Controversial Music Opinions...

[ambergris]

Couldn't agree with you more, allegro. Recent Madonna is awful indeed, but I don't see the need to savage her like that. She maintained a very, very high level of quality for a very, very long time. Who else in pop could manage that? For longevity and continued innovation it's her and Bowie and err... um, well, it looks like my post is finished.

I have a little pet theory that even the great artists only have maximal 10 years of brilliance. The Beatles/solo projects: 1962-72. The Rolling Stones: 1964-72. Brian Eno 1972-1982. Bob Dylan 1964-1975 (ok, the divorce was good for another productive year). The key to surpassing those 10 years is re-invention. That's how Madonna got 20 years of relevance. David Bowie turned from indie-star to global pop star after 1980. That got him a few more years. Brian Eno's solo material after 1982 was forgettable, but he turned producer. Miles Davis consistently reinvented himself and probably has the longest relevant career of all modern music acts, but he isn't really pop anyway.

[henryeatscereal]

"King for a day... Fool for a lifetime" is Faith No More's best album (It also has the best cover)

[aggroculture]

Totally. Angel Dust is great too, but it has a dated 80s feel to it, and they hadn't quite ditched the funk-metal elements yet.

[henryeatscereal]

Totally. Angel Dust is great too, but it has a dated 80s feel to it, and they hadn't quite ditched the funk-metal elements yet.

"Angel Dust" is the close second in FNM's (great) discography but i agree i think it has aged badly and some of their "tricks" worked better in the early 90's...
In third place i'll put "The Real Thing" and since this is "controversial opinions" i'll say FNM is the best band of the 90's and they should release a new album...

[piggy]

other good examples of 90s artists going electronic- blur's 13, r.e.m.'s up, smashing pumpkins' adore, and i suppose you could count ok computer here, too.

There really was a huge gravitation towards electronic elements in 1997-98, wasn't there? Not sure what brought all that on, but it was kind of cool. Even more examples are David Byrne's Feelings, PJ Harvey's Is This Desire, U2's Pop, James' Whiplash and The Cure's "Wrong Number" single.

I have a little pet theory that even the great artists only have maximal 10 years of brilliance.

I can get on board with this. I find that all of my favorite artists (and they have all been around for at least 20 years) have a tidy period of about 10 years where I feel they were at their best.

[r_z]

I think, there's a danger of overlooking some great records by following that theory. Bowie, for example, had a great little run in the 90's again (Outside, Earthling, ...). He just didn't have the same impact or influence on the culture, which is why his 90s records tend to get underrated. I just recently read Peter Doggett's book about Bowie called "The Man Who Sold The World - David Bowie And The Seventies" (which is a great read btw) and in it he pointed out:

"Few if any of his peers, especially those who enjoyed his degree of success, have maintained any sense of vitality in their careers beyond ten or at most twenty years of creative innovation. In any case, innovation is hard to sustain when one's audience clearly prefers familiar pleasures. Albums such as "1. Outside" and "Earthling" stand up alongside the peaks of Bowie's seventies catalogue as exercises in inventiveness and daring; what they lack is meaning, any sense that they are shaping the culture around them [...]. When the world refuses to let you change and your body tells you to stop, it is more dignified to remain silent than to fight against the inevitable."

He goes on (this might not add to the conversation above, but is a nice observation, I think...):

"There is a valid case, in fact, for awarding Bowie the dubious credit of being the inventor of modern celebrity culture, in which a nonentity can be thrust into the maelstrom of media attention by virtue of a single appearance on a reality TV series or a talent show. But there is a profound difference between Bowie's self -manufacturing as a superstar in the early seventies, and the culture of The X Factor and Big Brother. Bowie was using stardom as a vehicle to explore deeper personal and social issues; artiface and irony were his weapons. in the twenty-first century, celebrity is its own reward and today's instant superstars are selling nothing more momentous than their own fame. Artiface has become reality; irony has lost its purpose. Communication is instant, and ceaseless; but nothing is being said. No wonder, that David Bowie, who always had something to communicate, has chosen to follow Major Tom into isolated silence, a distand observer of a world that he had once illuminated and enriched."

