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Thread: Controversial Music Opinions...

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    But again even though they are hugely influential & an awesome band, this doesn't mean it's a fact that they are good.
    I never said it was. I could say something like "Keep up 007?" but then I'd feel like a douchebag.

    By overrated I mean people often give them credit for things they didn't start... I'm glad you acknowledge music before The Beatles but nonetheless you are implying that rock music was jack shit before The Beatles, which isn't true, is giving them a bit more credit than they deserve, which qualifies as overrating
    No, I implied The Beatles changed all rock music that followed them. They're not the only band that changed everything, but they fucking did. Even if a band wasn't influenced by The Beatles, they were almost certainly influenced by a band that was, especially if we're talking about relatively modern bands. Their influence was immediate and has persisted today, though I'd love to hear some good music made by a band that either hasn't heard The Beatles or thinks they suck. That sounds like a "fun" exercise.

    The Beatles are NOT "overrated." It's a lame and lazy criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    You've hit the Nine-Inch Nail on the head. I was just listening to Skryllex and thinking the next NIN record definitely needs some WUB-WUB-WUB
    I don't agree entirely with Joymode... I actually think Ghosts is the most interesting and fun thing NIN has released since The Downward Spiral, even if I'm not that big of a fan of With Teeth, and I think Year Zero is a fun but seriously flawed and inconsistent album, though I mostly like The Slip. Still, I don't think you're doing his argument justice in this rebuttal. You almost seem to be ignoring what he's saying in favor of just mocking him. I might not agree with his opinion, but I think it's a far cry from an implication that "Srkillex is teh awesome"
    Last edited by Jinsai; 05-13-2012 at 05:47 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    wow, I never knew that The Beatles were such a big influence on Lonnie Donegan, Robert Johnson, Pierre Schaffer... incredible to think they went back in time and invented transatlantic and delta blues as well as skiffle bands

    Sorry for the sarcasm! but they did take a few cues



    Do you seriously mean that? You do know there are no objectively "correct" opinions and even if there were it's highly questionable that we would even recognise them as such

    Can you give me some examples of opinions that are "correct" to the point of transcending subjectivity? I mean this is silly, it's like saying coca cola is nice, and if you don't like it you are wrong or lying
    As I said, it's not a matter of opinion. You are entitled not to "like" the Beatles as you're entitled to not "like" complex architecture, computer programming or Neil deGrasse (astrophysicist). You can't deny, though, that the songwriting the Beatles developed was groundbreaking and further developed the science of modern music orchestration, as did the great classic composers in their genres. It's their sonic architecture that introduced new concepts in how and what a music band could be, and that's all about their music. Not so much about their "time" in history, although it does play a role. I don't listen to them that much or consider them my "favorite" band. If anything, they're underrated and misunderstood, perhaps mostly by their biggest fans.
    Last edited by hobochic; 05-13-2012 at 05:49 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmd 5a View Post
    New Order > Joy Division

    Republic is fucking amazing, on that note
    I might get Republic one day, but today is not that day. "Regret" is great. Then I'm stuck. Help please? Just about any other NO album I can name at least two tracks that are great, but not Republic. (TBH I haven't got 'Technique' yet either.)

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    I might get Republic one day, but today is not that day. "Regret" is great. Then I'm stuck. Help please? Just about any other NO album I can name at least two tracks that are great, but not Republic. (TBH I haven't got 'Technique' yet either.)
    World, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Liar, Chemical, Special, and the beautiful Avalanche with Gillian Gilbert on vocals.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMkir4RRILM

    It was always special
    It was like water down the drain
    I'm intoxicated
    Every time I hear your name
    I try to remember
    But nothing is the same
    It was always special
    it was like water down the drain

    Patiently you wait for me
    You're so blind
    I thought it couldn't be
    Then changed my mind
    Drowning in the endless sea
    Line all those lines
    The traces of your memory
    Don't belong with mine

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    I might get Republic one day, but today is not that day. "Regret" is great. Then I'm stuck. Help please? Just about any other NO album I can name at least two tracks that are great, but not Republic. (TBH I haven't got 'Technique' yet either.)
    Well, I have no real dog in this fight, but Technique is fucking cool. Movement and (sacrilege I know) Get Ready are my favorite albums from NO if we're discounting singles collections.

