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Thread: Twiggys abuse/rape allegations

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Y'all seem to always forget that false rape accusations are a crime (with a rate that sits well below 10% no matter what statistic you pull, also remember the majority of people who are raped do not even *go* to the police so think about just how small that number is) that when provable is pursued and leads to conviction in some cases.
    What makes you think anyone forgot that? Rape is also a crime that when provable is pursued and leads to conviction in some cases. I don't really get your point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Y'all are doing the equivalent of visiting a town that has burned to ashes and acting like now is the time to talk about the two people that drowned in the next town over. "Oh hey I know this particular case seems highly probable given the enormous amount of bad reports that exist about this fuckass, specifically this one that is especially verifiable and damning." but rape accusations RUIN LIVES so I'm just gonna be REAL FOCUSED ON THAT because I'm HELPING
    lmao yeah that's equivalent to this? jesus christ. We're having a discussion on a nine inch nails forum, calm down.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    Would me posting a few links of men who actually got life in prison for rape negate those examples though? No, so you bringing those up doesn't negate the fact that there are men who had their lives ruined by being falsely accused of rape. Why not think of those people?
    Because of systemic oppression of those who are raped. Victims face ridicule and have to deal with dopey people on the internet and other places when they come out. Our job isn't to negate those who have been raped with those who falsely claimed to have been. That doesn't fix anything. Your point is weak and ill-informed.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Randazzo View Post
    I see that you've been dragged for this already, but I wanted to point out that a person with mental health issues is NOT the same as someone who rapes someone and hands out STIs like candy.
    Not getting into it but I am friendly with a couple musicians who know/knew North and told me stories about him and what he was up to around that time....Hes got more issues besides mental health put it that way.....but back to Twigs

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helpmeiaminhell View Post
    Not getting into it but I am friendly with a couple musicians who know/knew North and told me stories about him and what he was up to around that time....Hes got more issues besides mental health put it that way.....but back to Twigs
    Coooooooooooool. Your false equivalency is still gross.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    What makes you think anyone forgot that?
    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Y'all seem to
    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    I don't really get your point there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    jesus christ. We're having a discussion on a nine inch nails forum, calm down.
    Metaphors, the word "fuckass," and sarcasm. Known as un-calm behavior across internet forums for millennia.

    Perhaps I think that the priorities y'all seem to have in this conversation indicate to me that surely you must think false accusations loom in much greater equivalence, or perhaps with less justice served comparably, to getting raped than statistics and life seem to indicate.

    I'm just trying to s e eb o t h s i d es

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Randazzo View Post
    Because of systemic oppression of those who are raped. Victims face ridicule and have to deal with dopey people on the internet and other places when they come out. Our job isn't to negate those who have been raped with those who falsely claimed to have been. That doesn't fix anything.
    What was the point of you bringing up those names in response to my statement about false allegations? What's the relation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Randazzo View Post
    Your point is weak and ill-informed.
    same dude

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Metaphors, the word "fuckass," and sarcasm. Known as un-calm behavior across internet forums for millennia.
    "calm down" was in response to the ridiculously dumb and over-the-top analogy you threw out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Perhaps I think that the priorities y'all seem to have in this conversation indicate to me that surely you must think false accusations loom in much greater equivalence, or perhaps with less justice served comparably, to getting raped than statistics and life seem to indicate.
    I've flat out said blatantly so many times that they're not prevalent, they just shouldn't be ignored and dismissed. You must not be reading what I'm actually writing before replying so I'm just not even going to attempt to talk to you anymore.
    Last edited by Airbornefeline; 10-22-2017 at 02:27 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    I've flat out said blatantly so many times that they're not prevalent, they just shouldn't be ignored. You must not be reading what I'm actually writing before replying so I'm just not even going to attempt to talk to you anymore.
    And here I was thinking my collective nouns throughout this conversation indicated that I felt like multiple people were guilty of this. Maybe even to varying degrees.

    I thought we were just having a discussion on a
    nine inch nails forum :~(

    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    I'm just not even going to attempt to talk to you anymore.
    :~)
    Last edited by playwithfire; 10-22-2017 at 02:28 PM. Reason: :~)

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    What was the point of you bringing up those names in response to my statement about false allegations? What's the relation?
    That men seem to get away with it. A lot. That alone negates false accusations and bringing up instances of them to negate ANY accusation is oppressive.

