Twiggys abuse/rape allegations

[Sarah K]

Why the hell is my comment in there? Re-read the definition of rape apology and re-read my post and you'll discover my post doesn't fit the fucking definition. Fuck you for accusing me of doing such a thing.

"We're having a discussion on a nine inch nails forum, calm down."

[playwithfire]

Up to 10% of rape apologist reports are false accusations. Think about what that can do to a person, Sarah.

Also, I'm pretty sure I added an edit pretty quickly after the post initially went up, I *think* prior to their response, clarifying that not all of those screenshots were necessarily literal rape apology, merely fucky and insensitive, but today I have learned that being called a rape apologist is a real injustice

[Dryalex12]

The vast, vast majority of rapes are carried out by people the victims are very familiar with - friends, family members, parters, etc. The portrayal of rapists being scary people hiding out in dark alleys I think clouds a lot of people's perceptions of what rape is and is not. And I think that in turn, that makes it difficult to come to terms with how widespread this problem actually is. We want to believe that sexual assault is carried out by "bad" people. And while that IS the case, those bad people are also our friends, our neighbors, musicians we admire, our family members, our partners, etc. And it becomes difficult for people to come to terms with those conflicting ideas.

k i'm gonna go out and say that I KNOW rape isn't what people think it is in movies just like how I know RPG's don't make a fireball explosion. I know it can happen with anyone, fucking look at Ted Bundy, people didn't believe he could be the killer cuz he looked "so good looking"....least I think that's what happened, I could be horribly wrong on that. But I do know not to take what is shown in stuff like movies very seriously without looking at true facts. I've said it before this thread was here and as you pointed out, Fuck twiggy if he did it, Fuck her if she lied, simple.....and I think that's what people are trying to say.....but are failing very bad at it....and im also referring to you @playwithfire .

I would LIKE AND HOPE to think the everyone here knows that it's more common then you think, IT'S A VERY BIG DEAL and I don't think anyone is saying it is excusable and i'm sure all of you accusing one another of it is purely by a fuck up with how you worded it.....like I did.

I guess Manson really does bring out the worse in all of us....i'm not sure how I feel about this either.

[playwithfire]

Bud, my ~actual serious opinion~ is that I believe her, and that I think Jeordie is a piece of shit and I hope he is ostracized by his friends and family and maybe, maybe, one day takes responsibility for what he did, keeps himself far away from anyone he's hurt, and tries to contribute some good to the world.

HOWEVER, the fact that people are using this instance as an opportunity to talk about how rape accusations ruin lives/there are two sides of every story/what about false rape accusations, is just shitty and insensitive at best, and rape apology at worst. (There's a spectrum of fuckery.) Have those conversations. Why have them HERE and NOW?

For some reason, I don't feel like dignifying that with a measured response. But, I do feel like addressing it in a way I think is fitting. Cool thx.

[Airbornefeline]

"We're having a discussion on a nine inch nails forum, calm down."

good job copy and pasting that. very witty. i said that in response to someone making a crazy analogy implying i'm going up to the rape victim and questioning her myself when literally all we're doing is talking on a forum that no one of significance will ever read. Surely you can see the difference between that and someone accusing me of something as fucked up as being a rape apologist just to win an argument

[playwithfire]

hope this helps

fwiw, I'm not losing too much sleep over if the above is all literal rape apology, because settling into "wow y'all are being fucky and insensitive at a highly unfortunate time" feels sufficient to me. House on fire, talking about drowning victims, etc.

[Airbornefeline]

Up to 10% of rape apologist reports are false accusations. Think about what that can do to a person, Sarah.

Also, I'm pretty sure I added an edit pretty quickly after the post initially went up, I *think* prior to their response, clarifying that not all of those screenshots were necessarily literal rape apology, merely fucky and insensitive, but today I have learned that being called a rape apologist is a real injustice

What was your intention behind displaying that definition in front of some peoples' posts if not to paint those people as rape apologists? I didn't see your little edit you added after the fact but you still threw together that little collage trying to depict me as a rape apologist and you're a piece of shit for doing so. I don't even care about what you have to say at this point, i'm blocking you.

