Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[ltrandazzo]

A lot of big words and abstract language

Drawing a picture of consent and good communication bothers you? It's as simple as that. Aziz let himself fall into the same trap others have - thinking that he could just order someone around and use them as a sex toy because of his stature and reputation as a "woke bae." The sickly children tag you're throwing out there is super extra, by the way.

[r_z]

Aziz let himself fall into the same trap others have - thinking that he could just order someone around and use them as a sex toy because of his stature and reputation as a "woke bae."

What's bothering me is you people getting all up in arms about an incident you have ZERO insight in. And you're seemingly doing this on a basis of strong (irrational) prejudices. Because not for a second did you even consider the possibility of his account being true. You're all acting very hot-headed and hysterical. And the fact, that you can't see why this won't help your arguments or those of #metoo is baffling to me.

[ltrandazzo]

What's bothering me is you people getting all up in arms about an incident you have ZERO insight in. And you're seemingly doing this on a basis of strong (irrational) prejudices. Because not for a second did you even consider the possibility of his account being true. You're all acting very hot-headed and hysterical. And the fact, that you can't see why this won't help your arguments or those of #metoo is baffling to me.

Believe the accusers first. I don't get why that's so hard.

[r_z]

Believe the accusers first. I don't get why that's so hard.

Did you come up with that or where is it from? Because it sure as hell has nothing to do with the way our legal authorities/rules of law operate. edit: and there are reasons why they don't.

[ltrandazzo]

Did you come up with that or where is it from? Because it sure as hell has nothing to do with the way our legal authorities/rules of law operate. edit: and there are reasons why they don't.

I'll, uh, make sure to consult with the ETS court that we update our rules of law so we make sure that accusers aren't believed first then.

[r_z]

I'll, uh, make sure to consult with the ETS court that we update our rules of law so we make sure that accusers aren't believed first then.

Acknowledging thousands of years of legal history would at least update your rules from archaic to democratic, for sure.

[Sarah K]

"COPS OR GTFO" is the weakest shit ever. Our legal system is a shitshow, and is historically and notoriously difficult for the victims of sex crimes. A small, small fraction of rapists ever see a day in prison. Going through all of the emotional turmoil that a legal case entails generally does more harm than good for most victims. Holding up a *legal* standard for a *social* problem that is being addressed is nonsense.

[r_z]

"COPS OR GTFO" is the weakest shit ever. Our legal system is a shitshow, and is historically and notoriously difficult for the victims of sex crimes. A small, small fraction of rapists ever see a day in prison. Going through all of the emotional turmoil that a legal case entails generally does more harm than good for most victims. Holding up a *legal* standard for a *social* problem that is being addressed is nonsense.

This is a dangerous sentiment. Said standard is there for a reason and it's tried and tested.

And you know what? Our legal system is historically and notoriously difficult for victims of other crimes as well. For when it's hard to support a claim with evidence that is. Which unfortunately is the case with many sex crimes, too. I pointed out earlier on this board how I think this is a dilemma and unfortunate for people that really are victims of sex crimes. I got your cute little facepalms for that one, as well.

But what is the alternative? To put away people simply on the basis of accusations that don't need to be followed up by evidence? To take matters in your own hands and publicly shame everybody that's being accused of something? And where would that lead us? You can't be serious.

[Sarah K]

Again you are confusing legal standards with social standards. Two completely different things.

[r_z]

No, I'm not confusing them. I'm applying a judical standard that's insanely important in judging people to the public domain. What's a law worth when there's no one embodying it? You, on the other hand, are confusing vigilantism and public shaming with justice.

[Sarah K]

Judicial standards cannot be applied to social problems.

There are many social punishments for poor behavior that exist outside of the legal system.

[sweeterthan]

If men don’t want to be shamed publicly by stories of their horrid actions, the easy answer is to not be asshole. Problem solved.


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[r_z]

You know it's not that easy, so please stop it with your populist one liners.

[r_z]

Judicial standards cannot be applied to social problems.

Why not?

There are many social punishments for poor behavior that exist outside of the legal system.

Such as...?

[playwithfire]

letting yourself to be raped

I think a point you're missing is that the above is literally impossible. You cannot "let yourself be raped" -- the action of rape is purely in the hands of the rapist. Just like I cannot "let myself be beaten." While yes, she could have behaved differently, it literally doesn't matter given that he still ignored her disinterest and no's.

