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Thread: Is the CD a dead medium? What is the best way to listen to music?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avarik View Post
    16/44 is for cell phones and earbuds, car stereos and portable bluetooth speakers.

    For those with a better setup, there are hifi downloads.
    While it's true that humans can perceive up to 144db of dynamic range and 16 bit audio can only provide up to 120db while 24 bit can produce up to 144db, the fact is that the even some of the best recordings available only have around 96db of dynamic range. Unless the track has unbelievably good dynamics and you're listening in a perfect environment, usually with around 50 decibels or more of noise cancellation, you won't be able to tell a difference.

    24bit for recording is perfect as it provides enough headroom and has universal compatibility unlike 32bit, which has an extremely large footprint along with being seldom supported by audio interfaces, but unless you're listening to a very badly encoded file, 24bit audio is basically pointless for playback. "Hi-res audio" is nothing more than a money making scheme by labels and distributors, headphone manufacturers, audiophile amp/DAC peddlers, as well as corporations like Sony and others in the audio business.
    Last edited by clarktrent; 09-11-2017 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avarik View Post
    16/44 is for cell phones and earbuds, car stereos and portable bluetooth speakers.

    For those with a better setup, there are hifi downloads.
    16/44 is the redbook standard that @Quantum550 holds in such high regard

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarktrent View Post
    24bit for recording is perfect as it provides enough headroom and has universal compatibility unlike 32bit, which has an extremely large footprint along with being seldom supported by audio interfaces, but unless you're listening to a very badly encoded file, 24bit audio is basically pointless for playback. "Hi-res audio" is nothing more than a money making scheme by labels and distributors, headphone manufacturers, audiophile amp/DAC peddlers, as well as corporations like Sony and others in the audio business.
    The only thing I've noticed as a bedroom producer is that the 24 bit and 32 bit settings, aside from magic dynamic range that I never use, seem to allow for more complicated MIDI and DSP signals to be sent to any software synths or plugins without errors (and I don't mean nearly impossible for an average person like me to calculate bit errors – I mean general overloading of the data being sent that seems to cause dropouts/glitches in the audio signal, resulting in missed notes if many, many tracks are going at once). But so much of the audiophile stuff is based on very complicated math that few people are trained in, lots of physical variables that may have nothing to do with the actual frequencies, and the placebo effect, that the absolute certainty of people who are committed to the audiophile life just baffles me. I've downloaded 96 kHz files for fun to discover that the the higher inaudible frequencies consist entirely of noise. Most of the DE files contain no data above the CD frequency range, are vastly more compressed, have less bass, or are more distorted, and people love 'em. Subjectivity is a weird world!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eversonpoe View Post
    16/44 is the redbook standard that @Quantum550 holds in such high regard
    Thank you.
    Yes I hold high regard for this because it is mathematically enough.
    Hi-Res downloads are placebo and a money bait.
    No human being has done any ABX on Hi-Res against RedBook on the SAME EXACT source.
    You will fail all tries. There is no need for Hi-Res.
    Hi-Res is only acceptable in the phase of processing the master audio. That is it only. But never as a final product.
    One of the reasons is that you would probably never guess in a blind test which source would be which one.

    Please, those praising HD and Vinyl, let's "[O]Nescience"
    http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php...=Myths_(Vinyl)
    It's a long read and a myth killer.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pbgut View Post
    Most of the DE files contain no data above the CD frequency range, are vastly more compressed, have less bass, or are more distorted, and people love 'em. Subjectivity is a weird world!
    God, thank you, I thought I was the only one! Compare the DE remaster of March of the Pigs to the original CD release, in the new version you can barely make out the cymbals at the beginning of the track whereas in the '94 master you can almost hear the echo of the room it was recorded in!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avarik View Post
    This is incorrect.

    Trent also knows this is incorrect because he's releasing higher fidelity files than 16-44.1.
    Okay, you win. You're wrong, but you win.

    Trent—we're on a first name basis, as well—is offering digital files at the sample rate and bit-depth in which the work was likely recorded. 24-96, for instance is an ideal recording format because it allows the artist to capture the full breadth, width, and body of the work. To ensure the journey to Redbook standard is true.