  6. #66
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    guitar music is shit

  7. #67
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    Congratulations, Sutekh, you made the most successful thread on ETS.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    World, Ruined In A Day, Everyone Everywhere, Liar, Chemical, Special, and the beautiful Avalanche with Gillian Gilbert on vocals.
    Just to be clear, do you mean those songs from the YT vid you supplied (queued): because if you meant the album tracks (obv. excepting Avalanche) maybe we'll have to agree to disagree or maybe it will click one day… it just hasn't yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by hobochic View Post
    in order for Eddie Vedder to show up at a random Best Western in Arizona, a little tipsy and hanging with the local drunks, and performing the best version of "Where the streets have no name" ever, in karaoke
    Not a patch on the Pet Shop Boys cover :P

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    Just to be clear, do you mean those songs from the YT vid you supplied (queued): because if you meant the album tracks (obv. excepting Avalanche) maybe we'll have to agree to disagree or maybe it will click one day… it just hasn't yet.
    I was saying which album tracks I think stand out from Republic that I listen to on a consistent basis.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Well, I have no real dog in this fight, but Technique is fucking cool. Movement and (sacrilege I know) Get Ready are my favorite albums from NO if we're discounting singles collections.
    Get Ready is underrated but I think Warner fucked it. There was a "get ready premix" on the power of independent trucking which was far superior. At least Crystal and Slowjam made it through unscarred.

    Edit: http://thepowerofindependenttrucking...-mastered.html
    Last edited by jmtd; 05-13-2012 at 06:00 AM. Reason: +url

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    Not a patch on the Pet Shop Boys cover :P
    Did I miss anything? Did he cover a Pet Shop Boys song? **Hopes he covered It's a Sin***



    Ah... I think I got what you mean. That the PSB covered WTSHNN. Bummer, I could almost hear Eddie's voice doing It's a Sin.
    Last edited by hobochic; 05-13-2012 at 06:07 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadpanda View Post
    guitar music is shit
    Well, great. I'm really glad you're here to offer that bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    At least Crystal and Slowjam made it through unscarred.
    Slow Jam almost ties with Ceremony as my personal favorite New Order song.
    Last edited by Jinsai; 05-13-2012 at 06:06 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    I might get Republic one day, but today is not that day. "Regret" is great. Then I'm stuck. Help please? Just about any other NO album I can name at least two tracks that are great, but not Republic. (TBH I haven't got 'Technique' yet either.)
    What Ryan said, plus "Spooky" and especially "Young Offender" (one of my overall favourite NO trax). Actually, I can't think of a track I don't like on Republic.

    Movement -> Power, Corruption and Lies -> Low-Life -> Brotherhood -> Technique -> Republic is such a great streak of albums.
    Last edited by xmd 5a; 05-13-2012 at 06:19 AM. Reason: Forgot Movement

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmd 5a View Post
    What Ryan said, plus "Spooky" and especially "Young Offender" (one of my overall favourite NO trax). Actually, I can't think of a track I don't like on Republic.

    Power, Corruption and Lies -> Low-Life -> Brotherhood -> Technique -> Republic is such a great streak of albums.
    what about Movement? I can't be alone here can I?

  15. #75
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    Nope, forgot to add it. Get Ready could go on there too, depending on my mood. "Crystal" is my absolute favourite NO song but the others are kind of mood-dependent for me.

    Thread officially hijacked haha.

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    Opeth: a good band about ten years ago, now they are bloated and boring. How becoming a tribute act to 70 prog rock's most cliched elements is cause for praise, is a mystery to me. Live, they put you to sleep.

