Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[neorev]

Chris Hardwick denied it, then leaked his text messages to TMZ and had his mother-in-law, PATTY FUCKING HEARST go out and defend him. Then his wife, Lydia Hearst, defended him on Instagram and people like James Gunn, Joe Randazzo, and other blue checks liked and commented on it.

Men are trash.

I don't know, I read Chloe's story and I thought she contradicted herself a few times. I know I am a man, but I also let my wife read it and she felt the same way and had a much more negative reaction to Chloe's side of the story. Neither one of us are entirely anti-Chris Hardwick at the moment and I'm not entirely anti-Chloe. I just think Chloe should put out the evidence she claims to have. Something just feels off with that whole situation and found her story didn't make sense in some places. At the moment, I'm just not sure what to think. Unless some new damning info has since come out that I'm unaware of.

The Maynard thing, well there's just a lot of stories out there that set up a pattern and points to being true. If true, what a fucking douche.

Is anyone following Gaslamp Killer's accusation? It's going to trial. He had a witness on his side that contradicts the girl's story. Also, the girl who claimed he raped her and her friend together, the other girl she said was involved hasn't even come out to back the main girl's claim. Very weird.

Like @zecho said, you just don't frigging know. Women have lied before. Just look at that Duke lacrosse players incident. Humans, both male and female can do shitty things.

[Cookster426]

Can you imagine the fucking meltdown ETS would have if Trent ever got accused of wrongdoings. Lets just hope none of those groupies and strippers Trent was plowing through on The Downward Spiral tour dont ever come forward with accusations.....

I could see Courtney Love coming out with accusations on Trent, but no one would believe her.

[tremolo]

Yeah, the culture of transactional sex is lurid, it's hard to look at, but before social media, in some respects this type of gossiping and anonymous sharing of data was all that these women had as a means of preparation for attempting to have some intimate contact with their idols. MetalSludge is framing it in an especially headline grabbing, masculine centering "these DIRTY WOMEN compared the size of their CONQUESTS' COCKS" way because that grabs their audience's attention. But if you read the sources from the women themselves, there are notes like "here is how this person likes to play, kinds of kinks they may have, drug issues, etc." as a means of weeding out men who some might consider off limits for various reasons. Understanding and empathising with that is not too difficult, really. And now we have #metoo self-reportage, because there is a transparent, instantaneous platform for telling these stories.

But locker room talk is sexist and talking about women in a sexual way between buddies is cool... until someone overhears, then it becomes pretty much a hate crime or something.

It’s absurd.

[Halcyon]

But locker room talk is sexist and talking about women in a sexual way between buddies is cool... until someone overhears, then it becomes pretty much a hate crime or something.

It’s absurd.

Being an asshole has consequences, more at 11

[playwithfire]

@zecho How do you feel about the sentiment that like... all men have toxic masculinity forced on them and it's something they have to reckon with and work to overcome?

[tremolo]

Being an asshole has consequences, more at 11

The double standard is laughable.

Be an asshole, get treated like one. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

[playwithfire]

The double standard is laughable.

Be an asshole, get treated like one. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Why do you do this? Like, you could show empathy for people but instead, you do... this. Why?

[sweeterthan]

Why do you do this? Like, you could show empathy for people but instead, you do... this. Why?

Let's not derail the discussion.

[playwithfire]

I'm not trying to derail, but I understand why it might be taken that way. I don't understand what tremolo is trying to do with statements like that, and I'm trying to understand what he's trying to do so I can engage with it in a way that is actually constructive.

[zecho]

@zecho How do you feel about the sentiment that like... all men have toxic masculinity forced on them and it's something they have to reckon with and work to overcome?

I'd say I agree with that. There's a bias towards men in most aspects of society world wide, and I think it is something that as a man you have to realize on your own unless you are raised by parents who feel strongly about it. Regardless as to whether or not you are sexist or believe in equality, just being a man puts you at an advantage in society. It's not something you have to try to take advantage of, you get it just by existing. In the same way that you have white privilege just by being white, regardless of whether or not you're a racist. You have to acknowledge that other people experience things that you don't because of who they are, and I think it's something that we as a society have to work to fix. And that includes men accepting that society is wrong about who they should be, or what it is acceptable to be, and admit that they have an advantage that they shouldn't.

