The Childfree and/or Unmarried Thread

[Halo Infinity]

I'm sure there's a plethora of valid reasons to not have children and/or get married. If you don't mind sharing, what are your reasons for being one, the other, or both for that matter? If anything, I completely commend those that avoid getting married and/or having children for all the wrong reasons. They're both extremely moral/ethical decisions.

[theruiner]

I don't believe in marriage. Which is to say, I don't mind what other people do, and I'm not judging anyone who chooses to get married at all, but to me it's an arbitrary thing. You can be just as in love, just as dedicated and have a relationship on the same level without going through a special ceremony or getting a piece of paper.

Like I said, though, it all depends on the people involved. For some people, it really does make some sort of a difference for them, and that's great. For others (myself included), they don't feel a need to do that to feel like their relationship is complete. I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but the way a lot of people talk about marriage really irks me, as if there is some actual innate difference that makes marriage better than just being in a relationship, and if you're not married then you're not on the same level as people who are, or your relationship is somehow not as valid, which is just blatantly untrue.

As far as kids go, I decided many years ago that I didn't want any, and I still feel the same. Kids are great, but I don't want any of my own. There are tons of actual reasons, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the way my brain is "wired" (for lack of a better term). I just don't have that natural urge or instinct to have children. Like I said, there are other factors as well. I love kids, and I'm sorry, I'm sympathetic to parents who are dealing with this, I really am, but every time I'm in a store and I hear some kid screaming his/her head off, I thank my lucky stars I don't have any of my own. It's just not something I want to deal with. Just as an example.

But, like I said, at the end of the day, if I really wanted children, if I had that drive, then I don't think the negative aspects of raising a child would prevent me from doing so. It's really the inherent lack of an interest in having children that stops me, not any other reason.

[candy]

I don't believe in marriage. Which is to say, I don't mind what other people do, and I'm not judging anyone who chooses to get married at all, but to me it's an arbitrary thing. You can be just as in love, just as dedicated and have a relationship on the same level without going through a special ceremony or getting a piece of paper.

Like I said, though, it all depends on the people involved. For some people, it really does make some sort of a difference for them, and that's great. For others (myself included), they don't feel a need to do that to feel like their relationship is complete. I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but the way a lot of people talk about marriage really irks me, as if there is some actual innate difference that makes marriage better than just being in a relationship, and if you're not married then you're not on the same level as people who are, or your relationship is somehow not as valid, which is just blatantly untrue.

As far as kids go, I decided many years ago that I didn't want any, and I still feel the same. Kids are great, but I don't want any of my own. There are tons of actual reasons, but at the end of the day, it comes down to the way my brain is "wired" (for lack of a better term). I just don't have that natural urge or instinct to have children. Like I said, there are other factors as well. I love kids, and I'm sorry, I'm sympathetic to parents who are dealing with this, I really am, but every time I'm in a store and I hear some kid screaming his/her head off, I thank my lucky stars I don't have any of my own. It's just not something I want to deal with. Just as an example.

But, like I said, at the end of the day, if I really wanted children, if I had that drive, then I don't think the negative aspects of raising a child would prevent me from doing so. It's really the inherent lack of an interest in having children that stops me, not any other reason.

This. Absolutely and entirely this.

Would you like to... uh.. not marry me?

[halloween]

I've been having one too many debates with people about my decision on childbearing in the future. Yes I'm young, that's why i don't want you bringing it up because i'm in the frame of mind that i DON'T WANT CHILDREN! There's no use telling me "that might change." I KNOW, BUT UNTIL THAT CHANGES, STFU AND LEAVE ME ALONE.

Basically, i'm not going to plan my life around having kids, but if i grow older "and change my mind", well i'll deal it with then! I mean i could see it happen since i do enjoy kids on some level and i have been growing a stronger understand of what "family" is to me...who knows. but again until then STOP FUCKING ASKING ME ABOUT IT.

[icklekitty]

I went through this a lot on the old forum - let's see if I can articulate it as well here.

