2016 Presidential Election

[Harry Seaward]

this changes nothing. there's no way to quantify in hard numbers how many people were swayed by this intervention.

What? How is that remotely relevant?

(Spoiler: It's not.)

The fact of the matter is that it happened. It doesn't matter if it swayed one single vote or not. That is not the point here. An adversarial foreign state actively meddled with our election. Their reasoning or the outcome is irrelevant.

[cashpiles (closed)]

What? How is that remotely relevant?

(Spoiler: It's not.)

The fact of the matter is that it happened. It doesn't matter if it swayed one single vote or not. That is not the point here. An adversarial foreign state actively meddled with our election. Their reasoning or the outcome is irrelevant.

I'm just concerned that the election result would be overturned because of this.

[Khrz]

I'm just concerned that the election result would be overturned because of this.

Absolutely no way.

[Harry Seaward]

I'm just concerned that the election result would be overturned because of this.

Well I think the reasonable courses of actions to take would be:

- Temporarily delay the electoral vote
- Have an investigation involving top bipartisan Congressional leadership
- Present the result of this investigation along with the CIA's evidence to all of the electors
- Present the electors with the details of Trump's hidden financial information and other obvious conflicts of interest
- Let the electors decide how to vote based off of all of this information combined

Like I said earlier today, one of the main purposes of the electoral college is to deny the Presidency to somebody that wins the election, but is openly corrupt, controlled by a foreign nation, or an insane fascist dictatorial demagogue. The electoral college was created specifically to prevent somebody like Donald Trump becoming the President. They exist to sweep up the mess when America makes an absolute fuck up. They are the final "do-over" button.

So I hope they take into consideration all available data points and perform their Constitutional duties. I hope they put country before party. All it will take is 38 people.

[Khrz]

Unfortunately, a LOT of momentum is behind getting the EC to flip their vote because of the Intel discovered. That's why politicians are asking to show a non-public Intel report to the EC.

Oh yeah, that's gonna go well. Any person replacing Trump will automatically be considered a Clinton puppet, the republicans will lose all credibility, the democrats will be dishonored, and the people who expected a Trump stewardship will lose their fucking mind. Good times ahead...

Anyway, if there was actual meddling in order to destabilise the credibility of the USA... Congratulations on a job well done. This thing's a fucking mess from a to z.

[allegro]

Yes, they agree with an Intel assessment. The FBI said they wouldn't have enough evidence from a legal perspective though.

If this Intel were truly cut and dry "evidence" and "proof" as you think it is, what is the point of Obama ordering an investigation? What more is there to understand if it's been "decided" as you say? What do you know that Obama doesn't?

Using it as leverage for something else. Like, doing something about this shit. Or continuing sanctions (the spankings will continue).

The bottom line is that the CIA informs our government as to whom we can trust and cannot trust; right now, the incoming POTUS says he doesn't believe that intel, because he cares mostly about business and financial endeavors. So, there's the rub. Of course, the other rub is that the incoming POTUS was effectively PUT THERE by the guy we allegedly "cannot trust" and I suspect, with more intel, we might be able to find that the incoming POTUS had something to do with it. Now THAT would be fun, wouldn't it?

Methinks this is only the beginning.

We are living in INTERESTING times.

[allegro]

I'm not talking about Bernie bros, I'm talking about the Bushes, Romney, McCain, Lindsay Graham, the lists and lists of prominent Republicans and retired generals and intelligence community and finance people who refused to endorse Trump who we were supposed to believe would help Hillary win.

Yeah, well, I never thought that math would work, that logic made no sense to me.

The only reason McCain refused to endorse Trump, other than he hates Trump, is that McCain was up for re-election and easily could have lost. But NONE of those people could have changed the mind of people who were convinced that Trump was their man; and, even if they convinced people that Trump WASN'T the right person, the other choice (Clinton) was NEVER going to be the choice for most Republicans, EVER.

