2016 Presidential Election

[Deepvoid]

Bernie supporters can vote third party all they want but they can't whine if Trump sneaks by Hillary as a result of third party candidates getting more votes than anticipated.
Each vote has a consequence. Sometimes you end up voting for the candidate you really like. Sometimes you also need to vote strategically to make sure one candidate doesn't win.

Most of the people in Quebec voted strategically in the last general election in Canada simply to make sure the Conservatives wouldn't win. I know people who want Quebec's independence, who ended up voting for the Liberals instead of the Bloc Quebecois (pro-sovereignty party).

I you truly don't care about Trump getting elected then vote with your heart. However, if it bothers you the slightest, then your vote should automatically go to Hillary.

[aggroculture]

Almost every day I see articles saying the same thing: "ho ho ho, the GOP is collapsing because Trump." This false sense of security is infuriating. It's what will lead directly to a Trump victory. The other day I met some dudes, liberals, who were like "blah blah electoral college there's no way Trump can win this election." And this is a few weeks after Brexit, where everyone was "la la la we got this." We didn't have this at all. The extreme right destroyed the liberal vote.
And this entirely baffling to me confidence that Trump has no chance confuses the hell out of me. Republicans run this country: 31 states out of 50. They got the house, the senate, they're stalling the supreme court; they're taking over and dismantling universities; Pat McCrory just signed a law saying police bodycam footage will not be public domain. Police are involved in a slow motion genocide against black people. Republicans are stomping all over this country with glee, and democrats are like "look, the GOP is imploding, we're winning!." It's like they're living in a bizarro world or Charlie Sheen's mind. I have no idea what's going on, but the left are in some serious denial.

[implanted_microchip]

Almost every day I see articles saying the same thing: "ho ho ho, the GOP is collapsing because Trump." This false sense of security is infuriating. It's what will lead directly to a Trump victory. The other day I met some dudes, liberals, who were like "blah blah electoral college there's no way Trump can win this election." And this is a few weeks after Brexit, where everyone was "la la la we got this." We didn't have this at all. The extreme right destroyed the liberal vote.
And this entirely baffling to me confidence that Trump has no chance confuses the hell out of me. Republicans run this country: 31 states out of 50. They got the house, the senate, they're stalling the supreme court; they're taking over and dismantling universities; Pat McCrory just signed a law saying police bodycam footage will not be public domain. Police are involved in a slow motion genocide against black people. Republicans are stomping all over this country with glee, and democrats are like "look, the GOP is imploding, we're winning!." It's like they're living in a bizarro world or Charlie Sheen's mind. I have no idea what's going on, but the left are in some serious denial.

I've believed for a while that the biggest reason Trump could win would be Democrats being over-confident and a major terrorist attack happening in the US close to November. One can't really be predicted or easily prevented but the other can. Republicans themselves were over-confident he couldn't be the nominee for ages and look what happened. His greatest strength has been, this whole time IMO, the fact that his competition has underestimated him constantly.

Now actual Democratic politicians seem to be taking him very seriously -- Bernie and Hillary both have spent a lot of time talking about how dangerous he is and I'm sure that'll be a major focus for the entire race from here on out, with pretty much an all-star gangbang of Democratic leaders getting in on the action, but voters themselves live in a bubble now of social media where they just can't believe anybody could ever support somebody like Trump and feel "secure" that he'd never win. All i have to do is drive around in traffic here in Florida for all of five minutes and I'll see a dozen TRUMP stickers on the backs of truck windows. But there's a lot of places where I think those people aren't half as vocal and a lot of folks in this country will likely assume "Gee, I never see anyone who supports him; it can't happen!" and then they won't vote.

Democrats often operate on a mistaken sense of "no one can ever be that stupid, though" rhetoric that always fails. I've really enjoyed Real Time with Bill Maher lately simply because he constantly gets onto people for behaving as if Trump has no chance and always reiterates the fact that that attitude is exactly why he could win. Anybody who doesn't want him in the White House should bare minimum go and vote Democrat this November and if they don't and he wins, it's people like them that are why.

[aggroculture]

Democrats often operate on a mistaken sense of "no one can ever be that stupid, though" rhetoric that always fails.

Yep. I've been seeing various articles lately talking about how elitist, and disconnected from the working class, liberal politicians have become, and I believe that's what happened in the UK. Middle-class educated leftists simply "can't believe" people think those things, have those grievances, and vote that way. The right has its ear to the ground and right now seems much better at listening to and intepreting (and creating) popular resentment on a variety of cultural and socio-economic faultlines and harvesting it for votes. I think what we're seeing now is the left in deep crisis and I just don't know how you translate the anger and outrage and constructive desire to make a fairer, better, less violent and oppressive world, of Bernie's movement and BLM and Occupy into actual political power.