I don't believe in marriage because the concept has lost all meaning. It doesn't celebrate love, it isn't the next level in a relationship. Otherwise gay people would be able to get married and straight people who've had 5 divorces or need a green card/health insurance (see: allegro in the other thread, and I'm sure she won't get mad at this) wouldn't. Marriage is a business contract. It's cold, and it's hard, and it's not something I want to experience. I'd love a wedding, but I can throw a giant narcissistic party whenever I want.

I don't believe in procreation at this point in the human evolutionary cycle. This is a shitty world, I don't think new lives should be brought into it until we have a handle on the existing ones. The world is overpopulated and we're killing the planet - human creation is the primary culprit of this. Millions of children all over the world are crying out for parents - you can't make a mummy through IVF. I think it's wholly dispassionate to create new life instead of looking after these innocent people in need of love. It is therefore not necessary to procreate - to do so is selfish and narcissistic.

I'd love to fall in love for life and I'd love to raise a little girl/boy, but I don't think the above concepts have any relevance to these goals.

[theruiner]

\I have never wanted children that I can remember. I doesn't mean I dislike kids, though I have no desire to take care of them, but I am not willing on any level to devote 18 years of my life to raising another human. And yes, that is selfish. But guess what? So is choosing to have your own kid instead of adopting. It is. And that's fine. But it is. We make selfish choices every day.

Totally agreed.

And being selfish isn't always a bad thing. People throw that word around as if it's always a negative. If you want to go to college to become a doctor but your parents always had their hearts set on you becoming a lawyer, guess what? You're being selfish. But is anyone going to look down on you for choosing your own path in life and doing what makes you happy? People are ok with that example, but when you say, "Well, kids just aren't for me," suddenly it's, "Oh my GOD, you are so selfish, get over yourself." How is it any different?

And it's SO NOT OKAY to tell me I'll "change my mind" or even to say that I might. You might change your mind about being a Christian or being gay.

I'm not crazy about people telling me that, either. It's not so much them raising the possibility of me changing my mind, since that's stating the obvious. If they meant it in an innocuous way, where they're just pointing it out, ok. Yes, it's possible I could change my mind. But people generally don't seem to mean it as an innocent, non-judgmental statement. The subtext a lot of times is, "No, no, no, you will change your mind, when you get a little older and a little wiser, you'll see the error of your ways." And that kind of crap drives me up a wall. It's so presumptuous. It's the same sort of thinking as, "Well, when you're older and you have a little bit of money, you'll become a Republican." Um, no. As if your point of view and decision isn't based on anything solid, or that it isn't valid, and it's just a matter of time before you come to your senses.

[mixxy]

I have never wanted children that I can remember. I doesn't mean I dislike kids, though I have no desire to take care of them, but I am not willing on any level to devote 18 years of my life to raising another human. And yes, that is selfish. But guess what? So is choosing to have your own kid instead of adopting. It is. And that's fine. But it is. We make selfish choices every day. I think having a child instead of adopting isn't ideal, but it's not my choice, I'm not having children, so do what you want and good for you. I think having multiple children instead of adopting is kind of shitty.

I'm so glad you said this, because I feel exactly the same way. It boggles my mind how people cannot perceive that having multiple children is just as selfish as choosing not to have any.

Also, it's not about not liking children - well, not for me anyway. I'm a teacher; it goes without saying that I like children, but raising them and devoting your life to them (which I think you have to do to be a good parent) is an entirely different thing. I think of my life now, the freedom I have to do what I want when I want, whether that be something major like travel or something minor like watch an entire television show uninterrupted after a long day, I cannot imagine giving that up. I also think I'm just not that "motherly" which I know is a stereotypical thought, but I just don't think I'd get out of raising children what many women get.

