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Faceplams: She looks amazing. I'm telling you, facial feminization surgery is magic.
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She looks amazing. I'm telling you, facial feminization surgery is magic.
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^^^^ seriously, magic.
I'm a bit disappointed by some of my FB friends who think they are open minded, but really their comments are pretty insensitive.
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Yeah, I've been a little nervous about peoples' reactions but so far so good.
She was brought up at work today but I quickly tried to change the subject. I really hope it doesn't come up tomorrow. I am going to excuse myself from the conversation if it does. Even if someone asks me directly, I won't talk about it with anyone.
Hierba Gatera
My only negative reaction is about the magazine itself. I hate Vanity Fair for a variety of reasons. But those photos are amazing.
Bite me
I agree, I wish she (or her PR rep) would have chosen a magazine other than VF, but Annie's photos are great. And VF is a way better choice than People, natch, heh.Originally Posted by Miss Baphomette
Last edited by allegro; 06-02-2015 at 08:48 AM.
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handing Caitlyn the Arthur Ashe Courage Award is kinda bullshit though. It's not too surprising in a world that hands awards out as a tool instead of the true meaning of the award (see: obama's nobel peace prize) but cmon... How about Renee Richards? Sylvia Rivera? Christine Jorgensen? How does a celebrity doing celebrity shit after transitioning display courage compared to them?
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Is your workplace fairly negative toward transgender? I actually haven't heard anything where I work, but we are pretty positive. We actually made someone send out a company wide apology for causally using "tranny" when retelling a story. We even had a group of LGBT kids come by the office for an event and we made sure to ask about preferred pronouns.
Bite me
The award has only existed since 1993, and is mostly a sports-related award. Jenner was, at one time, rated as the greatest athlete in the world, so there's that. If you weren't around during that time, it may be difficult to imagine Bruce on every box of Wheaties and nearly every American glued to their TV sets rooting for him during the Summer Olympics of 1976.
Last week, his daughter Kylie was on TV heli-skiing at Big Sky. The adrenaline thing is totally genetic.
Last edited by allegro; 06-02-2015 at 01:19 PM.
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It's hard to tell. It hasn't really come up very often. The only thing I've really overheard was a few coworkers in another section talking about it and it didn't seem like they were saying anything very positive (though I only heard part of the conversation in passing, so who knows). Thankfully I haven't heard anything else today and no one has asked me about it directly.
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I don't know the rules about posthumous application, but Sylvia died in 2002. Renee is still alive.
After all the initial hype fades and we get another story of the day, this isn't going to be something people think is award-deserving courage... especially compared to all the other's who displayed much more courage.
Renee was also an athlete and actually fought for transgender rights in sports all the way to the NY Supreme Court. And she fucking won! She then continued playing after transition.
She feared for her life while playing and needed bodyguards.
Bite me
Yes, I was actually alive and around when Renee Richards was playing tennis. In the end, awards don't mean anything. Not even the Nobel. And this is just some dumb award. No offense to Arthur Ashe, RIP, but Robin Fucking Roberts has gotten this award. She's a nice lady who has battled cancer and she's the host of Good Morning America. But I doubt that Renee is sitting around going "I deserve that fucking award!" She just wanted to play tennis.
But to be the World's Greatest (male) Athlete who won the DECATHLON and won Gold for the United States and was Mr. Gold Medal to America, but then publicly changes to a female at the age of 65? Sorry, dude, but that takes a LOT of fucking courage.
Last edited by allegro; 06-02-2015 at 01:42 PM.
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lol. Yeah, I highly doubt she is doing that... she always seemed pretty humble. Im just being annoyed about the abuse of awards... it feels like a recent thing connected to the "everyone gets a gold start" culture we have created. It further compounds the self-importance in the current generations when they see everyone around them getting awards while the more impacting historical individuals seem further lost to history. Jenner's involvement in reality TV and Kardashian further contaminate the situation of putting yourself on a magazine.
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Can't believe I forgot to mention Manning, even though she has no relation to sports. Talk about insane courage (regardless of whether you think everything she did was right or wrong).
