The Feminist Thread

[playwithfire]

So, Times Square has had topless performers for a bit and people are being complete idiots over it. Here's the latest. (NSFW)

WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS 100% LEGAL

"Three women who pose painted and topless for tips in Times Square say that ten undercover police officers collected and removed their clothing, purses, cellphones and wallets from the pedestrian plaza at 42nd Street last Wednesday night, while they were using the bathroom at a nearby parking garage. The women had to walk nine blocks in their paint and robes to the Midtown South precinct in order to retrieve their possessions. There, before returning any items, detectives questioned them each separately in an interrogation room. None of the women had been formally arrested."

I hate everything.

[Sarah K]

de Blasio better cool it with this shit. I love him so much, but this whole thing is incredibly stupid. I cannot believe that he's doing this, honestly.

[playwithfire]

Yeah, it's incredibly disappointing. I wonder if it's pressure from Cuomo or what. It seems so unlike him.

[tony.parente]

Facebook decided to troll me today. Reminded me of when @Sarah K bought me a book on feminism for the ets secret Santa lol

[Sarah K]

Facebook decided to troll me today. Reminded me of when @Sarah K bought me a book on feminism for the ets secret Santa lol

Lolol... Btw, I found the half of your present that I never sent while I was moving. Send me your address(the correct one this time), bruh.

[WorzelG]

Eek - Chrissie Hynde, just please stop talking!
http://www.vulture.com/2015/08/chris...ans-fault.html
a lot of people think this though, no fuck it, you could be out in a dark alley with a sign saying 'fuck me now' hanging over you, you still don't deserve to be raped, or were asking for it. This drives me mad, the idea that men can't be trusted to keep their dick in their trousers, so don't do anything that might entice them - dress modestly, fuck that!

[Volband]

edit: nope.jpg

[icklekitty]

Eek - Chrissie Hynde, just please stop talking!
http://www.vulture.com/2015/08/chris...ans-fault.html
a lot of people think this though, no fuck it, you could be out in a dark alley with a sign saying 'fuck me now' hanging over you, you still don't deserve to be raped, or were asking for it. This drives me mad, the idea that men can't be trusted to keep their dick in their trousers, so don't do anything that might entice them - dress modestly, fuck that!

I've heard comments that say this is her way of doing what all victims do - blaming herself. That's the only universe where I can see this as anywhere near acceptable (still, pretty fucking far from acceptable).

[playwithfire]

Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism

[allegro]

Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism

Wow, I wish I could "Like" that 100 times.

[eversonpoe]

Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism

"If you’re a feminist who spends any amount of time on the Internet, you know exactly what I’m talking about: You post that article about the wage gap on Facebook, and all of a sudden, all of these cis, white, straight dudes come out of the woodwork to remind you that the statistics are faulty, that women take more time off of work, that women just don’t like STEM fields – all under the guise of “playing devil’s advocate” – as if you’ve never heard these arguments before."

gee, do we know anyone like that?

[Sallos]

I know plenty who haven't fall into the wage gap myth, hopefully we will be meeting much more.

[eversonpoe]

Teen Girl Band Gives Epic Response To Judge Who Told Them To “Use The Sultry”

[Baphomette]

Texas health workers turn in undocumented woman during gynecology appointment

Legal vaginas only.

[playwithfire]

Jesus christ, no.

[tony.parente]

This is awesome.

[Volband]

Oh, look.

4 Things Men Are Really Doing When They ‘Play Devil’s Advocate’ Against Feminism

This article is fighting fire with fire. I labeled this as a USA thing, but recent events in Europe showed that we are just as perfectly capable of creating two radical and twisted viewpoints, so people can fight each other mindlessly.

At first I thought I have a problem with feminism, but turns out there are a million and one type of feminism, so I can't just label a whole movement for it's radical doings - like this article, which is just as narrow-minded as the men it's trying to bash. Then I thought it must be "MURICA", cuz you know, freedom and such must make people so bored out of their mind they can't do anything with their free time. But since shit hit the fan in Europe, it's pretty obvious that the main problem lies within us, humans (and in our society).

I complained that it's literally impossible to argue - or even to talk sometimes - with some people here, unless I am saying word by word what they'd like to hear (anyone seen the new SP episode, especially the bathroom scene?), but could I have a decent discussion with my fellow countrymen about the migrant-crysis? No, the discussion's would turn out exactly the way some of them turned out in this (or the previous) thread.