That said, I also believe that there are many women who do not truly question their desire to have children. Yes, many of us live in societies where women have a choice, but I still see many women just falling into the role, so to speak. I don't necessarily mean unintended pregnancies, but I mean just assuming that having a child is just what people do after a certain stage of their relationship. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a lot of self-reflection on the part of women on whether it's what they really want - I think there is still a lot of expectation there for us to bear children. I know I still get the questions from people.

Oh and one last thing, I despise the Duggars and their 19 children for encouraging such selfish reproduction in a world overpopulated and with so many children already in need of families.

[Magtig]

I was thinking about one of those questions the other day, the whole "but if you don't poop babiez the humans will end!" Well guess what, if we have too many babies the same thing will happen. You see it in nature all the time when a species overpopulates for whatever reason, and then has a massive die off.

Babies cause massacres. You heard it here first.

[Elke]

Also, it's not about not liking children - well, not for me anyway. I'm a teacher; it goes without saying that I like children, but raising them and devoting your life to them (which I think you have to do to be a good parent) is an entirely different thing. I think of my life now, the freedom I have to do what I want when I want, whether that be something major like travel or something minor like watch an entire television show uninterrupted after a long day, I cannot imagine giving that up. I also think I'm just not that "motherly" which I know is a stereotypical thought, but I just don't think I'd get out of raising children what many women get.

This. I know a couple of women who work in education and made this deal: as long as they're working with kids or (in my case) unruly teenagers, they're not getting kids of their own.

Also, I'd think I'd be a really crap mother. So it would be rather unfair to do that to someone.

[Elke]

I'm singularly unpleasant to live with, very set in my routines and incredibly demanding. So I'm not holding my breath waiting for someone to 'complete me'. I'm pretty happy by myself.

And I hate kids. With a fiery burning passion. They only get sort of fun from around 6 and upwards, and only for a limited amount of time. And really: if I can't care for a fish or a potted plant without freaking out about it 24/7 and it dying on me regardless, how am I gonna be with a kid, huh? Bad idea.

So yeah, I'm one of those selfish 'I don't want to change my life for another person' people. That said: I deal with kids five days a week, seven hours a day, and I love them dearly. So I do contribute to the continued welbeing of the species. Just not by spreading my own defective gene set.

[Alexandros]

What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.

[Lessthanzero]

ooh excellent thread

I travel a lot and need to be free to roam. Everyone I know who is married and/or has kids just ends up bitching about what a burden it is. Scares the shit out of me

there's too many people in this world to settle on just one person for the rest of your life. Like these kids getting married at 18, 19, and 20. How the fuck do you know you've found the one you want to be with for the rest of your life at that age?

I've never been one to adhere to the "proximity relationship" thing either. Just because I live in one town doesn't mean my dream partner isn't living somewhere else entirely

[botley]

What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.

Define "essential". Marriage is supposed to be a union of two people, after all... if they find having another person united to them is essential to what defines who they are, then I'm not going to be terribly interested in them. This is a discussion you should have relatively early in a long-term relationship (within the first year or so) and if they aren't going to budge on their opinion then it's a pretty clear sign there'll be trouble down the road.

[Alexandros]

No one answered me so I'm reposting my question (sorry about that, I won't re-repost it however, I promise), because I'd really like to know what you guys think about a situation like this:

What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.

[Halo Infinity]

No one answered me so I'm reposting my question (sorry about that, I won't re-repost it however, I promise), because I'd really like to know what you guys think about a situation like this:

I think botley answered you, and I suppose I'll try to answer your question as well. Oh, and that's no problem at all. If I was curious, asked a question, and didn't receive any responses, I'd try to bring it up more than once too.

Define "essential". Marriage is supposed to be a union of two people, after all... if they find having another person united to them is essential to what defines who they are, then I'm not going to be terribly interested in them. This is a discussion you should have relatively early in a long-term relationship (within the first year or so) and if they aren't going to budge on their opinion then it's a pretty clear sign there'll be trouble down the road.

