Twiggys abuse/rape allegations

[Shadaloo]

that's the thing - no one has said "you're not allowed to listen to marilyn manson" to anyone; no one has said "if you still listen to music twiggy was involved in, you're absolving him of his guilt" to anyone.

Just to clarify, if I wasn't enough, I was speaking to the notion of Jessicka implying that to attend a Manson concert or buy a record - in effect, enjoyment of Manson's music - implied any kind of support for Jeordie's actions or alleged actions, as renton had posted "Jessicka had said something close to that".

If she said that, and I stress if, that's rather unfair. But I'm not about to take issue with any part of her statement or start yammering about plausible deniability save to say I really want to hear what Twiggy has to say for himself. Until he does, yes, the most important thing to me is that people don't dismiss her offhand. That kind of behavior is, in a word, fucked.

Now, question: I've seen mentions of his behavior "During his time in NIN" and "other people coming forward". This...or something like it is said to have happened again? Did I miss something?

[Deacon Blackfire]

I have no doubt that Jessicka's statement is truthful and accurate. As others have successfully argued, I fail to see any plausible motive on her part for fabricating this account, and considering that, I think nurturing the notion that this was a lie, for personal gain (because rape accusers routinely parlay their accusations into fame and fortune and are always treated so well) or some kind of vendetta against Jeordie's character, is suggestive of an eagerness to avoid the issue, at best. At worst, it can seem a tacit accommodation of this kind of behavior and the people who engage in it.

I understand how people deeply invested in Jeordie as an artist are in a rough and difficult place right now, and I know that's not a factor for me because I have no investment in his musical work, with Manson or otherwise, and never liked his static, uninvolved presence in NIN, but clinging to the hope that this is some big lie *for reasons* isn't just refusing to believe Jessicka, its denying Jeordie's self-cultivated reputation for being a perverted, STI-spreading douchebag whose main focus was groupies or, rather, their bodies (which, as has been pointed out, even the Meathead material from that era evidences). Rapists can be anyone and I'm not trying to shame promiscuity, but it always seemed generally accepted that he was kind of a pig and that definitely isn't irrelevant. Like, did Jeordie actually pass STIs to others knowingly? Because someone who will accept negatively affecting the health of someone as long as they get to fuck them seems pretty consistent with what Jessicka describes.

The fact he has remained silent as of this point should not make you trust him more.

I know this is probably difficult for Trent to address but does anyone else think that it would be good form for him to make a statement concerning these revelations? Jeordie may have been in NIN live years ago but he was still a member of the band. And more pressingly, Trent himself is party to one of the events Jessicka describes, and if he can recall and corroborate what she claims, it would go a long way to insuring that the benefit of the doubt is not predictably afforded to the accused but not his accuser.

Now, question: I've seen mentions of his behavior "During his time in NIN" and "other people coming forward". This...or something like it is said to have happened again? Did I miss something?

Also curious about these other accounts and what they concern.

[Conan The Barbarian]

I think it would be best for anyone not named jeordie or Jessicka to get involved into this. No one besides those two should comment on anything.

[sweeterthan]

I don’t see reznor making a statement about this at all. It doesn’t seem like something he would do.


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[ton]

With these kind of things, I do get emotional about but I always wait until it gets to court and we learn more about the incidents. That being said, it is hard to not believe the victim's side of the story here. It's too detailed, elaborate, and consistent to think otherwise. We'll just have to see.

[allegro]

Also curious about these other accounts and what they concern.

It’s in Jessicka’s Facebook post (see first post in this thread).

With these kind of things, I do get emotional about but I always wait until it gets to court and we learn more about the incidents. That being said, it is hard to not believe the victim's side of the story here. It's too detailed, elaborate, and consistent to think otherwise. We'll just have to see.

It happened more than 20 years ago. It’s not going to Court. We’re not getting any more info.

[ton]

It’s in Jessicka’s Facebook post (see first post in this thread).


It happened more than 20 years ago. It’s not going to Court. We’re not getting any more info.

I'm sorry, my mistake.

[Shadaloo]

It’s in Jessicka’s Facebook post (see first post in this thread).

Okay, grapevine effect in action. Refers to the time when Manson opened up for NIN during the 90's, and not during Jeordie's time in NIN many years later, which clearly myself and maybe others may have read/heard wrong for a sec. Thanks for helping to clarify.