    Isis: the music's OK, the vocals totally kill it. I think with a proper singer they could have been massive. But Aaron Turner's dumb, dumb shouting and weak singing are an instant turn-off for me. I love death metal, but death metal-type vocals on mellower rock music totally do not work.

    Black Sabbath: yep, Ozzy sucks, and has always been a clown. How first Sabbath, and then Sharon Osborne, have made a man who can't carry a tune into a global superstar is just crazy to me. Sabbath's music isn't bad, and then you have Ozzy coming in and totally ruining it. Robert Plant is a kick-ass singer. Ozzy is a joke.

    Van Halen: yes, they have always sucked. VH 1 is one of the worst albums of all time. Running With The Devil a truly horrible, pathetic version of what a rock song should be. I don't care how good of a guitar player Eddie Van Halen is supposed to be: his songs suck.

    Radiohead: I think they were good until OK Computer, which is their masterpiece. They started out as this timid, British answer to Nirvana, and then grew into being a great band with The Bends and OK Computer: but after OK Computer they totally lost their nerve. It's like they realized they would never top that album, and retreated into this land of indie/electronica-lite background music which pretends to be so experimental and different. Since OK Computer not a song, not a moment stands out to me. They lost their sense of humour, their musical daring, and thematically it's this one-note "outrage," at easy targets: commercialism, capitalism, corporations. RH think they're saving the world, they take themselves so fucking seriously: Skinny Puppy are angry too, but at least they have not lost their sense of humour. RH is a great and sad parable about what happens when success goes to artists' heads: they believe their own hype, lose all sense of themselves, live in their own bubble fed by the masses' praise, and think their shit is golden. I don't think anyone will be listening to post-OK Computer material in 20 years time.

    The Beatles: John>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul. John writes the witty, political, funny, catchy songs. Paul writes the schmaltzy, sentimental love songs. I agree some of them are awesome, but I also think it's the dynamic between the two styles that made The Beatles so great. Let's also not forget George, and Ringo's comedic contributions are priceless too. For the person saying don't feel guilty about not having an emotional connection with The Beatles, I love gradually discovering their albums one by one. Sergent Peppers, which my mother exposed me to as a child, is still one of my favourite albums of all time. Wannabes like Ben Gibbard or Stephen Malkmus have nothing on The Beatles. Nothing.

    Trent Reznor: I don't think he's made a great album since TDS. Songs yes, but not an album. Another case of ego disappearing through the roof, and then the clouds. The Fragile was ego overload, and With Teeth was a crushingly disappointing comeback, and it's been so patchy since then. The soundtrack work is not that good at all, quite amateurish actually especially Dragon Tattoo. He certainly knows how to create some nifty sounds, but it's kind of sad Trent has basically become this "cool" sound designer for goth-y Hollywood movies, if you think about it. I totally agree that losing Clouser was a big mistake.

    Jack White: love some of his singles, but find his albums filled with generic bluesy filler. Also, The Dead Weather was fucking terrible: their show I saw was one of the worst rock shows I've ever seen. I can only guess that Jack fancies Alison Mosshart: she's talentless, cannot sing, there's no other reason for her to be there besides looking good, or making White look good.

    Tom Petty: has he ever not been complete crap?

    Neil Young: hate every single note I've heard from this guy. I have no clue what people are digging here.

    The Grateful Dead: totally do not get it.

    Phil Collins is awesome! His first couple of solo albums are as good as 80s pop-rock gets.
    Last edited by aggroculture; 05-13-2012 at 06:24 AM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggroculture View Post
    Tom Petty: has he ever not been complete crap?
    Yes.... most of the time. There's some Petty stuff I personally hate, but I actually think he gets unfairly passed over for being a great songwriter and a really authentic badass.

    Neil Young: hate every single note I've heard from this guy. I have no clue what people are digging here.
    Just to ask, but have you listened to After the Goldrush (album) or any of the live albums (especially Live: Rust)?