[Jinsai]

The reason people think it's impossible for Trump to win is because the average person puts too much faith in the intelligence of the average voter.

[Your Name Here]

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[allegro]

Yep. I've been seeing various articles lately talking about how elitist, and disconnected from the working class, liberal politicians have become, and I believe that's what happened in the UK. Middle-class educated leftists simply "can't believe" people think those things, have those grievances, and vote that way. The right has its ear to the ground and right now seems much better at listening to and intepreting (and creating) popular resentment on a variety of cultural and socio-economic faultlines and harvesting it for votes. I think what we're seeing now is the left in deep crisis and I just don't know how you translate the anger and outrage and constructive desire to make a fairer, better, less violent and oppressive world, of Bernie's movement and BLM and Occupy into actual political power.

I don't think you can really compare the U.K. to the U.S. with elections, they may seem the same but it's not really the same; the U.S.' vote is divided, pretty much, along race lines; pretty much ALL of the South was DEMOCRAT until Lyndon Johnson and the Civil Rights Movement, then those anti-segregation Dems shifted to the Republican side. But many of those Red states contain LOTS OF MINORITIES, so - theoretically - if those minorities actually VOTED (which they historically tend not to do very much), the Dems would always win no matter what. It's why Romney lost, it's why Trump is predicted to lose: minority vote. Which is why Trump is predicted to lose: minority vote.

Universities and Republicans, that's a funny one because, as you well know, Universities and Colleges (as @Mantra and I have discussed here on numerous occasions) are no longer primarily institutions of education but are profit-generating entities with people at the top earning over $500,000 per year plus bonuses, with a huge amount of the college money coming from Federal and State college loans; and pretty much everybody knows this all happened because once the universities and colleges figured out that they had guaranteed annual money arriving, they pushed the money to the top for themselves and left a little for the staff and students (hence why the teachers are T.A.s and Adjuncts), and of course this model would be fully supported by Republicans but it's up to VOTERS to do something about it, and GET RID OF THAT GLUT AT THE TOP, fire all those fucking Trustees and Board Presidents making a half a million per year and more, and give teachers more money, etc. (This, of course, applies to public institutions, only; private institutions have always been free to do whatever they want, within the limitations imposed by Federal loans.)

Regarding liberal politicians in Congress and the disconnect from the working class, that's been happening for a long long time because most of the members of Congress are RICH. Very very rich. If they weren't when they went in, they are once they get there. And they often forget who they represent, because they are often more worried about raising the necessary funds to win the next elections (obsessed). It's all about money. People think this is a new thing, really, but it's not. I found a few quotes for a friend dating back to Roosevelt complaining about having to raise money for elections, and even back to the 1800s. Money money money, which just further separates politicians from their middle and lower class base. I think this is really changing due to the virtual disappearance of the middle class, and more and more demand for "social" programs and the "socialist" attitude of progressives who push the liberals into a more equitable distribution of resources.

The whole reason why the Republicans are now in control of Congress (after several terms of the Dems being in control of Congress) is because the Democrats simply DIDN'T VOTE AS MUCH AS THE REPUBLICANS. It's the Dems' own fault. The Tea Party may have spent more money, but as we saw in the Eric Cantor election in Virginia, that don't mean shit; he lost after spending millions to a guy who spent less than $200,000. Trump won the Republican Primary after spending hardly anything and using his Twitter feed and his Big Mouth to garner a shitload of media attention.

But, yes, it ain't over until it's over, as we saw IN THE BUSH V. GORE ELECTION. GET THE FUCK OUT THERE AND VOTE. I don't care what fucking state you are in, GO REGISTER, and VOTE. Lazy = if you didn't vote, TRUMP IS YOUR FUCKING FAULT, TOO.

(Although, Cruz would have been a lot worse, LOL, now if only we can get him out of Congress.)

[aggroculture]

Last night I watched Chomsky's The Requiem for the American Dream (on Netflix): depressing and informative on how money and rich people have configured things to their benefit from the framers onwards.

But explain then: how did GWB win? If GWB won, why can't Trump? Are minorities more engaged now than in 2000 or 2010 mid-term?

[implanted_microchip]

Even if someone thinks it's impossible for Trump to win, it's better for him to lose by as wide a margin as possible. He'll go away; his supporters won't. If he were to get an abysmally low amount of votes, that could really help discourage that entire alt-right movement in this country. If it's close, it'll only make those people all the more fervent and we'll see the GOP likely try and band around it as much as possible because it'll seem like "the most likely path to victory." I'd take an old school, country club Republican any day over the Trumps of the world.

