Brussels attacks

[r_z]

If the events in Paris and Brussels teach us anything it's NOT to exclude certain demographics from our society, NOT to discriminate others, NOT to let ghettoisation happen. Or else we'll have minorities willing to join extremists and/or fight us with violence.

[DigitalChaos]

the problem is that they can make this everywhere and the ingridients are easy to get. it's sad but they aren't stupid enough to just bomb themselves while building those...

Oh it happens. That stuff is very volatile. It's why most people don't use it as an explosive. The ease of sourcing it and the fact that it bypasses all the bomb test (it's not nitrogen based) is why they seem to go after it. If you get a few crystals in the threads of the jar/container you store it in and then start closing the top and creating friction... booom. A few grams of it will take your arm off.

There are quite a few in the "redneck" category in the US who enjoy explosives and TATP will sometimes be one of their DIY routes. But it's usually in mere grams. 33lbs (15kg) is fucking ridiculous. They had to have had quite a few more attacks lined up that didn't end up happening. I am guessing they were going to lose their opportunity so they cut their losses and just went for what they could.

[Exocet]

You're absolutely right and I can't deny that the kind of terror we're facing right now is cruel and dangerous as f***.
I just wanted to show that terror was always there.
Germany had the left terror group RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion) and they bombed shopping malls when those were empty at night and kidnapped bosses from banks and news papers to reach their goals.
Now everyone could be a victim. I am afraid too.
But I still think that we have to stick together, Europe, muslims, christians, jews, just everybody, because when we start to blame every muslim and push them into a corner, IS gets what they want.

To be honest many in Britain worry about Germany...their intelligence services are weak..and they dont understand Germanys slack attitude to all of this.....Germany have not played a major role in global affairs outside Europe for past 70 years...its a new country.... however..the U.K and France have.

There needs to be more security, Germany it seems is not taking it seriously.

[WorzelG]

They had to have had quite a few more attacks lined up that didn't end up happening. I am guessing they were going to lose their opportunity so they cut their losses and just went for what they could.

There was a story in the UK press about being prepared for up to 10 attacks in London just before Brussels happened. I wonder if we just got lucky
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6942861.html

[reznovka]

@Exocet
Well, we are watching the terrorists and the radicals who came back from Syria, but our main problem is that we don't have enough cops. And while they have to keep track of the terrorists, they have to protect the PEGIDA demonstations and the burned refugee camps.
Germany tries its best but I think it won't help.

[Volband]

The chaos we are witnessing now has nothing to do with the refugees and largely to do with EU's complete lack of strategy and subsequently panicking at its outermost borders. Refugees aren't rioting because they feel entitled to your women, jobs and houses but because they are sitting out in the cold and rain and getting no information as to why they are not allowed in or how long they are supposed to stay in limbo.

And there's my point. The EU don't know what to do with them and it's hurting everybody. Your response to this is to blindly let even more of them in, like that would help. I don't see anyone offering a proper solution.

27 and yes I vote left. I don't have a perfect solution, but I think that has to be one and keeping victims of war outside isn't the right one.

I am not rich but I earn enough do live a good life (good apartment, dog, good laptop, no car, enough to eat, some concerts per year, nin merch) and I donated clothes and hygiene articles and my hospital collected money for things the refugees need and I offered to help at the camp, but they already had enough nurses.
Africa has some countries where gays for example are hunted down and I think that those people need every help possible.
Christianity is a big problem there, because big parts of Africa are follow this religion and as long as the church bans condoms there will be more and more poor children. Like in Syria we have to cut the roots of the problem, not the leaves. Yeah we have to help everyone, as long as we have it better.


I live in a part where we have muslim boroughs and yes we have some tension, because of radicals, some religious and some right wing idiots who burn down camps and schools where the refugees live right now.
In Germany it's pretty easy to live without work, because the government pays EVERYBODY and gives you a free apartment.
We have some homeless people, but they wouldn't have to live on the street. Those people choose to live there, don't ask me why.
Every kid gets money. We have a strong economy and like I said - everybody gets money.
I know that it's easy as a german to act like this, but most of the refugees want to come to Germany because we have the money and the possibilities to help them.

No need for insults
I always call my doctors when we get the results of the kind of cancer (as a nurse I am not allowed to tell the people what they have) and I always take my time for the patients after the doctor told them their type of tumor.

