How do you interpret The Fragile?

[Sesquipedalism]

I'm always scared to start new threads, for fear of moderator Redundant/Stupid Thread Smackdown. But I figured I'd make an exception here since it'd be cool if this became its own conversation.

I was talking with my wife tonight and something came out of my mouth that was rather unexpected which, in itself, is a bit unexpected outside of Being John Malkovitch.Most double albums have a "Disc 1" and a "Disc 2" (or and A/B)—I can only think of Smashing Pumpkins Mellon Collie right now—and you listen to Disc 1 first because 1 comes before 2. (I remember some of the posts from the "'Everything' Debuts on Zane Lowe" thread and this news may apparently shock some people on ETS right now). I've always only played The Fragile,as Left then Right. I was never instructed to do this; when it arrived on my doorstep, I was woefully out of the NIN loop, too busy chasing blow to be bothered with music news. That's just how I played the discs, and it occurs to me now that that's because I'm American and assume everything goes from left to right, since I read that way. I tried a run through the other way, Right then Left, and you can certainly read/interpret it as a story, albeit a significantly different one.

So, my question: Did Reznor ever specifically state that the "Left" disc thematically comes before the "Right" disc?

*(Possible) Evidence that the traditional reading—Left is "supposed to" be before Right—is the "correct" one.
-The '99 blog posts about changing the end of "Somewhat Damaged" to be more confrontational to open the album.
-I don't know for sure, but I assume the cassette edition was a double cassette, and there's a chance that it's divided differently. NINWiki hasn't been loading for me today, so I can't currently check myself.
-I also don't know what the vinyls were called, nor do I recall if it was a 3xLP or a 4xLP. If they're, say A/B, C/D, E/F, & H/G, this whole idea is pretty much buggered.

I've got some other thoughts on this whole issue that I'll post below, so as not to turn a simple question into a text wall, for those reading on mobiles.

*And even if he did, for the other critical theory geeks who fall into the "once it's out in the world, the text belongs at least partially to the reader" school, does it matter?

[Sesquipedalism]

The Autobiographical Reading
Several songs chronicle the death of Trent's grandmother.
(For Example: "I'm Looking Forward to Joining You, Finally," "The Day the World Went Away")

Several songs chronicle the departure of a romantic love.
(For Example: "We're in This Together," "The Fragile")

Several songs chronicle the betrayal of an emotionally marooning friend.
(For Example: "Somewhat Damaged," "No, You Don't," "10 Miles High")

If this is indeed a sequel to Spiral, several songs chronicle how all of this is turning the "Trent" of Spiral back into a human being (instead of the machine he became in "The Becoming").
(For Example: "The New Flesh," "Please")

I've never been one to read things strictly as autobiography and, in this case, I think it's less appropriate since Trent has repeatedly said that he only became like the character from Spiral after the writing of the album. But one could even argue that that doesn't matter.

More to come; just wanted to get something in here so that mods can see this maybe isn't a totally inane conversation to propose.

[Sesquipedalism]

[scene missing]


I still think this could be an interesting conversation.

[Amaro]

The Left definitely comes before the Right.

In some ways, The Fragile is a response to The Downward Spiral. Reznor compared the lyrical content of the two albums:

I wanted this album to sound like there was something inherently flawed in the situation, like someone struggling to put the pieces together. The Downward Spiral was about peeling off layers and arriving at a naked, ugly end. This album starts at the end, then attempts to create order from chaos, but never reaches the goal. It’s probably a bleaker album because it arrives back where it starts — (with) the same emotion. The album begins "Somewhat Damaged" and ends "Ripe (With Decay)".

http://www.ransomfellowship.org/arti...eel, Jr.&TID=4

So...you could start with Right.

Or...

Perhaps the thread title should be changed to "How do YOU interpret the storyline of "The Fragile."

I still think this could be an interesting conversation.

http://www.ninwiki.com/The_Fragile_(halo)

\\

I have nothing really personal to add at this time, but I always dig talk of The Fragile.

[Sesquipedalism]

The Left definitely comes before the Right.

In some ways, The Fragile is a response to The Downward Spiral. Reznor compared the lyrical content of the two albums:

I wanted this album to sound like there was something inherently flawed in the situation, like someone struggling to put the pieces together. The Downward Spiral was about peeling off layers and arriving at a naked, ugly end. This album starts at the end, then attempts to create order from chaos, but never reaches the goal. It’s probably a bleaker album because it arrives back where it starts — (with) the same emotion. The album begins "Somewhat Damaged" and ends "Ripe (With Decay)".


http://www.ransomfellowship.org/arti...eel, Jr.&TID=4

I love that you cited your source.

