The Feminist Thread

[Lew]

Yeah but the undercurrent of masculine aggression in vocalizing these desires is the problem. Being attracted is *never* the problem, and yet it gets the biological imperative defence every. Single. Time.

Be a polite, civil person. For fuck's sake.

so very this. thanks, botley.

i love drooling over humans. always all ways. men and women. i get crushes every ten seconds. the issue is how you deal with those moments, as botley said.

my father is HUGE for objectification...he chronically refers to women as "it" or "that"...and i am chronically reminding him "she. SHE. HER.". it is odd to have to remind a 70 year old that he can enjoy viewing women, he can even enjoy complimenting that women from a distance, but that he needs to REALLY examine WHY he has to relabel the woman/women as "it" or "that' (like: look at the ass on that.). he is getting annoyed with me, but i ain't stopping until he gets it. (though i am really hoping i won't be using the ouija board to keep fighting with him about this one day ;p lololol 'you will not re-manifest with this viewpoint, father that was")

[cashpiles (closed)]

Here's another topic I've noticed in plenty of feminist and anti-feminist videos:

Some feminists think it's a violation if a man says hello to them on the street. I don't understand this.

I'm also watching videos by Anna Sarkeesian who critiques video game sexism. In her latest videos she talks about how the women in videogames tend to be dressed in sexy ways that emphasize their bodies and that this is wrong as it objectifies them.

HOWEVER, what about women in real life who dress super sexy? Should they change how they dress as well? It's interesting that there's a double standard for video game female dressing and real life female dressing.

[Sarah K]

It isn't just saying "Hi". It is aggressively approaching women and not listening when they say they are not interested. A "Hi" is almost never a greeting. It is just a way to initiate a conversation that the woman generally doesn't want. She just wants to walk in peace, wherever she is going.

[Sarah K]

And no. Women should dress however in the hell they want to dress.

[cashpiles (closed)]

And no. Women should dress however in the hell they want to dress.

What about in video games? Should women be dressed sexily in videogames?

A hi is almost never a greeting? I can see how men would use a hi to start a conversation, but almost never for just a greeting? Are you sure? What about the men who just say hi to say hi?

When is it appropriate to start a conversation with a woman (obviously the street is not the place)? And why is it usually the man that has to start the conversation, even IF the woman likes the man? That's not fair.

I'll tell you what though. If a woman says hi to me, I'm going to ignore her. No I'm not. I will say hi back.

[Sarah K]

I haven't played video games since Super Nintendo. So I'm not really knowledgeable about that issue. Of they're nearly naked just to be naked, then no, probably not. Are the men characters dressed sexy?

Yes. I'm sure that a hi is almost never a hi. Source: I've lived as a woman. In my experience, the only people who sincerely say hi and honestly just mean that are neighbors. I've never had a stranger say hi and have it end there.

In social settings is more reasonable. They are there to socialize. But while they are minding their business, just trying to get from point a to point b? Nah. Annoying and unnecessary. I think the man having to initiate a conversation happened a few decades ago, but isn't really a thing anymore.

[cashpiles (closed)]

The male characters are sometimes shirtless. The women usually have on very tight or revealing clothing and move about with large amounts of hip sway.

Here's my biggest question: how can a man dress sexy? Is it possible? Because I want to dress super attractive. For some reason women tend to dress in ways men find very attractive, but I think the opposite is not true..... or is it?

[botley]

Here's my biggest question: how can a man dress sexy? Is it possible? Because I want to dress super attractive. For some reason women tend to dress in ways men find very attractive, but I think the opposite is not true..... or is it?

Half the time (at least) men dress like it's never occurred to them that choosing clothing carefully requires effort or investment, because there's no penalty to them for dressing like careless slobs. Start by not doing that. This is not the thread for specific fashion advice, try some menswear blogs instead.

