Not The Actual Events

[DW_]

As someone who listens to and generally likes Swans, Neurosis, and Isis (and Aaron Turner's many new projects and families of bands), I get the feeling that you're looking for a very specific kind of sonic experience when you say "with knives." The piano bridge of "With Teeth" followed by the explosion of the last chorus is one of the most vital and dangerous moments on that record, IMO, and yet it's basically a ballad going into slow dance-pop. Then again, I think "BYIT" is one of NIN's most challenging songs.

Yes, I agree, the piano bridge section of that with the melting whammy-pedal lead guitar solo is just great. When it kicks back is cool. There are moments on that record that do it for me, I'm not saying it's a worthless album, but most of it is really very far below what he's capable of imo

To simplify what I tried to express, I am not hearing the vitality in his work that used to be there. I'm not particularly looking for "heavy" intensity, the "with knives" remark was flippant, I'm just looking for any intensity or vitality at all. Like that 'With Teeth' breakdown and '1 Ghosts I', which are both intense in a very different way to something like 'Eraser'.

I guess the basic premise here is I feel TR's work is more pedestrian / entertainment these days whereas it used to be more emotional / artistic. He can still reach that every now and then but most of the time it sounds like he's going through the motions and to me that cheapens NIN. But hey, it's his choice! I just wanted to register my dissatisfaction in case he sees it and goes "yeah maybe I could challenge myself to make something a bit more out of the mold"...

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

I claim DW is that Bill Pulsipher dude.....on a sidenote...He is almost 30 years into his career..Its impossible for ANY artist to keep up a high quality pace. Trents peak of music is subject to everyones opinion but I think a majority would say 1989-1999 was his pinnacle...There's no way the more recent albums are going to be as dark or tormented as the stuff from 94/99 etc. If it was, he'd be dead. No way Kurt was going to make In Utero 2 or In Utero 3 because there is no way he would have survived that mindset another few years. Robert Smith wasnt going to make albums as dark as Pornography because he would have killed himself if he stayed in that mindset (his own words) At least TR hasnt started embarrassing himself (have you checked the last few Depeche Mode albums? or the last couple Cure albums???)

To say he has become a joke and is making a fool of himself is a pretty bizarre statement. Year Zero was praised everywhere and was a vital album for someone who was 20 years into his career at that point..I get the arguments that WT was too commercial and Slip may have been rushed but they are still solid pieces of work. No they arent The Downward Spiral or Fragile part 2. But they are a fuck of a lot better than Exciter (and i love Depeche but jesus that album was utter rot). Its a weird time to be complaining TR lost his edge when this new EP has more edge than anything he's done since Year Zero. Burning Bright sounds like fucking Godflesh. If you posted this in 2013 after Everything came out, and he was on tour with Tension, then I could understand your point. The guy in fishnets who used to climb the fucking rafters screaming his head off, or covered in mud at Woodstock is doing Blink 182 style songs and has r&b singers onstage with him..To say he has lost his edge 2 weeks after he releases one of his most challenging and abrasive listens is odd timing....Dudes 30 years into his career and still making music that doesnt suck. thats an accomplishment in and of itself

[joplinpicasso]

I appreciate the response and clarity, @DW_. I just think there is more to edge or vitality than darkness. Like I said, I am very partial to their film scores and sense a great deal of vitality there. So, overall, I'm very happy with TR+AR's output in the past decade. With NIN specifically, the quantity of his output has probably felt most natural and authentic to TR. "Is my viciousness lo- losing ground?" he asked on "Discipline." I think that question itself is an emotional one to posit and I can identify with the question generically. I think to withhold ideas for five or six years and clinically curate at this point would be the disingenuous thing to do. So, there might be fewer gems overall on albums like YZ or HM for you, and I understand that. I just don't agree with the idea of 'sullying' the NIN name or any 'lack' of experimentation.

[buckaroo]

Does being dark, mysterious and depressed = inspired/quality? I love all nin music, but I think Year Zero is as good, if not better than TDS in terms of quality and effort. Also, as much as I love the live performances from the early days I will happily take the tighter more "normal" post The Fragile performances any day. The whole rolling around on the stage covered in corn starch breaking everything was cool for a moment, but I could not imagine that any longer... even during The Fragile it was a little too much.