    The Grateful Dead: totally do not get it.
    Do you like any "jam bands?"

    Phil Collins is awesome! His first couple of solo albums are as good as 80s pop-rock gets.
    Except that he's directly responsible for the worst kind of 80s production pop that snowballed into almost its own genre of self parody. Everything about his sound is shit.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    I think Year Zero is a fun but seriously flawed and inconsistent album
    I actually consider YZ to be one of Trent's most consistent works. You know what's really inconsistent? The Fragile. I love most of its tracks, but it never gels as an album for me.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCalx View Post
    I'm still a pretty big Morrissey fan, I've heard the vast majority of what he's published and, honestly, if you find the music uninteresting, you're totally correct. It's bland, pedestrian rock music as played by a band of middle-aged men who would be gigging at pubs and bar mitzvahs if not for their friendship with Moz, and it's a whole lot of Morrissey's love-it-or-hate-it personality. You're still trying, though, so you must be seeing some value in his music. I'll take a different tact in trying to convert you. People like Morrissey because, as a songwriter, he has a gift for writing lyrics that are broadly, deeply relatable while being vague enough to be open to vastly different interpretations. His songs are very rarely autobiographical, they're about wheelchair-bound geniuses, faded boxers, glamourous gangsters, British nationalists, guilt-ridden priests, and other compelling characters. He writes with an almost supernatural level of empathy, an empathy which is all the more interesting when seen in light of the man's surly, narcissistic personality. Morrissey is not dissimilar to the Jack Nicholson character in As Good As It Gets - a nasty, bitter little man who can only see all the beauty in the world through his art. If that paradox fascinates you, you'll get a lot of mileage out of Morrissey. If all you can see is the boring music and the vain prick singer, look elsewhere. The world's full of good music and Morrissey's got enough fans.
    I think that's very well put. What I would add is Morrissey's knack for nailing great, great pop melodies and marrying them to lyrics you'd never think would work as pop hooks: writing a song around the phrase "the world is full of crashing bores" and making it work is an example of what makes Morrissey a genius. You hear some of his songs and go "how the fuck did he do that?" I think when it comes to pop he's a professional and talented in ways that most frontmen/lyricists do not come close. He's really good at encapsulating a certain feeling or mood or idea with a lyric and a melody, and making you feel at that same time that you've never heard it before and you knew it all along. That's why I think Morrissey is among what the best pop has to offer. I also think he's gotten better and better with age: I don't have much love for The Smiths, but I love Morrissey's solo material, in particular his 00s albums.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizfan View Post
    I actually consider YZ to be one of Trent's most consistent works. You know what's really inconsistent? The Fragile. I love most of its tracks, but it never gels as an album for me.
    While I definitely like The Fragile more than Year Zero, I agree that it's unfocused in parts. Still, as a production piece, it's so awesome. Songwriting and concept wise, it doesn't work for me as a whole, despite a handful of truly great tracks. Somewhat Damaged, Into the Void, The Great Below, Into the Void, The Big Come Down, Into the Void, The Day the World Went Away, Into the Void, and Into the Void are good songs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Somewhat Damaged, Into the Void, The Great Below, Into the Void, The Day the World Went Away, Into the Void, and Into the Void are good songs.
    You forgot to mention Into the Void.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizfan View Post
    You forgot to mention Into the Void.
    Oh yeah. That one is pretty good. Also, Into the Void isn't bad either.

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    The Fragile (track) was 'meh' to me until ~2008 or 2009 where the guitar solo live really worked for me.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCalx View Post
    Love this thread.

