General Police Misconduct aka Murdering Black People

[Sarah K]

Yeah, fuck that. I would resist if I was being arrested for no reason, too.

There was a video not long ago of a man on the subway who got arrested because he fell asleep.

The problem isn't people resisting. The problem is police not being properly trained on how to do their jobs. Because guess what? They wouldn't be resisting if the police were doing their jobs correctly.

When people remove the blame from where it belongs - the woefully under-trained police force, and shift it to the victims, they are participating in victim blaming. It's stupid and wrong. A person shouldn't have to go to court because someone else isn't capable of doing their job correctly. I really don't understand how anyone can advocate for Stop and Frisk. It blows my fucking mind.

[Sarah K]

Also, I wonder if there will ever be time where we oh, I dunno... Attempt to assist people with sever mental disorders, instead of lock them away?

http://gothamist.com/2014/09/11/rike...oner_death.php

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/11/ny...eath.html?_r=0

[tony.parente]

Yeah, fuck that. I would resist if I was being arrested for no reason, too.

All resisting arrest is going to do is put your well being/any chance at fighting the case in jeopardy IMO

If you're getting arrested for no reason and you AND the cop knows you're right, resisting is just going to give them even more of an excuse to make sure you have a bad time. Gotta protect yourself the best you can.

[Sarah K]

Stop blaming the victims, and advocate for a higher level of training for the people who are supposed to be protecting us.

Continuing to give cops free reign to do whatever they want isn't going to fix anything. It hasn't worked out yet, so I don't see that changing any time soon. They need to be properly trained, and show competence for making decisions under pressure.

The court systems in this country are NOTORIOUSLY corrupt, and are EXTREMELY lenient when it comes to current or former cops.

[tony.parente]

I am absolutely not blaming the victims, if anything I was defending them and supporting their ability to fight against corrupt police activities. If you're stopped for walking while black, get arrested for bullshit trumped up charges and while getting cuffed you twist and run...you're gunna have a hard time fighting the case. That's really all I was trying to get across.

[Deepvoid]

New video emerged in the Brown case. CNN exclusive.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/fer...html?hpt=hp_t1

[Swykk]

I saw this earlier. CNN are drawing lots of conclusions from this, but the two guys who were by the truck both said he had his hands up. The other guy interviewed later, who lived nearby, didn't say that but also wasn't as close and admitted he didn't get outside in time to see everything.
I still think this was a murder by cop, as I've said from the start, and the evidence thus far supports as much. In a place KNOWN for racist dealings/good ol cops club, Brown mouths off after being told by Wilson to get out of the street (or whatever he said), Brown takes off after being pursued/told to stop FROM WILSON'S CAR, Wilson hunts down Brown and ultimately kills him. Maybe there was an altercation in between but I doubt it because the police would've eagerly released that info if it had actually happened. You don't try and apprehend a suspect (and what was he suspected of? Being a smart ass isn't a crime) from your car! The supposed "robbery" does not factor in here (boy did that fall apart fast).
I've been watching this thread but sort of holding out for more actual evidence to come out. I'm concerned, as are others, that this will become another case where the cop gets away clean (Rodney King, as @allegro mentioned before).

[DigitalChaos]

Stop blaming the victims, and advocate for a higher level of training for the people who are supposed to be protecting us.

Continuing to give cops free reign to do whatever they want isn't going to fix anything. It hasn't worked out yet, so I don't see that changing any time soon. They need to be properly trained, and show competence for making decisions under pressure.

The court systems in this country are NOTORIOUSLY corrupt, and are EXTREMELY lenient when it comes to current or former cops.

How are you going to advocate for better training when the general population isn't aware of their basic rights and basic legal protections? That comes first. THEN people will realize how many rights are being violated. THEN they will ask for cops to fix their shit.

As for the corrupt court situation, that is why people (especially people of color) should record every police interaction with video. There is an increasing amount of court cases that have been swayed because of video, even if it is video of the cop forcing them to stop (infringement on 1st amendment). And if you REALLY want to help change things, record every police situation you happen to see. The more common this becomes, the less corrupt shit they will get away with.

