Is the CD a dead medium? What is the best way to listen to music?

[neorev]

Maybe the guy doesn't like CDs and doesn't have to spend his own money to release his own music on an arbitrary format that he doesn't care for entirely to satisfy a specific group of obsessives that are never happy about almost anything he does anyways

Honestly, Nine Inch Nails is one of the first longtime bands that I know not to release a CD version and is does seem quite strange. And to be honest, I do feel it is a dumb move on Trent's part. CD is still a format people buy and the vinyl fad will fade again like it did before and you'll be left with no physical formats then. I do not want to be forced into a specific format. If you are a successful band like NIN with a dedicated fanbase, you bet your ass you can sell some CDs. Every other band I know is still selling CDs. But in the end, Trent simply doesn't care even when his vinyl mission blew up in his face. This whole experiment of vinyl only proved to me it is not worth it. Will I ever buy a record from the NIN store after this fiasco? No, never. I'd much rather a CD or Blu-ray or 24 bit digital.

Sadly, Trent has turned too corporate and listening to the wrong people. Of course Apple and other digital oriented companies will tell you that physical formats are dying because that's what they want. They are doing everything they can to destroy physical formats because it gives these companies more control over media. It still baffles me that someone like Trent who supposedly cares about quality went to a company like Apple in the first place. It feels more like a desperate latching on, especially after watching Defiant Ones.

[botley]

No offense to the NIN management but it would be good if they at least WOULD ADDRESS these issues to us.

We could wait for that, or we can make some inferences for ourselves.

First off, I suggest taking down that SILLY vinyl statement off the NIN official website.
If the fear is that things get digitized, it's not a vinyl only sale that will prevent this since you can have your LP digitize within 1 hour with, say, any decent turntable.
If the fear is that CDs will get ripped by software, this will not either prevent from content getting uploaded to whatever torrent tracker.
Also, when a digital download is offered, is even more dumb to assume that people won't put up on torrent trackers. This option is even easier and the person don't even need to rip the CD. And I've spotted 2 or 4 trackers with NIN direct downloads being seeded ad infinitum.

TR does not care about any of this and has said so repeatedly. The problem when it comes to physical media is simply (as the vinyl reissue fiasco has amply demonstrated) one of distribution. Apparently, Capitol is going to be distributing Add Violence.

1) Are we getting a NTAE EP on CD, or not?
2) Are we getting a AV EP on CD as well, because I really don't know if I can believe 100% since there is a thread going on about orders that are making buyers crazy.

If you happen to read this and be TR's cousin or distant relative, please take a picture of this post and message him. Thank you.
With all due respect.

There have never been any official announcements about Not the Actual Events coming out on CD, so until there is one, please let's just ignore all unofficial placeholder spots for it on Amazon and other retailers; just assume it isn't happening. Stream it, download it, burn it to CD-R if you want. Or don't. If you've given money to someone who has promised you a CD for this EP, ask for it back.

Add Violence is supposed to be coming out on CD in the next month via Capitol Records, and maybe other markets will pick it up too, who knows... maybe there will be an official NTAE release on CD later, too. Cool your jets until then. Self-releasing it just to get it out on some kind of fan-service timeline has proven to be a huge clusterfuck for NIN, so basically submitting to a record label release schedule is the other option, which is a bottleneck of its own kind.

Welcome to the music business in 2017.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Maybe the guy doesn't like CDs and doesn't have to spend his own money to release his own music on an arbitrary format that he doesn't care for entirely to satisfy a specific group of obsessives that are never happy about almost anything he does anyways

Buying a CD of an artist you like is "obsessive"? LMAO. I would say plunking down hundreds of dollars on vinyls for instrumental movie soundtracks that you would never listen to in a million years but because it says 'composed by Trent Reznor", you buy it, is "obsessive"

Bottom line is, whether you think CD is dying or not, every big artist still puts their music out on CD..everyone but one...

[neorev]

Buying a CD of an artist you like is "obsessive"? LMAO. I would say plunking down hundreds of dollars on vinyls for instrumental movie soundtracks that you would never listen to in a million years but because it says 'composed by Trent Reznor", you buy it, is "obsessive"

Bottom line is, whether you think CD is dying or not, every big artist still puts their music out on CD..everyone but one...

He's got a point.

[Quantum550]

I was simply makig a larger point which is that tbis entire argument of "No one else who is a major artist releases things without CDs" is totally made up. It has utterly nothing to do with anybody's quality of work. A largescale household name has done the same thing but even more extremely with zero physical tie-ins at all and was completely successful while doing so. It really doesn't matter beyond the desire to have a plastic case to sit on a shelf and stick in a car somewhere.