[Khrz]

The thing is, the internet isn't a place for debate. It's an awful tool when it comes to discussing and arguing contradicting opinions.
Either you make it short and to the point and everyone more or less is left to interpret where you're coming from, either you go into TL : DR territory and nobody will bother to read a page worth of opinion piece.

About the fighting fire with fire : I fundamentally agree with you. I see it in posts about race issues, socio-economic ones, gender identity and equality...
And I do think that fundamentally we shouldn't try to outdo the "opponent" in that kind of debate.

But, and perhaps you're in the same position as me in this case, this is coming from a white hetero man in a reasonably comfortable social standing.
That means we never had to care*, and we were never confronted to a skewed view of who we are. We never had to worry about everyone's perception of who we were. We're fundamentally accepted by our peers, our culture, our nation, our media. We never had anything to prove or to fight. There are no weird rumors about us, no insulting clichés.
We never had to deal with society's passive hostility.

So as much as I hate seeing Men, or Whites, or CIS people being shoved in a bag, as much as I hate the neo-clichés being shouted by the most extreme SJWs, as much as I roll my eyes every time I see cultural bleedthrough being shot down as cultural appropriation, I just believe this is the pendulum swinging the other way. There's no way to reach an equilibrium without it, too many people will just ignore all reasonable pleas.

After a while, maybe, hopefully, everyone will be able to discuss it calmly and listen to each other. Now isn't the time though, and the people who feel they have been ignored and dismissed for far too long are now fighting back. And if some of them are not being reasonable or level-headed about it, maybe it's because nobody cared when they tried to be cool about it before.

So, for now, if you really want to discuss and debate the merits and faults of feminism for instance, your best bet is to find actual countrymen and actually talk about it. It's already hard enough to have a discussion about minor subjects without being misinterpreted, you can't expect to have everyone listen to your controversial opinion on a difficult topic...


* : And I obviously mean "us" as a demographic, not as individuals.

[Volband]

Yeah, the final nail in my coffin was the pain I felt while reading through the saying fuckboy is totally fine, saying bitch is not "arguments" here. It was some serious double-standard, which is rather ironic. But you might be right, maybe it is the sensation of change what warrants such statements. It's not even a might be, it is the time when things are happening, so people stampede over anyone who seems to threaten these ideas.

In a way it is fascinating, that depending on the time and place, someone can be a hero or a villain for the same exact sentences. But what ultimately scares me, that debates about feminism, homosexuals, transgenders, immigrants, ethnicities are not about humans, but ideas. Even if parts of the construct which makes up the whole idea are flawed, you have to think thrice whether to dare and question it or not, because you can be sure, that you will face the accusations of you being against the whole idea.

I just don't understand why people make a fucking contest out of everything nowadays. These should be serious issues which are best to approach from a million viewpoints with open minds, so we - together - could get closer to - if not the most, but still - the optimal solution. Instead, it's a race, where the winner is whomever can annihilate the other one. However, after your post, I kinda understand now why I don't understand it.

And it's mainly not about this thread, it is more than okay to have a little "guild" here, to use an MMO term, but the same thing is going on in real life, and the "we are just a couple people wanting to discuss things our way" explanation just doesn't cut it, when it involves hundreds of millions people.

[Khrz]

The way I see it, it's like a bar brawl.

You and I are in the bully's gang. That just happened, we don't agree with the guy, we were just there and there's no getting back.
After being an asshole to every underdog who came into "his" bar for years, the guy's getting kicked in the nads every now and then.

And maybe every kick isn't warranted. Maybe some punches are a bit too vicious sometimes. But hell, the guy's been a sadistic dickhead way too long.
And because we're part of his crew, it's not our place to tell anyone to chill out. As soon as we'll intervene, we'll be part of the fight, and on the wrong side of it as far as I'm concerned. As I said, we're wearing the guy's colors.

So yeah, let that guy get kicked down. More often than not he had it coming.
As far as I'm concerned, that racist, sexist, homophobic son of a bitch needs to get some sense slammed into his head. Talking him into it didn't work out, wearing cute badges didn't either.

When the balance has been tipped for too long, when the people snap, they'll throw all the weight they have to change the balance, to not get short-changed. Those aren't times for clever debates and dispassionate analysis. It would be great if it worked that way, but it never has.
It's a great time to reflect on the way we think, on the way things are, to wonder how things should be. When the dust settles we'll be there, and maybe we'll have something worthy to share then. But I don't think that now is our time to speak up, honestly.