    But hey, I'm just a competent, educated recording engineer that you won't believe anyway, so I'll let someone with far more experience explain it:

    From Ken Rockwell's blog:

    16 bits have a signal to noise ratio of 98 dB (theoretical SNR = (bits x 6.0206) + 1.72 dB). That doesn't sound like much compared to 24 bits theoretical 146 dB, but realize that a library's background noise is about 35 dB SPL. Your house probably isn't any quieter. A full symphony orchestra giving it all it's got (ƒƒƒƒ) peaks at about 104 dB SPL. Let's give the orchestra 105 dB, and 105 dB - 35 dB = only 70 dB real dynamic range if you brought the orchestra into your home.

    Even though some people can hear to 0 dB SPL, we're always hearing background noise if we shut up and listen. It takes a lot of money to build an NC 25 or NC 15 studio, in other words, a recording studio with about a 15 dB or 25 dB SPL background noise. Even in an NC 15 studio, 105 - 15 = 90 dB SPL, well within the range of real 16-bit systems, if you record it well.

    Supposing we recorded on the moon in a pressurized tent with no background noise? Well, the self-noise of most recording studio microphones is about 16 dB SPL equivalent input noise, or in other words, microphones aren't any quieter than about 16 dB SPL anyway.

    16 bits was chosen because it has more than enough range to hold all music. I know; I was doing 16-bit recording back in 1981 before the CD came out, and my recordings would have their levels carefully set so the loudest peak of the entire concert hit about -3 dB FS, and leaving it running after the audience left and the hall was empty, you can still bring up the playback gain and hear a perfectly silent recording of the air conditioning noise in the hall. The world just doesn't get quiet or loud enough to need more than 16 bits as a release format, if it's recorded well.

    There is no such thing as a real 24-bit audio DAC or ADC. Look at the specs, and you'll never see a 144 dB SNR spec; all audio 24-bit converters do have 24 bits wiggling, but the least few LSBs are just noise. There is plenty of 24-bit and higher DSP, which is good to keep the 16-bits we need clean, but you're never getting 24 real bits of analog audio in or out of the system. It's a good thing you can't; 140 dB SPL is the threshold of instant deafness, and if you lift the gain enough to hear a real 24-bit noise floor at say 20 dB SPL in a very quiet studio, maximum output would be 20 + 144 = 164 dB SPL, or 4 dB over the threshold of death. Yes, 160 dB SPL kills.

    But wait, there's more. 98 dB is the theoretical SNR. With dither, we still can hear pure undistorted signals down into the noise for at least another 10 or 20 dB. While a typical real-world 16-bit system's SNR might be 92 dB, we can hear tones down to -100 dB FS easily. That's over 100 dB of dynamic range in real 16-bit systems.

    There's even more than that! By the 1990s, people learned how to "noise shape" the dither to push it up mostly to 15 kHz and above, so it became much less audible, but just as effective as regular dither. These systems made the noise much less audible.

    These systems are also called Super Bit Mapping (SBM) by Sony and UV22 by Apogee; they claimed 22-bit effective SNRs with 16-bit systems. They didn't really work that well, but they did make our 16-bit system even better than it was. These clever sorts of dither are still used today for 16-bit releases.

    That's right: done right, 16 bits is way, way more than enough for any sort of music. Once you've heard it done right, you'll realize any noise you here out of a CD is due to sloppy recordings (usually sloppy level settings someplace in the chain), not the CD medium itself. GIGO as you computer guys say

    44.1 kilosamples per second (ksps or "kHz") is plenty for the 20 kHz audio band today, but it was much tougher in 1982.

    In 1982, it was difficult to build great analog (LRC) anti-alias filters that could pass 20 kHz well and stop anything above 22.05 kHz equally well for both recording and for playback, which led to the creation of companies like Apogee whose first products were improved versions of these filters.

    In 1982, processing all this data was a bear; PCs barely ran at about the same clock rate as the data rate of a CD!

    In the next few years, oversampling converters and DSP made these anti-alias filters excellent and inexpensive, so the problem of iffy filters went away. We record and play at higher sample rates in production, and to release at 44.1 ksps isn't a problem. In fact, I've measured my iPod with flat response all the way to 22 kHz from 44.1ksps sources; the old filter problems are long gone.