So yes, learn you damn rights! Learn that you don't resist arrest (except for very very specific situations.. usually involving threat to life) and the place to resist an arrest is in court.

[allegro]

How are you going to advocate for better training when the general population isn't aware of their basic rights and basic legal protections? That comes first. THEN people will realize how many rights are being violated. THEN they will ask for cops to fix their shit.

As for the corrupt court situation, that is why people (especially people of color) should record every police interaction with video. There is an increasing amount of court cases that have been swayed because of video, even if it is video of the cop forcing them to stop (infringement on 1st amendment). And if you REALLY want to help change things, record every police situation you happen to see. The more common this becomes, the less corrupt shit they will get away with.

So yes, learn you damn rights! Learn that you don't resist arrest (except for very very specific situations.. usually involving threat to life) and the place to resist an arrest is in court.

Court. Right. There's a novel concept. A lot of these arrested people are waiting forever in jail for an arraignment date. There are currently 300 people in Cook Count Jail who've been waiting five years for a trial. So much for their constitutional right to a speedy trial. Court. Such a nice white liberal utopia idea of criminal law. Oh and God forbid you're broke and need a public defender and can't afford the fee. But there's always court. They'll help you. Just let the master put the chains on you and take you up town, boy. Fighting it will just make it harder on ya, boy.

Here's a novel concept: Don't arrest without probable cause. This won't waste millions in taxpayer dollars, it won't violate people's civil rights, and it won't bog down the court system and the jail system with a bunch of useless shit.

[DigitalChaos]

Court. Right. There's a novel concept. A lot of these arrested people are waiting forever in jail for an arraignment date. There are currently 300 people in Cook Count Jail who've been waiting five years for a trial. So much for their constitutional right to a speedy trial. Court. Such a nice white liberal utopia idea of criminal law. Oh and God forbid you're broke and need a public defender and can't afford the fee. But there's always court. They'll help you. Just let the master put the chains on you and take you up town, boy. Fighting it will just make it harder on ya, boy.

Here's a novel concept: Don't arrest without probable cause. This won't waste millions in taxpayer dollars, it won't violate people's civil rights, and it won't bog down the court system and the jail system with a bunch of useless shit.

So who is going to tell them that if all the tax payers are too uninformed to do it?

What does resisting arrest do to help the situation?

[Swykk]

@DigitalChaos I see your point but @allegro is more correct. You cannot depend on the court system anymore, if there was even a time where we could. As for recording every police interaction? I'm totally with you on that one.

There needs to be a change, an overhaul, in how we select, train and monitor police.

[DigitalChaos]

@DigitalChaos I see your point but @allegro is more correct. You cannot depend on the court system anymore, if there was even a time where we could. As for recording every police interaction? I'm totally with you on that one.

There needs to be a change, an overhaul, in how we select, train and monitor police.

You know what is better than court? Not going there because you didn't give up your rights. I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people waiting in jail are there because they incriminated themselves by failing to exercise things as basic as their 4th and 5th amendment rights.

[DigitalChaos]

There needs to be a change, an overhaul, in how we select, train and monitor police.

I am ALL about this. But I've been wanting this for fucking ever. Nobody gives a shit. This was predominantly a "silly libertarian" cause until ferguson. Everyone will quickly forget and go back to the same old bullshit. Most already have.

Ask anyone who suddenly started caring about the police to articulate a reason why the situation is a problem and what they want to see changed. Most can't produce anything close to accurate. If you think Ferguson is enough to open everyone's eyes enough to prompt change, I'd love to hear your reasoning.

[DigitalChaos]

Speaking of which, there was this awesome video that was making the rounds back on July 4 weekend about how some of us wish police stops (specifically boarder checkpoints) would go.
I think those in this thread will enjoy it

[Swykk]