[allegro]

For the record, I don't think ANYBODY in here said "saying 'fuckboy' is fine but saying 'bitch' is not."

I personally said I don't feel comfortable calling men names if I don't like terms like "bitch" or "cunt" being used toward women (because of the double standard and because I prefer NO name-calling or derogatory terms). Others here said they liked "fuckboy" and don't mind (some even like) being called a "bitch." But I did not see ONE person here saying it was okay to call men names but not okay for men to call female names. Not one.

And I don't think the females on this board have ever thought of anything as a contest; what we seek, among each other, and from others I suppose, is support. Playing devil's advocate is not helpful. Telling us that the patriarchy doesn't exist in the U.S. when you (not you personally but you know who) do not live here as a female is useless argumentative rhetoric.

And I think at least some of this stems from some unnecessary guilt, like "these feminists are lodging complaints, they must be complaining about MEN and hey wait THAT MUST INCLUDE ME" which is ridiculous. Just because you are male does not mean you are automatically "the problem" nor does it mean we expect you to be "the solution."

But the least you can do (you meaning all "hurt" males out there) is quit telling us we are making a big deal out of nothing, that everything is fine, that nothing is wrong, etc. That is what they told us when they wouldn't let us vote, wouldn't let us own property, wouldn't let us have custody of our own children, etc. When we express ourselves, the ones turning it into an "argument" is YOU GUYS by basically telling us we are full of shit. And telling any oppressed 2nd class society that they are full of shit, and framing it as some kind of "intellectual debate" is never going to turn out well. To the people who already feel like they are oppressed, it just feels like more of the same thing, you know? You'll have to take our word on this one.

Put it this way: let's frame this same discussion around African Americans who say that the American history of slavery and the oppression of blacks, the ghettoization of blacks, the police mistreatment of blacks, the lesser schooling of blacks, the disproportionate poverty among American blacks, are on the top of their complaint list.

And those of us with American White Guilt come on here and say, "oh get over it, slavery was 200 yrs ago, and if you live in a ghetto and are poor, just get a good job and go to college and move, this just isn't true, white America treats you well, things are different now."

And they say, "hey, this is our thread about African American rights," we say "hey, what is this, an echo chamber? You don't want to hear other opinions?"

And in our position as whites is just further oppressing them by taking away their voice.

In the 60s and 70s, there was a huge protest movement, with civil unrest. And the people who pushed against that? We called them "Squares."

People have to stop taking every cause so personally and judging it with their ego, instead of compassion or empathy. When feminists talk about oppression, they aren't pointing at every single male on the planet. When blacks talk about oppression, they aren't pointing at every white person on the planet. Instead of questioning, "is that true?" or "are they blaming me?" or trying to play "devil's advocate," ask "how can I help?" or "how can we change things for the better?" And simply listen.

[Khrz]

And I think at least some of this stems from some unnecessary guilt, like "these feminists are lodging complaints, they must be complaining about MEN and hey wait THAT MUST INCLUDE ME" which is ridiculous. Just because you are male does not mean you are automatically "the problem" nor does it mean we expect you to be "the solution."

I think perhaps Volband's issue is with broad statements about men in general, not about actual complaints. Which I can understand, I see posts here and there deriding White culture (which is really american whites' culture, but well), pointing out Men's behaviors, etc... When such a broad statement is made it's hard not to have a reaction akin to "well, I'm a man/white/cishet and I don't do that".

It's just a gut reaction, and as you said such statements shouldn't be taken personally.

The problem is also that in articles, opinion pieces and message posts, it's way simpler to talk about men in general rather than describe and pinpoint exactly what kind of men we're talking about every time. When talking about catcalling it's way easier to just talk about men's attitude rather than say "The Men Who Catcall You In The Streets And Are Rude About It" every time.

Guys just have to learn to actually read what it is about and reflect upon it rather than jump on their chair every time they see Men being mentioned in an article.

[eversonpoe]

I think perhaps Volband's issue is with broad statements about men in general, not about actual complaints. Which I can understand, I see posts here and there deriding White culture (which is really american whites' culture, but well), pointing out Men's behaviors, etc... When such a broad statement is made it's hard not to have a reaction akin to "well, I'm a man/white/cishet and I don't do that".

