Twiggys abuse/rape allegations

[sweeterthan]

154 posts into this thread and we still have words like fake and false popping up. Massive eye roll.

[theimage13]

I think it’s important to separate the art from the artist/person...How the music he created inspired a lot of kids to get over their own demons and issues is a completely different story.

I don't know if I've really found a firm stance on this, to be honest. But right now, the way I see it - and I admit that this is not a 100% apples-to-apples comparison - is that this is similar to a Machiavelli-esque ends justifying the means sort of philosophy. Again, I know it's not a completely solid comparison (if committing despicable acts are what inspired the art to be created, it would be a closer analogy).

But that said, I feel that to validate the art is to validate the artist. If JK Rowling suddenly became a radical terrorist, would you read Harry Potter to your kids? Would you tell your children "it doesn't matter that she did terrible, terrible things, because she wrote great stories"? Yes, that's a far-fetched example. But it's the same principal - you're saying that a person's felonious and disgusting deeds can be ignored because they did something else that helped you through a bad time yourself.

Personally, I don't think I'm comfortable with that. I don't think that the artist and the art are "completely different stories" as you put it.

And just for context, Manson's albums helped me in the 90s. I was a clean and non-violent person, but I was also awkward as fuck and didn't fit the religious mold that was expected of me (among other things), and so those albums and the theatrics on stage made me feel less alone. So this isn't coming from someone who's inherently anti-MM or anything like that.

[tremolo]

I don't know if I've really found a firm stance on this, to be honest. But right now, the way I see it - and I admit that this is not a 100% apples-to-apples comparison - is that this is similar to a Machiavelli-esque ends justifying the means sort of philosophy. Again, I know it's not a completely solid comparison (if committing despicable acts are what inspired the art to be created, it would be a closer analogy).

But that said, I feel that to validate the art is to validate the artist. If JK Rowling suddenly became a radical terrorist, would you read Harry Potter to your kids? Would you tell your children "it doesn't matter that she did terrible, terrible things, because she wrote great stories"? Yes, that's a far-fetched example. But it's the same principal - you're saying that a person's felonious and disgusting deeds can be ignored because they did something else that helped you through a bad time yourself.

Personally, I don't think I'm comfortable with that. I don't think that the artist and the art are "completely different stories" as you put it.

And just for context, Manson's albums helped me in the 90s. I was a clean and non-violent person, but I was also awkward as fuck and didn't fit the religious mold that was expected of me (among other things), and so those albums and the theatrics on stage made me feel less alone. So this isn't coming from someone who's inherently anti-MM or anything like that.

I know what you mean, it’s really hard to find where you draw the line.

I’ve always had an inclination towards tortured artists, or I guess it’s more accurate to say “art created by tortured artists.”

As an example, I love Hole, mostly because of the lyrics and the sound of their first 2 albums. But lyrics above all. I love Courtney Love’s writing style, the imagery she uses, I just find it phenomenal and it really resonates with me in a way that is hard to explain. But I don’t think I’d like to be her friend, lover, or hang out with her, because I just don’t agree with many of the things she has done. But then again, I think her behaviour is just another expression of her inner demons, just like her lyrics. I do have sympathy for her though. Having read some stuff about her childhood and upbringing makes it pretty clear why she ended up doing all the things she did, including her art.


In the case of Twiggy, I don’t care much. I have enjoyed his music, but I’ve never been a big Manson or Twiggy fan, so this doesn’t come as a big shock.

I despise what Hitler did, but I find his drawings are amazing.

I love Jimmi Hendrix, and his music really inspired me. That doesn’t mean I support the fact he used to hit women.

And we can go on with many examples like these. It all comes down to where each one of us draws the line, and I think that should be respected by everybody else.

It would be different if those horrible actions (rape, abuse, terrorism, etc) were the art in itself. Then it would be easier to make that judgement call.


In the Harry Potter example, I wouldn’t give 2 fucks, to be honest. Unless her books were filled with references that made terrorism seem good or not so bad. Also it would be different if I was a victim of her terrorist actions (directly or indirectly to a certain degree).