I hope that's a decent enough answer.

[tremolo]

Why do you do this? Like, you could show empathy for people but instead, you do... this. Why?

Do what? How does me commenting on women making public their sexual encounters with famous rockers, translate into a lack of empathy?

To me it just shows the lack of common sense when “sexual asshatery” is the topic in discussion. Why can’t these issues be addressed from more than one angle?

The whole MJK thing... i don’t know how much of it is real and I won’t jump to blindly believing either party. If it is real, I’m very sorry for the victim and MJK should be charged, but given it was 18 years ago, I don’t see it happening. If it is bs, that person should face the consequence of her/his acts.

It’s not that complicated.

[playwithfire]

I hope that's a decent enough answer.

I really appreciate you answering my question, and I agree with you. I think (and I'm probably saying something you already know here, but still wanna voice it) statements like "men are trash" is a commentary on the ways men are complicit in stuff like toxic masculinity, rape culture, patriarchy, etc. Also, like, every single one of those terms tends to alienate people who aren't familiar with them, which is frustrating but true.

As a white person, I didn't choose my own unconscious biases or the privilege I hold in a country that systemically oppresses people of color, but I am complicit. Also, like you mentioned with regards to men, my upbringing can play a huge role in that, how I think and behave with regards to being white, but the likely default is that I'm probably not being taught shit like unlearning toxic behavior, allyship, etc from a young age.

And like, people of color have centuries of being oppressed by white people, and some warranted suspicion and anger. Like @Sarah K said, I don't mind when people of color say things like "white people ruin everything" because I can hear the "people" and not "you, playwithfire, ruin everything" -- but like, I still should probably examine the ways I may have contributed to that shit, right? And, I'm not going to get anywhere by asking the people who have been on the receiving end of marginalization to not call that out, right? And since I know better, I think it's important to avoid going "hopefully you don't mean me" when I see people of color doing that.

I think the only real constructive thing I can do with language like "men are trash" is to not pull it out (because I absolutely say it as well, sometimes) when I'm trying to have a constructive conversation with a person who I know that language will alienate, and to empathize with people who make different choices.

[sweeterthan]

Do what? How does me commenting on women making public their sexual encounters with famous rockers, translate into a lack of empathy?

To me it just shows the lack of common sense when “sexual asshatery” is the topic in discussion. Why can’t these issues be addressed from more than one angle?

because that angle isn't even on topic here. What do consensual encounters have to do with rape and assault?

[playwithfire]

Do what? How does me commenting on women making public their sexual encounters with famous rockers, translate into a lack of empathy?

I feel like, historically, you show up in threads like these to talk about double standards, or criticize consent practices, or things like that, as a first pass. Maybe I'm missing something here, but instead of starting those discussions independently you seem to always raise them at times where something supporting "the other side" of your chosen issue allows an opportunity to rebut or criticize. I wish, if you felt strongly enough to choose to bemoan double standards or how consent is never fully guaranteed, you'd bring up those discussions without needing another sad event as a prompt.

I think this is something I would really like people to do in general with this issue. Like, we do not need to wait for someone to tell a harrowing story of rape to talk about false accusations. A woman doesn't have to be raped for us to go "but it happens to men too." If you care about this stuff (and I mean "you" as a general term) why can't you raise these topics outside of contrasting them against shit in a way that comes across as dismissive?

[tremolo]

because that angle isn't even on topic here. What do consensual encounters have to do with rape and assault?

Did you read the title of the topic? It’s not just about rape and assault. The topic is pretty broad and it encompasses a lot of complicated subjects. I think there should be room to discuss anything from different perspectives instead of reducing it to discuss only what you consider important or on topic.

Men are judged over what they say about girls. Men talking amongst men about how great of a cocksucker Stacey is, or how “awesome” it was to bang Nina in the ass is seen as vulgar, sexist, reducing women to mere objects, patriarchal, derigatory, etc. Clearly there is a general view about that kind of talk, and it’s negative. That is a fact, I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with it,I’m just presenting something that just is.