After the election, I got together with several friends here and there, and I just never realized how many people hate "THE CLINTONS." BOTH of them. Like they are both The Devil who took over the Democratic party and fucked it all up; one old friend of mine, who'd been a hardline Democrat for forty fucking years, said she hated "THE CLINTONS" so fucking much, she voted for Trump. She's 78-years-old, so whatever, I don't get it. I really don't. But, it is what it is. No McCain, or Graham, or financier, or whatever is gonna talk somebody outa that.

Hillary wasn't running her server. Hillary can't even use a computer, she is known to pretty much solely use her Blackberry. And I mean, really, who the fuck still uses a BLACKBERRY?

The HEAD OF THE CIA fell prey to a phishing scam, dude.

God bless America. Home of the intel incompetent.

@Harry Seaward , what @DigitalChaos is trying to say is that "intelligence" gathered by the CIA is "information" but it's not necessarily hard "evidence" like the kind of evidence that you can use in court to prosecute somebody; there is "information" that indicates that a middle-man / people were used by the Kremlin, at Putin's direction, to do this, to "influence" the election, but that is not the same thing as literally CHANGING the election; there is no hard evidence that the email leaks changed peoples' minds about Clinton, or if they had already made up their minds about Clinton based on other things like Benghazi, the lack of permits for her construction project at her house in Long Island, or just the long-lying hatred of all things Clintons in the Rust Belt which lost her those Electoral Votes (remember, she won the popular vote); her own campaign's negligence in not focusing on the Rust Belt or Swing States is where she really "lost." Had she lost the popular vote by a landslide, maybe we'd really see this "Negative Russian Influence" but we don't see that. She won the popular vote by a landslide. The area where she failed is due to her own failure in strategy.

The electoral vote cannot be delayed. The date is set in stone in the Constitution and in the U.S. Code, for very good reasons.

Yes, Russia should have its pee-pee wacked for trying.

No, the election shouldn't be changed.

Yes, I used to defend the Electoral College; things have changed, I ain't doing that, anymore.

We need a new Federal popular vote system.

[aggroculture]

Here's what the Republicans are up to in North Carolina: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...r-grab/510950/

[allegro]

Here's what the Republicans are up to in North Carolina: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...r-grab/510950/

Yeah, I JUST read that before I came here, ISN'T THAT FUCKING BULLSHIT?! FUCKING SCUMBAGS.

I hope that maybe the incoming Governor can just come in and sign another bill VOIDING the last Governor's law. Call it the "FU Law."

You know what is funny about states like NC is that a SHITLOAD OF YANKEES are moving there from states like New Jersey and Illinois and New York where their property taxes are too high. G and I looked into moving there. Cary, NC (a suburb of Raleigh) is known as "Containment Area for Relocated Yankees." We know a bunch of Air Traffic Controllers from this area who moved to either Charlotte or Raleigh Durham to retire (to get away from property taxes here in Illinois and, if you qualify, you may not have to pay Federal taxes on your pension in NC like we don't here in IL). And the more this happens, the more DEMOCRAT NC is gonna become. This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, LOL.

[Louie_Cypher]

Yeah, well, I never thought that math would work, that logic made no sense to me.

The only reason McCain refused to endorse Trump, other than he hates Trump, is that McCain was up for re-election and easily could have lost. But NONE of those people could have changed the mind of people who were convinced that Trump was their man; and, even if they convinced people that Trump WASN'T the right person, the other choice (Clinton) was NEVER going to be the choice for most Republicans, EVER. you may laugh but in know with cofidence blackberry is the mostsecure smart phone out there

After the election, I got together with several friends here and there, and I just never realized how many people hate "THE CLINTONS." BOTH of them. Like they are both The Devil who took over the Democratic party and fucked it all up; one old friend of mine, who'd been a hardline Democrat for forty fucking years, said she hated "THE CLINTONS" so fucking much, she voted for Trump. She's 78-years-old, so whatever, I don't get it. I really don't. But, it is what it is. No McCain, or Graham, or financier, or whatever is gonna talk somebody outa that.