Thank you.

Which I suppose brings me to the aforementioned lit. geek question: Does it matter that he said that? There's what's called the intentional fallacy in critical theory that very basically says that an author's intent does not dictate the nature of his or her art. For instance, we can't ask Edgar Allan Poe what he meant by having the native people of Tsalal be coal black and afraid of anything white because he's dead/ If he answered the question at some point, his answer has been lost to history. So, some people interpret it as a racial allegory; I've written a paper that deals with it very differently. Thus, if The Fragile were put out by someone anonymous, or Trent had died before giving that interview, we wouldn't have anyone to tell us where the album begins and ends. Which brings the Left/Right thing right back into play. And if that can happen under certain circumstances, does what the author have to say about his or her own text really matter much, once he or she gives it to the world?

Some people say very much no, the author's intent doesn't matter. Some say you'd be stupid to ignore what the author was trying to do. No one answer is right.

[Sesquipedalism]

So...you could start with Right.

Or...





http://www.ninwiki.com/The_Fragile_(halo)

\\

I have nothing really personal to add at this time, but I always dig talk of The Fragile.

Magrão, I was thinking about these when I was writing that. What the fuck would it mean to have "Pilgrimage" at the end of the album? I know he said somewhere that the song is supposed to be the sound of an invading army, but that sort of fits rather awkwardly with the general interpretations of the record.

[butter_hole]

Unrelated but semi-related: "I'm Looking Forward..." is a cool replacement for the opening track. Very immediate, but mellow; unexpected. Try it out in a playlist.

[butter_hole]

Magrão, I was thinking about these when I was writing that. What the fuck would it mean to have "Pilgrimage" at the end of the album? I know he said somewhere that the song is supposed to be the sound of an invading army, but that sort of fits rather awkwardly with the general interpretations of the record.

I think these ideas would probably sound a lot better with earlier, non sequenced versions of the tracks?

Did we ever find out what Rotation was? I know Anomaly is now "TWOIT" and Stained is apparently "Underneath it All"?

[eversonpoe]

one time i tried listening to right and then left, and it felt extremely odd, simply because i was so used to going from left to right.

that said, the end of ripe (with decay) goes into somewhat damaged pretty perfectly, and the great below as the final track is fantastic.

also, to answer part of your original question, the vinyl sides are labeled a-f. but that still doesn't mean one HAS to listen to it in that order.

[Sesquipedalism]

The Intrapersonal Reading
Even before the With Teeth/Hesitation Marks rather blatant commentary about one Trent becoming two Trents, II've sometimes chosen to read the album solipsistically. As in the "there is no 'you,' there is only me attitude which would follow, eventually. It's a pretty natural way to interpret the LP, considering how self-involved Trent's music (excepting Year Zero) has been.

In this case...
None of the songs are really specifically directed at someone else. If you chose to take the "tried so hard to be like you" line from "Somewhat Damaged" and interpreted it as Trent trying to become like the guy he wrote the album about, it influences the way the rest of the LP plays out, even from the very next lyric ("flew too high and burnt the wing"). Lines like "the deeper the wound, I'm inside you" start to look more similar to the description of the all-knowing internal-eye/I (pun probably intended) from "Satellite" that's always going to have to be there to keep Trent's "bad"/addict half in check than they do to some "Part of me is quite literally inside you" "Closer"-style reading. "No, You Don't" becomes not about Marilyn Manson, if, indeed, it ever truly was, and fits way more naturally into the album's narrative structure. Even "Starfuckers" seems less out of place, if it's Trent's commentary on the Corrupted/Famous/Spiral Trent he turned into, and not (again) about Brian Warner.

In fact, if Trent became a machine in "The Becoming" (a song with the unbelievably phallocentric line "I beat my machine," and which is followed by another phallocentric machine-themed track—"Big Man With A Gun"), one could certainly read Spiral as an LP about becoming all hypermasculine id, the ideas of anima and animus come into play—how everyone has a masculine and feminine side. Incidentally, this makes "Closer" an even more desperate track; he's trying to get his softer side back by literally putting himself inside of something semblant of it. And "Reptile" becomes even more grotesque than it actually is.