Now, women talking online about famous and easily recognizable men about their dick size, whether or not they’re a good fuck, if they are considerate or assholes, or if they’ll take you for a fancy dinner before and a nice breakfast the morning after, etc... for some reason there’s no need to discuss it, or this is not where or when... who the fuck has the say on when and where is the right time and place? That’s probably the same shit attitude that assault and rape victims had to confront at some point.

[tremolo]

I feel like, historically, you show up in threads like these to talk about double standards, or criticize consent practices, or things like that, as a first pass. Maybe I'm missing something here, but instead of starting those discussions independently you seem to always raise them at times where something supporting "the other side" or your chosen issue allows an opportunity to rebut or criticize. I wish, if you felt strongly enough to choose to bemoan double standards or how consent is never fully guaranteed, you'd bring up those discussions without needing another sad event as a prompt.

I think this is something I would really like people to do in general with this issue. Like, we do not need to wait for someone to tell a harrowing story of rape to talk about false accusations. A woman doesn't have to be raped for us to go "but it happens to men too." If you care about this stuff (and I mean "you" as a general term) why can't you raise these topics outside of contrasting them against shit in a way that comes across as dismissive?

I don’t follow or support any specific causes (as in being actually engaged), and I won’t start one either.

The topic is out there, I’m not sorry you don’t like how I interact about the topic here, that’s for you to deal with.

Again, it’s just things that get my attention and I bring them up, not to turn them into a cause, but just because I find those double standards interesting.

[miss k bee]

1. "We have to train men to think rape is unthinkable as cannibalism."

No. We have to train mankind to think rape is unthinkable. I'm sick of this shit.
Maybe, I know someone who's raped by a woman. Maybe that someone didn't get as much attention as he deserved.
I really despise this hatred, and usual hostility against men when it comes to this topic.


2. "It's not true. OK, so I'm just another guy on the internet, but I've had the privilege of getting backstage on more than a few separate occasions for both Tool & APC. I am somewhat well known taper, been to 103 Tool shows, and 50+ APC shows, 20+ Pusicfer shows. I've got the passes to prove it, I was even given one of the Maynard harem passes because they were out of the standard ones. "I also have had 2 female friends (age 20 & 23 at the time) pass muster and get to sleep with Maynard and have gotten all the details. One ended up being a repeat contact because she lived in LA and could participate with him there when off tour.
"1. First off, there is and was no blonde heavy set woman who acted as his handler for this. Women do receive special passes, but they were handed out from his all male security staff.
"2. The security staff checks IDs. If you are not of age, you do not get to go backstage. 17, though 'legal' in some states, does not make the cut. Full stop.
"3. Passes for Maynard are different than the normal backstage pass for the show. A couple examples I can think of (and one I own that I received personally when they were out of normal ones) has a collage of women in KISS makeup sucking dick or other sexual acts. An APC one had a picture of Maynard in Roman garb that said 'Have you serviced your gladiator today?' or something similar. There are no illusions about what you are there for.
"4. All backstage people are brought backstage to 1 or 2 rooms. Sometimes the Maynard groupies are brought to a separate room. It's never 1 woman alone. The smallest group I saw was 5 or 6 women, but could be up to 20. Maynard makes an appearance in the room, might make some chitchat, and then leaves. His security staff will then approach whichever 1 or 2 women that Maynard has selected for the night and tell them that Maynard would like them to come back to the bus or the hotel for the night.
"5. Both experiences recounted to me, from two women who do not know each other, Maynard was caring, slow and gentle. There was no pressure. He is interested in anal as you would assume, but did not with the one because she never had. Again, no pressure. This act ended up happening later when she was one of his regulars in LA.
"6. After the act, both women had nothing but good things to say about him and about the security staff (Making sure they were OK to leave the area and had some transportation as they left).
"So you take those 2 accounts, and also what I saw happen in general with the process other times backstage, make the accusers account incredibly hard to believe. For the guy down below in the thread who's girlfriend was weirded out for not letting her BF backstage with her, I hope you understand by now that Maynard does not and will not meet normal Tool fans. Never.
"Has he appeared at any of the Tool clinics? No. Has he ever appeared at any of the APC VIP events? No. I only met him once backstage and he was not thrilled with my concert total. Actually told me that I shouldn't see them that many times. The meeting only happened because I was in with a group of family for another person on the crew.
"I haven't been backstage since he's been married, so I don't know if his groupie whoring has continued. I don't think he should be demonized for this behavior. Yeah it sucks that he doesn't want to meet the casual fan to have them gush over his music, but it doesn't make me want to listen to them less."