As for me, I would try not to bring it up. This also has a lot more to do with the fact that I'm very uncertain about marriage altogether. Even if I had the means to provide for a relationship financially, I wouldn't be prepared for marriage mentally or emotionally even though I have a tendency to be romantic. (Then again, marriage obviously isn't all fun, games and romance.) If people want to get married, I'm okay with that, but not if they wanted to prod other people into marriage.

So in several ways, I'm definitely with botley on this one. The same can also be said about a childfree person dating somebody that wants to eventually become a mother or a father.

[Alexandros]

^^I completely missed botley's answer, don't know how I managed to do that! Sorry, botley.

How about the situation which I'm describing in my other post (#33, I am not requoting!), where it may be a bit more complicated than one person's opinion?

[Tea]

No one answered me so I'm reposting my question (sorry about that, I won't re-repost it however, I promise), because I'd really like to know what you guys think about a situation like this:

I think there's always the chance of compromise, and by that I don't mean totally giving in. If it's the cold and hard legal part that you find gross about marriage, you could do a purely symbolic wedding, involving your loved ones and possibly your religion. That way you both are mentally, ceremonially tied for life- it's really not the state's business anyway, so their thoughts on your relationship shouldn't matter, and why should your partner care about it?

My husband didn't find it essential, but I could tell how much he wanted to go through with it (he even flew out to speak with my parents, since he knew of their disapproval when we started dating), so I wasn't going to tell him no when I wasn't completely negative about marriage, mostly passive.

[theruiner]

Well, I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they posses inside! Give them a sense of pride!

[Magtig]

What would any of you do in case their partner did find marriage essential? The relationship is great and all, yet the other person needs to have that ceremony. What then? That's a legitimate question by the way, I'm not berating you.

I would take the exact same attitude towards it that I do right now: it's just a piece of paper.

[Alexandros]

I was about to talk about this so I'm gonna answer this 2 year old question!

Hah, it's funny you came back to this now, because I'm getting married to the girl in question in a little more than two weeks! It's basically how you said, we've been together for nine years now, so marriage is not really a game-changer for us. And there is also an added benefit: I will be going to Singapore for a PhD as of January, and us being married is the only way she can come and live with me in the campus (which she will). The way things turned out, the decision to marry her proved to be very easy for me (which it wasn't two years back when I posed the question), which in turn was kind of a small revelation. I was like "Of course we'll marry now, I want us to be together over there".

[theimage13]

I'm 26, and currently, not sold on the idea of having kids. I'd always thought "not gonna happen, period," until this year. Then I started to open up to the possibility. Part of the problem is that I just don't have that instant "awwww, isn't that cute" reaction to things that little kids do. And frankly, I think most babies are pretty ugly. But then I think about the fact that they aren't kids forever, and when I'm older, I think I'd like to have a relationship like the one I have with my parents now.

Also, I currently work a job where traveling (literally not being home) 40-48 weeks out of the year isn't unheard of, and the pay isn't all that fantastic either. So...never home, and not making loads of money? Even if I somehow manage to find a woman willing to settle down with someone like me, I can't see how adding a child to the mix would work.

[leo3375]

I'm married but don't have any kids… yet. I've been delaying it because I'm not so sure my husband and I can handle the financial burden of kids (Who looks after them while we're working? If I decide to take a year off to be a stay-at-home-mom, can my husband's income take care of us?) I know my husband wants kids sooner than later but he understands that it will ultimately be my decision.

[NIN64]

My Wife and I have been together for almost 10 years and married for 5. We don't have kids yet for two reasons. First kids are expensive. My Wife and I are financially stable, but the way things are here in the U.S. we're worried that could change any day. We are terrified that as soon as we have a kid one of us might lose our job and we would be fucked. Second The World is kind of a shitty place at the moment. Who are we to bring another life into this mess. Here is the thing that really grinds my gears. When we were first engaged everyone kept asking us the same thing. "You're too young to get married; are you pregnant?" Now that we have been married for a while we keep getting asked a new question. "Married five years, and no kids; is everything okay between you two?" Seriously, I will lose my shit next time someone asks that...

