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Thread: Trump 2017: Year Zero

  1. #1621
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    Ok... if we're going to take a detour to discuss Ross Ulbricht...

    1. By setting up and running the Silk Road, he created a new technology-based drug networking service, empowering its larger dealers to massively increase their business to the degree to which they could be perceived as functioning on par with cartels.

    2. The evidence suggesting that he had attempted to contract the murders of at least five people was presented in court. It was removed from the indictment, but still factored into the sentence. From the court transcript:

    "The first factual finding relates to the direct abuse of violence. Under 2D1.1 (b) (2) there would be a two-level upward offense level adjustment for the directed use of violence. Because it is contested, the Court must make appropriate factual findings if it is to include it. The standard by which I do that is by a preponderance of the evidence. Ulbricht's directed violence here is and relates to the murders for hire which he is alleged to have commissioned and paid for. The Court must determine whether these allegations have been demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence and I find that there is ample and unambiguous evidence that Ulbricht commissioned five murders as part of his efforts to protect his criminal enterprise, and that he paid for those murders. There is no evidence that he was role-playing.

    The Court finds that the evidence is clear and unambiguous and it far exceeds the necessary preponderance findings, that Ulbricht believed he was paying for murders of those he wanted eliminated, and that he believed they had in fact been murdered. He was told his first victim had a wife and several children. That fact was known to Ulbricht and it is never mentioned by him in connection with his consideration of the murder...

    He commissioned the hits, there is no discussion of hypotheticals, he paid actual funds. He paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, which were, in fact, paid...

    That there had been no confirmation of any of the deaths does not eliminate the fact that he directed violence and directed the use of violence."


    3. One of those contracts was spoofed entrapment from law enforcement. If you don't know enough about your hired hitman to know that he's an undercover agent, then you don't know enough about them to know what they're going to do with your commands... whether they'll take the money and run or whether the targeted individual will just wind up dead. Either way, it's pretty damning evidence that he was contracting hits.

    4. Ulbricht was sent faked "proof of death" photos.

    5. Do you honestly believe he is innocent of that point, or is your consideration on this case concerned solely in the extremity of the sentence? Is there something you like about this guy that fuels your anger over his sentence? Is there something to this story related to bit coins and Tor-type browsers that plays a role in your interest? Is it related to the fact that the FBI's stated methods of locating the Icelandic servers don't make sense, and are probably not true?

    6. Preet Bharara was the prosecutor, not the judge who handed out the sentence, Katherine Forrest.

    7. A seemingly large factor in her decision related to future deterrence, which is a concept I generally think is unreasonable... but if you're looking for why the sentence was so extreme, that would probably be your answer. Regardless, if you added up the minimum sentences for count 2 and 4 (since the judge struck counts 1 and 3 for being redundant lesser charges) you're already talking minimum 30 years. If you add that to the maximum sentences for the remaining three charges, you get potentially another 40 years added to that. Ross was thirty or so when he was arrested? A 70 year long sentence doesn't sound like much of an improvement over a life sentence at that point.

    If you'd like to read the transcript of the decision, it's here on the bottom of the page

  2. #1622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    If you'd like to read the transcript of the decision, it's here on the bottom of the page
    HOOOOOOLY CRAP, THAT'S AN AWESOME ARTICLE! Thanks!

  3. #1623
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    There's speculative reasoning why, and from what I understood, the corruption charges related directly to the decision to take the charge of conspiracy to murder off the table. The evidence is still pretty convincing, and it doesn't start/stop there. The guy even wrote about it in his private journal. Either way, it almost sounds like OJ all over again (with a different outcome). Mark Fuhrman is a racist asshole... his refusal to testify under oath that he didn't tamper with the evidence was, at best, incredibly stupid and damaging to the prosecution. All the same, we all KNOW that OJ was guilty as hell... and we all know that the murder charges play a large role in the unrelated sentence he's currently serving. I wish I could feign some irritation about that, but I just can't. He got away with committing a horrific, violent double-murder.

    Again, though, do YOU personally believe Ross is innocent on the conspiracy to have people murdered? I'm trying to figure out what is compelling your personal interest in this story.