    Still ill-informed. You're not very good at defending this weak point.

  10. #70
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    The thread has been emotional because people are relating it to their own feelings or thoughts or experiences or even the (albeit subconscious) idea that "I could be wrongfully accused, that could be me facing prison."

    But that's not necessarily helpful to Jessicka Addams (the one making the public allegations), nor is it applicable from the legal or statistical standpoint.

    I seem to always logically take this apart from a legal standpoint relating to a crime: Means, Motive, Opportunity.

    Stepping back and looking at all sides, in the possible absence of evidence (hard evidence is not a requirement in any crime; a hard preponderance of evidence is required in CIVIL suits), and to view its "purpose," if any, from the perspective of the person making the allegations.

    I'll give a fairly recent example: Patrick Kane, the Chicago Blackhawk, was accused of sexual assault (legal statutes in most states mostly do not call it "rape," anymore) by a female fan who was one of many out drinking with Kane and a group of people celebrating the Blackhawks' Stanley Cup win in 2015.

    The allegations were investigated by the Buffalo NY police, including collecting DNA from Kane and the victim, and viewing security camera footage from Kane's home, and all kinds of other stuff. The public went nuts, and Kane immediately lost a few very lucrative endorsement contracts that he'll never get back, costing him millions. Ultimately, the investigation showed that none of Kane's DNA was on the victim's person or her clothing, and all of the security cameras showed nothing unusual and there was a second girl present during the alleged attack who didn't corroborate the victim's story, plus some other weird shit happened like the victim went home and changed her shirt, first, before going to the hospital to get a "rape kit" done, and then her Mom mailed the shirt to the press or something, I dunno. Bottom line: The victim started refusing to cooperate, especially after the police -- who at first seemed hell-bent in taking down a snotty rich hockey player who assaulted a hockey groupie (they're known in the area as "Ice Queens") -- completely reversed course and held a press conference stating that no charges would be brought against Kane.

    Okay, so if Kane DIDN'T do it (as seems to be shown by the evidence as well as his insistence and his NOT opting to settle the case, as can be typical, to make it go away), what motive would the victim have to bring false charges? Well, the first motive would be, of course, the potential of a large cash settlement. There also existed means and opportunity ON HER PART to accomplish this. Kane also had all three elements but several witnesses contended that he was REALLY REALLY drunk, like falling down unconscious drunk, so many experts argued that this removed the "opportunity" aspect from his end.

    So, now, let's view this Jessicka Addams allegation from this same legal perspective: The attacks, one being sexual but most being a series of physical and mental abuse, happened many years ago; it's difficult at best and realistically impossible at worst to gather any physical evidence this many years later (although, she does state that there was a witness, their friend Pete, but it's not clear that Pete is even ALIVE at this point); so, what is Jessicka's means, motive and opportunity? Let's start with motive. Large sums of money from White? Not likely, he's not THAT successful. And, even IF she were to get a monetary settlement, the reverse repercussions to her career would likely FAR outweigh any monetary gain in a a settlement; she made the losses and risks pretty clear in her Facebook essay. So, motive is most likely, in this case, to protect others from the same fate as herself, which she clearly indicates in said essay. She indicates that her family has known her secret for a long time, has been very supportive, and she's been in therapy for a long time. Publicly accusing her abuser won't change any of that, won't make her happy. She will get no day in court. This isn't "revenge" as she is more likely to suffer than Mr. White.

    If we remove ourselves totally from the situation, including any personal experience with assault or abuse or whatever, and carefully read her statement, all is obvious as to the reason why she is publicly stating her startling story.

    But this and the other thread went off the rails as to "whom to believe" as if it even matters. It doesn't.

    It SHOULD matter if it was your own family member or somebody you loved or a good friend, where there is genuine emotional attachment to either the victim or the abuser. But, judging isn't up to us in this case. It's too far removed from our reality and there will never BE an "aha" moment like the Patrick Kane case or even the Harvey Weinstein case (although I suspect that Ms. Addams, who indicated in her essay that she knows other White victims who have come forward, hopes that the end result will be protecting other potential victims, which is similar to the motivations of those in the Weinstein case).