[Khrz]

I claim DW is that Bill Pulsipher dude.....

Well the timeline of appreciation matches, alas nobody has been accused of sucking Reznor's cock yet, so no.

Does being dark, mysterious and depressed = inspired/quality?

You can't make art when being depressed, only periods of remission allow that, so no.

[neorev]

I love the album With Teeth...



So there's that.

[ultimatebdp]

Back to the point of the thread…

A few weeks in and I’m still loving this EP!! My only complaint is that it’s 5 songs, so I’m hoping there’s a follow up called “The Actual Events” that is longer!!

I don’t want to get into a debate on what albums were more relevant or “groundbreaking” as all of that depends on the listener’s experiences or personal state at the time of the release. All of NIN’s albums have connected with me at some point or another…whether it was right off the bat, or months/years later. Hell, I didn’t like Ghosts right off the bat, but after digesting that album for a while, I’ve grown to really love it and I’m still kicking myself for not getting the super-mega-deluxe edition the day it went on sale. I was dealing with a lot of drama when HM came out and I wanted a mean/heavy NIN album, so I didn’t dig it as much then. I’ve now come around on that one too and appreciate it more now that my life has less drama in it.
TR makes records based on where he is at that point of his life (mentally, emotionally, etc.) and if the music wasn’t relevant or interesting, none of us would still be on here commenting on it or beating him down about whatever he’s up to next. If the albums weren’t so diverse, we wouldn’t be saying “I loved this album, but not this other album.” I love the fact that right before there's a NIN release, I don't know if it's going to be a pretty piano album, heavy album, electronic album, or whatever happens to be turning him on at that moment.

I doubt Slayer’s and AC/DC’s message boards are this lively or have any kind of discussion like this…

[neorev]

This new EP was the first time I was psyched by an NIN release since With Teeth. There are tracks here and there that I enjoy, but With Teeth was the last album I can listen to from front to back.

And I love the new EP.

I also feel Ghosts had some amazing moments that could have became great full on tracks. Ghosts had that sound of experimentation and collaboration that's been missing. I'd love for Trent to bring more people in like he did back in the day because TDS and TF are more than just Trent. Many others worked on them and contributed to Trent's vision.

[witte]

Does being dark, mysterious and depressed = inspired/quality?

in case of trent, i'd say: yes, for sure.

[Jetvet1975]

How in the blue hell is NTAE "stale" and "safe"?? I really don't get that at all. There's references to all the different versions of NIN in there, but it's different at the same time. I respect your opinion and the points you're trying to make, but I think you're a little harsh on TR. Although, well written, I think your post is a little insulting and even "elitist hipster sounding" by saying TR has "no creativity", "no intensity" and that you're "embarassed for him"! I would totally disagree that NIN "died" in 2009;I think it was actually reborn...WT, although probably his most radio-friendly album, was a HUGE risk because of the backlash he might receive from his most ardent fans. It actually is one of my favorite albums. And although I didn't love The Slip or HM as much as WT or Year Zero, they all expanded on the sound TR had developed years before with NIN 1.0 (i.e. PHM, Broken, TDS, TF)...I think With Teeth started off NIN 2.0, which may not be for everybody, but is still creative and kick-ass if you ask me!

[neorev]

How in the blue hell is NTAE "stale" and "safe"?? I really don't get that at all. There's references to all the different versions of NIN in there, but it's different at the same time. I respect your opinion and the points you're trying to make, but I think you're a little harsh on TR. Although, well written, I think your post is a little insulting and even "elitist hipster sounding" by saying TR has "no creativity", "no intensity" and that you're "embarassed for him"! I would totally disagree that NIN "died" in 2009;I think it was actually reborn...WT, although probably his most radio-friendly album, was a HUGE risk because of the backlash he might receive from his most ardent fans. It actually is one of my favorite albums. And although I didn't love The Slip or HM as much as WT or Year Zero, they all expanded on the sound TR had developed years before with NIN 1.0 (i.e. PHM, Broken, TDS, TF)...I think With Teeth started off NIN 2.0, which may not be for everybody, but is still creative and kick-ass if you ask me!