    I've heard the claim that there had been multiple DPRs in the past, and it makes sense, given the name from The Princess Bride and what it would seemingly entail. On what grounds was the evidence denied its day in court? I must have missed that part... Still, many times evidence is refused because they consider it immaterial, hearsay, a number of reasons... often it is rejected because it is perceived to be a persuasion ploy without merit. I know, the court allowed for the grieving parents of kids who OD'd to testify as to their loss, and that was an emotional and unnecessary appeal...

    Again though, like I said, the Court agreed to knock two of the most serious charges off. If they'd remained and he was convicted of all four charges at their minimum sentence, he'd get fifty years minimum, and that's if the other three charges (which he was found guilty of to the maximum penalty) were found not-guilty.

    And one more time, Preet Bharara served as prosecutor, and did not decide the sentence. To say "fuck him" is unfair, and you might as well say the same for the defense if you believe they failed in their job. Look at some of the other cases he prosecuted

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Edit: as for your math comparison, keep in mind it's life without parole. Not just life.
    I understand that, and was going to mention it originally but thought the distinction was obvious. I'm not a fan of a sentence of "life without parole" in general. That's one degree separation from the death penalty, which is something I'm opposed to (and I've changed my mind about this constantly) because (alongside a ton of other concerns) it doesn't allow for the possibility that the verdict could have been premature or just demonstrably proven wrong in the future should new evidence come to light.

    In the case of a ruling where parole is denied, if further evidence comes to light, it can still be appealed. That said, "life without parole" does not strip you of the ability to appeal the ruling at a later date, because you're dead with the death penalty. Really though, the parole process is diminished in its worthiness by the ability to deny it from the onset, on that I'd assume we agree. By denying any criminal the possibility for parole, you're just saying that the parole boards are incompetent... which may be demonstrably true in many cases, but that speaks to a larger issue.
    Last edited by Jinsai; 03-12-2017 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #1624
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    my feeling was there was a lot of piling on, mostly to wash the "egg" of the fed faces and their ability to fight crime in "cyber" crime the following is just my opinion
    1. tor was Darpa sponsored and promoted, i think they hoped that the dark net would stay well dark 2. they did not want and still don't want the further use of bit coins, and could further demonize those bastard"hackers". and well drugs. in modern time when ever I see pedophilia satanism and drugs it smells of smearing. but that's just my opinion. now i have to get back to my child sacrifices, before the drugs wear off.
    -Louie

  5. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louie_Cypher View Post
    my feeling was there was a lot of piling on, mostly to wash the "egg" of the fed faces and their ability to fight crime in "cyber" crime the following is just my opinion
    1. tor was Darpa sponsored and promoted, i think they hoped that the dark net would stay well dark 2. they did not want and still don't want the further use of bit coins, and could further demonize those bastard"hackers". and well drugs. in modern time when ever I see pedophilia satanism and drugs it smells of smearing. but that's just my opinion. now i have to get back to my child sacrifices, before the drugs wear off.
    -Louie
    Judges don't care about any of that. I think the Judge put a lot of effort and research and consideration into this, reading 100s of character references. All sentences are intended to be punitive not only for the crime(s) but also as a deterrent. That's what sentencing is all about. All drug sentencing is harsh. No matter where or how the drugs are sold, but especially if a "Doctor" is paraded around insuring alleged safety and then people die. Laws are laws. The Defendant acknowledged that before his sentencing. The PURPOSE of sentencing is to consider the threat to society. That's what criminal law and sentencing is all about. And modern sentencing nearly always includes impact statements as well as character witnesses. That's the way it happens, that's procedure. Sentencing with no parole is given for a purpose, usually for people who don't appear to grasp laws or are likely to continue the same behavior or aren't likely to be rehabilitated by prison. Manson is eligible for parole every few years but it's NEVER granted, because he will never be fit to live in society.

    OJ Simpson was acquitted because the Prosecution did a SHITTY JOB. Period. And the LA police fucked up the crime scene and evidence.

    And NONE of this has to do with Trump.
    Last edited by allegro; 03-12-2017 at 10:39 PM.

  6. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    And NONE of this has to do with Trump.
    Agreed, and it's time to probably get back to the issue at hand...

    Though, perhaps first to address the tangent behind the drift, even if it just comes down to near-conspiracy theorizing; was the instant "surprise" nature of the massive firing of attorneys mostly a smoke screen to hide an ulterior reason to remove Preet Bharara, or is it just a coincidence that he was originally assured that he would keep his office, and his move to refuse to resign just shock... was there an urgent reason to remove/replace him?

