Trump 2017: Year Zero

[Louie_Cypher]

I saw something I can only say was "fucking nuts" they asked trump supports to grade him so far, to my shock and dismay they all gave him an A or higher it was like some weird collective battered wives syndrome, with statements like "he can change," give him a chance "it won't happen again, i think America's are very low information, if it doesn't directly effect them they could care less, i don't think the average American understands the Russian "hack" how it works or why it's important, not much that Putin is a self installed dictator who been in power for 18 years and is currently imprisoning or killing any opposition to his power, not much less Brexit, elections in France, Syrian, NATO is, falling apart Syrian refugee crisis, as well as Russian occupation in Ukraine, chimera, involvement on in Turkey, Syria, Venezuela, north Korea's resent nuke testing, I think some of it is Information overload, especially after the press did such a piss poor job on the Iraqi invasion, I have to follow this stuff because it's how I make my coin it would be kind of like asking you what's the deal with the price difference between fruit- loops and reason in something not longer than a tweet, sorry for the long winded rant, I just hope people wake up before something really bad happens or god forbid we start "shipbuilding" again
-Louie

[GulDukat]

Our Dishonest President:
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-e...est-president/

From the LA Times editorial board.

[Louie_Cypher]

his whole whole life has been one big lie scam

-Louie

[theimage13]

This is what scares me: he's clueless. He clearly speaks the way a gawky teenager who didn't do the assigned reading speaks when he / she is trying to bullshit their way through a book report. I genuinely believe that he is not competent enough to hold this office - regardless of whether you agree with his ideologies or not. He's clueless. He's struggling day to day to figure out just enough of what's going on to survive another 24 hours. This isn't funny. This is frightening.

"If China is not going to solve North Korea, we will. That is all I am telling you," he said in an interview with UK paper Financial Times.Pressed on whether he thought he could succeed alone, he replied: "Totally."
-----
Asked if he meant "one-on-one" unilateral action, Mr Tiny Hands said: "I don't have to say any more. Totally."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39475178

[Jinsai]

This is what scares me: he's clueless. He clearly speaks the way a gawky teenager who didn't do the assigned reading speaks when he / she is trying to bullshit their way through a book report. I genuinely believe that he is not competent enough to hold this office - regardless of whether you agree with his ideologies or not. He's clueless. He's struggling day to day to figure out just enough of what's going on to survive another 24 hours. This isn't funny. This is frightening

Oh man........

One of the most dangerous things about Trump is his lack of tact, but this is crazy. As if his idiotic tweets weren't terrifying evidence enough, we're dealing with someone who doesn't understand that he is no longer a private citizen.

[Dra508]

This is what scares me: he's clueless. He clearly speaks the way a gawky teenager who didn't do the assigned reading speaks when he / she is trying to bullshit their way through a book report. I genuinely believe that he is not competent enough to hold this office - regardless of whether you agree with his ideologies or not. He's clueless. He's struggling day to day to figure out just enough of what's going on to survive another 24 hours. This isn't funny. This is frightening.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39475178[/FONT][/COLOR]

He is playing his presidency like his marketed himself and his stuff all his life: sound bites that take you through a commercial break. "Up next, nuclear war....after the break....totally"

[Louie_Cypher]

considering he gets his marching orders from fox and brietbart you should be afraid... very afraid
-Louie

[allegro]

Oh SHIT!

The clip I saw was edited to make it seem like he was pissed off, but watching that it looks like he just ... forgot.

Duh

He's also starting to look older and more haggard, the job's getting to him and it hasn't even been 90 days.

[Louie_Cypher]

he got enough diversion tactics to last out the year if the country will last is another question
-Louie

[elevenism]

The clip I saw was edited to make it seem like he was pissed off, but watching that it looks like he just ... forgot.

Duh

He's also starting to look older and more haggard, the job's getting to him and it hasn't even been 90 days.

I'm not sure which is more possibility is more frightening. :/

[Louie_Cypher]

people forget he is the oldest president to take office
-Louie

[hellospaceboy]

How long into Pence's presidency before Dems wish they had Trump back?

I have this conversation/argument with my fellow democrats quite often. I do believe Pence would be easier to manage (he has none of Trump's charisma and celebrity power to get away with shit) and he's less likely to start WWIII with a tweet he didn't mean/understand. He would be another Bush W, which is not great, but a strange upgrade from Trump.

