Active Member
Except that none of the kids in China died.Originally Posted by Frozen Beach
When is it a good time to talk about gun control? Is Tuesday afternoon fine with you?
People that don't wanna talk about control now, don't want to talk about it ever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country
Last edited by Deepvoid; 12-15-2012 at 02:06 PM.
Active Member
I'm not using it as an excuse, my genuine reaction to spree shootings is to think about gun culture and gun control.
He could have used a knife, and probably would have killed a lot less people - wouldn't that have been a better outcome?
The fact of the matter is, you don't have problems with people using knives, cars or baseball bats to commit spree killings the way you have problems with guns, so equating the two doesn't make sense.
I know someone who has used heroin for over 15 years and yet holds down a job, has no significant health problems... does that mean I think heroin is ok? No, because I wasn't raised in a culture that encourages me to defend heroin.
Who knows, maybe I'm just brainwashed and I should cut smack a break, because even though it produces so much horror, some shining examples can make it work
You say gun control wouldn't make you safer, but the UK has strict gun control and IS safer. We had 32 firearms deaths last year, you had 9000. We have 62 million people, you have 330 million. 32 x 5 does not = 9000, so what's wrong with your country?
FATUM NOS IUNGET
Exactly. All the NRA advocates, etc. believe that if you tighten gun control, the U.S. will instantly become some Orwellian state with all freedom a thing of the past. It baffles my mind that they just can't see a fact that a toddler could grasp. It's infuriating.
Reminds of this article that I read after the Aurora Dark Knight Rises shooting. Makes me wanna print it and staple it to a few Americans' foreheads.
24.24.2.2866
I don't think anybody is taking advantage of the situation to talk about how to prevent death in such ways, events like these are just constant reminders for us on already important discussions.
Stubby Member
Like I said after the Colorado TDKR shooting, we need more stringent gun control in the mental health area. As someone who has bought guns and does not support any kind of ban I clearly see the benefit of a mental health physical of sorts to buy a gun, if medication is involved that needs to be clearly made obvious to gun sellers and part of the overall process. I'm a pro-gun person, but this is clearly a problem and something needs to done to address it other than knee-jerk "let's ban guns" reactions.
Active Member
Yes personally I wouldn't ban guns either - contrary to (what seems to be) popular belief, we haven't banned guns in the UK. We had a school shooting, and so we banned semi automatics and certain pistols, and remaining weapons subject to some of the most stringent checks in the world. Many rifles & all Shotguns etc are still Kosher if you pass the tests.
Result? No school shootings since the mid 90s. In fact I think we've had 2-3 spree shooters in the past 20 years, and they never manage more than half a dozen murders. This is really something, and especially when you consider the UK encompasses Northern Ireland, subject to a diminished but ongoing civil conflict which you have nothing like in the US
When I saw your username I though "here we go", but I agree with your sentiments totally. USA is a democracy and clearly a lot of people want guns, so a compromise has to be struck
Last edited by Sutekh; 12-14-2012 at 06:36 PM.
Throbbing Member
urgh this story makes me fucking sick to the core.... 5 year old kids....jesus. it can't get much lower.
Throbbing Member
I just read the entire wikipedia entry on school shootings. Now I'm an expert and will charge a healthy fee to speak on TeeVee.
I ran across several points that challenged my own assumptions and opinions:
- Shooter Profiles: not many similarities can be found in their backgrounds, economic status or family life. The only commonalities are that most of the shooters are male (only two recorded female), most are on antidepressants, and to a lesser extent many are bullied.
- There are several cases in which an armed student or teacher has been able to stop or prevent a massacre.
- On the other hand, there are also examples of armed police not being able to stop or shorten one.
- The height of homicides in schools reached a peak in the early 90s. That decade saw the most school shooting deaths in the US by a significant margin.
- There was one teacher at Sandy Elementary who did have several guns: the shooter's mother. That's where he got all or most of his weaponry (this point is not in the wiki, but an article I just read).
What's the point? I don't entirely know, I'm just tired of having the same conversation over and over and wanted to try to understand a bit more about what was going on. From what I can gather these shootings are happening in an ecosystem. There is no single solution be it more guns, gun control or access to mental health. It should be noted also that our problems with seeking treatment for mental health issues aren't purely about access. Many people don't have any idea what's available to them, and are surrounded by a culture that ostracizes and shames the mentally ill. The UK may have banned handguns, and it definitely had a positive impact, but that's simply not going to happen in the US. The best we can hope for is more hoops for people to jump through when people are buying guns, and less hoops when seeking treatment for mental illness. Neither of these remedies will stop school shootings, which have been recorded as far back as the 1700s, but they will mostly likely reduce them.
Last edited by Magtig; 12-14-2012 at 07:21 PM.
Administrator
I would like to take this opportunity to link you all to a wikipedia article about a law that was passed in 1993. Gun control laws reduce gun violence. This is a demonstrable fact. Spend some time looking at the figures, or if you don't want to do that, look at this pretty chart.