[Sarah K]

Never expected this thread to turn into hilarity. A+.

[playwithfire]

Airbornefeline blocked me so if anyone else is curious, it was to contextualize rape apology as not merely being a matter of people going "rape isn't that bad' but also applies in some situations where folks argue that it is INFREQUENT, MISREPORTED, or OVER-REPORTED.

hope this helps

[Dryalex12]

Bud, my ~actual serious opinion~ is that I believe her, and that I think Jeordie is a piece of shit and I hope he is ostracized by his friends and family and maybe, maybe, one day takes responsibility for what he did, keeps himself far away from anyone he's hurt, and tries to contribute some good to the world.

HOWEVER, the fact that people are using this instance as an opportunity to talk about how rape accusations ruin lives/there are two sides of every story/what about false rape accusations, is just shitty and insensitive at best, and rape apology at worst. (There's a spectrum of fuckery.) Have those conversations. Why have them HERE and NOW?

For some reason, I don't feel like dignifying that with a measured response. But, I do feel like addressing it in a way I think is fitting. Cool thx.

Well I agree about the first part.......but not the the 2nd part......to a degree.

None of us are trying to defend Twiggy, we aren't trying to say it's not a big deal.......but when you're accused of something as serious as this......THEY ARE going to respond back....probably...I don't know

I still side with her and remain my stance that Twiggy is a piece of shit.....but I still want to hear what he has to say about it....just to try and see how he is going to defend or prove himself innocent.....or he might actually just outright say he did.........or he might just not say anything at all.....I really don't know, but stop calling us Rape Apologists when it isn't true.

[Dryalex12]

Airbornefeline blocked me so if anyone else is curious, it was to contextualize rape apology as not merely being a matter of people going "rape isn't that bad' but also applies in some situations where folks argue that it is INFREQUENT, MISREPORTED, or OVER-REPORTED.

hope this helps

I also don't agree in that either, as in the context of being accused of that

[playwithfire]

I mean, if you want to argue semantics, the only person I have literally called a rape apologist is the dude who was like "but Polanski apologized'

HOWEVER, I think y'all acting like being called a rape apologist is some horrifying insult is silly. I'd argue that basically everyone in this thread, on either side, has very likely had a failing at one point when it comes to rape apology. Maybe we have that one friend who is kind of a creep/pathetic but nothing bad seems to have ever happened, so we don't give him too much shit for it (I have been this person). Maybe we quote statistics in the face of harrowing accounts. Maybe some of us didn't even super get why "rape" was coming up as something between spouses. Maybe we think "date rape" isn't as bad as violent rape, etc. If someone called me a rape apologist, I'd go "Hey, maybe at one point, probably" and then move on with my fucking life and not be so sensitive about it, but instead I'm just seeing a bunch of folks act like it's The Worst Insult in the face of a woman's account of horrifying abuse

[playwithfire]

I also don't agree in that either, as in the context of being accused of that

With my sarcasm hat off for a second, are you saying you disagree with those things being rape apology, or with my saying that some folks were doing that/doing things that were similar to that?

[sweeterthan]

Airbornefeline blocked me so if anyone else is curious, it was to contextualize rape apology as not merely being a matter of people going "rape isn't that bad' but also applies in some situations where folks argue that it is INFREQUENT, MISREPORTED, or OVER-REPORTED.

hope this helps

someone was bound to do it. it's all over the damn thread.

[Dryalex12]

I'm.....just gonna check out this thread, I already apologized and I don't wanna fuck that up either...i'm getting to stressed out over this....it's kinda rediculous

[Dryalex12]

With my sarcasm hat off for a second, are you saying you disagree with those things being rape apology, or with my saying that some folks were doing that/doing things that were similar to that?

The latter

[playwithfire]

The latter

Word. I'd argue that folks choosing this time to get into misreporting, etc, was preettttyyy close to rape apology. Particularly in the Manson thread pre-split.