[Louie_Cypher]

pay attention people https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...paper-chechnya
-Louie

[implanted_microchip]

Pence would probably be more efficient at getting his goals achieved but would also be a lot easier to defeat and would have far less of a cult of personality built around defending him. There is no "good" option here. We're stuck with this lunatic or we're stuck with a classically terrible conservative. Bare minimum I think a lot of people's blood pressure would be lower if it were Pence and that's enough for many to feel he'd be a better alternative -- things would be shit, but day to day life wouldn't feel so blisteringly and anxiously apocalyptic and overwhelming.

[theimage13]

How long into Pence's presidency before Dems wish they had Trump back?

For starters, we'll never have a President Pence (not unless he runs in another campaign). But even if we did, he'd be better than what we have now. Sure, he's a hyper-religious nutcase who vehemently opposes women's rights, but then Trump is basically the same, only to a higher degree and with a complete lack of comprehension of what's going on around him. Pence is less likely to spark an international incident. Pence is less likely to start one or more long-term wars that will result in both the needless deaths of American soldiers as well as civilian casualties abroad and an increased international desire to murder us. And Pence, no matter how bat-shit crazy his ideas are, can at least speak in a manner that doesn't make me want to burn the newspaper before I've even put it down.

[Louie_Cypher]

so what's the excuse for not releasing his 2016 taxes impossible to be under audit
-Louie

[raptors661]

so what's the excuse for not releasing his 2016 taxes impossible to be under audit
-Louie

Because he has so much incriminating evidence to hide.

[Jinsai]

so what's the excuse for not releasing his 2016 taxes impossible to be under audit
-Louie

This needs to keep being addressed... like "if you want this to end, this whole Russia thing, just show us your fucking tax returns... just show them. You've said you have nothing to hide, well, show us..."

He won't though, because even if this whole Russia thing is a bullshit red herring (unlikely), there's something in there he doesn't want us to see.

[Jinsai]

How long into Pence's presidency before Dems wish they had Trump back?

All of Pence's shitty priorities are already being represented through proposed legislation and executive order. The difference is, when a VP is handed the presidency, he works within a construct where it's UNDERSTOOD that there is no mandate there. Pence would be a hold-over president, just like in the one example we have of an ousted president.

Maybe, hopefully, he'd play his cards carefully not to be remembered as a remnant of a travesty presidency? I don't know, but I do know he at least is a professional politician, who understands overreach and the consequences of it.

[elevenism]

I really can't believe that a POTUS has been accused of colluding with Russia. I don't understand how we got here.
As I've said before, I've pretty much been covering my eyes and ears since last November and am only now starting to take tentative peeks at the news. From where I'm sitting, this shit already looks about 100 times as bad as Watergate. I mean, holy shit, am I missing something?

So how are Trump supporters spinning this? Are they calling it a liberal conspiracy?

[theimage13]

So how are Trump supporters spinning this? Are they calling it a liberal conspiracy?

Some of them are, like you, covering their eyes and ears and pretending that none of this has even happened.
Many of them are, as you said, calling it a liberal conspiracy
Some of them are just pretending that people opposed to him are simply sore losers ("the libtard snowflake fags are just sad that Obummer left them")
Some of them have actually claimed regretting their vote, but still insist that "Hilary remains the worst candidate and Johnson wasn't even a real contender")

In other words...most of them - the ones who have actually spoken up in support of Trump to this day - are kind of idiots.

I think the ones who genuinely regret it and realize they've made a massive mistake are keeping quiet, for fear of being mercilessly ridiculed, and they're not wrong to feel that way. I've seen very few rational threads of people saying "I'm glad you've realized how bad this is, now here's how you can help" and far more "NO SHIT FUCKHEAD WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GONNA HAPPEN NO SYMPATHY MORON". If we want people who have turned on their Trump support to be vocal about it, we need to stop shitting on them and offering them respectful dialog and productive ideas.

