Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[sweeterthan]

Holy shit everything is awful

This is why I hate this thread. We’ve gone from “she should’ve known” to “men get raped too”. What’s next? “Why didn’t she leave?” Shitty argument greatest hits!

[playwithfire]

Okay, since I've been called out on this by multiple people: maybe I'm wrong about Tinder. I've never used it. I was under the impression that it was literally an app where both parties are basically going "yeah...I'd have sex with them" and only agree to meet up if that's what they're looking for. Perhaps I understood that wrong. My bad, y'all.

I just think treating coercive sex and rape as anything other than commonplace and something that occurs in pretty much any environment is a bad argument. Like, it's everywhere, so bringing up something like Tinder as a comparison is ineffective. I realize you aren't saying "Tinder, where rape never happens" but like coercion and assault is part and parcel for a society where consent isn't taught effectively and accountability rarely exists.

[playwithfire]

I really despise this hatred, and usual hostility against men when it comes to this topic.

But like, you get that men are socialized in society differently from women, right? Like, you get that men typically commit most rapes? And that consent is taught poorly, and men are most impacted by that from the perspective of being the sexual aggressor? Statements like that don't carry an implicit dismissal of women being capable of abuse. But, surely you see a systemic problem with men committing the vast majority of rapes? It saddens me that acknowledging that is viewed as negative.

I think 2. was just you quoting another heavily bullet-pointed post someone else made but let me know if I missed something. I've already seen that post elsewhere.

What if Maynard didn't do it? What if she's telling a lie?

It's possible. But, her story is believable and we haven't had a response yet from him.

This is a personal matter happened 17 years ago.

If it actually happened, the only person with a right to privacy is her.

It would be hard for her to prove this happened. I know that.
It would be even harder for Maynard to disprove it.

Which is why seeing how he addresses it is going to be important.

[Lerxto]

But like, you get that men are socialized in society differently from women, right? Like, you get that men typically commit most rapes? And that consent is taught poorly, and men are most impacted by that from the perspective of being the sexual aggressor? Statements like that don't carry an implicit dismissal of women being capable of abuse. But, surely you see a systemic problem with men committing the vast majority of rapes? It saddens me that acknowledging that is viewed as negative.

Men typically committing rapes CANNOT be justified for women, or men in that matter to blame men in general when it comes to rape.
I agree that statement can be interpreted to target mankind as a whole. Poor choice of words.

If it actually happened, the only person with a right to privacy is her.
Which is why seeing how he addresses it is going to be important.

IF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. You guys still don't know if this thing even happened. Or if it's true.
No matter how her side of the story is "believable", wait until you hear his side of the story too. If he says yes he did it, you can point the blame at him then. Not now.

[Lerxto]

This is why I hate this thread. We’ve gone from “she should’ve known” to “men get raped too”. What’s next? “Why didn’t she leave?” Shitty argument greatest hits!

You're missing the point.
I was not talking about this incident. I was talking about sexual assault claims in general.
And yes, men get raped too. Men, in general, should not be blamed for sexual assault. Only the one who committed a crime should be blamed.
I'm personally shocked to see I get facepalmed this much by saying this. The world's gone mad.

[Sarah K]

Men, in general, should not be blamed for sexual assault. Only the one who committed a crime should be blamed.

Which, the majority of the time, is men.

Yes, absolutely anyone can be a rapist, and anyone can become the victim of rape. But the vast majority of the time, it is men carrying it out, regardless of the gender identity of the victim. Which is why there is so much focus on men calling out other men on their bullshit when it comes to this. That is typically the only way that stances will be reevaluated, because most men simply will not listen to women on this topic, will dismiss it, will make excuses, etc. Men need to do better. Not only with their own consent practices, but helping other men in that area, as well.

[Lerxto]

Which, the majority of the time, is men.

Yes, absolutely anyone can be a rapist, and anyone can become the victim of rape. But the vast majority of the time, it is men carrying it out, regardless of the gender identity of the victim. Which is why there is so much focus on men calling out other men on their bullshit when it comes to this. That is typically the only way that stances will be reevaluated, because most men simply will not listen to women on this topic, will dismiss it, will make excuses, etc. Men need to do better. Not only with their own consent practices, but helping other men in that area, as well.

