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Faceplams: It's estimated that there are already 270 million guns in the United States. All owned by private citizens. That's "an average of about nine guns for every 10 Americans."Originally Posted by Deepvoid
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It's estimated that there are already 270 million guns in the United States. All owned by private citizens. That's "an average of about nine guns for every 10 Americans."
Last edited by allegro; 01-20-2013 at 06:51 PM.
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This is one of the many examples of government oppression of the past. This is one of the larger instances where gun control is very closely linked with oppression. However, there are much more recent ones. It was only a few years ago when almost half the country though we should be restricting/infringing the rights of Muslims in this country in the name of SAFETY. If we decided to start throwing Muslims in "relocation camps" (like the Japanese internments of only 80 years back) I sure HOPE that there would be enough armed citizens to stand up against that kind of bullshit. I felt that we were slowly reducing the bigotry in this country but the 9/11 Muslim rage surprised me. We are definitely not beyond doing that crap again. This country is constantly acting inappropriately based on fear/safety (ahem, gun control!).
edit: and I am fully aware that gun rights didn't prevent the Japanese internments. Different freedoms are used to stop or undo wrongdoings. Sometimes it's the legal system, sometimes it is nonviolent protest, sometimes violent protest, sometimes it is free speech at a national level, etc. Every situation is different.
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 01-21-2013 at 12:49 AM.
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Anyone remember when the NRA and Ronald Reagan (then CA governor) were pushing FOR gun control in the late 1960's? That was targeted directly at the Black Panthers. This was a time when the african american civil rights movement was in full swing. The Black Panthers armed themselves as a way to protect their communities from the rampant abuse from the police. Reagan outlawed they carrying of loaded guns in CA to stop this.
It's crazy how the politics of gun control have changed.
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 01-21-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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Planned Parenthood used to be the darling organization of the Republican Party until they were accused, by civil rights activists, of eugenics.
And now black people in Chicago are using guns to kill each other
edit: also, Reagan supported the Brady bill in 1994, for reasons entirely unrelated to anything other than the fact that he got shot.
Last edited by allegro; 01-21-2013 at 11:08 AM.
Active Member
The figure I had was over 300 million guns. with 88.8 guns per 100 persons. That's close to your numbers.
http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news...n-america?lite
I asked the question fully knowing the response and I have to agree that the future is grim. That's why I think that gun control is necessary so at least you can try to stop those numbers to dramatically increase over the next decade or it will reach catastrophic levels.
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Actually, why ever change any laws? You never know if old situations return! History teaches us they do!
You know how the U.S. has all these illegal immigrants now, and this seems to be a huge problem? Wouldn't have happened if you hadn't abolished slavery. Slavery's actually a really rational system of dealing with superfluous people who lack indivual power or resources to contribute to society - to hell with health care and food stamps and all that rot: slavery's a brilliant idea, if you think about it. It's also an easy way to get rid of prisoners of war: instead of having to pay for their trial and following incarceration, or sending them back even more pissed off than before, you just work them to death on your fields. Brilliant!
While we're at it: why not just return to the crown? With international trade agreements becoming increasingly important, the Commonwealth seems like a pretty good idea. It offers trade protection as well as an increased voice in international politics and added military power. And I'm sure the U.K. won't mind seeing 'the special relationship' turned back to something which doesn't leave the U.K. public fucked over time after time.
And to solve the problem of single motherhood, which is still an indicator of poverty and future criminal behaviour in teens and adolescents, why not just go back to the old system of heritage: women don't get a penny, leaving them forced to be married or give up their children to orphenages. It has the added benefit of upperclass women being removed from the workforce, which would lower the unemployment rate dramatically (especially paired with slavery).
See, our ancestors were pretty smart: they looked ahead, they knew we'd be in trouble. But we, in our youthful arrogance, thought changing stuff was 'progress'. How silly of us! How silly to think that with changing times, changing technology and changing knowledge, our laws would need updating! Shame on us for daring to change even one letter. In future, people will bemoan that we westerners ever thought of abolishing slavery, allowing women to vote and limiting the right to bear arms....
What, that's too ridiculous? It's called a mirror friend.
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I don't know that we can "stop" the numbers. I think they've been pretty level. We have collectors who own more than one gun. A lot of people don't even shoot the gun(s) they own. You Canadians have guns, but you aren't living in the same kind of culture as us Americans. You don't have the drugs and gangs problems that we do, either. Crime accounts for a LOT of our shootings and gun deaths. And gun control won't help that at all.
