without a resident devils advocate (or troll or neo-con or whatever) this forum would surely be dull...
If he were being genuine, sure. But I'm starting to really doubt that he is. No one can be this clueless. Honestly.
I could say the same about any of you, I think most of you are clueless.
Last edited by theruiner; 03-30-2012 at 10:16 PM.
I don't know much about this case either, but I'll say that black supremacists are just as bad as white supremacists. And that 'hate-crimes' should be abolished. If someone kills another human, the reasoning behind it shouldn't matter.
I've read a few stories on that now, and I have to say, I don't see anything in here indicating that race was a motivating factor in the murder. Maybe I just missed it somewhere, but I'm not seeing it. Once again, this appears to be a false equivalency.Originally Posted by 50 Volt Phantom
And by the way, even if it was racially motivated, it's not really indicative of a bigger problem. I don't think there's a huge problem with racism against white people in this country. Call me crazy.
I'm sorry to derail this topic, and I know I said I wouldn't engage with this guy, but I get a little sick of seeing lots of questionable information and, on more than one occasion, a false equivalency that just seems to slip through the cracks of the conversation, and I think there should be some accountability for that.
I don't think anyone's saying that's ok. I don't think anyone's said that's not a problem.Besides, I'm commenting on the extreme comments of these black figures, like the bounty, the call for race riots, etc. not that they are black figures. So far no one seems to have a problem with them by the lack of comments. Shocking of course.
Last edited by theruiner; 03-31-2012 at 03:23 AM.
My Dad inadvertently protested by meeting me on his NYC street corner wearing a hoodie. I thought I was pulling up to a criminal and it turned out to be my Dad.
First of all when we refer to Zimmerman we are not using the word "white" to describe his ethnicity (because it isn't one). We are using the term "white" as synonymous with white privilege and authority (because that's what it is). He is Hispanic, but he is also "white" within this sociological context and within this case. Whiteness was only created to separate those who should have power from those who don't. It has nothing to do with skin color or ethnicity, at least not in the concrete sense. For example, the Irish and Italian were all considered not "white" at a time because they did not have the privilege in this country that "whiteness" is equated to and founded in. While "white" exists there can be no equality because its very existence implies privilege and domination by that group. This is the understanding of race that informed people are going by.
Obama bringing about post-racial America? What idiots are you referring to?
Okay, the reason this is getting so much media attention isn't because of the crime, its because there was no justice in the aftermath! Zimmerman was not arrested and is no closer to a trial that when this all started. THAT is the problem. That is the is true sign of the extent of racism on a systematic level in this country and how it prevails. Why would Obama comment on a case that was handled normally and in which justice was sought in a straightforward fashion?
Yes horrible acts against white people exist and in many cases their whiteness is what made them the target of the horrible act. However, these isolated incidences and the ideas that cause them are not defended and reinforced by the media, the government, actual law, and society as a whole on a systematic level. The outrage over Martin's death is one about systematic oppression, not over a single act.
Last edited by littlemonkey613; 04-01-2012 at 04:31 PM.
Wow, what a crock of total shit that post was, seriously, that whole first paragraph is absolute shit. I'd hardly call that "informed" or anywhere even remotely close to it.
Wait, so when I say that I'm indifferent towards gay marriage and you claim that I must somehow support lynchings then because both are derived from oppression, how does that not apply here? It's only kind of bad that a Lt. Governor in Wisconsin has sexist remarks made against her, whereas what Rush did is just on a whole other level because it involved more people? I think you need to be more consistent. Sexism is sexism, you seem to let one slide more than the other.I can't even believe I'm engaging you on this, but ok. I tracked down the audio you're talking about. It is pretty obscure- I found it through Breitbart's website, which linked me to a blog, which linked me to another website, which linked me to the audio. I can't find anything else about this story. Cue "the liberal media is just a giant conspiracy to keep conservatives down" rant, I know. I can tell you that there's not a lot of outrage about this because not a lot of people know about it. I agree that the comments are awful. Absolutely awful. But it STILL isn't the same as what happened with Rush Limbaugh. Insulting ONE PERSON, even though it was uncalled for and totally shitty, is NOT THE SAME as insulting millions of American women, Phantom. Or using your power as a broadcaster with millions of listeners to bully a private citizen and degrade her on a national radio show. It's the powerful bullying the powerless. Jesus, you really can't see the differences there?