Well, damn me, that's actually nice. And in a way, even more worrying that a country like that can't handle the refugees. Though even before the migrant wave, I've read about problems with Turkish people if I remember correctly.

But I can only say the same thing to you too: you. don't. know. how. If that won't induce some level of reassessing your stance on this matter, I don't know what would. Burning refugee camps should not be dismissed as "aww, radical right being radical right, how cute!" What's stopping them to continue it? The government has no idea what to do, and even your average people don't mind them tormenting the refugees, they just don't say it openly. There is a huge dividing line.

If the events in Paris and Brussels teach us anything it's NOT to exclude certain demographics from our society, NOT to discriminate others, NOT to let ghettoisation happen. Or else we'll have minorities willing to join extremists and/or fight us with violence.

Interesting story my college just told me. Yesterday he was at our capital city, and after he got checked on by the police who made him pack out his bag, even the anti-terrorist force found him when he went out to smoke a cig. He said they were asking him questions, like what's he doing in the city, and after him telling about his wife and the coming baby, they asked about his missing ring (too thin for him to put it up now), LOL. They told him to empty his bag and warned him not to make any sudden movements, and one of the guy hovered his hand around his gun the entire time, like in a wild west movie. He also said that the day of the bombings, he saw the task force nailing someone to the ground, forcibly removing his stuff, like shoes and whatnot, then after they finished they let him go.

So, basically we can choose between this, or getting bombed.

He also said an arabian couple abroaded the train, and he heard some people seriously discussing if they should get off of the train and go with another one. Yes, it's crazy, if an arabian would want to kill you in Europe, he/she would not fucking dress like one to begin with, especially not after what happened this week, but you have to understand that this is the mentality flowing around.

Yeah, what did you say? Not to discriminate? Well, hate to break it you, but you hardly invented anything groundbreaking with that realization. But you see, there's one thing to do the talk ("ACCEPT EACH OTHER" "LOVE EACH OTHER" "WE ARE THE SAME") and make it happen.

Terror attack--> Refugees coming in --> Refugees rioting (yes, the government's fault, but ypur average citizen won't see it) ---> Refugees assaulting your people ---> Another terror attack ---> More refugees coming in ---> And another one. (I also leaved out the part about those refugees who were covering for terrorists, or were extremists to begin with, that's just icing on the cake). And you expect people to not to be discriminative? Not to talk about that if a refugee would not like it be assimilated, they should have every right to refuse it, and continue on with their tradition. But the thing is, they will continue with these traditions with their people.

There are many reasons why the distance between refugees and citizens of countries they are granted asylum in is getting bigger and bigger. It's stellar that you can do the talk, the next step would be you wanting world peace, and hey, I have no problem with that, but you will have to wake up and realize that it's not that easy. Never was.

edit: Also, don't say stuf flike Paris and Brussels taught us this, LOL. My own country literally got chopped into pieces because we did the same for hundreds of years, so nationalities noped the fuck out the very first time they got the chance. And we could go further back in history, but even my example is "only" ~100 years old, so yeah. If Paris and Brussels taught us anything, it's that we are not safe, and our intelligence services are utter shit.

@Exocet
Well, we are watching the terrorists and the radicals who came back from Syria, but our main problem is that we don't have enough cops. And while they have to keep track of the terrorists, they have to protect the PEGIDA demonstations and the burned refugee camps.
Germany tries its best but I think it won't help.

I don't think anyone have enough cops to keep surveillancing every hub in your country 0-24. Sure, we have cops and task forces on the street now. Again. What about a month from now? Back to where we were.

[Volband]

Damn, I actually forgot the one thing I meant to post! I'm working at the national railroad... well ,company is a bad word, but you get what I mean. Anyway, we had to sign an order, that we have to actively look for people who look of arabic origin, people with stuffed backpacks or one of my favourite, people who look like they are trying to not look out of place. Like, literally 99% of the people I see daily try to look normal, because they act normal, so... Yeah. I actually did not read it through, so I'll have to check what am I suspposed to do exactly, like tackle them with my 60 kgs, or call the anti-terror task force on everyone with a big backpack.