  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarktrent View Post
    Or just to get audiophile placebo money.
    I'd take that as a certainty if these files weren't the icing on my delicious vinyl cake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarktrent View Post
    God, thank you, I thought I was the only one! Compare the DE remaster of March of the Pigs to the original CD release, in the new version you can barely make out the cymbals at the beginning of the track whereas in the '94 master you can almost hear the echo of the room it was recorded in!
    I know I don't want to be too negative on here, since it goes against the whole spirit of the place but I think there is some positivity to be found in affirming that the original versions sound great, and are amazing records, and that they have suffered from this particular round of mastering. Broken and TDS, which I didn't purchase since I already have an old TDS vinyl, in particular now sound like second-generation copies taped off a radio, in terms of the sounds lost to such extreme limiting. (The Fragile mostly sounds fine? I only noticed a huge loss with "10 Miles High," but that song has a lot of dynamic range originally, so I'm not surprised it got smashed.) I am pretty weirdly obsessive about sound and music compared to most people I've met, and I heard these albums probably way too much, so I don't always know what people are picking up on if they prefer these versions to the original. On a couple of other post-Interscope vinyl NIN releases, it seems as if the treble had to be cut due to how limited and distorted it is not sure if the TDS DE vinyl suffers from this but I wouldn't be surprised.

    I'm not sure why he wouldn't use a proper vinyl master (since the whole master would have to be reduced to prevent the problems with higher frequencies). The verses on Broken and TDS are, due to the limiting, much louder, making certain details "clearer," in some sense, but the loud choruses are unbearably distorted. It amounts to a very strange remix of the albums due to how important the loud/soft dynamic was to the originals; now it's just kind of loud/distorted loud. Again - I don't get it, but to each their own!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haysey View Post
    I for one can't wait for the Mini Disc resurgence...only me? Ah well.
    I recently completed a project to rip all my MDs (digitally) and afterwards, with a heavy heart, I donated my MD player to charity. I'm not sure if I regret it or not, I had a lot of fun with that thing. I kept one MD to donate with it (Cure - Disintegration) and skipped the rest, except for a greenish one I kept as a keepsake.

    I span Disintegration one last time and it sounded great. I don't think there's any reason it should have (and it would have been the original CD master not the remaster), perhaps it was just nostalgia playing tricks on me.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum550 View Post
    Well, dear NIN vinyl customer...
    Since the music is only on vinyl, what other kind of customer is there? Not relevant.
    ... digital obviously.

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    I don't understand why he couldn't take preorders for CDs and vinyl at the same time and get the CDs pressed when he had enough preorders. So if it was really a dead format the number of orders would reflect this and just get a limited run printed. Fuck it, take preorders for Cassettes at the same time. They would be bought, too.

    Also agree with the idea of just getting the hi res files and burning your own CD, which would be fine if there was a (not stealing) way of getting the hi res files, such as a download available without buying the vinyl.

    Really simple ways there of keeping everybody happy.

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    As far as I remember I stopped to burn CD before 2000, this is totally pointless, however, only vinyl is ridiculous and long time dead for good, the last physical audio object is Bluray audio, before that Dvd audio, and before that cd audio.
    Edit : Ho i will buy any CD, I started to collect vinyl too, like every one of them but... I stopped with the ridiculous nin 2016 statement.
    Last edited by ninjaw; 09-12-2017 at 05:35 AM.

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    The thing that no one upset about the lack of cd's seems to acknowledge is that Trent has always hated cd's, with a passion. While i love vinyl (music sounds so much better when you have to do it on purpose, just like any task one actually focuses on), i think this is much less about trent's love of vinyl than purely his hatred of cd's. I bet he would have stopped with broken if digital downloads existed in the 90's, but he had to wait till now. Hell, there wasn't even a physical release at all for the live and remix stuff for hesitation marks. But since he's with apple, what's to hold him bac?. The vinyl's are all about having something (not shitty) for the physical aesthetic. He's replaced cd's with digital music files and digital art packages. So other than appeasing people who are milk toast in the middle between the aesthetic value/pragmatic divide between vinyl and downloads, what's the point? I got ntae for six bucks on itunes last year, so it's not cost. He hates cd's and feels that more than he wants the money. Only thing that's even a little mean is not allowing a sale of deviations other than an overpriced record. If the thing was $40, there'd be no reason to complain. I like physical media for the back up and i like owning not renting (imagine if amazon went bankrupt and you had only bought digital movies from them), but cd's are dead and everyone can burn their own backup copies if they like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astfgyl View Post
    I don't understand why he couldn't take preorders for CDs and vinyl at the same time and get the CDs pressed when he had enough preorders. So if it was really a dead format the number of orders would reflect this and just get a limited run printed. Fuck it, take preorders for Cassettes at the same time. They would be bought, too.