Year Zero was the beginning of NIN 2.0 in my book.

[Khrz]

My initial reaction to The Fragile was "fuck, the guy's gone soft."
Only because I was already a huge fan did I pay enough attention to actually come to love it. It didn't change too much, it wasn't groundbreaking, I could hear the continuity from TDS and TPD, and it didn't feel particularly new at face value. It was just softer and safer.
So, whenever someone accuses Reznor of going soft and unchallenging, I remember that this is nothing new. Hell, I'm sure some people heard The Downward Spiral after being blown away by Broken and went "WTF is that poppy rock shit?".
If anything, TDS and TF are the oddities in NIN's discography. A thousand cooks on each album, featuring various musicians, a lot of input coming from everywhere... While the rest of the albums tend to follow that well-known formula : NIN is Trent Reznor.
I think we're getting what was always meant to be, and that the 94-99 era is the hiccup, the oddity.

Edit : I'm not saying Reznor didn't have a solid vision, I'm saying there was a lot more collaboration and input during this era. Also, I could totally be wrong. But it feels that for PHM and from WT on, all the hands on deck are ultimately Reznor's.

[Jetvet1975]

If I had to guess, I'd say people reacting this way are reacting to the fact that there really isn't anything on Events that is truly innovative. There really is nothing on the EP that we haven't heard someone else do--sure this is technically true for just about every artistic release in any medium, but occasionally an artist's influences are recombined by him or her in a way that certainly seems brand new. Is Not the Actual Events a new layer for Nine Inch Nails? Yeah, to a certain degree. Familiar elements for fans of Nine Inch Nails are peppered throughout a somewhat drone/shoegaze guitar haze. Something newish in the canon. But will the paradigm be upended by this release? Probably not. In that sense, it's "safe."

On the other hand, when The Fragile came out, there were some elements that a lot of folks hadn't heard out there before and there was a heck of a lot on those discs that we hadn't heard Trent Reznor try before. That was very unsafe. But again, we're thirty years into a guy's career: If he does something truly surprising, it would be almost a miracle. I mean something we've never heard him do before, in any way shape or form. It would be a miracle for a novelist, a film director, a painter. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, but it's not super likely, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Even if it's a fresh and invigorated release, it probably still won't feel like it used to--that's partially on us for being so familiar. So, yes, in this sense, Events, or indeed any new release from Nine Inch Nails, might be considered stale.

I was kidding above when I mentioned "Yiddish bluegrass jugband," or whatever I said, but in a sense, I'm not. We've heard so much from Trent over the years that, by now, it would be virtually impossibly to shock us on the level we were shocked by Broken, Spiral, or The Fragile. A lot of the positive reaction to With Teeth was "This is just Pretty Hate Machine done by the guy who did Downward Spiral." Which was a totally valid reaction to it. And Not the Actual Events is a version of Broken done by the guy who was in How to Destroy Angels and scored films with Atticus Ross and toured with Health.

But again. Does that mean I don't love it? Nope. I think it's great. And I think it's indicative of exciting times ahead.

Well said and explained. I still would disagree with the words "safe" and "stale" to describe NIN, but your explanation does explain that viewpoint a little better!

[nowimnothing]

If I had to guess, I'd say people reacting this way are reacting to the fact that there really isn't anything on Events that is truly innovative. There really is nothing on the EP that we haven't heard someone else do--sure this is technically true for just about every artistic release in any medium, but occasionally an artist's influences are recombined by him or her in a way that certainly seems brand new. Is Not the Actual Events a new layer for Nine Inch Nails? Yeah, to a certain degree. Familiar elements for fans of Nine Inch Nails are peppered throughout a somewhat drone/shoegaze guitar haze. Something newish in the canon. But will the paradigm be upended by this release? Probably not. In that sense, it's "safe."

On the other hand, when The Fragile came out, there were some elements that a lot of folks hadn't heard out there before and there was a heck of a lot on those discs that we hadn't heard Trent Reznor try before. That was very unsafe. But again, we're thirty years into a guy's career: If he does something truly surprising, it would be almost a miracle. I mean something we've never heard him do before, in any way shape or form. It would be a miracle for a novelist, a film director, a painter. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened before, but it's not super likely, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Even if it's a fresh and invigorated release, it probably still won't feel like it used to--that's partially on us for being so familiar. So, yes, in this sense, Events, or indeed any new release from Nine Inch Nails, might be considered stale.