[ldopa]

Here's my biggest question: how can a man dress sexy? Is it possible? Because I want to dress super attractive. For some reason women tend to dress in ways men find very attractive, but I think the opposite is not true..... or is it?

in terms of clothing and fashion, "sexy" is a misnomer. there is no universal "super attractive" outfit. it's all objective. people wear things that showcase their best attributes and hide their "worst" ones.
are you a leg man? you will like women in short skirts and high heels, because those are the items that accentuate such. same goes with low cut tops...etc.
it's not rocket surgery.
or there's days where you don't feel like being a peacock and you dress functionally.

[theimage13]

Men are highly visual in terms of sexual attraction. Men cannot help but feel attraction when they see a woman wearing clothing that flatters and reveals her figure.

There is no on-off switch. You could say that this is a curse for both men and women. It's a curse because men can't turn it off and a lot of women FUCKING HATE it when a man sees them in that way.

I can't speak for a lot of women; I can only relay what my better half has told me. Which is that she likes feeling sexy - and to her, that means she dresses a certain way. What it doesn't mean is that she likes it when a man sees her sexy self walking down the street and thinks "I'd love to fuck the shit out of her".

In other words: being attracted to someone and finding them hot is entirely different than objectifying someone and seeing them as nothing more than a hot body that you want to stick your dick in.

I know that women are also attracted to guys. Jesus, look at Buzzfeed someday. They literally have a "hot guys newsletter" and post piece after piece about how some dude's abs are making them "thirsty". And I find that kind of stuff incredibly insulting. Not because they're women who are attracted to guys, but because they're literally just presenting the guys as objects to gawk at. Ironically, those pieces are generally displayed right above or a below a piece shaming men for doing the exact same thing to women. Hooray for double standards!

I'll raise my hand and say that I find several people who aren't my better half to be attractive. I'd be skeptical of anyone who claims otherwise. But there's a big difference between thinking to myself "wow, she's pretty" and literally saying to a bunch of guys "I'd bend her over my nightstand".

Men: keep it in your pants, not just literally, but figuratively. And maybe try to not even think of women as things to fuck in the first place and treat them like actual human beings.

[playwithfire]

I'm pretty fine with objectification. It's a part of human sexuality. It's when objectification turns into not treating people as like... complete persons that it gets problematic.

[Ryan]

Is being a maleist and maleism an actual thing?

[botley]

No absolutely fucking not

[Sallos]

Here's another topic I've noticed in plenty of feminist and anti-feminist videos:

Some feminists think it's a violation if a man says hello to them on the street. I don't understand this.

I'm also watching videos by Anna Sarkeesian who critiques video game sexism. In her latest videos she talks about how the women in videogames tend to be dressed in sexy ways that emphasize their bodies and that this is wrong as it objectifies them.

HOWEVER, what about women in real life who dress super sexy? Should they change how they dress as well? It's interesting that there's a double standard for video game female dressing and real life female dressing.

Miss Sarkeesian is one hell of a con artist, nothing else.

Funny video

[theimage13]

In her latest videos she talks about how the women in videogames tend to be dressed in sexy ways that emphasize their bodies and that this is wrong as it objectifies them.

HOWEVER, what about women in real life who dress super sexy? Should they change how they dress as well? It's interesting that there's a double standard for video game female dressing and real life female dressing.

How are these two things related?

Fig. A: Female characters in video games. Designed primarily by men. Programmed primarily by men. Targeted primarily to men.
Fig. B: Female human dressing herself to fit her own desires.

How are these two things alike? How can you possibly compare them or say "If A, then why not B?".

[theimage13]

Yes. I'm sure that a hi is almost never a hi. Source: I've lived as a woman. In my experience, the only people who sincerely say hi and honestly just mean that are neighbors. I've never had a stranger say hi and have it end there.

Well, that's depressing as fuck. And also: hi. That's all. Just hi.