I think if we've learned anything, it's that most don't give a fuck unless it's a reality show or game. There was (and continues to be) a very real dumbing down/cater to the lowest common denominator of people culture in this country combined with constant fear bombardment by the media.
But here is the biggest problem:
It kind of doesn't even matter if we want changes made, there's no reason for them to change a thing. Some think gun rights are of grave importance so "we can defend ourselves when the government (or anything) goes too far!" And I'm not the first one to say this but facts are, they have drones and tanks, for starters. They have more and better guns. Police have tanks now! Why?! Not to protect us. The corporations that run this country now and yes, it is an oligarchy, are lots of awful things but they're not stupid. They don't want us to even think about holding them accountable. So they bought Congress, among other entities.
We don't get to win. It's depressing.
You can't even work within the system anymore to make it better. Even if the smarter folks had the numbers, and they don't, they're outspent before it even gets to a point where they're outgunned as well.
Here's another scenario, say none of the above is true (cue up a Tony or Satyr post I won't read). Very very few with the brains, conscience, and stable mental health want to be cops! Doing the job properly is tough, no doubt and the pay isn't enough to justify it in most places, so it's like the military where it's predominantly people who didn't do well in high school, couldn't or didn't want to go to college, come from a lower economic class, not the most even tempered/level headed people. Those who end up in higher positions still are mostly pushing fucking quotas (yes, they do in fact exist) to gain the funding they want/need.
I don't have answers...but goddammit I still care and get pissed at these things.

[allegro]

You know what is better than court? Not going there because you didn't give up your rights. I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of people waiting in jail are there because they incriminated themselves by failing to exercise things as basic as their 4th and 5th amendment rights.

oh, really?. Interesting. Just that simple, eh?. Gee, justice always prevails, Andy. Now, THIS kid was smart, Opie!

[DigitalChaos]

oh, really?. Interesting. Just that simple, eh?. Gee, justice always prevails, Andy. Now, THIS kid was smart, Opie!

None of this disproves what you quoted. I never once said that cops aren't corrupt and that enforcement isn't broken. I said fixing it is not possible with an uninformed populace. You damn well know that the majority of people get themselves in trouble by not knowing their rights. That's not the kind of populace that makes for an educated democracy (yet another liberal idea to add to your list).

What do you get when you can't have a healthy democracy?

[DigitalChaos]

I think if we've learned anything, it's that most don't give a fuck unless it's a reality show or game. There was (and continues to be) a very real dumbing down/cater to the lowest common denominator of people culture in this country combined with constant fear bombardment by the media.
But here is the biggest problem:
It kind of doesn't even matter if we want changes made, there's no reason for them to change a thing. Some think gun rights are of grave importance so "we can defend ourselves when the government (or anything) goes too far!" And I'm not the first one to say this but facts are, they have drones and tanks, for starters. They have more and better guns. Police have tanks now! Why?! Not to protect us. The corporations that run this country now and yes, it is an oligarchy, are lots of awful things but they're not stupid. They don't want us to even think about holding them accountable. So they bought Congress, among other entities.
We don't get to win. It's depressing.
You can't even work within the system anymore to make it better. Even if the smarter folks had the numbers, and they don't, they're outspent before it even gets to a point where they're outgunned as well.
Here's another scenario, say none of the above is true (cue up a Tony or Satyr post I won't read). Very very few with the brains, conscience, and stable mental health want to be cops! Doing the job properly is tough, no doubt and the pay isn't enough to justify it in most places, so it's like the military where it's predominantly people who didn't do well in high school, couldn't or didn't want to go to college, come from a lower economic class, not the most even tempered/level headed people. Those who end up in higher positions still are mostly pushing fucking quotas (yes, they do in fact exist) to gain the funding they want/need.
I don't have answers...but goddammit I still care and get pissed at these things.

Guns vs tanks thing has been covered many times. It's just wrong. Someone with a basic understanding of war history or tactics will know this. Hell, just look at how long we have been failing to deal with the severely outgunned al quaeda.

I disagree that people have as little power over their local government as they do over federal. Local municipalities are even closer and even more susceptible to the citizen demands. When they get resources from the fed, that's when it starts fucking things over. But, you have to use that power. You have to vote. You have to participate in your local meetings. How many people sitting in jail have ever done that? How many people who only bitch about police after ferguson have done that? They don't. They just keep paying their taxes and letting someone else figure it out. We are now a country of "someone else will figure it out"

[allegro]

None of this disproves what you quoted. I never once said that cops aren't corrupt and that enforcement isn't broken. I said fixing it is not possible with an uninformed populace. You damn well know that the majority of people get themselves in trouble by not knowing their rights.