I got you. Your overall point was understood.
It's just that I wanted to add a personal emphasis on what I think of that kind of music.

[botley]

Didn't you get banned for talking out of your ass?

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Didn't you get banned for talking out of your ass?

So I should get banned for saying Trent should release his music on CD? LMAO okie doke...

[botley]

NIN is releasing Add Violence on CD, the press release from Capitol said it'd be out this month... which would mean most retailers should have them next week. Is there a reading comprehension problem here or are you just trolling us, again?

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

NIN is releasing Add Violence on CD, the press release from Capitol said it'd be out this month... which would mean most retailers should have them next week. Is there a reading comprehension problem here or are you just trolling us, again?

this month huh? check amazon. AV went from Sept 1 to Sept 22 to now October 13th....but if you say it will be out next week, I guess amazon is wrong.....Wanna make a deal? If AV comes out next week, I take a lifetime ban,. If it doesnt come out on Cd next week, you gladly take a lifetime ban? Deal?

[Quantum550]

Hi again.

Yes, it looks like Capitol/US will be releasing Add Violence on CD.

Problem #1: According to NIN.com it said: CD available on 1st September.
Problem #2: Trent said "I will say this as a barring act of God" (the following).
Problem #3: "We will make sure that everything that is available, gets available at NIN store first than anywhere else."
Problem #4: - it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to... -

Folk who said the 3 EPs compiled on an album, well, I can't see that happening because none of their songs relate as an album. Unless there is a magic connecting these songs I'm not aware of it yet.
Due to different artwork and packaging, it reinforces that these EPs are separate pieces and will remain that way. Actually they have more value as separate, for the collector, than compiled.

Now, on to the "reverse" tracks on SIDE B of NTAE.
I still did not understand... Are the tracks reversed as in "ORDER" (14, 13, 12) - or - you have to spin the record backwards to listen to it?
(If the last affirmative it is true Doesn't it spin the record backwards is a bit awkward and against the proper use of the turntable equipment?

I can only think that these tracks from The Downward Spiral are directed to new NIN fans. That would be a bait for me to go to this another record...

[botley]

Hi again.

Yes, it looks like Capitol/US will be releasing Add Violence on CD.

Problem #1: According to NIN.com it said: CD available on 1st September.

Yep, delays still happen even with a major label release. It may not be at every retailer in September, it may take longer for people outside North America to get them, for example. Again, this is how it goes for physical media in 2017.

All you truly fanatical CD-only guys surely have noticed as a general trend that fewer labels are releasing them in a timely manner, because there are not as many stores selling them anymore, and therefore the whole supply chain is backlogged.

Or are you just trolling?

"We will make sure that everything that is available, gets available at NIN store first than anywhere else."

Who are you quoting, here? Reznor stated that vinyl pre-orders from nin.com will ship before they are available elsewhere. That's all.

[Halo Infinity]

Maybe the guy doesn't like CDs and doesn't have to spend his own money to release his own music on an arbitrary format that he doesn't care for entirely to satisfy a specific group of obsessives that are never happy about almost anything he does anyways

I actually didn't think that I'd have any reason to bring up this particular part of this very interview until now. Trent Reznor called CDs ugly little pieces of shit, and that was back in 1994 when CDs were all the rage with absolutely no signs of slowing down yet.

However, I still actually like CDs, but also understand that, aside from what you just said, Trent is also at the stage of the career when he can simply call all sorts of shots he would've killed for back then. As for getting Not The Actual Events the way it was, there are certainly no complaints from my end. I got my physical component, and thoroughly enjoyed the download itself. Will get to Add Violence soon, but am also holding out for the CD releases as well.

And while I haven't been getting into vinyl as of late, I finally understood the angle Trent was speaking of when I examined The Downward Spiral's artwork on vinyl, and then compared the experience to going through my TDS CDs. I felt like it showed me the "bigger picture" of the presentation itself that simply can't be done on CD packaging.