So, oddly, if you read Spiral as such and consider The Fragile a sequel, then doing the following isn't totally insane and arbitrary: listen to all of the "she" pronouns in "The Fragile" as if he were speaking to his own "feminine" side (which, traditionally, in American culture tends to be considered as softer, more compassionate sort of deportment). Given our recent acquisition of "In Two," this isn't as much of a stretch as one might think.

[jesus]

well the note that the tracklist begins with "somewhat damaged" then the right side starting with "the way out is throught" is down after "the great below"... so is left first

[eversonpoe]

Incidentally, this makes "Closer" an even more desperate track; he's trying to get his softer side back by literally putting himself inside of something semblant of it. And "Reptile" becomes even more grotesque than it actually is.

please, please, please get involved in the NIN podcast we're doing (if you have time and are willing). i suggested doing a whole episode (or two) on gender, sex, & sexuality in NIN songs, and your interpretations are somewhat similar but definitely more involved than mine.

[Sesquipedalism]

I think these ideas would probably sound a lot better with earlier, non sequenced versions of the tracks?

Did we ever find out what Rotation was? I know Anomaly is now "TWOIT" and Stained is apparently "Underneath it All"?

This is why I take it to be a more abstract, less linear story than Spiral. I mean, for the love of god, he had to fly in a whole other person who wasn't him, who was outside of his head, who couldn't possibly grasp the intention behind each track as thoroughly as Trent himself, and let that guy put it in order. It's bound to be abstract! A collage, not a chapter book.

Departure?

Maybe not the best word? But if you consider "The Great Below" and "Underneath It All" as speaking about/to an ex-lover, he or she has clearly left. The "you and me, make it through" on "Somewhat Damaged" becomes a pretty obvious reference to the "you and me" who are in things together in, uh, "We're in This Together." And that song is exceedingly desperate. Like he knows things aren't going to last. Someone on ETS once suggested an unplugged version of the track. I argued and said that would change the entire mood. I was rebutted and suddenly saw the song in a different light. I'd never considered how hopeless that vocal sounds. Like when your relationship is clearly dying, and all of a sudden you start saying "I love you" every eight minutes.

...you could listen to the whole thing backwards, from RWD to SD.

When the reverse was suggested above, this was the first thing I thought of. I've never tried that. It doesn't work out well in my head. But who knows. I'm wrong a lot; maybe this is one of those times.

[Sesquipedalism]

This is true, but...

He created it. He gave us this album. He should most definitely get "final say" on how the journey is supposed to begin, progress and ultimately end.

With bands and authors I like, I try really hard to not even find out what they look like, much less their life circumstances. I don't want to be beholden to their images, or the stories of their lives. I had a totally different reading of Tool's "H.," then Maynard said in concert something about the old cartoons where you'd have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, and now I can barely recall how I used to relate to the song (which was very dear to me). I'm a Death Cab for Cutie fan and I was pissed when his last album came out and, even though I haven't had a TV since 2000 and I certainly don't read celebrity gossip magazines, I knew all the songs were about Zooey Deschanel. I can't even listen to "Monday Morning"; the manic pixie dreamgirl queen thing that Zooey Deschanel has become makes me want to puke.

I wrote a story about a man who ends up with a full-body tattoo. He wants it removed later in life. Someone who wanted to publish it told me they thought it would fit perfectly in their magazine's Glory of Christianity issue which, as a Hitchens-type atheist, I refused to let happen. I certainly didn't intend to create something that would fit there. But this guy gave me a two-page letter explaining how the piece is a wonderful postmodern take on baptism and Mary Magdalene, and I was fucking stunned—his interpretation made as much sense than mine did. There weren't even holes I could find to poke in it. But I'm sure as hell sticking with my interpretation.

So, I go back and forth between whether or not the author should have final say. Because sometimes their say is fucking stupid. (Although, for the record, I grew to love Maynard's redefinition of "H.") But sometimes, man, does the audience twist it into something perverse.

I would definitely not be adverse to placing Deep on Left in place of No You Dont, moving NYD to the Right disc and placing And All That Could Have Been as the Fragile's album closer.

If we're getting into this territory, then, in most cases, people seem to be trying to pull order from chaos and create a teleological (Chapter 1, Chapter 2, &c.) narrative structure. That's a whole other ballgame, but I'm certainly eager to hear the ideas and rationales of anyone who's done this thoughtfully.

[Sesquipedalism]

Huh.