3. What if Maynard didn't do it? What if she's telling a lie?

Then you guys are the offender. Everybody should be given the benefit of the doubt. This is a personal matter happened 17 years ago.
It would be hard for her to prove this happened. I know that.
It would be even harder for Maynard to disprove it.


I don't mean to offend anyone by writing this post. But if you are offended, I offer my apology.
But after reading some of the comments I felt I need to share my thought here too.

Wtf.....my eyes are bleeding!

[sweeterthan]

Did you read the title of the topic? It’s not just about rape and assault. The topic is pretty broad and it encompasses a lot of complicated subjects. I think there should be room to discuss anything from different perspectives instead of reducing it to discuss only what you consider important or on topic.

Men are judged over what they say about girls. Men talking amongst men about how great of a cocksucker Stacey is, or how “awesome” it was to bang Nina in the ass is seen as vulgar, sexist, reducing women to mere objects, patriarchal, derigatory, etc. Clearly there is a general view about that kind of talk, and it’s negative. That is a fact, I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with it,I’m just presenting something that just is.

Now, women talking online about famous and easily recognizable men about their dick size, whether or not they’re a good fuck, if they are considerate or assholes, or if they’ll take you for a fancy dinner before and a nice breakfast the morning after, etc... for some reason there’s no need to discuss it, or this is not where or when... who the fuck has the say on when and where is the right time and place? That’s probably the same shit attitude that assault and rape victims had to confront at some point.

you are the only one who thinks the thread title means that. Show me any other part of this thread where people are posting about women talking about people's dicks. It also says "in the news" and as far as i know the only news making dick talker is stormy daniels (braver than megyn kelly) and going after the powerful man who tried to silence her.

[zecho]

I really appreciate you answering my question, and I agree with you. I think (and I'm probably saying something you already know here, but still wanna voice it) statements like "men are trash" is a commentary on the ways men are complicit in stuff like toxic masculinity, rape culture, patriarchy, etc. Also, like, every single one of those terms tends to alienate people who aren't familiar with them, which is frustrating but true.

As a white person, I didn't choose my own unconscious biases or the privilege I hold in a country that systemically oppresses people of color, but I am complicit. Also, like you mentioned with regards to men, my upbringing can play a huge role in that, how I think and behave with regards to being white, but the likely default is that I'm probably not being taught shit like unlearning toxic behavior, allyship, etc from a young age.

And like, people of color have centuries of being oppressed by white people, and some warranted suspicion and anger. Like @Sarah K said, I don't mind when people of color say things like "white people ruin everything" because I can hear the "people" and not "you, playwithfire, ruin everything" -- but like, I still should probably examine the ways I may have contributed to that shit, right? And, I'm not going to get anywhere by asking the people who have been on the receiving end of marginalization to not call that out, right? And since I know better, I think it's important to avoid going "hopefully you don't mean me" when I see people of color doing that.

I think the only real constructive thing I can do with language like "men are trash" is to not pull it out (because I absolutely say it as well, sometimes) when I'm trying to have a constructive conversation with a person who I know that language will alienate, and to empathize with people who make different choices.

I'd like to commend you for being so level headed. I didn't come into this thread with the intention of making people mad, but to say that we should wait for more to come out before we launch into outrage. And I know that I probably blend in with the people who defend predators when I say that, but I truly am not one of those people. I think that my views and Sarah K's probably align a lot more than she, or anyone in this thread would think, but it's hard to contextualize all of someone's beliefs in a forum on the internet.

And that's why I think it is so important to have people like you who empathize and don't have knee jerk reactions. The fact that you try to understand instead of telling people to fuck off is very admirable, and I think it goes a long way in furthering discussion without alienating anyone. For example, I'd not considered the "men are trash" statement might be comparable to the "white people ruin everything" statement until this post. The world is wrapped up in so much hate right now that it's very easy to take statements like those literally. Thanks for doing what you're doing.