I think of it as a simple cause and effect. Did they commit rape because they were men? I believe that's not the usual case.
And most men listen to the victim. You're still choosing the word women - as a victim, and men - as an offender. That's a wrongdoing, even if the message you're trying to deliver is a benevolent one.
Most offenders do not listen to the victims. People who have common sense, will pay due attention to it.
Have some faith in people. Most men will not do as you say so. Most men support the victims. Most people support the victims.

[Sarah K]

To ignore that this is a heavily gendered issue is completely bizarre.

[theimage13]

I think of it as a simple cause and effect. Did they commit rape because they were men? I believe that's not the usual case.
And most men listen to the victim. You're still choosing the word women - as a victim, and men - as an offender. That's a wrongdoing, even if the message you're trying to deliver is a benevolent one.
Most offenders do not listen to the victims. People who have common sense, will pay due attention to it.
Have some faith in people. Most men will not do as you say so. Most men support the victims. Most people support the victims.

You....you don't think that men commit rape because they're men?

Holy cow. Rape is sexual. Meaning it's driven by the MAN'S desire to shove his fetid, useless cock into a woman. How could you possibly argue that their sex has nothing to do with why they rape someone when it is literally THE reason they do it?

[Lerxto]

To ignore that this is a heavily gendered issue is completely bizarre.

This is not a gendered issue at all. A gendered issue is, for example, where there is only men's toilet and no women's toilet in a building. And I'm not joking.
Domestic abuse is not a gendered issue. Nothing truly is.
Making these problems a gendered issue will cause nothing but backlash from the innocent, vast majority of, as you say, "men".
Because they are innocent. They did nothing wrong. Why do you blame them and make them feel sorry for what they didn't do?

Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are.

[Lerxto]

You....you don't think that men commit rape because they're men?

Holy cow. Rape is sexual. Meaning it's driven by the MAN'S desire to shove his fetid, useless cock into a woman. How could you possibly argue that their sex has nothing to do with why they rape someone when it is literally THE reason they do it?

Wow. I don't even know where to start.
I'll begin with saying that your statement is false. And by saying "fetid, useless cock into a woman" you are offending a lot more people than anyone else who's being mentioned here.
Sex is also sexual. Are you saying that sex is only driven by the man's desire to fuck a woman? Not vice versa? From my experience it's not.

[eachpassingphase]

I'll be really interested to hear if/how Maynard addresses this.

One thing that I think is important for fans to realize is that we have this tendency to create an image in our head of what sort of human being our "idol" is. None of us actually know what sort of man MJK is other than that he is a talented artist but past that: we have no clue. He might be a tenderhearted man who treats others with respect - or he might be a vicious predator. We have no idea. We have no idea about ANY of the artists we admire. I see a lot of MJK fans online talking about how they just don't see him being able to do that because of these personality traits that they have projected onto a man they don't even know. I've been a fan of Maynard's work for a long time and his fanbase has always acted like he's a Grammaton Cleric or some shit.

Trent Reznor has talked about this a bit in interviews, how musicians who don't reveal a ton about themselves allow their fanbase to develop wild ideas about who they are and it generates mystery and enigma among the fans. I see this play out in a really extreme way among Maynard's fans. They know nothing about him, so they let their minds run wild with what sort of man he is. And the man they've built up in their heads is too far above something as basic and stupid as rape. But the truth is, humans are capable of all sorts of heinous shit no matter how smart or disciplined or creative they may be. MJK is no exception. I think it's really dangerous to act like certain people, better kinds of people aren't capable of hurting other humans.

Anyway, obviously I hope it's not true for both her sake and his sake but the whole "I don't think he's capable" stuff that I keep seeing across the various corners of the internet is really dangerous.

[sweeterthan]

You're missing the point.
I was not talking about this incident. I was talking about sexual assault claims in general.
And yes, men get raped too. Men, in general, should not be blamed for sexual assault. Only the one who committed a crime should be blamed.
I'm personally shocked to see I get facepalmed this much by saying this. The world's gone mad.