On one hand it's ridiculous, but on the other, it's only logical if the steps which have been taken to prevent terrorism failed, you need to top those in some way. Which results in the scenario where you are either a racist asshole 0-24 and can live in relative safety, or you let your guard down and hope you're not gonna be the next easy target. As for me, these clowns have to be kiddin with me, thinking I'd go snooping around in the name of anti-terrorism for the money I'm getting payed.

[reznovka]

There's never 100% safety and we have to choose between freedom with dangers or a police state.
Germany had 528 attacks on refugees in 2015 and their homes and we had the NSU (national socialist underground) which killed 11 people over years and it's a national scandal because the security service knew about them and didn't stop the group, no they had undercover agents in the wider circles of the group and gave them money.
When the group died the files about them disappeared/got shreddered. Our police always acts against leftist groups and burning luxury cars or the riots on the 1st of may but is blind on the right eye and doesn't give a shit about a dead arab or people rioting in Heidenau (german city) for 2 whole days in front of a refugee camp.
All of this is terror too, self brewed and accepted because it only targets foreigners.
We have problems with albanian family gangs and turkish assholes but just as much as with neo nazis and other german assholes.
I am 100% pro asyl and even I know that there'll some assholes on the way to Germany. They're still just people and to quote Slipknot "PEOPLE=SHIT" - everywhere, there are no better people or worse just by the place they were born. and just because I got lucky and was born in Germany I am not allowed to keep others out and accept their shitty life. We have one single planet and one mankind. We should at least try to make it as good as possible for everyone.

[Volband]

I am 100% pro asyl and even I know that there'll some assholes on the way to Germany. They're still just people and to quote Slipknot "PEOPLE=SHIT"

I can agree to this once you will have a plan to house and employ them all. Until then, you are not only letting in assholes as well, who are eating the same free food which the ones in need get, but it also turns the normal migrants into "assholes", because even they are rioting because of the incompetence of the governments, and don't forget the news next day with headlines like "Migrants with free shelter and free food are rioting!!", which in return annoy the shit out of your citizens.

there are no better people or worse just by the place they were born.

This, however, is simply not true, except for infants. The culture, family and the people you are raised by and grow up with influence you a lot. Even social stereotypes are based on this. People are not equal, and if you know where a person was born, to which ethnicity, who were their parents, where did they live, you can take a very safe educated guess as to whether he or she belongs to the better or the worse people.

[reznovka]

https://www.facebook.com/refugeestrikebo/

Since yesterday there are refugees and support groups in my city protesting for a right to work or going to college.
They want to be part of the society but our bureaucracy is too slow.
We have the possibility to give a lot of people a chance for a better life and like I mentioned earlier we need them too.
A lot of doctors in my hospital weren't born in Germany and a lot of the nurses too.
@Volband
I never was in Hungary and I can't speak out of your position and so can't you to me.
Like I said, I know that it's easy to speak from my point of view because life is easy in Germany.
I would never ask all the european countries to take all the refugees, we have to find a solution based on the strength of economy and other factors.
I am still hoping for something like that and maybe some day our government will stop selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and we can end the war in Syria and the refugees can live in their country again if they want or don't have to leave in the first place.
anyway.
If you ever get the chance to visit Germany (especially the ruhr area) tell me and I show you around and we have a beer or two .

[reznovka]

People are not equal, and if you know where a person was born, to which ethnicity, who were their parents, where did they live, you can take a very safe educated guess as to whether he or she belongs to the better or the worse people.

Wow...

I won't do it, but I you know what I was about to say...

[Volband]

Wow...

I won't do it, but I you know what I was about to say...

All right, let's play a game:

Here's Marcel. He's from an ethnicity which is notorious for being prone to commit crimes (even at a young age) and for being undereducated - which ethnicity I'm talking about can change from country to country. He lives with one parent, this parent finished 6 years from primary school out of the required 8. Marcel has 7 brothers and sisters. They are very poor.

Here's Thomas. Thomas is white, his father teaches at a university while his mother is in a high position at a bank. They both have more than one college degrees and they live a more than comfortable life. Thomas has a little brother, 8 years younger than him.

Let's say one of them is about to finish med school, and the other one was just released from jail for the 3rd time. Now your world is such where nonsense as predestination (not the religious one) is unthinkable, so you would be offended by the question, and if you were forced to answer, you would say it's OBVIOUSLY coinflip, so that's what you would do, flip a coin. Now me, the evil guy would put up all my savings - based on by basic understanding of how society works - on the answer that Thomas is the one with the incoming med degree. Do you think I'd win?