Hillary wasn't running her server. Hillary can't even use a computer, she is known to pretty much solely use her Blackberry. And I mean, really, who the fuck still uses a BLACKBERRY?

The HEAD OF THE CIA fell prey to a phishing scam, dude.

God bless America. Home of the intel incompetent.

@Harry Seaward, what @DigitalChaos is trying to say is that "intelligence" gathered by the CIA is "information" but it's not necessarily hard "evidence" like the kind of evidence that you can use in court to prosecute somebody; there is "information" that indicates that a middle-man / people were used by the Kremlin, at Putin's direction, to do this, to "influence" the election, but that is not the same thing as literally CHANGING the election; there is no hard evidence that the email leaks changed peoples' minds about Clinton, or if they had already made up their minds about Clinton based on other things like Benghazi, the lack of permits for her construction project at her house in Long Island, or just the long-lying hatred of all things Clintons in the Rust Belt which lost her those Electoral Votes (remember, she won the popular vote); her own campaign's negligence in not focusing on the Rust Belt or Swing States is where she really "lost." Had she lost the popular vote by a landslide, maybe we'd really see this "Negative Russian Influence" but we don't see that. She won the popular vote by a landslide. The area where she failed is due to her own failure in strategy.

The electoral vote cannot be delayed. The date is set in stone in the Constitution and in the U.S. Code, for very good reasons.

Yes, Russia should have its pee-pee wacked for trying.

No, the election shouldn't be changed.

Yes, I used to defend the Electoral College; things have changed, I ain't doing that, anymore.

We need a new Federal popular vote system.

i know that blackberry is the most secure smartphone out there
-louie

[allegro]

i know that blackberry is the most secure smartphone out there
-louie

REALLY?? Hmmmmm, interesting.

[Dra508]

because people like you think intel is factual evidence. Nothing you listed is fact.


The ONLY way intel can be called evidence is if you call it CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE

Plenty has happened in history based on intel, not evidence. Why you parsing bro?

[allegro]

The EC is still a solid system. If you want to fuck around a bit with the balancing they have done between popular vote and per-state vote.. go for it. I really really hate our continual slide to making every goddamned thing a collective national perspective. We are a republic and there is a lot of value in that, if people would comprehend that we are a republic.

The only way abolishing the EC makes sense is if you make state secession a legality in the constitution again. Not allowing secession while taking away the EC is really unfair to the less populated states.

I think you can still allow state's rights but count actual votes vs. electoral votes. There is no real "balance" in the way things are now, anyway, when you look at it. California still has a SHITLOAD more EC votes than Montana, so what difference does it make?

[allegro]

Plenty has happened in history based on intel, not evidence. Why you parsing bro?

Yeah, but that never worked out well, at all. Ever.

[Louie_Cypher]

ever wonder why you never seen a modern president with an iphone or even an ipad?
-louie

[Dra508]

Yeah, but that never worked out well, at all. Ever.

Didn't say it was a good thing, but for all us to be like "where's the evidence" isn't real. It gives me the same feeling when folks say "we won, stop whining" or "what is a fact, really?"

Fascism is on our door step people!

[sick among the pure]

ever wonder why you never seen a modern president with an iphone or even an ipad?
-louie

That would be an iPhone. Either a 5s or a 6, hard to tell from the back in the case it's in.

And yes, I realize that it was part of a joke video.

[Mantra]

i admit it might just be me reading to much into it, but i think the tone of the email is clear. George Soros delineates a course of action of what must be done and then takes the time to mention which people should be appointed to the position of mediator, position which was part of that course of action he first mentioned

Yes. I see that he makes a suggestion that a mediator should be sent in to try and deescalate the tension there before things get worse. And I see that he suggests a variety of different people who might be good choices for that task. What I DON'T see in this email is any evidence that George Soros is the diabolical commander behind the curtain who secretly controls society.