http://www.theninhotline.net/archive...plazm94a.shtml

A lot of it is marketing. MTV is telling you this is what is cool. Listen to what is cool. I think that the whole situation has made music less art-y and put more emphasis on music as a product. If you buy an album today and it has two good songs on it, it's okay. Before, if you bought an album and it had two bad songs on it, well...it's still an okay album. You got your money's worth. I can't tell you how many CDs we get from bands who want to open for us, you've never heard of them so you put it on and the first song is not bad. Then, well, that one sounds like the same song, sounds like that song...with CDs you can instantly hit that little button and skip to the next track. Albums, at least, you had to go to the trouble of moving the needle. With an album you had this big piece of art, something on the inside and the vinyl. You know, it was a cool thing. CDs are ugly little pieces of shit; art's gone. What really made me think about this was discovering a few records I hadn't really listened to, like: Bowie's Low album, or Hunky Dory, Iggy Pop stuff I had missed. You take a record like Low, or Hunky Dory where every song, to me, is awesome, different and challenging. I wish I could write one song that is as good as any song on that album. Then you compare it to what is out today. I hate to think in a retro mindset. You know, "the Beatles were the best thing.." Fuck the Beatles, I hated people who were always going on about the fuckin' Beatles. They're dead. They're ugly now. Get them out of my sight. There isn't much coming out, it seems to me, that has much depth. It's based a lot on what the trend of the second is. And I realize that we are dangerously close to that same thing. Whatever.

[tremolo]

I think Trent is too busy listening to his old friends at Apple, thinking people dont buy CDs anymore..Maybe Justin Beiber or Taylor Swift fans dont buy CDs anymore but knowing how obsessive NIN fans are and how much they are into collecting, its downright idiotic to not put these EPs on CD...It makes zero sense...Its not like hes some struggling indie band or some washed up bad that hasnt sold that many records in the past decade that is cutting losses...It literally is one of the most bizarre things he has ever done, to not release these EPs on CD....so fuck it, i would have gladly paid money for the CDs..instead I will just download them for free off a torrent site and burn em to CD

I think it just doesn't make monetary sense.

It would be different if each release would sell as much as CDs used to.

We (fans) would buy them, but we are not enough people to justify the manufacture, distribution and all costs associated with it.


It's over, the ways and formats that people use to listen to music in 2017 are different. It took the music industry WAY too long to realize that.

Time to move on.

[Avarik]

The CD is a dead format. New computers omit optical drives. New vehicles omit optical drives in favor of a USB port & bluetooth.

CDs are shitty pieces of plastic with shitty limitations on duration and audio fidelity.

Trent choosing to offer hifi downloads with vinyl purchases is a great idea. You get bigger, cooler artwork on the physical component and a proper studio quality lossless audio download.

[neorev]

The CD is a dead format. New computers omit optical drives. New vehicles omit optical drives in favor of a USB port & bluetooth.

CDs are shitty pieces of plastic with shitty limitations on duration and audio fidelity.

Trent choosing to offer hifi downloads with vinyl purchases is a great idea. You get bigger, cooler artwork on the physical component and a proper studio quality lossless audio download.

Yeah, but could Trent possibly offer a separate digital option so I don't have to buy a record in order to get said digital file?

How about he pulls a Not The Actual Events and Add Violence and creates physical components for the Definitive Editions?

I'd love some artsy Fragile or Downward Spiral oriented physical component instead of a record. Trent could just print the art booklet from The Fragile vinyl on its own. I'd buy that. I just don't need a record and don't want to be forced into buying one just so I can get the 24 bit files and I don't want to be forced into going the illegal route.

[botley]

Yeah, but could Trent possibly offer a separate digital option so I don't have to buy a record in order to get said digital file?

Yes?

[neorev]

Yes?

That comment is in regards to the rest of the Definitive Editions not the EPs. Plus I DO NOT TRUST 7DIGITAL when it comes to 24 bit. I've gotten bullshit 24 bit files that were just standard 16 bit and had to fight to get a refund proving they were 16 bit and not 24 bit. A week later after e-mails and explaining file size and sending pictures I got my money back.

[ROFLRICK]

CDs are shitty pieces of plastic with shitty limitations on duration and audio fidelity.

16-44.1 is enough to capture and reproduce ANY sound that the human ear can perceive. Additionally, any preservation method that can last longer than the human lifespan (~100 years) isn't shitty. CDs are kind of the perfect medium.

That said, the files released by Trent are great, and can easily be put on CD in full redbook quality. Just use XLD, the same program Trent uses to create the MP3s we get.

[Avarik]

16-44.1 is enough to capture and reproduce ANY sound that the human ear can perceive.

This is incorrect.

Trent also knows this is incorrect because he's releasing higher fidelity files than 16-44.1.

[clarktrent]

Trent also knows this is incorrect because he's releasing higher fidelity files than 16-44.1.