I was kidding above when I mentioned "Yiddish bluegrass jugband," or whatever I said, but in a sense, I'm not. We've heard so much from Trent over the years that, by now, it would be virtually impossibly to shock us on the level we were shocked by Broken, Spiral, or The Fragile. A lot of the positive reaction to With Teeth was "This is just Pretty Hate Machine done by the guy who did Downward Spiral." Which was a totally valid reaction to it. And Not the Actual Events is a version of Broken done by the guy who was in How to Destroy Angels and scored films with Atticus Ross and toured with Health.

But again. Does that mean I don't love it? Nope. I think it's great. And I think it's indicative of exciting times ahead.

I agree with this 100%.

Fortunately for me, I have found a connection to all NIN Albums on a personal level, with the exception of PHM, YZ and NTAE.

It certainly does not mean I don't appreciate each of those albums for what they are though.

I thoroughly enjoy listening to NTAE, as I love 4 out of the 5 tracks, which, is a pretty good hit rate for any music releases these days. I am not going to dismiss it because I don't love every track, or because it is too short, or because it has recycled artwork. If anything, it makes me want to explore NTAE even more to try and better understandand and appreciate what it is that TR is attempting to convey.

Whilst it is perhaps surprising to some people that TR has gone for a *slightly* more inaccesible sound with NTAE there really is nothing on there that is fresh, original or vital.

But I am absolutely fine with that.

Innovation for the sake of innovation is less creative from my point of view. Maturity as an artist comes from understanding your boundaries and limitations and either trying to effectively work within them or try to break them and create a new mold.

I am a visual artist, and some of my releases are far more popular than others, and sometimes for reasons I couldn't have possibly predicted when making my art. Sometimes my art really hits people in their core and other times it doesn't. It is all purely down to each individuals response to it.

And that is my point. If art can affect even a small number people in a big way, then the artist's job is done.

And so it is with most artists. All of NIN's records are consistently strong enough to affect a variety of people on a deeply personal level, and that is one hell of an achievement unto itself. It won't work every time for everyone, sure. But then would you really want it to?

All a person has to do is take note of the amount of passion of opinion here on ETS to know that TR still has the creativity to deeply affect people.

[elevenism]

i was REALLY twisted during the time between TF and WT, and didn't run out and get WT like i have every other nin release, and didn't like it at first.
But it grew on me A LOT, especially as i tried to sober up.
Year Zero, good god it fucking blew me away and i still love it.
I feel the same way about The Slip.

In fact, the only release that i don't think is fucking amazing is ghosts, and i like ghosts ok.

but i'm a, you know, fanboy. i would probably get excited about ANYTHING that said Nine Inch Nails on it, so i'm not the best authority on these things.
I, like a lot of you, am 36 and got into nin when broken came out when i was like 12, and it STUCK.

[Halo Infinity]

Not The Actual Events really jumped at me right away from the start. It was a very pleasant surprise. She's Gone Away and Burning Bright (Field on Fire) became instant favorites and reminded me yet again as to why I became a fan in the first place. In some ways, those songs actually gave me some similar chills to likes of Wish and Reptile. Burning Bright (Field on Fire) also sounds like a very triumphant return to me, and would make an awesome opener at a show.

In the meantime, I'm just waiting for the proper physical component to arrive to my house for me to deal with. But overall, I'm loving it.

[Airbornefeline]

If I had only listened to it once I probably wouldn't be that excited about it either. Just like any other NIN release NTAE gets better and better with repeated listens and analysis of the lyrics. Though I guess if you were just completely bored by it on your first listen it may just not be for you. IMO this is the most interesting thing NIN has put out since YZ.

[Ryan]

I've only listened to it once, lol

[Wretchedest]

So... Am I supposed to have received the LP or physical component yet? Because I certainly have not.

[sick among the pure]

So... Am I supposed to have received the LP or physical component yet? Because I certainly have not.