  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Agreed, and it's time to probably get back to the issue at hand...

    Though, perhaps first to address the tangent behind the drift, even if it just comes down to near-conspiracy theorizing; was the instant "surprise" nature of the massive firing of attorneys mostly a smoke screen to hide an ulterior reason to remove Preet Bharara, or is it just a coincidence that he was originally assured that he would keep his office, and his move to refuse to resign just shock... was there an urgent reason to remove/replace him?
    It has NOTHING to do with him. Zero. This administration is not doing anything abnormal, the Press is making it seem that way. It's not. It doesn't matter if Trump liked him; Trump isn't the Attorney General, he's not even a lawyer. This dude was not singled out; he's arrogant to think that he should be spared.
    Last edited by allegro; 03-12-2017 at 10:43 PM.

  8. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Ok... if we're going to take a detour to discuss Ross Ulbricht...


    (But seriously...more posts like this and less attacking / name calling plz)

  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    It has NOTHING to do with him. Zero. This administration is not doing anything abnormal, the Press is making it seem that way. It's not.
    That's what I presumed, but I grow suspicious as hell when this administration does an about-face.

    I understood that under former administrations inheriting opposition, the retirements were rolled out. I know under Clinton, Reno cast everyone out. I was pretty young then and not paying attention. Was it a "heads up, clear up your desk and get your stuff out of here by nightfall?" sort of deal? I always thought this sort of process dealt with a lot of forewarning.

  10. #1630
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    Nope. They want their own people in there.

    These people can get new jobs; those are highly political hirings. They knew that when they were hired.

  11. #1631
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Nope. They want their own people in there.

    These people can get new jobs; those are highly political hirings. They knew that when they were hired.
    I understand that. To be honest, I was saying to everyone "stop jumping at shadows, there's nothing to see here," and then Preet refused to resign. Seeing as he was previously assured that he would be staying on, and how sudden and unexpected the order to resign was, it felt curious. Honestly, it felt even more curious when his refusal to resign was immediately met with a quiet firing.

    And, to be fair to the press who aren't doing a very good job of not sensationalizing this, most outlets I've read have noted that Reno went far further. It is completely true though, that if there was no rollout difference in the way the Clinton campaign handled this aspect of their transition than this, they are truly playing right into the hands of being accused of a conspiracy to undermine Trump... and I would hate to say it, but the accusation would hold in this case then.

  12. #1632
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    I truly don't know here. With "Russia hacked the election" I felt there was insufficient evidence but would have still bet money on it being Russia. With Ross... there is so much more doubt hidden in the technology. At a minimum, there are some very large pieces of the puzzle that are missing.




    Quite a few reasons I am interested... In context of the today's posts here: It's skepticism pertaining to the technical evidence. It's the same reason I was being skeptical about the "Russia hacked the election" narrative (which turns out to have not been a solid as everyone was saying). And the Russia situation was incredibly simple phishing based password stealing. Silk Road has much more complicated tech: bitcoin, tor, etc. Even fewer people truly understand it. Its much more complex and easier for evidence collection to get fucked up. From the moment news broke about the feds finding his server via some "leaky captcha" mechanism a LOT of red flags went up all around the security community. It only compounded as time went on.


    Separate from the legal situation, Silk Road (and all the other dark markets) fall heavily into my interests in crypto-anarchy, free market experiments, etc. I think, regardless of your politics, there is an easy argument to be made that Silk Road was a net positive for "society" even if you only consider how much physical violence it removed from drug trade. So seeing Ross get punished not for the crimes he was convicted of, but for "threatening the fabric of society" is frustrating.
    Did you read his statement to the Judge? It doesn't matter where you are breaking the laws; the laws are still the laws. "Online" is not a mythical Matrix plane of existence. It's no different than mail order or catalogs. If you sell drugs via mail order, you'd get busted for that, too. And if people die from the drugs you're selling via direct mail or whatever, then you're in trouble. People dying is still negatively affecting society, at least by current legal standards.

    The Judge told him:

    "You were captain of the ship, as the Dread Pirate Roberts, and you made your own laws and you enforced those laws. So, it wasn't a world without restriction. It wasn't a world of ultimate freedom. It was a world of laws that you created, they were your laws. It is fictional to think of Silk Road as some place of freedom."