People who have this clear influence over a presidential candidate, if they are to give their take on things they must be part of the cabinet. In this case since its a situation in a foreign country it might seem like a benign thing to do, but if he takes the time to email her about it im pretty sure there are other things that concerns him that he would make sure Hillary be aware of.

Wealthy donors get to donate money, not email people what situation must be addressed and how it must be dealt with.

What exactly is the problem here? That a man sent an email to his friend with his thoughts on what would be a good way to handle a very serious situation? It's a free country. People are free to send each other emails saying/suggesting whatever the fuck they want. People do this all the time, in all walks of life, in all political affiliations. But for some reason, the right has developed this psychotic obsession with some random rich dude. It is totally and completely irrational.

Uh...did you actually listen to this clip? He's describing what it felt like to be a young Jewish teenager living under the Nazis. He says: "It was actually probably the happiest year of my life, that year of German occupation. For me it was a very positive experience. It's a strange thing, because you see, there's incredible suffering around you and in fact you are in considerable danger yourself. But you're 14 years old and you don't believe that it can actually touch you. You have a belief in yourself, your belief in your father. It's a very happy-making, exhilarating experience." He is describing the paradoxical feelings of being a 14-year-old Jewish kid living in Nazi-occupied Budapest, and how despite the danger and suffering around you, you don't believe you'll be hurt because you're just a kid. This is about a million miles away from what you claiming that "the happiest time in his life was when he worked for the nazis in Hungary."

What is wrong with your mind?

[Mantra]

The only way abolishing the EC makes sense is if you make state secession a legality in the constitution again.

I could probably probably live with this.

I was recently thinking that maybe the problem with the United States is that it's just too fucking BIG. The only way to manage a country this huge is through a big, lumbering, convoluted bureaucracy.

[Louie_Cypher]

i still not sold, and stand by my original statement
-louie this from cnet https://www.cnet.com/news/president-...urity-reasons/

[sick among the pure]

i still not sold, and stand by my original statement
-louie this from cnet https://www.cnet.com/news/president-...urity-reasons/

You know that photo was part of a joke video he did... right?

[allegro]

There are times to act based on intel when it would be much better to use evidence. War is filled with examples, many of which came back to bite us. But they are situations where you are forced to gamble. But using intel to override a national election that may very will have operated exactly as designed? Holy fuck... And that's not even considering the internal negative consequences of altering the election. Too many people are forming opinions on this because of their view of Hillary or Trump. The possibility that Russia actually had an impact is just an excuse to move for a last minute reversal of a result they dislike.

Tens of millions of voters actually voted for Trump. It's not like some other country is staging a coup and placing a president that nobody in the country wants. And along those lines, are we going to ignore how much propaganda Hillary's team pushed that fucked with the RNC primaries with the intention of getting Trump to win? That was ok enough to keep the election moving forward? How about the blatant corruption within the DNC that heavily favored Hillary? That's apparently also acceptable enough to keep the election moving forward.

War is a great example of when intel is often totally fucking WRONG when considering cultural communication differences. Us dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan is a good example. But we use intel in war all the time, we use it on the ground CONSTANTLY.

But, yes, unfortunately, all that the Russians did is point out the true faults of the DNC and the Democratic candidate.

If the Russians propagated LIES to fix the election, that would be another thing; but they exposed the truth. And Clinton STILL won the popular vote, by an overwhelming number. Because she won in hugely populated areas but not necessarily in all areas of all states, she lost the electoral election. There is no way we can blame THAT on Russia.

[allegro]

You know that photo was part of a joke video he did... right?

No, he really could not use an iPhone for all 8 years of his Presidency. They barely let him have a Fitbit. He wanted an Apple Watch (he's really into fitness) and they ixnayed that. The President can't have anything that's traceable.