[playwithfire]

Why not?


Such as...?

Requiring all sexual experiences to be prosecutable to like, have empathy for someone, is an enormously cruel way to behave.

Y'all should read this. https://medium.com/@dr_eprice/a-few-...s-7db015c1cde5

[Swykk]

Why not?


Such as...?

You’re kidding, right?

Okay, I’ll give an example.

Louis CK lost an estimated 50 million after his issues were revealed. No FX deal, no Netflix deal anymore. No charges were filed. These were social consequences.

[playwithfire]

Or like, hey, women have heard that this guy jerks off in front of people who he works with. Maybe they'll avoid being alone with him now. There are people who sure fucking wouldn't go on a date with Aziz now.

When I hear someone is a creep, even if I can't do anything else with that information (because sometimes for different reasons I'm asked not to, my default behavior is to confront/openly talk shit), the minimum I do is warn any friend of that person's preferred gender away from being alone with that person.

[telee.kom]

I think a point you're missing is that the above is literally impossible. You cannot "let yourself be raped" -- the action of rape is purely in the hands of the rapist. Just like I cannot "let myself be beaten." While yes, she could have behaved differently, it literally doesn't matter given that he still ignored her disinterest and no's.

Sarcasm.

Also to add something to the discussion, I think this quote is interesting and it is related to discourse of this thread:

"The #MeToo moment is a symptom of a broken legal system. All too frequently, women and other sexual-abuse complainants couldn't get a fair hearing through institutions – including corporate structures – so they used a new tool: the internet. Stars fell from the skies. This has been very effective, and has been seen as a massive wake-up call. But what next? The legal system can be fixed, or our society could dispose of it . . . If the legal system is bypassed because it is seen as ineffectual, what will take its place? Who will be the new power brokers? . . . In times of extremes, extremists win. Their ideology becomes a religion; anyone who doesn't puppet their views is seen as an apostate, a heretic or a traitor, and moderates in the middle are annihilated. The aim of ideology is to eliminate ambiguity."

[Sarah K]

Such as...?

Loss of money, positions of power, partners, future partners, opportunities, etc. The list goes on and on, really. People who exist in the same communities talk.

There has recently been a reckoning happening in the local kink scene. I started an invite-only group for bottoms in the NYC scene to talk about their experiences - both good and bad, as the main social network for this subculture does not allow naming abusers. Many groups like this are starting up right now, and in fact, a few very prominent teachers, presenters, promoters, etc have been taken down lately after MULTIPLE stories of their abuses have been shared in these groups, and then shared with the scene at large.

[r_z]

Requiring all sexual experiences to be prosecutable to like, have empathy for someone, is an enormously cruel way to behave.

I never said or demanded that shit.

You guys just don't fucking get it. It's not just black and white out there, no matter how much you like to believe it. I'm sure, Louis CK wouldn't have lost his deals and jobs and money, were it not for those accusations against him to be true and validated by his partners (through evidence or him admitting) at some point in the process. Everything else would be bullshit and unjust.

It's incredibly childish and irresponsible to just jump on a bandwagon whenever a story like this one gets published and NOT for a second think about the circumstances and without any hesitation mark the guy as guilty. If you like it or not: There ARE cases where people had to fight off claims and accusations that were completely made up. The possibility exists. And you're denying it.

I'm all for actual sexual offenders getting their "punishment". I'm not ok with sending people to the public pillory where NOTHING is provable. Not every asshole has to be ruined for the rest of his life. And it's certainly not on you to decide who's guilty or not, especially since the lot of you is seemingly unable to handle accounts, statements, witnesses or evidence presented to you carefully and unbiased.

[r_z]

There has recently been a reckoning happening in the local kink scene. I started an invite-only group for bottoms in the NYC scene to talk about their experiences - both good and bad, as the main social network for this subculture does not allow naming abusers. Many groups like this are starting up right now, and in fact, a few very prominent teachers, presenters, promoters, etc have been taken down lately after MULTIPLE stories of their abuses have been shared in these groups, and then shared with the scene at large.

This sounds like a good thing and I respect what you 're doing there. But let me ask you: Those teachers, presenters, etc... would they've been taken down if what they did would have not been provable, and be it by the sheer amount of accounts and witnesses?