    Yes, there HAVE been men released from prison for false allegations of sexual assault: Mostly black men who were tortured by police into false confessions and ID'd by witnesses who were also badgered by police in order to "solve the case" because black men are expendable in our society and it's easy to just "pick one" in a lineup and make the public think that the case was solved and the streets are safe again.

    But, this isn't that type of case. Obviously.
    Last edited by allegro; 10-22-2017 at 02:43 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Randazzo View Post
    That men seem to get away with it. A lot. That alone negates false accusations and bringing up instances of them to negate ANY accusation is oppressive.

    Still ill-informed. You're not very good at defending this weak point.
    So you did bring those up to negate false allegations lmao? My point is apparently weak and ill-informed yet you don't even know what your point is. "Our job isn't to negate those who have been raped with those who falsely claimed to have been. That doesn't fix anything" wtf hahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Randazzo View Post
    Still ill-informed. You're not very good at defending this weak point.
    again, same dude

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    So you did bring those up to negate false allegations lmao? My point is apparently weak and ill-informed yet you don't even know what your point is. "Our job isn't to negate those who have been raped with those who falsely claimed to have been. That doesn't fix anything" wtf hahahaha.


    again, same dude

    You don’t get to be a cat.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by icklekitty View Post
    You don’t get to be a cat.
    Sorry for having differing opinions

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    wtf hahahaha.
    Troll harder next time.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    I'm just trying to s e eb o t h s i d es
    This is what I was ATTEMPTING to do, but I really fucked up.........badly.

    I ended up sounding like I didn't believe her (which wasn't true) all because I didn't rule out the possibility of it being false. I also made myself look like I didn't give two shits about her claims which is far from the truth.

    I guess that's the price of having Aspergers, the things I wrote down SOUNDED harmless and reasonable in my head.......it obviously didn't and it also proves I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to rape.

    I fucked up badly, plain and simple and I take all the blame for it, I don't have an excuse for it.

  16. #76
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    FWIW, here's a link I came across that discusses the predicament some are dealing with cases like these that hopefully helps:

    https://lifehacker.com/the-your-fave-is-problematic-reading-list-1819283807


  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Randazzo View Post
    Troll harder next time.
    Oh ok lol now I'm trolling apparently? Impossible for anyone to disagree with you and not be a troll? "what the fuck hahahaha" was my genuine reaction to reading you say something that directly contradicts what you said just a few posts ago lmfao.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouOftenForget View Post
    FWIW, here's a link I came across that discusses the predicament some are dealing with cases like these that hopefully helps:

    https://lifehacker.com/the-your-fave-is-problematic-reading-list-1819283807

    This is awesome, a must-read.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airbornefeline View Post
    What makes you think anyone forgot that? Rape is also a crime that when provable is pursued and leads to conviction in some cases. I don't really get your point there.


    lmao yeah that's equivalent to this? jesus christ. We're having a discussion on a nine inch nails forum, calm down.
    So because this is being discussed on a nine inch nails forum, the discussion is less impactful? I find this discussion to important and necessary because of the patriarchal bullshit that still holds this topic back is creeping into this and the wienstien thread. If its not that important to you to discuss it on our forum, then move on or take a fucking seat and learn something.

  20. #80
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    It just seems (to me, anyway) that some people here didn't really read Ms. Addams' full statement, or at least didn't read it carefully from standpoint of "why would she want to lie?" (as has already been pointed out by others, here).

    She actually explains, pretty fully and intelligently, why she was quiet for all these years, and she explains her motivation for finally telling her story. But this thread went off the rails in the other thread seemingly without consideration of the text from her essay.

    This is just so sad, to me.
    Last edited by allegro; 10-22-2017 at 03:30 PM.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    So because this is being discussed on a nine inch nails forum, the discussion is less impactful? I find this discussion to important and necessary because of the patriarchal bullshit that still holds this topic back is creeping into this and the wienstien thread. If its not that important to you to discuss it on our forum, then move on or take a fucking seat and learn something.
    Yes, because this is just a bunch of nobodies talking on a nine inch nails forum, the discussion is less impactful than the absurd situation that other guy equated this to.