I’ve come to understand that we all do fucked up shit, and the fact that someone is capable of creating something beautiful doesn’t mean they’re not capable of doing something awful. I’m sure that if I met any of my music heroes and got to know him closely and in depth, and knew all the stuff that they think, I would find something that would make me cringe, or completely disagree with them from a values point of view.

It’s a big grey area.

[playwithfire]

I despise what Hitler did, but I find his drawings are amazing.

dude was like the thomas kinkade of genocide

[Harry Seaward]

I don't know if I've really found a firm stance on this, to be honest. But right now, the way I see it - and I admit that this is not a 100% apples-to-apples comparison - is that this is similar to a Machiavelli-esque ends justifying the means sort of philosophy. Again, I know it's not a completely solid comparison (if committing despicable acts are what inspired the art to be created, it would be a closer analogy).

But that said, I feel that to validate the art is to validate the artist. If JK Rowling suddenly became a radical terrorist, would you read Harry Potter to your kids? Would you tell your children "it doesn't matter that she did terrible, terrible things, because she wrote great stories"? Yes, that's a far-fetched example. But it's the same principal - you're saying that a person's felonious and disgusting deeds can be ignored because they did something else that helped you through a bad time yourself.

Personally, I don't think I'm comfortable with that. I don't think that the artist and the art are "completely different stories" as you put it.

And just for context, Manson's albums helped me in the 90s. I was a clean and non-violent person, but I was also awkward as fuck and didn't fit the religious mold that was expected of me (among other things), and so those albums and the theatrics on stage made me feel less alone. So this isn't coming from someone who's inherently anti-MM or anything like that.

Do you like David Bowie, Led Zeppelin, or the Beatles? Elvis? Mick Jagger? Iggy Pop? Aerosmith?

[icklekitty]

I feel like to an extent it's *important* to separate art from artist; you're almost setting yourself up to fail if you put the person on such a high pedestal (their skill, their work ethic, their style - that's different). I know people who put musicians on such a high pedestal it's unrealistic. I know people who are angry at Trent because he had the AUDACITY to get married and have kids, change the way he worked ever so slightly, and *gasp* let his wife do backing vocals on a NIN song. It's almost like he's a human or something! :eyeroll:

[ltrandazzo]

I feel like to an extent it's *important* to separate art from artist; you're almost setting yourself up to fail if you put the person on such a high pedestal (their skill, their work ethic, their style - that's different). I know people who put musicians on such a high pedestal it's unrealistic. I know people who are angry at Trent because he had the AUDACITY to get married and have kids, change the way he worked ever so slightly, and *gasp* let his wife do backing vocals on a NIN song. It's almost like he's a human or something! :eyeroll:

Let alone the fact that she's done vocals on TWO songs now! THE NERVE

[NotoriousTIMP]

I feel like to an extent it's *important* to separate art from artist; you're almost setting yourself up to fail if you put the person on such a high pedestal (their skill, their work ethic, their style - that's different). I know people who put musicians on such a high pedestal it's unrealistic. I know people who are angry at Trent because he had the AUDACITY to get married and have kids, change the way he worked ever so slightly, and *gasp* let his wife do backing vocals on a NIN song. It's almost like he's a human or something! :eyeroll:

This brings up a memory of when I saw NIN in FL back in 2009. I stood next to two girls who were in the pit with me and both had on white shirts that said "HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS TO US?" written on the front. When asked what that meant, they explained, with tears in their eyes, that they were so upset that TR had come out publicly with the news of his relationship to Mariqueen and wanted to voice their disdain towards TR in person. I just replied "wow....okay" and slowly moved away from their area.

[theruiner]

^^Oh. My. Good. Lord.

[Amaro]

This brings up a memory of when I saw NIN in FL back in 2009. I stood next to two girls who were in the pit with me and both had on white shirts that said "HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS TO US?" written on the front. When asked what that meant, they explained, with tears in their eyes, that they were so upset that TR had come out publicly with the news of his relationship to Mariqueen and wanted to voice their disdain towards TR in person. I just replied "wow....okay" and slowly moved away from their area.