[frankie teardrop]

There really was a huge gravitation towards electronic elements in 1997-98, wasn't there? Not sure what brought all that on, but it was kind of cool. Even more examples are David Byrne's Feelings, PJ Harvey's Is This Desire, U2's Pop, James' Whiplash and The Cure's "Wrong Number" single.

yeah, there was the general consensus in the 90s that the guitar was dead. electronica was booming in the underground and starting to go mainstream with aphex twin, chemical brothers, orbital, massive attack, etc. the rock sound was pretty stagnant at the time and this was a move to stay relevant. fortunately, it worked for most.

another one for the list- cardigans- gran turismo. always loved that album!



also forgot how much of a babe nina persson is...

[DVYDRNS]

Long gone before daylight is one of my favorite albums of all time. its beautiful and sad.

[piggy]

I think, there's a danger of overlooking some great records by following that theory. Bowie, for example, had a great little run in the 90's again (Outside, Earthling, ...).

Oh, I know there is and I agree with you about Bowie. Which is why, if I'm really interested in an artist, I'll investigate as much of their catalog as I can. You could perhaps refine this theory by saying that there often seems to be a period of about 10 years where each album within said period was consistently solid with no duds anywhere. Of course, there are always some other very important albums that don't fall into that bracket simply because of where they land on the timeline. For example: I personally think R.E.M.'s consistently best period was 1986-96, but obviously an album like Murmur (from 1983) cannot be overlooked. So yeah, it's definitely not a theory for anyone to base their musical exploration on, but I do see what ambergris is getting at.

[hobochic]

Speaking of With Teeth in the NIN Spotting thread... Everything post WT sounds too much like sterile laptop-plug-in music compared to massive mixing console records. There's a very thin sound to it all, and his bleeps and buzzing sounds are tired as F#*!. That's strange when thinking of Trent's boner for analogue equipment when he never really lets it sound fat, thick and organic. I think that Trent wanted to become everything that he thought other creative and alternative bands were (radiohead) and started a cock fight featuring photos of wires, pedals and synths to show off his lack of patience to actually sit down, take his time and write solid albums.

Props to NIN though for coming with the cheesiest (read: most stupid) album warning sticker since Tipper Gore: "Year Zero with 16 noisy new songs."

[Jinsai]

Speaking of With Teeth in the NIN Spotting thread... Everything post WT sounds too much like sterile laptop-plug-in music compared to massive mixing console records. There's a very thin sound to it all, and his bleeps and buzzing sounds are tired as F#*!. That's strange when thinking of Trent's boner for analogue equipment when he never really lets it sound fat, thick and organic. I think that Trent wanted to become everything that he thought other creative and alternative bands were (radiohead) and started a cock fight featuring photos of wires, pedals and synths to show off his lack of patience to actually sit down, take his time and write solid albums.

Props to NIN though for coming with the cheesiest (read: most stupid) album warning sticker since Tipper Gore: "Year Zero with 16 noisy new songs."

I don't know, I think the song The Great Destroyer is pretty mean sounding in a big awesome way. Then again, I also think Year Zero, Ghosts (especially), and The Slip are better albums than With Teeth. None of those compare with TDS, Broken, or The Fragile, but they have their moments.

Also, was that sticker really on the album? I don't remember that

aaaaaaaaaand... plug in synths can sound big and fat in a huge menacing way imo. The Native Instruments plugins are awesome like that. If you can't get a big sound out of FM8 or Massive, you're doing it wrong.

[piggy]

Also, was that sticker really on the album? I don't remember that

Yes, I remember that sticker very well.

[october_midnight]

yeah, there was the general consensus in the 90s that the guitar was dead. electronica was booming in the underground and starting to go mainstream with aphex twin, chemical brothers, orbital, massive attack, etc. the rock sound was pretty stagnant at the time and this was a move to stay relevant. fortunately, it worked for most.

another one for the list- cardigans- gran turismo. always loved that album!



also forgot how much of a babe nina persson is...

Fucking LOVE Cardigans...holy shit. Gran Turismo is great. Never saw them live but got to see Nina's band A Camp at the smallest club here and even have a few drinks with her and her husband Nathan. And yes, she's smokin' lol.

[hobochic]

I don't know, I think the song The Great Destroyer is pretty mean sounding in a big awesome way. Then again, I also think Year Zero, Ghosts (especially), and The Slip are better albums than With Teeth. None of those compare with TDS, Broken, or The Fragile, but they have their moments.