Vinyl are all shipping this spring I believe. The physical component has not shipped yet, but is set to ship sometime this month.

[witte]

I've only listened to it once, lol

...because it hasn't an official halo number?

[perterje]

And although I didn't love The Slip or HM as much as WT or Year Zero, they all expanded on the sound TR had developed years before with NIN 1.0 (i.e. PHM, Broken, TDS, TF)...

It's interesting how we all seem to think of NIN as two versions: before and after TF. Those 4 first releases were so vastly different from each other, it seems almost ignorant to suggest that the records belonging to NIN 2.0 or later is somehow a departure in any way. The NIN "style" changes with every release today, just as it did in 89-99. It's very ok not to like the later works and NTAE, but I don't think it's ok to suggest it's because Trent and Atticus have lost something that earlier incarnations of NIN had plenty of.

And I certainly think it's questionable to be very vocal about not liking it on a forum like this. I've been disappointed with the latest releases of a couple of my favorite artists, but that means I simply don't go to those forums and discuss how disappointed I am. I'm here on ETS instead.

I LOVED Radiohead's "The King of Limbs" and played it NONSTOP for months, after first listen, and all I hear on ETS about it is bitching.

I love TKOL! It's my favorite Radiohead record.

[r_z]

How in the hell can it be 'questionable' to express critical feelings on a fan forum?

Freedom of speech aside, I feel getting confronted with contrary opionions, thus having to digest 'em or at least thinking about them, is really fucking important.

[perterje]

How in the hell can it be 'questionable' to express critical feelings on a fan forum?

I simply feel it's better to not say anything at all, but that's just my opinion.

[Volband]

I agree with this 100%.

Fortunately for me, I have found a connection to all NIN Albums on a personal level, with the exception of PHM, YZ and NTAE.

Whaaat? Be 17. Be horny. Be dumped. Congratulations, you've just embraced PHM

[nowimnothing]

Whaaat? Be 17. Be horny. Be dumped. Congratulations, you've just embraced PHM

I am not saying it doesn't have value or merit. And in all seriousness, I actually first heard PHM when I was 17 (I am 37 now).

And incidently, I lost my virginity listening to PHM and Antichrist Superstar on vinyl that very year.

But did PHM truly hit me in my overly excitable gibbly bits like Broken, TDS and TF did? No. Not even close. But it certainly helped to provide some very good memories!

[snaapz]

'Burning Bright (Field on fire)' just might be one of the most loaded and important Nine Inch Nails I've ever listened. This track and EP is off the wall.


Burning question (no pun intended) when did TR write'Burning Bright (Field on fire)' (lyrics)? I would really like to know if this is current, old journal or not an actual thing. The fact that 'BB' follows 'TIOY' makes me wonder if he has given in or found peace with who he is, I can't tell.


Why can't there be a AMA about the music and not his relationship with Manson and the Tapeworm ETA...


I mean what does all of this have to do with? What's the battle... is it us and our image of him that he hates? Is is the dark soul inside of him that makes him think thoughts he doesn't want to think or thoughts we want him to think? Is this all just a general struggle all people deal with in secrecy? Even people who seem happy?


After 20 years of being a follower I'd love to know.


P.S. Who is "she"? Is she the one TR tries to lock up and ignore?

[snaapz]

P.S.S. This EP is fucking amazing and surprising, I can't believe what he is telling us and it's a bit sad to be honest. If I'm interpreting it correctly.

[Khrz]

How in the hell can it be 'questionable' to express critical feelings on a fan forum?

Freedom of speech aside, I feel getting confronted with contrary opionions, thus having to digest 'em or at least thinking about them, is really fucking important.

Well, there's "WT and HM are weak ass records" opinion, and then there's "nothing has been remotely good since' 99" opinion.
Placed in the context of a fan forum, the former is perfectly valid, and the latter completely our of place, in my opinion.
There's a LOT of people who consider NIN to be shit, for a LOT of reasons. Past a certain point, there's no bridge to build anymore that would warrant a discussion, you need some sort of common ground for an actual dialogue to take place.
Just my opinion of course.