Bite me
One posthumous award recipient was a coach at the Columbine massacre. Howard Cosell received this award. A bunch of people who were on the downed PA 9/11 plane received this award posthumously.
Jenner has indicated that she believes that what she is doing will "save lives" because it is estimated that the suicide rate among transgender teens is 40%; and if she can come out and have the courage to do this, maybe she can be inspirational to others. She says she receives mail every single day from people indicating that what she is doing has encouraged them, or they ask for help in their process. She says she has been trying to be "very careful" in "how" she does this, so that it's handled in the right manner, in a dignified and classy way, where she has control and nothing is "leaked," and that's why she has a PR person helping her out.
The VF article says that some of the envelopes are addressed simply to "Bruce Jenner, Malibu, CA" and they still arrive.
Last edited by allegro; 06-02-2015 at 01:57 PM.
tempus est umbra in mente
To imply that these people didn't receive due recognition on par with any "award" that you can give out is a disservice to everything but the concept of medals and awards. There's a reason you know their names, and it's not because they were handed a trophy.
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Well shit, I guess Nelson Mandela wasn't very recognized and needed that Arthur Ashe award a few years back to help him out.
Bored
Amen sister! I remember too watching the 76 Summer Olympics (aka the one that happened in my backyard and where we built that joke of a Stadium) and the 2 names that everyone remembers from it are Nadia Comaneci and Bruce (now Caitlyn) Jenner.
So yes, what she does now takes fucking courage indeed. And I admire and love her more for it than I did back in 76.
Bite me
Sometimes I think you don't actually read these posts, dude. Are you in a hurry or something? ("To imply that these people didn't receive due recognition on par with any 'award' that you can give out ..." and "There's a reason you know their names, and it's not because they were handed a trophy.")
Anyway, this ESPN award thing is just trolling in this thread.
Last edited by allegro; 06-02-2015 at 08:14 PM.
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You should read what Jinsai quoted when making the statement. Jinsai's reply was a rebuttal to something that didn't exist. It also has an unstated logical conclusion of either A: Jenner is deserving of the award because Jenner hasn't had enough recognition (which would be bullshit) or B: Giving an award to someone less deserving is ok because it doesn't diminish those who were more deserving... also bullshit.. Yeah.. let's pretend Jenner's Olympic gold medal was given to a different athlete who placed last because "giving the guy who place last an award doesn't diminish the fact that everyone recognizes Jenner's superior performance" ... lolSometimes I think you don't actually read these posts, dude. Are you in a hurry or something? ("To imply that these people didn't receive due recognition on par with any 'award' that you can give out ..." and "There's a reason you know their names, and it's not because they were handed a trophy.")
Last edited by DigitalChaos; 06-02-2015 at 02:56 PM.
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I think the timing was a bit unfortunate for giving Jenner that award today just because folks are making it about it being a publicity stunt and not the fact that Bruce Jenner did have success in a sport and also showed (is showing) courage in her life today. Robin Roberts same thing - she did play ball in college, she did overcome several bouts with cancer. Any of you want to understand that award, watch the doc on Jimmy V who received the first ESPY Courage award. :'(
@DigitalChaos - the crack about Mandela needing the ESPY award to help him was unnecessary. Usually, what you say is really useful around here and often a great counter point for me. This one - nuh huh. Mandela spent so many years locked in a hole - he came out and did a lot of good including, putting a Rugby team together that helped his country come together. That's what ESPN is trying to highlight with this award - not one of these folks wants that award. They are just being recognized.
24.24.2.2866
This has never been a topic that has offended me or harmed my life in any way, I find myself always asking questions and trying to understand and accept these aspects of life.
There has been a lot of conversation lately sparked by Bruce and now Caitlyn Jenner.