[Jinsai]

Some of them are, like you, covering their eyes and ears and pretending that none of this has even happened.
Many of them are, as you said, calling it a liberal conspiracy
Some of them are just pretending that people opposed to him are simply sore losers ("the libtard snowflake fags are just sad that Obummer left them")
Some of them have actually claimed regretting their vote, but still insist that "Hilary remains the worst candidate and Johnson wasn't even a real contender")

In other words...most of them - the ones who have actually spoken up in support of Trump to this day - are kind of idiots.

I think the ones who genuinely regret it and realize they've made a massive mistake are keeping quiet, for fear of being mercilessly ridiculed, and they're not wrong to feel that way. I've seen very few rational threads of people saying "I'm glad you've realized how bad this is, now here's how you can help" and far more "NO SHIT FUCKHEAD WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GONNA HAPPEN NO SYMPATHY MORON". If we want people who have turned on their Trump support to be vocal about it, we need to stop shitting on them and offering them respectful dialog and productive ideas.

yeah, sure. Though right now, even the Trump-voter relatives I have who have confessed to regretting their vote aren't willing to admit that this is SUPER fucked up. It's always "it will work out fine in the end... and then maybe we'll get a sensible conservative in the Oval Office." They don't get it yet. It's hard to respond to that with "I'm glad you've realized you voted for the fucking worst president of all time, but let's be sensible now with you talking about just voting down the party-line again in the future" without screaming until your eyes bleed.

[Louie_Cypher]

yeah, sure. Though right now, even the Trump-voter relatives I have who have confessed to regretting their vote aren't willing to admit that this is SUPER fucked up. It's always "it will work out fine in the end... and then maybe we'll get a sensible conservative in the Oval Office." They don't get it yet. It's hard to respond to that with "I'm glad you've realized you voted for the fucking worst president of all time, but let's be sensible now with you talking about just voting down the party-line again in the future" without screaming until your eyes bleed.

his supporters will continue to defend him and think he's great it's great and politics the latest "reality show" I think the Russian's knew this and did not try and not try to hide there attempts, the "intelligence" has said repeatedly the attack was "noisy" i think the was two fold one once to show to show they have a deep understanding of American culture and habits such getting news from twitter and face-book, and attacking" western western "concepts" such as "free press" and "democracy" pushing existing divisions and maybe even pushing */gulp/* towards civil war just because Putin didn't pound his shoe in the middle of a U.N. meeting and scream"We will bury you", doesn't mean that sentiment isn't there a lot of this old time KGB CIA and military types long for the good ole days of a overt cold war just my observations
-Louie

[allegro]

Trump's Tweets are quoting and recommending Fox & Friends and the "story" about Podesta and alleged ties to Russia.

And he's backed up by Newt Gingrich claiming that "All 'Real Evidence' of Russian Influence Points to Democrats."

And they are believing right-wing news reports indicating that Nunes' "Report Vindicates Trump Claims on Surveillance."

So, no, there is no reason for Trump supporters to believe that Trump or his team have done anything wrong, because they're not watching or reading the same reports and news as you.

[Louie_Cypher]

again i believe the Russians knew this in terms of American culture political divisions were and how we received our news the fact that Trump was a huge twitter user or would view or have major right wing media players in his cabinet, as the beasty boy's once said, put a "quarter in our ass because, we just might have just played ourselves" food for thought,
-Louie

[Jinsai]

And they are believing right-wing news reports indicating that Nunes' "Report Vindicates Trump Claims on Surveillance."

So, no, there is no reason for Trump supporters to believe that Trump or his team have done anything wrong, because they're not watching or reading the same reports and news as you.

I got into a back and forth with a Trump supporter on Twitter who was trying to claim that about the Nunes thing. I posted a couple links to stories that broke it down further, with relation to criticism of Nunes' decision to go public before consulting the committee, and with regards to the dubious intent of the potential source of his info, and my links were deleted and I was blocked.

I think they're aware of the counter point... they just plug their ears when it's presented. They're aware of it, they just don't want to hear it, because all they want is confirmation bias. Many on the left are guilty of the same thing, but not on anywhere near the same scale.

[allegro]

I got into a back and forth with a Trump supporter on Twitter who was trying to claim that about the Nunes thing. I posted a couple links to stories that broke it down further, with relation to criticism of Nunes' decision to go public before consulting the committee, and with regards to the dubious intent of the potential source of his info, and my links were deleted and I was blocked.