[implanted_microchip]

It's interesting how we all seem to think of NIN as two versions: before and after TF. Those 4 first releases were so vastly different from each other, it seems almost ignorant to suggest that the records belonging to NIN 2.0 or later is somehow a departure in any way. The NIN "style" changes with every release today, just as it did in 89-99.

Well hey so it's been a while and it's a new year now so here I go with another one of my typical ETS motherfuckers of a post, apologies for any incoherence or rambling to begin with since these things are always just reactionary first-drafts but away we go --

I think there's a few different reasons that are all pretty valid in separating those periods -- first and foremost, from a strictly psychological standpoint, pre- and post-new millennium has a lot of mental weight and meaning to people. It's a little silly, I know, but it's also very true.

Another is this: obsessive perfectionist Reznor ceased to exist a little while after that time period. I'd personally stretch it and extend it out to With_Teeth, which still had that guy slaving over everything and desperate to "get it right" and worrying that he was fucking it all up the whole time, but even then, the level of masochism seemed to change. The guy who was making everything from PHM through to The Fragile was so intensely obsessed with not messing it all up that he pretty much made himself go crazy for a while and totally overextended and exhausted himself in every single possible way because of that.

He's talked a lot about making things like TDS and TF and staring at an empty sheet of music and feeling like he had to pen down the best fucking composition in the world and that nothing less would be acceptable. It's ridiculous, but you can hear that amount of concern, worry and effort filtered through that raw wall of pure talent the guy's got when you listen to those records -- they all seem horrendously slaved over, and something like TDS is just layer after layer after layer until they all blur into one massive monolithic thing and each layer sounds like its own whole idea that he worked on as long as most would work on an entire song. TF feels so heavy and like there's such a framework and so much weight to it all that it could collapse in on itself for any moment and it's beautiful for that. There's a degree of "why can't I get this exactly fucking right" to it all that is obsessive, off-putting, endearing, disturbing and amazing all at once that you just aren't going to hear when you listen to The Slip.

And then of course there's the obvious "obvious" answer here, which is that, well, we're talking pre- and post-sobriety Trent. He's talked plenty about it changing his approach so I don't feel wrong to comment on it as a separating factor here. It does have an impact in approach and mindset and overall functionality. The messy, frantic, frenetic and unhinged substance-fueled mind-losing business of PHM-TF (and there's a really audible trajectory there, too; PHM is beginning to flirt with it all, Broken commits, TDS explores and TF concludes) gets lost completely and instead we get a very precise, tight and generally to-the-point artist afterward. To go from The Fragile, where there's tons of instrumentals and flourishes and long and flowing songs and sidetracks and sidepaths that lead to nowhere and dead ends and remnants of other songs and unfinished business and differences across formats to With_Teeth where it's just one disc of straightforward, immediately-hitting songs is quite the changeover, and he's never really returned to that expansive, maddening scope and scale again since. Year Zero came close but largely due to the concept and ARG around it and the album itself still never gets as "out there" and has that cleaner, more precise sound and feel to it.

Also, production-wise, you can definitely spot when they got their hands on things like Garage Band and Pro-Tools. There's a real sound signature that you can notice and Ross' introduction into the fold definitely had a profound effect on the overall ball of wax. I could ramble more about it but I'd rather leave that to people better versed in actual music production that me or I'm going to reveal a lot of my blind spots here.

Every era has its differences, and I've never heard it argued that PHM sounds like Broken or something along those lines, but it's very clear that the artist himself and in turn the project itself took a very different turn and approach to the machine it's always been fighting after The Fragile period, and it's never gone back to that since. It's not inherently a good or a bad thing, just a shift, a change, a natural evolution that comes with being alive for a while and I personally think it's a great one -- nobody could keep doing what he'd been going at and not totally failed and lost the steam at some point -- and nobody doing what he was going for could have done something like The Social Network soundtrack or Ghosts I-IV.

The overall artistic approach definitely had a wide change and there's nothing wrong with that. Not the Actual Events feels a lot like that modern artist really tapping into their younger ideals for sound and production and trying to explore those spaces with their new outlooks, approaches and habits as an artist and I love that about it. It feels like delivery on the promise Hesitation Marks was making when it was announced.