Active Member
Yup. Control is going to be the most effective way, in the US. I like the way CA has been doing things. You not only have to pass background checks but you have to demonstrate basic safety & legal understandings of firearms (via test/certification) before you can buy them. I wish more states would do this. CA's bans on arbitrary gun parts is not a model to follow though.
Also, the control doesn't always have such a clear impact:
Throbbing Member
I think one thing that should become mandatory is for each teacher to get a proper introduction into teen and adolescent psychology. School shooters aren't always suffering from a mental illness, but the strain put on a growing and changing brain combined with n environmental factors (there are so many of them it's impossible to ever fully comprehend the phenomenon of school or workplace shootings completely) can lead a child with a healthy home life and no prior or developing illnesses to snap as easily as a child who actually is suffering from a mental illness. Understanding the psychology of teenagers and adolescents can lead to spotting early warning signs and taking them seriously.
Stubby Member
I can't remember where I heard it, but I'm reminded of this:
"Guns don't kill people - people kill people. Shouldn't that mean we keep guns away from people?"
Active Member
Bad comparison, the way people consume drugs and the way people consume weapons are totally different in terms of dynamics... peope's drug consumption is totally different to how people buy/consume weapons. Would anyone buy guns at the rate they buy weed, heroin, MDMA? Obviously not. By your logic we could say there's no point in making nuclear weapons or child porn illegal for people to own, as anything proscribed will inevitably be consumed in the EXACT same way (utter bollocks mate, come on!)
Have you really thought about what you're saying, or just looking for the first ostensibly plausible comparison?
The Western countries that have employed stringent gun control have enjoyed success in reducing gun crime - why don't you make that comparison? Because the facts won't reinforce your view of the situation, I daresay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Last edited by Sutekh; 12-14-2012 at 07:55 PM.
Active Member
I'm not the one making the comparison. I am pointing out how bad it is to compare China and USA laws.
and gun control does not equal gun prohibition... Talk about selectively creating a narrative.
Active Member
You said prohibition of any kind doesn't work in the USA... you then immediately pointed out an example of drug prohibition not working in China, presumably to prove that it won't work in USA?
That was a comparison... either that or you just arbitrarily decided to mention how some kinds of prohibition don't work in China, and how "it won't be very effective (in the USA)" immediately after that.
You're embarrassing yourself! if I have it wrong then please explain
Last edited by Sutekh; 12-14-2012 at 08:33 PM.
Active Member
no, not at all. go back and read it again
reading comprehension fail or you are trolling
Active Member
When talking about guns, you pointed out that drug prohibition in China isn't 100% successful. Either you decided to arbitrarily point out that fact for no reason at that specific point, or you pointed it out to illustrate that gun prohibition in America would fail the way drug prohibition in China has.
Here's what you just said ;
So what was your point? If not that gun prohibition would fail just like chinese drug prohibition has - which you have just said was not the point you were trying to make
I really don't know what to say? I know DRUG prohibition isn't effective - I acknowledged that when I said that the two things have different dynamics in terms of consumptionb
Last edited by Sutekh; 12-14-2012 at 08:49 PM.
Active Member
and nice job ignoring the fact that prohibition does not equal control.
Active Member
holy shit dude... how??
prohibition works in China, it doesn't work in USA. That is what I said. How the fuck you see that as "prohibition doesn't work in China" is beyond me. That is why comparing China and USA prohibition is silly.
Are you still ignoring the fact that prohibition is very different compared to control and that you cant just use the two interchangeably?
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 12-14-2012 at 08:56 PM.
Active Member
What do you mean by "works"? People still engage in the trafficking and consumption of contraband, that's why prohibition doesn't work in China. China has a LOT of drug addicts. In what way is Prohibition working?
I'm sorry if I've got you wrong - what exactly where you trying to say? I honestly thought you were saying that outright state control of certain things won't lead to civilians ending their abuse of said things... I assumed you were equating Chinese drugs with American guns - what were you actually saying?
And I think you're using the two interchangeably here - I made it clear in my reply to 50 volt that I think control is what the US needs - not outright banning -, and you alone have seen "prohibition" as something being proposed here
Last edited by Sutekh; 12-14-2012 at 09:05 PM.
Active Member
China has much less drug use than the USA. I am saying that this demonstrates a more effective drug prohibition in China than the USA. Therefore, it isn't a good justification to say that any of China's success with gun prohibition is a justification for doing in the USA.
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 12-14-2012 at 09:23 PM.
House Always Wins
What I hate is when morons do this they always commit suicide at the end. Fucking off yourself without involving other people. Probably the main reason they do this is to not get tried or convicted but still...
Throbbing Member
I agree. If you plan to kill yourself in the end then just skip to the fucking end. I'll never understand how anyone could bring themselves to commit such atrocities. I'll never give them the excuse of being mentally unstable or insane. As far as I'm concerned these people are whiney self centered thick as shit scumbags and deserve to be tortured.