Now, whether these people can be called "worse"... I mean, a doctor has the same rights as a street thug, but such discussion is better suited to have among friends in privacy, and not out of the open, on the Internet, where you have to cosplay as r_z and talking about living together in harmony and other utopistic hippy stuff.

And if you meant I implied that we should get rid of these "worse people"... I did not. The goal should be to alleviate their burden, so 30-50-80 years from now no one has to be born into crime and uneducation.

edit: LMAO, messed up the name first. maybe karma got to me

e2: btw you don't need Godwin's law to predict that a discussion about ethnics, ethnic terrorists and Germany will have the Nazi regime surface in one way or another.

https://www.facebook.com/refugeestrikebo/
Like I said, I know that it's easy to speak from my point of view because life is easy in Germany.

It's not actually true. I mean, it's your country having no idea what to do with the refugees (while accepting in the most), so in a certain way, it's the toughest be from Germany when discussing the migrant situation. Whether you somehow miraculously manage to settle things or have to walk around burning cars in the end does not affect my peaceful mornings. As long as your economy holds, we are fine here.

[reznovka]

so there are no uneducated and poor white people and no syrian doctors?
your "game" isn't any prove at all for your idea that there people who are born worse.
everyone can end up as doctor or die living on the street, as long as we give everyone the same chances and don't exclude them.

[Volband]

so there are no uneducated and poor white people and no syrian doctors?
your "game" isn't any prove at all for your idea that there people who are born worse.
everyone can end up as doctor or die living on the street, as long as we give everyone the same chances and don't exclude them.

You missed the point; it's not about race. I added those to make the example easier, as a lot of country has certain ethnicities living in good conditions, and the "rich white kid" stereotype is also based on real life. If you are born into an uneducated, poor family who frequently commits crime, and raises their children to commit crimes as they were raised by their parents, then if you don't end up as them, you are the rare exception, not the rule.

You told me many times that X might be because you are from Germany, Y might be because you are from Germany. Maybe Germany is indeed the closest thing to Heaven on Earth. But for other countries (even for big ones, like the USA, see black ghettos) you can ask any local to point you to a place where you can see my example by your own two eyes. Uneducated, poor ethnic families, with 8 children running around. I've went to school with many of these in primary school and I hate to break it to you, but most of them couldn't even finish that (many of them remained illiterate, despite every attempt by the school and teachers). let alone getting into high school. That 8 children running around? No, they won't do brain surgery on your children or grandchildren, you can bet on it.

So yes, you can tell a lot by just knowing where someone is born to.

The problem is not with the Syrian doctors btw, I'm having a hard time imagining that they are the ones going on a rape-trip after they got asylum. But with your system, Syrian doctors are on the same level as those troublemakers.

[r_z]

I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no clue, Volband. Either that or you're completely brainwashed by your countries "free" media. Your portrayal of refugees as criminals and rapists is ridiculous and basically racist. Seriously, how old are you?

[reznovka]

Maybe I'm blind or outright stupid, but I don't see your point.
Money and your parents decide where you'll end up and even that's not everything.
As easy as it is to live in Germany you'll find a shitload of assholes and criminals on our streets, so where does you idea fit in there?
I worked at a psychic clinic for children and met a lot of families of poorly educated people with 7-8 children, all of them born in Germany and white.
Just because someone is born in Syria or Vietnam or Zimbabwe or Germany or France doesn't decided where he or she will end up.

[Volband]

I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no clue, Volband. Either that or you're completely brainwashed by your countries "free" media. Your portrayal of refugees as criminals and rapists is ridiculous and basically racist. Seriously, how old are you?