    I think it's interesting, hobochic, that you're still seeking conversion after having seen most of what Morrissey has to offer and still not feeling it. I'm still a pretty big Morrissey fan, I've heard the vast majority of what he's published and, honestly, if you find the music uninteresting, you're totally correct. It's bland, pedestrian rock music as played by a band of middle-aged men who would be gigging at pubs and bar mitzvahs if not for their friendship with Moz, and it's a whole lot of Morrissey's love-it-or-hate-it personality. You're still trying, though, so you must be seeing some value in his music. I'll take a different tact in trying to convert you. People like Morrissey because, as a songwriter, he has a gift for writing lyrics that are broadly, deeply relatable while being vague enough to be open to vastly different interpretations. His songs are very rarely autobiographical, they're about wheelchair-bound geniuses, faded boxers, glamourous gangsters, British nationalists, guilt-ridden priests, and other compelling characters. He writes with an almost supernatural level of empathy, an empathy which is all the more interesting when seen in light of the man's surly, narcissistic personality. Morrissey is not dissimilar to the Jack Nicholson character in As Good As It Gets - a nasty, bitter little man who can only see all the beauty in the world through his art. If that paradox fascinates you, you'll get a lot of mileage out of Morrissey. If all you can see is the boring music and the vain prick singer, look elsewhere. The world's full of good music and Morrissey's got enough fans.
    Thanks for that post. Yeah, I have a fascination for stuff that provokes me. I guess I have a tendency to get attracted to people I don't fully "get" as well. I liked your description of why you love Morrissey more than Morrissey and find this bit especially interesting:

    "His songs are very rarely autobiographical, they're about wheelchair-bound geniuses, faded boxers, glamourous gangsters, British nationalists, guilt-ridden priests, and other compelling characters. He writes with an almost supernatural level of empathy, an empathy which is all the more interesting when seen in light of the man's surly, narcissistic personality."

    That's the kind of stuff that gets me interested. Can you tell me what songs are about "the wheelchair-bound genius", the "faded boxer", the "glamourous gangster" and the "guilt-ridden priest"?

    I hope I like those.
    Last edited by hobochic; 05-13-2012 at 06:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    I never said it was. I could say something like "Keep up 007?" but then I'd feel like a douchebag.
    "
    You are a douchebag... I have tried very hard to be Patient and civil but you are determined to be an arsehole about this...for people like you your crime is also your punishment! Why the hell do you keep repeating yourself regarding the influence of the beatles... Because you arent listening and just want to "win" the conversation

    have it mate, its yours!

    There is plenty of jazz, modern classical and ambient music that isnt influenced by the beatles. Please explain the causal link between jungle and the beatles
    Last edited by Sutekh; 05-13-2012 at 08:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hobochic View Post
    As I said, it's not a matter of opinion. You are entitled not to "like" the Beatles as you're entitled to not "like" complex architecture, computer programming or Neil deGrasse (astrophysicist). You can't deny, though, that the songwriting the Beatles developed was groundbreaking and further developed the science of modern music orchestration, as did the great classic composers in their genres. It's their sonic architecture that introduced new concepts in how and what a music band could be, and that's all about their music. Not so much about their "time" in history, although it does play a role. I don't listen to them that much or consider them my "favorite" band. If anything, they're underrated and misunderstood, perhaps mostly by their biggest fans.
    part of the "problem" w/ the beatles is their status, probably like most folks who post here, i first heard these albums long after the beatles rep as "the greatest ever" was firmly cemented. and at the time i was deep into far more aggressive industrial / electronic music, and the beatles never really grabbed me. never really understood the swooning fans, or the relentless praise.

    even when the beatles were finally added to itunes there was a decent amount of hype surrounding that, with a web & tv campaign.

    in hindsight not even the beatles can live up to the hype of the beatles, but they did come up with some great albums / songs, that i now appreciate far more than before.

    ----

    agreed on some of the other bands mentioned here:

    apc never got the appeal, saw them open for nin back w/ fragility 2.0 tour, bought the first few records, can't say that anything was terribly memorable, though i love puscifer & tool.

    with_teeth was actually a pretty decent record, hated it when it first came out, was disappointed with the sound of it, hated the lack of liner notes, thought the pdf poster things reeked of ego and trying to be far too clever. in hindsight though it contained some great tracks, and has held up well.

    the fragile was always a bloated mess, i suppose anyone would have struggled to followup the downward spiral, so i can forgive that, but it's still one of my least favorite of the nin albums.

    radiohead - like the rest of the world, i loved creep, though i'm still wondering what happened to that band and why everything else they release to great hype and acclaim feels so empty and lifeless.