That's interesting you view WITT as exceedingly desperate. I've always heard that song as not just the most defiant on the Fragile, but perhaps in his entire catalogue (until that 'Everything' abomination came along ). That was the first song he ever did where I thought "Oh man, homeboy might actually "make it through somehow" after all..."

That was sort of my original take on it, too. Then I had that conversation. And I started thinking about the piano coda that introduces the "La Mer" melody and I began to take it the way some people are taking "Black Noise"—the plucking throughout the most contented song Trent's ever put together begins to degrade and become buried by the fuzzed out guitars that are lacking through most of the LP, but were all over Spiral and Fragi. Slipping into the "La Mer" melody really sells the hopelessness of the narrator's situation for me.

It might work.

Think of the movie 'Momento': start with the album at its ugly end, and work your way backwards in time to see how the protagonist came to be 'Ripe With Decay'

That only works if you read the LP as that teleological thing I mentioned, each song being a temporally progressive chapter. I don't care for that approach to The Fragile. I can't say it's the wrong approach, but I don't love it.

[m15a]

He created it. He gave us this album. He should most definitely get "final say" on how the journey is supposed to begin, progress and ultimately end.

But as the listener, you're also free to interpret it however you wish, and however gets you through the night, so to speak.

since, as you say, interpretation is free, there's no need for a "final say" on how it should be experienced. or to put it another way, the quote from trent doesn't say how the fragile is supposed to be experienced. instead, it simply states how he supposes it will be experienced.

if you consider the vinyl and CD release to be the same work (which is a kind of interesting question because they have different audio), then the vinyl labeling suggests an ordering for the CD. if not, there are still some indications that they are ordered, but those indications are weaker than they could be.

the labeling of "left" and "right" not only suggest two different orderings but also the lack of chronological order. the labels define the position of objects or of spaces. it kind of has a strange connection to the old nin message boards, which were defined oddly by colors instead of topic. they wer just 4 equal spaces in a way.

[Sesquipedalism]

since, as you say, interpretation is free, there's no need for a "final say" on how it should be experienced. or to put it another way, the quote from trent doesn't say how the fragile is supposed to be experienced. instead, it simply states how he supposes it will be experienced.

if you consider the vinyl and CD release to be the same work (which is a kind of interesting question because they have different audio)

Different in more than the inclusion of "The New Flesh" and "10 Miles High, the lack of certain crossfades, and the extra instrumental measures on some songs to fill out space? The Fragile is the one Nine Inch Nails LP I don't own on vinyl, because they're all tragically expensive wherever I see them.

there are still some indications that they are ordered, but those indications are weaker than they could be.

In addition to the ones I mentioned in the initial post?

the labeling of "left" and "right" not only suggest two different orderings but also the lack of chronological order. the labels define the position of objects or of spaces. it kind of has a strange connection to the old nin message boards, which were defined oddly by colors instead of topic. they wer just 4 equal spaces in a way.

Like I said, the only other double LP I can currently think of (I don't doubt there are more) that's labelled in an ambiguous order is Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness. "Dawn to Dusk" and "Twilight to Starlight"; it would just depend on which part of the day you chose to start. But there's a pretty clear order there, since the last track is actually called "Farewell and Goodnight." People I've given burned copies to have, on occasion, ignored my diligently penned liner notes and treated them as two separate albums entirely. As in, when they explained their reads of it to me, it came out more like a reading of the relationship between Kid A and Amnesiac then The Wall, Disc 1 and The Wall​, Disc 2.

[Sesquipedalism]

Hmm. I can't seem to do it myself. Can a mod please change the name of this thread to 'How do you interpret "The Fragile"?' Please and thank you.

[m15a]

re: the differences in the vinyl, i only realized that just now from looking at the wiki. i had totally forgotten and don't own the vinyl either.

re: indications of ordering, i mostly meant that there may be some but i wasn't sure. i cant remember the details of the packaging, so i don't know. i think the packaging is symmetrical, correct? like the left doesn't fold over the right or vice versa.

Melon Collie actually very strongly suggests looping (or even that the blue disc is first) since the motif at the end of farewell and goodnight is also found in the first track of the pink disc. and then "tonight, tonight" follows that. plus the obvious metaphor with the cyclic day.

[Sesquipedalism]

Melon Collie actually very strongly suggests looping (or even that the blue disc is first) since the motif at the end of farewell and goodnight is also found in the first track of the pink disc. and then "tonight, tonight" follows that. plus the obvious metaphor with the cyclic day.