    Also agree with the idea of just getting the hi res files and burning your own CD, which would be fine if there was a (not stealing) way of getting the hi res files, such as a download available without buying the vinyl.

    Really simple ways there of keeping everybody happy.
    you could buy the vinyl from the nin store, get the download, and simply sell the vinyl for a profit. The record comes with a seperate download code inside so no one loses digital. And you get your nin for free or a tidy little profit for your labor.

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    God, thank you, I thought I was the only one! Compare the DE remaster of March of the Pigs to the original CD release, in the new version you can barely make out the cymbals at the beginning of the track whereas in the '94 master you can almost hear the echo of the room it was recorded in!
    Exactly. 2017 editions make the older ones actually the DEFINITIVE

    ... digital obviously.
    Nope. You don't have a digital only option in there. The digital download was upon the purchase of the vinyl.
    I'm talking about NTAE, that time. Only now there's digital-only for AV. Wait. Not totally. You are forced to get a bundle + digital.
    There are no only-digital customers in the NIN store.

    No. It literally says they would try to fulfill existing preorders before they are available anywhere else. That's it. If you interpret that as anything beyond an assurance that they were trying to make right with existing customers, you're wrong.
    I stand corrected if I misinterpreted it. Sorry.

    Most of the DE files contain no data above the CD frequency range
    Absolutely right. No audible data and a waste of storage.


    From Ken Rockwell's blog: (...long text...)
    I insist in saying that no matter what articulation you can make out of dB SPL or bits and word tricking in there...
    it is irrelevant to the human hear trying to detect any audio above 20.000 Hz on 16-bit or be whatever bit range on lossless audio. The CD already has a sample rate of 22.000 Hz each side. That is, they added more 2000 Hz to make sure no one would come up with bull crap, but actually this didn't help. Do not trust these sources.
    There exists no evidence of a person who conducted a double blind ABX test of RedBook against any HD audio source who has succeeded.
    He can claim whatever he wants... there is no evidence. Please refer to Shanom/Nyquist theorem. Not a blogger.
    Last edited by Quantum550; 09-12-2017 at 06:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROFLRICK View Post
    Trent—we're on a first name basis, as well—is offering digital files at the sample rate and bit-depth in which the work was likely recorded. 24-96, for instance is an ideal recording format because it allows the artist to capture the full breadth, width, and body of the work.
    Nuances will be corrected, I'm sure, but they did everything on an ancient (nowadays!) Pro Tools rig to ADAT. There is no way anything was at 96k upon recording. The first album demonstrably recorded at 96 is With Teeth, and they subsequently dropped to 48k starting with the first HTDA or thereabouts.

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    are we still talking about this shit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calvatron View Post
    The thing that no one upset about the lack of cd's seems to acknowledge is that Trent has always hated cd's, with a passion. While i love vinyl (music sounds so much better when you have to do it on purpose, just like any task one actually focuses on), i think this is much less about trent's love of vinyl than purely his hatred of cd's.
    As I have mentioned in the previous page, I have also noticed that in an interview that actually happen in 1994. I suppose I just don't relate his stance, because I grew up with CDs and compact cassettes. However, getting The Downward Spiral on vinyl certainly helped me understand where he was coming from.

    http://www.theninhotline.net/archive...plazm94a.shtml

    http://www.echoingthesound.org/commu...878#post375878

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvatron View Post
    I bet he would have stopped with broken if digital downloads existed in the 90's, but he had to wait till now.
    I'd love to perish that thought, since I love NIN to bits, but I also see what you mean because that could also happen by circumstance instead of choice. He has admitted on an interview on MuchMusic in 2000, that if for whatever reason, was unable to pursue music as a lucrative and established career due to either a lack of monetary gain and/or opportunity, he'd still continue to pursue music via recording and performing locally (Probably, from the looks of it.), even if that meant having to work at McDonald's and making music at night. (While also saying that's what he'd do anyway. I figured, since it's still his passion, nonetheless.) It was also nice to see how grateful he was, even back then.