    ----

    the smashing pumpkins - seriously fuck those guys. why they were ever popular can only be blamed on nirvana's lengthy coat tails. why they haven't just died under a rock somewhere is anyone's guess.

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    Wow. After reading this thread back to back with bad movies thread, I wonder if there was one goddamned thing in music and cinema that aggroculture enjoyed in last 20 years.
    Last edited by fillow; 05-13-2012 at 04:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koz-ivan View Post
    the smashing pumpkins - seriously fuck those guys. why they were ever popular can only be blamed on nirvana's lengthy coat tails. why they haven't just died under a rock somewhere is anyone's guess.
    Current time Smashing Pumpkins aren't that great at all but I fail to see how any correlation with Nirvana helped the band create Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness or their sound as a whole. I think people give too much credit to bands that have nothing to do with other acts around their time frame's success.

    I also guess it's controversial to utter or denounce anything related to the Beatles.

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    More:

    Steve Albini: I really really dislike his productions and do not get why people rate this guy. He really goes overboard with the whole lo-fi thing: those Jesus Lizard records are unlistenable. I like his own music even less. I remember when as a teenager, after hearing so many people rave about it, I finally bought Songs About Fucking: talk about huge disappointment. I keep giving Albini a chance, and he keeps underwhelming me.

    Foo Fighters: I dug the first album and it also got the sympathy vote: I remember the emotion I felt on hearing This Is A Call for the first time, and its links to the Nirvana sound. Ever since then I've hated every FF song I've heard: it's bland, boring, vacuous feel-good stadium rock. And I hate that journalists repeatedly bang on about Grohl being such a nice guy: I've interviewed him twice, he's not that nice. And hiding behind him on With Teeth has been one of TR's weaker moves.

    Fall Out Boy: some of their songs are great: Patrick Stump has a nice soulful voice and Wentz can pen some good lyrics; at their best they transcend the emo-pop-punk scene which spawned them and just make great pop. I hope they get back together.

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    Glad you guys liked what I said, hobochic and aggroculture. Yes, Morrissey's way with vocal melodies is strong indeed, "Angel, Angel, Down We Go Together" from Viva Hate and "What She Said" from the Smiths are two of my all-time favourite songs to sing.

    The wheelchair-bound genius is "November Spawned a Monster". The original studio version of this song has aged badly, but it's a live staple for Morrissey and is quite well-executed on the Live at Earls Court album. The key line "Jesus made me, so Jesus, save me from pity, sympathy, and people discussing me" is one of my all-time favourite lyrics in any pop song ever.



    The faded boxer is "Boxers". Seeing what you've said so far, hobochic, I don't know if you'll be all that hot on this one, as the tune is a bit jangly and meandering, but it is a great character sketch and it's quite reminiscent of the movie The Wrestler.



    Glamourous gangsters are all over Morrissey's music - he's got a bit of a fascination with the romance of crime. My two favourites, though, are "The Last of the Famous International Playboys", written as a love letter from a half-mad fanboy to the infamous Kray twins (definitely worth a wikipedia search if you're not familiar with their story) and "The Boy Racer", a straight-up rocker that proves Morrissey's sleepy band can get the lead out when they want.





    The guilt-ridden priest is "Dear God, Please Help Me". Reviewers laughed at the comic couplet "There are explosive kegs/ between my legs", but my favourite part comes early in the song, where Morrissey sighs "I'm so very tired of doing the right thing". God knows I've been there. Haven't we all?

    Last edited by BlueCalx; 05-13-2012 at 10:27 AM.

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