I'll give you the looping, but I feel like starting with "Twilight to Starlight" would be awkward. But again, that was my example of another anomaly. And I'm sure someone better versed in Pumpkins lore would be able to make a compelling argument for why one shouldn't start with "Mellon Collie."

[butter_hole]

Like I said, the only other double LP I can currently think of (I don't doubt there are more) that's labelled in an ambiguous order is Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness. "Dawn to Dusk" and "Twilight to Starlight"; it would just depend on which part of the day you chose to start.

I'm sure you despise them but the Red Hot Chili Peppers double album 'Stadium Arcadium' is divided into Jupiter and Mars, even though, again, it's obvious where the album starts and stops.

[Sesquipedalism]

I'm sure you despise them but the Red Hot Chili Peppers double album 'Stadium Arcadium' is divided into Jupiter and Mars, even though, again, it's obvious where the album starts and stops.

I don't despise them. I have a smattering of Peppers in my iTunes library. How do they make it clear which comes first?

[eversonpoe]

ani difranco - reckoning/reveling / reveling/reckoning

double disc album with physically symmetrical packaging that makes absolutely NO attempt to inform you of which disc comes first. (also a fantastic album)

[mfte]

I always found it interesting that both sides of the fragile (pretty much) end with "I can still feel you"

[goingincirclez]

Ah foo, I go to bed early/sick and wake up to find a very interesting and heavy discussion, worthy of more time than I have right now (long day at work/home ahead). I adore this album like no other and have a few ideas I want to contribute, and comments for those above, so I hope I have time to revisit this later. But I've enjoyed what I read thus far.


One somewhat stupid yet quickly-shared idea I had in the past re: "Left" and "Right" was to view the names as puns based on their synonymous meanings. In other words, perhaps "left" is the past tense form of leaving, and "right" is the present-tense verb, to "correct" the past mistake of the "left". If the discs are viewed as separate related acts (which they are, IMHO) then the past sets up the present. It's not a very eloquent theory, I admit, so quickly abandoned the idea, but as long as we're discussing things I'll just leave it here.

Hopefully I can come back to this later. But thanks for this topic and discussion nonetheless!

[chroipahtz]

I always assumed Left and Right referred to the physical locations in the packaging (which are only obvious when symmetrical due to obvious Front and Back panels). A much less interesting interpretation.

And I always wondered if there was any significance to the Left disc art having significantly less color / more white than the Right disc.

[seasonsinthesky]

if you consider the vinyl and CD release to be the same work (which is a kind of interesting question because they have different audio), then the vinyl labeling suggests an ordering for the CD. if not, there are still some indications that they are ordered, but those indications are weaker than they could be.

ah, but this is where it gets interesting — because of the differences in running order and musical segues, both the vinyl and the cassettes versions can be considered 'alternate versions' of the record. TR is quoted as saying the CD is the final running order, which is important no matter which side of the author's intention argument you're on: if his intent matters, we still have 2 different versions anyway, and if his intent doesn't matter, there are 3 differing versions of the same thing, all in equal space. the vinyl and cassette have an indicated (almost the same, save the track differences and the editing) order to listen, the CD version gives you equal choices depending on how and where you're raised, and one is no more correct than the others. this is part of the theme: The Fragile is a collection of the fragments, ordered in different ways, mostly following some kind of dream logic, or just no logic at all. it doesn't matter which order you listen in; it doesn't even matter if you listen to any songs in order, since it furthers the theme by having fragments of other songs at the beginnings and endings of each track.

[PhoenixML]

He didn't find his way.

[BenAkenobi]

I own a bootleg mp3 CD with this album among albums by different bands. And, i shit you not, they didn't include numbers in filenames!
Songs play in alphabetic order. Fortunately, i found a better source soon enough.

BTW, thanks for the cool story about Tool's H.

[frothy_ham]

I have pondered the choice of referring to the album's halves as "Left" and "Right" as opposed to "1" and "2", but to be honest, I've only ever listened to it as "Left" being the first half and finishing with "Right".

I'm also a chronic "album-listener" in that I have difficulty in just listening to a song here or there on an album (or even using shuffle at all) meaning I always tend to start at the beginning of anything and listen as far as I can until I need to stop. Then, depending on the amount of time that has gone by, I'll either start again from where I left off, or if the imaginary, undefinable time limit has run out, I'll start it over (having a little internal battle with myself) beginning the cycle anew.

The only exception of course being when I have the need to slam-dance out some stress to "The Big Comedown" after a long day of work.