I remember when New York City was a sewer. In 1979, I was in Times Square for New Year'a Eve and it was a seedy crime-ridden Hell. At the Port Authority, you'd see prostitutes and junkies all over the place. But then NYC cracked down on crime and really cleaned things up. This required what many considered to be violations of their rights (searches without warrants, stop and frisk without just cause) but that's a difficult balance: civil rights for you vs. human rights (the right to live) for others. Existing laws simply had to be ENFORCED and new laws gave law enforcement the teeth and new budgets gave them the money to enforce the peace.
The "cancer" isn't guns, The "cancer" is crime. Which is probably caused by poverty, racial inequality, lack of adequate education, etc. We can't cure one without curing them all.
Last edited by allegro; 01-22-2013 at 05:51 PM.
Active Member
Yup. Gun violence hasn't been building up to some insane level. It's been dropping for the last ~20 years. When you look at the national numbers and drill down, you see that gun violence (and all violence) is much more of an issue in areas of poverty and higher population.
NPR did a segment on guns in Oakland. The "good people" all want to have guns to protect themselves. They know the police are unable to protect them. Everyone they know has guns too. The "bad people" all have illegally owned guns.
In addition to enforcing existing laws and targeting crime, we could make some serious improvements by ending the drug war.
Active Member
But not before Reagan reversed his stance on gun control, the NRA adopted the Black Panther's ideology on gun control... then the NRA backed Reagan for president!
As a moderate libertarian, it's always interesting to see the polar shifts between right/left ideology.
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Yea, except for the part where not a single thing you listed actually increases or maintains freedom.
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^ I thought she was using sarcism.
Yeah, Democrats used to be pro-slavery.
Active Member
This is what's wrong 4:25. "Rights do not come from Congress but from God & the Constitution."
I think that further from gun control and whatever laws that you can or cannot enforce, let's go back to the basic. Religion/Bible is way too omnipresent in your country. It's literally scary.
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We do have a separation of church and state firmly in place. When "God" is used, it's a loose overall term. God wasn't put on our money or in our Pledge of Allegiance until we became terrified of communism in the 1950s.
Many people use fear tactics to try to polarize this country. It all basically comes back to racism. They'll deny that, but they're liars. There are a LOT of really ignorant and unqualified elected members of the House of Representatives. You may too young to remember the Moral Majority and Jerry Falwell. Trust me, it was WORSE back then.
The transcription on that video ^ is HILARIOUS!! Senator joe car keys? Summer t (sovereignty)? I think a 10-yr-old transcribed that video.
Last edited by allegro; 01-21-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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Excuse me, gun violence has not dropped for the last 20 years in Mexico, on the opposite, it has gone all the way up. 83% of the guns that the Mexican army seizes (from drug cartels) are semi-automatic guns smuggled from the USA. I could provide you a link, but it's in Spanish.
A lot of American citizens and politicians (and the NRA) ignore that they are not alone on this problem. Face the truth: the gun control status-quo in this country has had terrible spill-over effects in other countries.
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True; it's affected Canada, too.
tempus est umbra in mente
You know what they say about statistics (right)?
Either way, you shouldn't be disappointed to find out that a majority of the "44%" from that survey are probably the ardent 2nd amendment "you'll take my guns from my cold dead hands" crowd. I don't think they'll be taking up arms to defend the US Muslim population from the tyranny of the US government any time soon, as ridiculous as that notion is on so many levels anyway.
How many "armed citizens" would it take in your view anyway?
FATUM NOS IUNGET
Quoted for fuckin' truth.
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Go figure, the hoplophobe has a distorted view of gun owners. The pro-gun people who also are anti-civil rights are a minority of gun owners. That doesn't confim your beliefs quite like a hyperbolic Fox News persona, does it?
And this doesn't even tough the libertarian's who are very much about civil rights.
FATUM NOS IUNGET
I consider myself a hoplophobe through and through. Wouldn't say I'm afraid of firearms as much of the people that use them, but still. Bullets are probably quite painful. I asked before, but didn't really get an answer. Can anyone tell me the last time a well-armed citizen wearing their 2nd Amendment superhero outfit jumped through the window and saved the day against a rifle toting maniac shooting up a bunch of kids? I mean, I get the whole 'HANDS OFF MY GUNS, OBAMA!' idiots that feel that the U.S. is going to be an Orwellian totalitarian lockdown state within a week or two (the same people that said the country would be on fire within weeks when Romney lost...even though...yeah, the rest of us with brains just laughed)... but still. I've looked high and low for any articles that defended the idiocy of these people with an actual scenario that happened but can't find any.
Active Member
I was talking about the USA.
Funny you should mention Mexico though, a place where guns are illegal. I previously mentioned that ending the drug war would do way more for gun crime in the US than any form of gun control. Ending the US drug war would also have a huge positive impact on crime in Mexico.