The patriarchy and rape culture were established by men. There’s no debate there.

[Harry Seaward]

I guess I'll jump back in because of how much I value my time. And it's hard to think that this is a topic that's 'finished' and can't be discussed further.

I’ve never experienced sexual abuse of any kind so I am in no fucking place to ever tell someone who has experienced it how to act. I can’t even fathom how abuse like that could affect someone, and mother fuck anyone who thinks they should be putting forth any suggestions on how someone should come forth.

I think that's misrepresenting the heart of what those people actually mean, at least the ones who are criticizing the use of an anonymous Twitter account for this sort of thing. I think it's less that they're criticizing a rape victim's actions in opening up about their experience and more about the idea that a person's career can be seriously damaged by something with 0 possible chance at verification. They're not coming at it from a "she's lying" angle, they're coming at it from a "this could just as likely be some scorned weirdo who Maynard didn't wave at on the street once."

I understand the reasons why somebody might not want to come forward publicly especially when it involves somebody in the form of art that is known to have some pretty passionate fans. I haven't really heard a decent alternative to pure anonymity, other than maybe the idea mentioned earlier about contacting a journalist to help with at least attempting to verify the information.

But really, I don't think the 'anonymous Twitter' thing is the actual problem here. It's a symptom of the bigger issue of society at large being ready at the drop of a hat to completely destroy somebody based on something like an anonymous accusation. I know this is a frequent talking point of people who really mean "I don't believe this story" when they say it, but sometimes it just means what it says. Anybody should be able to express themselves however they want, but people also need to be rational and measured in their response. The people who have already burned their records are just as unreasonable as the ones who are already declaring Maynard's innocence or blowing off the woman.

It's hard to take almost any position other than an immediate, hardline dismissal of anything the accused has ever done because otherwise you'll be lumped in with the "she's lying" crowd and treated like a piece of shit. This topic is pretty unique in that regard. There aren't many other subjects of conversation in Western culture that draws such intense degrees of anger towards anyone who doesn't tow the line exactly.

But I don't say these sorts of things too often because I know it's one of the identifiers of the people who actually do things like blame the victim, harrass them, blow them off, or make excuses for why a situation isn't rape. I think a lot of people might come across as way bigger shitbags than they are due to a mix of poorly explaining their position, a lack of thorough/nuanced understanding of the different angles of the topic (go ask 100 people on the street what "enthusiastic consent" is), and like I mentioned before, being pushed into a fucked up radical position in response to being absolutely pummeled online for saying the wrong thing. That shit absolutely radicalizes people.

And I'm not the "this is why Trump won" because fuck people who voted for Donald Trump, that's not something that happens due to a small misunderstanding or anything that could possibly come from a place of well meaning. I don't think all opinions should be treated with respect or not shamed, I just notice that this topic in particular is incendiery to the max with very little in the way of proportional response. In most other areas, saying something people think is slightly wrong might warrant a correction, or a discussion, or maybe some gentle ribbing. But on this topic it's usually 0-100 instantly. It's not difficult to see how this dynamic can instantly alienate anybody who thinks 'incorrectly.'

And for a bit more reference, when the Jeordie White thing broke I was pretty overwhelmingly shut down by folks on other boards because I was apparently being some crazy extremist SJW by saying what amounts to "All of the evidence points towards it probably being true." So it's strange that right now, without much change in opinion on the topic, I'm being shit on as somebody for not really feeling much different about the events than the people doing the shitting.

I think "he didn't realize it was rape" and it still being rape is a valid point. I feel like acknowledging that this shit is normalized if not even supported by society is an important part of these conversations if we want to enact change. Having sex with a woman who is non-responsive, but conscious, is historically super normalized... like it is SO normalized, and not contextualized as rape. We have to change the conversation to it is rape, and they have to account for that.