    "What Silk Road really was was a social market expander of a socially harmful drug that we have deemed in our democratic process to be unacceptable and it was an enabler of those trying so very hard to get away from it.

    "The social costs of drugs are manifest. The user is only one part of the equation, that is where much of this harm reduction argument comes from and it is focused on the user. The user is one part of a massive, massive worldwide scheme of drug trafficking and if you sat where I sat you would see that the user is not the end… So, harm reduction focused on the user is missing the point."
    I don't care about this guy. He sounds like a douchebag. I'm more concerned about War On Drug mandatory sentencing, like too many fucking years for possession of one hit of acid. That's the kind of sentencing laws I'd like changed. This guy? Yeah, whatever. If you want a "free market experiment," then maybe selling something legal that doesn't kill people would be a good start.

    ANYWAYYYYYYYYYYY ... trying to UN-DRIFT THIS THREAD ....

    Trump's campaign included a focus on ending the opioid addiction epidemic. It appears that Ryancare might fuck that up.
    Last edited by allegro; 03-13-2017 at 01:29 AM.

  13. #1633
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    I truly don't know here. With "Russia hacked the election" I felt there was insufficient evidence but would have still bet money on it being Russia. With Ross... there is so much more doubt hidden in the technology. At a minimum, there are some very large pieces of the puzzle that are missing.
    Ross is someone who would be adept at hiding his breadcrumb trails though; a much more interesting mystery in that regard.... How did he REALLY get caught, what did he fuck up on...

    It's a page turner for people in security to latch on to... ultimately though, he was an opportunist who failed at overestimating the protections of the deep web, and he got fucked and made an example of, legally.




    Quite a few reasons I am interested... In context of the today's posts here: It's skepticism pertaining to the technical evidence.

    and on that issue, I have so many questions... but fuck that because it's ultimately drift. Demanding empirical evidence is a worthy journalistic/judicial trait, completely across the board. We want everyone who reports or judges situations to have a functional understanding of the issues at hand, and to be able to impartially weigh in on guilt with regards to violations.

    On the legal end, dishonesty and bias are in flagrant display... in journalism, it's more nuanced. The issue of journalistic integrity is more paramount to me with regards to the issue of Pareet Bharara... and as far as his input in that particular case goes, the majority of your objections lie elsewhere.

    It's the same reason I was being skeptical about the "Russia hacked the election" narrative (which turns out to have not been a solid as everyone was saying). And the Russia situation was incredibly simple phishing based password stealing. Silk Road has much more complicated tech: bitcoin, tor, etc. Even fewer people truly understand it. Its much more complex and easier for evidence collection to get fucked up. From the moment news broke about the feds finding his server via some "leaky captcha" mechanism a LOT of red flags went up all around the security community. It only compounded as time went on.
    EVERYONE should be skeptical of this narrative. It sounds insane!

    But look at what we're dealing with here... C'mon libertarians, join the push for transparency and ask for Trump's tax returns, so this doesn't get murkier! Let's get to the bottom of what this president's agenda is all about! If he's squeaky clean, oh dear, we're going to have to go back to something less terrible, like him handing his businesses over to his kids which have seen a general boom in profit since his election.


    Separate from the legal situation, Silk Road (and all the other dark markets) fall heavily into my interests in crypto-anarchy, free market experiments, etc. I think, regardless of your politics, there is an easy argument to be made that Silk Road was a net positive for "society" even if you only consider how much physical violence it removed from drug trade. So seeing Ross get punished not for the crimes he was convicted of, but for "threatening the fabric of society" is frustrating.
    despite my hatred of the war on drugs, my stance there is debatable actually... and it's a topic for another thread.

  14. #1634
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    @allegro - That's why I said that last section was "separate from the legal situation." But no, I don't accept that. If you provided the equivalent of Amazon for drugs to all the people of chicago, what do you think would happen to all the existing violent crime? The sellers and buyers wouldn't be on the street anymore. That removes so much of the violent crime that exists on the back of the drug market.

    My legal issue is entirely in the suspicious technical evidence and the blatant corruption that surrounds it.
    And it's all a red herring from your larger concern... at least when I look at controversial cases like the whole "free Mumia" thing, I believed that the supporters had some legitimate concern about the defendant, and not some investment in the larger issue that he might represent. With Ross, I'm sorry, the bias in support for his cause is definitely political, and it runs down a party line.