Also, was that sticker really on the album? I don't remember that

aaaaaaaaaand... plug in synths can sound big and fat in a huge menacing way imo. The Native Instruments plugins are awesome like that. If you can't get a big sound out of FM8 or Massive, you're doing it wrong.

The Great Destroyer is actually one of my favorite moments in Year Zero together with Zero-Sum. I also like Ghosts and The Slip but I never quite can compare them to the console sound of 90's NIN. Laptops and plugins can be awesome but in NIN's catalogue it sounds rushed and not quite fully developed. Trent's excitement to "release a new song the same day it's mastered" has a nice ring to it, but fails as it often ends up sounding like an early demo.

[jmtd]

Throbbing Gristle have about three worthwhile tracks and the rest is forgettable.

Edit to add:

RE the sterility on post-WT tracks. I think I hear that too, but my best guess as to the cause is that it's all too regular, which is another symptom of it being all sequenced to precise beat intervals etc.

[Jinsai]

I didn't realize this was a controversial opinion until now, but Madonna has one good song, and that's Like a Prayer, and the rest of her catalogue can fuck off along with her lame attempts to reinvent herself... and if I hear one more person compare her in any way to David Bowie.... well, I'm not going to do anything about it, but goddamn I'll be sadder for you having done such a thing.

Don't make me sad. Leave David Bowie out of this.

[aggroculture]

David Bowie is a legend and rightly so and I fucking love some of his songs, but half of his music (probably more) isn't that great.

Throbbing Gristle have about three worthwhile tracks and the rest is forgettable.

Please tell me which ones they are!!! I've been trying - and failing - to get into TG for years. No, decades.

None of those compare with TDS, Broken, or The Fragile, but they have their moments.

To me NIN hasn't released a groundbreaking record since TDS. He's still an occasionally great songwriter. Though his soundscapes are getting a little old. But I find his post-TDS output lacking that vision, intensity, and fearlessness of the early years. Perhaps he'll get his second wind sometime in the future, not when he's comfortable like now (winning Oscars, writing TV series, playing in HDTA), but when he needs to remind people again of who TR was.

"Angel Dust" is the close second in FNM's (great) discography but i agree i think it has aged badly and some of their "tricks" worked better in the early 90's...
In third place i'll put "The Real Thing" and since this is "controversial opinions" i'll say FNM is the best band of the 90's and they should release a new album...

Yeah, I wish they would stop milking the live circuit like RATM and get in the studio. I hope they will get up their courage and do it at some point.
I love TRT - it has some fantastic songs on it. I love AD and its darkness, though sometimes I find it a little harsh and overly noisy in places. AD does have some of FNM's best ever songs: Everything's Ruined, Midlife Crisis, Crack Hitler.
It's AOTY that was the big let-down. First time FNM had repeated themselves: I see it as a more polished version of KFAD. I do love it (Mouth to Mouth and Home Sick Home kick ass: and Last Cup of Sorrow, Helpless, and She Loves Me Not are great songs too), but it's a little bland sometimes.
KFAD has just got that perfect mix between aggression and melody.

Fucking LOVE Cardigans...holy shit. Gran Turismo is great.

I love Gran Turismo, that album was very important to me, especially the song My Favourite Game. But I never was able to get into their other albums.

[Jinsai]

Please tell me which ones they are!!! I've been trying - and failing - to get into TG for years. No, decades.

When you realize why everything Limp Bizkit has done sucks, you shall understand why Throbbing Gristle are awesome.

But yeah. The Cardigans are actually really underrated. Gran Turismo was a great album, and that one that nobody listened to (Long Gone before Daylight) was actually really amazing in some segments. I don't get why they are so criminally underrated...

[jmtd]

Please tell me which ones they are!!! I've been trying - and failing - to get into TG for years. No, decades.

IMHO Hamburger Lady; AB/7A; and for number 3… I guess I was working under the assumption that there's a 3rd decent track that I haven't heard yet. "Hot on the Heels of Love" is kind-of alright. Actually I haven't heard anything they've done since the 80s but snippets and excerpts sounds pretty good. "Desertshore/The Final Report" might be worth a listen when it's out.