    Quote Originally Posted by Calvatron View Post
    Hell, there wasn't even a physical release at all for the live and remix stuff for hesitation marks. But since he's with apple, what's to hold him bac?. The vinyl's are all about having something (not shitty) for the physical aesthetic. He's replaced cd's with digital music files and digital art packages. So other than appeasing people who are milk toast in the middle between the aesthetic value/pragmatic divide between vinyl and downloads, what's the point? I got ntae for six bucks on itunes last year, so it's not cost. He hates cd's and feels that more than he wants the money. Only thing that's even a little mean is not allowing a sale of deviations other than an overpriced record. If the thing was $40, there'd be no reason to complain. I like physical media for the back up and i like owning not renting (imagine if amazon went bankrupt and you had only bought digital movies from them), but cd's are dead and everyone can burn their own backup copies if they like.
    That's definitely among the reasons as to why I still like to collect physical media.

    (And to somehow keep this on topic, since this has been more about formats as opposed to NTAE itself. Granted, I don't have all that much to say about NTAE that much now though. She's Gone Away and Burning Bright (Field on Fire) are still my favorite songs. Although, I think Dear World, might be growing on me a bit.)

    I also suppose this is because Not The Actual Events isn't even 1 year old yet, it's still hard for me to imagine no CD for it at all, especially if Add Violence will actually come out on CD, assuming that's actually true. Apologies if I messed up that on that one though, since I know I can't always rely on Amazon, but that's what it looks like for now. I can only still hope and guess that it actually becomes stocked on Amazon.com, and that it was just meant to come out later on. (I also came across it there.)

    If not, I'll obviously live and get on with my life in spite of how much I love NIN on CD. (Not only that, but with NIN, I think I've just been so used to not expecting anything, or long waits, so it hasn't really bothered me that bad, or even at all most of the time anyway. It's like I was conditioned to expect cancellations and delays, and to just be grateful when something actually materializes and comes to fruition.)

    Everything else came out on CD anyway, and I actually received my physical component safe and sound. Perhaps as always, only time will tell. This certainly makes me wonder how it'll all go down once the entire trilogy is complete.
    Last edited by Halo Infinity; 09-12-2017 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum550 View Post
    Exactly. 2017 editions make the older ones actually the DEFINITIVE
    That's (OP) the first criticism I've read about the DE quality. The majority of comments have praised them highly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum550 View Post
    Nope. You don't have a digital only option in there. The digital download was upon the purchase of the vinyl.
    I'm talking about NTAE, that time. Only now there's digital-only for AV. Wait. Not totally. You are forced to get a bundle + digital.
    There are no only-digital customers in the NIN store.
    In the NIN store, yes, but you can get them in loads of other stores e.g. Amazon, iTunes.

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    That's (OP) the first criticism I've read about the DE quality. The majority of comments have praised them highly.
    Well, it's easy to compare.
    Get foobar2000 and do ReplayGain the old master track with the new master track. Volumes will be leveled.
    Play the tracks (enable track-gain), back and forth, on similar positions. "Wish" and "March of the Pigs" are recommended.
    I recommend Sennheiser headphones for this or your Yamaha hi-fi stereo. Do not just go with earbuds.
    Do not apply any kind of EQ or DSP on the playback.
    Make notice that the older master constains: More punchy bass and more accurate treble.
    Now the punchy bass comes, of course, from the waveform peaks that do not cross the digital ceiling.
    New master has less treble (to make believe its more of an analogue sound should sound alike) and a bit more bass (fuller but not entirely dynamic as older master).
    In this new master, some may find good that there is less treble and some may find bad that percussion is *less present* because of this.
    Always when you remove a certain small amount of decibels in treble in a record, you have the entire percussion compromised.

