Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[allegro]

Why wouldn't they close the "loophole" that exists outside of gunshows as well? Seems silly to limit the scope. There are plenty of ways for private transactions to occur outside of gun shows. We all know how much the internet has enabled people to conduct private transactions.

ALL loopholes should be closed. I can't see how NRA nuts can argue that, I can't see how they'd disagree with Federal national background checks, even when you buy ammo from the Internet. All these laws should apply not only to guns but to ammo. Here in Illinois, you must show a FOID card to buy not only a gun, but also ammo. Makes sense.

[DigitalChaos]

I guess I don't understand the logic of proponents of gun control scoping down the issue of lowered requirements on private transfers to "the gun show loophole"
A lot of the gun control legislation just seems incredibly flawed right out of the box. Add in horrible execution/enforcement and well... we have this!

[DigitalChaos]

I am unsure about the restriction of ammunition though. If all you are doing is the equivalent of background checks, cool. Even Switzerland does that and they are always an example of a country that is full of guns but low on crime. As long as it doesn't start turning into limits on how much you can buy per month or something like that.

[Deepvoid]

If I wasn't arguing, this thread would just be a circle-jerk. There is certainly no way it would ever hit 13 pages by now!

But seriously, can we turn this into the "Gun news, law, and shooting of children" thread or something? The Random General Headlines thread keeps getting filled with gun crap (largely from Deepvoid suddenly caring about gun news that has existed long before Sandy)

I'm interested in the subject .. sorry??
It's nice debating here because there's no name calling. Try that on youtube!

[Presideo]

You know, I did some research on this "gun show" thing and according to this, Illinois closed the gun show loophole.

See this: http://www3.illinois.gov/PressReleas...83&SubjectID=1

I was talking about the most popular ways U.S criminals acquire guns in general, not just Illinois. I understand you we talking specifically about Chicago in your original statement, though - my mistake. It's great that some states have taken the initiative to close a loophole federal law created. It's fucked up that states have to go out of their way to fix longstanding flaws in federal law, and the majority of states still haven't fixed the loophole, but I guess it's still better than nothing.

That's the problem though. Every time you close one "loophole" it just means people have to go up one level in the chain or simply find an alternative.

There's always going to be criminals trying to acquire guns, but that doesn't mean we should actively give them easy ways to do so. Closing loops and fixing flaws in existing laws doesn't just apply to gun control, it applies to laws in general. If a law doesn't work well enough, we should change the law until it does.

Do you have a fix to the situation where someone legally buys a gun and then illegally transfers it? A fix other than not letting that person legally buy the gun?

No direct fix, but there are definitely ways to slow down illegal gun transfers. (1) restrict how many guns one person can buy: limit a person to one gun purchase a year. This real life, not Rambo. One gun purchase a year is more than enough firepower to keep a person safe. (2) Create a waiting period for a person to acquire a gun. No walking into a Wal-Mart and leaving with a gun on the same day.

I know, these fixes aren't perfect, but limiting quantity and creating a lag for gun purchases certainly makes it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns.

[DigitalChaos]

Closing loops and fixing flaws in existing laws doesn't just apply to gun control, it applies to laws in general. If a law doesn't work well enough, we should change the law until it does.

The problem is that we seem to simply ADD more laws on top of the bad ones. The bigger issue is that we ADD laws on top of existing when the core issue is enforcement. I still believe that most of our gun issues are solvable by ramping up enforcement of existing law.

No direct fix, but there are definitely ways to slow down illegal gun transfers. (1) restrict how many guns one person can buy: limit a person to one gun purchase a year. This real life, not Rambo. One gun purchase a year is more than enough firepower to keep a person safe. (2) Create a waiting period for a person to acquire a gun. No walking into a Wal-Mart and leaving with a gun on the same day.

I know, these fixes aren't perfect, but limiting quantity and creating a lag for gun purchases certainly makes it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns.

In CA we have a 1 handgun every 1 months with a 10 day wait period after purchase. Oakland is still fucked. I don't know if bumping it to 1 every 12mo would do anything. No way to say for sure.

Nobody can buy guns in Chicago but they still have horrible gun issues.

[DigitalChaos]

Also, you mentioned a focus on federal law. I still think it would be a better idea to let states try to sort it out until we find something that we know works. 50 different test environments vs 1. Also, much more potent law per state vs a single, watered down and very compromised federal law.

[Magtig]

Gun Talk. It's like Coffee Talk but with more dead children.

[DigitalChaos]

Gun Talk. It's like Coffee Talk but with more dead children.

Gun talk!

So, ETS gun geeks, what's your favorite personal defense round? I am experimenting with these, they have good expansion with no jacket separation:

[allegro]

is this for gun and ammo talk, too?? I think if we talk about guns in this thread, we will get piled. Why in the hell people need hollow points is beyond me.