[Dryalex12]

I honestly think it needs a better name than Rape Apology....is sorta misleading but like I said, I don't want to get pissed off again and get into another argument with my mom after what Allergo said to me last night. Sorry again for all this unintended mess I may have caused again

[playwithfire]

I think you're doing fine. I appreciate that you're trying.

But like, this is the same thing you see with terms like "rape culture" -- they're so divisive that they're near ineffective. People hear "rape culture" and instead of going "oh, a culture where this is more normalized, or a culture that perpetuates this in subtle ways" they go "A CULTURE OF RAPE!?" and then you can't have a conversation because people are too busy being butthurt. There is no way in hell I would use the term "rape apology" in an irl conversation unless the person was doing it blatantly (ala "she wanted it") because I'd know, even if I was using the word accurately, someone who wasn't familiar with the definition would potentially be too upset by it to listen and engage with me. Even if I did, I'd probably introduce it as a term to them first "do you know the term rape apology, it's this"

However, I didn't start using that word here, and everyone has access to google, and if someone called me a rape apologist I'd be like "there have been times, yes" -- so if the skeleton posting in pink comic sans can be mature sometimes and not freak the fuck out about being potentially called that, so can everyone else.

[Dryalex12]

I think you're doing fine. I appreciate that you're trying.

But like, this is the same thing you see with terms like "rape culture" -- they're so divisive that they're near ineffective. People hear "rape culture" and instead of going "oh, a culture where this is more normalized, or a culture that perpetuates this in subtle ways" they go "A CULTURE OF RAPE!?" and then you can't have a conversation because people are too busy being butthurt. There is no way in hell I would use the term "rape apology" in an irl conversation unless the person was doing it blatantly (ala "she wanted it") because I'd know, even if I was using the word accurately, someone who wasn't familiar with the definition would potentially be too upset by it to listen and engage with me. Even if I did, I'd probably introduce it as a term to them first "do you know the term rape apology, it's this"

However, I didn't start using that word here, and everyone has access to google, and if someone called me a rape apologist I'd be like "there have been times, yes" -- so if the skeleton posting in pink comic sans can be mature sometimes and not freak the fuck out about being potentially called that, so can everyone else.

Alright last message for real but I guess that makes sense. I just see the word Rape and my brain is in Auto "rape is bad stay away from anything rape" mode. I was willing to listen....but like I said, i said too much and its stressing me so, take it easy now

[playwithfire]

For sure. I hope you have a chill rest of your night.

[renton44]

Just want to say, I still think this whole thing sucks. Don't care who is telling the truth or not, the court of public opinion will that decide for us (me). I just don't want this to grow into "You are a rape supporter" simply because you attend a Marilyn Manson concert or buy a Manson record, Jessicka had said something close to that which really stung in one of her earlier FB posts.

I don't want Jeordie's actions to have such a negative effect on the Manson brand that it makes it uncomfortable to listen to a band that got me (and lots of people) through some rough times in our lives. Their music meant the world to me in my late teens/mid twenties and I am forever grateful for that. But this is just one of those horrible moments where you see behind the curtain at the wizard of Oz and it isn't all you have hoped it would be. Getting harsh reactions because you are a fan of this band through thick and thin is tough, this makes it even tougher.

I hope Manson does the right thing and basically lets Jeordie go. Guilty or Innocent, it doesn't matter anymore.

[Sutekh]

It's true that people are innocent until proven guilty, and that ultimately, nobody can know 100% what happened except for the people involved.

However it is pretty strange how this one issue seems to compel people to stress the importance of objective verifiability and the innate fallibility of perception. There's plenty of other topics with a similar gravity, where people openly make assumptions and it doesn't lead to lectures and arguments.

Anyway, I reserve judgement - but also don't find it hard to believe

[Louie_Cypher]

watching bill )'Riley's response on today made me want to throw up. of course it Fox News so...
-louie

[sweeterthan]

watching bill )'Riley's response on today made me want to throw up. of course it Fox News so...
-louie

O’Riely talked about Jessika’s essay?


