Ripe

[Ryan]

Why do you all think Trent nixed the (With Decay) part of this from the vinyl version? I mean, he added The New Flesh and 10 Miles High to the vinyl version, yet got rid of the really atmospheric ending of the entire record from the vinyl version. Why he do dis? It makey no sense to me.

[Ryan]

Regarding the concept of the record, he also said that it starts somewhat damaged and ends where it began - i.e. Ripe (With Decay), which makes it all the more confusing really.

[Ryan]

To quote myself from the Fragile reissue thread -

I've never understood why Trent chopped the end and finished with vinyl version just as "Ripe". The With Decay part makes the song and makes the record make so much more sense in context of everything. If anything, he should have chopped off the silly Starfuckers.

[botley]

It must be a deliberate move. There was more than enough room on that side of the record to include the complete ending.

Maybe TR was trying to approximate one of those records with a "lock groove" where you have to physically lift the stylus off to make it stop?

[BenAkenobi]

I'm taking a wild guess here, so maybe some of the particularly weird sounds from "decay" part didn't sound OK on vinyl.

[sheepdean]

It must be a deliberate move. There was more than enough room on that side of the record to include the complete ending.

Maybe TR was trying to approximate one of those records with a "lock groove" where you have to physically lift the stylus off to make it stop?

That costs literally nothing to do in vinyl manufacture (well, maybe a few pennies if the engineer is paid by the minute), so if he wanted to do that, he could have

[botley]

That costs literally nothing to do in vinyl manufacture (well, maybe a few pennies if the engineer is paid by the minute), so if he wanted to do that, he could have

To get a loop to vamp in a musically sensible way, precisely to the width of the record? No way! That is insanely difficult, I asked a cutting engineer here in town about it (Noah Mintz of the Lacquer Channel mastering facility). I know that Coil and bands like that in the past have put locked grooves in the middle of their records, weird shit like that to deliberately fuck with the listener and subvert musical expectations, but if you want to achieve that specific effect (a one-measure guitar pattern looping constantly at the end of a song), it may take dozens of tries to cut it right AND you also have to start over and re-cut the entire side each time you make a mistake.

When they re-mastered the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper album for vinyl a couple of years ago, the mastering engineers at Abbey Road Studios had to take several tries to re-make the nonsense chatter locked groove at the end of the album just so it was the same as people remember it being from the original... and that's not even a traditional musical phrase length, it's just gibberish voices for a couple of seconds.

[botley]

Also, it just occurred to me that the groove cannot be longer than one rotation of the record, as locked grooves are complete circles not "spirals back to the previous rotation" (it's impossible to make the needle jump backwards like that). There are 33.333 rotations per minute on an LP, so if your loop is longer than 1.8 seconds (which the guitar figure in "Ripe" definitely is), it would not physically fit.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that TR wanted to do the locked groove but got that exact answer back from the engineer, and so they just faked it with the long fade-out.

[sheepdean]

To get a loop to vamp in a musically sensible way, precisely to the width of the record? No way! That is insanely difficult, I asked a cutting engineer here in town about it (Noah Mintz of the Lacquer Channel mastering facility). I know that Coil and bands like that in the past have put locked grooves in the middle of their records, weird shit like that to deliberately fuck with the listener and subvert musical expectations, but if you want to achieve that specific effect (a one-measure guitar pattern looping constantly at the end of a song), it may take dozens of tries to cut it right AND you also have to start over and re-cut the entire side each time you make a mistake.

When they re-mastered the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper album for vinyl a couple of years ago, the mastering engineers at Abbey Road Studios had to take several tries to re-make the nonsense chatter locked groove at the end of the album just so it was the same as people remember it being from the original... and that's not even a traditional musical phrase length, it's just gibberish voices for a couple of seconds.

I didn't say it was easy, but to actually make it is often a fairly fast process (especially with modern digital methods, so you can just create a digital track of the exact needed length). The Beatles' issue is probably more related to the non-audible sounds on that record. Remember that once it's cut, you can make thousands of copies, so potentially a couple of hours' work would add nothing to manufacture time.

But then, Trent's never cared much for vinyl specialities has he? Never a coloured record, doesn't do half speed cutting (or 45RPM for albums), has even done a picture disc once, which is generally a good sign of someone who doesn't care about vinyl's sound vs its collectibility.

[sheepdean]

Also, it just occurred to me that the groove cannot be longer than one rotation of the record, as locked grooves are complete circles not "spirals back to the previous rotation" (it's impossible to make the needle jump backwards like that). There are 33.333 rotations per minute on an LP, so if your loop is longer than 1.8 seconds (which the guitar figure in "Ripe" definitely is), it would not physically fit.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that TR wanted to do the locked groove but got that exact answer back from the engineer, and so they just faked it with the long fade-out.

That's possible - though it's also possible it simply ran too long

[botley]

^ Again, side six is the shortest by far on The Fragile LP, there was plenty of room to include the whole track if they wanted to and still have room to spare.

I didn't say it was easy, but to actually make it is often a fairly fast process (especially with modern digital methods, so you can just create a digital track of the exact needed length). The Beatles' issue is probably more related to the non-audible sounds on that record.

Nope, the length of the loop was the only problem. Even if you cut from a digital file with the exactly right length of loop (which I believe the Beatles engineers used, for the stereo version of the album anyway) the cutting lathe operates at a motor controlled speed, subject to slight fluctuations, and it has to cut the whole side without stopping from start to end — the timing of the lock therefore has to be done by hand, so it starts and ends in the right place. This takes practice and probably several discarded mother stampers, one extra for every abortive attempt (each of which are far more expensive to make than any single copy pressed from one is). Not a huge added expense but not insignificant considering you're already paying the engineer extra to master a triple LP.

[seasonsinthesky]

What's funniest about the locked groove thing is that a "damaged" (i.e. musically imperfect or even nonsensical) locked groove would have easily fit the concept of the album.

[Ryan]

Trent, explain yourself!

[Ryan]

@BenAkenobi - you face palmed me. Explain yourself!

[BenAkenobi]

You, dear sir, have expressed direct expectation of reaction from none other than TR on the forum not affiliated with TR and in my humble opinion that is something worth a little facepalming, that's all.

[Ryan]

Well played.