As for Sharpton and race riots and what not, I just haven't seen any outcry that it's awful, and yet it's completely acceptable to rail on the NRA and Jeb Bush when they have basically nothing to do with the case. Liberal hypocrisy strikes again.
There can be no equality when you define privilege as being "white" not the other way around, it is you that have chosen to use race as a means of defining standing, therefore you have created racial division. Sociology is fine, but not when it's mixed in with the kind of crap you're talking about.
I only have one thing to add that really disturbs me about all of this (lots of disturbing things happened, but that's not where I'm going)-
We're all second guessing based off what the media gives us (BTW, I strongly dislike trial by media- it has very little interest in truth or justice- just headlines and ratings, the whole "if it bleeds it leads thing")- the whole country is going off the picture the media is painting- it may or may not be fair and accurate.
What bothers me is this- I only see this ending one of two ways- 1) The guy ends up in jail (and if he deserves to be there- GREAT!). 2) The guy either gets off or is never prosecuted- in both of these scenarios I think we'll see rioting, and this publicity will destroy his life for years (assuming he's not murdered).
We have a man who may or may not have killed someone without reason- the media has declared him guilty (remember none of us have full information- or even as much as the police/FBI have). If he's found not to have committed a crime (just a horrible misunderstanding that may haunt him forever), there's no good ending. He'll be hounded for years and we'll have who knows how much property destroyed in riots.
Does that make sense?
I'm all for justice. I'm just not sure what that means yet.
P.S. I've heard that "coon" tape- John Stewart concluded it sounded like Dick Cheney's new heart trying to swim out of his chest. I didn't know I was looking for the word Coon- but I couldn't make any sense out of those sounds.
He's already guilty in the minds of most of the people here I'm sure, but I agree with your take on it, we don't have the full picture.
There needs to be a trial. It's that simple.
Letting Zimmerman go scott free because he said it was self-defense, or because there's a law in Florida that says you can kill someone and say it was self-defense, is not justice.
Bring him to trial, and let a jury decide whether they believe Zimmerman's story or not.
Wow. You really don't get it, do you? I've explained this twice. If you can't see the difference between one person being insulted and millions of people, and the difference between one person with power insulting another person with power and one person with power attempting to completely destroy the reputation of someone who is powerless, then I guess you're just never going to get it. Jesus Christ, this is why you're being called a troll, dude. It really seems like willful ignorance most of the time with you.Wait, so when I say that I'm indifferent towards gay marriage and you claim that I must somehow support lynchings then because both are derived from oppression, how does that not apply here? It's only kind of bad that a Lt. Governor in Wisconsin has sexist remarks made against her, whereas what Rush did is just on a whole other level because it involved more people? I think you need to be more consistent. Sexism is sexism, you seem to let one slide more than the other.
But most investigations don't go to trial. The prosecutors have to decide if there's enough evidence to prosecute. (Right or wrong) the first time through they decided they didn't have enough evidence (that doesn't necessarily make him innocent- it just means they didn't feel they had strong enough evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime had been committed- the stand your ground law probably figures into that- I bet it eventually gets repealed because of this).
Then, if they decide they have the evidence to prosecute they will attempt to plea bargain this out by offering a lesser sentence/jail time then the prosecutors will seek if they go to court. This is done to save time, money and prevent our courts from being overwhelmed with to many cases.
I seem to recall something like 3/4 of all cases never actually make it to court.
The really sad thing is there's good chance innocent people have taken plea bargains because the risk/time/money involved in completely clearing themselves was to great.
Last edited by harrismonkey; 04-01-2012 at 05:40 PM.
White is not skin color! It is a socially constructed pan ethnic group in which its members share ONE thing in common. Their dun dun dun! PRIVILEGE over minorities.
In the same way brown people and black people of different cultures and backgrounds have NOTHING in common except dun dun dun their oppression at the hands of the white majority.
But your're right, its not fair that white people cannot come together and celebrate the thing they share in common, especially when its something so wonderful.