[allegro]

But explain then: how did GWB win? If GWB won, why can't Trump? Are minorities more engaged now than in 2000 or 2010 mid-term?

GWB v. Gore was a very close call, but Gore didn't manage to win in his own state of Tennessee; for some reason, Bush galvanized voters in the South, and across the country, so he garnered more Electoral College votes than Gore, and this caused Gore a lot of problems, it's why Obama won over Clinton in '08 even though, if you count Michigan (who didn't have Obama on the ballot), Clinton won the popular vote. Minorities didn't like Gore so they didn't vote. Look at the Gore/Bush Electoral College map; Bush killed Gore with Electoral College votes. But Gore won the popular vote.

But, see, Gore got 266 Electoral votes; Bush got 271. FIVE different. Had Gore won his own state of Tennessee, with ELEVEN Electoral votes? Yeah ...

Now, let's look at the 2008 Presidential Election, Obama vs. McCain ...

Look at the difference between THOSE electoral votes, where voters were much more galvanized to get to the pols.

Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada have gone "Purple" since the Bush / Gore election. Pennsylvania and Ohio voted for Bush.

This year in PA, 892,702 voted for Trump, 918,689 voted for Clinton.

Ohio is more dicey: 727,585 voted for Trump, 679,266 voted for Clinton.

While lots more voters tend to show up for general elections, who knows.

[Sarah K]

I'm still reading opinions of people on facebook saying that Bernie is going to drop a bombshell about fraud while he is speaking at the convention, and he could end up walking away with the nomination. The reason he endorsed Hillary is because if he gave out this information now, then it would give the Clintons time to cover it up.

Like, what world is this? I understand the disappointment. But he has decided to endorse her and move forward. He actually accomplished quite a bit. But it's time to face reality.

[Your Name Here]

..................

[Jinsai]

Also, Nader. It's almost important to remember what Nader did. If he had dropped out, Gore would have won by a landslide.

I'm wondering if Sanders' recent endorsement of Hillary will make Jill Stein cut back on her "Let's keep the bern going in the green party!" bullshit, but I think she was making a really shrewd and effective recruitment technique by beating him to the punch. I have such a love/hate relationship with the Green party, but I'm starting to lean towards hate here. We could have had Al "climate change actually matters guys!" Gore instead of George Bush Jr, but hey thanks a lot Green party. And now, we're looking at them wanting to hand it to Trump by hijacking Bernie Sanders supporters.

There's a time and a place guys... now's not the time.

[allegro]

Also, Nader. It's almost important to remember what Nader did. If he had dropped out, Gore would have won by a landslide.

That's maybe true, I dunno. Nader only got 739,034 votes nationally and did not get one single Electoral vote. The theory is, in history, that if you can't manage to win your own state, you won't win the election. Them's the odds.

Bottom line is that the Green Party is interesting to people who are sick of the two-party system and all that, but the people who tend to vote Green (or Libertarian) are middle to upper middle class white voters whose votes probably ain't gonna matter two shits, anyway. And, as @kleiner352 has pointed out, many of Bernie's supporters don't even VOTE so Jill can recruit them all she wants but she's gonna end up with a bunch of people who are all mouth and no votes.

[implanted_microchip]

I'm still reading opinions of people on facebook saying that Bernie is going to drop a bombshell about fraud while he is speaking at the convention, and he could end up walking away with the nomination. The reason he endorsed Hillary is because if he gave out this information now, then it would give the Clintons time to cover it up.

Like, what world is this? I understand the disappointment. But he has decided to endorse her and move forward. He actually accomplished quite a bit. But it's time to face reality.

There's also been people actually claiming that the Clinton's are threatening the lives of his grandchildren to make him endorse. I wish I wasn't being serious when I say this.

Because, y'know, him saying time and again that he'd support whoever the Democratic nominee is and making that clear over and over and over again just doesn't mean anything and getting the DNC to adopt 15 dollar minimum wage in the party platform and getting Hillary to support the debt-free college ideas and include a public option in his health care platform -- those things aren't "real accomplishments" or anything, right?

It's so weird to me. Like, they got a lot of things done -- at a certain point people need to realistically be proud of their achievements and know when it's time to hang it up. Hillary's platform is way further left now and the DNC in general is, and it got a lot of things into the general dialogue that likely wouldn't have come up otherwise. I think Sanders did some cool shit in all of those regards, but, good Christ the supporters of his that are now full-on conspiracy theorists talking like they're the reason every time I go to buy tin foil, it's sold out, is just embarrassing and damages the entire image of his campaign. They've been doing it for months and now it's still on-going. It's bananas.