No, you're not living in the same world with the same criminal court system as me. You are naive and think people who are informed of their rights magically get better court treatment. And that's a fucking load of shit. You obviously know nothing but internet words related to the criminal court system; you know zero about the reality. Your cavalier, whitebread comment about the men rotting in jail waiting for trial is naive and stupid. Those men are rotting in jail due to BACKLOG, TOO MANY CASES, NOT ENOUGH PUBLIC DEFENDERS, LOST PAPERWORK, RED TAPE, AND PUBLIC APATHY BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT RICH OR IMPORTANT. Jailhouse lawyers (inmates who've studied up on the law) probably told them all about their rights, but that don't fucking help them. And white uppermiddle class asses like you blaming the inmates for "not knowing their rights" (lol) ain't helping, either. The City, the public, the taxpayers, the POPULACE here knows about it. The Cook County President has stated it's deplorable and needs to be fixed. The ACLU and human rights watch groups have stepped in because this is a violation of constitutional and civil rights. Yet, there it remains. Overcrowding, a log-jammed overtaxed system. Created by TOO MANY ARRESTS. And you think they GOT in jail simply by giving up their rights by resisting arrest? You are living in a whitebread alternative universe.

[allegro]

I suggest you actually READ THESE ARTICLES. ALL OF THEM.


http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/2...e-inmates.html

http://www.wbez.org/news/cook-county...ck-jail-108758

http://www.illinoisherald.com/articl...-crisis-point/

http://www.suffredin.org/news/newsit...newsitemid=515

http://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago/c...t?oid=12195364

[Satyr]

I suggest you actually READ THESE ARTICLES. ALL OF THEM.


http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/2...e-inmates.html

http://www.wbez.org/news/cook-county...ck-jail-108758

http://www.illinoisherald.com/articl...-crisis-point/

http://www.suffredin.org/news/newsit...newsitemid=515

http://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago/c...t?oid=12195364

Also watch this video!

[allegro]

Also watch this video!

Lol that's funny. And true.

[DigitalChaos]

No, you're not living in the same world with the same criminal court system as me. You are naive and think people who are informed of their rights magically get better court treatment. And that's a fucking load of shit. You obviously know nothing but internet words related to the criminal court system; you know zero about the reality. Your cavalier, whitebread comment about the men rotting in jail waiting for trial is naive and stupid. Those men are rotting in jail due to BACKLOG, TOO MANY CASES, NOT ENOUGH PUBLIC DEFENDERS, LOST PAPERWORK, RED TAPE, AND PUBLIC APATHY BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT RICH OR IMPORTANT. Jailhouse lawyers (inmates who've studied up on the law) probably told them all about their rights, but that don't fucking help them. And white uppermiddle class asses like you blaming the inmates for "not knowing their rights" (lol) ain't helping, either. The City, the public, the taxpayers, the POPULACE here knows about it. The Cook County President has stated it's deplorable and needs to be fixed. The ACLU and human rights watch groups have stepped in because this is a violation of constitutional and civil rights. Yet, there it remains. Overcrowding, a log-jammed overtaxed system. Created by TOO MANY ARRESTS. And you think they GOT in jail simply by giving up their rights by resisting arrest? You are living in a whitebread alternative universe.

No shit it's not going to help people who are already arrested. The point is to not get arrested in the first place.

Also, I'm pretty sure Cook County isn't representative of the entire country. EVERYTHING about Chicago is broken and corrupt as fuck. Again, knowing your rights is going to have limited impact against a corrupt system.

I'm not saying Chicago doesn't exist. I'm not saying various types of corruption don't exist in various PD's across the country. I'm saying people aren't educated enough about fundamental rights that are taught in middleschool Civics classes. This was part of the larger picture of people not even realizing that most PD's across the country attempt to get you to violate your own rights, they are becoming excessively militarized, etc.

