Space in Between? There is an unknown person seen standing in water in the washroom, barefoot @ 2:39. Maybe shes dead now and wet from.. ahh I dono

I don't think there's any connection to The Space In Between. Also, I'm pretty sure the person in the bathroom is supposed to be Trent. He's dressed in a suit and is wearing what appears to be a wedding ring.

snaapz
12-04-2012, 08:19 AM
^ Great thought. I thought TR was dead on the floor and I think the hands look much older than TRs?

BRoswell
12-04-2012, 05:42 PM
^ Great thought. I thought TR was dead on the floor and I think the hands look much older than TRs?

Considering the somewhat abstract nature of the video, I think it's quite possible that it's him, probably in a moment before the shit hit the fan.

screwdriver
12-04-2012, 09:46 PM
I'm still not in the "music video is art" camp. (See "Deep" video for further reference.) Perhaps this is the director's interpretation of the song, but it's still intended to MARKET the song.

ehhh.... have enough years passed to where I can quote this without being laughed at immediately?




All you read and wear or see and hear on TV is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar / So, shut up and buy my new record.



this whole "what is art" thing is an endless rabbit hole. I try to focus on the substance rather than the label... the authorial intent is sort of irrelevant to inquiry.

botley
12-05-2012, 09:18 AM
[Nigel Tufnell voice] What's wrong with being sexy?

my voice just
12-07-2012, 05:49 AM
I'm pretty sure the person in the bathroom is supposed to be Trent
didn`t someone on ETS speculated, that it`s peter christopherson?..
(and yeah, hands do look much older)