Sorry, don't mean to rant. Just hearing about these sort of things depresses and angers me. Much love to all those who have to cope with the damage this idiot has caused. I can't even begin to imagine how hard this must be for them
Active Member
(flame suit on)
Wow. Now, I really haven't read much on this story yet (just had my own family loss, so really not in the mood), so I'm not going to say whether I believe this guy had extreme issues versus just being a bad egg. But I can't let your statement go...are you just completely and utterly oblivious to how the human body works? When I read your above quote, I see "Alzheimer's is bullshit, those old fucks are just forgetful". Like it or not, people can actually be truly incapable of what you or I would call rational thought. Sometimes the result relatively harmless, but sometimes, it can lead to violence towards others. Your attitude towards mental disorders is painfully ignorant, and it's views like this that make it so difficult to try to actually help people.
Administrator
Rather than rehash, I'm going to link to my wife's blog post about the topic of mental illness in the wake of the Aurora shooting.
As I became more directly aware of mental illness (I have a literally-crazy mother-in-law) I really began to see modern cultures in a very different light. The mentally ill are subjects of mockery, both gentle and extreme, and as evidenced by friends-of-friends on facebook, they are characterized as practically supernatural. If you have conservative-leaning friends in conservative parts of the country, look at what their friends are saying. This is evil! This is Satan's work! This man is a monster!I try not to be utterly defined by the fact that I grew up with a mentally ill parent, but there's no doubt that it has done its part in shaping who I am and how I react to certain tragedies. A few years ago, I came to the decision that I was sick and tired of feeling uncomfortable talking about it, and I started opening my eyes to the way the stigma and silence and ignorance surrounding mental illness make the whole situation significantly worse for my mother, my family, and everyone else in the world who is touched by mental illness in some way. I want to do what little I can to change that, so I try and talk about mental illness frankly and openly and often publicly. It might be a futile endeavor, because the more you realize how easy it is for most people to dehumanize the mentally ill, the more overwhelmed you become by the enormity of the problem.
Except no. These aren't people who deserve to be tortured. They are people who live with daily mental torture you really cannot understand until you've lived with someone with severe mental illness. And a lot of it can be treated, but not in a country where quality health care comes with an incredible price tag.
To write this off as an excuse for the existence of evil spirits, to proclaim that torturing people like this somehow will justify anything - I'm at a loss for words as to how I describe that kind of thinking. It's not thinking. It's a purely emotional response. It's oblivious to observed reality.
Throbbing Member
Looking back at my post it was a pretty ignorant thing to say and I appologize. However I can't help but feel animosity to all these murderers, regardless of why they did it. I just get tired of hearing about all these shootings and murders. It seems to just be getting worse and worse. At any rate, sorry for the comment and sorry to hear about your loss
Stubby Member
China's way of enforcing laws in general is far different than the U.S. Comparing an authoritarian regime with a democratic country isn't the best way to make your point. I'm sure drug enforcement is also much more severe in China.
I understand that if someone wants to buy a gun badly enough they'll find a way, but limiting ways for mentally unstable people to get a hold of weapons will go a long way to ensure acts of mass murder don't happen as frequently as they are occurring now. I'm fine with people having a six-shooter at home to protect themselves or someone having a hunting rifle for sport. On the other hand, assault rifles and high-capacity magazines serve no purpose in everyday life - it's meant for the battlefield. When the 2nd amendment was made they didn't have guns that enabled a single person to inflict mass casualties in a matter of seconds; not every right given in the 1700's should be applied verbatim in 2012.
Active Member
That is EXACTLY my point. Without lots of human rights violations (as mentioned in my first post) and government oppression we won't see effective gun prohibition in the USA. I don't think a single person asking for gun prohibition in the USA is ready to say that we need that level of enforcement
You are back to talking about control, not prohibition. My comment applies only to prohibition.I understand that if someone wants to buy a gun badly enough they'll find a way, but limiting ways for mentally unstable people to get a hold of weapons will go a long way to ensure acts of mass murder don't happen as frequently as they are occurring now. I'm fine with people having a six-shooter at home to protect themselves or someone having a hunting rifle for sport. On the other hand, assault rifles and high-capacity magazines serve no purpose in everyday life - it's meant for the battlefield. When the 2nd amendment was made they didn't have guns that enabled a single person to inflict mass casualties in a matter of seconds; not every right given in the 1700's should be applied verbatim in 2012.
Throbbing Member
Hmmm.
This would probably happen a lot less frequently in the US, if the US hurried up and banned guns.
See when this happened in Scotland? In the Dunblane Massacre? We banned guns in the UK. There's been a lot less shootings since then. Because we're not all a bunch of psychos and we handed in our guns.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who advocates gun ownership in the US from now on wants to kill children.
Throbbing Member
That's easier said than done in the United States. The Second Amendment in our Bill of Rights says that the people have a right to keep and bear arms. I can agree with banning assault rifles and automatic weapons because neither are designed for hunting or for self-defense. However, an all-out ban on firearms requires a Constitutional amendment that I have a feeling would not be able to be ratified.
And are you saying that hunters who are responsible and have enough sense to keep their guns locked up and unloaded in the house, and who have taught their own children gun safety and responsibility, are child-killers?
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