Remember at one time they thought hackers could hack into Dick Cheney's pacemaker? That shit's no joke, they have a built-in modem.

To be fair, though, @Louie_Cypher , that CNET article is from 2014, the iOS has some improvements.

The President can't have a Blackberry, either.

[sick among the pure]

No, he really could not use an iPhone for all 8 years of his Presidency. They barely let him have a Fitbit. He wanted an Apple Watch (he's really into fitness) and they ixnayed that. The President can't have anything that's traceable.

Remember at one time they thought hackers could hack into Dick Cheney's pacemaker? That shit's no joke, they have a built-in modem.

To be fair, though, @Louie_Cypher, that CNET article is from 2014, the iOS has some improvements.

The President can't have a Blackberry, either.

Oh, I know he couldn't. That's why I was pointing out the photo that I posted was from a joke video, which also meant my post was a joke post.

[allegro]

Sorry I didn't see a photo in a post.

Edit: oh wait, shit, now I see it. LOL.

[Mantra]

I remember googling this a few weeks back because I was curious if they were going to take away Trump's phone (and his twitter access). I'm too lazy to look it up again, but I seem to recall that the president is allowed to have some kind of unique phone that's specifically modified for his use and is approved by the secret service, and I think it's super fucking restricted on what it can do. And yes, I do seem to recall that it was a modified blackberry because they said it has the best security, or something like that.

[allegro]

I remember googling this a few weeks back because I was curious if they were going to take away Trump's phone (and his twitter access). I'm too lazy to look it up again, but I seem to recall that the president is allowed to have some kind of unique phone that's specifically modified for his use and is approved by the secret service, and I think it's super fucking restricted on what it can do. And yes, I do seem to recall that it was a modified blackberry because they said it has the best security, or something like that.

SEE THIS HERE

I guess they DID finally let him have a modified Blackberry.

[sick among the pure]

Sorry I didn't see a photo in a post.

Edit: oh wait, shit, now I see it. LOL.

lol, no problem. I just thought, since joking doesn't often translate well online, maybe I was just so burnt out from everything going on right now that I just really started to suck at relaying anything through text anymore.

[Mantra]

SEE THIS HERE

I guess they DID finally let him have a modified Blackberry.

Ha, yeah that's one of the articles I came across.

This part of the article kind of blew my mind: "Blackberry has been in a tailspin since shortly after the Apple iPhone hit the market. Once incredibly popular, the company’s market share has dropped below 1% in the United States and sales of its phones dropped to 900,000 in its most recent quarter, or only slightly more sales that Apple makes per day."

It's weird how stuff like that happens. I remember when Blackberrys were an actual thing, and now it's like a joke about ancient days. I wonder why they crashed so hard.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Ha, yeah that's one of the articles I came across.

This part of the article kind of blew my mind: "Blackberry has been in a tailspin since shortly after the Apple iPhone hit the market. Once incredibly popular, the company’s market share has dropped below 1% in the United States and sales of its phones dropped to 900,000 in its most recent quarter, or only slightly more sales that Apple makes per day."

It's weird how stuff like that happens. I remember when Blackberrys were an actual thing, and now it's like a joke about ancient days. I wonder why they crashed so hard.

I'd say because of the larger touch screens offered by Apple and Android phones, coupled with a more advanced interface that doesn't require a physical keyboard. The proliferation of apps on both systems also helped increase Apple and Android phones' appeal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some popular apps were just never supported on Blackberry phones. Apple also benefited from its immense iPod popularity. Music played a big factor. Apple was able to shift their huge base of iPod customers over to the iPhone. Finally, the sleek and revolutionary design of the iPhone made it seem like any phone with a physical keyboard was yesterday's technology. This is just my take on it. Blackberry decided not to abandon its physical keyboard, and when they did, it was too late.

another factor is the iPhone's lack of a removable back cover to access the battery and other things. To me, back covers cheapen the quality of a device.