In the world of target ranges, people are all over the places. On their hands and knees collecting brass to re-load their own ammo and shit. It's also a very very expensive hobby, which is partly why I got out of it. Ammo ain't cheap. Which is why serious target practice people are on their hands and knees collecting that brass.

One time, I was at the long gun range, watching, and there was a guy there shooting a black powder gun. It gives you a whole new perspective as to why so many people died in the Civil War.

[Fixer808]

I think DigitalChaos is just trolling...

[DigitalChaos]

is this for gun and ammo talk, too?? I think if we talk about guns in this thread, we will get piled. Why in the hell people need hollow points is beyond me.

In the world of target ranges, people are all over the places. On their hands and knees collecting brass to re-load their own ammo and shit. It's also a very very expensive hobby, which is partly why I got out of it. Ammo ain't cheap. Which is why serious target practice people are on their hands and knees collecting that brass.

One time, I was at the long gun range, watching, and there was a guy there shooting a black powder gun. It gives you a whole new perspective as to why so many people died in the Civil War.

If someone makes a gun/ammo thread I'd gladly participate. I'm fine using this thread too. Eventually there will be another topic that takes national attention; might as well use this one! I spent the last 10 months researching guns, taking classes, and practicing at the range. I bought my first one a few days before Sandy. Now the only gun talk people want to do is about mass shootings.

I have hollow points for the same reason the police do. They make much larger wound cavities, doesn't penetrate through walls as much, etc. Much better for personal defense in most situations.

The cost of ammo is one of the big reasons I chose 9mm over the larger calibers. I'm afraid of reloads but I do buy in bulk whenever possible. I picked up 3000 rounds last month. Now I don't have to deal with the ammo shortage and price gouging that happened. I also just picked up a bore laser + laser target (literally just delivered). That'll cut down on practice cost while also letting me practice outside the range.

Your .22 is neat. Are you always a .22 shooter? I thought about getting a 22 for introducing friends to shooting. After getting my own, I discovered a bunch of friends in the area who have never shot before but are interested. Although, a ruger 10/22 dropped into a PS90 look-a-like case would be hilarious for the "ZOMG ASSAULT WEAPON" effect. I mean, come on, just look at this thing! It's CA legal too!

[DigitalChaos]

[Jinsai]

Cute. What a shitty comic.

"What, nothing to say?" YES. I actually do have something to say. And so does anyone with half a brain who is presented with this false equivalency.

A failed strategic strike against a terrorist threat that backfired and resulted in civilian casualties is completely unrelated to a person/lunatic marching into a classroom and intentionally shooting children. Drawing that comparison not only obfuscates the point, but it is a disgusting distraction from BOTH discussions which serves only to trivialize any point that anybody could possibly make.

also, fuck.

And, keep posting stuff like this while you make statments along the lines of "while it paaaaains me to agree with teh republicans..."
Sooner or later you'll realize the libertarians are ostensibly the "new republican" party.

I think DigitalChaos is just trolling

I would like to believe that, but I don't entirely

[Sutekh]

Yes, I hate agitprop that assumes people are totally ignorant. We know these things happen, and we wouldn't consider ourselves exonerated from collective guilt just because we've written a condescending comic.

In other news, no high powered weapons in private ownership in Britain, distinct lack of high casualty spree killings. People not held to ransom left and right by criminals with firearms. Top UK minds struggling to figure out exactly in what way we are supposed to have fucked up.

[allegro]

I have hollow points for the same reason the police do. They make much larger wound cavities, doesn't penetrate through walls as much, etc. Much better for personal defense in most situations.

But more expensive and useless at a target range. I don't intend to use a gun to hurt anyone ever. I only do target range sport. I rely on my local law enforcement to do their jobs.

Are you always a .22 shooter? I thought about getting a 22 for introducing friends to shooting.

Yes. Except a single action 6, not the exact one in that video.

In other news, no high powered weapons in private ownership in Britain, distinct lack of high casualty spree killings. People not held to ransom left and right by criminals with firearms. Top UK minds struggling to figure out exactly in what way we are supposed to have fucked up.

You know, it's sad but true. I remember when these weapons first started appearing here, no range allowed them. I thought to myself, how on Earth is this stuff even allowed to be in civilian hands? Yet nearly every dude I knew at the time wanted one, like it was some kind of dick-extender.

[DigitalChaos]

^
Oh, I don't use hollow point for the range, other than making sure it cycles properly in the intended gun. That'd be like setting money on fire.