Did they commit crimes? Yes. Did they commit sexual assaults? Yes. For the love of sanity, stop whitewashing them! No one said they are bad people, only that they have bad seeds among them. That's why I'm advocating a system, where you at least try to minimize the blow for everyone involved. You don't let literally everyone in, and dismiss their inevitable falling out (to a degree starting from somewhat understandable rioting, and totally unacceptable physical and sexual assaults), but you also don't pretend like you can't even house at least a couple thousand refugees for a while, or that they will be surely impossible to live.
@reznovka First of all, you have much less control of what people in your own country become. Every country's aim to ensure its citizen have good financial conditions and a paved out way of education. Why? Because if you are not stupid and poor, you are less likely to be a growing pain on your country's back. With the refugees, we have the luxury of knowing beforehand who are we dealing with exactly. For example, maybe, just maybe, give priority to families or educated people, over a group of let's say a group of 21-24 years old Syrian males who just came because they want to "make it big." As I said, a Syrian doctor, mother or child are a "bit" less likely to be the culprits of crimes like what happened on New Year's eve in Germany. These people are also much easier to employ. (edit: well, my last sentence is actually debateable, I guess)

And yes, there are poor and uneducated white people too. Once again, missing the point, but here's a question to backtrack you on it: how many of them ended up with college degrees? I'm really not sure why in 2016 I have to explain to grown people that no, we are not literally the same, and yes, where and how you grow up have an enormous effect on what you might become, or at the very least the possibilities you will be able to have and not have. Being a German or Syrian by itself does not tell us much, but if you dig deeper, then it can be a different story.

But let's sum it up:
- Germany has no idea how to integrate the refugees.
- Germany can't even keep them put, which means they can't even solve the living conditions of the refugees.
- Germany (and Sweden) tried its best to cover up for crimes committed by refugees, whether it was them beating someone up, or sexually harassing a citizen or more.
- Germany would most likely not find a terror cell if it was sitting right on top of her nose.
- Germany's (and your) conclusion is that the way the refugee situation has been handled worked out stellar so far, so the obvious next step is to keep letting everyone and their cousin in.
- Refugees keep drowning in their attempt to Greece, and poor Greece hasn't even got the money to sustain itself, let alone the rioting refugees stuck on its coast.
- We had two terror attacks in Europe since the refugee crisis, and while some people were afraid from the refugees from the very start, these attacks made it so easy to engulf lots of minds with more fear and animosity. It sucks for both the refugees and the EU people.
- I propose that maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe after these colossal political failures (which costed refugees lives and the safety of the citizens) we could at the very least switch some things up, instead of pouring gasoline on to the fire, and pretending that if we really want to believe, with the power of humanity that fire will be put out. I just said at least try it with water a bit too, on the off-chance it works.

Conclusion? I'm racist. Ayyyyy. Still like talking to you guys more, than your right wing "buddies", because at the very least your ignorance fuels a great cause, so basically you are the cheerleaders of society, and even though your team is down to 0-30, you keep cheering. Hey, maybe in the coming months I'll have to eat my words, because you will be telling me "Hey @Volband, not sure if you heard it, but 25% of the refugees are already working, another 40% is getting ready to finalize their papers, and the rest are waiting patiently in refugee camps which are now not overstuffed at all. The crime rates of them plummeted down to zero, except a few instances where right wing extremists tried to provoke them. We expect X number of additional refugees to come in within the next half year, but we are almost finished with the facilities for them. Eat that!!" Here's hoping. Maybe Merkel knows best, and with her incoming success, she will cement herself not only into the German politics, but in the EU one as well, as one of the greatest leaders of all time.

[reznovka]

The assholes who raped women on new years eve weren't refugees. They lived here for years.
On the "real" Oktoberfest in Germany we have about 10 rapes every year but no newspaper is interested in it, because it's a german tradition.
The rate of crimes committed by foreigners is higher now but in comparison to the number refugees we greeted in 2015 the rate actually fell.
The media had no other topic than the NYE rapes for weeks and our police stopped 3 terror cells in the last years.

And if you'd be right and it really does matter where you're born, would it be right for us to deny them permission to chances and a better life?

[Volband]

According to Facebook, I've got bombed in Pakistan. You guys also getting this? <current year> is... weird so far.

On the "real" Oktoberfest in Germany we have about 10 rapes every year but no newspaper is interested in it, because it's a german tradition.

Wait, wha--

Actually, I'm probably better off not asking anything. I've just seen a girl eating three punches then still following her (I assume) boyfriend while sobbing, so I'm done rationalizing for today.

And if you'd be right and it really does matter where you're born, would it be right for us to deny them permission to chances and a better life?

No, but do it with an actual, systematic plan. Wanting to help and actually helping are not the same.