    In the NIN store, yes, but you can get them in loads of other stores e.g. Amazon, iTunes.
    Amazon MP3's and iTunes AAC don't count. I was referring to lossless digital files.
    Last edited by Quantum550; 09-13-2017 at 04:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum550 View Post
    Well, it's easy to compare.
    Subjectively, sure. You're entirely entitled to prefer the originals, that's cool. It just seems to be a minority opinion from what I've seen so far. I haven't done a double-blind comparison so I can't yet comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum550 View Post
    Amazon MP3's and iTunes AAC don't count. I was referring to lossless digital files.
    Well from my POV what you are doing is classic "I must be right" forum technique: moving the goalposts. One minute it's CD availability, then it's digital, now lossless digital. At least you're not mansplaining Shannon-Nyquist to people anymore!

    The funny thing about how antagonist you are being is, if it weren't for your desire to argue, you would find you are amongst friends. Most people here are audio enthusiasts. Most people here want high quality lossless digital files. I'm pretty sure the majority of forum regulars (at least in the NIN sub forums) don't own turntables. And sure it would be great if you could buy the new digital masters in lossless individually from the NIN store, I don't think anyone in particular is disputing that. But shrug, for whatever reason Trent isn't selling them from his own store right now. It doesn't seem particularly logical or consistent, but it's also not going to change by pressing the Bold button in this forum over and over.

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    My God, sometimes audiophiles are like the Dementors in Harry Potter, sucking the joy out of all listening experiences with their spectographs

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    I find that the new remasters, while louder and less dynamic, are mixed in a way that allows you to hear little details that were harder to notice originally. I think the only real downside is the percussion, which can get a little drowned out during the loud parts, but overall I think these releases are better.

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    1) Some remasters are horrible (check Pantera's for an example on what NOT to do) but I thought the PHM remaster was brilliant. Maybe I am not mr audiophile but it beats the living shit out of the OG version when I had to turn my stereo all the way up

    2) this idea CDs are "dead" is nonsense. They may not be thriving anymore but they are not dead. 50 million people bought CDs in 2016...and thats the lowest since 1991...yet still 50 fucking million...every time I go to INDEPENDENT record stores, there are still lines of people buying CDs...casual music listeners dont bother with CD anymore but CD is becoming almost like vinyl now, where hardcores and collectors and people who want physical product are still getting them.....cassette tape is dead (sorry hipsters)...laser disc is dead. mini disc is dead. VHS is for the most part dead. CD is not dead...its just in a holding pattern (like blu ray)

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    Add me to the list of people that still hopes a CD release happens. I begrudgingly bought the vinyl Definitive Editions & Deviations I because those were the only way to get them. If they had been made available in CD format, or the more forward thinking Blu-Ray audio, I would have picked those instead. I still buy CDs because it's a way to get a lossless copy of an album with the accompanying packaging & artwork and it's reasonably easy to store.

    I may never actually listen to the vinyl records I've bought. I don't have a turntable. I get why they are supposed to be "better" but I honestly don't have the time to have a music "experience" that listening to vinyl apparently entails. Honestly, who does? I've got a job to go to, a dog to walk, errands to run, etc. I won't restrict myself to sitting around, tied to a turntable just to listen to music "the way it was meant to be heard." I just feel like the whole vinyl resurgence was a way for the record industry to get people to pay $30-40 (or more) for the same experience but with the mystical vinyl placebo effect to justify it.

  26. #56
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    ^^^ What he said ^^^

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    Well from my POV what you are doing is classic "I must be right" forum technique: moving the goalposts. One minute it's CD availability, then it's digital, now lossless digital. At least you're not mansplaining Shannon-Nyquist to people anymore!