[cashpiles (closed)]

I think both sexes need to take note of a big difference between the sexes. Men in general are sooner ready to have sex with someone than women in general are. And/or it's that men have lower or fewer requirements for sex to happen than women.

Do some women see a man and immediately think "I'd love to have sex with him"? I think this happens. However, the requirements for it to actually happen after that feeling is expressed are greater than after a man thinks "I'd love to have sex with her."

This is where the miscommunication comes in between the sexes and women feel/are violated. Men should take note of the different requirements for sex to happen with women and women should take note of the different requirements for sex to happen with men.

[botley]

I think both sexes need to take note of a big difference between the sexes. Men in general are sooner ready to have sex with someone than women in general are. And/or it's that men have lower or fewer requirements for sex to happen than women.

Do some women see a man and immediately think "I'd love to have sex with him"? I think this happens. However, the requirements for it to actually happen after that feeling is expressed are greater than after a man thinks "I'd love to have sex with her."

Just so you know, this is because men assault women.

[cashpiles (closed)]

How are these two things related?

Fig. A: Female characters in video games. Designed primarily by men. Programmed primarily by men. Targeted primarily to men.
Fig. B: Female human dressing herself to fit her own desires.

How are these two things alike? How can you possibly compare them or say "If A, then why not B?".

You're right that these are mostly different cases. However, the effect is the same isn't it? The result is someone who is dressed in a very sexy way that may cause people to notice them differently in the visual realm. The case for the videogames is that if men constantly see images of sexily dressed women it trains them to objectify women. The result is the same in real life if men constantly see women sexily dressed. That is Sarkeesian's argument anyways for why videogame fashion should change. As it's possible to see though, it does apply to real life in some way.

Women are saying: Don't objectify us and also "we dress this way because we like to dress this way". Ok, sure, but it's important to also know that men will visually see you as looking sexy.

It's a two-way street is what I'm trying to get at. Women want men to take women's reality into account. At the same time though, women should take men's reality into account. What I'm describing is respect. Yes, men should respect women's reality. At the same time though, women should respect men's reality. It's important to know how our sexes differ. Then, we can make more responsible decisions in regards to how we express ourselves and how we behave.

This ties into what @botley writes in post #471. Men need to take into account a woman's reality. Vice versa.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Just so you know, this is because men assault women.

What is because men assault women???

[botley]

What is because men assault women???

The different "requirements for sex to actually happen", as you put it. For women to give consent to sex. I'm being slightly reductive, but in general the threat of being abused or assaulted by men is ever-present for women. So it's really no big mystery why they would not immediately want to jump into bed with a man and instead want to feel safe with them first.

I'm no expert on this, but I believe studies have shown that women who have sex with women mostly exhibit different attitudes on a first date than women who are meeting a man for the first time, although some social awkwardness is inevitably consistent across interactions between all genders. It's because two women on a date (quite rationally) are not bracing against a potential assault, which is far more likely to be committed by a man.

This is a symptom of what people call "rape culture", where these behaviours are normalized as being inherent to gender roles, rather than a byproduct of socialized inequality between men and everybody else (that's what is actually happening).

[cashpiles (closed)]

This is a symptom of what people call "rape culture", where these behaviours are normalized as being inherent to gender roles, rather than a byproduct of inequality.

Yes, but I would say it's more a matter of education. Men at large need to understand the women's point of view. These men that don't see anything wrong with pushing women into sex against their will need to know the women's perspective and not only know about it, but empathize with the women's reality. The men that are part of the "rape culture" need to be set straight on not only WHAT is appropriate behavior but WHY it is appropriate behavior. A lot of men don't know the WHY. It sounds like they're idiots, but really many men need the education.

[botley]

Education should be a product of feminism, which is why I'm glad we are having this debate in this thread.