I think they're aware of the counter point... they just plug their ears when it's presented. They're aware of it, they just don't want to hear it, because all they want is confirmation bias. Many on the left are guilty of the same thing, but not on anywhere near the same scale.

They are "aware" of counterpoints but, for them, it's all just more of the same "conspiracy" that ignores how there is a "witch hunt" that is attempting to hurt Trump.

In other words, turn it around to Clinton and a private email server and Russians hacking her emails, and back then those same people said "Clinton is a liar, she is hiding something, where are her (private) deleted emails? She should not have been allowed to do that" and if we said "but, she wasn't found guilty of anything" they would say "because the FBI and the White House colluded to protect her but she's still guilty" etc. They always have a counterpoint that (in their minds) completely justifies their stance.

Just like we do. Except we always think we're on the side of logic; but so do they.

It's a winless argument.

Their "counterpoint" makes zero sense to us, and our "counterpoint" makes zero sense to them. And it's useless attempting to convince them, just like it's useless for them to try to convince us.

And each side thinks they're totally right.

[Jinsai]

Just like we do. Except we always think we're on the side of logic; but so do they.

It's a winless argument.

Yep, confirmation bias is a hell of a drug, but I actually did look at the claims regarding the "bombshell scandal" contained in the leaked Clinton emails... and I found pretty much nothing that would concern me beyond what I would consider political maneuvering in general. I looked into the claims regarding pay-to-play scandals, I read stories from both sides of the aisle. When Breitbart or Fox drag up a huge scandal, I'll get the summary, look at what the sources are, and then research the claim.

There are liberals who exclusively get their news from OccupyDemocrats and, when they're feeling like branching out a bit, Huffington Post. Those people also won't do too well in a debate... but I see a fundamental difference. When I see someone spouting a bullshit talking point like "Trump plagiarized his inauguration speech from Avatar!" they get corrected by people on the same side of the political aisle. These outlandish claims generally get addressed and shot down.

Meanwhile, there's still people out there claiming that #Pizzagate bullshit is legit.

[allegro]

Those people also won't do too well in a debate.

These are not intelligent and thought-out debates. Real debate is researched, unbiased, and balanced, conducted by intelligent people.

No intelligent person buys into any ridiculous conspiracy theory or any theory or idea that isn't based on at least some evidence or logic, discounting "internet" evidence.

Nobody conversing on the Internet is ever really "corrected," nor do many of them WANT to be.

We pretty much arrive with our minds made up. We don't suddenly turn from liberal to conservative. We may learn some things along the way but the basic person and opinions are deep-seated.

These #pizzagate believers really believe that there are exploited children out there who aren't being protected, and they believe that somehow law enforcement, the FBI, everybody overlooks this stuff openly occurring in a Washington DC pizza restaurant, and while it contains zero logic and no evidence beyond made-up "code words" in Podesta emails, that's enough for them to convince themselves and others like them that the problem is SO insidious it is a huge secret and coverup that will never be called out unless THEY rescue the sex-trafficked kids. They alone "know" and everybody else is "uninformed" or are co-conspirators.

And most of us, here, tend to believe the evidence presented, so far, that the Russians did attempt to influence our election, and have done or are doing so in other countries, and we can point to the opinions of intel agencies as "evidence." But, the Trump supporters and #pizzagate people believe that the intel agencies are a part of a "shadow government" consisting of Obama, Clinton, Jarrett, Podesta, etc. who are controlling not only intel agencies and investigations but also our armed forces.

Yeah, it's that nuts.

And, they have their own "science" that they insist is better and more logical than actual science.

For instance, re Climate Change: G has a cousin in Texas who asserted, recently, on FaceBook, that the rising of sea levels is due to more ships in the oceans and it's like putting ice cubes in a glass and the water rises in a glass due to water displacement, so rising sea levels are really evidence of water displacement due to more ships in the ocean. And if you try to argue the "real" reason, per scientists, he will argue that scientists only assert their argument of "climate change" in order to get lots of grant money for studies.

And you should just give up, at that point, because the only thing he hears is: "liberals are crazy conspiracy-theorists who run around the internet trying to make a big deal over nothing."

And nobody is ever going to change his (stupid) ideas.