It's just a gut reaction, and as you said such statements shouldn't be taken personally.

The problem is also that in articles, opinion pieces and message posts, it's way simpler to talk about men in general rather than describe and pinpoint exactly what kind of men we're talking about every time. When talking about catcalling it's way easier to just talk about men's attitude rather than say "The Men Who Catcall You In The Streets And Are Rude About It" every time.

Guys just have to learn to actually read what it is about and reflect upon it rather than jump on their chair every time they see Men being mentioned in an article.

it's similar (but not the same) to the reaction people have to "black lives matter" when they say "ALL lives matter!"
no one is saying "black lives matter MORE than other lives," they're saying "black lives matter JUST AS MUCH as other lives" because they're not being treated that way, but that's too long to fit on a hashtag.

[tony.parente]

it's similar (but not the same) to the reaction people have to "black lives matter" when they say "ALL lives matter!"
no one is saying "black lives matter MORE than other lives," they're saying "black lives matter JUST AS MUCH as other lives" because they're not being treated that way, but that's too long to fit on a hashtag.

#BLMJAMAOL

Sorry

[Volband]

That being said, I don't advocate name-calling as a positive mature feminist motive ("fuckboy"). I can't bristle at being called a "bitch" or a "cunt" by males, and then turn around and do the same stupid shit. It backfires. Watch out.

I think it is 100% reasonable to call someone who hits on you when you have told them you aren't interested and/or harasses you a fuckboy. They are being a fuckboy.

I think it was been defined here way beyond that, using a derogatory term that does not involve fucking any boys. And I am sure that many males can compose an essay defending their use of "cunt." Just sayin'. Maybe calling these guys "jerks" (as has been typical in history) "predators," "misogynists," etc., but beyond that is kinda high school. It sounds like something somebody made up while they were drunk.

I hear you, but nope, I love the word. Fuck (making shit all sexual) boy (immature). It's this perfect catchall word for the kind of behavior you see on straightwhiteboystexting.tumblr.com (which I keep bringing up because it's perfect) more so than any other word.

Calling a woman bitch/cunt (tbh I love the word cunt) is punching down. Calling a fuckboy a fuckboy? Not punching down.

I mean.........

Anyway, the black analogy is good, and I can even respond to that. We have our own minorities too, and surprise-surprise, most of them have big families and are unemployed. It is an issue, which probably will never ever be solved, but the point is, they are pretty hated here, so conflicts where they get the short end of the stick just because of their nationality are not rare. Why is it then that so many people actually - silently or not - happy when such incidents happen? Because the other side of the coin are never up for a debate, they are taboo topics. They refuse to fit in and they commit crimes in much higher % than us "whites". I'm pretty sure they do not defend those American cops, because they'd just love to live in a world where you have to be afraid from your own police, but because there is a built up hate in them, and it is how they channel it through. Fire with fire.

If someone is angry at the feminist movement, then it's not because they can't stomach the idea that a female worker who does the same exact job as they are, will get the same exact salary too. It's because suddenly you can't even dislike/disagree with/etc. a person who happens to be female, because you are surely doing it because you are sexist. You keep bringing up things (like women's right to vote) which I don't think anyone argues with. Yes, there was a time when... but you can't keep reaching back to it and making it your argument, that just because a hundred years ago some people were so stupid they couldn't comprehend why women should be allowed to vote, than probably anyone who has a problem with some of these forced politically correct views are just as stupid as those people were. It's not how it works, though technically you could be right.

And don't tell me it's not a race. Saying you don't like gay parades makes you homophobic. Talking about black crime and birth rate among the poor makes you racist. Even bringing up the argument about salary differences between the sexes, and talking about which field more female or male are employed makes you a sexist. Saying you don't want 100,000 immigrants in your country makes you literally Hitler. Saying we should do what we can to help the immigrants makes you a traitor. You don't, or just very very rarely see civilized, level-headed discussions among people. Hell, fuck level-headedness, a heated argument can be just as great, but instead, everyone is aiming for to invalidate the other person with any means necessary. Sometimes it feels like we (not ETS, but everyone) is on the TV, prime time, with millions watching, so saying "wow man, aren't you a sexist barbarain, huh?!" nets more applaud from the viewers, than actually talking about stuff.