[Halo Infinity]

I actually don't mind married couples and parents as long as they don't criticize and condemn others just because they don't want to have children or get married. However, the married couples and parents that actually go out of their way to make an attempt ridicule and vilify people that are childfree claim that anybody that's childfree and unmarried doesn't really know anything about love, and they certainly rub it in when they talk about how they're at a higher level love. That is, well, until they get divorced or end up with miserable children that hate them. And let's face it, not all children are pleasant. Some children are just downright obnoxious, arrogant and cruel. Assholes and ingrates come in all ages. That's why I just don't buy the whole idea that children are blessings. A beneficial end-product is more of a blessing from my perspective.

I'm sure most of you have been subject to the following questions/comments as well. I know I certainly have. Even if you don't flat-out reveal that you don't want to have children, they act like it's a fluke of nature with in you. As for the questions/comments, here they are. (I just filled in some responses that might be useful. You could make up your own responses if you'd like. "Childfree Bingo" is sometimes fun.)

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?

(To this I say, children are not a pension plan. Some children might resent you for that when they become adults, and not all children remain close to their parents. Some of them just drift apart, especially by the time they're middle-aged.)

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?

(That's not always a guarantee. And well, that idea sort of creeps me out. I would not want another me. I have too many flaws, and I wouldn't want to spread them. If contraception fails, I'd hope for that child to be the complete opposite of me.)

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?

(This bothered me because a true legacy in my opinion is not putting other human beings into this world, when you, yourself, have a more than enough problems of your own to deal with. Besides, just because you're a genius doesn't mean that your child will become one too. See number 2.)

4. What if you fall in love?

(I don't know. What part of "don't want" do you deliberate chose to ignore and/or misunderstand?)

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?

(I could say the same about you.)

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?

(I'm sure there's more to life than procreation.)

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.

(So what? If I'm dead, I wouldn't be able to care about that now would I? And stop worrying, there's far more than enough people to go around, and you should be thankful that there aren't more people like me in the first place.)

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?

(Why didn't you want to become an astronaut, a soldier, a lawyer or a surgeon? Oh yeah, that's right. Those aren't the jobs for you, just like how having children and parenthood aren't the jobs for me either.)

9. When are you going to have children?

(When will you stop being so nosy?)

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree.

(Yeah, obviously, but an existent childfree person would have to be subject to the arguments you bring up.)

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.

That. Is. Not. A. Valid. Reason. To. Make. More. Humans.

I think I went to town with this long enough, and I'm sure there's far more questions for "Childfree Bingo". You can find most of them here.

http://www.happilychildfree.com/

And for some comic relief, here's a joke I found on Google. I'll make sure to paste it in bold and blue letters. I have no idea who coined it.

A husband and wife are waiting at the bus stop with their nine children. A blind man joins them after a few minutes. When the bus arrives, they find it overloaded and only the wife and the nine kids are able to fit onto the bus. So the husband and the blind man decide to walk. After a while, the husband gets irritated by the ticking of the stick of the blind man as he taps it on the sidewalk, and says to him, "Why don't you put a piece of rubber at the end of your stick? That ticking sound is driving me crazy." The blind man replies, "If you would've put a rubber at the end of YOUR stick, we'd be riding the bus ... so shut the hell up."

And for the record, I wouldn't dislike children for just being children. That's just ageist and wrong. However, I only like or dislike them based on their personalities in the same way I'd regard a teenager or an adult.

[icklekitty]

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?

The woman who raised me had no children and I loved her until her dying breath and beyond.

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?

No, I'm not a narcissistic cunt

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?

No, I'm not a narcissistic cunt

4. What if you fall in love?

Then I fall in love. Point?

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?

No, you are. How about those children crying out for parents while you shit out a kid?

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?

Because I'm not a narcissistic cunt.

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.

Good.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?

I do, I just don't need to vaginally excrete a version of myself.

9. When are you going to have children?

When I am fit for children to depend on me.