[Disassociative]

I’m sorry I’ve been such a jerk about this. It’s just... imagine waking up one day and finding out Trent has been accused doing some monstrous shit in the 90s when he was an addict. I personally don’t place Twiggy as high up as him, I love the music Twiggy was written, im a huge fan of his involvement in Marilyn Manson, I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I even liked him in NIN and he was one of my inspirations to finally learn how to play a bass (D’arcy Wretzky was the other).
I guess I just don’t want to believe someone I admire is a piece of shit.

[Disassociative]

I dismissed Jessickas claims too harshly, ill own up to that. I’m sorry for her distress and who am I am to say she’s lying I was a fucking baby when this shit went down.

[renton44]

Just to clarify, if I wasn't enough, I was speaking to the notion of Jessicka implying that to attend a Manson concert or buy a record - in effect, enjoyment of Manson's music - implied any kind of support for Jeordie's actions or alleged actions, as renton had posted "Jessicka had said something close to that".

She had said it a few months ago and the post appears now to be really heavily edited (July 19th post on the Jack off Jill fb page). It was a really random fb post that almost seemed non-sense-ical (if that is a word...). Was super random. If I remember correctly it started off with "I can no longer support my rapist..." She went on to say if you are in some group called the Manson Cult (?) to please not follow her and saying if you were attending Manson shows you are supporting a rapist. She left it really fn vague, and a few comments down people started to piece it together that she was referring to Jeordie. She has since updated the post, as I guess she realized she was being overly harsh (going to shows = support, bit of stretch) and being vague in a claim like this is NEVER a good idea. Also full fleshed out thoughts are better than exploding emotions with fragments going this way and that. See the quote below as she is referring to the post I am speaking of. That said....

The July 19th time stamp proves to me she is telling the truth. This is waaaay before the #metoo movement and the Wienstien (sp?) thing. Not to mention, Heaven Upside Down didn't even have a release date yet. I think tickets for the shows weren't even on sale. I think her trigger was the Portrait Anniversary or Anniversary of Gidget's death, one of those two or both. At the same time though, there have been fans who claimed she was lying then and is lying now. There is a deeper history here than I than know, but her comment came at a time when there was nothing to gain and nothing to 'de-rail' so to speak. I believe her as right now, she is the only voice I hear. Silence speaks volumes sometimes.

"In all this dismay, I made another vague reference on July 19 of this year on Facebook. This post, like my emotions, was all over the place. I was upset. I was angry. I had had enough, and was still dealing with pain, both psychical and visceral. Who is anyone to say what a survivor should or should not have done? Or should or should not have said? There was no playbook for me to read to navigate the right way to tell my story. I just survived on rage an unfocused instinct. Is there a time limit on telling the truth or does it expire with age? Is there a right way to say it? It being the truth. 20 plus years of hiding this shame and rage, so I wouldn’t rock anyone’s boats, or roll any heads? Time was running out for me. I’d had enough."

[playwithfire]

Something I think might be good to bring up here that people seem to struggle with is that lots of people you admire, care about, and like have likely done shit ranging from creepy behavior to rape.

There's this knee-jerk "but I like him, this is hard" and then denial... but people are complex and us acting like violating someone's consent is something that only a true monster is capable is only setting us up for failure in terms of growth. In Twiggy's case... dude does seem like an absolute piece of shit, but then you look at people like Bowie and Iggy Pop, who I admire, who slept with underage teens, etc. It's a lot more productive to accept that someone is flawed (without excusing it) than to hold up everyone you think is good to some sort of standard of goodness that results in you ignoring when they fuck up.

[ViN]

Manson just kicked Twiggy's rapist ass to the curb

Fuck that loser. Doesn't mean I'm gonna go burning my
copies of Manson albums and Beside You in Time or 13th Step, but fuck Twiggy. What a piece
of shit.

[khris]

Did anyone see the photos that Marilyn Manson posted before they were removed?
https://www.alternativenation.net/ma...courtney-love/


Edit:

Oh nevermind, I did a google search of the link and viewed the cached version of the post. Tada!

[Haysey_Draws]

This whole thing is just fucking awful! Nobody should ever be raped, let alone have to 'deal' with it for so long.

What makes it worse is these are our musical heroes being revealed to be demons. We've spent years following them and enjoying what they make, only to then have to face the grim reality that they've done awful things.

The lesson it seems is, don't have heroes...and don't rape people for fucks sake!