[Jinsai]

Well, this is going to be a bizarre post, but this is one of the best pop songs I've heard in years, but nobody noticed because the video is pretty goddamn weird. I felt the need to throw this in here given the minor debate about why Throbbing Gristle is great, but this song is actually a magnificent throwaway track that actually has intense love and detail put into the electronic arrangement, and as a pop song it excels where most stuff just sounds boring and predictable.

If staring at Genesis makes you feel like he's eating your soul, just try to get behind how good the actual song here is.

[ambergris]

I think, there's a danger of overlooking some great records by following that theory. Bowie, for example, had a great little run in the 90's again (Outside, Earthling, ...). He just didn't have the same impact or influence on the culture, which is why his 90s records tend to get underrated. I just recently read Peter Doggett's book about Bowie called "The Man Who Sold The World - David Bowie And The Seventies" (which is a great read btw) and in it he pointed out:

Well, some artists are hard to classify. The core period of Bowie's talent is only ten years: 1971-1980. But that leaves out Space Oddity and his biggest hits, from Under Pressure to Absolute Beginners. Also, Hunky Dory was a commercial failure at first, but now it's a classic. The Man Who Sold the World also turned into a classic, thanks to the Nirvana cover. And yes, Bowie's revival in the 90's was also important, but with less cultural impact. It's the same with Bob Dylan's comeback since Time Out of Mind. He also had terrible 80's, but Bowie was at least still successful and a cultural force.
About Madonna, she was probably Pop music's biggest solo star after Michael Jackson turned weird. Yes, her songs often are easily digestible pieces for pure entertainment, but somehow she managed to direct modern culture for about 20 years with that - from Like a Virgin in 1984 until, probably, Hung Up in 2005. I just want to add that there are not many artists who would have made a song like 'Frozen' into a hit. That says something.

[Jinsai]

Well, some artists are hard to classify. The core period of Bowie's talent is only ten years: 1971-1980. But that leaves out Space Oddity and his biggest hits, from Under Pressure to Absolute Beginners. Also, Hunky Dory was a commercial failure at first, but now it's a classic. The Man Who Sold the World also turned into a classic, thanks to the Nirvana cover. And yes, Bowie's revival in the 90's was also important, but with less cultural impact. It's the same with Bob Dylan's comeback since Time Out of Mind. He also had terrible 80's, but Bowie was at least still successful and a cultural force.
About Madonna, she was probably Pop music's biggest solo star after Michael Jackson turned weird. Yes, her songs often are easily digestible pieces for pure entertainment, but somehow she managed to direct modern culture for about 20 years with that - from Like a Virgin in 1984 until, probably, Hung Up in 2005. I just want to add that there are not many artists who would have made a song like 'Frozen' into a hit. That says something.

And, just to be a contrarian, I don't think "Frozen" is that great of a song. Nice music video though sure.

But I can't look at bowie the way you do. It's more peaks and valleys than that. It's not "from Ziggy to this point he was great." It's also not "The eno trilogy is where he truly excelled" crowd's opinion, or the people who think Lodger is better than Low.

Bowie excelled at being a shapeshifting pop genius.... and as soon as we're willing to stop talking about Madonna in the same sentence, I'll gush and rant about why Bowie is THE greatest pop star of all time.

Also, Michael Jackson is fucking overrated. Sorry to all who disagree, but I don't agree with you guys who disagree with me. I think Scream is an actually amazing song, and that Billie Jean and Smooth Criminal may have the best basslines ever in pop music... but fuck the rest of this music.
Except for "Stranger in Moscow" which is a really odd but undeniably epic song about something totally nonsensical in the best way.

[ambergris]

Bowie excelled at being a shapeshifting pop genius.... and as soon as we're willing to stop talking about Madonna in the same sentence, I'll gush and rant about why Bowie is THE greatest pop star of all time.

Well, being a shapeshifting pop genius also describes Madonna pretty well. That guy r_z quoted, about Bowie being the first self-manufacturing pop star is probably true. He invented the 'new look with a new album'. Madonna did the same, from helium-voiced starlet, to material girl, etc... and that esoteric queen in the Frozen video. I don't think the song is that good either, but it certainly is something different.