Your statement is somewhat true, in a way. He's recording with the Nyquist Theorem in mind; recording at 24/88.2 to give headroom for perfect 16/44.1 compression. He's most likely releasing the master WAV files in order for fans to have a perfect archive copy that can be converted to whatever format you want without fear of a bad encoding. Or just to get audiophile placebo money.

[Avarik]

16/44 is for cell phones and earbuds, car stereos and portable bluetooth speakers.

For those with a better setup, there are hifi downloads.

[ROFLRICK]

Or just to get audiophile placebo money.

I'd take that as a certainty if these files weren't the icing on my delicious vinyl cake.

[ROFLRICK]

This is incorrect.

Trent also knows this is incorrect because he's releasing higher fidelity files than 16-44.1.

Okay, you win. You're wrong, but you win.

Trent—we're on a first name basis, as well—is offering digital files at the sample rate and bit-depth in which the work was likely recorded. 24-96, for instance is an ideal recording format because it allows the artist to capture the full breadth, width, and body of the work. To ensure the journey to Redbook standard is true.

But hey, I'm just a competent, educated recording engineer that you won't believe anyway, so I'll let someone with far more experience explain it:

From Ken Rockwell's blog:

16 bits have a signal to noise ratio of 98 dB (theoretical SNR = (bits x 6.0206) + 1.72 dB). That doesn't sound like much compared to 24 bits theoretical 146 dB, but realize that a library's background noise is about 35 dB SPL. Your house probably isn't any quieter. A full symphony orchestra giving it all it's got (ƒƒƒƒ) peaks at about 104 dB SPL. Let's give the orchestra 105 dB, and 105 dB - 35 dB = only 70 dB real dynamic range if you brought the orchestra into your home.

Even though some people can hear to 0 dB SPL, we're always hearing background noise if we shut up and listen. It takes a lot of money to build an NC 25 or NC 15 studio, in other words, a recording studio with about a 15 dB or 25 dB SPL background noise. Even in an NC 15 studio, 105 - 15 = 90 dB SPL, well within the range of real 16-bit systems, if you record it well.

Supposing we recorded on the moon in a pressurized tent with no background noise? Well, the self-noise of most recording studio microphones is about 16 dB SPL equivalent input noise, or in other words, microphones aren't any quieter than about 16 dB SPL anyway.

16 bits was chosen because it has more than enough range to hold all music. I know; I was doing 16-bit recording back in 1981 before the CD came out, and my recordings would have their levels carefully set so the loudest peak of the entire concert hit about -3 dB FS, and leaving it running after the audience left and the hall was empty, you can still bring up the playback gain and hear a perfectly silent recording of the air conditioning noise in the hall. The world just doesn't get quiet or loud enough to need more than 16 bits as a release format, if it's recorded well.

There is no such thing as a real 24-bit audio DAC or ADC. Look at the specs, and you'll never see a 144 dB SNR spec; all audio 24-bit converters do have 24 bits wiggling, but the least few LSBs are just noise. There is plenty of 24-bit and higher DSP, which is good to keep the 16-bits we need clean, but you're never getting 24 real bits of analog audio in or out of the system. It's a good thing you can't; 140 dB SPL is the threshold of instant deafness, and if you lift the gain enough to hear a real 24-bit noise floor at say 20 dB SPL in a very quiet studio, maximum output would be 20 + 144 = 164 dB SPL, or 4 dB over the threshold of death. Yes, 160 dB SPL kills.

But wait, there's more. 98 dB is the theoretical SNR. With dither, we still can hear pure undistorted signals down into the noise for at least another 10 or 20 dB. While a typical real-world 16-bit system's SNR might be 92 dB, we can hear tones down to -100 dB FS easily. That's over 100 dB of dynamic range in real 16-bit systems.

There's even more than that! By the 1990s, people learned how to "noise shape" the dither to push it up mostly to 15 kHz and above, so it became much less audible, but just as effective as regular dither. These systems made the noise much less audible.

These systems are also called Super Bit Mapping (SBM) by Sony and UV22 by Apogee; they claimed 22-bit effective SNRs with 16-bit systems. They didn't really work that well, but they did make our 16-bit system even better than it was. These clever sorts of dither are still used today for 16-bit releases.

That's right: done right, 16 bits is way, way more than enough for any sort of music. Once you've heard it done right, you'll realize any noise you here out of a CD is due to sloppy recordings (usually sloppy level settings someplace in the chain), not the CD medium itself. GIGO as you computer guys say

44.1 kilosamples per second (ksps or "kHz") is plenty for the 20 kHz audio band today, but it was much tougher in 1982.