These conversations we have around "silence isn't consent" were NOT COMMON CONVERSATIONS 16 YEARS AGO. The survivor is even acknowledging that. None of that makes it excusable or acceptable, and it makes it essential that we hold Maynard accountable. And obviously it was still clearly wrong. Of course it was. But like, think of those studies where they ask men if they would rape someone but as long as they don't use the word "rape" men will often say they would.

It's fascinating how everything here are all points I was making and yet this post is receiving a much different response than any of mine. Also thank you for being one of the few people to read my post and respond to what I actually said in an accurate way without going off on a tear against a strawman.

We should place all of the blame on him. He should publicly account for his actions and attempt to make this right. Like, the dude had to physically undress her and position her into the missionary position because she wasn't moving. It was active rape. He may very well have thought it was "different" and that is exactly why him being held accountable is essential. It's why how he responds now will be so telling.

I agree with all of this as well - except the word 'forcible.' Like you explained above, it's more than possible that he didn't realize she didn't consent, whatever the reason (he's dumb, he's inattentive, he had a different understanding of sex than a normal person, or the silence =\= thing not being at all a common social understanding.) I don't think it's honest to classify that as forcible because that word implies using physical force to keep somebody in that position. That has to be classified differently than something like a rape that took place due to a lack of express consent or misunderstanding social cues or anything like that. When these things hold such enormous, immense weight the words we use are so very important.

[Lerxto]

The patriarchy and rape culture were established by men. There’s no debate there.

So we're to blame, because men who lived centuries before made the patriarchy and rape culture.
That was a time when power ruled over equality. There were no equal rights. We fixed that.
Aren't we living in the 21st century? I see women at the top of a patriarchy system. I see women raping men.
Guess I have to blame monkeys for having different sexual organs.

[Sarah K]

Lmfaooooo

[Lerxto]

Lmfaooooo

Laugh your fucking ass off as much as you want. Jesus.

[Lerxto]

"Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are."

I don't have time for people who have trouble accepting this as a fact.

[cdm]

The patriarchy and rape culture were established by men. There’s no debate there.

This.

[Sarah K]

"Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are."

I don't have time for people who have trouble accepting this as a fact.

And who commits those crimes the vast majority of the time?

[Lerxto]

This.

And that proves... what exactly? Please tell me.
I didn't realize we were living in a time where we are to be blamed for our ancestor's sins.
What I see is another, useless genderalization of a problem, which won't help solving the problem at all.

[Lerxto]

And who commits those crimes the vast majority of the time?

Rape, is a sin of an individual. You keep using the word "vast majority" like it is a golden keyword to solidify your opinion.
I keep saying with reason that it is not.
Women too, commit rape.
It looks like you are really eager to make this issue men against women.
It's not.
It's an issue between innocents versus victims. We should blame the offenders, and that could be both man or woman.
So generalizing the offenders as "men" is irrelevant.
Is this really that hard to swallow?

[sweeterthan]

So we're to blame, because men who lived centuries before made the patriarchy and rape culture.
That was a time when power ruled over equality. There were no equal rights. We fixed that.
Aren't we living in the 21st century? I see women at the top of a patriarchy system. I see women raping men.
Guess I have to blame monkeys for having different sexual organs.

wow. we have not fixed it. AT ALL. the wave of #metoo we are seeing right now is hopefully only the beginning. we have a long way to go. I think its time for you to take a seat. here's some interesting reading for you.

http://www.toiletovhell.com/we-need-...n-allegations/

If your reaction to stories about sexual assault, especially high-profile ones that involve people with power and influence, is to side with the accused, that is your own choice. Passing an individual moral judgement does not equal a court conviction. It is up to everyone to read this story to draw their own conclusions. Because of all the unnervingly in-character details and the uncanny similarities to other stories I’ve seen online and heard from other fans, the least we can do is show some empathy for this woman.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astro..._derailed.html

Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying.

when a woman is walking down the street, or on a blind date, or, yes, in an elevator alone, she doesn’t know which group you’re in. You might be the potential best guy ever in the history of history, but there’s no way for her to know that. A fraction of men out there are most definitely not in that group. Which are you? Inside your head you know, but outside your head it’s impossible to.
This is the reality women deal with all the time.

https://medium.com/@KirstyStricklan/...y-f657e244f7a1

To ask us to hand out cookies and ‘Well Done For Not Raping Anybody’ badges to men who rush to tell us #NotAllMen, is unreasonable at best, and insulting at worst.

http://theconversation.com/what-rape...culinity-85513

Working to mitigate the harms of rape culture is not about hating men. It is simply about taking responsibility for how we, as men, behave and act in the world.