But to be fair, feminism seems to me the least dangerous - if at all - among these. I don't see it ever becoming too much of a problem, like reaching the opposite end of the "women should not be allowed to vote" mentality.

[allegro]

Maybe your English is bad but you are not understanding my above quotes. I was DISAGREEING with their use of the term "fuckboy" as I thought it was stupid. If they wanted to call these particular sexist guys "jerks" for their behavior (which is a gender-free English term), whatever. Since that time, it was determined that "fuckboy" was actually an old African American Vernacular English (AAVE) term that was appropriated (stolen) by whites.

@playwithfire said she loved the word cunt and she said that fuckboy was not a humiliating term (whereas bitch is).

NONE of those quotes said it was okay to call men names but not okay for them to call us names. None.

And it has not yet been 100 years since we were not allowed to vote. And, yes, we can still go back to that because it was oppression and it is part of our modern history and we have not totally broken free from that system and if we lose our history we are doomed to repeat it. It has not yet been 30 years since we could not get a small business loan. Women still mostly take their husband's surnames when they marry. But the most disturbing thing we females in the US face right now is domestic violence. The statistics are staggering. The backlash against our freedom has evidently been rape, assault, and death. Job security is one thing; being killed by our husbands is another.

I don't know what TV you are watching but I see the opposite of "sexist barbarian" comments and the like, here in this country. I see women ashamed of their bodies, I see a country obsessed by vain selfies, I see fashion mostly driven by an unrealistic photoshopped fashion and media industry, and I mostly see an apathetic vapid society obsessed with Kim Kardashian.

You need to stop reading such angry sites, or at least reading everything as angry. I don't think any of us, here, are angry. Frustrated sometimes, yeah. Tired, sometimes, yeah. Angry? Nah. That gets us nowhere.

We feminists / women's rights advocates are living, feeling human beings without a political agenda, and we are mostly trying to create a better, safer world for ourselves and our children. Some younger women are passionate about this, yes. But they should not apologize for that passion. That same passion of suffragettes earned us the right to vote.

But I just don't think any feminists see this an as us vs. them issue; we can't, because it's not a recipe for success. If the males are in power, the only way to obtain success is to gain the men as allies in our success in those institutions of power. And that's the way we have been working for the better part of 100 years. Go read articles or even watch the videos posted in this thread of feminist icon Gloria Steinem. She is rarely, if ever, angry. Her message is never anger, or "us vs. them." She is calm, intelligent, highly educated, informed, and a role model to millions of feminists world-wide. And she is 80 years young.

The Politically Correct movement was not born of oppression, it was born of compassion and empathy. Before the PC movement, nobody batted an eyelash in openly calling people derogatory names, openly bullying people, etc. The PC movement may not have done much to STOP any of the evil in this world, but it did make people perhaps more aware that their words do not occur in a vacuum.

This country is not as love/hate as you describe, above; not liking gay pride parades (e.g. the elderly or people who live in those neighborhoods who hate the traffic and drunkenness) does not prompt "everybody" to declare those as "homophobic." Plenty of articles in major U.S. newspapers cite the crime rates in black neighborhoods and we KNOW why it occurs and have scientific data, beyond hate, to prove why, and nobody points at those newspapers as "racist" but, instead, points at the entire SYSTEM as racist (see "ghettoization"). High birth rates happen among Catholics, too, so no correlation, there.

Bottom line, as has been explained ad infinitum: If you disagree that there is a wage disparity between men and women, saying that in a FEMINIST THREAD is not Politically Incorrect - IT'S TROLLING. Because females who actually EXPERIENCE the wage disparity KNOW it is true and why. And telling us we are full of shit in our own thread is trolling. Really, it is. It's not "PC" shit.

You are allowed to discuss this opposing opinion anywhere else but not with those with personal experience on the topic in their thread. That's been the rules of Usenet and BBSs and forums since the beginning. Like catcalling: We think it is humiliating, scary, and a form of assault in this thread. If you enjoy it, think it's innocuous, or wish to defend those who do it, that's not Politically Incorrect - it's trolling. We females say it is scary and humiliating and for you to say it is not is not Politically Incorrect - it's trolling. And for you to feel like we are somehow excluding you, or accusing you, or creating an echo chamber, is simply your defensive self talking. You're not being a compassionate human being, here. Think about it. Think with your heart, I mean; not with your gut defensive reaction, or that "macho" kind of social conditioning that might be first nature to you in your culture, albeit perhaps subconsciously. Know what I mean? Try to put yourself in our shoes, a female, having experienced it yourself, and having felt scared or humiliated. Take yourself out of your male shoes for a little while and be empathetic. If you want to contribute to this thread, anyway.