In 1982, it was difficult to build great analog (LRC) anti-alias filters that could pass 20 kHz well and stop anything above 22.05 kHz equally well for both recording and for playback, which led to the creation of companies like Apogee whose first products were improved versions of these filters.

In 1982, processing all this data was a bear; PCs barely ran at about the same clock rate as the data rate of a CD!

In the next few years, oversampling converters and DSP made these anti-alias filters excellent and inexpensive, so the problem of iffy filters went away. We record and play at higher sample rates in production, and to release at 44.1 ksps isn't a problem. In fact, I've measured my iPod with flat response all the way to 22 kHz from 44.1ksps sources; the old filter problems are long gone.

[seasonsinthesky]

Trent—we're on a first name basis, as well—is offering digital files at the sample rate and bit-depth in which the work was likely recorded. 24-96, for instance is an ideal recording format because it allows the artist to capture the full breadth, width, and body of the work.

Nuances will be corrected, I'm sure, but they did everything on an ancient (nowadays!) Pro Tools rig to ADAT. There is no way anything was at 96k upon recording. The first album demonstrably recorded at 96 is With Teeth, and they subsequently dropped to 48k starting with the first HTDA or thereabouts.

[GulDukat]

The CD is a dead format. New computers omit optical drives. New vehicles omit optical drives in favor of a USB port & bluetooth.

CDs are shitty pieces of plastic with shitty limitations on duration and audio fidelity.

Trent choosing to offer hifi downloads with vinyl purchases is a great idea. You get bigger, cooler artwork on the physical component and a proper studio quality lossless audio download.

CDs sound just fine, take up less space a hifi download with a vinyl is only a great idea if you own a turntable. Release new music on both record and CD, it's really that simple. I don't have any stats but I would be willing to bet CDs outsell records.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

CD is a dead format? So hardcore music fans collect all their music on computers and iphones now?...I guess Joy Division and Cure fans wanna bust out those apple song lists when they wanna listen to Unknown Pleasures or Disintegration....collecting music on computers and iphones etc will be dead within 5 years. Hardcore music fans will take over and demand physical product again. record stores will thrive....at least thats my fantasy....sucks whats happened to technology (movies 2)..oh the memories of hanging out in video stores and record stores for hours as a kid

[ninsp]

CD is a dead format? So hardcore music fans collect all their music on computers and iphones now?...I guess Joy Division and Cure fans wanna bust out those apple song lists when they wanna listen to Unknown Pleasures or Disintegration....collecting music on computers and iphones etc will be dead within 5 years. Hardcore music fans will take over and demand physical product again. record stores will thrive....at least thats my fantasy....sucks whats happened to technology (movies 2)..oh the memories of hanging out in video stores and record stores for hours as a kid

Collect vinyl for physical.
Digital files for everything else.
CD is a dead terrible format.

[implanted_microchip]

In one page the discussion has now moved from "He should just release a CD because we like them and how dare you imply some people are too demanding and always unsatisfied, people who buy vinyl are idiots, our wants aren't obsessive, this request isn't niche" to "No one will be using digital files in five years, record stores will be dominant again, we're the true hardcore fans, and why isn't everything available in the very specific niche version of a format that I want it in at all times forever and always, even if it's almost exactly the same as the other version it's available in."

[botley]

Help Me I Am A Troll

[Swykk]

Forget for one minute that CDs sound better than vinyl when mastered properly (STOP with the warmer sound schtick. Your weird beard grows three sizes when you try that inane argument).

Here's why I do and will always prefer CDs: They are smaller and easier to store. I have every available NIN release on CD (among hundreds of other CDs) so this is my preferred method of collection that I have invested in. I can listen to an entire CD on the go or rip the files on to my computer and throw them on my phone. I don't have to sit in a room with an outdated cumbersome record player to hear an album. I work, I go out with friends...I don't have the time. And yes, not to beat a dead horse and kick the hornet's nest (again) but I believe vinyl is the dead format that hipsters revived and now it's just accepted. Even I accept it more than I used to. I used to be a lot angrier about it but now it's more of a "Whatever you are into is fine. Knock yourselves out. It's not hurting me." Except now it kind of is. What's troubling is that TR seems to be anti CD now which sucks for me and other fans who really would like to buy things like the new EPs (which yes, I preordered on amazon but keep getting emails telling me they're delayed) and ESPECIALLY Fragile: Deviations, which wasn't even an option.

You vinyl folks get to have your niche.

Should those of us who prefer CDs for one or all of the reasons listed above just go fuck ourselves and start our collections over? No fucking way. Especially for a format that simply isn't a trade up.