[icklekitty]

I’m sorry I’ve been such a jerk about this. It’s just... imagine waking up one day and finding out Trent has been accused doing some monstrous shit in the 90s when he was an addict. I personally don’t place Twiggy as high up as him, I love the music Twiggy was written, im a huge fan of his involvement in Marilyn Manson, I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I even liked him in NIN and he was one of my inspirations to finally learn how to play a bass (D’arcy Wretzky was the other).
I guess I just don’t want to believe someone I admire is a piece of shit.

I guess I'm quite good at separating the art from the artist. I love the shit out of NIN but I see Trent as NIN's dad more than anything else. Although, I do have a rule of not getting a tattoo (or similar gesture) for anyone who is still alive just in case they turn into a cunt (and even then posthumous scandal sometimes happens!)

[Disassociative]

I guess I'm quite good at separating the art from the artist. I love the shit out of NIN but I see Trent as NIN's dad more than anything else. Although, I do have a rule of not getting a tattoo (or similar gesture) for anyone who is still alive just in case they turn into a cunt (and even then posthumous scandal sometimes happens!)

Thats a smart rule to live by haha I mean jesus people who got LostProphets related tattoos must have been like “oh god what have I done” after that shitstorm came to light

[sweeterthan]

I guess I'm quite good at separating the art from the artist. I love the shit out of NIN but I see Trent as NIN's dad more than anything else. Although, I do have a rule of not getting a tattoo (or similar gesture) for anyone who is still alive just in case they turn into a cunt (and even then posthumous scandal sometimes happens!)

NIN's dad? What's that mean?

I had to separate the art from the artist last year. A friend of mine is also one of my favorite musicians and i found out through the grapevine he abused his partner. I talked to him six weeks after it happened. He sounded great. He was funny and friendly. He didn't mention the incident to me and i didn't know about it yet. When i found out a few months later, i was floored. How could he sound so well in the wake of this? How could he pretend that everything is fine? In hindsight, i think he was calling me to see if i knew about it.

It's been over a year since I found out. I still listen to his music but I will never trust him again. I'd still answer the phone if he called but I feel like that one conversation revealed so much to me. I don't hang out with them anymore so its not like our friendship is even affected but the whole thing felt horrible. I can see why fans of jeordie are disturbed. It is something to be upset about.

[icklekitty]

It’s interesting to see people struggle with the realisation that life isn’t black and white, for sure.

[Amaro]

Let the record show I never have been a Jeordie “fan”. If you'd asked me about him before this, I'd have said he is an interesting looking individual (no disrespect). Cool bass tone. Even if this was Trent, well I don't "know" Trent. That'd come as a shock, but not a SHOCK.

I said what I said in this thread early on about “sides” in this situation because, while I am a very sensitive and very sympathetic individual (and never dismissed Jessicka’s claims), I have no business investing myself. Letting emotion get the best of me in any capacity usually has ended with me hurt or in some dirt, so I try to refrain. I’ve worked in a setting where I’ve had to come face to face with individuals who’ve been convicted of basically the same terrible things Jeordie is accused of, and then some. I'm NOT indifferent about rape. It's awful, and that's from only trying to imagine. I've been used before, but not anywhere close to something even like that.

For me, at this point, it is enough to think of Jeordie as someone who's accused of rape and abuse (and other stuff that is suggestively true), and so far has not acknowledged or denied these allegations, which, after enough time that has passed, yes--I find this does not look good on him at all.

Jessicka's voice has been heard, as it should be. I absolutely support her in going public, just as I would anyone else who is bearing such a weight.

[Sarah K]

My friend who once upon a rime was a music journalist and spent a lot of time interviewing bands says Twiggy took his dick out when she was interviewing them. Says she just ignored him and asked another question.

[Conan The Barbarian]

My friend who once upon a rime was a music journalist and spent a lot of time interviewing bands says Twiggy took his dick out when she was interviewing them. Says she just ignored him and asked another question.

But twiggy always took out his dick. That’s not really a shocker.

[botley]

White's carefully-worded statement. Emphasis mine:

"I have only recently been made aware of these allegations from over 20 years ago," White said in a statement. "I do not condone non-consensual sex of any kind."

"I will be taking some time to spend with my family and focus on maintaining my several years of sobriety," White continued in his statement. "If I have caused anyone pain I apologize and truly regret it."

There it is, the non-apology apology and non-admission admittal in PR doublespeak for all to see. This sounds like it was written by Marilyn Manson's lawyers, not by Jeordie himself.