We live in a world where Shaq recently joked that the Earth is FLAT because he drove from Florida to California and he never went uphill, and there are a ton of people out there who believed that he represents a bunch of really stupid flat-Earth people. We're so polarized, now, and there are so many genuinely stupid people out there, we don't even know when a joke is a joke.

[Jinsai]

We pretty much arrive with our minds made up. We don't suddenly turn from liberal to conservative. We may learn some things along the way but the basic person and opinions are deep-seated.

Well, I have convinced some people to actually look at unbiased reports and reconsider their stance... not the completely crazy people, but people in the middle of the road who just don't know what to believe anymore. This is a new era of weaponized misinformation. Actually, I've even disabused some people of wild conspiracy theories.

Also, whether or not they admit it out loud, people do change their minds. Polls are showing Trump at a 35% approval rating now? Nobody likes to admit "Oh shit, I was completely wrong about something that I was very passionate about, and it was about something incredibly serious." Still, I've reconsidered my stance on a lot of things through debate. Even on this board, I've changed the way I think about issues based on counter arguments, some of them with regards to issues that aren't minor bullshit.

And nobody is ever going to change his (stupid) ideas.

Maybe not him, but scientific predictions have a way of changing people's minds when they come true, especially if it impacts them personally at that point. That goes all along the board, not just when it involves a scientific conclusion. A pro war family might change their mind about the justifiability of a conflict they were previously supportive of when their son comes home in a body bag. Homophobic parents tend to soften their bigotry when their child comes out of the closet. Not always, of course, but stark reality hitting home has a way of dispelling notions that people pretended to have an opinion on.

That's the thing, a lot of political fervor is really just something like being passionate about a sports team - something that is ultimately so surface-level unimportant will get people to physically fight each other. Most people weigh in on the most basic level when it comes to politics: "how much is this going to cost me?" Maybe there are some people out there who truly believe that illegal immigration from Mexico is stealing all the jobs... but I bet if Trump said, plainly, "Just so you all know, this border wall is going to cost a lot of money, and it's going to come at the expense of your children's education, and probably end up hitting your wallet too in the end," they might get over that fantasy pretty quick.

Trump did this insane-sounding speech today at North American Building Trades Union conference. He went off on this "you guys are the backbone of America" type gesture... He literally just started listing off jobs and then rated the crowd's applause. "Fitters!" YAY!!!! "Plumbers!" YAY!!!! "Operators!" YAY!!! "Brick Layers!" OMG YES!!!! "Elevator Constructors!" YAAAAAAA!!!!!!! "Boiler Makers!!!" YAAY! "Electricians!" Yeah... "Oh come on, let's hear it for the electricians!!!" YAYYY!

Like all the people in that crowd were seriously concerned about the workplace trials of elevator constructors, or thought that Trump really gave a shit about them and was planning on doing something to make their lives better. Just like how there's all these people who are suddenly terribly concerned about the disappearing coal industry, and how it was terrible that all these people were going to lose their jobs. That's not their world, but "don't you dare tell me that I don't deeply value coal as an awesome energy source or care about coal jobs! That's traitor talk!"

But I did hear an interesting interview on the radio a while back, with a coal miner who originally supported Trump, but then changed his mind when he went through with his stated plan to get rid of the ACA, which he relied on after developing a lung condition from working in the coal mines. He admitted that he didn't really believe that Trump cared about them, he just liked to hear his job get a thumbs-up from a politician.

When reality sets in, people can't choose which facts they want to believe anymore, and at that point you either change your mind or go completely batshit crazy. The droves of Trump supporters who were shocked that he actually was intending to take away their health care are proof of that. Then again, some of these people who so passionately hated 'Obamacare' never even looked into it enough to find out that they actually relied on it.

Plenty of people also do tend to reconsider things at least once in their life. Most atheists aren't raised to hold that belief. My family is pretty conservative, made me get confirmed at church, and sent me to religious grade and high schools. I didn't really have an opinion on politics until I moved out after high school. I'd imagine that's a re-evaluation point for a lot of people, but now I'm the atheist liberal hippie in my family.

I hope Trump doesn't blatantly fuck everything up as badly as I fear he's going to, but maybe after he does, some of these people will actually realize that they'd (at the very least) misplaced their support. Maybe a few of them will even go so far as to question some of their other beliefs. Who knows...