You're right that these are mostly different cases. However, the effect is the same isn't it? The result is someone who is dressed in a very sexy way that may cause people to notice them differently in the visual realm. The case for the videogames is that if men constantly see images of sexily dressed women it trains them to objectify women. The result is the same in real life if men constantly see women sexily dressed. That is Sarkeesian's argument anyways for why videogame fashion should change. As it's possible to see though, it does apply to real life in some way.

No, it's a real woman, not a character and so the result is not the same, unless the person playing the games is confusing them with real life (which FOR SURE happens all the fucking time but that has nothing to do with the hypothetical real woman in this scenario). The problems with video games depicting women in a certain sexualized way bear no relationship to women presenting themselves to the real world and everything to do with how men view women's sexuality.

Women are saying: Don't objectify us and also "we dress this way because we like to dress this way". Ok, sure, but it's important to also know that men will visually see you as looking sexy.

It's a two-way street is what I'm trying to get at. Women want men to take women's reality into account. At the same time though, women should take men's reality into account. What I'm describing is respect. Yes, men should respect women's reality. At the same time though, women should respect men's reality. It's important to know how our sexes differ. Then, we can make more responsible decisions in regards to how we express ourselves and how we behave.

My point is that women aren't the ones making their reality the way it is, men are — the men who threaten them. It shouldn't be their burden to make your view of their body less sexualized. It should be your responsibility (and mine, and all men's) to behave in a way that recognizes the dangers they live with every day as a result of the socialized male fixation on sexuality.

[theimage13]

You're right that these are mostly different cases. However, the effect is the same isn't it? The result is someone who is dressed in a very sexy way that may cause people to notice them differently in the visual realm. The case for the videogames is that if men constantly see images of sexily dressed women it trains them to objectify women. The result is the same in real life if men constantly see women sexily dressed. That is Sarkeesian's argument anyways for why videogame fashion should change. As it's possible to see though, it does apply to real life in some way.

Women are saying: Don't objectify us and also "we dress this way because we like to dress this way". Ok, sure, but it's important to also know that men will visually see you as looking sexy.

It's a two-way street is what I'm trying to get at. Women want men to take women's reality into account. At the same time though, women should take men's reality into account. What I'm describing is respect. Yes, men should respect women's reality. At the same time though, women should respect men's reality. It's important to know how our sexes differ. Then, we can make more responsible decisions in regards to how we express ourselves and how we behave.

This ties into what @botley writes in post #471. Men need to take into account a woman's reality. Vice versa.

No, Jesus Christ. Just no. Let me try this again.

Figure A: A MAN is deciding how a WOMAN will look. This is the man's choice.
Figure B: A WOMAN is making her OWN decision about how she will look. This is HER OWN choice.

See the difference yet?

Yes, a woman might go out clubbing in a short, skin tight strapless dress because it makes her feel sexy and she wants to find someone to fuck that night. That's HER choice to do that. That is drastically different than a group of men sitting in an office and thinking "we've got a few hundred million dollars to make this video game...let's dress the men in fairly practical and loose fitting clothes and give all the women giant tits and tight costumes". It's not a double standard because they're entirely different scenarios.

[Sarah K]

Women should reconsider how they dress to "respect men's reality".

No.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Women should reconsider how they dress to "respect men's reality".

No.

ok... I just want women to know that this turns men on... it's a fact that some women may find useful/important.

I'm going with the respect for one another's realities to direct my behavior. It's also a lens through which we can look at feminist issues.

I just want to know. Do you think men should respect women's realities? If so, do you think women should respect men's realities?

[orestes]

Are you giving men a pass because they can't control their "biological urges"?

[cashpiles (closed)]

Are you giving men a pass because they can't control their "biological urges"?

No. I'm just saying that there are biological urges. It is something to be aware of. Men must control them.

[Sarah K]

Being aware of reality and thinking that women should alter their behavior to cater to the reality of men are very different things, though.

[orestes]

I'm sorry but that is bullshit. Don't excuse a man's behavior on biology when it comes down to social conditioning.

Also, this conversation is heteronormative as fuck.