[frankie teardrop]

IMHO Hamburger Lady; AB/7A; and for number 3… I guess I was working under the assumption that there's a 3rd decent track that I haven't heard yet. "Hot on the Heels of Love" is kind-of alright. Actually I haven't heard anything they've done since the 80s but snippets and excerpts sounds pretty good. "Desertshore/The Final Report" might be worth a listen when it's out.

if you're going to listen to ONE throbbing gristle record, make it 20 jazz funk greats, which is both their most accessible and most coherent.

jinsai, that psychic tv song is excellent. a LOT of great pop moments i the PTV catalog, despite the murky experimental beginnings. 'just drifting' gives me chills, in that ballady scott walker kind of way. 'godstar' is another perfect pop song i never get sick of hearing. any rolling stones fan should be all over that one.

chris and cosey were AWESOME, too. peep the following:

driving blind
hazey daze
october love song
etc. etc. etc.

the people who think Lodger is better than Low.

those people exist? i'd make a case for heroes over low... but otherwise...?

to all: while i agree that bowie's 70s work is strongest, i concur on peaks on valleys approach. even hunky dory has a few clunkers (fill your heart, eight line poem, and i've NEVER liked changes, oh well) and there's usually some rough covers here and there (it ain't easy, red money/sister midnight) etc. yes, the 70s albums are brilliant. few of them are truly flawless though.

[Highly Psychological]

Throbbing Gristle's earliest stuff is their best. The experimental extremely loud harsh sound scapes to me sound very different to what came later on 20 Jazz Funk Greats.
The TG24 boxset from 2002 documents their early shows, in Hackney which made them as notorious as the Sex Pistols. They were circulating as bootlegs for years. I like their later stuff, but i think the shows from 1976-77 showcased they were on to something mind blowing. Its so so loud!!
Weird video but good audio.

[WorzelG]

IMHO Hamburger Lady; AB/7A; and for number 3… I guess I was working under the assumption that there's a 3rd decent track that I haven't heard yet. "Hot on the Heels of Love" is kind-of alright. Actually I haven't heard anything they've done since the 80s but snippets and excerpts sounds pretty good. "Desertshore/The Final Report" might be worth a listen when it's out.

Just saw a glowing review of Desertshore / the final report on the Guardian website

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012...iew?CMP=twt_gu

[BlueCalx]

I'm not much invested in Madonna - I like two of her LP's straight through and loads of her singles here and there. With the exception of Ray of Light, nothing she's done has ever made me feel anything stronger than "This is OK" or "This isn't much of anything". I'm much more invested in Bowie, though I'm far from a superfan. I do think that with the comparisons between the two, where there's smoke, there's fire. Lasting longer than 10 years in pop is a tricky business, those two have managed it. Both pull their influences from outside their respective genres, and both, right up till recent years, displayed an impressive ability to bet on the right trends. That's where the comparison ends for me. I can certainly understand why a big fan of either artist wouldn't want to hear it, though.

A controversial opinion: I wish to god that "Gangnam Style" wasn't a one-hit wonder, and that Psy would stick around! "Gangnam Style" was a hit for a reason - it was packed with hooks, well-produced, and promoted by a funny, memorable video. Who else, in 2012, made a video worth watching more than once? Psy radiates charisma. Placed next to busted, wheezing Madonna and glassy-eyed mannequin Britney, he comes away looking like the coolest guy EVER. We could use more like him. It was nice to hear something in the top 10 that wasn't just about partying until sweet Death comes and whisks us away, too.

[carpenoctem]

Who else, in 2012, made a video worth watching more than once?

Bat For Lashes' "Laura" is the best video. And I don't like music videos.

[allegro]

A controversial opinion: I wish to god that "Gangnam Style" wasn't a one-hit wonder, and that Psy would stick around! "Gangnam Style" was a hit for a reason - it was packed with hooks, well-produced, and promoted by a funny, memorable video. Who else, in 2012, made a video worth watching more than once? Psy radiates charisma. Placed next to busted, wheezing Madonna and glassy-eyed mannequin Britney, he comes away looking like the coolest guy EVER. We could use more like him. It was nice to hear something in the top 10 that wasn't just about partying until sweet Death comes and whisks us away, too.

I guess the song and video pokes fun at the snotty fake upper-class Gangnam crowd in South Korea?

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...NT04/209260304

[Jinsai]

Ministry's ever popular "Jesus Built My Hotrod" is a terrible song and I don't really get how it has the praise it does.

It's fun and completely unlike the rest of their music, so it stands out in that way. It's not my favorite Ministry song by a long shot, but I don't see it as terrible at all.