I know when I hear or read stories about how hard it is for black people in this country, being pulled over by cops all the time for absolutely no reason, my empathy automatically switches on; a guy my husband works with has been an air traffic controller for many years, a high-paid professional, and he says he gets pulled over by the cops all the time, for no reason. He's not a thug, he's actually a Federal employee with the highest level of Federal security clearance, higher than ANY cop who pulls him over, he has NORAD-level security clearance, he can work AIR FORCE ONE, for Christ sake, but if he goes to a gas station and buys a lottery ticket, bam, he gets pulled over and they run his license. Because of course they want to check if he just robbed the gas station. And even though I'm not black, I'm a white female, this breaks my heart, it just makes me disgusted that we live in a country where this happens, and I can't completely walk in this guy's shoes, I can't possibly totally know what this guy's life is life, but I wish there was SOME way I could DO something to stop these kinds of things from happening to black American citizens in this country. Which is drift in this thread but, you get the idea. It's about compassion, not about arguing every little point, like "well, what was he wearing? what kind of car was he driving?" blah blah blah.

[playwithfire]

For the record, I haven't used the word fuckboy since learning it was AAVE through this board. I didn't know. I do now. Not my word.

But I do want a new word for it.

The key thing here is like... punching up vs. punching down. Insulting a harasser isn't the same.

I'm wary of drawing a line of connection here, but to maybe make some sense of things, a white person minding being called "cracker" would be FUCKING STUPID.

Ya'll objecting to a guy who throws mindless sexual attention at women minding earning an insulting name is fucking stupid.

[allegro]

But what ultimately scares me, that debates about feminism, homosexuals, transgenders, immigrants, ethnicities are not about humans, but ideas. Even if parts of the construct which makes up the whole idea are flawed, you have to think thrice whether to dare and question it or not, because you can be sure, that you will face the accusations of you being against the whole idea.

But, see, this is flawed; it IS, ultimately, about humans. And about how these humans are treated. And whether or not these humans have anything to do with you, at all. Ultimately, women's rights, gay rights, transgender rights and African American rights probably won't affect you at all, but can positively change the lives of millions of human beings. But there is enough hate out there, or religious opposition, etc. that seeks to stop human beings from living their lives, and uses excuses like the Bible or whatever. Ultimately, if it means that these groups continue to suffer discrimination, then any exchange of "ideas" is really just an excuse for human oppression and retention of the status quo. What kind of possible "idea" could one present that could intelligently be "against" homosexuality, transgender, women, or African Americans? When all of those (a) don't affect you at all, (b) don't choose to be that way, (c) deserve to be treated fairly. Of course, if you go to various Apostolic churches in this country, I promise they will greet those ideas with open loving arms (homosexuality is a sin, transgender people are going to Hell, women should obey their husbands, and black people should have remained slaves).

Exhibit A: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/19/us/kim...cky/index.html

[Volband]

For the record, I haven't used the word fuckboy since learning it was AAVE through this board. I didn't know. I do now. Not my word.

But I do want a new word for it.

The key thing here is like... punching up vs. punching down. Insulting a harasser isn't the same.

I'm wary of drawing a line of connection here, but to maybe make some sense of things, a white person minding being called "cracker" would be FUCKING STUPID.

Ya'll objecting to a guy who throws mindless sexual attention at women minding earning an insulting name is fucking stupid.

As long as you have no problem if someone calls a woman who acts like a bitch*, bitch, then I see no problem.

*Just please don't make this into a "what exactly does being a bitch mean?" debate.

But, see, this is flawed; it IS, ultimately, about humans. And about how these humans are treated. And whether or not these humans have anything to do with you, at all. Ultimately, women's rights, gay rights, transgender rights and African American rights probably won't affect you at all, but can positively change the lives of millions of human beings. But there is enough hate out there, or religious opposition, etc. that seeks to stop human beings from living their lives, and uses excuses like the Bible or whatever. Ultimately, if it means that these groups continue to suffer discrimination, then any exchange of "ideas" is really just an excuse for human oppression and retention of the status quo. What kind of possible "idea" could one present that could intelligently be "against" homosexuality, transgender, women, or African Americans? When all of those (a) don't affect you at all, (b) don't choose to be that way, (c) deserve to be treated fairly. Of course, if you go to various Apostolic churches in this country, I promise they will greet those ideas with open loving arms (homosexuality is a sin, transgender people are going to Hell, women should obey their husbands, and black people should have remained slaves).