[eversonpoe]

http://www.businessinsider.com/kevin...sation-2017-10

kevin spacey turns out to be a predatory asshole who uses his "apology" to finally come out...

way to be a decent human being, kevin. /sarcasm

[ton]

This brings up a memory of when I saw NIN in FL back in 2009. I stood next to two girls who were in the pit with me and both had on white shirts that said "HOW COULD YOU HAVE DONE THIS TO US?" written on the front. When asked what that meant, they explained, with tears in their eyes, that they were so upset that TR had come out publicly with the news of his relationship to Mariqueen and wanted to voice their disdain towards TR in person. I just replied "wow....okay" and slowly moved away from their area.

What the hell

[allegro]

http://www.businessinsider.com/kevin...sation-2017-10

kevin spacey turns out to be a predatory asshole who uses his "apology" to finally come out...

way to be a decent human being, kevin. /sarcasm

I love Wanda Sykes' reaction:

"You don’t get to choose to hide under the rainbow"

[botley]

I saw something from the writer Megan Dietz circulating on Facebook, to the effect of: notably, people IMMEDIATELY believed Rapp's story and were condemning Spacey's actions (quite rightly), but are still having trouble believing women's stories about abusers — at least until an overwhelming plurality of voices are echoing them, saying "this also happened to me". This is a gendered issue of mistrust for women, and there's no doubt about it.

Sure, it's a little creepy sometimes how much thirsty goth people lust after Reznor, to the point of being awkward/uncomfortable around matters concerning his personal life. On the other hand, it's totally understandable — given how much encouragement they received over the years to behave that way, from seeing his public persona packaged as a sex symbol — particularly to the alternative lifestyle communities, some of whom saw in him a kindred spirit. It's chilling to think that someone with White's cache in that circle would seemingly be so willing to trade that allure for power over women, with such destructive consequences. It's sadly all too common in the performing arts, particularly where people bond over the instant emotional connection that music provides.

Should give us all pause to think about our part in feeding the idolatry.

[allegro]

I saw a thing posted in a comment on Twitter about how we can blame Western (rape) culture for all of these crimes, and they cited Pepe LePew constantly chasing Penelope Pussycat.

And that reminded me of the old “Pirates of the Caribbean” rides at Disneyland and Disney World where drunk pirates were chasing terrified women or auctioning them off like slaves:

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/06/29...uction-brides/

[tremolo]

[Sutekh]

Re: is it ethical to enjoy bad people's work

It's fine if you aren't paying them and your consumption doesn't act as a vector for further transmission of their shitty values

I mean if those bases are covered, what could the problem possibly be

Pretty much all writers philosophers musicians etc are appalling shits in some way, it goes all the way back to antiquity (plato was anti democratic, aristotle was sexist, and so on). The propensity is remarkable

[theimage13]

I saw something from the writer Megan Dietz circulating on Facebook, to the effect of: notably, people IMMEDIATELY believed Rapp's story and were condemning Spacey's actions (quite rightly), but are still having trouble believing women's stories about abusers — at least until an overwhelming plurality of voices are echoing them, saying "this also happened to me". This is a gendered issue of mistrust for women, and there's no doubt about it.

Sure, it's a little creepy sometimes how much thirsty goth people lust after Reznor, to the point of being awkward/uncomfortable around matters concerning his personal life. On the other hand, it's totally understandable — given how much encouragement they received over the years to behave that way, from seeing his public persona packaged as a sex symbol — particularly to the alternative lifestyle communities, some of whom saw in him a kindred spirit. It's chilling to think that someone with White's cache in that circle would seemingly be so willing to trade that allure for power over women, with such destructive consequences. It's sadly all too common in the performing arts, particularly where people bond over the instant emotional connection that music provides.

Should give us all pause to think about our part in feeding the idolatry.

I see this allllll the time at work. Walking around with a laminate instantly makes you a target for women asking how they can get backstage. I'm not going to make the assumption that every one of them is asking because they want to get in someone's pants - but I have to wonder how many of them would go that route if the artist suggested it, even if that was not the person's intent for wanting to meet them in the first place (a la LCK and "you don't mind if I do this, do you?").