For example, look at the Boston police presence when they were searching for the bombers. Heavily armed and searching every house without a warrant. Most of the citizens let them in because they felt they had to. It was later revealed that there were many examples of searches without consent. Of the entire country watching, VERY few people had issues with this. It was the same kind of mentality we saw in this country immediately after 9/11. Those that did have issues with it were marginalized as tin foil at types. It should be an embarrassment that people like Alex Jones were the leading media commentary on that.

[DigitalChaos]

Another problem that has yet to be discussed here is the growing practice of civil forfeiture. Your shit can legally be taken even though you haven't been charged with a crime.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...unchecked.html

[allegro]

No shit it's not going to help people who are already arrested. The point is to not get arrested in the first place.

Also, I'm pretty sure Cook County isn't representative of the entire country. EVERYTHING about Chicago is broken and corrupt as fuck. Again, knowing your rights is going to have limited impact against a corrupt system.

OR A RACIST SYSTEM. STOP AND FRISK (NY, not Chicago, which started this conversation) is based on RACIAL PROFILING, NOT PROBABLE CAUSE. Often, they'll arrest just to book 'em, print 'em, and get 'em "in the system" WITH NO PROBABLE CAUSE. Rights? What rights? Now they have an arrest record. Sometimes, the cops will say "STOP RESISTING" when there is zero resisting happening. How are you "pretty sure" that Cook County is so special? Like how Ferguson is so special? The problem IN THIS COUNTRY is not just corruption:

"As I've said before, the jail is the intersection of racism and poverty."—Cook County board president Toni Preckwinkle

Criminal courts and jails are overtaxed across this country. How much time have you spent in a major criminal court system? A medium one? Did you read that NPR article I linked, above, about the public defender program problems?

[DigitalChaos]

OR A RACIST SYSTEM. STOP AND FRISK (which started this conversation) is based on RACIAL PROFILING, NOT PROBABLE CAUSE. Often, they'll arrest just to book 'em, print 'em, and get 'em "in the system" WITH NO PROBABLE CAUSE. Rights? What rights? Now they have an arrest record. Sometimes, the cops will say "STOP RESISTING" when there is zero resisting happening. How are you "pretty sure" that Cook County is so special? Like how Ferguson is so special? Criminal courts and jails are overtaxed across this country. How much time have you spent in a major criminal court system? A medium one? Did you read that NPR article I linked, above, about the public defender program problems?

Stop And Frisk is horrible and it has a lot of pissed off people fighting it. But weren't you actually justifying (a few weeks ago) that kind of rights infringement as a means to clean up a city? I think it was specific to NY a few decades ago.

I'm not seeing an NPR article on my mobile client. I was bitching about how under respected and under paid public defenders were a few months ago. That's just wrong considering how they are a huge pillar of our justice system. That's ANOTHER thing that very few people recognize and therefore we won't see any change.

[allegro]

I don't disagree that the situation in Boston post-marathon bombing was ridiculous. But I mentioned that about 8 pages ago, and many citizens DID complain. Just like many citizens complain about the draconian TSA (I *hate* them) but are generally helpess to do anything about it without being seen as ISIS members because so many Americans drank the theater of bullshit security Kool Aid.

[allegro]

Public defender - you quoted my post in your post #430. But you didn't read my link.

Stop and Frisk worked in the 70s when NYC was a fucking cesspool of crime everywhere. You had probable cause, then, 'cause 80% of the people on the streets were criminals. It ain't the fucking 70s, anymore.

[DigitalChaos]

@Swykk - if people can prompt this kind of thing at the national level, they sure can do it at the more local levels: http://www.hbindependent.com/news/la...,5518981.story
It'll be difficult in the areas that have handed over many of their rights to the government and let the power corrupt and grow (Chicago, NYC, LA, Oakland, etc) but that is a different, yet similar, issue.

[DigitalChaos]

Public defender - you quoted my post in your post #430. But you didn't read my link.

Oh, from yesterday. Yea, it connects to the underfunding problem. I did not know the specifics listed in that article, but I think better funding would still fix it. Stop gearing up police and instead give resources to the public defenders.
One of the other potential benefits of increasing pay for them is that it costs the state more every time they prosecute people. MAYBE it will lead to a reduction in prosecutions that do nothing to benefit the tax payers. The way things are going, it would just result in more backlog though.