[Sarah K]

But twiggy always took out his dick. That’s not really a shocker.

Oh, wow. I had no idea. So dude has had no concept of consent and has displayed completely inappropriate behavior and boundaries for decades and people are still "shocked" by this account and think she is lying?

Impressive mental gymnastics.

What a fucking shit person.

[sweeterthan]

Oh, wow. I had no idea. So dude has had no concept of consent and has displayed completely inappropriate behavior and boundaries for decades and people are still "shocked" by this account and think she is lying?

Impressive mental gymnastics.

What a fucking shit person.

I knew about his inappropriate behavior. People have talked about it online for years now. I also used to think this was just rock and roll dude behavior. In the past, I accepted it in so many ways so many times. Ugh.

[tremolo]

This whole thing is just fucking awful! Nobody should ever be raped, let alone have to 'deal' with it for so long.

What makes it worse is these are our musical heroes being revealed to be demons. We've spent years following them and enjoying what they make, only to then have to face the grim reality that they've done awful things.

The lesson it seems is, don't have heroes...and don't rape people for fucks sake!

I think it’s important to separate the art from the artist/person, cause it’s their art that we fall in love with in the first place and then we tend to create an idea of the person based on just ideas and who knows what, cause we don’t really know them AT ALL, even if we get to shake their hands, we don’t know anything about them, their demons, what they’re capable of, the horrible things they’ve done, etc.

It’s ok to have heroes, but it’s important not to build an idea around them based on creations of our own minds.

What Twiggy allegedly did is awful and I can’t really understand how anyone can do such a horrible thing and ruin someone else’s life like that. How the music he created inspired a lot of kids to get over their own demons and issues is a completely different story.

[thevoid99]

And here's Jeordie response about the allegation and.... it's fucking weak: https://www.avclub.com/ex-marilyn-ma...-st-1819888318

[GulDukat]

White's carefully-worded statement. Emphasis mine:


There it is, the non-apology apology and non-admission admittal in PR doublespeak for all to see. This sounds like it was written by Marilyn Manson's lawyers, not by Jeordie himself.

I think Twiggy's responce pretty much confirms that it happened, all of it. At least now I can enjoy the show when it comes to Boston, with White gone.

[renton44]

White's carefully-worded statement. Emphasis mine:


There it is, the non-apology apology and non-admission admittal in PR doublespeak for all to see. This sounds like it was written by Marilyn Manson's lawyers, not by Jeordie himself.

It certainly seems to be a lawyer advised statement but what do we really expect? He can't really come out and call her a liar or defend himself too much. If he does that, and I know this sounds strange, but public opinion on him would get even worse. Some will say he is victim shaming and others will say he is in denial, all the while escalating nastiness between his fans and hers. Comments on his wife's twitter account have been BRUTAL over the last few days, and she has nothing to do with this. So, I think that is what he means about being with his family, she has become a causality in this. That said, I think this has given us a lot to talk about.

I think his statement says quite a bit. It seems to me he is basically admitting that when he wasn't sober he really had no true recollection of what he did or didn't do. It is why I think he mentions his sobriety. You know "Fuck your couch Charlie Murphy!" Not that he isn't responsible for his actions, but it is quite possible that most of those years are a drug haze to him. There is a pretty decent chance he doesn't remember much of it, maybe fragments. But he is basically also admitting that is not an excuse.

Ultimately, I think he knows he did some really questionable shit back in the day and that his lack of sobriety played a giant role in it. This is the man that snorted sea monkeys at one point. He did mention his sobriety anniversary on twitter/facebook over the last 5 or 6 years or so (March sometime I think) and was proud of the positive changes it had for him. I think he knew this day was going to come at some point, and has chosen not to fight it, deny it, or excuse it because he could see himself having done these things and that he is aware he has/had a temper. As Jessicka said in her own post, there were two Jeordie Whites.

Anyway, I am NOT a rape apologist and I do think he did it. But I think drug use played a very large role in bringing out the worst aspects of this person. It isn't an excuse but it seems to be a cause. People change, and the Jeordie White of the last 10 years or so is not the same guy from 20 years ago, but the man today is paying for the actions of his past life so to speak.

[Kulerage]

This is...
interesting. What a way to return from my short break. I love the stuff he did for Manson, and while I might not enjoy them as much anymore, I know I still will. Whether this is fake or not, it's still very tragic, false or not.