[tremolo]

you are the only one who thinks the thread title means that. Show me any other part of this thread where people are posting about women talking about people's dicks. It also says "in the news" and as far as i know the only news making dick talker is stormy daniels (braver than megyn kelly) and going after the powerful man who tried to silence her.

Hold on a couple of minutes. I’ll read the whole 560-something posts and I’ll be right back... but it was just brought up a few posts ago, I just decided to touch on that... an unspeakable form of apathy from my part, apparently

I’m just bringing up a point. You don’t have to care or even aknowledge it. I won’t cry and complain if that’s what you choose to do.

[ThinkIcouldburn]

I'm not going to really contribute anything to the conversation here. I just don't know what to think at this point. On one side, there's no proof, there's just an anonymous person on the internet. On the other side, I can understand the fear of coming out publicly with this information at this time. I enjoy Maynard's music, but know almost nothing about the kind of person he is now, nor who he was 19 years ago. While at this time I cannot condemn the man, I appreciate that she started a conversation which could grow and give legitimacy to the accusations.

[imail724]

Warning: Not Maynard related:

[kel]

oh my god.

[Sarah K]

I can't understand what they are saying there, but holy shit. Her restraint is admirable.

[theimage13]

But locker room talk is sexist and talking about women in a sexual way between buddies is cool... until someone overhears, then it becomes pretty much a hate crime or something.

It’s absurd.

Oh thank GOD you came here to chime in.

"Locker room talk" is the biggest cop-out ever. It's a load of shit so thick that you could get a tank stuck in it. If you think something is acceptable to say "in the locker room", then you think it's acceptable to say. Period. If you don't think it's acceptable, then the only difference is that you just don't want to be caught saying it. And as one of my favorite people once said: "if you don't want to see yourself doing it on the news, don't do it". "Talking about it between buddies" IS locker room talk, and it's a bullshit excuse for anything. If you say it, you mean it. If you don't, then don't fucking say it.

[thevoid99]

Ugh..... if I was Mel B, I would've bitch-slapped that motherfucker and then punched Simon Cowell for being an asshole.

[tremolo]

Oh thank GOD you came here to chime in.

"Locker room talk" is the biggest cop-out ever. It's a load of shit so thick that you could get a tank stuck in it. If you think something is acceptable to say "in the locker room", then you think it's acceptable to say. Period. If you don't think it's acceptable, then the only difference is that you just don't want to be caught saying it. And as one of my favorite people once said: "if you don't want to see yourself doing it on the news, don't do it". "Talking about it between buddies" IS locker room talk, and it's a bullshit excuse for anything. If you say it, you mean it. If you don't, then don't fucking say it.

First of all, i never said that kind of talk was fine. I think it’s puerile and understandable in young people who are just starting to experience their sexuality as adults. Being a grown-up and doing that kind of talk is just stupid.

Then again, some people seem extremely concerned about what others talk in private... maybe they should get a life of their own. People talk shit all the time, and even if they don’t mean it, they have the right to talk shit and take it for what it is. You don’t get to dictate what people should and shouldn’t say in a private conversation. Get over yourself.

[barkhammer]

Being an asshole has consequences, more at 11 here's Tom with the weather

Fixed that for you.

[sweeterthan]

Hold on a couple of minutes. I’ll read the whole 560-something posts and I’ll be right back... but it was just brought up a few posts ago, I just decided to touch on that... an unspeakable form of apathy from my part, apparently

I’m just bringing up a point. You don’t have to care or even aknowledge it. I won’t cry and complain if that’s what you choose to do.

What is your point and how does it pertain to this topic? We’re discussing sex assault.

Get over yourself.

How about you stop derailing the thread? Thanks!

[tremolo]

What is your point and how does it pertain to this topic? We’re discussing sex assault.


How about you stop derailing the thread? Thanks!

All I did was point out something that someone else posted and the hypocrisy behind the reactions over the exact same actions when those talking shit are female.

Asking me to not derail the thread while insisting on quoting me and asking questions is pretty stupid.