The only thing that even makes them a group is the fact that they have power. You can go and celebrate that all you want. Groups that weren't considered white in the past joined your awesome club when society granted them the privileges of the majority. But you're right, its not inherently racist to celebrate this.
Acknowledging reality does not create that reality.
Last edited by littlemonkey613; 04-01-2012 at 06:05 PM.
We already know Zimmerman is guilty because he's admitting to killing Martin. We already know it was racial because he says 'fucking coons' on the taped recording. Just because Jon Stewart doesn't hear it doesn't mean I can't. I've listened to it quite a few times and that's what he says. The reason there isn't enough evidence in this case is because one of the witnesses is dead and because the police didn't do their jobs correctly. That's injustice.
Last edited by sweeterthan; 04-01-2012 at 07:42 PM.
a ton of evidence to gather.
I'm a Certificated Paralegal, but here's a simple explanation from an attorney: http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/201...rand-jury.html
Last edited by allegro; 04-01-2012 at 10:42 PM.
I believe what little we know provides transparency.
Contradictions to Zimmerman's statements can be found in the surveillance footage.
This happened in Florida.
Zimmerman was quoted using a racial epitaph.
This happened in Florida.
Zimmerman was fired from his previous job due to anger issues.
This happened in Florida.
I infer George Zimmerman is a liar, has a temper, uses racial slurs, and worse yet - he's a POLICE OFFICER in the state of FLORIDA. Which may be the most important fact. Wait, I'm getting ahead of myself. What kind of hoodie did you say it was?
I have to say, reading that article, I really don't buy Zimmerman's account even more. I mean, I was highly suspicious before, but I guess I had never heard his account of what actually happened (the part about Travyon walking up and just punching him). I don't buy that at all. Trayvon calls his girlfriend and says someone's following him and then says, "I'm going to walk fast" to get away from him. Then, a few minutes later, he pops out of the shadows after Zimmerman is no longer a threat and just starts a fight with him? Bullshit. Two minutes ago, he's (understandably) nervous and wants to get out of there. Then he does a complete 180 and now wants to kick this guy's ass? I'm not buying it.
Add to that the fact that Zimmerman's account of his head being bashed into the concrete is, at least according to one witness, complete bullshit because they were fighting on the grass. Add to that the surveillance footage showing no signs of injury. Add to that, obviously, the psychotic way Zimmerman was acting earlier that night. I know I'm just rehashing what everyone else has said, but Jesus Christ.
So Zimmerman had a right to stand his ground from Martin? OK, I want you to think slowly and carefully about this. Do you also then acknowledge Martin had a right to stand his ground from Zimmerman? Or is Martin already guilty because of his other crimes which you have so graciously enlightened us on? Do you see how the ambiguity in the law can make for a more dangerous society when anyone can claim self defense for anything, especially in a society where we are encouraged to walk around carrying concealed handguns?Originally Posted by 50 Volt PhantomWhat about calling him a coon?Originally Posted by 50 Volt PhantomAre you capable of acknowledging that both clothing AND RACE appear to play a part in this? That it was not simply one or the other?Originally Posted by 50 Volt PhantomAttacking a dead kid to avoid admitting to political critiques is a straight up piece of shit move.Originally Posted by 50 Volt PhantomThis is the same defensive tactic as attacking Obama/Occupy for “creating” class resentment. The fault doesn’t lie with the person pointing out the problem. In fact, the whole strategy of the modern GOP is to create resentment, and your bullshit typifies what makes it sadly successful on the internet. It is the perfect medium to spread lies and disinformation because there are no consequences to it. You don’t have to answer to the person you’re slandering. If you’re pointed out as being wrong, you can simply choose to ignore it and wait it out until the subject changes, or move on to some other hole on the web.Originally Posted by 50 Volt Phantom
This doesn't for a second indicate that Zimmerman isn't guilty (I have no strong opinion). But it is a wonderful example of just how flawed some of the information people are pulling from is. Especially #2.
And it just gets deeper.
Forensic experts say it is Martin on the 911 tapes, not Zimmerman, who was screaming for help.
Another tidbit from the article:
EMS documents obtained by the Daily News suggested the 28-year-old insurance agent didn't sustain any injuries either in the alleged dust-up.