Someone in my circles decided to post this wall of text of which i wanted to provide some rebuttal to. I'm wondering whether or not i even have a place to say much about something i don't entirely know everything about myself but i was trying to offer what i could in a civil back and forth with this person. I hoped they would see things a bit differently then they do but i don't think it has worked just yet especially looking at some of their other comments. Obviously everyone has a right to their opinion/beliefs but it doesn't hurt to hope people have the right information and try to offer some answers or thoughts that might help toward acceptance and understanding even though i have no actual experience with a transition or have ever wanted one. I mean i can see where they are coming from and i think they are right to ask these questions but some of their conclusions are so shallow.
The following might have triggers, I am not sure so i won't post it outright... I'll just link to it but i also wanted to post what i said in return and ask anyone here.. am i doing the right thing with my contributions to this conversation? or rather what i mean is i don't want to seem like what i am doing is speaking for anyone or everyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to help explain what my thoughts were on the matter in contrast to what someone else is saying or the kind of questions they are asking.
What they posted: http://i.imgur.com/ciTcw9N.jpg
What i said in response followed by a comment from them and then ending with another comment from me: http://i.imgur.com/d3YZBeV.jpg
Their recurring comment outside of what i have linked is to "own" who you are and don't change it but how exactly they figure that is being done by just accepting you have to live looking and feeling a way in which you never even chose to when you were brought into the world is completely beyond me.
Bite me
Well, his whole "woman" discussion is weird because studies have shown that this primarily appears during early childhood, documented as early as 18 months? And I don't have kids, never will, but I am absolutely still a woman. His argument is a little long on flowery philosophy and short on logic.
Many people tend to want to look to science and genetics vs. nurture and socialization; the childhood trauma origination was often looked to as a source but that has largely been replaced by a new scientific theory of male / female chemical mismatch in the brain?
This has always caused a great deal of cognitive dissonance, for everyone. But the attitude that makes the most sense to me, the only way I can choose to look at it, is "if it doesn't affect me and they are happy, then let it be."
Last edited by allegro; 06-03-2015 at 02:47 PM.
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Oh, lord. That was painful to read.
I appreciate you trying, @thelastdisciple. All of the points this person brought up are easily refutable and not even remotely logical (not to mention pretty hateful). I can elaborate if you want and break down why that person is wrong but I wasn't sure if that's what you're looking for or not. But let me know and I can make another post refuting everything.
I just don't understand why people get so angry about this. If it doesn't affect your life in any way, shape or form then why do you care? But for some reason people just get really mad about transgender people. I don't get it. I'm just trying to be happy like everyone else. Am I not entitled to that? Am I supposed to suffer for the rest of my life and be miserable or even kill myself so I don't disrupt people's comfortable little fantasies about the way they think the world is? It baffles me, it really does.
Then again, I actually have empathy, and I hate seeing people suffer, and as long as people are not hurting anyone else I really don't care what they do as long as they're happy. Crazy thought.
Last edited by theruiner; 06-03-2015 at 09:22 AM.
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It's the whole publicity thing and public reaction paired with the lack of knowledge about the matter.
First of all, there is a very good chance that you reach your twenties, or even more without knowing much about transgenders. Society just reached the point where the whole gay thing is pretty much established, and the acceptance (or, from some, tolerance) of it is becoming bigger and bigger. I imagine parents now have this talk with their children, while 20 years ago it was rather taboo. The topic of transgenders is probably not even in baby shoes in some ciuntries, so many people's initial reaction "what the fuck" or "he's just gay, right?". You can't expect much, when even heterosexuality is somewhat of a taboo topic in schools. Even in high-school sex eds we were taught nothing. Good luck to jumping to understand transgenders.
Then I'm sure there were responses - which could contest the usual crazed feminist reply quality - to some non-hurtful, but confused responses to the whole transformation, and when your confusion is met with some angry person trying to give you a lecture and acting like being transgender is as known as that the grass is green, and if you are not aware of it you are some uneducated pig, then it's easy to hate on the whole topic.
Also, the media did what the media does, and it's just repelling. She's not the first who had such an operation, I'm sure there were others who even suffered more, but you can't sell a random dude transforming into a random dudette. I guess, for transgenders, it's great to have a hero, and worths being whored out by the media. Everyday folks, though, worrying about their jobs, family, healthcare, whatever, might have different priorities.