Exhibit A: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/19/us/kim...cky/index.html

Having a problem with someone being black or gay is obviously rather stupid. The dude was born black, and the dudette likes other dudettes, so what?! People following the biggest hoax in human history might not like them, but who caers, really. Transgenders are a lil' bit different, it really needs the scientific backup, but even after that, it's still rather confusing. But accepting it should be just as easy anyway.

What's more annoying is that you can be lynched for saying stuff like "I don't like watching two men kiss." Or to make it into a feminist example, I've read about women being criticized for actually wanting to do the housework, wanting to have a baby and stay home with it, etc. These are the things no one should be mocked for, or accused of being in the way of some glorious revolution.

But I interpreted your post as that you believe it is still worth it for the greater good. To which I'm not saying anything, because maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Haven't really thought of it that way.

I know when I hear or read stories about how hard it is for black people in this country, being pulled over by cops all the time for absolutely no reason, my empathy automatically switches on; a guy my husband works with has been an air traffic controller for many years, a high-paid professional, and he says he gets pulled over by the cops all the time, for no reason. He's not a thug, he's actually a Federal employee with the highest level of Federal security clearance, higher than ANY cop who pulls him over, he has NORAD-level security clearance, he can work AIR FORCE ONE, for Christ sake, but if he goes to a gas station and buys a lottery ticket, bam, he gets pulled over and they run his license. Because of course they want to check if he just robbed the gas station. And even though I'm not black, I'm a white female, this breaks my heart, it just makes me disgusted that we live in a country where this happens, and I can't completely walk in this guy's shoes, I can't possibly totally know what this guy's life is life, but I wish there was SOME way I could DO something to stop these kinds of things from happening to black American citizens in this country. Which is drift in this thread but, you get the idea. It's about compassion, not about arguing every little point, like "well, what was he wearing? what kind of car was he driving?" blah blah blah.

Do you know what I feel when I'm heading somewhere at night and I see minorities approach? I am getting ready, in case a conflict happens. DO you know what I did on the train when a minority sat down to by booth? I ended my nap, because my backpack and laptop were next to me. This example is a bit different, because not only the class of that guy was obvious (trust me, he had no security clearance anywhere, haha), he was the same guy who asked me for some money during another trip. Still, it sounds pretty bad, writing this down. Maybe he was actually a great guy, who knows, right? But I was growing up among them, I saw how they started to corrupt our schools, how they could bully around kids, but anytime someone dared to beat them up - rightfully so -, he was treated like shit. These guys (and girls) refused to learn, ganged up on the weak, stole, all this hwile enjoying complete immunity for their minority status.

I am absolutely sure there are minority people in my country too, who are hard-working, well-respected people, yet they are treated differently, even if by just people keeping on eye on them. You presented a romanticized story, which is exactly the one which needs the devil's advocate approach. Putting an angel in front and saying "Look at him/her?! How could you do this?!" is very compelling, but it doesn't even touch on the real problems. There is a reason sad things like that are happening, and maybe that reason is just as sad, and is still unresolved.

[playwithfire]

I have racist reactions to people to this day. Most people have racist reactions. But that's not a thing that's okay or shouldn't be picked apart and grown past.

As long as you have no problem if someone calls a woman who acts like a bitch*, bitch, then I see no problem.

*Just please don't make this into a "what exactly does being a bitch mean?" debate.

But no, dude, that MATTERS. Context MATTERS. I would much rather you call her an asshole, a bully, human garbage, a piece of shit. Because bitch has been used SO MANY times when a woman was opinionated, or stood up for herself, or ignored a man. It is a word that has been used as a slur.

I think to many people the word bitch exists as a neutral word for a woman who is acting shittily, but it's really hard for me to separate the times a woman is deservedly called a bitch from all the countless times it's been a word used to put her into her place.

>>>>>THAT SAID<<<<<, if a woman is a massive jerk to you and you call her a bitch, YEAH, whatever, sure. Go for it.