  15. #1635
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    back to topic kellyanne reaches new level of crazy http://www.usatoday.com/news/ i know it's USA today but still
    -Louie

  16. #1636
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    -Louie

  17. #1637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louie_Cypher View Post
    back to topic kellyanne reaches new level of crazy http://www.usatoday.com/news/ i know it's USA today but still
    -Louie
    I'm assuming you mean this article (yours just goes to the main USA Today website)

  18. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    @allegro - That's why I said that last section was "separate from the legal situation." But no, I don't accept that. If you provided the equivalent of Amazon for drugs to all the people of chicago, what do you think would happen to all the existing violent crime? The sellers and buyers wouldn't be on the street anymore. That removes so much of the violent crime that exists on the back of the drug market.

    My legal issue is entirely in the suspicious technical evidence and the blatant corruption that surrounds it.
    Well then those errors can help in an appeal. But you don't need as much evidence as you think for this stuff.

    Also, moving drug sales to the internet would not stop drug sales in Chicago. It would only ramp up competition, and perhaps violence. And the gang violence in Chicago isn't solely about drug sales, anymore; it's way more complicated, is rooted in reputation and pride and is pretty tribal.

    And focusing on method of distribution, here, ignores the violence involved at the source, in the country of origin.

    Anyway, this guy's legal trouble mostly points at his arrogance. When you know and acknowledge that you are breaking laws, you tend to be more careful; not so much when you believe that no laws can touch you and you are the one making your own law.

    Re Conway: Why are these news outlets still extending her 15 Minutes?? She NEVER makes sense. Now you're just taunting her and asking questions as click-bait knowing whatever she says will be useless and/or nuts.
    Last edited by allegro; 03-13-2017 at 09:33 AM.

  19. #1639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Actually, under Clinton, the call to resign was on a larger scale...
    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    Huh. Thanks.

  20. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhettButler View Post
    HAHA:
    I was just talking to some people the other day that if there were ever a person to tell us that aliens exist, it will be Donald Trump.

  21. #1641
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegate View Post
    Huh. Thanks.
    And Rostenkowski was convicted in 1994 (re that old NY Times story).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Rostenkowski

  22. #1642
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegate View Post
    I was just talking to some people the other day that if there were ever a person to tell us that aliens exist, it will be Donald Trump.
    ...and his inside information would be gleaned from Info Wars

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    ...and his inside information would be gleaned from Info Wars
    Alex Jones has actually said that elite globalists use DMT to cut Satanic deals with interdimensional beings, so this could have already happened actually!

  24. #1644
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    Trump admin backpedaling on Obama wiretaps claim. I don't know if this hilarious or just fucking sad.
    Speaking of Trump's accusation tweet. Spicy said "The President used the word wiretaps in quotes to mean, broadly, surveillance and other activities."



  25. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by kleiner352 View Post
    Alex Jones has actually said that elite globalists use DMT to cut Satanic deals with inter-dimensional beings, so this could have already happened actually!
    you wouldn't happen to be in the market for a bridge would you?
    -Louie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deepvoid View Post
    Trump admin backpedaling on Obama wiretaps claim. I don't know if this hilarious or just fucking sad.
    Speaking of Trump's accusation tweet. Spicy said "The President used the word wiretaps in quotes to mean, broadly, surveillance and other activities."


    [QUOTE=Deepvoid;346179]Trump admin backpedaling on Obama wiretaps claim. I don't know if this hilarious or just fucking sad.
    Speaking of Trump's accusation tweet. Spicy said "The President used the word wiretaps in quotes to mean, broadly, surveillance and other activities." you had you change for proof today trump: *crickets* liar

    -Louie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louie_Cypher View Post
    you wouldn't happen to be in the market for a bridge would you?
    -Louie
    Uh ... where I did I say I believe anything Alex Jones says?

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    Rachel Maddow just sent out a tweet saying she has Trump's tax returns and I can't remember the last time I hoped for truth like this.

  29. #1649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swykk View Post
    Rachel Maddow just sent out a tweet saying she has Trump's tax returns and I can't remember the last time I hoped for truth like this.
    I guarantee this will be disappointing, but I'm interested nonetheless.

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    It'll make Geraldo opening the vault look like he actually found something in the damn thing.

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