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here is a collection of about 450 instances of defensive gun use (that made it to the media) in the last 5 months. http://www.reddit.com/r/dgu
The indiscriminate attacks are much less common than things like burglaries and home intrusions. Yet, even the first page, you'll see that a gun owner stopped some guy who went crazy with a knife and started stabbing people in public.
How about the guy who stopped a shooting rampage ? I'm sure there are more in there but that's more examples than you asked for and it's not going to make you magically change your stance, especially from a self proclaimed hoplophobe.
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We don't have a ton of cases of people running into schools and shooting kids; that's why it's news.
We have a LOT of instances of kids being shot by gang members. Which nobody seems to care about. Like, 500+ school kids shot in 16 months in Chicago, alone. Due to drug sales and gang turf wars and just stupid gang members who can't shoot worth a shit. The kids are innocent bystanders, not gang members. It's likely that none of those guns are actually legal or were obtained through legal channels.
People here are scared. That's why so many people owned handguns in Chicago while they were technically banned.
It's like the fucking OK Corral.
We also have people who do evil things without guns, like the guys who blew up a day care center. We choose to call it a "Terrorist Act" because "Stupid killing by some militant nut jobs" doesn't make us feel warm and fuzzy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
Last edited by allegro; 01-21-2013 at 05:39 PM.
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I knew what you were talking about the USA, my point was that those on the "gun-lobbyist" side often ignore the consequences the 2nd. amendment has in other countries. Or rather, some (emphasis intended)Americans tend to be self-centered, and are out of touch with the realities in other parts of the world. Who cares if what I choose to do or favor in my country can kill people in other countries. It doesn't matter at all.
I do agree that ending the drug war, or in other words, legalizing drugs, will positively impact Mexico/Central America. I was actually quite pleased with the "marihuana" laws that passed in some states in the last elections.
FATUM NOS IUNGET
Thanks, should be some pretty interesting reading. (also, I'm not actually a hoplophobe, but am impressed by your big words!)
I'm so weird that when I see things like 'ski mask toting gunman thwarted by other gun toting heroes' my first though isn't 'gee! wow, hooray for the 2nd Amendment!'...I usually go back to the start (something the NRA are a tad bit obtuse to ever do, it seems) and think 'what if that first asshole didn't even have the gun to begin with? no need for the entire chain of events to happen at all.'
Active Member
To quote Trent Reznor, and related to my previous post: "Don't give a shit about the temperature in Guatemala, don't really see what all the fuss is about". You'll probably see why I chose this quote in this argument.
Bent Member
He did not say that the majority of gun owners are anti-civil rights. He said the majority of assholes who believe that Muslims should have their rights restricted in this country are also likely "you'll take my arms out of my cold dead hands" people.
Last edited by jessamineny; 01-21-2013 at 05:57 PM. Reason: I'm sick, and that last part was crabby
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Well, yea, that's true, but as has been said, before, there are over 280 million guns already owned in the United States. That's only counting the legally-owned guns. We can't undo that without declaring martial law and going door-to-door with searches and seizures. Which of course is a problem under our rights per the Constitution. So, yea, we can't undo what's already out there. We can't ban the guns, either, and turn 9 out of 10 Americans into criminals. Because of our rights and also because it just isn't possible to enforce it. "Get rid of the guns" just isn't an option.
See this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ocon/guns.html
Last edited by allegro; 01-21-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the gun control "think of the children" tears on day one of the Sandy shooting. Those people didn't shed any tears for all the children that were murdered with Obama's drones by using their tax money. We could fix most of our monetary problems if we stopped most of the bullshit military operations outside our borders. But you know... the whole fear thing... seems to really control this country. Gotta have the government constantly protecting you!
I'm also pissed that the US government intentionally passed 2000 guns into the hands of criminals in Mexico.
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Seriously, it's similar to the issue of nuclear weapons in this world.
It's funny, I didn't own a single gun until a few days before the Sandy shooting. Hell, I was against personally owning a gun up until a couple years ago. I guess having a kid probably changed it (for both me and my wife).
I'd say that 90% of what I know about guns and gun law was acquired in the last 2 months (a bit is from your posts actually!). I've spent a decent amount of time at the range breaking in my gun. Once Sandy happened and Obama started talking about gun laws, the range got PACKED. The shelves have been completely empty and everything deeply backordered. A very large majority of the people trying to buy are first-time gun owners. I'd be interested in the numbers of gun sales triggered by gun control compared to the number of gun sales that are stopped by the same gun control. I suspect a net positive in gun ownership.
edit: I should mention this is for the San Francisco bay area, a heavily democratic location.
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 01-21-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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"Do not patronize the passionate supporters of your opponents by looking down your nose at them. A lot of these people live in a world very different from the world lived in by the people proposing these things. I know because I come from this world." - Bill Clinton - Jan 14, 2013
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