    The funny thing about how antagonist you are being is, if it weren't for your desire to argue, you would find you are amongst friends. Most people here are audio enthusiasts. Most people here want high quality lossless digital files. I'm pretty sure the majority of forum regulars (at least in the NIN sub forums) don't own turntables. And sure it would be great if you could buy the new digital masters in lossless individually from the NIN store, I don't think anyone in particular is disputing that. But shrug, for whatever reason Trent isn't selling them from his own store right now. It doesn't seem particularly logical or consistent, but it's also not going to change by pressing the Bold button in this forum over and over.
    No. It's the conversation that is dynamic.
    I think you got the wrong idea. I ain't here to produce negative arguments.
    If the bold is really getting nasty, I stop. Sorry.
    One last thing. It's science that is right. Not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
    Add me to the list of people that still hopes a CD release happens. I begrudgingly bought the vinyl Definitive Editions & Deviations I because those were the only way to get them. If they had been made available in CD format, or the more forward thinking Blu-Ray audio, I would have picked those instead. I still buy CDs because it's a way to get a lossless copy of an album with the accompanying packaging & artwork and it's reasonably easy to store.

    I may never actually listen to the vinyl records I've bought. I don't have a turntable. I get why they are supposed to be "better" but I honestly don't have the time to have a music "experience" that listening to vinyl apparently entails. Honestly, who does? I've got a job to go to, a dog to walk, errands to run, etc. I won't restrict myself to sitting around, tied to a turntable just to listen to music "the way it was meant to be heard." I just feel like the whole vinyl resurgence was a way for the record industry to get people to pay $30-40 (or more) for the same experience but with the mystical vinyl placebo effect to justify it.
    And you sir win the prize for a "real reasonable perspective!!!" I've been hard on the "why isn't there a cd?!" whiners, but is still biy the cd versions for exactly your dtated reasons. I do have a turntable and use it heavily, but that is a personal hobby/preference that requires disposie income. Congratulations, your are both reasonable and have a genuine point. You won the internet!

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swykk View Post
    Forget for one minute that CDs sound better than vinyl when mastered properly (STOP with the warmer sound schtick. Your weird beard grows three sizes when you try that inane argument).

    Here's why I do and will always prefer CDs: They are smaller and easier to store. I have every available NIN release on CD (among hundreds of other CDs) so this is my preferred method of collection that I have invested in. I can listen to an entire CD on the go or rip the files on to my computer and throw them on my phone. I don't have to sit in a room with an outdated cumbersome record player to hear an album. I work, I go out with friends...I don't have the time. And yes, not to beat a dead horse and kick the hornet's nest (again) but I believe vinyl is the dead format that hipsters revived and now it's just accepted. Even I accept it more than I used to. I used to be a lot angrier about it but now it's more of a "Whatever you are into is fine. Knock yourselves out. It's not hurting me." Except now it kind of is. What's troubling is that TR seems to be anti CD now which sucks for me and other fans who really would like to buy things like the new EPs (which yes, I preordered on amazon but keep getting emails telling me they're delayed) and ESPECIALLY Fragile: Deviations, which wasn't even an option.

    You vinyl folks get to have your niche.

    Should those of us who prefer CDs for one or all of the reasons listed above just go fuck ourselves and start our collections over? No fucking way. Especially for a format that simply isn't a trade up.
    Digital FLAC sounds better than both scientifically, so your point is moot. 24/48 destroys CD.
    Vinyl has better artwork and there are less digital-to-analog conversions. It is vastly a better format. It recreates the audio wave exactly as it is recorded and is truly lossless.
    CD is D E A D. Deal with it. In five years, it'll be as dead as cassette tapes and 8-tracks.

  30. #60
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    I have spent thousands of dollars to have audio equipment that lets me listen to my music as close to as what the musician intended. Trent right now makes his music to be listened to on vinyl, combining digital and analog recording techniques (like Daft Punk's RAM) so that his music sounds EXCELLENT on vinyl. Vinyl is--according to his "vinyl statement" the definitive way to listen to NIN so that's how I listen.

    I have a huge record collection because I also believe and can prove that vinyl sounds superior to most digital formats, but mainly because I BELIEVE it sounds better and don't give a shit what neckbeardy science proves otherwise. Placebo, Luddite, who cares. Vinyl sounds better and engages me with the music better...IN MY OPINION.

    CD is a dead format though. The art and physical media degrades quickly. Shit, my Year Zero copy art is all fucked up from being in storage and my mom's copy of New Order Power Corruption & Lies from the 80s is almost unplayable. My uncle's copy of Quadrophenia is in great shape and just needed to be cleaned. Original pressing, btw.

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