[DigitalChaos]

my dumb fucking representative is pushing US-wide legislation on burner phones, trying to take advantage of the Brussels attacks.
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-ta...-attack-2016-3

yes, let's have 7-Eleven (gas station chain) be responsible for processing and holding peoples social security numbers. what could go wrong?
yes, ID requirements for voting is unjust but for basic communication? "lol fuck the poor people" Doesn't matter that this is a trivial hurdle to bypass for someone with a little money... like a terrorist. Fake ID's a fucking cheap. Highschoolers have plenty of them.

[Mantra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...isn't Germany --and the EU as whole-- currently suffering from a population crisis due to falling birth rates? In fact, this article says that Germany has the lowest birth rate in the entire world, with only 8.2 births per 1,000 people. Holy shit. The birth rate for the whole EU is only 1.55 births for every woman, so doesn't that mean that European population as a whole is currently shrinking? That seems like a disaster for the future of the economy.

So in light of the population crisis, wouldn't a mass influx of immigrants actually be a healthy thing?

[DigitalChaos]

If this happened 20-30 years back, we would probably have a much better outcome. Actual policing is how this kind of thing gets solved. Instead, we have stripped resources from this "old way" and put it toward NSA style intel gathering that lets so much more slip through the cracks. ISIS has repeatedly shown to be low skill, yet they still aren't stopped with current methods.

Revisiting this now that the following has been revealed:

The Mafia Runs Guns for ISIS in Europe
&
Viewed as gangsters, Brussels bombers were able to plot unseen

So, again... you want to reduce this stuff? Policing! Not an increased focus in NSA style surveillance.

[Jinsai]

Fake ID's a fucking cheap. Highschoolers have plenty of them.

There's a block of road here in Los Angeles where all the high school kids go to get fake IDs. I went down there with a friend of mine to get one when I was fifteen. I went to the same location a few months ago to go to this really awesome pastrami place there, and I still got several unsolicited offers for a fake ID. I'm 36, and I've recently developed a streak of gray hair.

I'm hoping this sort of suggestion is just a fake out, intended to make the people who want to commit terrorist acts laugh and gain a false sense of security... and not, y'know, a REAL suggestion of legislation intended to stop terrorism.

[DigitalChaos]

There's a block of road here in Los Angeles where all the high school kids go to get fake IDs. I went down there with a friend of mine to get one when I was fifteen. I went to the same location a few months ago to go to this really awesome pastrami place there, and I still got several unsolicited offers for a fake ID. I'm 36, and I've recently developed a streak of gray hair.

I'm hoping this sort of suggestion is just a fake out, intended to make the people who want to commit terrorist acts laugh and gain a false sense of security.

That's actually really interesting. I always wondered if the "old" channels for IDs stayed open after the internet channels popped up. Getting one customized exactly as you want, with your photo, belonging to any state, and perfectly done is something being openly done now. There are even subreddits for it. A fake ID will 100% bypass the national firearms background check system too. But that's another topic. My point is that there are a lot of demands for fake IDs that go beyond adjusting your DOB. There is enough demand for it that people will apparently try and offer it like it were as popular as weed.



Edit: on your last point... Burners are actually a big red flag in surveillance, but the Rep behind this legislation is unlikely to be clued into that. It strikes me as typical CA legislation wrapped in "do something"

[Volband]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...isn't Germany --and the EU as whole-- currently suffering from a population crisis due to falling birth rates? In fact, this article says that Germany has the lowest birth rate in the entire world, with only 8.2 births per 1,000 people. Holy shit. The birth rate for the whole EU is only 1.55 births for every woman, so doesn't that mean that European population as a whole is currently shrinking? That seems like a disaster for the future of the economy.

So in light of the population crisis, wouldn't a mass influx of immigrants actually be a healthy thing?

Don't know about Germany, but my country is definitely not helping the statistics. There has been attempts to try to keep (welp, chain) the young at home, and right now there's a plan being discussed where you get a shitton of free money and a free family house if you agree to have at least 3 children.

While the economy surely welcomes all hands on deck, you have to think about national integrity as well. Settling down refugees does not help the abyssmal birth rates (as they will be more likely to make a family within their own circle, and even if race mixing happens, it takes someone out from those statistics), and down the road, if the refugees will have a much healthier birth rate, then we have a problem at our hands. But I'm out of ideas why frontliner W-European countries like Germany has such problems. I always assumed low birth rates is an occurance at countries where you don't have enough social securities, so you rather plan for one child, instead of risking starvation.