    The fact that I've written so many posts engaging with everyone who's responded to me makes it plainly obvious I think it's worth discussing.

    You guys seem to have a real problem with people who don't tow the line. I'm not gonna start whipping myself on the back and telling you guys how right you are just because you're upset that I don't agree with you.

    This conversation quickly moved away from the specific case that started all this. I did not initiate that, I simply added my opinion. In terms of how I feel in this specific case, I'd agree he most probably did it but that doesn't mean every accuser should automatically believed in every instance which is the claim that started this whole false-allegation discussion.
    Last edited by Airbornefeline; 10-22-2017 at 03:49 PM.

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    It just seems (to me, anyway) that some people here didn't really read Ms. Addams' full statement, or at least didn't read it carefully from standpoint of "why would she want to lie?" (as has already been pointed out by others, here).

    She actually explains, pretty fully and intelligently, why she was quiet for all these years, and she explains her motivation for finally telling her story. But this thread went off the rails in the other thread seemingly without consideration of the text from her essay.

    This is just so sad, to me.
    It's really sad. It's interesting that she thinks his twiggy persona is based off of her. I remember thinking there was some sort of degrading mockery there that came across to me when I was exposed to the band. I've never been a manson fan because I wasn't into the music but also i didn't find that part of their schtick to be appealing.

    ETA: I'm adding the text from her essay to the original post in this thread.

  23. #83
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    This is disgusting, im reading closed mindedness from all sides here. Both from supporters chastising people who are questioning the alligations (ie accusing people of being RAPE APOLOGISTS, wtf?) and the people who think all women lie about these things.

    Shame on all of you.

  24. #84
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    I was just talking to the mrs a few days ago about how it seems that rapes perpetrated by boyfriends and husbands are WILDLY underreported.
    Hell, it wasn't THAT long ago that you could legally rape your wife.
    The fabric of our society is shot through with a thread of abuse, from hollywood to marital beds, that we collectively don't really talk about nearly enough.
    But perhaps that's starting to change and that's a good thing.

  25. #85
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    The vast, vast majority of rapes are carried out by people the victims are very familiar with - friends, family members, parters, etc. The portrayal of rapists being scary people hiding out in dark alleys I think clouds a lot of people's perceptions of what rape is and is not. And I think that in turn, that makes it difficult to come to terms with how widespread this problem actually is. We want to believe that sexual assault is carried out by "bad" people. And while that IS the case, those bad people are also our friends, our neighbors, musicians we admire, our family members, our partners, etc. And it becomes difficult for people to come to terms with those conflicting ideas.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SM Rollinger View Post
    This is disgusting, im reading closed mindedness from all sides here. Both from supporters chastising people who are questioning the alligations (ie accusing people of being RAPE APOLOGISTS, wtf?) and the people who think all women lie about these things.

    Shame on all of you.







    ^^ that's my personal fav because lol literal rape apology



    EDIT: This next one is NOT RAPE apology it's just pretty insensitive to get into considering one woman's harrowing account of abuse and all dB-)



    Quote Originally Posted by SM Rollinger View Post
    Shame on all of you.
    :~(

    fwiw, I'm not losing too much sleep over if the above is all literal rape apology, because settling into "wow y'all are being fucky and insensitive at a highly unfortunate time" feels sufficient to me. House on fire, talking about drowning victims, etc.
    Last edited by playwithfire; 10-22-2017 at 08:30 PM.

  27. #87
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    I think the real lesson we've learned to ask ourselves today is when false reporting of rape apologists will get the real justice it deserves.

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    Why the hell is my comment in there? Re-read the definition of rape apology and re-read my post and you'll discover my post doesn't fit the fucking definition. Fuck you for accusing me of doing such a thing.

  29. #89
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    Oops my bad lol

    Let's settle for "some things that could be construed as being rape apology adjacent and this other post which was just kinda insensitive considering the circumstances" -- I added an edit.

    hope this helps

  30. #90
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    also oh hey this thing I guess


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