You're welcome.

[cdm]

"Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are."

I don't have time for people who have trouble accepting this as a fact.

The rapist is the guilty party but we as a society bear responsibility in promoting or doing our part in dismantling the culture. It's a choice. There is a distinct difference between "you're a rapist" and "you, as part of a (barely) functioning society, should play a role in changing the culture". Not enough men are doing the former and the fact you're in here dying on this hill is proof of it. It's not a hard concept. Feel free to be intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant but don't get pissed off when people call you out.

[neorev]

I brought up the Maynard rape allegation and the other stories surrounding his behavior on tour with the appropriate links on another music forum's Tool thread and, I kid you not, someone said "It's only for inspiration." On top of that, that comment received Likes/Thank yous. Some Tool fans are fucked in the head. Then I was verbally attacked by another poster while another poster shared a Spongebob artwork that said "No one cares." So, society is failing at this point.

[Swykk]

So we're to blame, because men who lived centuries before made the patriarchy and rape culture.
That was a time when power ruled over equality. There were no equal rights. We fixed that.
Aren't we living in the 21st century? I see women at the top of a patriarchy system. I see women raping men.
Guess I have to blame monkeys for having different sexual organs.

Stefan Molyneux, is that you?

[Lerxto]

You're welcome.

What in the world made you think I'm saying we fixed the rape problem?
What we've fixed is that we have equal rights now.

From the very article you linked for me.
"If your reaction to stories about sexual assault, especially high-profile ones that involve people with power and influence, is to side with the accused, that is your own choice."
Don't you recognize that's exactly what I've been saying?
You think the high-profile ones with power and influence is purely made of men? No. Absolutely not.

"Do not expect any legal action to result from these anonymous claims. If the person behind the Twitter account came out and tried, it would be almost impossible to prove in a court of law that an assault ever transpired. Victims of sexual violence can sometimes take many, many years to process and unpack the abuse they suffered. By this time, any opportunity to collect evidence is long gone."
Maybe 17 years ago, yes. Not true now.
If the victim came out and tried right after the assault, we could verify the offender and there are time to collect evidence, especially if a women is a victim.
Have you ever considered what would happen if men said he was sexually assaulted, or harassed? Guess not.

There was a man in Japan who was convicted for a crime that he didn't commit.
He was in a subway. He didn't touched a thing. But a girl told the officers he tried to sexually harass her.
That man was put in jail for months, have been tried, lost his job and friends. Only to be found out he was not guilty after all.

The system is there to protect the people, and it protects ALL people.
If one individual who is not responsible for the crime gets convicted, the system failed. Not the other way around.
We may not catch every perpetrator. But if that guarantees an innocent one is not convicted, it is worth it.
This is the most basic thing we learn about the justice system.

All I've said, is we should stay with the victims and support them.
But, not all of them are men.

[sweeterthan]

Yeah, we still haven’t fixed it.

[Lerxto]

The rapist is the guilty party but we as a society bear responsibility in promoting or doing our part in dismantling the culture. It's a choice. There is a distinct difference between "you're a rapist" and "you, as part of a (barely) functioning society, should play a role in changing the culture". Not enough men are doing the former and the fact you're in here dying on this hill is proof of it. It's not a hard concept. Feel free to be intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant but don't get pissed off when people call you out.

What makes you say not enough men are willing to fix this problem?
Ask any men around you. What should they do?
Again, this is a problem for all of us. Men and women.
The question is, "what should WE do to fix this problem"?

I'm not intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant. Read my previous replies and comments.
After that, if you still feel that way, I don't know what to say anymore.

[Lerxto]

Yeah, we still haven’t fixed it.

Yeah, and you're not helping it either with blaming men in this issue.