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree?

Yep. I wouldn't really mind if I never existed or my parents never existed. One of them is the product of incest and none of us changed the world.

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.

So go forth and pedophilia.

Ok, that was quite blunt, but I don't not believe any of it.

You guys are totally one of the best couples ever.

Literally the objective truth. <3

[theimage13]

Okay, I got bored and decided I'd play along.

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?

I'll worry about that IF I get old. As it is, I sure as hell won't be taking care of my parents when they get old - I love them dearly, but I'll never be able to afford it financially. And who's to say my kids won't hate me?

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?

I've already been a younger version of myself. I was THERE. I don't need to see it again - I was kind of a pain in the ass more often than I'd like to admit. Why subject myself to that all over again?

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?

Legacy? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm a nameless blue collar worker. When I'm done, I'm done.

4. What if you fall in love?

I'll keep my mind open, but I don't see this happening until I'm at an age where my partner would have already realized that she doesn't want kids, either.

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?

You just asked me if I wanted to raise a "little version" of myself. Who's selfish, again?

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?

The love of a woman...a career that makes you glad to be alive...hobbies...friends...

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.

And the human race will quickly drain every finite resource on the planet if they all had the same views as you. But thankfully, not everyone thinks the way I do.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?

Lack of a financial means to provide for a child (or two). Lack of patience with over-active kids. An appreciation for a good night's sleep, and being able to leave the house when I feel like it.

9. When are you going to have children?

When I win the lottery. Maybe.

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree.

Duh. But they did, so what's your point?

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.

Are you going to be saying that when they take all of your money, pour paint over your brand new TV, total your car, and move away at 18 and vow never to speak to you again?

Yeah...kids? No.

[leo3375]

Okay, I'll bite.

1. Who's going to take care of you when you get old?
I'll figure it out as I get closer to that point.

2. Don't you want a smaller/younger version of yourself?
Not right now. And I would want the kid to be his/her own person, not a Mini-Me.

3. Why wouldn't you want to continue your legacy?
Simply put, I'm not sure I can afford it right now.

4. What if you fall in love?
I'm already married. I'm in love. I just choose not to procreate at this point in time.

5. Why are you being so selfish? / Aren't you being very selfish?
I need to take care of myself before I can take care of another person.

6. How could your life not be meaningless without children?
There's more to life than having children. Helping the needy, rescuing injured animals, giving of yourself add tremendous meaning to life.

7. The human race would die out if everybody had the same views as you.
This is a stupid straw man argument. Humanity wouldn't die out, but it certainly wouldn't increase in population like it is right now.

8. Why don't you want to become a parent?
It's not that I don't want to become a parent. It's that I don't think I can handle the financial side of having children right now.

9. When are you going to have children?
When I'm ready. And that's none of your business.

10. You and your parents wouldn't be here if they were childfree.
Again with the stupid straw man argument. I'm here, aren't I?

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.
Not gonna disagree, but they aren't beautiful when they misbehave and parents are too scared to discipline them.

And a note to parents: don't be afraid to discipline your child in public. This does not mean you have the right to physically abuse or yell things at your child that would make even the saltiest of sailors blush. It means that you should deal with your child's tantrums before they turn into meltdowns. Keep your child under control and don't let them run off. Make them clean up any messes they make. Make them return anything they took without paying for and then apologize for taking it.

[think i'm a fire engine]

I thought it was gonna go something like this.

11. Oh yeah? But children are beautiful.
What are you, some kind of a pervert?

[frankie teardrop]

the correct response to disarm someone asking the ever persistent "so when ya gonna have kids" question is to grimace and say:

"we're unable to conceive"

works every time, especially if one of you starts quietly sobbing.

[Halo Infinity]

the correct response to disarm someone asking the ever persistent "so when ya gonna have kids" question is to grimace and say:

"we're unable to conceive"

works every time, especially if one of you starts quietly sobbing.

Awesome. Now that's a good one.