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[Shadaloo]

I just don't want this to grow into "You are a rape supporter" simply because you attend a Marilyn Manson concert or buy a Manson record, Jessicka had said something close to that which really stung in one of her earlier FB posts.

This is pretty much where I stand as well. I have no reason at all to disbelieve Jessicka, but MM was a huge influence on me in my formative years and I can't come here and say that I'm going to stop listening to my old favorite albums because someone who I now understand to possibly be a goddamned monster helped make them. If anything, Daisy's passing is giving me more of an urge to revisit them.

At any rate, I'm glad to hear she stood up and I hope it does her a world of good, and gets others to come forward as well.

I'll say this much; I also want to hear what Twiggy has to say for himself. I'll hold off on picking up any Goon Moon stuff for the time being (I had just started listening recently).

[eversonpoe]

This is pretty much where I stand as well. I have no reason at all to disbelieve Jessicka, but MM was a huge influence on me in my formative years and I can't come here and say that I'm going to stop listening to my old favorite albums because someone who I now understand to possibly be a goddamned monster helped make them. If anything, Daisy's passing is giving me more of an urge to revisit them.

At any rate, I'm glad to hear she stood up and I hope it does her a world of good, and gets others to come forward as well.

I'll say this much; I also want to hear what Twiggy has to say for himself. I'll hold off on picking up any Goon Moon stuff for the time being (I had just started listening recently).

that's the thing - no one has said "you're not allowed to listen to marilyn manson" to anyone; no one has said "if you still listen to music twiggy was involved in, you're absolving him of his guilt" to anyone.

all we've said (to some people, not you specifically) is "why are you so quick to disbelieve this woman who has no reason to lie about this?" and instead of going "because we haven't heard from twiggy about it" (which is actually a fairly reasonable response), a bunch of people have been spouting off about "false rape reports" and "what happened to innocent until proven guilty?" without taking into account the institutionalized sexism/misogyny that runs rampant in our society.

it's the same reason that cops seem to get away with shooting unarmed black men; because the people in power don't care because they see black men as lesser than themselves. the people in power see women as lesser than themselves, they see women as objects to be owned and used. and because that is so pervasive in our society, it makes it so that many people who are sexually assaulted/abused (particularly women) are terrified to come forward with their stories, for fear of not being believed.

i feel like i keep saying the same thing, and those of you who are arguing on the other side of this issue just don't want to respond to it because somewhere inside, you know i'm correct.

[Dryalex12]

and instead of going "because we haven't heard from twiggy about it" (which is actually a fairly reasonable response)

I was actually going to say that from the start and it was what I was trying to get across this whole time. When people said it's all been one-sided, im pretty sure that what people, including myself, meant........again we just fucked it up really bad.

I don't think anyone of us meant to come off as Misogynistic and all that shit....we just suck at explaining. I read all of the people's responses and I thought to myself "what did I say that would get this kind of reaction"

It may take awhile, but I usually get an answer for that, as I proved yesterday

and it was what I was trying to say when "innocent until proven guilty" cuz Twiggy hasn't responded yet, but as I said, I failed horribly trying to explain it.

[eversonpoe]

I was actually going to say that from the start and it was what I was trying to get across this whole time. When people said it's all been one-sided, im pretty sure that what people, including myself, meant........again we just fucked it up really bad.

I don't think anyone of us meant to come off as Misogynistic and all that shit....we just suck at explaining. I read all of the people's responses and I thought to myself "what did I say that would get this kind of reaction"

It may take awhile, but I usually get an answer for that, as I proved yesterday

and it was what I was trying to say when "innocent until proven guilty" cuz Twiggy hasn't responded yet, but as I said, I failed horribly trying to explain it.

you're the only person in this thread who has actually shown willingness to listen and learn. in my eyes, you're exempt (at this point) from the generalizations i was making.

[sweeterthan]

@Dryalex12 you did come pretty far in a matter of hours. It was cool to see.


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