I just can't stand watching people that are supposed to be the "progressive of the progressives" literally doing all the shit conservative media has done for 30 years towards the Clinton's now. It's ridiculous. Say what you want about people like Roger Ailes and Fox News, but, wow, propaganda really does have an impact.

[Swykk]

Yeah, I am passionate and all, probably to a fault, but the level of denial is reaching conspiracy theory levels with the Internet Bernie-Or-Busters.

I have largely avoided reading anything crazy since yesterday so glad I missed out on the threatening of grandchildren shit. Fuck's sake.

I hope people here and in general understand I unquestionably care way too much and I tend to make mistakes due to it.

[Sarah K]

Hahaha. On the convo I was talking about, someone mentioned the threatening his grandchildren thing, but I thought that was just an attempt at a "joke". Jeez.

[Your Name Here]

...............

[implanted_microchip]

Yeah, I am passionate and all, probably to a fault, but the level of denial is reaching conspiracy theory levels with the Internet Bernie-Or-Busters.

I have largely avoided reading anything crazy since yesterday so glad I missed out on the threatening of grandchildren shit. Fuck's sake.

Yeah, those kinds of people have been more and more vocal for months now and it's why so many people have had such a push-back against Sanders fans in general. It just gets exhausting when you have people wearing the thinnest of veils as they push conspiracy theories and just general anti-Clinton rhetoric rather than pro-Sanders rhetoric, which is what the internet's been coated in for a while now. It's just awful. They have been insanely vocal for a long time and reasonable, average people have been drowned out completely by them. Then you have someone like Jill Stein just doing all she can to capitalize off of that and Trump even pandering to it and it's just stomach-churning.

Half of why I stopped telling people I voted for him was because it hit a point where every time I did, I'd get "that look" and have to explain that I wasn't among that crowd. The younger you are the more likely I think you are to run into it, too. I had a group of unregistered voters who were all 18-22 flat-out yell at me at a party a couple months back when the question of "Who are you voting for?" came up and I said "Hillary," because I knew she'd be the nominee by then and the Florida primary was over and done. I then had to explain to them the entire process of primaries. It was numbing at best.

It's really frustrating because I think Bernie's supporters could do so fucking much to get really progressive, grassroots Democratic campaigns going all across the country in local and state-level governments, and doing that is exactly what could lead to further-left candidates being increasingly more prevalent in Congress and more viable in presidential elections, and instead there's people trying to act like some crazy gun-to-his-grandkids-heads-conspiracy is going on. The thought that there are people who find it easier to believe that some grandiose third act of a Lethal Weapon movie plot is at work rather than "the guy did what he said he'd do months ago like a rational adult" is just insane to me.

I really would love to see all the college-age kids Bernie got so fired up going out and getting involved in local government and forging careers in politics that would lead to people like Sanders or Warren being commonplace in the House and Senate rather than minorities, but that isn't what I've seen happen so far. It seems far more about "having an identity" than about actually doing anything for most of them and it's just ridiculous.

[Jinsai]

Hahaha. On the convo I was talking about, someone mentioned the threatening his grandchildren thing, but I thought that was just an attempt at a "joke". Jeez.

Nothing is too far fetched for conspiracy theorists. I have a friend who has truly jumped into the conspiracy rabbit hole... to the point where he seems to be implying that the Orlando shooting didn't happen, and all the people mourning were paid "crisis actors." He's at the point where any tragic event is obviously a smokescreen for something much bigger, that the puppet masters have us all fooled, and don't even get started about 9/11 unless you want to get a bunch of links to twenty or so hours of easily debunked madness.

regarding the presidential race... I had an interesting (if disturbing) discussion about this upcoming election with someone recently, and his take-away was that we really couldn't trust the polls this time around. On one hand, you have all the Bernie-or-bust people, many of whom may be bluffing and when they go into the voting booth will secretly be voting for Clinton and then tell everyone they didn't. Then, on the other hand, you have all the people who really love Trump's non-too-subtle appeal to people's bigotry and xenophobia... All the people out there who secretly love his projections of racism, who are legitimately bated by the scaremongering. These people don't want to admit that they love that shit, because it will expose them and confirm the suspicions of people who think they're bigots.

And the latter group is probably a lot larger.

[aggroculture]

I wonder why RBG backed down: my guess is that her comments were just ammunition for Trump and the GOP to delegitimize her authority.