[reznovka]

Germany has a strong economy and men and women work equally and a child might stop or slow down your career. As strong as our social secruity may be, it's hard for women, especially single-moms, to get a good job and when you're working 8hours a day, 6 days per week, you can't find space for children in there. It's a generation thing too. A lot of people don't want their short time relationships be manifested by a child and going out is harder too. So most people wait until their late 30s to get their first, in most cases only, child.

[Volband]

Germany has a strong economy and men and women work equally and a child might stop or slow down your career. As strong as our social secruity may be, it's hard for women, especially single-moms, to get a good job and when you're working 8hours a day, 6 days per week, you can't find space for children in there. It's a generation thing too. A lot of people don't want their short time relationships be manifested by a child and going out is harder too. So most people wait until their late 30s to get their first, in most cases only, child.

So why don't you make maternity leave worth it? If they can return to their job and get a good sum every month while being home with their children, then unless we are talking about positions like CEO, you could safely take a maternity leave.

[Mantra]

While the economy surely welcomes all hands on deck, you have to think about national integrity as well. Settling down refugees does not help the abyssmal birth rates (as they will be more likely to make a family within their own circle, and even if race mixing happens, it takes someone out from those statistics), and down the road, if the refugees will have a much healthier birth rate, then we have a problem at our hands.

But...isn't this just another way of saying "keep Europe white"?

Despite the initial struggles, it seems like the mass immigration influx should be a positive thing. Europe needs more people and, in particular, way more babies, or they are almost mathematically guaranteed to face economic collapse in the future. Meanwhile, there are all these refugees who would like to make Europe their new home. Seems like an obvious win-win situation.

It's hard for me to understand why anyone would reject that in the name of "preserving national integrity."

[reznovka]

But...isn't this just another way of saying "keep Europe white"?

Despite the initial struggles, it seems like the mass immigration influx should be a positive thing. Europe needs more people and, in particular, way more babies, or they are almost mathematically guaranteed to face economic collapse in the future. Meanwhile, there are all these refugees who would like to make Europe their new home. Seems like an obvious win-win situation.

It's hard for me to understand why anyone would reject that in the name of "preserving national integrity."

*signed*
@Volband
Nobody says that it'll be easy but we are able to have a good outcome for the whole situation when we're willing to give those people a real chance.

[Volband]

But...isn't this just another way of saying "keep Europe white"?

Despite the initial struggles, it seems like the mass immigration influx should be a positive thing. Europe needs more people and, in particular, way more babies, or they are almost mathematically guaranteed to face economic collapse in the future. Meanwhile, there are all these refugees who would like to make Europe their new home. Seems like an obvious win-win situation.

It's hard for me to understand why anyone would reject that in the name of "preserving national integrity."

There is "not keeping Europe white" with having mixed couples and there's "not keeping Europe white" with ethnic people having a much higher birth ratio within their group. The problem with the latter that it will lead to cultural differences and opposition. In a hypothetical scenario a hundred years from now, these once-refugees could have every right to change the majority of churches into Islamic ones. Why should they follow the European traditions, ceremonies, whatever, when they have their own and they are continously overgrowing the Europeans? No nation should be brought into an existencial crisis just to cater for its guests.

No, if you want to settle in Europe, then first and foremost, learn the language of the country you live in (rip Belgian refugees) then adapt and accept OUR culture. You don't have to follow it, but you better not make a fuss about all the crosses all around the city for example, saying it offends you.

So yes, refugees coming in can solve the problems of empty workplaces, but no, it by no means a solution to the declining birth rates. If Europe wants to hold onto its culture, then they either:
1. basically convert 90% of the refugees to leave their bubbles and mingle with non-refugees and find a partner from non-refugees (and that requires the non-refugees' willingness as well. I guess it will be somewhat of a taboo to get together with a refugee)
2. make it so the European people doesn't have to think it over 10 times whether they want to have at least one children or not. It is very, very, very abyssmal news if not even the West could solve this issue.

And yes, technically, if this issue would indeed turned out to be unsolveable, then I guess letting in other cultures to make it to their own is still better, than having an empty continent. But that's something none of us will live to see, because it's a long process.