[DigitalChaos]

YES. I actually do have something to say. And so does anyone with half a brain

Right

[DigitalChaos]

Sooner or later you'll realize the libertarians are ostensibly the "new republican" party.

That's the goal! We've done more to dismantle the GOP than anyone else.
PS - With the disappointing Obama presidency (expanded Bush policies, Iraq and Afghanistan continuation, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, PATRIOT Act reauth, DHS and TSA expansion, Gitmo still open, War on drugs continuation and escalation, Gay marriage still illegal, deportation of millions of illegal immigrants, prosecuted more wistleblowers than all other presidents combined, corporate handouts, signed the NDAA, etc) we are seeing quite a few democrats jump over to the libertarian party. Even this knee-jerk gun control crap is sending some over.

thanks

[Jinsai]

Uh, I'm not sure what you're thanking me for. Did Ron Paul just get elected president or something while I was sleeping? Either way, you're welcome... I guess?

Also, if this thread is going to turn into a hobby chat about favorite guns and what kind of ammo rocks your boat, maybe it doesn't belong in the news segment of the board?

But as long as it is still here: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...olice-say?lite

[Magtig]

I own a gun, and I grew up around gun owners. My grandfather taught me to shoot when I was 10 or 11. For many years I've remained sympathetic to gun owners and gun rights, but I just can't do it anymore. The longer this national "debate" continues, the more I see gun advocates for what they are: paranoid and selfish. Insanely selfish.

Yes, we already have gun control laws, but they've been cowed by people like Todd Tiahrt (watch both videos, the second one starts automatically), who argues that the ATF (which has had no director for 6 years, and only has 2,500 agents to deal with tobacco, alcohol, 100,000 gun dealers and 300,000,000 guns) is supposed to control guns while simultaneously stripping them of any real power. The notion that this is some sort of knee-jerk reaction by a bunch of liberal hippies is fucking disgusting. The glib and condescending nature of the gun advocates echoes the mental sickness of the NRA itself.

[DigitalChaos]

Speaking of loopholes... here are two new loopholes in one! (jump to 2:30)

[Corvus T. Cosmonaut]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...myth-john-lott

Gun-control advocates have recently been throwing around an impressive new number. President Obama used it last Wednesday, claiming: “as many as 40 percent of guns are purchased without a background check.” (...)

Actually, the number reported was a bit lower, 36 percent, and as we will see the true number of guns “sold” without check is closer to 10 percent. More important, the number comes from a 251-person survey on gun sales two decades ago, early in the Clinton administration. More than three-quarters of the survey covered sales before the Brady Act instituted mandatory federal background checks on February 28, 1994. In addition, guns are not sold in the same way today that they were sold two decades ago.

[DigitalChaos]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...myth-john-lott

It's funny how doing a background check with missing records from half the states (and many federal agencies) is something that placates the gun control people because they don't know any better. I've come to expect this from people who want the government to do everything for them. Hey, maybe we could get Goldman Sachs to take over the US Treasury for us while we are fixing all your problems!

The only people talking about it seem to be MAIG: www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/maig_mimeo_revb.pdf

[Corvus T. Cosmonaut]

Or they do know better and they prefer it to no checks at all; background checks' effectiveness may be dubious at best, yet this failing is seen as something that can be addressed through careful legislation. These checks are popular among both gun owners and those that would never touch a firearm, each of whom are approaching the issue from different trajectories and philosophical bent, with varying degrees of knowledge (and lack of) on both sides.

Though it may involve concerns about government overreach, it isn't really a 'want[ing] the government to do everything for them' issue.

[cahernandez]

Gun Violence in U.S. Cities Compared to the Deadliest Nations in the World:

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/pol...ns-world/4412/

Check out that article, it shows a map comparing the gun murders in the US compared to cities around the world. Washington DC is twice as dangerous as Mexico (the country as a whole)! And Baltimore is right up there with Colombia. And then we get all those silly travel warnings from the Department of State. You might as well get killed in NOLA.

[october_midnight]

[Jinsai]

/\ /\ /\
yes, this is hilarious, but... check out the way this is being touted by the right as a great victory. I mean, of course Piers Morgan is kind of a dipshit, but he owned these morons, but not according to these fools: http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/gun-gir...-piers-morgan/

It's astounding

Maybe they're all just fantasizing about fucking the girl on the left (the one who doesn't look like a sociopathic cartoon)

[october_midnight]

Ugh that's frightening to read. I also will agree, Piers Morgan is a putz, but it's amazing how he'll have people like this or Alex 'A Beautiful Mind' Jones, and will just ask a question...and they freeze or try to change the topic. I love how Morgan always just keeps his cool. The old adage of making a maniac lose their cool even more just by keeping yours lol.

[Jinsai]

that "interview" with Alex Jones was so bizarre