[Jinsai]

Mike Pence is officially Trump's running mate.

[Your Name Here]

...................

[Frozen Beach]

https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/videos/10157309144940725/
This is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen.

[Dryalex12]

Mike Pence is officially Trump's running mate.

And there goes the rest of my braincells

[Swykk]

This is real bad. Pence is a tea party homophobic asshole who has been ruining education ever since taking over for his asshole mentor, Mitch Daniels. He also hates unions.
He is reviled here in the Northwest portion of Indiana. There are more anti Pence signs around than any other political signs.

[Your Name Here]

................

[implanted_microchip]

https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/videos/10157309144940725/
This is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen.

Oh, what a time to be alive

And just think, everybody -- Obama was criticized for going on late night TV because it wasn't seen as presidential.

[Harry Seaward]

I had been assuming that Trump would be picking somebody for Vice President who is a little more centrist and level-headed and moderate, in an attempt to maybe corral some directionless Sanders supporters and gain more attention from centrist voters he might not otherwise have. Basically, I was imagining he would team up with somebody who balances him out. So you can imagine my shock when the announcement came that Trump had chosen Mike Pence, who in the year 2000 stated that Congress should oppose an effort to recognize homosexuals as a minority who might protected by anti-discrimination laws. A man who called for the federal government to ensure that federal funds wouldn't be given to organizations that support homosexuality, or as he states it, "organizations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviors that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus." A man who instead would prefer federal funds go towards conversion therapy programs. A man who stated that same-sex marriage would bring upon societal collapse. A man who said that upholding Obamacare was similar to September 11. Honestly, I've never even heard of this dude before. All of the things I listed were from his informationally sparse Wikipedia page. I really can't imagine what other hateful, batshit crazy shit he's said and done in his short 15 year political career.

I really don't know what the Trump camp is thinking with this choice. I can't possibly imagine what he has to gain from Pence. Like I said before, it would have been a very smart and well-calculated move to choose somebody who's more centrist. It may have possibly worked to win him more votes from people who wouldn't normally vote for Trump, but really don't want HRC. He already has the venomous, outrageously-far-right, fascist Tea Party vote. How could this possibly do anything other than hurt him? Can anybody explain to me what Pence could possibly bring to the table that Trump didn't already have taken care of before?

[Harry Seaward]

On a slightly tangential but mostly unrelated note - how long do you guys think it will be before we begin to see any, let alone the majority of, politicians who are admittedly atheist? I really don't understand how it's so completely acceptable to even casual 'agnostics' that in America we have Congressmen, Presidents, and Presidential candidates who not only believe in God, but tout their belief as a major part of their platform.

It's absolutely, mind-bogglingly, unfathomably insane to me. As an example, George Bush literally told the American public that God was speaking to him. The President of the United States of America told us that he heard the voice of an eternal being, the creator of reality, the deity whose history dates back a whopping 2,000 years, sourced from a book written by desert-dwelling Egyptians and Jews. God. It's hard to even type this, because it's hard to even comprehend that this is something that the American people are absolutely okay with hearing from the leader of their country, the most powerful man alive.

Granted, I don't know about Bush specifically, but it's almost certain that many of them are faking their beliefs because they wouldn't stand a chance otherwise. I legitimately think that Barack Obama is an atheist, or a confused agnostic at best, but a black man who also happens to be a godless immoral heathen ain't gettin' no votes for the Presidency.

All of this makes it hard for me to vote for basically *any* politicians. I don't think a belief in God is an acceptable trait for a head of state to have. It's illogical, childish, and it forces you to ask if they're smart and emotionally stable enough to handle the job of high-level leadership. Would you trust or vote for a President or Congressman who honestly believes in Santa Claus? Who bows their head and holds hand with their family on December 24th while silently praying that Santa Claus brings them joy and peace and exciting presents in the morning (after entering the house through the chimney and eating the milk and cookies left out for Him?) A person who sets aside 2 hours every Sunday to go heap praise upon Santa Claus, thank Him for the enjoyments of life, and ask Him for advice on how to proceed with a war in Iraq, or whether or not to allow life-saving experimentation based on stem cells, or whether to allow the family of a brain-dead woman in a permanent vegetative state to finally be able to let her die.

I don't know when the change will happen. All over the world, people are moving towards lack of belief, but I think it will take much longer for atheist politicians to become the norm.

(I wrote this post over the span of about an hour, stopping to do other stuff randomly in between. Plus I'm kinda tired and out of it. So forgive me if it doesn't make a ton of sense, or is a bit rambling or meandering or without a distinct exact point. Shrug.)