I for one think, that it's just a beginning of some serious shitstorm going down along the next decades, when arguments will rise whether to call a transgender on their pre-op or post-op gender, what about those who can't afford it, should they get help from the state with the operations, and where should a transgender go to pee, or to play sports, or to.... Oh yeah, it will be nasty. I mean, homosexuality was a pretty straightforward thing, yet it's still in the process of being accepted, but some of the concerns about transgenders are not easy at all, and there are and will be good arguments and counter arguments for those.
Last edited by Volband; 06-03-2015 at 02:25 PM.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
^HOLY SHIT.
Are you being serious?
Bite me
I dunno, he's from Hungary so his responses are sometimes lost in translation, I think. Or some kind of cultural backward thing.
I think this country (the U.S., natch) was in a really hip forward-thinking period for a long time, then the AIDS thing and war on drugs thing happened and threw us into a conservative tailspin and we've been there ever since. From the early-60's until the early-80s, things weren't nearly as uptight as they've been since then, really. Androgynous and/or gay rock stars were adored, or sexuality was just plain old ignored or accepted, and the primary reason Renee Richards was given a lot of shit back then was because it was thought that she had some kind of unfair physical advantage in women's pro tennis. Wendy Carlos' "Switched on Bach" was HUGELY popular back then, and she discussed her transition in Playboy in 1979. (Wendy writes about some of the more cruel treatment she has suffered, here.) Trust me, this isn't like some new novel thing, here. I met my first transsexual in around 1981, who was married to a guy friend of some of my gay friends. I had NO idea until they said a big clue was the size of her hands, which I guess you can't really change much but, honestly, I didn't notice at all. Didn't care. She was GORGEOUS.
But, we are gradually moving forward, again, little by little, and having these role models has gotta help. Of course, oversaturation doesn't help and they have to be careful that this news doesn't backfire into too much, Kardashian style. Americans have the collective attention span of a rat, though, and next week it'll be another topic. Probably Tom Brady's balls. Again.
At one time, these matters were considered "private and personal and nobody's business" and it was gauche to parade it all over, so it's harder for old generations to see this kind of stuff done in this manner but if they understand that it may do some good for some kids, perhaps they'll look at it in another way. Even Caitlin f/k/a Bruce has expressed a deep hatred for social media but is now attempting to use it in some way toward the benefit of teens in trouble. If that is even possible (I'm somewhat dubious as I hate social media that is filled with mean and awful trolls.)
Last edited by allegro; 06-03-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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Diane Rehm did an hour on this topic. A good listen.
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That was my point! It was a sarcastic reply to demonstrate the absurdity of Jinsai's rebuttal.
But if you want provocative counterpoints on this topic:
1 - I don't understand the weird alliance in the progressive sphere between feminists who say gender is nothing but a social construct and the trans community who, clearly, disagree.
2 - I also don't understand people who ridicule those that undergo voluntary sexual reassignment surgery while forcing something like circumcision on babies.
tempus est umbra in mente
Which demonstrates that you still, somehow, do not understand what I was saying. I'm over it.
The Vanity Fair cover is really bringing out some of the more vicious and intolerant bigots out of the woodwork to rant it out. I'm not familiar with some (surely far right conservative) blog site called The Blaze, and I hesitate to link directly to the epic lunacy of their "article" that I read. I don't really want to give them hits, and I think reading it might really upset some people, because it's openly hostile.
Still, it just so supremely sums up the hatred and flailing outrage that is somehow at the core of what is "upsetting" some morons that I think it's worth scanning through (if you have the stomach for it). And since it's already been shared 100,000+ times, I guess it's worth acknowledging that this represents the beliefs of a really disgustingly backwards demographic.
proceed with caution
Last edited by Jinsai; 06-04-2015 at 01:28 PM.
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Transgenderism is an assault on feminism? Oy veh.
Since I clicked and saw Hotels.com as the first banner ad, I think I'm going to cancel my login over there......
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