[HWB]

without any hesitation mark

Anyway, you certainly put out a lot of good points, I wish we could all approach these situations with caution whenever an accusation pops up and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Whenever an accusation pops up, the likes of it being true are the same of them being not, you just can't know

[Sarah K]

the likes of it being true are the same of them being not, you just can't know

What are you basing this off of?

[playwithfire]

I never said or demanded that shit.

Didn't say you did. But, your push for this shit to fit into the our legal systems current framework is problematic. Are you not doing that? Am I misunderstanding?

You guys just don't fucking get it. It's not just black and white out there, no matter how much you like to believe it.

I think what many of us are doing is actually advocating FOR grey-area shit to be taken more seriously. Shitty sexual experiences shouldn't need to be violent or blatantly predatory just to be taken seriously.

It's incredibly childish and irresponsible to just jump on a bandwagon whenever a story like this one gets published and NOT for a second think about the circumstances and without any hesitation mark the guy as guilty. If you like it or not: There ARE cases where people had to fight off claims and accusations that were completely made up. The possibility exists. And you're denying it.

And yet, what we are discussing is not *if* Aziz did it, but whether the actions recounted are sexual misconduct/assault. And the actions recounted are sexual misconduct and assault. Aziz may not have done those things, but if he did, that's what they are. Also, if he didn't do it, he should dispute it.

I happen to think behavior like what was outlined is pretty common from men (and wrong, and assault), just, generally they're closer to 18 than thirty-fucking-four.

[sweeterthan]

You know it's not that easy, so please stop it with your populist one liners.

Yeah, it’s way easier to blame the victim according to some in this thread.

I’m sick of reading about this topic. I would’ve ignored the Ansari story as long as possible but telee.kom saying he didn’t understand made me go read it. I know why you don’t get it but I’m still hoping that someday you do.

I think not being an asshole is more humanist than populist. Really it’s just common sense. And no, I won’t stop. Not in this thread or any other where people blame the victim or question their actions.

[r_z]

Ugh, for what it's worth, I think we're going in circles here. I spoke my piece, some of you wouldn't see my points (or even try to), some did. Let's just leave it at that. Carry on.

[Airbornefeline]

Not to start up any arguments but the NYtimes put out a pretty good article about this situation. NYtimes were the ones to break the Louis CK story btw.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/o...arassment.html


Tl;DR Aziz is an asshole but he didn't sexually assault anyone

[Sarah K]

I don't think someone repeatedly using verbal and nonverbal indications that they aren't interested requires any mind-reading capabilities.

Just because this behavior is "normal" does not mean it is right. It just demonstrates how shitty we have been at teaching consent to previous generations. I really don't understand what more she could have done in this situation.

It can't be classified as "bad sex", because sex requires consent. I think that the reason this one is so difficult for folks is because a lot of people recognize this behavior within themselves at some point in their lives, and it is hard to come to grips with that behavior being wrong.

It really isn't difficult to sit down with someone and have a straight forward discussion about what the other person/people do and do not want to do, and what they do and do not consent to doing. I feel like if people aren't comfortable doing that, then they really don't have any business fucking anyone. I am glad that the next generation is being taught affirmative consent - I honestly think that alone will make a world of difference, and will significantly cut back on situations like this that may not necessarily qualify as assault, but are WAY beyond harassment.

[playwithfire]

i don't think someone repeatedly using verbal and nonverbal indications that they aren't interested requires any mind-reading capabilities.

Just because this behavior is "normal" does not mean it is right. It just demonstrates how shitty we have been at teaching consent to previous generations. I really don't understand what more she could have done in this situation.

It can't be classified as "bad sex", because sex requires consent. I think that the reason this one is so difficult for folks is because a lot of people recognize this behavior within themselves at some point in their lives, and it is hard to come to grips with that behavior being wrong.

It really isn't difficult to sit down with someone and have a straight forward discussion about what the other person/people do and do not want to do, and what they do and do not consent to doing. I feel like if people aren't comfortable doing that, then they really don't have any business fucking anyone. I am glad that the next generation is being taught affirmative consent - i honestly think that alone will make a world of difference, and will significantly cut back on situations like this that may not necessarily qualify as assault, but are way beyond harassment.

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